Current stealth settings - Phoenix Freeshard

It seems like the dial has gone too far in favor of the stealthers. On a visible toon, I never see them until there are several on me chopping/shooting me to death. On a stealth toon I can detect them fine while in stealth but once I attack my target I’m blind to other stealth until I’m PA’d and dead. Before the update I was going to be overwhelmed by the target’s buddies but at least had a shot at being able to turn or move out of the PA/CD and making a fight out of it.
Is the new stealth detection restriction set up such that if I’m running speed the detection range is cut or do I have to be moving at speed? If I turn off speed and run around at sprint is detection the standard radius? If I’m running speed but standing still is detection impacted?

Thu 11 Oct 2018 6:33 PM by defiasbandit

Im not sure why its so difficult to detect stealthers here as a visible. It is pretty frustrating.

Fri 12 Oct 2018 7:50 PM by Kronin

Stealth detection is good imo. I was tired of the uber minstrels running with pet on aggro and uncovering you...Though I have noticed some assa have uncovered me while running Visible, but that was on my ranger so that is to be expected i suppose.

To Monkies - I know you miss the random perfs from my shade..DO NOT DENY IT hehehe

Fri 12 Oct 2018 8:04 PM by Monkies

Kron, my own guildies are giving me a hard time about the random perfs from your shade!

Fri 12 Oct 2018 8:42 PM by Kwall0311

I agree with most of the changes. Minstrel pets and or full zergs being able to cover an entire area on speed 6 and pop all sneaks wasnt a good thing. I do believe the stealth detection on an assassin (Not minstrel) should be present when running regular, or in a fight. It is pretty annoying to not be able to counter another PA add.

Fri 12 Oct 2018 9:01 PM by Sayuri

if you are in speed 6 but stay still or move slowy you still detect stealther

Fri 12 Oct 2018 11:50 PM by Cadebrennus

This is why it is important to be able to detect stealthers while you yourself are unstealthed;

https://youtu.be/jTga15Be3fo

Just watch the intro and you will all see what I'm talking about. The video is from the live server up to 2016.

Fri 12 Oct 2018 11:51 PM by defiasbandit

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Oct 2018 11:50 PM
This is why it is important to be able to detect stealthers while you yourself are unstealthed;

https://youtu.be/jTga15Be3fo

Just watch the intro and you will all see what I'm talking about. The video is from the live server up to 2016.

Agreed Cadebrennus. I don't understand what PvP game makes stealing EZ mode, where you can walk carelessly around your opponent without being detected.

Sat 13 Oct 2018 8:18 PM by Monkies

I'm ok with not being able to run around on Speed 6 and scour the mile gates but the detection penalty for not being in stealth just makes it a numbers game. Bring more guys to the fight and win. A stealth class should have a shot at a counter against another stealther once they're exposed even if that means just being able to turn out of the PA/BS. As it stands now, I've attacked a stealth target from stealth and then been killed by a conga line of PA's that I never saw coming until it was far too late.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 12:26 AM by Cadebrennus

Monkies wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 8:18 PM
I'm ok with not being able to run around on Speed 6 and scour the mile gates but the detection penalty for not being in stealth just makes it a numbers game. Bring more guys to the fight and win. A stealth class should have a shot at a counter against another stealther once they're exposed even if that means just being able to turn out of the PA/BS. As it stands now, I've attacked a stealth target from stealth and then been killed by a conga line of PA's that I never saw coming until it was far too late.

Truth.

Also, visualising a conga line of PAs made me chuckle

Sun 14 Oct 2018 5:50 AM by Monkies

@Cadebrennus,
I watched the video you posted and it does a fine job of illustrating things.

The PA conga line was pretty darn good too

Monkies/Dogbyte

Mon 15 Oct 2018 1:49 PM by Monkies

Last night I had spotted a stealthed scout moving out of the APK in Odin’s Gate and was within 250 units behind him. I knew this because I could see him in stealth. I broke stealth to attack and he disappeared. Ahh nuts! I forgot, out of stealth, no detection. Dive back into stealth and just see him at the edge of stealth clip moving away, but now he’s pulling away from me, he must have had higher stealth spec than me. Drop stealth to find him, never saw him again. I wish I’d thought to capture the video of the encounter. Very frustrating.

Monkies/Dogbyte

Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:09 PM by poisonclover

they move faster then you in stealth due to their spec is all.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:28 PM by poisonclover

Monkies wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 8:18 PM
I'm ok with not being able to run around on Speed 6 and scour the mile gates but the detection penalty for not being in stealth just makes it a numbers game. Bring more guys to the fight and win. A stealth class should have a shot at a counter against another stealther once they're exposed even if that means just being able to turn out of the PA/BS. As it stands now, I've attacked a stealth target from stealth and then been killed by a conga line of PA's that I never saw coming until it was far too late.

I mean honestly, you're complaining about not being able to see other stealthers before they crit strike you? as if your supposed to even have a chance anyway even if they miss there conga line of Pa's. Youre outnumbered.. you should lose.

As a scout that solos 99% of the time, I can attest as to how many times ive gotten the jump on other stealthers and still lost.
I mean it could be from the fact that there hitting me harder with their mainhand then my normal bow shot.
it could be that there stacking other dots with their Envenom Poison dot and the bleeds.
It could be that my melee damage mainhand hits for less then their off hand.
it could be that im getting side styled stunned that people have flawlessly been able to use as anytime styles now with a alittle mouse work.

what people aren't realizing is you can nerf stealth all you want, at the end of the day a good assassin is still going to kill you with even numbers or close.

Thing is you guys want stealth detection and you should be more worried about the burst DPS on these assasins. Its absurd as It stands.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 4:48 PM by Thinal

Dude... scouts are food. It's not that assassins are so freaking awesome; it's that scouts blow that hard. Fix is boost you, not nerf them.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 5:07 PM by defiasbandit

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Oct 2018 4:48 PM
Dude... scouts are food. It's not that assassins are so freaking awesome; it's that scouts blow that hard. Fix is boost you, not nerf them.

Assassins can PA crit for 1200 and are virtually impossible to detect for most classes. If they don't PA 1 shot you they can just follow with 9 second stun. There is no counterplay to any of this nonsense.

Either lower their damage or make them much easier to detect if you are a visible.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 5:26 PM by Cadebrennus

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Oct 2018 4:48 PM
Dude... scouts are food. It's not that assassins are so freaking awesome; it's that scouts blow that hard. Fix is boost you, not nerf them.

The biggest problem with Scouts in melee are shitty style lines that need to be overhauled, especially Thrust. However, that's a topic for another thread.

In regards to fixing stealth here, let's start with allowing stealthers to get Mastery of Stealth as an RA (that works stealthed or unstealthed) so that they can find the stealthzerg and bust them up. That's how we handled the stealthzerg on live and it worked really well.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 5:33 PM by Cadebrennus

Looks like Uthred read this thread and possibly saw my video as well;

https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2566

https://youtu.be/jTga15Be3fo

Mon 15 Oct 2018 6:04 PM by Monkies

Current state, there is virtually no reason to have a stealther in your group in the frontier unless it’s a minstrel. Archers have a slight edge in getting a group (ranged interrupts) over an assassin but only slightly. Without Truesight, the archers are marginalized too. There is one instance I can think of that’s the exception but there’s really no crossover point between the stealth game and the rest of daoc in the current state. Stealth classes are undetectable over 125 units except by another stealther that happens to be stealthed.
I tested this by standing in the path of full groups and getting run over by them and being completely ignored. I consider that a full group on speed 6 may not want to bother stopping to kill a stealther that flashed on their screen but my past experience says they will happily stop and stomp one into the ground if they can; I don’t blame them. I’ll try to repeat the test and post some videos. I’m betting that even at caster speed, groups will not notice me.

Monkies/Dogbyte

Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:05 AM by Calico

at current state, say goodbye to stealthers.....

Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:20 AM by Ganaka

Calico wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:05 AM
at current state, say goodbye to stealthers.....

What did I miss today?

Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:42 AM by Calico

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:20 AM
Calico wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:05 AM
at current state, say goodbye to stealthers.....

What did I miss today?

go emain with your stealther and prepare to be seen miles away from unstealthed groups... just like that

Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:54 AM by Cadebrennus

Calico wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:42 AM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:20 AM
Calico wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Oct 2018 12:05 AM
at current state, say goodbye to stealthers.....

What did I miss today?

go emain with your stealther and prepare to be seen miles away from unstealthed groups... just like that

Hardly. I was a Ranger in a Visi group today and I was seeing enemy stealth as they tried to get into their keep at no more than 125 units. Hardly miles away.

Tue 16 Oct 2018 1:17 AM by defiasbandit

Stealth is looking in better shape than ever. You can actually see some stealthers standing next to you.

Tue 16 Oct 2018 2:13 PM by Monkies

I think the dial is right about where it should be for stealth with this patch (10/15). Sneaks can still hide from the full groups that are moving around and not get rolled over but can easily move into position for a strike. Detection range seems to be at about 375 for assassin vs. archer and at about 275 for archer vs assassin. As it stood pre-patch, stealth was over the top undetectable. Last night during my testing I was able to sneak around and get kills but was clearly detectable at a reasonable range and had to give ground to the full groups or get exposed and killed. It appears the pendulum has swung in both directions and is now ringing down to a comfortable spot. Well done dev team.

Monkies/Dogbyte

Tue 16 Oct 2018 5:26 PM by defiasbandit

Monkies wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Oct 2018 2:13 PM
I think the dial is right about where it should be for stealth with this patch (10/15). Sneaks can still hide from the full groups that are moving around and not get rolled over but can easily move into position for a strike. Detection range seems to be at about 375 for assassin vs. archer and at about 275 for archer vs assassin. As it stood pre-patch, stealth was over the top undetectable. Last night during my testing I was able to sneak around and get kills but was clearly detectable at a reasonable range and had to give ground to the full groups or get exposed and killed. It appears the pendulum has swung in both directions and is now ringing down to a comfortable spot. Well done dev team.

Monkies/Dogbyte

Too true Dogbyte.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 7:08 PM by poisonclover

free rps for 8man and zergs. they legit speed 6 by and just /stick you. its quite hilarious in all honesty, because for a second or two before the rest of them realize what is going on they are all stuck to you.

You cant fix something that was never broken. the stealth system currently is broken... because you broke it.
Went from getting pa'd by a ghost, to no flight speed on arrows, to no crits on mezd targets to only being able to crit every 15 seconds, to stealthers saying f it and just grouping and zerging..

last night I spent 25 minutes at amg with about 15 other stealthers and fgs rolled up and got obliterated, so keep the stealth nerfs coming, I told you guys all it would do is eliminate solo stealthers and force them to group and now you got that instead of one or two stealthers adding a fight you have 10+.. Enjoy!

/amused on so many levels

Thu 18 Oct 2018 7:12 PM by defiasbandit

Steath should be less effective based on how close you are to other steathers or something.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 7:23 PM by Cadebrennus

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Oct 2018 7:12 PM
Steath should be less effective based on how close you are to other steathers or something.

I suggested this years ago on live and was promptly attacked on the postcount boards for such a scandalous suggestion. FYI my main is a stealther.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 10:25 PM by Monkies

I’m not seeing the problem I guess. I ran my sb pre and post patch and the current implementation seems fine. That being said, I also saw an insane amount of stealthers for the current population at amg in Odin’s last night (more than 10) and opted to move to my healer rather than try to get a reasonable 1v1 or even a 1v2. On the healer I could see stealthers but only when they were on top of me. I was backstabbed, perfed and crit shot no problem. So where’s the gap? I’m trying really hard to see this from both perspectives and it looks right to me from both angles. I play two toons that are pretty much polar opposite on the stealth tree and I’m very happy with the settings looking through either lens. I would sincerely like to understand.

Monkies/Dogbyte

Thu 18 Oct 2018 10:29 PM by defiasbandit

Dog we just feel that if stealthers are stacking or bunched up that their steath effectiveness should be lowered.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 12:15 AM by Monkies

Defias, I get that part of it. I'm talking about Poison's point. Is it that stealth is TOO powerful now?

Monkies/Dogbyte

Fri 19 Oct 2018 12:48 AM by defiasbandit

Monkies wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 12:15 AM
Defias, I get that part of it. I'm talking about Poison's point. Is it that stealth is TOO powerful now?

Monkies/Dogbyte

It is less powerful now. Stealth has weakened so stealthers are ganging up more splitting the RP gain as well. I don't think that type of behavior is good obviously. However, the way stealth worked before was broken. The playerbase is creating the current stealth group situation, not the mechanic of stealth.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 1:59 AM by Monkies

I appreciate the explanation. I just wasn't getting it. I think that judgement should be reserved until we see what effect population has on things. I'm pretty confident the 15 mids that are on at 7:00pm PST are not representative of what the dynamic will look like. With more targets spread out over a greater area there will be more opportunity for open play. Right now the ONLY way your going to find a fight is at a choke point. Total server pop right this minute is under 100 and that's driving behavior.

Monkies/Dogbyte

Fri 19 Oct 2018 2:02 AM by Cadebrennus

Monkies wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 1:59 AM
I appreciate the explanation. I just wasn't getting it. I think that judgement should be reserved until we see what effect population has on things. I'm pretty confident the 15 mids that are on at 7:00pm PST are not representative of what the dynamic will look like. With more targets spread out over a greater area there will be more opportunity for open play. Right now the ONLY way your going to find a fight is at a choke point. Total server pop right this minute is under 100 and that's driving behavior.

Monkies/Dogbyte

15 Mid stealth? Sounds like they are a direct transfer of the Mid stealth zerg from live

Fri 19 Oct 2018 4:52 AM by Monkies

Nah Cade, when I posted that there were only 15 total mids on the server at all. It did pick up a bit later on though.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 6:17 AM by Druth

Yeah, I agree they did not go about the right of fixing the problem.

Stealth in an area needs a cap. This might be a beta problem, but I'd rather have this be fixed in Beta than see 6 months after launch that the server have become a stealth server.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 8:04 AM by Cadebrennus

Quoting myself (again) from another thread. Video link has been shared before too. There's a lot of overlap in topic between the two threads.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 7:58 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 7:43 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 7:09 AM
This is why you invite an Assassin into your visible group and go stealth-zerg busting. Do it over and over again until they log. Free RPs and fun for all (except for the stealth zerging weenies.)

Not a bad idea, but I don't want DaoC to be a "hide and seek" simulator.
Some might enjoy hunting stealthers with a fg, but I doubt it.

We used to do this on live all the time. When soloers were collecting items for bounty points they would get jumped by 10-20 stealthers (no exaggeration.) The soloers would report a stealth zerg and the known stealth hunters (myself included) would form up groups to hunt them down mercilessly until they either moved on or logged off. It's a good way of community policing. I called it "turning on the lights and watching the cockroaches run."

https://youtu.be/jTga15Be3fo

I've shared this video before, but it has a point. It shows the problem (stealthzergs) and the solution (dedicated teams to clear them out.) As you can see, a good team which needs only one stealther (for detect hidden here or MOS on live) can clear out twice their numbers of stealth trash quite easily.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 9:19 AM by Druth

Different servers, different settings.

Would love you doing the same here, "lead the way" as they say, but as I explained in the other thread, I do not think it can be done here under the current settings.
Survivability and lack of MoS being the biggest problem.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 9:27 AM by Druth

And btw, please link threads instead of copying the quote.
It becomes text without proper context when you can't see the thread.

I know where it came from, but for other people it becomes a bit confusing

Fri 19 Oct 2018 9:15 PM by Cadebrennus

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 9:19 AM
Different servers, different settings.

Would love you doing the same here, "lead the way" as they say, but as I explained in the other thread, I do not think it can be done here under the current settings.
Survivability and lack of MoS being the biggest problem.

Assassins would be the best at leading groups to flush out stealth zergs here because they have a larger detection radius than Archers. Sadly my main is an Archer so I will be more limited in that regard.

The Devs should allow MOS as an RA to help combat this problem.

Sat 20 Oct 2018 9:24 AM by Dominus

thats exactly what my son said when I told him of the proposed change. he said they're going about the problem from the wrong angle. Don't force stealthers to quit playing in packs, incentivize them to not do this behavior. After they get rolled over and over for camping predictable locations, they'll change their behavior.

Sat 20 Oct 2018 4:41 PM by Monkies

/agree. The dynamic of having a stealther in a a visible group is probably what drove the first stealth coding mistake pre 10/15 patch. I believe that when they coded the game to make stealth detection nil when running speed and reduced it when not stealthed, it was an over-reaction to the stealth community whining about getting popped by fg's running a spotter. Lets face it, once a stealth zerg is exposed by even a decent smallman, they're going to flop pretty fast. Let them get wrecked a few times and they'll evolve a different playstyle. Additionally, the current code limit penalizes realms with low population. For a while this morning there were 116 mids and 160 albs. That means there can be 40 alb stealth running around and only 29 mid stealth and that will scale with population imbalance. Additionally additionally, minstrels are in the swing seat with options that no other stealth class has. Minstrels are still capable of a very powerful play style with no penalty for not using stealth. I know the implementation attempts to address this but it falls short. There will be unintended consequences from this behavior. It's a mistake to try to tailor the game based on the feedback and complaints of a small, hardcore population (which ironically I am a part of). Many of the complaints I've seen smack of "I'm a solo (insert class name here), righteous and proud that I solo and right now I can't be the destroyer that I always dreamed of because...stealthers, this must be fixed!."
I'm guilty of running my shadowblade in a visible group with the express intent of scouring the mile gates for stealth. With 4 people, a smallman can clean house on the stealth zergs so when I see /reg chat saying, "alb stealth zerg at xmg..." I don't see a problem, i see a fat rp opportunity for the crew. We usually only get to do this a couple times before we run out of targets. I'm pretty sure it's because the stealth zergs find some other playstyle to work with because it's no fun for the stealth zergs to get smashed and just feed a tuned group rps.

The game has to have an element of organic growth and form. That's what has always made DAoC so fun and dynamic.

We'll see how this evolves.

Monkeys/Dogbyte

Sat 20 Oct 2018 7:24 PM by Kronin

I think a lot of the problem is as usual people do not want to be creative on where to find the action they just want to camp mgs or pks when there is a entire frontier out there.

I play a lot of solo stealth. When I do group its either a duo or a trio but trio is rare. I have to be creative on where I can find action outside those two areas. If I get zerged down then I try to adjust. I think people just want quick action and do not want to be creative on where to find the good action. Right now it not so bad with keeping buffs up and what not since buffs and charges are free. My play style requires lots of patience that I did not used to have, but after 16+ years of playing daoc (also having kids) I have learned patience.

When Uthgard 2.0 launched couple years back everyone wanted to camp MGs and PK areas not me best action for me as a unbuffed INF was camping hastner routes. Those was my fav places to camp.

Here on phoenix you can not really camp hastner due to the perma sprint and long speed times so I once again have adjusted the play style. People do not want to adjust and just want to QQ.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 1:46 AM by Monkies

Thoughts on the new pots. I tried them out this weekend. Farming for the claws was not hard but it was time consuming. It was also artificially easy since everyone is clustered in Emain so going somewhere with a small group to farm the claws was no problem. Actual time to get 30 claws, about 1.5 hours. Then we needed access to a keep to spend the claws. We had to go break into the Bledmeer which meant killing the guards and breaking down the outer keep doors. The pots were bought and split among the crew. Total time invested when all was said and done, about 2 hours so each of us could have 5 charges. This leads me to believe that there are not going to be overwhelming supplies of these charges readily available. Action in the frontiers will limit the ease of farming the currency and what you get out of it is not SUPER overpowering but it is useful.
Now as far as pot use goes, I've had limited success with them on a stealther, and by limited I mean none. I have had one success with them on my visible toon. I won't be surprised if people will point at this to show how overpowering the item is. Not much doubt in my mind that the ranger in the video would have escaped if I hadn't had the SL pot handy. I have never found a stealther when I was at speed greater than sprint and using the pot. In the video, you'll notice that my speed kicks in right after I use the pot and I almost lose my target even though I was right on him so this was sort of a special case in that I'd already found him.

At the end of my testing, I have determined I like the pots. They're not a game changer and I haven't seen them used to any great advantage for or against my SB. They offer a slim chance of occasionally finding a stealther but they will not be a source of 8 mans tearing through the milegates wreaking havoc on stealth crews. We seem to be in a sweet spot for stealth right now, not too hot, not too cold.

Monkeys/Dogbyte

https://youtu.be/cMcsm0grC1Q

Tue 30 Oct 2018 7:01 AM by Isavyr

Currently, my opinion is that we're back to where stealth is too powerful. I was guarding a milegate tonight doorway, which isn't very wide, and stealthers kept sneaking past me. How is this logical at all? There is no effort by the stealthers to be sneaky, as instead stealth provides them a strong blanket that removes all preparation/sneakiness/craft. It's lazy and shouldn't be rewarded.

Now that we have these pots, we have somewhat of a counter, but I don't understand why this counter is needed in the first place. Furthermore, I didn't agree that visibles running fast and popping stealthers was a problem. If a visible has an idea of where you are, you fucked up, and you should be penalized. Why does anyone think that stealthers who are camping a spot should get a free pass?

Tue 30 Oct 2018 7:25 AM by Ceen

Why is everyone whining about raid gear. This 3-5 % slower weapon is not whats killing you its your lazyness not charging up to the max. Oh and the glow effects hit hard as well

Tue 30 Oct 2018 7:56 AM by Cadebrennus

Make moving in stealth cost endurance like in ESO, but the cost can't be offset with some endo regen pots.

Tue 30 Oct 2018 12:55 PM by Dominus

what UI are you running? Also, very good summation. I noticed also how you momentarily lost the Ranger when your speed increased. I believe the Devs should remove the speed element of detection when SL is popped. Yes, I know groups running speed 6 would be able to hit stealthers camping the mile gates, but isn't that the point? Sneaks shouldn't be camping the milegates in packs, they should be along the trails ganking stragglers or small mans.

Monkies wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Oct 2018 1:46 AM
Thoughts on the new pots. I tried them out this weekend. Farming for the claws was not hard but it was time consuming. It was also artificially easy since everyone is clustered in Emain so going somewhere with a small group to farm the claws was no problem. Actual time to get 30 claws, about 1.5 hours. Then we needed access to a keep to spend the claws. We had to go break into the Bledmeer which meant killing the guards and breaking down the outer keep doors. The pots were bought and split among the crew. Total time invested when all was said and done, about 2 hours so each of us could have 5 charges. This leads me to believe that they're not going to be overwhelming supplies of these charges readily available. Action in the frontiers will limit the ease of farming the currency and what you get out of it is not SUPER overpowering but it is useful.
Now as far as pot use goes, I've had limited success with them on a stealther, and by limited I mean none. I have had one success with them on my visible toon. I won't be surprised if people will point at this to show how overpowering the item is. Not much doubt in my mind that the ranger in the video would have escaped if I hadn't had the SL pot handy. I have never found a stealther when I was at speed greater than sprint and using the pot. In the video, you'll notice that my speed kicks in right after I use the pot and I almost lose my target even though I was right on him so this was sort of a special case in that I'd already found him.

At the end of my testing, I have determined I like the pots. They're not a game changer and I haven't seen them used to any great advantage for or against my SB. They offer a slim chance of occasionally finding a stealther but they will not be a source of 8 mans tearing through the milegates wreaking havoc on stealth crews. We seem to be in a sweet spot for stealth right now, not too hot, not too cold.

Monkeys/Dogbyte

https://youtu.be/cMcsm0grC1Q

Tue 30 Oct 2018 10:38 PM by phixion

This is what happens when you insist on OF... The choke points are the biggest issue here. Of course, NF has certain solo/stealther camping areas, but nothing like the milegates.

In NF, if you wanted to avoid the stealth zerg you simply avoided the bridges outside the main keeps.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 2:06 AM by Kwall0311

Those were the days

Wed 31 Oct 2018 7:30 AM by Qri

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Oct 2018 2:06 AM

Those were the days

i want it back :-(
stealth game was way more fun with NF Mos.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 8:40 AM by Druth

I just miss the days where fights lasted more than 1 min.

Wed 31 Oct 2018 9:12 AM by Koljar

Like those epic pala vs. valkyre fights?

Wed 31 Oct 2018 9:19 AM by Druth

Whatever

I had some Valk v. paladin/reaver fights that lasted 15 mins. That is a bit overdone.
But here I've had 1 single solo fight that lasted more than 1 minute, and that is a bit to fast for my liking.

In no way make or break for me... just dreaming and the picture was from NF where fights began lasting a lot longer, and solo/smallman fights were not only about draining opponent health, but power was also an issue.

Fri 2 Nov 2018 1:20 AM by Monkies

I did some more testing of the SL pots and I am standing by my position that they're going to be fine. What I don't think will be fine is straight up detection. In its current form, stealth detection is too weak to mean any risk to stealthers vs. visibles. If a visible finds a stealther it's a dumb accident or an afk stealther standing on a path at a choke point. If you add speed into the mix, it's not going to happen.
Here's a video of my testing from last night. The first portion of the clip is just straight static measuring the detection range which turned out to be ~425 units using a SL pot. When the pot wears off, you can see the detection snap off and I lose the SB. The second portion of the clip is no SL pot and moving at 183% speed (healer speed + sprint). The detection range is insanely bad. I'm betting I could run over a line of stealthers at this speed and never have a clue they were there. That's not right. At speed 6 or 234% speed detection is going to be non-existent. I've stood on my SB directly in the path of 8 mans and just let them run over me, no issue.
As I understand the current code, the detection range is divided by the speed. Devs, please comment if I get this wrong or have incorrect information. This means that at 425 range detection (using a SL pot) moving at 183% speed (caster speed + sprint) my detection range is 2.3 units? Bump that up to 234% speed (speed 5 + sprint) using a SL pot detection range is 1.8 units? For a non-assassin class, detection at any speed with no SL pot is so small that you will pass over the stealther and never notice them. If you're running an assassin in the group and going at any speed at all, the detection range is ridiculously low also (between 1.06 and 1.3 units).
In the stealth vs. stealth wars, this looks like a pretty healthy mix but nobody running alone will have much of a chance unless they can either beat a stealther or group of stealthers 1 v x.

https://youtu.be/ofn5PuenWVY

Monkeys/Dogbyte

Fri 2 Nov 2018 1:49 AM by defiasbandit

Great post Dogbyte. It is interesting to hear your results with the SL potions. I am also of the opinion that stealth in general is too strong.

Sat 3 Nov 2018 10:59 PM by Thinal

I'd love to get some of those potions on an archer to replace the See Hidden that was stolen from me, but my only claws (not enough for a pot) are on my animist from a group hitting caravans for a keep take. The times I've spammed LFG on my animist to go claw hunting have gotten me nowhere, and I can't solo them.

But it does seem like the classes most likely to actually benefit from these potions are other stealthers.

Sat 3 Nov 2018 11:41 PM by Joc

Live fights on sneaks are lasting quite a bit longer. That being said I also have over 3k health, better heal procs, mls, etc. Some classes are bringing 4k hp plus tons of heals. Had a fight on my NS with a r11 valk that I had to chew through 13k hp when I looked back on the logs. Had disease on him and rotated poison on him all fight. Lost the fight and he was at 5% hp at the end.

One of the best fights I've ever had. Live is still fun.

Sun 4 Nov 2018 5:47 AM by Monkies

@Thinal
It is possible to solo the caravans on an animist but it’s a pain in the neck. I’ve figured out a way but I farmed 1 or 2 and said forget it. I’m afraid that unless you have the pots on a stealth class then like you say, the benefit is minimal. I guess I should test them at sprint speed but on a visible class if you have any sort of speed they’re not that great.

Monkeys/Dogbyte

Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:13 PM by Sepplord

Thinal wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 10:59 PM
I'd love to get some of those potions on an archer to replace the See Hidden that was stolen from me, but my only claws (not enough for a pot) are on my animist from a group hitting caravans for a keep take. The times I've spammed LFG on my animist to go claw hunting have gotten me nowhere, and I can't solo them.

But it does seem like the classes most likely to actually benefit from these potions are other stealthers.

I can't know if this would help in your situation...but why don't you build a group instead of spamming LFG?
I have seen almost full setups for an 8vs8 group spam LFG for 30minutes instead of one of them just starting the group and inviting them all.

You can comfortably duo the caravans with most partners as an animist. So why are you spamming LFG (your words) instead of just asking for someone to join you?

Mon 5 Nov 2018 3:25 AM by Thinal

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:13 PM
I can't know if this would help in your situation...but why don't you build a group instead of spamming LFG?
I have seen almost full setups for an 8vs8 group spam LFG for 30minutes instead of one of them just starting the group and inviting them all.

You can comfortably duo the caravans with most partners as an animist. So why are you spamming LFG (your words) instead of just asking for someone to join you?

Christ, dude. Does every conversation have to be a fight? If you think you (!) have advice on how to communicate with someone else, are you sure this is how? That was amazingly harsh and uncalled for.

Mon 5 Nov 2018 7:29 AM by Koljar

No idea where he was harsh but...

Everybody wants to group up (well some prefer solo) but no one want to take over the lead. What happens is this - someone blames all the others for ignoring his or her LFG and all that Sepp did was point out that grouping up with those spamming LFG instead of blaming the others for not doing so would be the way to go.

Mon 5 Nov 2018 7:26 PM by Sepplord

Thanks Koljar, i had already reread my comment a few times wondering which part was considered overly harsh...

@Thinal my intention wasn't to offend you but nudge you into just building a group yourself. I am a bit baffled why you completely ignored my message and instead chose to take my comment as a "fight".

It's a fact that caravans can be easily DUOed/TRIOed, and it is also a fact that LFM gets responses much faster than LFG

Mon 5 Nov 2018 9:28 PM by Thinal

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:13 PM
So why are you ... instead of just ...

That is confrontational.

Your advice, once the confrontational portion is removed, is not bad, but when I said "spamming LFG" I was referring to the channel, not the message. So your underlying assumption was also confrontational.

I was amused and offended that you so hamhandedly and clumsily were trying to tell me I was being hamhanded and clumsy.

Mon 5 Nov 2018 11:12 PM by Sepplord

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Nov 2018 9:28 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:13 PM
So why are you ... instead of just ...

That is confrontational.

Your advice, once the confrontational portion is removed, is not bad, but when I said "spamming LFG" I was referring to the channel, not the message. So your underlying assumption was also confrontational.

I was amused and offended that you so hamhandedly and clumsily were trying to tell me I was being hamhanded and clumsy.

Read your own comment before i had even replied to you, and you will find a lot of confrontational and offending statements in there too (if you apply the same sensitivity). If you infact are NOT wanting to turn every discussion into a fight, you would take the "not bad" advice i gave you and comment on it, instead of focussing on a few words that can be interpreted as offending

I am not going to play your nitpicking game any longer, as it is being turned into a kindergarden game of "NO YOU FIRST DID XYZ" (yes, i am aware that is a confrontational statement)

Tue 6 Nov 2018 4:14 PM by Thinal

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Nov 2018 11:12 PM
Read your own comment before i had even replied to you, and you will find a lot of confrontational and offending statements in there too (if you apply the same sensitivity).

No... I'd have to be confronting someone to be confrontational. Even if you interpreted my friendly words in the most malicious way possible, if I were screaming this at the top of my lungs from the confines of my straightjacket, it wouldn't be confrontational because I confront no one in my statement.

Rhetorical questions directed at an individual are confrontational. There was no way to actually answer your question, and therefore you were being incredibly rude. (Rhetorical questions are always pointless, but one can dismiss them as ranting if not directed at anybody, and I understand that we often need to rant.) Your inability to see this even after it's been pointed out is even more troublesome, because it indicates that you go through life not realizing how rude you are.

Mon 19 Nov 2018 3:26 PM by Disco

SB Crit Rate ...is this serious?

Mon 19 Nov 2018 5:28 PM by Sepplord

statistics have outliers...

citrate of SBs could be even bugged and far too low and there would still be an SB crating 4times in a row

unless you find something off with a bigger sample size and not a nitpicked example I don't think there is anything to even talk about really

Mon 19 Nov 2018 10:41 PM by Dariussdars

Disco wrote: ↑
Mon 19 Nov 2018 3:26 PM

SB Crit Rate ...is this serious?

Critted on 2 swings in a row? Is that a lot? Any idea how high the SBs MoP is? Statistics of 2 swings critting twice doesn't mean SBs crit at a 100% rate. Not really sure what you are trying to show/prove?

Mon 19 Nov 2018 10:45 PM by Dariussdars

Disco wrote: ↑
Mon 19 Nov 2018 3:26 PM

SB Crit Rate ...is this serious?

I'm a little more concerned that you have 50% slash resist. How high is your PD?

Tue 20 Nov 2018 3:57 AM by Mcnasty

This server has great stealth settings.

It is too difficult for non-stealth players to see stealth..i have never been seen when groups run over me 10x a day lol. That being said, I believe this also has an effect on 1v1 solo action. Solos can see solos from a good distance, and it promotes action between purely stealth fighters. Double edged sword I guess, but for me this has been extremely fun to play! 90% of my fights are 1v1, and it's nice to finally see that on a consistent basis.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 7:00 AM by Disco

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 19 Nov 2018 10:45 PM
I'm a little more concerned that you have 50% slash resist. How high is your PD?

Full Buff Potion + Spec AF + Pd5 i guess

Sepplord wrote: unless you find something off with a bigger sample size and not a nitpicked example I don't think there is anything to even talk about really

This is just the best example. I could still upload dozens of similar screenshots, but I feel that 3/4 PAs are so critical or high that you do not have any chanche to react.
I've played live for 13 years, but that's never happened to me, except the assasine was rr11 + or i was not sc'd. quite apart from the bow.
Unfortunately, the stealther lobby is so big here that probably nobody will agree with me.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 7:46 AM by Cadebrennus

Tue 20 Nov 2018 9:10 AM by Druth

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 19 Nov 2018 10:45 PM
I'm a little more concerned that you have 50% slash resist. How high is your PD?

250 (-123) I think is roughly 35% resist.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 11:45 AM by Dariussdars

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Nov 2018 9:10 AM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 19 Nov 2018 10:45 PM
I'm a little more concerned that you have 50% slash resist. How high is your PD?

250 (-123) I think is roughly 35% resist.

Yeah, I saw after I posted my math was way off.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 4:07 PM by Sepplord

Disco wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Nov 2018 7:00 AM
Sepplord wrote: unless you find something off with a bigger sample size and not a nitpicked example I don't think there is anything to even talk about really

This is just the best example. I could still upload dozens of similar screenshots, but I feel that 3/4 PAs are so critical or high that you do not have any chanche to react.
I've played live for 13 years, but that's never happened to me, except the assasine was rr11 + or i was not sc'd. quite apart from the bow.
Unfortunately, the stealther lobby is so big here that probably nobody will agree with me.

Then provide them, and show all other attacks that happened in between too...
nitpicking a result is nothing to discuss...someone with a 1% critchance can crit 4times in a row too.

I am on the side of assassins being overturned a bit btw...so no, the reason no-one agrees with you is because you nitpicked a screenshot. To get that changed you need actual tests or data that shows something is off. A nitpicked screenshot doesn't do that.

It's instant50...go make an assassin and attack the dummy. Record 100hits and show that citrate is too high. It will never be this easy again. If you really are interested in a VALID discussion, and believe that citrate is broken, then prove it. Otherwise you are just whining because you got killed by some lucky crits

Tue 20 Nov 2018 4:58 PM by defiasbandit

Disco wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Nov 2018 7:00 AM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 19 Nov 2018 10:45 PM
I'm a little more concerned that you have 50% slash resist. How high is your PD?

Full Buff Potion + Spec AF + Pd5 i guess

Sepplord wrote: unless you find something off with a bigger sample size and not a nitpicked example I don't think there is anything to even talk about really

This is just the best example. I could still upload dozens of similar screenshots, but I feel that 3/4 PAs are so critical or high that you do not have any chanche to react.
I've played live for 13 years, but that's never happened to me, except the assasine was rr11 + or i was not sc'd. quite apart from the bow.
Unfortunately, the stealther lobby is so big here that probably nobody will agree with me.

I agree with you Disco. I have been saying this since I first stepped into RvR here. Thats not how Assassins were in Classic unless the player was RR11.

Everyone claims it is going to be so different at launch. Players will level farming toons first then gear their Assassins so they can near 1 shot PA you.

Tue 20 Nov 2018 7:39 PM by Thinal

Disco wrote: ↑
Tue 20 Nov 2018 7:00 AM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 19 Nov 2018 10:45 PM
This is just the best example. I could still upload dozens of similar screenshots, but I feel that 3/4 PAs are so critical or high that you do not have any chanche to react.

You're a cloth-wearing caster. YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE A CHANCE TO REACT. Frankly, neither should a tank... but definitely not YOU.

You're whining about the "stealther lobby" when you want stealthers to be able to kill FUCKING NOBODY if they can't perf a cloth caster to death. Get used to your head rolling on the ground in this case, and rest assured that the other 7 men in your group will kill the stealther 0.62 second later, then rez you to boot.

As for what caused your screenshot, it's called "Mastery of Pain." He didn't get that awesome crit rate for free, and it's the best offensive RA available to assassins. OMG that he should buy some.