Stacking NM & ST - Phoenix Freeshard

Hi,
I suggest to do a little workover for negative maelstrom and static tempest.

It would be only fair to let them work like the twf and don’t let them stack anymore.

Sat 23 Jan 2021 9:12 PM by Jaconelli93

or give runemasters ichor or maelstorm, midgard dont have nearly enough active RA's, as a matter of fact hib has atleast twice as much of every single active RA

Sat 23 Jan 2021 9:18 PM by Solicfear

Sat 23 Jan 2021 9:19 PM by Lollie

The problem has been compounded by the big increase in active ments who have access to both nm and st :/

Sat 23 Jan 2021 9:20 PM by Solicfear

I think that NM and ST needs to be limited to 1 class end of. No need for several classes to have them or are we meant to be blown up every time we enter a tower. Half of the time when that bomb grp comes in they put 6-10 NM and 2 ST's so there is nowhere to move, how on earth are we meant to get out of it???

I mean it's got crazy in the last couple of weeks seeing this.

Sat 23 Jan 2021 9:25 PM by Kwall0311

Good thing they nerfed the earth wiz! ..........

Sat 23 Jan 2021 10:18 PM by CowwoC

NM nor ST are too strong, neither the access to it on several classes. In fact most active ra's are pretty weak or even useless, they only work because you can stack them. They are easy to counter and have a limited range, nobody should worry about it unless you want to take away more tactical components out of the game and turn it more into rambo-rush adventure. Nobody will spec into it(30 points each to max out) if they are not stackable, which will turn both into another dead realm abilities.

Imho.

Sat 23 Jan 2021 11:24 PM by Solicfear

Jaconelli93 wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Jan 2021 9:12 PM
or give runemasters ichor or maelstorm, midgard dont have nearly enough active RA's, as a matter of fact hib has atleast twice as much of every single active RA

They need to balance the RA's in all 3 realms rather than allowing 1 realm to have more than the rest. I think NM/ST need to be changed on classes that aren't popular and right now Hib have the NM/ST on to many OP classes and that in itself needs to be overhauled.

I think 3 way fights are fantastic and I don't mind a couple of RA dumps but to have 6-10 of them go off with an instant wipe is just a shit show. This will become old and people will leave the game because it isn't fun being blown up in seconds when a realm is trying to defend or retake their stuff. There is just no chance of competing if that is happening and something needs to be done!

Hibs can complain all they like being the so called ''underpopulated realm in rvr'' but this shouldn't be the future of RvR!

Sat 23 Jan 2021 11:39 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Solicfear wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Jan 2021 11:24 PM
I think NM/ST need to be changed on classes that aren't popular

So what happens when they move those realm abilities, and the new classes become popular? Are we going to play Musical Realm Abilities for the rest of the server's life?

Sun 24 Jan 2021 12:42 AM by CowwoC

Solicfear wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Jan 2021 11:24 PM
Jaconelli93 wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Jan 2021 9:12 PM
or give runemasters ichor or maelstorm, midgard dont have nearly enough active RA's, as a matter of fact hib has atleast twice as much of every single active RA

They need to balance the RA's in all 3 realms rather than allowing 1 realm to have more than the rest. I think NM/ST need to be changed on classes that aren't popular and right now Hib have the NM/ST on to many OP classes and that in itself needs to be overhauled.

I think 3 way fights are fantastic and I don't mind a couple of RA dumps but to have 6-10 of them go off with an instant wipe is just a shit show. This will become old and people will leave the game because it isn't fun being blown up in seconds when a realm is trying to defend or retake their stuff. There is just no chance of competing if that is happening and something needs to be done!

Hibs can complain all they like being the so called ''underpopulated realm in rvr'' but this shouldn't be the future of RvR!

So is this actually a cry thead about hib? Gottcha.

I hope i don't have to remember you for how long alb made tower defense almost impossible with GTAOE abuse or with necros rushing and planting balls without getting in danger at all because of the pet abuse or which realm actually were benefitting the most from twf stacks. No hard feelings, but to me it seems you complain about those ras, only because one group in hib is actually making them work, same with VP.

Instead of cutting classes down to a boring plain puppet and killing ra's in general, make the other classes more attractive to play with. There would be way more twfs in hib and mid, if warden and bd would be actually fun to play. You would see more NM in mind, if mid were not so focused around melees and more willing to actually run with caster and alb has at least as many NM balls planted all the time as hibs have. And the only realm who always drops several twfs are albs, do they need a nerf? I don't think so, even without the stack they are strong tools because of their range. Cut down NM and ST and everyone will laugh you in the face if you still invest points into it.

Encourage versatile ra specs other than cutting them down to boring percentages. If you want equality in any way, you have to reduce daoc to the point where all 3 realms have the same stats, classes and ra's. Does that sounds fun to you?

btw
Access to ST:
Hib: Champ, Menta
Alb: Friar
Mid: Thane

Access to NM:
Hib: Ani, Ench, Menta
Alb: Cabby, Necro, Sorc, Theurg
Mid: BD, SM

So hib has one class more than mid and alb to use st and alb has one class more to use nm compared to hib and 2 more compared to mid. Easy minded conclusion would be to cut out st and nm from menta and nm from sorc and cabby. Would that balance it out? I don't think so. Why? Because BD and SM are still not nearly as popular to play with as menta, sorc or cabbys are. So mid would still lack on balls and since there are not running many champs, thanes or friars anyway, we rarely would see any st. /slowclap - killed a ra. Same with NM, there are not as much anis or necros out there as you might think of, leaves only ench and theurg with nm and they probably want to have casting speed before NM anyway. /slowclap - dead ra again.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 2:58 AM by Jaconelli93

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 12:42 AM
Solicfear wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Jan 2021 11:24 PM
Jaconelli93 wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Jan 2021 9:12 PM
or give runemasters ichor or maelstorm, midgard dont have nearly enough active RA's, as a matter of fact hib has atleast twice as much of every single active RA

They need to balance the RA's in all 3 realms rather than allowing 1 realm to have more than the rest. I think NM/ST need to be changed on classes that aren't popular and right now Hib have the NM/ST on to many OP classes and that in itself needs to be overhauled.

I think 3 way fights are fantastic and I don't mind a couple of RA dumps but to have 6-10 of them go off with an instant wipe is just a shit show. This will become old and people will leave the game because it isn't fun being blown up in seconds when a realm is trying to defend or retake their stuff. There is just no chance of competing if that is happening and something needs to be done!

Hibs can complain all they like being the so called ''underpopulated realm in rvr'' but this shouldn't be the future of RvR!

So is this actually a cry thead about hib? Gottcha.

I hope i don't have to remember you for how long alb made tower defense almost impossible with GTAOE abuse or with necros rushing and planting balls without getting in danger at all because of the pet abuse or which realm actually were benefitting the most from twf stacks. No hard feelings, but to me it seems you complain about those ras, only because one group in hib is actually making them work, same with VP.

Instead of cutting classes down to a boring plain puppet and killing ra's in general, make the other classes more attractive to play with. There would be way more twfs in hib and mid, if warden and bd would be actually fun to play. You would see more NM in mind, if mid were not so focused around melees and more willing to actually run with caster and alb has at least as many NM balls planted all the time as hibs have. And the only realm who always drops several twfs are albs, do they need a nerf? I don't think so, even without the stack they are strong tools because of their range. Cut down NM and ST and everyone will laugh you in the face if you still invest points into it.

Encourage versatile ra specs other than cutting them down to boring percentages. If you want equality in any way, you have to reduce daoc to the point where all 3 realms have the same stats, classes and ra's. Does that sounds fun to you?

btw
Access to ST:
Hib: Champ, Menta
Alb: Friar
Mid: Thane

Access to NM:
Hib: Ani, Ench, Menta
Alb: Cabby, Necro, Sorc, Theurg
Mid: BD, SM

So hib has one class more than mid and alb to use st and alb has one class more to use nm compared to hib and 2 more compared to mid. Easy minded conclusion would be to cut out st and nm from menta and nm from sorc and cabby. Would that balance it out? I don't think so. Why? Because BD and SM are still not nearly as popular to play with as menta, sorc or cabbys are. So mid would still lack on balls and since there are not running many champs, thanes or friars anyway, we rarely would see any st. /slowclap - killed a ra. Same with NM, there are not as much anis or necros out there as you might think of, leaves only ench and theurg with nm and they probably want to have casting speed before NM anyway. /slowclap - dead ra again.

you forgot that alb has 2 ichor, hib has 3 and midgard has 1. lol.

Edit: easy conclusion would be to add active RA to midgard, not remove if you ask me

just unreal fighting hibs/albs in tower as mid, 10 TWF 25 maelstorms 35 Static tempest, vs 2 ST and 1 TWF lol.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 4:11 AM by CowwoC

Jaconelli93 wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 2:58 AM
you forgot that alb has 2 ichor, hib has 3 and midgard has 1. lol.

Edit: easy conclusion would be to add active RA to midgard, not remove if you ask me

just unreal fighting hibs/albs in tower as mid, 10 TWF 25 maelstorms 35 Static tempest, vs 2 ST and 1 TWF lol.

As i stated before, if you want to even out every realm, they need to simplify it down to exact the same classes, stats and ras for each realm. Midgard was meant to be the melee realm, hibernia the caster realm and albion something in between, that's why you see different approaches in ras and abilities - that's a core design decision made by the devs 20 years ago. Phoenix tends to favour caster in general and mid still refuses to play them for whatever reason.

So the problem with st and nm is not that they are too powerful, the problem is that there is no hard counter to it in a tight tower fight and becaus of the natural class setup of hibs/ albs who actually use them. Additionally people use both in a way, where they simply rush into the tower, drop balls and die. But if you change this to a mechanic where the caster has to be alive so that the balls stay active, nobody will invest into those anymore, because it would be too hard to get them off and survive. I only can see strong 8mans who are able to keep their mates alive with high rr healers in the back, which leaves casuals left behind. Maybe some will still use it as defensive, but this would make those ras only an option for this purpose and this would also lead to even more stationary and dull fights, if the push potential gets cut, since a twf alone will not do anything.

I can't see that mid would play more runis if you would give them nm, but i would not mind if this would happen. I just don't think it solves it in a way this thread is meant to - it's actually a cry to nerf hib from albs, even tho alb is as bad as hib with the ball dropping, since alb has 4 popular classes who actually can use nm and you probably see more friars in a zerg than champions or even thanes(it's just retarding expensive/ hard to temp hybrids/ tanks compared to caster and healer).

Sun 24 Jan 2021 5:49 AM by Anothal

I will open with the fact that the RA's themselves are fine as they are, even when used in conjunction. RA's are intended to build upon the existing skills of the class, not be the end all for a fight. That is why TWF stopped having stacked damage, it is meant to interupt and damage. Not outright win a fight alone. It is when used overlapping the same thing that they become a problem. It is not a matter of just one realm, since all have the same set of ra's. Yes its going to sound like a QQ, thats what happens when something overwhelms without any chance to survive. How is this supposed to be evaded, prevented or stopped? when SoS prevents any form of CC, then ST locks everyone down being an instant cast, and finally 2+ NM proceed to annihilate. While it is possible to purge and then sos, unless everyone does it the exact same instant the layered ST will come into effect and restun without immunity. Which has made any sort of larger scale fighting into a more negative thing. So here is what i would propose.

1. Do as was done with TWF and make the strongest NM hit and only one ST hit.
or
2. Add a cast time to ST and make TWF/ST/NM break SoS at start of cast.
or
3. Add an immunity as suggested by another, between each ST cycle.
or
4. Simply disallow casting of offensive RA's while under the effect of SoS. Similar to how Vanish has a silence effect that prevents combat right after the vanish. This should not prevent the use of class skills, just offensive RA's.

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 12:42 AM
I hope i don't have to remember you for how long alb made tower defense almost impossible with GTAOE abuse or with necros rushing and planting balls without getting in danger at all because of the pet abuse or which realm actually were benefitting the most from twf stacks. No hard feelings, but to me it seems you complain about those ras, only because one group in hib is actually making them work, same with VP.

The same could be said for those that complained about the abuse of GTAOE and Necros. Someone was utilizing the existing mechanics in a way. Even if that wasn't a healthy, for the overall game, use of that mechanic.

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 12:42 AM
Instead of cutting classes down to a boring plain puppet and killing ra's in general, make the other classes more attractive to play with. There would be way more twfs in hib and mid, if warden and bd would be actually fun to play. You would see more NM in mind, if mid were not so focused around melees and more willing to actually run with caster and alb has at least as many NM balls planted all the time as hibs have. And the only realm who always drops several twfs are albs, do they need a nerf? I don't think so, even without the stack they are strong tools because of their range. Cut down NM and ST and everyone will laugh you in the face if you still invest points into it.

Ah so we would see more twf, but twf does not stack like both of these RA's. It did at one point, but that was changed.

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 12:42 AM
Encourage versatile ra specs other than cutting them down to boring percentages. If you want equality in any way, you have to reduce daoc to the point where all 3 realms have the same stats, classes and ra's. Does that sounds fun to you?

btw
Access to ST:
Hib: Champ, Menta
Alb: Friar
Mid: Thane

Access to NM:
Hib: Ani, Ench, Menta
Alb: Cabby, Necro, Sorc, Theurg
Mid: BD, SM

If anything mid could prob use a bit more active ra's.

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 12:42 AM
So hib has one class more than mid and alb to use st and alb has one class more to use nm compared to hib and 2 more compared to mid. Easy minded conclusion would be to cut out st and nm from menta and nm from sorc and cabby. Would that balance it out? I don't think so. Why? Because BD and SM are still not nearly as popular to play with as menta, sorc or cabbys are. So mid would still lack on balls and since there are not running many champs, thanes or friars anyway, we rarely would see any st. /slowclap - killed a ra. Same with NM, there are not as much anis or necros out there as you might think of, leaves only ench and theurg with nm and they probably want to have casting speed before NM anyway. /slowclap - dead ra again.

I agree, mentalist is the odd man out for the ST, but that in of itself isnt necessarily bad. It does add some versatility to the class RA wise. If your going to remove NM i would remove it from the necro as they get NM, ichor and Volcanic pillar. Yes, they aren't played as heavily as cabalist's but there are still quite a few. If your proposing to keep the ST on mentalist why should the champ keep their then? They're underplayed so would be the lesser of two evils from that balancing perspective, but I do not see that mentioned. How would it kill the RA, just because it stops being a winning button? Its purpose is to build upon existing skills, but I dont see too much outside skill use in those fights like pictured by Solic. Just because the popular ra setup doesnt include it doesnt mean its dead, it just means that popular play style doesnt include it. Where is the numbers for these claims that 'not many' and does the the basic info for server and frontier show how many are actually in the zerg, 8man, small and solo. No. If you're not after bland mirrored realms, then why complain when another realm with different classes have the advantage in that one situation. In any case all these bomb groups are doing is farming RP from large groups so they are not hitting much else with this much stacking. What would you suggest, no more keep/tower takes? Only one group on the lord/chieftan/jarl? Then they would just hit where everyone is gathered waiting. Oh wait its been done, hitting when on door or gathering to move out. Nor is it really a waiting group, more often than not it is a group SoS'ing into a tower/keep take. Every class has its advantages and pitfalls, it is overcoming the disadvantages that shows the player. I do not see one positive suggestion to the post just what appears to be a QQ they want to take away my toys. So why dont we take away everyones toys in the same fashion.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 8:59 AM by Solicfear

Then the solution is to stop the NM from stacking.

We need to have fair and balanced fights, right now I'm not seeing it with what happened in those towers. Every fight there was a bomb and impossible to survive it or even get out the way when 2 ST's were put down. Even if I purged I wouldn't of got out the way of it, so it's either they put NM on less classes or they stop stacking them. I agree with some of the posts on here that NM shouldn't be the end result, it should only be an interrupt. What should kill us is players fighting each other and not 1 button that blows a whole bg up. I'm sorry hibs if this will harm your rvr but it's harming other players from rvring. I'm sure if we bombed hibs over and over like you did yesterday I'm sure you would do the same like you said about the Alb GTAOE that now has been nerfed with not being able to GTAOE assist.

It needs to change end of!

Sun 24 Jan 2021 10:16 AM by Runental

As much i agree bomb groups are annoying, i would not overrate it, even i think the access to those abilitys is a bit odd.
You need alot patience as bomb grp, sometimes it can take ages until you find a burning towers while u spam your update button on the /rw..
And even then, it's not 100% guaranteed you have a perfect Inc.
This setup will aswell get rekt by every random 8 man pug, - its not they make 40k/hour.. So aslong it's not the new meta, i see no real problems, even i think the access to NM between realms definitely need some tweaks.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 11:40 AM by Anothal

The problem is not with the bomb groups specifically, although they are the ones using it. It is with the mechanics of the RA's used to do it. Just using 2-3 ST in succession can keep nearly anyone locked down without the ability to escape before dying. While I dont mind dying to a well placed bomb group, but when all it becomes so uncounterable. If the only counter is SoS then what about those groups without SoS in them? While they may lose openfield to a random pug they have to be engaged without sos up in the first place.
As for them finding the zerg. Polemo not usually hard to find or guess at target. Which usually means mids and hibs will be in the area or on the way.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 11:43 AM by Guetzli

Agreed, I think the stacking is ridiculous. I think Anothal made a few very good points, many have been said before but I wasn't aware that these abilities can be cast while SOSing and not interrupt SOS. I think this is a bit ridiculous (even if it's not the root of the problem at all). That doesn't make any sense to me. It's an offensive ability and it should break SOS, end of story.

The other point is that IMO stunlock should not be in the game like this. It's like Solicfear says: the combination of stacking NM and stacking ST just kills all fighting. There is no real counter to this. TWF, ST and NM should give the realm that uses it properly an advantage but it should not outright define most of the fights (in Towers/Keeps). It kills the game, imo.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 12:56 PM by Freedomcall

I personally think NM or ST operating even after the caster is dead is the real issue rather than those stacking.

There are usually 2 options when an enemy is giving damage to me.
1. Move away from the enemy.
2. Kill the enemy so that he is not able to do more damage.

But in current system, option number 2 is locked whenever you see multiple NMs cuz killing the caster doesn't do anything.
There is no choice other than running away to the other floor once you see 2+ NMs in a certain floor.

Everyone knows this, so they just play suicidal in tower/keep.
It doesn't matter if you die right after you place the ball cuz you are rewarded more once you succeed to place the ball.
Being a suicide terrorist has been the best way to play in current tower fights.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 1:09 PM by DJ2000

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 12:56 PM
I personally think NM or ST operating even after the caster is dead is the real issue rather than those stacking.

I don't like the wording in your post, but i do agree for TWF/ST/NM to stop the moment the caster is dead.

It would also doom all "trap-Playstyles" of certain classes/players, for better or worse.

Regardless, if a change would happen or not, it will always be to the detriment of one side/group of players or another.
There is no balance to be achieved here, just a "status quo" that has to be accepted.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 1:54 PM by easytoremember

Solicfear wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Jan 2021 9:18 PM

dunno there's more maelstroms than corpses in that screenshot- it makes a strong case to buff negative maelstrom

Sun 24 Jan 2021 1:57 PM by Vkejai

Dont run into them is the best cure

Sun 24 Jan 2021 3:33 PM by DJ2000

i did post this around half a year ago(?), but someone else did mention/include a nice theme to it. unfortunately i forgot who it was. So if there is any to be had, credit goes to him/her.

2x Midgard: Bonedancer, Spiritmaster
4x Albion: Theurgh, Sorcerer, Necromancer, Cabalist -----------------> 2x Albion: Theurgh, Cabalist
3x Hibernia: Mentalist, Animist, Enchanter ------------------------------> 2x Hibernia: Mentalist, Enchanter

Thornweed Field
1x Midgard: Bonedancer -----------------------------------------------> 1x Midgard: Savage
1x Albion: Reaver
1x Hibernia: Warden ----------------------------------------------------> 1x Hibernia: Valewalker

Volcanic Pillar
1x Midgard: Runemaster
2x Albion: Wizard, Necromancer
1x Hibernia: Eldritch

Ichor of the Deep
1x Midgard: Shaman ---------------------------------------------------> 2x Midgard: Shaman, Runemaster
2x Albion: Sorcerer, Necromancer ------------------------------------> 2x Albion: Friar, Necromancer
3x Hibernia: Valewalker, Eldritch, Animist -----------------------------> 2x Hibernia: Warden, Animist

Static Tempest
1x Midgard: Thane
1x Albion: Friar ---------------------------------------------------------> 1x Albion: Paladin
2x Hibernia: Mentalist, Champion ------------------------------------> 1x Hibernia: Champion

With the aforementioned "ending of ST/TWF/NM" when the caster dies.
Back then the Paladin was not a walking freak show as he is now, with free AotG and VR. So i guess Paladin RA accessibility would have to be touched upon to further this idea.
(not that it matters, it's just a suggestion anyway)

Sun 24 Jan 2021 4:05 PM by CowwoC

The impact of NM and ST is way overblown by people who like to camp towers, that's all. There is almost no use for ST and NM in open field, they are expensive to max out, they don't do max damage right after they are placed and can be avoided by not gathering the group in one spot. You could even drop from the tower and inc from below again and if you can't you are outnumbered by a lot anyway. What's the point of dull long fights in a tower where a whole zerg can't push to the lord because one or two groups alone camp the lord, as it was before people realized the potential of nm and static? NM and ST enable more tactic for both sides, either as offensive or defensive tool. Since they are on a 350 unit radius and pulse, if you cut out that they are stackable, you will never see this ra used again. If this is the goal go ahead and cry louder till devs hear you and take away a tool from casuals(i look at it from casual pov not from an 8man pov, who obviously use the given tools to it's fullest) who actually can use those tools to have a little impact on a fight with 8mans in a camped tower and a bigger if used together with others, either for defending or attacking.

One thing i could see here is overhauling Decimation Trap to a degree that it stops sos suicide maneuver, even tho it undermines the whole purpose of sos. But since nobody uses DT, it's worth a shot. But i guess if this would work out, people would complain about DT because people actually use it and make it work - as always when cry threads pop up about a realm ability.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 8:18 PM by MeatBicycle

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 4:05 PM
NM and ST enable more tactic for both sides, either as offensive or defensive tool.

Where is the tactic in spamming NM+ST on every level of a tower while firing with x catas on the roof? You don't have any options as a defender. Thats even more the case if the defender has less numbers and less field ras like midgard.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 8:32 PM by CowwoC

MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 8:18 PM
CowwoC wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 4:05 PM
NM and ST enable more tactic for both sides, either as offensive or defensive tool.

Where is the tactic in spamming NM+ST on every level of a tower while firing with x catas on the roof? You don't have any options as a defender. Thats even more the case if the defender has less numbers and less field ras like midgard.

As i said before, i don't mind at all if devs give one more class on mid side nm or even static, like runi and take one nm away from alb. Btw you can't spam nm nor st, you either have enough toons who have speced into it or you don't. No one alone can put several nm or st at once. The reason why you see as many alb/ hib balls and not as much in mid is because many mids refuse to run caster in rvr and that's why i don't see more balls on mid side, even if you give runi nm. If you get outnumbered by a lot, then there is no point arguing that x or y ra is too strong, since you got outnumbered. What do you expect, to hold a tower with one group vs a zerg? Ya that's really what phoenix needs to go back to - not.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 10:34 PM by Anothal

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 8:32 PM
As i said before, i don't mind at all if devs give one more class on mid side nm or even static, like runi and take one nm away from alb. Btw you can't spam nm nor st, you either have enough toons who have speced into it or you don't. No one alone can put several nm or st at once. The reason why you see as many alb/ hib balls and not as much in mid is because many mids refuse to run caster in rvr and that's why i don't see more balls on mid side, even if you give runi nm. If you get outnumbered by a lot, then there is no point arguing that x or y ra is too strong, since you got outnumbered. What do you expect, to hold a tower with one group vs a zerg? Ya that's really what phoenix needs to go back to - not.

Where do you get he is even talking about a FG vs Zerg? From what ive seen its usually one group injecting into a ZvZ fight. Fighting fire with fire doesn't really work so well. I wouldn't even have a problem with leaving NM stackable if ST stacks are kept from stacking. 2+ 1L5 or in the case of mentalist 2L0 (other 5 for NM 1) can lock down an area for 15 sec with level 1 ST without any resistance or counter besides everyone in that area SoS'ing away before they can fire off the instant cast ST's. which is made even more difficult if an instant CC is used in conjunction. Since even purging the ST/CC, no resistance is given for ST and the next cycle of ST will put you right back where you were. Include some PBAoE or range AoE dps into this mix and even with good healers hidden away in some safe pocket it get difficult to survive that 15 seconds.

I do like the idea to use DT as a way to counter, but they become they new speedwarp then? Will they just break SoS, but then what is to stop a zerg from putting them all around a keep and making it impossible to get into without an equivalent force to push them back enough? While it will have little impact upon 8 man and small play since it would be pure luck to hit a 250 radius out in open field without some bad luck or well planned placement. In the same facet removing stacking NM/ST would have less impact as you have stated since they aren't heavily utilized by 'casuals' as you call them. If 8man is mostly openfield then you would not be stacking ST/NM in first place since most 'non-casual' will spread and kite unless completely surprised.

What is being argued is the mechanics of it, not the damage being done by a SINGLE NM or ST. Not a FG holding off anything, or camping anything. These things are just showing a mechanism within the game which can be abused.

Mon 25 Jan 2021 7:21 AM by Sepplord

Last time someone used a ST on me i was able to run out before getting stunned, despite being snared though...it doesn't instant stun after being dropped.
Not saying the stacking is fine, it surely is a huge PITA is enclosed spaces...but it doesn't instantly stun. Afaik you have 3seconds after it being dropped before the first stun ticks

Mon 25 Jan 2021 10:10 AM by Lollie

In open field it isnt an issue, but when your trying to defend towers keeps then you can't out run the multiples of st lay down becuase even if you get out of range of one them you get hit by the others, all the while the multipe nm are going off and theres generally no where to go as you'll the roof is generally a no go due to the group that just sos'd past and drop stuff and you certainly cant go downwards.

Mon 25 Jan 2021 7:03 PM by Anothal

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Jan 2021 7:21 AM
Last time someone used a ST on me i was able to run out before getting stunned, despite being snared though...it doesn't instant stun after being dropped.
Not saying the stacking is fine, it surely is a huge PITA is enclosed spaces...but it doesn't instantly stun. Afaik you have 3seconds after it being dropped before the first stun ticks

Problem is that when combined with Ichor or regular CC, as in many cases instant ae CC. Those around the edges might escape in time but anyone near ground zero is usually gone. With a well timed mezz and some surprise even open field it can be done. Which is why i am saying its the mechanics of the RA not the usage.

Mon 25 Jan 2021 9:09 PM by gotwqqd

Anothal wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Jan 2021 7:03 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Jan 2021 7:21 AM
Last time someone used a ST on me i was able to run out before getting stunned, despite being snared though...it doesn't instant stun after being dropped.
Not saying the stacking is fine, it surely is a huge PITA is enclosed spaces...but it doesn't instantly stun. Afaik you have 3seconds after it being dropped before the first stun ticks

Problem is that when combined with Ichor or regular CC, as in many cases instant ae CC. Those around the edges might escape in time but anyone near ground zero is usually gone. With a well timed mezz and some surprise even open field it can be done. Which is why i am saying its the mechanics of the RA not the usage.

Spread out

Mon 25 Jan 2021 11:00 PM by Pingyongyang

Issues:

1. In current environment you would need R8+ BD in every BG group that specs exclusively in TWF / NM / BA to keep up with counter realm

2. Even though BD is a popular Mid class many are only for farming, or small/8, and are not in BG.

3. Even with all this there are usually more BDs in Mid BGs than SMs which is one of the least popular BG classes. Most SMs create a Dark SM to small man with, and now with spirit base damage some more for 8 man.

Suggestions:

1. Give RM the ability to RA in NM.

2. Set the max amount of NMs that can do damage in any 500 radius area to 4. Still enough to seriously hurt a zerg, and also brings in the added strategy of layering groups of NM rather than spamming all at once - similar to TWF strategy of waiting or placing in different.

Tue 26 Jan 2021 5:05 AM by CowwoC

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Jan 2021 9:09 PM
Anothal wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Jan 2021 7:03 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Jan 2021 7:21 AM
Last time someone used a ST on me i was able to run out before getting stunned, despite being snared though...it doesn't instant stun after being dropped.
Not saying the stacking is fine, it surely is a huge PITA is enclosed spaces...but it doesn't instantly stun. Afaik you have 3seconds after it being dropped before the first stun ticks

Problem is that when combined with Ichor or regular CC, as in many cases instant ae CC. Those around the edges might escape in time but anyone near ground zero is usually gone. With a well timed mezz and some surprise even open field it can be done. Which is why i am saying its the mechanics of the RA not the usage.
Spread out

Too simple

Mon 1 Feb 2021 2:15 PM by Tsol

The more I think of it, the more logical it starts to look : Simply remove TWF, NM (maybe keep ST) from the Ras