2021 Balance Changes #3 - Phoenix Freeshard

This is a round of a couple minor changes, there are also some changes that will only be active in the arena region for evaluation.

- friar endurance consumption reduction gain per level reduced from 5% to 3% making it end at 19%
- friar hot had it's cast time reduced to 2 seconds and mana cost reduced to major heal levels
- amber simulacrum and underhill compatriot had their hp reduced to normal pet levels
- pets now refresh their combat timer while in any form of cc
- healer celerity range has been increased to 1500

Changes only active in the Arena region for evaluation:
- all casted resist debuffs except albion body debuff have been increased to their previous level (12 -> 15, 24 -> 30, 40 -> 50)
- aom had it's values reduced again to end at 20%

Some explanation:
The friar endurance consumption reduction had a greater than expected effect, this change should reduce it to the expected levels.
The friar hot was pretty much useless and due to the mana cost casting it was kind of actively harmful to the group.
Amber simulacrum and Underhill Compatriot are the only pets that still had bonus hp that was added to some pets back in beta to facilitate pet pull.
Celerity range has been increased as the 1k range is in conflict with the expected positioning of the aug healer making it rarely usable in even fights.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:22 PM by ExcretusMaximus

You might want to explain those debuff changes. I don't even play Albion and I think it's pretty ridiculous to have 83% of debuffs be for one value while the last one is noticeably lower. Disparity in the debuffs isn't how to bring Albion caster groups into line, taking away or modifying their 5-6 pets is how you do it. It's not the debuffs that kill you, it's the ability for the enemy to outnumber you 2:1 in an "even" fight.

EDIT:
Hell, one of the most popular ways to fight Alb groups is to land some CC, collapse on their pets, then reset the fight. If that doesn't tell you right there that pets are the issue, I don't know what does.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:24 PM by Norad

alb lifetap is still 2.5 cast, can be used in combination in moc to give you an offensive+defensive spell so it's quite different than mid and hib caster damage. overall alb caster grps are stronger than hib/mid caster groups also.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:36 PM by Salidry

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:22 PM
You might want to explain those debuff changes. I don't even play Albion and I think it's pretty ridiculous to have 83% of debuffs be for one value while the last one is noticeably lower. Disparity in the debuffs isn't how to bring Albion caster groups into line, taking away or modifying their 5-6 pets is how you do it. It's not the debuffs that kill you, it's the ability for the enemy to outnumber you 2:1 in an "even" fight.

EDIT:
Hell, one of the most popular ways to fight Alb groups is to land some CC, collapse on their pets, then reset the fight. If that doesn't tell you right there that pets are the issue, I don't know what does.

amber pets health has been reduced
pets now refresh their combat timer while in any form of cc

debuff nerf revert, even if its just a test in the arena would also help clear pets faster

Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:41 PM by skipari

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:17 PM
...
- aom had it's values reduced again to end at 20%
...

Physical defense stays untouched?

Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:43 PM by Ele

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:17 PM
Changes only active in the Arena region for evaluation:
- all casted resist debuffs except albion body debuff have been increased to their previous level (12 -> 15, 24 -> 30, 40 -> 50)

I understand the need of changes to the 5 body nuker setup, but is it really necessary to apply a handicap to all other alb setups that include body nukers when compared to caster groups in other realms?

Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:49 PM by Beeblebrox

Friar endurance consumption reduction gain wasn't a problem before it became a chant. Would it be possible to leave it the same for the friar himself? Either that or make it just for the friar as it use to be. Doesn't seem necessary with the changes to Palladin.

Thank you for the changes to friar HOT. I didn't realize I was hurting the party because I use it all the time.

Thank You

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:05 PM by opossum12

I don't understand why we keep seeing alb changes but leaving the theurgist untouched.

On Live, theurgists were banned from drafts, because of how broken the class is.

Back a couple years ago, the Origins project wanted to delete theurgists from the game, acknoledging that the class is broken.

You can deal with a theurgist by playing well. You can shut him down and kill his pets quick. If you look at the theurgist alone, ok he's manageable.

The issue is when you misplay a little bit and let a theurgist free, you are completely overwhelmed in a matter of seconds and it's a huge uphill battle following that. Alb never really has these uphill battles to fight through. You see an animist putting out tanglers? Just pull out of range. You see a BD, just drop the commander in 3 nukes. You get overwhelmed by tanks on inc? Sorry but you need to pan and/or run 2 peelers.

The next alb change should 100% be aimed at the theurg.

1. Pet cast time is a fixed 3 sec cast time (animist, hib's pet spam class, has a 5 sec fixed cast time, seems a reasonable nerf)
2. Pet cast range is 1750, from 2000 (need to bring the theurg in somewhat of a danger zone to csdt his pets, even more since the bard amnesia range nerf)

It's all Alb grouos now, and fighting theurg alb groups as a hib caster is just tiresome, not even fun.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:07 PM by Ele

Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:24 PM
alb lifetap is still 2.5 cast, can be used in combination in moc to give you an offensive+defensive spell so it's quite different than mid and hib caster damage. overall alb caster grps are stronger than hib/mid caster groups also.

If MoC+Lifetap is the issue, maybe try to implement a 12,5% life return reduction per groupmember if you use MoC? This way you could get rid of the defensive aspect, and the recent paly changes show that our devs know how to code such a thing.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:08 PM by Sepplord

Can someone explain what the combat timer refresh on pets means?

Does it mean a CCed pet keeps their owner in combat all the time (instead of only ticking them into combat at the end of the CC)?
Or does it mean that pets themselves don't go out of combat while for example snared, and get speed on themselves?

Or something else?

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:12 PM by Sepplord

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:05 PM
I don't understand why we keep seeing alb changes but leaving the theurgist untouched.

On Live, theurgists were banned from drafts, because of how broken the class is.

Back a couple years ago, the Origins project wanted to delete theurgists from the game, acknoledging that the class is broken.

You can deal with a theurgist by playing well. You can shut him down and kill his pets quick. If you look at the theurgist alone, ok he's manageable.

The issue is when you misplay a little bit and let a theurgist free, you are completely overwhelmed in a matter of seconds and it's a huge uphill battle following that. Alb never really has these uphill battles to fight through. You see an animist putting out tanglers? Just pull out of range. You see a BD, just drop the commander in 3 nukes. You get overwhelmed by tanks on inc? Sorry but you need to pan and/or run 2 peelers.

The next alb change should 100% be aimed at the theurg.

1. Pet cast time is a fixed 3 sec cast time (animist, hib's pet spam class, has a 5 sec fixed cast time, seems a reasonable nerf)
2. Pet cast range is 1750, from 2000 (need to bring the theurg in somewhat of a danger zone to csdt his pets, even more since the bard amnesia range nerf)

It's all Alb grouos now, and fighting theurg alb groups as a hib caster is just tiresome, not even fun.

i was always wondering in the early days (of phoenix) why there were so few theurgs...and now suddenly i hear a lot that they are too OP. What changed? Or why was this not discorverd/abused earlier? Or is it maybe not as wild as it can sometimes seem?

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:14 PM by Norad

Theur arent really an issue is why, the current issue with alb tanker grp is more to do with the fact caster dmg is too low so sorc theur tank grps are more common. For alb 2sorc 2cab was more common. Don't think any big nerf needs to happen to theur personally

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:21 PM by Morann

Ele wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:43 PM
I understand the need of changes to the 5 body nuker setup, but is it really necessary to apply a handicap to all other alb setups that include body nukers when compared to caster groups in other realms?

I think Alb caster with peeler, Theu, 2xSorc und Caba is in a good spot but not OP.
As Ele said the 5 body caster setup with moc needs to be nerved.
Ideas are:
- nerving LT when MOCing
- and/or reduce LT-Value with the amount body nukers in the group
- and/or Scale red Debuff with body nukers in Grp: 50% for 2 down to 40% at 5

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:27 PM by Freedomcall

Not sure when devs will stop buffing friar...
At this point, with all these stacked friar changes, I think devs should consider buffing shammy's healing capability as well.

1 friar/1 cleric can pretty much keep a full group alive, and this is similar to 1 warden/1 druid.
Both friar and warden has 1.5x skill points and thus can spec red cure NS very easily.

But 1 shaman/1 healer?
No way, that's never an option.
Most of the shamans can't even spec yellow cure NS.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:36 PM by opossum12

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:27 PM
Not sure when devs will stop buffing friar...
At this point, with all these stacked friar changes, I think devs should consider buffing shammy's healing capability as well.

1 friar/1 cleric can pretty much keep a full group alive, and this is similar to 1 warden/1 druid.
Both friar and warden has 1.5x skill points and thus can spec red cure NS very easily.

But 1 shaman/1 healer?
No way, that's never an option.
Most of the shamans can't even spec yellow cure NS.

Well mid is different, since your aug has the quick cure NS and you run three support.

Since the hib caster meta is getting shifted from Heat train to Energy train, do you look at how you spec the shaman and start dropping the 46 aug 27 cave rest mend spec and go closer to a 42 (or 40) Aug, 33 mend low cave spec and act as a third heal/rupt?

Do you need that red heat resist if your only significant threat was hib caster, which is currently complete garbage?

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:44 PM by opossum12

Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:14 PM
Theur arent really an issue is why, the current issue with alb tanker grp is more to do with the fact caster dmg is too low so sorc theur tank grps are more common. For alb 2sorc 2cab was more common. Don't think any big nerf needs to happen to theur personally

I don't know, the theurgist is a weird spot. I'm not saying with a theurgist an alb group is invincible. What I meant is against lesser groups, that class can ruin their life in 5 seconds.

Would an alb tanker be as strong as it is against all other comps if you didn't run the theurgist (not considering the effect of pbt, haste buff and haste debuff)?

Watching Inter's stream during the arena event (where their alb theurg tanker lost once to an alb caster), on inc, the first question was "is it a caster or tank comp?" and the second one was "do they have a theurg?". I mean they aren't asking if they run 2 casbs, they specifically ask if they run a theurg.

Not sure how running a 4 caster train is an argument that the theurgist isn't a bit too strong. Since the debuff nerf, you can't effectively blap someone unless the supports are completely shut down, and right now that's where alb gets a considerable edge on the other realms. Combine that with the melee damage nerf + HP buff, you can't one round theurgists like in beta/early launch of phx. The theurg isn't an issue when he's spending 50% of the fight kissing the ground.

So instead of making 5,000 other changes to the friar and paladin and all the other classes, just look at the the theurg, make simple nerfs (longer pet cast time and reduce range) and you'll allow hib and mid setups to be way more forgiving to play against a theurg alb group.

Just my opinion.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:51 PM by Freedomcall

Morann wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:21 PM
Ele wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:43 PM
I understand the need of changes to the 5 body nuker setup, but is it really necessary to apply a handicap to all other alb setups that include body nukers when compared to caster groups in other realms?

I think Alb caster with peeler, Theu, 2xSorc und Caba is in a good spot but not OP.
As Ele said the 5 body caster setup with moc needs to be nerved. Ideas are nerving LT when MOCing or reduce LT-Value with the amount body nukers in the group.

I observed that lifetap being critical damage also increases the health return.
What about removing critical amount from health return, so that you aren't healed more if it crits?
It can also affect other LTs such as SM's but I think it could be one of the options because
1. Albs have by far the largest amount of LT casters in caster group
2. It will affect rather higher RRs who specced into higher WP(that are the real issues), and affect less on low RRs.

What do you think?

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:58 PM by Leestomper

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:05 PM
I don't understand why we keep seeing alb changes but leaving the theurgist untouched.

On Live, theurgists were banned from drafts, because of how broken the class is.

Back a couple years ago, the Origins project wanted to delete theurgists from the game, acknoledging that the class is broken.

You can deal with a theurgist by playing well. You can shut him down and kill his pets quick. If you look at the theurgist alone, ok he's manageable.

The issue is when you misplay a little bit and let a theurgist free, you are completely overwhelmed in a matter of seconds and it's a huge uphill battle following that. Alb never really has these uphill battles to fight through. You see an animist putting out tanglers? Just pull out of range. You see a BD, just drop the commander in 3 nukes. You get overwhelmed by tanks on inc? Sorry but you need to pan and/or run 2 peelers.

The next alb change should 100% be aimed at the theurg.

1. Pet cast time is a fixed 3 sec cast time (animist, hib's pet spam class, has a 5 sec fixed cast time, seems a reasonable nerf)
2. Pet cast range is 1750, from 2000 (need to bring the theurg in somewhat of a danger zone to csdt his pets, even more since the bard amnesia range nerf)

It's all Alb grouos now, and fighting theurg alb groups as a hib caster is just tiresome, not even fun.

Live drafts? Interesting.

You can't just nerf classes to fit your own narrative because you cannot compete vs the player. Theurgist is fine.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:58 PM by Sepplord

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:36 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:27 PM
Not sure when devs will stop buffing friar...
At this point, with all these stacked friar changes, I think devs should consider buffing shammy's healing capability as well.

1 friar/1 cleric can pretty much keep a full group alive, and this is similar to 1 warden/1 druid.
Both friar and warden has 1.5x skill points and thus can spec red cure NS very easily.

But 1 shaman/1 healer?
No way, that's never an option.
Most of the shamans can't even spec yellow cure NS.

Well mid is different, since your aug has the quick cure NS and you run three support.

Since the hib caster meta is getting shifted from Heat train to Energy train, do you look at how you spec the shaman and start dropping the 46 aug 27 cave rest mend spec and go closer to a 42 (or 40) Aug, 33 mend low cave spec and act as a third heal/rupt?

Do you need that red heat resist if your only significant threat was hib caster, which is currently complete garbage?

All realms are different i agree...why all realms but midgard need secondary healers that can replace second mainhealer though seems disingenious. I don't think shaman needs similar buffs, but i also don't think other realms need to run without 2mainhealers.
Wardens are strong and viable, yet there are constant claims how boring they are...how is their job boring but a shamans isn't?

Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:06 PM by easytoremember

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:08 PM
Can someone explain what the combat timer refresh on pets means?

Does it mean a CCed pet keeps their owner in combat all the time (instead of only ticking them into combat at the end of the CC)?
Or does it mean that pets themselves don't go out of combat while for example snared, and get speed on themselves?

Or something else?

Previously, rooted and snared pets would run at 100% speed as soon as they spent a few seconds on passive even though the CC was still up. Putting them back into combat restored the slow so refreshing their combat timer should prevent the speed decreases from being nullified

Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:10 PM by mattymc

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:58 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:36 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:27 PM
Not sure when devs will stop buffing friar...
At this point, with all these stacked friar changes, I think devs should consider buffing shammy's healing capability as well.

1 friar/1 cleric can pretty much keep a full group alive, and this is similar to 1 warden/1 druid.
Both friar and warden has 1.5x skill points and thus can spec red cure NS very easily.

But 1 shaman/1 healer?
No way, that's never an option.
Most of the shamans can't even spec yellow cure NS.

Well mid is different, since your aug has the quick cure NS and you run three support.

Since the hib caster meta is getting shifted from Heat train to Energy train, do you look at how you spec the shaman and start dropping the 46 aug 27 cave rest mend spec and go closer to a 42 (or 40) Aug, 33 mend low cave spec and act as a third heal/rupt?

Do you need that red heat resist if your only significant threat was hib caster, which is currently complete garbage?

All realms are different i agree...why all realms but midgard need secondary healers that can replace second mainhealer though seems disingenious. I don't think shaman needs similar buffs, but i also don't think other realms need to run without 2mainhealers.
Wardens are strong and viable, yet there are constant claims how boring they are...how is their job boring but a shamans isn't?

Mid's healers, additionally, are the only class in the game with virtually NO DPS ability <none but someone will point out the can auto swing a hammer --- useless>....a legitimate option as a secondary healer would be nice but has never been implemented; always found it funny that THIS was a line that couldn't be crossed as massive other toys <particularly on live> were handed out to virtually all other classes...

Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:29 PM by Eoril

drood has dps ability ?

healer are the only class with all main CC abilities

stop comparing realm like that it's nonsense

Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:32 PM by Syntax

Stupid to nerf only alb
you are slowly ruining the game custom change by custom change
i really wish uth would reboot with SI and OF

Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:35 PM by Eoril

all casted resist debuffs except albion body debuff have been increased to their previous level (12 -> 15, 24 -> 30, 40 -> 50)

it sounds like a joke

dont nerf debuff but drain delve or drain heal return

Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:36 PM by Sepplord

Eoril wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:29 PM
drood has dps ability ?
healer are the only class with all main CC abilities
stop comparing realm like that it's nonsense

They can specc for a DOT and semi-damaging pet...but yeah, i still agree with your point

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:05 PM by Lollie

Eoril wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:35 PM
all casted resist debuffs except albion body debuff have been increased to their previous level (12 -> 15, 24 -> 30, 40 -> 50)

it sounds like a joke

dont nerf debuff but drain delve or drain heal return

It's only in the arena for testing.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:26 PM by Sagz

Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:24 PM
alb lifetap is still 2.5 cast, can be used in combination in moc to give you an offensive+defensive spell so it's quite different than mid and hib caster damage. overall alb caster grps are stronger than hib/mid caster groups also.

umm so is the SM LT and the Animist LT, they are all that way.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:35 PM by Sagz

Ele wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:43 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:17 PM
Changes only active in the Arena region for evaluation:
- all casted resist debuffs except albion body debuff have been increased to their previous level (12 -> 15, 24 -> 30, 40 -> 50)

I understand the need of changes to the 5 body nuker setup, but is it really necessary to apply a handicap to all other alb setups that include body nukers when compared to caster groups in other realms?

I agree, how many Body/matter sorc or full Matter cabbies waiting for a debuff from the main CC/wizzy who brings nothing else to the table (already have red NS with the matter cab), will you see out there? The fact is, the body debuff is the only real viable debuff for a group.

Mids now have cold and spirit viable
Hibs have heat/energy viable you can even do so far as to say cold too with the eld spec nuke getting debuffed by heat/cold/matter 1 debuff now.
Alb has only body and your fix is to nerf it and not give them a real viable alternative. Someone please tell me the alternate setup that makes sense.

The extra dmg from the LT that was taken away would have been just fine and keep the 50%, they shouldn't get double nerfed.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:41 PM by Sagz

Morann wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:21 PM
Ele wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:43 PM
I understand the need of changes to the 5 body nuker setup, but is it really necessary to apply a handicap to all other alb setups that include body nukers when compared to caster groups in other realms?

I think Alb caster with peeler, Theu, 2xSorc und Caba is in a good spot but not OP.
As Ele said the 5 body caster setup with moc needs to be nerved.
Ideas are:
- nerving LT when MOCing
- and/or reduce LT-Value with the amount body nukers in the group
- and/or Scale red Debuff with body nukers in Grp: 50% for 2 down to 40% at 5

??? Ok, they going to do the same with the SM LT and Animist LT, both are the same and now are debuffed. 2 bombers and a LT hit for 590 590 460 last night, from a rr3 animist haha

Not complaining about the animist damage, but you cant nerf the same spell on 1 realm alone if it is the same spell for the other 2 realms.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:43 PM by Sagz

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:27 PM
Not sure when devs will stop buffing friar...
At this point, with all these stacked friar changes, I think devs should consider buffing shammy's healing capability as well.

1 friar/1 cleric can pretty much keep a full group alive, and this is similar to 1 warden/1 druid.
Both friar and warden has 1.5x skill points and thus can spec red cure NS very easily.

But 1 shaman/1 healer?
No way, that's never an option.
Most of the shamans can't even spec yellow cure NS.

1 warden and 1 druid not the same, Warden does not get a greater heal. The only reason friar/cleric works is the greater heal and the heal proc for a tank group. You have neither on warden and even less with a shammy

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:48 PM by Sepplord

i can understand that it feels unfair to some, but the bodytrain has not been nerfed in this test, that was done in a previous patch
in fact, the AOM nerf is a indirect buff that increases the albion bodytrains damage

Nerfing all realms debuffvalues, then reverting it for two realms is not a double nerf, that's a fallacy

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:48 PM by Sagz

mattymc wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:10 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:58 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:36 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:27 PM
Not sure when devs will stop buffing friar...
At this point, with all these stacked friar changes, I think devs should consider buffing shammy's healing capability as well.

1 friar/1 cleric can pretty much keep a full group alive, and this is similar to 1 warden/1 druid.
Both friar and warden has 1.5x skill points and thus can spec red cure NS very easily.

But 1 shaman/1 healer?
No way, that's never an option.
Most of the shamans can't even spec yellow cure NS.

Well mid is different, since your aug has the quick cure NS and you run three support.

Since the hib caster meta is getting shifted from Heat train to Energy train, do you look at how you spec the shaman and start dropping the 46 aug 27 cave rest mend spec and go closer to a 42 (or 40) Aug, 33 mend low cave spec and act as a third heal/rupt?

Do you need that red heat resist if your only significant threat was hib caster, which is currently complete garbage?

All realms are different i agree...why all realms but midgard need secondary healers that can replace second mainhealer though seems disingenious. I don't think shaman needs similar buffs, but i also don't think other realms need to run without 2mainhealers.
Wardens are strong and viable, yet there are constant claims how boring they are...how is their job boring but a shamans isn't?

Mid's healers, additionally, are the only class in the game with virtually NO DPS ability <none but someone will point out the can auto swing a hammer --- useless>....a legitimate option as a secondary healer would be nice but has never been implemented; always found it funny that THIS was a line that couldn't be crossed as massive other toys <particularly on live> were handed out to virtually all other classes...

What? so you mean to tell me the druid and cleric are far superior offensively? Every try a melee healer? its not as bad as you make it out to be, but you are right, i see so many more smite clerics and solo nature druids so you must be correct.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:51 PM by Sagz

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:48 PM
i can understand that it feels unfair to some, but the bodytrain has not been nerfed in this test, that was done in a previous patch
in fact, the AOM nerf is a indirect buff that increases the albion bodytrains damage

Nerfing all realms debuffvalues, then reverting it for two realms is not a double nerf, that's a fallacy

Its not a double nerf you are correct, but it is a nerf to only 1 realm.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:55 PM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:17 PM
- friar endurance consumption reduction gain per level reduced from 5% to 3% making it end at 19%
- friar hot had it's cast time reduced to 2 seconds and mana cost reduced to major heal levels
- amber simulacrum and underhill compatriot had their hp reduced to normal pet levels
- pets now refresh their combat timer while in any form of cc
- healer celerity range has been increased to 1500

Changes only active in the Arena region for evaluation:
- all casted resist debuffs except albion body debuff have been increased to their previous level (12 -> 15, 24 -> 30, 40 -> 50)
- aom had it's values reduced again to end at 20%

Some explanation:
The friar endurance consumption reduction had a greater than expected effect, this change should reduce it to the expected levels.
The friar hot was pretty much useless and due to the mana cost casting it was kind of actively harmful to the group.
Amber simulacrum and Underhill Compatriot are the only pets that still had bonus hp that was added to some pets back in beta to facilitate pet pull.
Celerity range has been increased as the 1k range is in conflict with the expected positioning of the aug healer making it rarely usable in even fights.

I do like that you guys keep trying things, even if it means to go (partly) back on some decisions. Also, a plus for Event only changes.
Chipping away till an overall better experience is archived may take a while though.
Not much point to argue about every little thing all the time, so I just hope the correct correlations will assuemd/determined.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:02 PM by Norad

Sagz wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:26 PM
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:24 PM
alb lifetap is still 2.5 cast, can be used in combination in moc to give you an offensive+defensive spell so it's quite different than mid and hib caster damage. overall alb caster grps are stronger than hib/mid caster groups also.

umm so is the SM LT and the Animist LT, they are all that way.

animist lifetap is 164delve and SM LT they need to spec for it, so they are quite different than the alb lifetaps. stop being a clown

Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:16 PM by byron

I think that trying to balance the mages will be quite hard, there will be always happy and whining people on every change. Imho the caster setup is too strong vs tank setup but it is not only for one aspect but for a lot of many little things (debuff for high damage, perma sprint for kiting thanks to the potions, a lot of mana thanks to potions, items and RAs, one peeler that can chainsnare the enemies, a lot of pets for interrupts, etc..) but balance all this aspects will be hard if not impossible.
Devs entered in this tunnel so I want to wish them good luck

Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:48 PM by Johny Rousquille

You say :

- "amber simulacrum and underhill compatriot had their hp reduced to normal pet levels"

By saying this you recognize that this is not normal ...

Why is the range of endurance regen on Midgard not the same as on the other royomes? If we have 1500 range for cele why we dont have 1500 for Endo buff ?! it doesn't make sense ...

Wed 20 Jan 2021 5:06 PM by r4gz

Increased range on Celerity is the best decision ever made.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 8:13 PM by inoeth

Johny Rousquille wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:48 PM
You say :

- "amber simulacrum and underhill compatriot had their hp reduced to normal pet levels"

By saying this you recognize that this is not normal ...

Why is the range of endurance regen on Midgard not the same as on the other royomes? If we have 1500 range for cele why we dont have 1500 for Endo buff ?! it doesn't make sense ...

i like how you use royomes instead of realms ;D

Wed 20 Jan 2021 8:30 PM by Sagz

Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:02 PM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 3:26 PM
Norad wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:24 PM
alb lifetap is still 2.5 cast, can be used in combination in moc to give you an offensive+defensive spell so it's quite different than mid and hib caster damage. overall alb caster grps are stronger than hib/mid caster groups also.

umm so is the SM LT and the Animist LT, they are all that way.

animist lifetap is 164delve and SM LT they need to spec for it, so they are quite different than the alb lifetaps. stop being a clown

Clown? really? I was responding to the point of 2.5 second cast, used with moc he did not say anything about delve dmg. But now that you bring it up the 15 delve diff in animist inst that big of a deal especially when coupled with the bomber (highest delve) and the LT both debuffed by the same spell now, and the SM, well every competent SM is Dark, unless of course for PVE.

Should probably read the statement in context.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 8:59 PM by gotwqqd

byron wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:16 PM
I think that trying to balance the mages will be quite hard, there will be always happy and whining people on every change. Imho the caster setup is too strong vs tank setup but it is not only for one aspect but for a lot of many little things (debuff for high damage, perma sprint for kiting thanks to the potions, a lot of mana thanks to potions, items and RAs, one peeler that can chainsnare the enemies, a lot of pets for interrupts, etc..) but balance all this aspects will be hard if not impossible.
Devs entered in this tunnel so I want to wish them good luck

Maybe casting endo cost should get a significant bump

Wed 20 Jan 2021 9:36 PM by Pingyongyang

When Midgard?

Wed 20 Jan 2021 9:43 PM by Pingyongyang

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 1:05 PM
You can deal with a theurgist by playing well. You can shut him down and kill his pets quick. If you look at the theurgist alone, ok he's manageable.

The issue is when you misplay a little bit and let a theurgist free, you are completely overwhelmed in a matter of seconds and it's a huge uphill battle following that. Alb never really has these uphill battles to fight through. You see an animist putting out tanglers? Just pull out of range. You see a BD, just drop the commander in 3 nukes. You get overwhelmed by tanks on inc? Sorry but you need to pan and/or run 2 peelers.

The next alb change should 100% be aimed at the theurg.

1. Pet cast time is a fixed 3 sec cast time (animist, hib's pet spam class, has a 5 sec fixed cast time, seems a reasonable nerf)
2. Pet cast range is 1750, from 2000 (need to bring the theurg in somewhat of a danger zone to csdt his pets, even more since the bard amnesia range nerf)

It's all Alb grouos now, and fighting theurg alb groups as a hib caster is just tiresome, not even fun.

This says it very well. It's not fun to be a in a fight where if one class is free to cast for 10 sec it overwhelms the entire fight. AE CC can be purged, you can pull back if getting nuked. Pet spam on all your support at same time is not a fun fight.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 9:49 PM by stridberg

Rather than shuffle values of debuffs around it would be great to see the, for a lack of a better word, braindead-ness of caster trains tackled rather than their performance when played well. If caster trains could get punished for picking a poor target, similar to tank trains getting punished for mistakingly collapsing on a luri hero, the overall frustration towards debuff trains would be a lot less, but re-nerfing AoM seems to go in the exact opposite direction.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:09 PM by Freedomcall

Johny Rousquille wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:48 PM
Why is the range of endurance regen on Midgard not the same as on the other royomes? If we have 1500 range for cele why we dont have 1500 for Endo buff ?! it doesn't make sense ...

Shaman endurance buff works in 1500 range.
1000 range is when you try to "buff" the person and once you get the buff, it operates within 1500 range.
It is still less compared to 2000 range of bard/paladin though.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 8:59 AM by Cymosxl

Where is the second Ns caster in Midgard?

Thu 21 Jan 2021 9:17 AM by Taniquetil

Cymosxl wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 8:59 AM
Where is the second Ns caster in Midgard?

Same place the classes capable of quad hits can be found in Alb and Hib, or the classes that have a 100% offhand swing rate can be found in Alb and Mid.

Despite what you say, you dont really want all realms to be a mirror match.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 9:41 AM by Lollie

Theres a difference between classes that were designed a certain way and ones that have gotten extra stuff because the devs of a server deemed so.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 10:52 AM by Nunki

Johny Rousquille wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:48 PM
Why is the range of endurance regen on Midgard not the same as on the other royomes? If we have 1500 range for cele why we dont have 1500 for Endo buff ?! it doesn't make sense ...

Did you read this?

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:17 PM
Some explanation:
Celerity range has been increased as the 1k range is in conflict with the expected positioning of the aug healer making it rarely usable in even fights.

If you tell me that the positioning of a Paladin is comparable to the positioning of an AUG Healer your argument might be right, but I doubt that.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 11:15 AM by Centenario

gruenesschaf&Nunki wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 12:17 PM
Some explanation:
Celerity range has been increased as the 1k range is in conflict with the expected positioning of the aug healer making it rarely usable in even fights.

If you tell me that the positioning of a Paladin is comparable to the positioning of an AUG Healer your argument might be right, but I doubt that.

Paladin is endo regen and it has to reach back line.
Aug Healer is Celerity and it has to reach front line.

=> aug healer Celerity range should be the same as paladin endo range.

The paladin is more prone to overextend than the aug healer, since overextending means from the back line.
Which I think explains the difference of 500units range.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 11:31 AM by skipari

in general the endu classes have to get somewhat in front to provide it, either because they are melee like paladin, or since the rupt/cc is limited to 1.5k range. In theory people could run heal/aug shams so i think that is the reason why shamans didn't got 2k in the first place.

Exception is now the heal friar which can comfortable stay at up to 2k without bothering about his position. Iirc the live endu reduction also has only 1.5k range, hope this will get adjusted here to the same actually.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 12:26 PM by Sepplord

skipari wrote: In theory people could run heal/aug shams so i think that is the reason why shamans didn't got 2k in the first place.

But wouldn't that be a reason for HIGHER endurange? Instead of the contrary?
Endu-buff is primarily needed for melee-characters and the Paladin can with much lower risk stay near his melees than shamans/bards can.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 12:47 PM by skipari

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 12:26 PM
skipari wrote: In theory people could run heal/aug shams so i think that is the reason why shamans didn't got 2k in the first place.
But wouldn't that be a reason for HIGHER endurange? Instead of the contrary?
Endu-buff is primarily needed for melee-characters and the Paladin can with much lower risk stay near his melees than shamans/bards can.

Well, you can collapse on an overextended paladin like on all other melee actually. I agree that a defensive/peeler paladin is probably further behind and fairly safe, but i would assume that all hybrids were intended as some kind of offensive support tanks in the beginning.

But yes, you can also just give them all 2k range and most likely nobody would think about it afterwards again.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 12:56 PM by Sepplord

Don't think shamans really need a buff myself, was just confused by the reasoning there...
The main difference i meant is that paladins are surely one of the last targets you want to collapse on, aren't they?
Yeah, if they are completely overextended you can collapse on anything, but outside of that paladins are far too sturdy to be a nice target (and they instantly are at almost fullvalue after a PR+heal, while a shaman dieing leaves the whole group without spec-buffs and endurance)

Thu 21 Jan 2021 1:12 PM by skipari

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 12:56 PM
Don't think shamans really need a buff myself, was just confused by the reasoning there...
The main difference i meant is that paladins are surely one of the last targets you want to collapse on, aren't they?
Yeah, if they are completely overextended you can collapse on anything, but outside of that paladins are far too sturdy to be a nice target (and they instantly are at almost fullvalue after a PR+heal, while a shaman dieing leaves the whole group without spec-buffs and endurance)

Depends, classically a paladin was together with mercs/reavers and set the center of the assist train. Pre endurance regen pots against an alb melee grp it was at least a viable target choice. Unlike melees, casters have the benefit of not really caring what the target actually is since AF/Absorb is completely irrelevant, only thing that changed the ttk was basically the hitpoints (and to some extend aom). With a melee grp it was obviously a bit more pain, but since the paladin works also as front guard tank it often took less time to kill the pala first and then the merc instead the other way around.

But thats all ages ago, with battleguard in toa the paladin took basically the armsman role, later with cele he got back to the frontline and so on. phx has its own changes which removed the paladin basically from the battlefield.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 5:16 PM by mattymc

Eoril wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 2:29 PM
drood has dps ability ?

healer are the only class with all main CC abilities

stop comparing realm like that it's nonsense

Umm without comparison you can not balance --- look at the Duids abilities ---and CC on healers adds to the conversation how? Or, adds to to your point <or lack thereof>, how?

While I would love to see the Devs do effects based balancing and changes ; it is a time consuming and difficult process to learn let alone implement.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 1:21 AM by Sagz

Cymosxl wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 8:59 AM
Where is the second Ns caster in Midgard?

That would be the Warlock...careful what you wish for.....

Fri 22 Jan 2021 3:49 PM by Sagz

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:09 PM
Johny Rousquille wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:48 PM
Why is the range of endurance regen on Midgard not the same as on the other royomes? If we have 1500 range for cele why we dont have 1500 for Endo buff ?! it doesn't make sense ...

Shaman endurance buff works in 1500 range.
1000 range is when you try to "buff" the person and once you get the buff, it operates within 1500 range.
It is still less compared to 2000 range of bard/paladin though.

True but the shaman endo is a hard buff, the Bard/Pally have to turn it on and off at some point, so not really comparable

Fri 22 Jan 2021 6:35 PM by MeatBicycle

Sagz wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 3:49 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:09 PM
Johny Rousquille wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:48 PM
Why is the range of endurance regen on Midgard not the same as on the other royomes? If we have 1500 range for cele why we dont have 1500 for Endo buff ?! it doesn't make sense ...

Shaman endurance buff works in 1500 range.
1000 range is when you try to "buff" the person and once you get the buff, it operates within 1500 range.
It is still less compared to 2000 range of bard/paladin though.

True but the shaman endo is a hard buff, the Bard/Pally have to turn it on and off at some point, so not really comparable

They changed it on pala, so they can turn it on once and can run a second chant beside it, so the endu chant is perma active.