The Shear lack of skill required to play these classes that Spam side stuns and run through you, snare you, strafe

Is this ever going to be addressed at all? The window to landing a side stun needs to be reduced. the penalty for strafing needs to be increased. Something needs to be done. No way shape or form should you be getting side styled and stunned even when you /face a target. And it happens every single time, people actually spec their toons around doing it.

spam a snare style, run through your target spam side styles, GG.. these styles are basically being used as anytime styles and with their high damage and utility and effects its debilitating.

If there was some kind of defense to it other then purge I wouldn't be complaining, but this is an inevitable outcome to every fight your purge is down.

maybe lower the duration of the stuns if anything. or lower their chance to Hit, Or give them HEAVY defense Penalty. Their is options here, and something should be done.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 2:43 PM by Ganaka

IMO, there should be no CC in the first style of any chain.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 2:52 PM by Druth

Make you miss anything 3 secs after straffing and make slam a 5 sec stun, and you suddenly have to play well to land stuns.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 3:08 PM by Dominus

I thought I was the only one watching the game go by while stunned.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 3:15 PM by Druth

As a reaver, slam is gold.

But I'm able to look further than my own class interests, and understand that stuns should not be the norm at the start of every fight.
Landing stun should either be 5 sec, or have to take some skill.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 3:24 PM by Dominus

or at the very least, lower the timer on purge from 30m to 10m.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 3:35 PM by Druth

I would prefer to reward using your skillset, and not mash a few keys.

But whatever achieves the result is fine by me

Tue 9 Oct 2018 4:10 PM by Cadebrennus

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 2:40 PM
Is this ever going to be addressed at all? The window to landing a side stun needs to be reduced. the penalty for strafing needs to be increased. Something needs to be done. No way shape or form should you be getting side styled and stunned even when you /face a target. And it happens every single time, people actually spec their toons around doing it.

spam a snare style, run through your target spam side styles, GG.. these styles are basically being used as anytime styles and with their high damage and utility and effects its debilitating.

If there was some kind of defense to it other then purge I wouldn't be complaining, but this is an inevitable outcome to every fight your purge is down.

maybe lower the duration of the stuns if anything. or lower their chance to Hit, Or give them HEAVY defense Penalty. Their is options here, and something should be done.

There's a slight delay on /face and a slightly longer delay on /stick. If you're using either of those and you get side stunned or another positional style on you then you just got outplayed by a better player.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 5:25 PM by Armsmancer

As opposed to a debuff heat + 9sec baseline stun plus base/spec DD dying before the stun wears off, from 1500 range, requiring tons of skill. At least melee has to get to you. Which is easier to pull off consistently? Yeah.

The amount posts from running to the forums after dying to a different class/archetype to ask their class be nerfed is too damn high.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 6:37 PM by kmark101

Would it be possible to add a cooldown to skills with special effect, so you couldn't spam them? Let's say 1 second or 2 seconds... then you could still land these if you masterfully land them in the right moment (which would be great!) but you wouldn't be able to spam it, so you would need some extra skills and timing to own.

Wed 10 Oct 2018 1:23 AM by Takii

Are y'all new to DAoC or something?

Wed 10 Oct 2018 2:52 PM by poisonclover

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 2:52 PM
Make you miss anything 3 secs after straffing and make slam a 5 sec stun, and you suddenly have to play well to land stuns.

im all for lowering stun duration across the board, but if you do that, characters that reley on shield stuns need their melee adjust aswell, being 6 spec thrust I should not hit for 20 damage less then being 50 spec thrust.

Wed 10 Oct 2018 2:58 PM by poisonclover

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 4:10 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 2:40 PM
Is this ever going to be addressed at all? The window to landing a side stun needs to be reduced. the penalty for strafing needs to be increased. Something needs to be done. No way shape or form should you be getting side styled and stunned even when you /face a target. And it happens every single time, people actually spec their toons around doing it.

spam a snare style, run through your target spam side styles, GG.. these styles are basically being used as anytime styles and with their high damage and utility and effects its debilitating.

If there was some kind of defense to it other then purge I wouldn't be complaining, but this is an inevitable outcome to every fight your purge is down.

maybe lower the duration of the stuns if anything. or lower their chance to Hit, Or give them HEAVY defense Penalty. Their is options here, and something should be done.

There's a slight delay on /face and a slightly longer delay on /stick. If you're using either of those and you get side stunned or another positional style on you then you just got outplayed by a better player.

this is the biggest bullshit I've ever read on here, Outplayed? So by your definition.. there is a slight delay on /face and /stick..
ok so he missed his first attempt. but now since I'm stuck or /face him he should never be able to land it correct? because the delay is over? wrong.. the delay solely exists on the movement of the character, The window to land these side styles is just to big. technically can land them almost behind and almost to the side of the target. Test it. You don't have to be dead lined up like you do for lets say a BACK style or frontal. DW frontal style actually misses a lot because the window to land these is dam small. but yet you can be PA, almost cross body lol.

Don't care what's done in reference to the OP, just something needs to be done. but that's far from being outplayed by a better player. requires next to no skill if you know what your doing. its just as bad saying a INF outplayed someone spamming dragonfang. lol

Wed 10 Oct 2018 3:01 PM by poisonclover

Takii wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Oct 2018 1:23 AM
Are y'all new to DAoC or something?

New? not even close. But they are clearly making changes to this game that never existed. So why not fix one that required people to actually have more then 3 melee styles on their hotbars.. I mean I remember when landing a parry or evade stun during a fight actually gave you an edge and often was the difference in winning/losing a fight.

Wed 10 Oct 2018 5:31 PM by Cadebrennus

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Oct 2018 2:58 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 4:10 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 2:40 PM
Is this ever going to be addressed at all? The window to landing a side stun needs to be reduced. the penalty for strafing needs to be increased. Something needs to be done. No way shape or form should you be getting side styled and stunned even when you /face a target. And it happens every single time, people actually spec their toons around doing it.

spam a snare style, run through your target spam side styles, GG.. these styles are basically being used as anytime styles and with their high damage and utility and effects its debilitating.

If there was some kind of defense to it other then purge I wouldn't be complaining, but this is an inevitable outcome to every fight your purge is down.

maybe lower the duration of the stuns if anything. or lower their chance to Hit, Or give them HEAVY defense Penalty. Their is options here, and something should be done.

There's a slight delay on /face and a slightly longer delay on /stick. If you're using either of those and you get side stunned or another positional style on you then you just got outplayed by a better player.

this is the biggest bullshit I've ever read on here, Outplayed? So by your definition.. there is a slight delay on /face and /stick..
ok so he missed his first attempt. but now since I'm stuck or /face him he should never be able to land it correct? because the delay is over? wrong.. the delay solely exists on the movement of the character, The window to land these side styles is just to big. technically can land them almost behind and almost to the side of the target. Test it. You don't have to be dead lined up like you do for lets say a BACK style or frontal. DW frontal style actually misses a lot because the window to land these is dam small. but yet you can be PA, almost cross body lol.

Don't care what's done in reference to the OP, just something needs to be done. but that's far from being outplayed by a better player. requires next to no skill if you know what your doing. its just as bad saying a INF outplayed someone spamming dragonfang. lol

If the Infiltrator was only doing /stick and spamming Dragonfang against a superior player then he will easily get outplayed.

Thu 11 Oct 2018 9:29 PM by Magesty

I don’t think anyone is going to argue that being able to get side and back styles off when someone is sticking or facing is a good mechanic, especially since the two players are often at different locations on each other’s screens. It would be one thing if what you were seeing in front of you is what is actually happening server-side but it isn’t. Just last night I was dueling with a friend and messing around with pulling off different positionals and we would have times where our characters were standing still and in different locations. I would be behind him on my screen but on his screen I was in front of him and facing him.

The reality is the game code has some flaws in how it handles and communicates locations. Due to this /face and /stick are imperfect. This has always been the case in DAoC, although it seems to be a little bit more of an issue on freeshards. 17 years later most of the player base knows how the mechanics work and have learned how to use them to their advantage. So we have established an unalterable truth: some flaw in DAoC’s code allows for players to pull off positional styles on other players that are /facing or /stuck, and oftentimes it won’t even appear to the player being struck that their opponent is at their side or back.

How do we cope with this as players? The way I see it you have two realistic options. You can either adapt and learn to use & combat (yes, you can proactively avoid the positionals by backpedaling and mouse looking) the imperfections in /stick and /face or you can not do anything and accept that you are going to get abused and be less effective overall. If you choose the latter it will behoove you to play a character that does not rely on melee at all.

Can the devs do something to tighten up the mechanics? This I do not know, but it does seem like the side arc could be made smaller— although personally I find back styles easier to use on stuck opponents anyways. Either way the issue will not go away entirely.

As for whether or not pulling off positionals takes skill: It certainly does. It is something that requires practice to do consistently, especially if you are going to do it with a live swing timer. If you have to practice movement, mechanics and timing to get better at it it takes skill. Very straightforward definition. As far as I know most competent players don’t even use strafe as a means to pull off positionals. It is all about mouselook and abusing your opponents center point.

I don’t like it either, but it is part of the game. Hopefully it can be improved but it will always be there to some extent. In conclusion: Put up or shut up.

Fri 12 Oct 2018 7:51 AM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Oct 2018 5:31 PM
If the Infiltrator was only doing /stick and spamming Dragonfang against a superior player then he will easily get outplayed.

To be honest, that would work against 9 out of 10 enemies with Purge down. Just look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKf694h74AI and see what Dragonfang was back in the days.

With 30 minutes Purge there's just a pretty decent chance that your "superior player" gets outskilled by 9 sec Dragonfang. He might not be the best player, but your level of success with that playstyle will be pretty OK on a 50 Thrust / 50 Dualwield infiltrator.

Fri 12 Oct 2018 12:31 PM by Geek

Don't ever /stick or /face in melee. Just move around and fight. Play defense, and attack at the right moment. As a stealther, that's what I do. If I didn't, I'd make a thread like this too.

Sat 13 Oct 2018 5:39 PM by Armsmancer

Color me surprised it's been a few days and there's just crickets in response to my point before about casted baseline stun/nuke combos. Nothing wrong with that.

Also, this is just a whine post because you're complaining something is too easy, not that it is broken, "Sheer(fixed) lack of skill" well so what? There's a very long list we could all fill up of things in this game that don't require skill. "something must be done" No, I'm sorry to say, nothing has to be done at all. Run-through mechanic has been there since day 1 and exists in every game like this.

Plus who would spam side stuns. There's this thing called an immunity timer, why would I spam that over and over on someone. Just dumb whiney post again without actual substance, full 100% whine ingredients. Gluten + Substance free post!

Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:43 PM by Sepplord

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 5:39 PM
Color me surprised it's been a few days and there's just crickets in response to my point before about casted baseline stun/nuke combos.

Probably because that has nothing to do with the topic?

I agree that OP is presenting his argument really poorly, but that doesn't mean we should completely derail the discussion.

Casted baseline stuns and nuke combos are working as intended.

Being able to sidestyle / backstyle people is not and never has been, it is a sideeffect of how DAOC is coded and lag. /face and /stick commands were supposed to keep enemies from being able to do positionals. And it was also not intended to have people dancing around each other while whacking each other, that's why strafing in combat makes you fumble your attack.

All in all, those arguments are mute anyways, since DEVs aren't trying to replicate a certain timepoint in daoc, but they are trying to create a better DAoC today. So it boils down to what the people, and in the end: the DEVs, prefer (and if they can even fix it).

Imo being able to do that is dumb because it removes the integrety of the whole positionals system. Positionals have higher growthrates/effects because they can not be used anytime.

Tue 16 Oct 2018 5:05 PM by Armsmancer

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:43 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 5:39 PM
Color me surprised it's been a few days and there's just crickets in response to my point before about casted baseline stun/nuke combos.

Probably because that has nothing to do with the topic?

I agree that OP is presenting his argument really poorly, but that doesn't mean we should completely derail the discussion.

Casted baseline stuns and nuke combos are working as intended.

Being able to sidestyle / backstyle people is not and never has been, it is a sideeffect of how DAOC is coded and lag. /face and /stick commands were supposed to keep enemies from being able to do positionals. And it was also not intended to have people dancing around each other while whacking each other, that's why strafing in combat makes you fumble your attack.

All in all, those arguments are mute anyways, since DEVs aren't trying to replicate a certain timepoint in daoc, but they are trying to create a better DAoC today. So it boils down to what the people, and in the end: the DEVs, prefer (and if they can even fix it).

Imo being able to do that is dumb because it removes the integrety of the whole positionals system. Positionals have higher growthrates/effects because they can not be used anytime.

He framed this as a complaint about the skill required to use a mechanic in the game. Everyone has been positional'd-walk-throughed' and also I'm sure most/all have been stun-nuked down. The point I'm bringing up is if something is actually wrong with the existence and current positionals mechanic, then it follows anything that is actually easier than that is also a problem. If driving 100 MPH in a school zone is bad and we ticket that guy but ignore someone going 110 MPH then what does that say about your logic? It says bad things. Pick a metric and remain consistent.

Be real, these complaint posts always hint at something is wrong, and a change needs to be made, they are not just Woe Is Me , sympathize with me posts, they want dev changes here. So, it follows that if the metric is if something should exist or not based on the skill level required to do it, then everything even easier that that (positional styles) also needs changed.

My point is to point out the absurdity with "therefore" logic because it exposes that if we were to 100% agree and make changes, we have outstanding problems in this model because we changed something that has other things above it on the list that would also require the same change to remain consistent.

The rest of your post about what is and is not working as intended requires sourcing because I don't see your name in purdy colors so its just like your opinion man. If I'm wrong please quote me where the Phoenix Devs state that positionals are NOT working as intended as you claim, or concede that came out of your rear end. My posts unless expressly pointed out do not hinge or take into account my personal opinion just objective facts/logic/reasoning to expose poor arguments like his and yours.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 7:31 AM by Sepplord

Please reread following sections of my comment, it seems you did not read them before making your comment.
In written discussions misunderstandings already happen really easily, so please do everyone a favor and at least read comments completely before replying in the future. It will also save YOU time.

All in all, those arguments are mute anyways, since DEVs aren't trying to replicate a certain timepoint in daoc, but they are trying to create a better DAoC today. So it boils down to what the people, and in the end: the DEVs, prefer (and if they can even fix it).

Imo being able to do that is dumb because it removes the integrety of the whole positionals system. Positionals have higher growthrates/effects because they can not be used anytime.

This makes it clear that i was talking about DAOC before, and not the phönix server. And then even adressed that "problem" and acknowledged that all the power is at the devs and their personal decisions. IMO = in my opinion, also pretty clear that i am stating my opinion, i don't know why that is a problem for you though

I can try to influence that decision though by giving logical reasonings about the topic itself, and not strawmanning other problems into the discussion like you are repeatedly doing. This thread is not about baseline stun on hib casters. If you feel the need to talk about those, make a thread about them.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 12:16 AM by depth

I actually enjoy on Pheonix that your character can still style without removing your finger from the strafe key. It always seemed like a really dumb mechanic on Live that you had to stop strafing .1 seconds before your style goes off just to avoid a message about strafing in combat, woo hoo! It looks dumb and feels dumb to have to make some arbitrary stutter step while maneuvering in melee combat.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 5:56 AM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:43 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 5:39 PM
Color me surprised it's been a few days and there's just crickets in response to my point before about casted baseline stun/nuke combos.

Probably because that has nothing to do with the topic?

I agree that OP is presenting his argument really poorly, but that doesn't mean we should completely derail the discussion.

Casted baseline stuns and nuke combos are working as intended.

Being able to sidestyle / backstyle people is not and never has been, it is a sideeffect of how DAOC is coded and lag. /face and /stick commands were supposed to keep enemies from being able to do positionals. And it was also not intended to have people dancing around each other while whacking each other, that's why strafing in combat makes you fumble your attack.

All in all, those arguments are mute anyways, since DEVs aren't trying to replicate a certain timepoint in daoc, but they are trying to create a better DAoC today. So it boils down to what the people, and in the end: the DEVs, prefer (and if they can even fix it).

Imo being able to do that is dumb because it removes the integrety of the whole positionals system. Positionals have higher growthrates/effects because they can not be used anytime.

/face was first implemented as an Archer nerf. Before /face the only way to know what direction an Archer was shooting you from was to look at the arrow sticking out of your character. Before /face Archers were able to drop many classes before they could figure out what direction they were getting killed from.

/stick and /follow were initially implemented for tank trains and groups, respectively.

The bearing that /face and /stick has nothing to do with defeating positional styles. The lag that exists in this game existed long before /face and /stick were implemented and therefore were never considered as factors in a 1v1 "dance". If someone gets outplayed while solely trying to use /stick and /face then it has nothing to do with flaws in the system and everything to do with them.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 7:23 AM by Sepplord

good points, i must admit.

The biggest indicator of intention still stands imo, the message you got when doing it "wrong": you got a message (sorry if i am incorrect with the exact words) akin to "you are moving/strafing in combat and fumble your attack".

Since this isn't trying to be a classic server, but has lots of customizations, i want to stress my personal feelings though. Imo it doesn't make sense to be doing positional styles on enemies that are directly in combat with me and facing my direction. Imo it is a borderline exploit of a technical downside.
My problem is not that i cannot counterplay it, without being able to any stealther/smallman fighting would only have been frustrating. I just never enjoyed it. It also shifts classbalance (but that is a huge different discussion and i don't think going there will be beneficial).

In a similar way you can runthrough a MOC-caster/Quickcaster at the right moment and abort his spell because you are not in view when the spell finishes. For some it is "skill" and yeah, it is harder to pull off than just standing there. But for me it is just not fun and it imbalances the game. When i am looking for an action-RPG i play other games than DAoC.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 1:22 PM by klaggorn

Posts like this are a problem for Phoenix. They welcome community involvement and suggestions, but people take that too far. The game is 18 years old. Quit bitching and stop trying to get everything changed.

Posts I've seen
Change slam to 5 seconds
Nerf dragon fang
Remove bard amnesia or whatever that long ass post was about
Nearsight issues
Remove endo pots so that a stupid pally is viable
Positional complaints
Change stealth
Nerf minstrels
Insert 800 more thoroughly thought of and researched ideas not at all stemming from the fact that you just died to this thing that absolutely needs changing

Uthgard failed because they ignored the community, but post a like this make me understand why they did. The game is what it is. Stop taking to the forums to bitch about every little thing.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 1:38 PM by Sepplord

Why is a discussion and people exchanging thoughts a problem though? Bitching and whining is never a good thing, regardless of the topic. But people giving their opinions is imo still a good thing. If the DEVs workload gets too high they will ignore more or communicate that they will give topics for discussion themselfs etc... to streamline the "workload" that comes with a huge amount of suggestions.

There are custom changes on Phoenix so it is just natural that people will make suggestions for more custom changes and also that some will want a custom change to be changed (the end-pots for example were not in this part of the game originally). This part of the forum isn't hurting phoenix at all, the only way it could hurt if the DEVs give this too much weight and forget that the silent majority is not giving it's opinion here.

The game is what it is. Stop taking to the forums to bitch about every little thing.

This is a bit ironic, considering this forum is what it is and you are bitching to change it

Thu 18 Oct 2018 1:55 PM by relvinian

This may sound negative, apologies in advance im just going to be a little blunt with my opinion. But it is beta, so let's be blunt and fix stuff rather than hold hands and sing songs and let it carry into live.

For solo stealth >tank>caster

That is the deal here if you are a mediocre average type player.

Casters running into stealthers EXPLODE. you are either dead, or almost dead. Then the NS can hit you with an instant and another item instant. Seriously?

Had a 50 shield 44 parry arms vs assassin. He evaded me 1/3 of the time and with all the run through snare nonsense I think I parried him one time. He did as much damage as I did (when I hit). He also ran a blender of crap on me with poisons. Your one chance is to slam him and he doesn't have purge. With purge? NEVER WIN.

Had another fight or two spec with pole. I swear to God I never swung my weapon. Swung it like 2x and he hit me with a blur of crap. I looked back at my log and its all red and me being evaded once, me hitting him once for like 300 something.

To make a long story short-- it is what it is. If you play a solo caster here you will explode. If you play a solo tank here you will die more than not. And if you play a sneak you will most likely fight other sneaks or destroy whatever you fight solo.

Which brings us back to solo-- I pronounce it stealth or dead. Solo here will be 100% complete elite and if you aren't temped to the max, potted to the max, sploiting to the max, you will die.

I think the backlash will be that eventually people will not venture into the rvr area except in zergs. But they will be farmed like baby clubbed seals for the first few months until people figure out the divide between haves and have nots.

Npc buffs could mitigate this some. Fixing run through/straff, could mitigate this some. BTW, also melee dmg seems too high to me. Mob dmg too low, thus pet damage too low--except charmed pets which are higher level. Resist chance seems too high without mof so I think that is another nail in the caster coffin. 18% chance to resist the typical sorc mez? 1 in 5?

Cheers. Doesn't matter. It is what it is.

Also base pets not working on several classes. We about to hit i50 and what we need is making sure that the classes are complete and working as intended before more content, imo.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 8:53 PM by Kralin

IMO, this is how daoc has always been played and it is wrong to make any changes to positionals through sidestepping, running through, backstepping, strafing, etc. Reducing stun durations or adding cooldown timers to these abilities is wrong and changes the fundamentals of the game. It seems absolutely ludicrous to me that people are suggesting that Slam gets reduced to 5 seconds or that side positionals get CD/reuse timers and reduced CC durations.

Really, learn to play with and against these tactics. If you want a reason to have to play like that, consider that from a role-play perspective, it makes sense that people fighting face to face would each try to stab each other in vulnerable parts (side, joints, neck, eyes). You are trying to out-maneuver your opponent and the game is allowing you do play like that.

edited with more examples.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 7:42 AM by Sepplord

IMO, this is how daoc has always been played

"It has always been like that" for me always sounds as a last resort argument.
There are already custom changes, so that argument falls off even more imo.

And bringing RolePlay into it...that argument could also be turned either way.
When was the last time you saw a fight between two people where people were running through each other and attacking each others backs? An occasional attack to the side and back happens in a real fight, but do you know what comes before? An evade, for example by letting an enemy strike/move past you and then attack his back before he turns around. That's what after evade styles are simulating.
Someone in a swordfight evading a blow by leaning far back and opening up his whole defense (like the evade animation ingame) surely isn't in a good position to make a counterattacks, so RP wise it must be symbolic for a different action.

There are good arguments for either side of the discussion, the two you brought up (imo) aren't.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 10:51 AM by Ombrix

So many bas ideas there wow this is insane.

Maybe you can try to improve yourself and avoid it ? Personally i don’t got any trubble with that. Turn your camera with your mouse instead of turn with a key maybe ?

I don’t know how are you playing but something is wrong i can feel it

Fri 19 Oct 2018 11:16 AM by Kaziera

If you dont do, what is neceasary to win, you dont deserve to win.

Except cheating ofc.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 11:44 AM by Sepplord

Ombrix wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 10:51 AM
So many bas ideas there wow this is insane.

Maybe you can try to improve yourself and avoid it ? Personally i don’t got any trubble with that. Turn your camera with your mouse instead of turn with a key maybe ?

I don’t know how are you playing but something is wrong i can feel it

and your post is completely bias free?
Have you even read the concerns?

Many people have stated that they are able to do it, able to avoid, but still do not like it.
This isn't a L2P issue

Fri 19 Oct 2018 11:55 AM by Ombrix

You don’t like it , so it have to be change ?

When you got a ugly baby you don’t like it, but you don’t change , here it’s same

Game is like that , that’s it. Just play.

Slam 9 sec light tank ok this is to powerfull. But people complaining about straffing, angle of side blablabla , man people complain about that till 2002. Ask yourself maybe something is wrong from your side

Fri 19 Oct 2018 12:12 PM by Sepplord

Ombrix wrote: You don’t like it , so it have to be change ?

When you got a ugly baby you don’t like it, but you don’t change , here it’s same

what the actual F***?
Are you really comparing abondoning of a child to stopping to play on phoenix?
... ... ...

Game is like that , that’s it. Just play.

People saying their opinion on the forum is a new concept for you? Or to use your own language:

Forum is like that, that's it. Just read

Slam 9 sec light tank ok this is to powerfull. But people complaining about straffing, angle of side blablabla , man people complain about that till 2002. Ask yourself maybe something is wrong from your side

Lol, so when you agree complaining is fine, but when you disagree everyone else needs STFU and bow to your ignorance. I wasn't even aware that someone could selfown themselves so hard in a single post.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 12:31 PM by Druth

First of all, the argument "It's always been like this" is such a worthless argument in any discussion.
Humans would not have gone very far if that had been our species motto.

In DaoC terms, the game that was launched is very different from the game that was 1.65.
Evolving a game is healthy, to much and you alienate the players, to little and you bore them.

Can/should we fix it?
People do 2 things: Strafe and walk through.

Strafe can be fixed by making even hitting strafe once make you miss next style/spell.
Not even sure if that is the case here, I removed strafe from the "awsd" area because Uthgard punished it hard and I needed the space anyway.
So not sure if you can circle strafe. I would remove the option if you can, although I know how to avoid people doing it from back on Live.

Walk through styling...
I know how to avoid it (unless they come in with speed), but I do also think it is kinda silly.
Just not sure what to do really? There is serverlag, can't be helped.
If you add collision, then I also want /stick /face to not work on enemies. I want a chance at moving to the side of my enemy, without him having immunity because he hit /stick.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 1:44 PM by Kralin

The reason people like myself are mentioning "the game is always like that" isn't because we don't understand there have already been custom changes. It's because if the Phoenix server deviates too much from what we view as "the game", then this isn't even daoc to us anymore and we won't want to play here. We are still trying to hold on to the vision that this should be close to daoc 1.65 circa 2002/2003 in spirit.

Those of you that insist the game mechanics are broken and unrealistic, are partially correct. They are but that's why we say they have always been like that. That's how daoc plays. You can run through people. You can cast magic spells. You can play as a leprechaun (lurikeen). This is a fantasy game on a server that plays mostly as it had at played 17 years ago. Yes there have been QoL and custom changes, but I agree with most of them and worry that changing how the styles work goes too far.

We are telling you guys to adapt and learn to play like that (mouselook, back pedal, strafe, etc) because that's what you need to do to counter your target and do the same back to them. We really disagree that it's a lack of skill to play like that because it actually takes more skill to play well within the world of daoc. If you are still complaining about being stunned too long or stunned every fight, then you shouldn't play daoc! I've been making this case on the forums for 18 years and it's crazy to hear adults Sepplord still advocating for change to how positionals and stuns work.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 2:11 PM by poisonclover

Kralin wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 1:44 PM
The reason people like myself are mentioning "the game is always like that" isn't because we don't understand there have already been custom changes. It's because if the Phoenix server deviates too much from what we view as "the game", then this isn't even daoc to us anymore and we won't want to play here. We are still trying to hold on to the vision that this should be close to daoc 1.65 circa 2002/2003 in spirit.

Those of you that insist the game mechanics are broken and unrealistic, are partially correct. They are but that's why we say they have always been like that. That's how daoc plays. You can run through people. You can cast magic spells. You can play as a leprechaun (lurikeen). This is a fantasy game on a server that plays mostly as it had at played 17 years ago. Yes there have been QoL and custom changes, but I agree with most of them and worry that changing how the styles work goes too far.

We are telling you guys to adapt and learn to play like that (mouselook, back pedal, strafe, etc) because that's what you need to do to counter your target and do the same back to them. We really disagree that it's a lack of skill to play like that because it actually takes more skill to play well within the world of daoc. If you are still complaining about being stunned too long or stunned every fight, then you shouldn't play daoc! I've been making this case on the forums for 18 years and it's crazy to hear adults Sepplord still advocating for change to how positionals and stuns work.

This post.....

I have no issue being stunned of a reactionary or a positional. I have a problem when people come on these forums and pretend that a Postional should be able to be spammed until it lands. The melee system on this server currently comes down to Mouselook skills. and if purge is up. 95% of you clowns abusing these positional stuns gets destroyed when that stun in purged. Its not a matter of skill its a matter of relying on something that should never ever of became the normal in this melee system. Strafing in melee should automatically make you miss 100%. and side postionals need to shrunken to the point where u have to actually be on the side of someone.

AS it stands all you need to do is Snare, style and go to town with your side positional. VWs are the biggest abusers of this in game. they just aren't played much at the moment so no one really cares. but if im not lined up actually behind you my rear style will fail, it should be the same thing for side styles, and its currently not.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 2:32 PM by Druth

Kralin wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 1:44 PM
The reason people like myself are mentioning "the game is always like that" isn't because we don't understand there have already been custom changes. It's because if the Phoenix server deviates too much from what we view as "the game", then this isn't even daoc to us anymore and we won't want to play here. We are still trying to hold on to the vision that this should be close to daoc 1.65 circa 2002/2003 in spirit.

Okay, I understand that and agree.
My beef is also only with people who use it as an absolute argument, and somehow think it can stand alone.

I think people who can "multi-task" in game should be rewarded for it, and when someone kills me who dominate me with skill, my thoughts are focussed on trying to do the same.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 10:15 AM by Druth

Had a fight earlier this morning in OG vs. NS.
He fubbard his perf, and I slammed, he purged. Old story we all know.

Now he was dancing, OMG he was dancing around me to get sidestun off. And I kept dancing away and prevent him. But he was good, one of the best and hardest I've tried to avoid in a looong time.
He DID land it eventually when he was at 20% health, but only because I was a fool to get cornered in milegate so I could not move backwards.

I purged it... and he died.

Morale was that this is that this can be avoided, and that reavers are OP.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 10:21 AM by Joc

You're all ruining my medieval fantasy here.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 11:06 AM by Ombrix

I just wan’t to laugh lil bit

people here complain about skill blablabla. You guys add zerg 8v2 so doesn’t matter skill or not . Why a NS should need a crazy skill to do a side stun, when you run to him 5v1 x)

Mon 22 Oct 2018 1:53 PM by poisonclover

Ombrix wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 11:06 AM
I just wan’t to laugh lil bit people here complain about skill blablabla. You guys add zerg 8v2 so doesn’t matter skill or not . Why a NS should need a crazy skill to do a side stun, when you run to him 5v1 x)

you guys.. check the herald. #fakenews

Mon 22 Oct 2018 1:57 PM by Kaziera

Ombrix wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 11:06 AM
I just wan’t to laugh lil bit people here complain about skill blablabla. You guys add zerg 8v2 so doesn’t matter skill or not . Why a NS should need a crazy skill to do a side stun, when you run to him 5v1 x)

What? They add zergs as 8 ? Or 2? Or zerg 2 as zerg ? Im confused.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:00 PM by poisonclover

Ombrix wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 11:55 AM
You don’t like it , so it have to be change ?

When you got a ugly baby you don’t like it, but you don’t change , here it’s same

Game is like that , that’s it. Just play.

Slam 9 sec light tank ok this is to powerfull. But people complaining about straffing, angle of side blablabla , man people complain about that till 2002. Ask yourself maybe something is wrong from your side

funny when the minstrel is running around with his uber baby, you all cried and it got changed.. go figure..
and yes 9 sec stun on a class specing shield and still doing the DPS they are doing even with sacrificing those points is ridiculous I couldn't agree more.
and saying many people have complained about it since 2002? so its cool to change things that 1. bother you 2. affect your gameplay just not anyone elses right.
move along, we are all fighting to get things fixed and bring things to attention that should of been addressed way back when, and my valid point is, people are using a SIDE style not the way it was meant to be, you can miss a REAR style being just alittle off, but SIDE styles just need a small portion of your side to land. Fix it. and this problem is gone.

And everyone saying use your mouse etc etc... you haven't been diseased and garotted have you.. its basically a root. know what your talking about if you care to comment on the OP. because it is a shear lack of skill and I know it to be a fact, when I purge that side stun and walk away from the fight with 90% health left. IE: people doing it are sub-par skill level at best. And have no idea what to do when their opponent isn't stunned.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:10 PM by Kaziera

Dude wtf. First you go on about positionals and suddenly its garrote dissease. If the enemy ist spamming garrote he deals ZERO dmg. Any melee, even my 2h pally could outdmg a garrote spamming sneak.
I cant tell you anything except: Git gud......

Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:26 PM by poisonclover

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:10 PM
Dude wtf. First you go on about positionals and suddenly its garrote dissease. If the enemy ist spamming garrote he deals ZERO dmg. Any melee, even my 2h pally could outdmg a garrote spamming sneak.
I cant tell you anything except: Git gud......

its purely part of the setup of exposing your opponents side.. it doesn't have to be garrote.. its the snare aspect..

garrote does zero damage? lol achilles follow up with attack speed debuff.. I have a feeling I've walked over your corpse quite a bit. Keep running with your friends, you need them.

I was pointing out that some classes who know what their doing can land these side stuns even easier. with combos like diseased/garrote.

and thanks for pointing out the sole purpose of this thread, people are replacing anytime styles with SIDE styles... its that out of hand and ridiculous.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:32 PM by Kaziera

You are just too lazy to do it yourself. Instead you qq on the forums without offering a viable solutions. Or maybe....... could it be that you are not able to do them at all? Now how sad would that be.....

And no, decreasing the arc or removing side styles is not viable imho

By the way, congrats for defeating a 2h paly.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:36 PM by poisonclover

Fights weren't supposed to have UNLIMITED END.

People cant spam, Slam,DF,SideStyles anything really without worrying about running out of end.

The combat system is the best in any MMO, it was not meant to have every single character and class running around with INFINITE end. and that is the problem in a nutshell.

there is no risk, all reward to smashing buttons.. end cost on styles is longer even looked at. such a huge part of the melee combat system completely negated.

if I missed 2 slams due to being evaded or blocked or parryed or whatever the case… I barely had enough end in those 9 seconds to land anything significant damage wise.

As it stands, the things being added to the game aren't addressing the original things implemented. sprinting during the whole fight without a end buff class, is part of the reason why positional are now easily landed while in a 1v1. was never meant to be a thing at all. I shouldn't have to explain all of this, the only ones complaining the ones using it. clearly...

Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:41 PM by poisonclover

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:32 PM
You are just too lazy to do it yourself. Instead you qq on the forums without offering a viable solutions. Or maybe....... could it be that you are not able to do them at all? Now how sad would that be.....

And no, decreasing the arc or removing side styles is not viable imho

By the way, congrats for defeating a 2h paly.

You're playing a beta. We voice our concerns when something isn't working as intended or feels like its not working as it should be intended.

nobody is QQ ( 1999?)

The viable solution was reducing the arc. that you don't agree with. your whole post is nonsense. go troll elsewhere. if you don't think this is a valid concern, then post so and keep it moving. But by the amount of likes on this OP, I have a feeling I'm not alone on this.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:43 PM by Druth

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:32 PM
And no, decreasing the arc or removing side styles is not viable imho

Why...? Just wondering, because I don't understand why it's not a 90/90/90/90, side already has 180 degree, no clue why it needed more.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 6:02 PM by Kaziera

Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:43 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:32 PM
And no, decreasing the arc or removing side styles is not viable imho

Why...? Just wondering, because I don't understand why it's not a 90/90/90/90, side already has 180 degree, no clue why it needed more.

I have not seen one Single piece of evidence for your above posted values. In fact i will try to test this tomorrow, since i believe they are bogus.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 7:01 PM by Kralin

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 2:41 PM
The viable solution was reducing the arc. that you don't agree with. your whole post is nonsense. go troll elsewhere. if you don't think this is a valid concern, then post so and keep it moving. But by the amount of likes on this OP, I have a feeling I'm not alone on this.

2 likes? And a couple other likes on the first page for ideas you didn't suggest. Not really overwhelming likes in favor of your ideas. From the responses in this whole thread, I surmise that some people don't like the current system and side style arcs, some people do like the current system, and the rest of the people don't care. There's only been about 10 different people responding so there's not as much interest as you imply.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 10:31 PM by Druth

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 6:02 PM
I have not seen one Single piece of evidence for your above posted values. In fact i will try to test this tomorrow, since i believe they are bogus.

Would appreciate that.
I heard that back has 60, front 90, and the two sides each 105 or so. Would be happy to know I was wrong.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 11:23 PM by Cadebrennus

I think the real problem here is that a small percentage of people want combat to work like WoW or ESO where you spam the same few buttons over and over again regardless of position or reaction. I honestly can't recall any whines about positionals in particular until those games were released.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 4:37 PM by poisonclover

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 11:23 PM
I think the real problem here is that a small percentage of people want combat to work like WoW or ESO where you spam the same few buttons over and over again regardless of position or reaction. I honestly can't recall any whines about positionals in particular until those games were released.

no if I use a side style I should be on your side.. not mouse wheeling and strafing to land it.

the side arc is definitely bigger, if you don't believe that you should go experiment, even on the dummies proves it.

Sun 28 Oct 2018 5:34 PM by Cadebrennus

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Oct 2018 4:37 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 11:23 PM
I think the real problem here is that a small percentage of people want combat to work like WoW or ESO where you spam the same few buttons over and over again regardless of position or reaction. I honestly can't recall any whines about positionals in particular until those games were released.

no if I use a side style I should be on your side.. not mouse wheeling and strafing to land it.

the side arc is definitely bigger, if you don't believe that you should go experiment, even on the dummies proves it.

Of course the side arc is bigger as it's more difficult to land a side style on a moving target than a rear or anytime style. The size of the arc has been known a long time. Btw only noobs use strafe to get to the side arc, as it's easy to counter this move. The best way to get to the side arc is to run through and mouse turn or /face. Remember though that trying to pull off this maneuver is risky, as you risk the "not in view" message or not be in the right arc if the opponent rotates their character (which happens often). The reason side styles and chains have such a big payoff is because of the big risk in trying to land them. If you are constantly being hit by side styles then maybe you should look at how you play, rather than trying to nerf something that has been in game since day 1.