Pet bugging into Keeps/Towers...

Yes we know, this will not be fixaable due several reasons, and it never was on any freeshard except Uthgard in the late state who implemeted pathing,- but i ask you what will be your solution here?
The amount of people, especially albs, who abuse this mechanic is somewhat ridiculous... Furthermore its a shame you folks use this Pet bugging for NO reasons, because you outnumber your enemy anyway sooner or later in so many cases.
This has to take soem serious offence.- its absolutely unacceptable that STILL no penalties are imposed for this behavior.
You dont even know who send the friggin pet,- so please change the damage message to the owner of the pet so something can be done..
Yes, you may sometimes forget to make your pet passiv... happens..,- but Juggernaut Necros and Cabby pets with group/spreadheals from outside over and over again, is not accidental but pure intention and this should be punished without any question,- and on a server with stable ~ 1,5k players you can not simply ignore this issue.
It destroys every smallmen and solo siege experience, because you have nothing to counter this bullshit.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 2:17 PM by Sepplord

what is wierd is that not all pets ignore the walls like that (or not at all times do pets in general ignore walls like that)

Thu 7 Jan 2021 2:25 PM by Simon73

Totally agree with Rune

Thu 7 Jan 2021 2:25 PM by Nirelieh

Midgard region chat: "Come defend Berkstead Faste, it will be fun!" they said!

Abomination & emerald simulacrum: Hold my beer.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 4:17 PM by

gruenesschaf

I guess an option to avoid precisely that is to let the lord or maybe any guards inside a keep oneshot any pets it hits while the relevant door is still closed.

As for the general issue, we have pathing. The problem is our pathing is based on everything being static, doors by their nature are dynamic, as would destructible walls be. So for now, walls just are always in there meaning we cannot have destructible walls and doors just are not there as far as pet pathing is concerned.
Changing that to allow for dynamic things is planned at some point but this is a quite huge change as this is pretty much a rewrite of the pathing system.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 5:23 PM by Runental

Thank Schaf for taking care of this.

As i sayd,- we all know this is a common freeshard problem since years,- and its mostly impossible to solve it to livelike without reworking the whole system.

Killing Pets instant is a good point to start,- but therefore guards need some tweaks,- because in the current setting they simply run out to the pet owner and get killed by the attackers. Which will result in a keep without any melee guards except the Lord. So you either have to rework the aggro behaviour from all guards or stick to Lord only,- which is not the best solution, but atleast it is a solution.

Another solution would be a system, which is directly adressed to player behaviour. Most people know pet pathing dont work as intented, but STILL, they dont care and send their pets through the walls. Why not punish that?
So that it doesn't turn into too much work for the staff because they have to check hundreds of screenshots from bug abusing players,- indroduce some kind of /*placeholder* command, (tag/report system) were a defender can tag a pet which is tied to a player. This ofc should only be possible when a keeplord is nearby or the pet owner is close to avoid false tags.
Once the pet owner has, lets say 10 tags he gets an automatically ingame warning to rethink his behaviour.
After 15 or 20 tags he gets soem punishement. In connection with a clear statement about the rules on your homepage there could be a change of this behaviour.
I know you can log any stats internally from whatever you want,- so i guess this may be a solution without to much work for the gamemasters who have to check reports the whole day.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 5:32 PM by Runental

linked this from a mate which shows the full disaster:

https://streamable.com/r7mr6k

Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:44 PM by Krishprolls

Linking the other topic open about it, from which the video comes from :
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/28087-pet-in-keeps-solutions-to-prevent-abuse

As it has been said, something must be done about it as it is both a bug abuse, as Runental described it, and it destroys any attempt for small pugs to defend their keep.

Both solutions already expressed would be a great improvement :
- add the name of the player next to the controled-pet attacks, for further disciplinary actions,
- implement an auto-kill / auto-release of any controled pet entering an area supposedly locked by a dynamic variable not equal to 0 (or however you code it),
- buff guards to insta kill pets, if they are in this locked area,
- buff Lord to insta kill pets if the door is closed.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 9:39 PM by Sepplord

I might be completely misremembering, but don't pets sometimes just walk through the Wall or Up onto one instead of going to the door?

I haven't Seen my pets doing it when im on bonedancer but could have sworn i have seen enemy pets appears right through the Wall

Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:17 PM by easytoremember

Runental wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 5:32 PM
linked this from a mate which shows the full disaster:

https://streamable.com/r7mr6k

giant abom showing up the third time around is hilarious

Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:40 PM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 4:17 PM
I guess an option to avoid precisely that is to let the lord or maybe any guards inside a keep oneshot any pets it hits while the relevant door is still closed.

As for the general issue, we have pathing. The problem is our pathing is based on everything being static, doors by their nature are dynamic, as would destructible walls be. So for now, walls just are always in there meaning we cannot have destructible walls and doors just are not there as far as pet pathing is concerned.
Changing that to allow for dynamic things is planned at some point but this is a quite huge change as this is pretty much a rewrite of the pathing system.

Why not just add a new entity that stands inside by the door of a keep/tower thats sole purpose is destroying pets that run thru? The entity disappears when the doors are open and also takes an hour to spawn on newly claimed keeps or when no realm enemies are within range. I think this is a better option vs making the lord or guards have this function as there could be bugs with guards or lords one-shotting pets even with door down would be possible.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:59 PM by Sepplord

That solution could bug just as well and not despawn properly, respawnt properly, Attack Players instead, etc...

What makes the "entity" different from a guard anyways besides requiring a ton of other codings on top of the mechanic to oneshot pets

Thu 7 Jan 2021 11:22 PM by

gruenesschaf

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:40 PM
Why not just add a new entity that stands inside by the door of a keep/tower thats sole purpose is destroying pets that run thru? The entity disappears when the doors are open and also takes an hour to spawn on newly claimed keeps or when no realm enemies are within range. I think this is a better option vs making the lord or guards have this function as there could be bugs with guards or lords one-shotting pets even with door down would be possible.

Hm, having the door just kill pets that are within a certain range on the other side might not be a dumb idea. Issue here would be that it would be polling which given some speeds / circumstances could let a pet slip through.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 11:33 PM by easytoremember

Consider when keep changes hands with players inside,
and when players hide inside the keep during the cap and remain there

Thu 7 Jan 2021 11:34 PM by

gruenesschaf

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 11:33 PM
Consider when keep changes hands with players inside,
and when players hide inside the keep during the cap and remain there

Almost sad you said it, the bug report from necros caught by that would haven been at least a bit funny :p

Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:04 AM by Bradekes

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 11:33 PM
Consider when keep changes hands with players inside,
and when players hide inside the keep during the cap and remain there

I did address that.. I don't think players would hide for over an hour in an enemy keep.. I think this concern would be too uncommon of a concern vs the good that would come from this addition.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:59 PM
That solution could bug just as well and not despawn properly, respawnt properly, Attack Players instead, etc...

What makes the "entity" different from a guard anyways besides requiring a ton of other codings on top of the mechanic to oneshot pets

Why would it require more coding? I think it would be equal coding, but the guard/lord would have higher chances of failing due to it not despawning when the door was opened which this entity's existence would be tied to the life of the door thus having a much lower chance of being a problem once the doors health was destroyed.

As far as attacking players, no players should be able to be inside a keep/tower when the doors are up anyways and the spawning of said entity on keep/tower take has already been discussed as to where that problem should never arise.

This could also be an attackable statue inside of keeps/towers so when the door's down the enemy realm can attack it and kill to eliminate any bugged circumstances, but still only killing pets not players to clarify.

Fri 8 Jan 2021 7:24 AM by Sepplord

Just to explain my previous comment:

I was thinking, what is the difference between the same trigger (aka door being killed/opened) leading to guards/lord losing their OP-oneshot-dmg that only works on pets, or the trigger leading to despawning the "entity"?
For me it sounds like the trigger not correctly happening could bug out either way with the same/similar chance of it happening
Then that entity has different rules for the respawning. Adressing that in text doesn't mean that cannot bug out. A new spawning system for this entity means it is more likely to bug (or at least just as likely to bug as the "activate buff on lords/guards mechanic"

Theorizing on how that would be coded, i will probably be completely wrong, but wouldn't a buff on guards/lords work via a modifier in their dmg calculation depending on door status and target (pet 1/0)?
While with a new entity, you would have to code all the details, attack/pulse speed of the attack/killarea/"aggrorange"

But that was just to show what i was thinking, i am not familiar with how DAoC code works and everything above could be completely wrong. I should have worded my previous comment more as a question.

Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:13 PM by Hedien

To be honest, while we can try to create the perfect solution, we could benefit from a quick in-between solution.
For example the door killing any pet that cross... if there is a fight happening and they are locked inside, yes it would not be ideal.
But the occurrence is much lower than what is happening today.

We could implement this, and after look for a way to deal with the lock inside situation.

Step by step improvement.

Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:32 PM by Sepplord

Hedien wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:13 PM
To be honest, while we can try to create the perfect solution, we could benefit from a quick in-between solution.
For example the door killing any pet that cross... if there is a fight happening and they are locked inside, yes it would not be ideal.
But the occurrence is much lower than what is happening today.

We could implement this, and after look for a way to deal with the lock inside situation.

Step by step improvement.

My sample size is quite small but i would estimate that when i send my pets to attack a door, it's basically a 50/50chance If they attack from outside or go through and attack from the inside

Considering it has been like it is for almost 2years, rushing an in-between solution that comes with new problems isn't warranted imo. It's not like pets going through are gamebreaking or even turning the tide of huge battles

Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:13 PM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Jan 2021 7:24 AM
Just to explain my previous comment:

I was thinking, what is the difference between the same trigger (aka door being killed/opened) leading to guards/lord losing their OP-oneshot-dmg that only works on pets, or the trigger leading to despawning the "entity"?
For me it sounds like the trigger not correctly happening could bug out either way with the same/similar chance of it happening
Then that entity has different rules for the respawning. Adressing that in text doesn't mean that cannot bug out. A new spawning system for this entity means it is more likely to bug (or at least just as likely to bug as the "activate buff on lords/guards mechanic"
Theorizing on how that would be coded, i will probably be completely wrong, but wouldn't a buff on guards/lords work via a modifier in their dmg calculation depending on door status and target (pet 1/0)?
While with a new entity, you would have to code all the details, attack/pulse speed of the attack/killarea/"aggrorange"

But that was just to show what i was thinking, i am not familiar with how DAoC code works and everything above could be completely wrong. I should have worded my previous comment more as a question.

So, I think a pretty full proof way of fixing this would be making the door the one casting this spell/effect (maybe even a pulse chant) on an invisible entity that is only targetable by the door that sits inside the keep/tower far enough in to kill the pets that would actually be attempting to ascend the stairs in either situation. This adds redundancy for the effect to end by making the invisible entity despawn with the door and the door would be unable to cast the effect if it were at 0hp.

Hedien wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Jan 2021 12:13 PM
To be honest, while we can try to create the perfect solution, we could benefit from a quick in-between solution.
For example the door killing any pet that cross... if there is a fight happening and they are locked inside, yes it would not be ideal.
But the occurrence is much lower than what is happening today.

We could implement this, and after look for a way to deal with the lock inside situation.

Step by step improvement.

That is like not even a concern.. this entity can be adjusted so that it doesn't spawn until there are no realm enemies within a radius or similar to when a keep/tower isn't in siege mode. Guards don't spawn instantly when a tower is taken and this could follow that with an additional code linked to the same mechanic that doesn't allow a door to be repaired while under siege for its spawning. While that may lead to some instances where pets are freely going thru the doors it would minimize the events by a 95%+ margin

Fri 8 Jan 2021 1:29 PM by Lollie

They could give the door Sever the Tether ability so if a pet is naughty it turns around and slaps it's owner

Thu 14 Jan 2021 11:44 AM by kanshi

Runental is right, we should stop pets from going into defended keeps and ruining the fun of defenders. After all, their fun is more important than everyone else's.

But we should not assume every time this happens it was an intentional act. Pet casters lose track of their pets all the time in a chaotic situation like a keep siege. If they see their pet's health go down, yes, they're going to spam heals on it and do whatever else to keep it alive, including using Juggernaut. It doesn't mean there's always some malicious intent to break the game.

Even when the act is intentional, is there some rule that says pets aren't allowed to go through doors? How is sending a pet through a door any more an exploit than wizards casting gtaoe inside a keep? Are pet casters supposed to keep their pets on passive while sieging?

While we embark on the task of fixing this issue, we should also fix all the longstanding issues (both technical and design) faced by the necro class, since they're not allowed to have one little thing despite all the crap they have to deal with:

1) Necro pets are level 44 max and take extra damage as a level 44 in a world of level 50s. Everyone can say this is by design, but necros suffer a huge disadvantage as a result. Make the pets level 50.

2) Necro pets take 100% critical damage max, while everyone else takes 50% max. But they deal 50% critical damage max, and have 0% base critical rate while everyone else has 10%.

3) When necro pets are mezzed, stunned, rooted, etc, there is no icon to indicate this, either on the main screen or in the pet window (due to buffs). Because the pet is usually behind the shade, the necro has to constantly turn around just to check the pet's status. The tether range and warning time are so short now, it's very easy to lose the pet, especially in the chaos of zerg combat.

4) Every time the necro tries to cast a spell (either as shade or thru pet), the mana is immediately consumed, even if the spell is never successfully cast. If necro doesn't know his pet was mezzed, he finds himself suddenly without mana.

5) Necros are unable to effectively cast offensive targetted spells while defending a keep or tower from a rampart. Because the pet is always behind the shade, the pet will suffer line of sight issues. The necro must fumble with pet commands such as "here" and "follow" while the pet is gettin nuked down as a level 44.

6) Shade spells that have only 500 range are effectively useless in a zerg. Pretty much useless in any situation other than solo.

7) Necros don't benefit from crafted armor & weapon procs.

8) Necros get reduced benefit from buff potions because the buffs don't apply to the pet.

9) Necros don't have any kind of ranged aoe which limits their effectiveness in zerg combat. Both of the other SI casters - BD and Animist - get ranged aoe damage.

10) Necro pets take enhanced damage (something like 4x) from epic mobs even though the necro IS the pet.

Before we can fix at least some of these issues, we should not be hellbent on eliminating any tiny advantage that the necro and other pet casters have. At least not until devs affirmatively state that sending pets through doors constitutes an exploit and that it warrants a penalty.

Thu 14 Jan 2021 12:14 PM by Sepplord

pretty subjective list of points there

This one especially made me roll my eyes:

kanshi wrote: 10) Necro pets take enhanced damage (something like 4x) from epic mobs even though the necro IS the pet.

Necro's aren't all fun and easymode, i agree. They have some serious issues.
But they also have some borderline OP strengths and such a onesided and misrepresenting list probably turns more people away from agreeing with you than convincing them

Thu 14 Jan 2021 1:07 PM by DJ2000

kanshi wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Jan 2021 11:44 AM
i demand...
1) Make the pets level 50.
2) Necro pets take 50% critical damage max, and have 10% base critical rate.
3) When necro pets are mezzed, stunned, rooted, etc, -> icon to indicate this, The tether range and warning time are longer,
4) Every time the necro tries to cast a spell (either as shade or thru pet), the mana is consumed, if the spell is successfully cast.
5) While defending a keep or tower from a rampart. The pet will no longer need line of sight.
6) Shade spells that have only 500 range are now 1500.
7) Necro Pets benefit from crafted armor & weapon procs.
8) Necro Pets benefit from buff potions, as they now apply to the pet and the Necro.
9) Necros have a AoE variant for all their 1500 Spells.
10) Necro pets take reduced damage (something like 4x) from epic mobs.

Did i get this right?
Go ahead, entertain me.

Thu 14 Jan 2021 6:15 PM by joshisanonymous

I admit that I often do this on purpose. It's simply a much more effective way to shut down defending casters than trying to cast on them for the second or two they come into view. The only realm that can more effectively shut down defenders is Hib because of shrooms and stun+nuke.

It shouldn't be like this, though. I've been on the receiving end, too, of course, and it's just not fun to try to defend against never ending pets. I once tried to defend a tower solo while an 8man was sieging it. I was doing fine until someone with a pet managed to target me. From then on, it was impossible to do anything but fight the never-ending supply of pets coming at me.

Fri 15 Jan 2021 3:38 AM by Takeahnase

more and more i find myself overwhelmed by caster pets during keep/tower defenses, especially when there are few defenders.

maybe everyone should abuse this bug to the point where it infuriates enough of the community that the devs will think of some kind of work around. the issue really is out of hand.

P.S. <3 Runental. i'd tell you who i am, but it's a secret!

Fri 15 Jan 2021 12:18 PM by kanshi

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Jan 2021 12:14 PM
pretty subjective list of points there

This one especially made me roll my eyes:
kanshi wrote: 10) Necro pets take enhanced damage (something like 4x) from epic mobs even though the necro IS the pet.

Necro's aren't all fun and easymode, i agree. They have some serious issues.
But they also have some borderline OP strengths and such a onesided and misrepresenting list probably turns more people away from agreeing with you than convincing them

Yeah I wasn't looking to make an objective list. Nor was I arguing the Necro class is underpowered in any way. But I don't want people who have never played the class to think it's all fun and games. Which you acknowledged. I was making the point that there are a ton of issues afflicting the necro class that have been around for a very long time which makes it very hard to play in rvr, but when there's is some tiny thing that makes them good someone wants to get it removed. First the tether shortening, then the loss of groundassist. Basically no one ever wants to group a necro in rvr so it's stuck in a solo existence.

Fri 15 Jan 2021 12:21 PM by kanshi

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Jan 2021 1:07 PM
kanshi wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Jan 2021 11:44 AM
i demand...
1) Make the pets level 50.
2) Necro pets take 50% critical damage max, and have 10% base critical rate.
3) When necro pets are mezzed, stunned, rooted, etc, -> icon to indicate this, The tether range and warning time are longer,
4) Every time the necro tries to cast a spell (either as shade or thru pet), the mana is consumed, if the spell is successfully cast.
5) While defending a keep or tower from a rampart. The pet will no longer need line of sight.
6) Shade spells that have only 500 range are now 1500.
7) Necro Pets benefit from crafted armor & weapon procs.
8) Necro Pets benefit from buff potions, as they now apply to the pet and the Necro.
9) Necros have a AoE variant for all their 1500 Spells.
10) Necro pets take reduced damage (something like 4x) from epic mobs.
Did i get this right?
Go ahead, entertain me.

I did not demand anything. My point is that if someone wants to remove a necro advantage then they should also remove a necro disadvantage. Any ONE of the items on the list will suffice. I honestly don't care if none of the issues I listed ever gets addressed as long as they keep off the nerf bat.

As for the line of sight thing -- I was literally standing 10 units from the mid zerg today inside a tower on a flat surface with no obstructions (both shade and pet). Tried to cast on them and the log said my pet can't see them. But no, this stuff shouldn't be fixed.

Fri 15 Jan 2021 8:03 PM by s3b

So.... A necro shouldn't sick his pet to someone behind closed doors? Didn't know that - noted.

Sun 17 Jan 2021 11:19 AM by Hedien

Another defense with 5 mib vs 28 hibs. We could not fight due to pets.
Super annoying and frustrating.
This one player was creating pet and sending it back again and again.

The thing is. We log with my brother play duo Thane / Skald. We get rolled over and manage 2/3 "normal" fights in 2 hours. We logged off out of frustration.
Then we say "hibs are taking keeps in mid, let's pull our defense toon and have some fun". We logged off out of frustration.

People logging off out of frustration is really not great. Please implement in-between solution before your perfect solution becomes available.

Edit: Let's not make this about necro. Necro has the strongest pet in the game. But tbh, we faced issues with Caby pet, and today chanter pet. I am sure some hibs / albs are facing SM pet related frustrations.

Sun 17 Jan 2021 5:24 PM by Runental

*bumb*

Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:10 AM by Takeahnase

bump

Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:20 AM by albionexile

This is a real problem and needs resolving, it basically makes defending impossible without healers and is ruining fights for smaller defenders against big zergs.

If you are going to nerf classes and removed things then please also address this problem

Tue 19 Jan 2021 6:05 AM by Sepplord

It is a very old issue that they can not really fix...only work around
it seems the staff has acknowledged it and reflected on possible solutions, and since then "you guys" have increased the pressure tenfold as a "reward".

Yes it is annoying. Yes a work around would be nice.
No, your smallman without healers, that cannot deal with a pet will not defend anything against a zerg even without a pet. Those claims are ridiculous. And repeating that probably won't solve the issue earlier

Tue 19 Jan 2021 9:57 AM by Runental

What pressure?
A bumb every 10 days is far from pressure, and it's neither when different people comment on this issue.. So maybe relax a bit. (And if u think a small man can't do anything versus an attacking zerg, u simply wrong, - but they are the whole fight on idle cuz they have to deal with instant recasted 3+ cab and 2+ Necro pets).. I don't mention the additional charmed ones...
Things are in discussion, all fine.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 10:58 AM by Sepplord

I am relaxed, i am always quite relaxed here since i decided to not get emotional about changes anymore and just try them out and play as long as i keep having fun...seems ironic you are telling me to relax ^^
a discussion is no problem at all...i welcome it. I would like more discussions here.
I also usually agree with your comments her runental, or if i disagree they at least make sense and seem factual. I am a bit surprised to see such a opposite picture here...

If the same things are being repeated over and over again, without new information though, why can't i call that out again in the same way?
Especially if it sometimes comes with useless exxagerations...

want an example?

Runental wrote: What pressure?
A bumb every 10 days is far from pressure

Checking the last two bumps, the first one was made within 6hours of the previous post, the next one within 1,5days. hmm...but yeah, claiming that to be 10days surely helps having a reasonable discussion (and it's not like there aren't new threads being made, instead of just commenting in the existing one). So really, why did you claim 10days bump? Seems like you felt the need to get overly defensive just because i was poinnting out something you didn't like to hear. That way of arguing is detrimental to a lively discussion. My post wasn't meant as a personal attack, it was to point out that the issue has been adressed multiple times, also just recently and that getting annoying about it might not be the best strategy. A Bump every 10days (or even every 7days if it really was that long) surely wouldn't be annoying imo

I also never claimed that a smallmen cannot defend against a zerg. A skilled one with good setup surely can cause delays and make it a little bit harder for the zerg to get done. I am almost sure you read that i specified a smallman "that cannot even deal with a pet" though...and you try to twist those words, probably for similar reasons why you claimed the 10-day bump...and again, it is the exact opposite of fostering a nice on topic discussion (as you can see it still can turn into a entertaining discussion about who said what and who needs to relax... it won't help the issue though)

If you feel confident in your claims and this is just a huge misunderstanding, please paint a picture for me (and everyone else)
What is the group and situation that will have an impact on defense (or even just a bit of fun making RPs without impacting the zerg in the big scope) while at the same time is unable to kill a pet?

Tue 19 Jan 2021 12:42 PM by Astaa

I don't think there is a great deal they can do about it. Yes it's broken, yes it is abused to the point of being ridiculous.

Maybe an idea would to be having a special guard inside each door that does constant AOE damage to kill all pets that cross the door threshold, that dies when the door dies? I'm not sure how feasible that would be.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 12:49 PM by Lollie

It's been a while since i played a pet class, does the pet heal require los?

Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:05 PM by Takeahnase

@Sepplord:

Runental is correct, the right smallman can do quite a bit defending against a zerg. I think you're missing the point though. It's not just "a pet" and they don't just appear one time. It's an army of pets that consistently pour through closed doors. The people casting these pets are also healing them. When the pet gets cc'd, the caster releases the pet and casts a new one.

Sure, a smallman can kill 5-6 pets that are repeatedly running into a keep or tower; however, when you spend all your time clearing pets, you might as well be pve'ing. You at least get coin/drops doing that.

Also, you should really try defending something, in the manner that we're describing here, to see for yourself.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:07 PM by Takeahnase

Lollie wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 12:49 PM
It's been a while since i played a pet class, does the pet heal require los?

No. Also, the pet can be healed by anyone with a group heal.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 2:00 PM by Lollie

Then maybe thats the start, need los to heal pet. If thier healers wants to burn mana healing the pet by spamming group heal then so be it.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 2:17 PM by albionexile

To give you an idea, our 5 man was defending KM last night against the hib zerg, I looked at the logs and we killed 27 underhill pets in around 5-10 minutes of defending, all of which were being recasted and sent through doors, that should give you an idea on the level of the issue where a small man trying to defend against greater numbers.....

Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:27 AM by Hedien

@Sepp: You wrote quite a few sentences to prove that you are relaxed. This is atypical ... for someone relaxed.

You say we give pressure, I say we maintain awareness. Because it is the way it works. The more people complain about an issue, the more it will occupy brain space and the higher the likelihood to have this done before another change.

People were complaining about alb 8 man dominating : addressed.
People were complaining about archer doing unreasonably high dmg : addressed,
People were complaining about lack of solo = addressed.
People were complaining about RR 5 / Style changes = addressed and addressed.

In each single instance, there was head space occupied and the matter being addressed. The above are only recent examples...
So for us to bump a post to get it addressed is just logical.

Your intervention is just not bringing anything to the table. Use that brain power of yours, and propose a solution that will make everyone happy.
Feel offended if you must.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:33 AM by Hedien

albionexile wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 2:17 PM
I looked at the logs and we killed 27 underhill pets in around 5-10 minutes of defending, all of which were being recasted and sent through doors.

This just prove that players are aware of this exploit and know they can abuse it without repercussion.

Wed 20 Jan 2021 11:05 AM by Sepplord

@hedien: I am bored and killing time, doesn't mean i am angry or hating on you guys or not relaxed.
In fact, i have stated multiple times that i want this fixed/worked around too. But again, we can go back and forth accusing each other of being too emotionally involved, i don't think that helps the discussion in any way though.

You go into psychology without even acknowledging my argument. I never attacked reasonable suggestions about the topic, nor reasonable bumps. Opening multiple threads while an active discussion is already there is just annoying.
You cherrypick "fixed" problems after enough annoyance, sorry, brain occupation...while you ignore that without the over-annoyance the issues might have been fixed earlier. There are also age old examples where the constant annoyance has led to topics being completely shut down and already implemented supportsystems have been removed (solo-teleporters for example).

All i am asking is to keep the discussion reasonable and not exxaggerate. Why is that getting so much resistance?
It should be easier than average regarding this change, as there is no huge lobby that is against this fix (unlike classchanges/nerfs where discussions get heated fast and going into exaggerations is more understandable).

Many solutions/work arounds have been proposed.
Gruenes has actively participated in the discussion and contemplated different possibilities.
Personally i believe annoying them will rather delay this getting fixed, than speed it up...but maybe i am wrong.
I do agree that "the assholes often get served fast to get them to shut up/go away" far too often, personally i won't follow that approach though (and NO, i am not calling anyone of you assholes for bumping/new threads...that would be going way too far) as i know plenty of counterexamples too. If that's your strategy i guess we just have to disagree on that.

PS: I actually did just think of a "solution" that i don't remember being mentioned so far (though i don't know if it is actually easier to code than previous ideas):
Closed doors could pulse a pet-taunt towards the inside of the keep, to overide any other commands and make the pet attack the door. This is similar to the idea to pulse DMG that kills the pets, but it removes the problem of pets lagging thorugh when sent to attack. A pet that laggs through to attack, would just be taunted by the door and do what it was sent to do anyways

Thu 21 Jan 2021 1:55 AM by Hedien

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 11:05 AM
PS: I actually did just think of a "solution" that i don't remember being mentioned so far (though i don't know if it is actually easier to code than previous ideas):
Closed doors could pulse a pet-taunt towards the inside of the keep, to overide any other commands and make the pet attack the door. This is similar to the idea to pulse DMG that kills the pets, but it removes the problem of pets lagging thorugh when sent to attack. A pet that laggs through to attack, would just be taunted by the door and do what it was sent to do anyways

Sounds good. Considering non-dmg solutions.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 4:57 PM by Astaa

Hedien wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:33 AM
albionexile wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 2:17 PM
I looked at the logs and we killed 27 underhill pets in around 5-10 minutes of defending, all of which were being recasted and sent through doors.

This just prove that players are aware of this exploit and know they can abuse it without repercussion.

It's exactly the same defending against cabba or SM pets, kill one they just cast another and stick it on /attack. But until GMs actually start watching battles then people will get away with it, exactly the same way they did by abusing the safe spots that have now been fixed.