Caravans are not worth it *FULL ANALYSIS*

Here's my experience with caravans as well as every other person I've talked to.

1. Oh cool caravans, I wonder what happens when I kill it.
2. If less than 5 people, or no healer, or no cc, proceed to die. If 8man, spend 3 minutes PvE'ing like a sitting duck in middle of road/RvR zone.
3. Kill the caravan, get nothing. Only to see many more caravans within 2-3 minutes.
4. Never kill caravans again.
5. Fight 8v8 on the road, aoe and accidentally aggro caravan.
6. Complain about the infinite stream of PvE on the main road of every RvR zone.

No one is going sit on the road of an RvR zone, PvE for 3 minutes, and risk getting assjam'd, for no reward. It's that simple. Beyond everyone's first caravan kill, I've never seen anyone voluntarily kill caravans.

Here's the caravan patch https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=2239 however I will sum it up below as it is a bit convoluted.

Current System:
Lvl 1-4 keeps upgrade automatically. No caravans.
POINT POOL: Each keep has a total point pool equal to it's level. E.g. a lvl 8 keep has a total point pool of 8. However, lvl 10 keeps have a total point pool of 20.
UPGRADING: When a keep successfully receives a caravan it is worth 1 point. Keeps lvl 5+ need it's current keep level in caravans to reach the next level. E.g. a level 6 keep needs 6 caravans to reach lvl 7. Lvl 10 keep needs 10 caravans to reach lvl 10 (except they go past 10 points and "stock up" an additional 10 caravans to reach 20 points).
DOWNGRADING: When a caravan is killed and does not successfully reach the keep, it is worth 3 points. Therefore, the keep loses 3 points from it's point pool. E.g. a lvl 8 keep, which needs 8 caravans to upgrade to the next level, has successfully received 7 caravans and therefore has 7 of 8 points. Enemy realm kills 2 caravans. Keep is still lvl 8 but now at 1/8 of it's point pool. Enemy realm kills a third caravan, the keep is now downgraded from lvl 8 to lvl 7. I don't believe the deducted points carry over, meaning the keep is now lvl 7 with 7/7 points.
*Note* Keeps downgrade 3x faster than they upgrade.

Current Reward/Thoughts:
It's an interesting system that sounds cool. I like that keeps downgrade faster than they upgrade. But if no one EVER interacts with caravans then who cares? They have little to no impact on how players play the game because they are simply not worth it. Hell, 99% of people playing phoenix don't even know how the system works or what the "reward" is. In fact, everyone I've talked to has a negative experience with caravans because of accidentally aggro'ing these PvE mobs.

Suggestions:
1. First a foremost, decrease the amount of caravans. There are simply too many on the road. The majority of people in the frontiers are there to fight other people, not PvE. Also, people intentionally run on the road to avoid PvE. Either drastically reduce the amount of caravans or take them off the main roads.
2. During i50 phase, try giving a small amount of RPs for killing caravans. RPs have always been the ultimate carrot on the stick. This, combined with a smaller amount of caravans, can possibly get people excited to see a caravan. Similar to RvR tasks it will be another incentive to get people in the RvR zone.
3. Adjust RPs for caravans accordingly. It should not be farmed or prioritized over player interaction. E.g. a lot of action out and players to kill should equal not killing caravans for RPs. If action is very slow and intermittent, oh cool a caravan let's kill it for a few RPs. If nothing comes out we'll take these keeps and force people to defend relics.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 4:02 PM by relvinian

Do caravan guards count as guards for kill tasks? Do guard kill tasks give rps?

Wed 17 Oct 2018 4:50 PM by Ardri

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Oct 2018 4:02 PM
Do caravan guards count as guards for kill tasks? Do guard kill tasks give rps?

No one knows as no one has ever been bothered to kill caravans *sarcasm*

Yes, but you would have to kill so many and they take so long to kill that it is effectively nothing. And the higher the lvl guard task, the more you have to kill. Again, not worth it.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 5:04 PM by defiasbandit

Caravans are totally silly in their current state. You see more of them than real players in somw frontiers. They should be easier to kill.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 5:55 PM by Raunz

in future we will be 51years old fighting caravan in emain.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 5:56 PM by Dominus

Caravans do count for the guard task. If it's taking you 3 min to kill a horse and 2 red guards, I wouldn't bother.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 6:00 PM by b14z3d

I think you should reward better for killing them.. as ardri pointed out no one is killing them, b/c its wasted time, and risk is not worth no reward. maybe create a separate task for strictly killing caravans, which don't count as keep guards but caravans. This way you have a separate task making it more rewarding as well as have some meaning other than a keep guard. My 2 cents worth nothing tho.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 6:02 PM by klaggorn

I for one LOVE them. I get totally excited to get inc lag, see humans moving ahead, scream inc, stop, /Monty, hit record, turn and kite, click target only to realize you just did the same thing 8 times already in the past 14 minutes and the only thing that was worth it was watching your character ride his imaginary horse.

I like the idea of reducing them, giving rps, and also love the idea of them taking alternate routes. If your goal is to stop them, you should need to find them first. Anyone who watches game of thrones knows that it's foolish to travel the king's road with a supply caravan.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 6:40 PM by relvinian

Make them aggro.

Might be handy for solos.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 6:55 PM by Brokenstring

Caravans aren't really meant for 8 mans.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 7:27 PM by defiasbandit

Please never make them aggro.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 8:01 PM by Terrorsauce

Caravans will never be a good idea here.

8 mans dont want to kill them because they will get added on by another 8 man and die.

Small groups can barely kill them and will get smashed by another group when they try to kill them.

Frontier size is to big for any small group to really go hunt them and ensure they dont get to the keep.

Who is actually going to kill them and why?

Caravans are a pointless feature and waste of time if your going to stick with OF and 1.65. Plain and simple.

In case you havnt noticed. For caravans to be worth something, keeps have to worth something. Right now Keeps are shit, no point, right a long side DF. Cant wait till relics get here and that awesome Darkness Falls reward! That will fix everything right.../s

Wed 17 Oct 2018 11:17 PM by florin

Menwynnn...

Wed 17 Oct 2018 11:23 PM by florin

I tried one on my necro - I figure I can handle 2 reds...and then the horse joined in and turned into a different party.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 12:07 AM by depth

I just don't see this becoming a thing that even casual keeptakers would enjoy taking part in, in its current state. It's obviously a very intricate system that took someone a long time to come up with and get working properly. I'd hate to see it totally removed if there was an alternative solution or adjustment that could be made to make the current system better. It is silly that they pollute the main roads, I know that makes the MOST sense given that they're wagons, but that's prime rvr real estate..

Maybe an addition of goat paths, or lesser roads could be added that don't interfere with the main road system.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 6:36 AM by

Uthred

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Oct 2018 6:40 PM
Make them aggro.

Might be handy for solos.

[attachment=0]sshot666.jpg[/attachment]

Not the smartest idea, we tested that.

Seriously, we think it is a good system. Before changing anything, we will wait for i50 or even launch. We are aware of the situation that no one really cares for them at this state of the Beta. These are the reasons why:

No one cares for keeps except if keeps are task-related.
No one needs DF atm because no one is xping (hello i50) or needs to go there to farm crafting ingredients (hello free gear merchant).
No one cares for the relics now, because we didnt put in any bonuses yet.
No one cares for the special casterguards at the relics (as they arent in yet). Killing caravans and lowering a keep before raiding it to get rid of those casterguards at the relics, is not an option yet.
No one cares for the 5% rp-bonus that your realm gets when completing the realmwide caravan-task, as everyone will be 5L9 in two days anyways.
No one cares for the keepraid-title.
No one cares for the keep score system now and starts raiding keeps to get a higher bonus from that.

Last but not least, everything will be wiped, thats why many players dont care for a realm or are still uncertain, which realm to join. They are still testing and switching realms a lot. Another reason to not care for keeps & caravans. This will change when we go live, have the 12h realm-switch-timer and most of the players will stick to one realm and start "fighting" for it.

What im trying to say is, we are still monitoring this. But at this stage of the Beta where players dont care about many things which they would care about when this server would be live, caravans may seem to be useless or not worth the effort.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 6:45 AM by defiasbandit

The look on your groupmates face when they see the enemy keep doors open and instead of an unsuspecting player, out trots a donkey and two limping guards. Not again!

btw that screenshot can not be unseen.

I just think caravans should be easier to kill.

Maybe the horse could be carrying a treasure chest that drops goodies. The horse routes could be in other areas than the main path in the frontier zones too.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 2:40 PM by Ardri

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Oct 2018 6:36 AM
Seriously, we think it is a good system. Before changing anything, we will wait for i50 or even launch. We are aware of the situation that no one really cares for them at this state of the Beta.

Overall I think it's a good system as well. But I still think unless you have an immediate reward, people are never going to kill caravans unless they are going for a realm wide relic siege. And there are still just too many caravans per minute/hour. They are more of a nuisance now than anything else imo.

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Oct 2018 6:36 AM
1. No one cares for keeps except if keeps are task-related.
2. No one needs DF atm because no one is xping (hello i50) or needs to go there to farm crafting ingredients (hello free gear merchant).
3. No one cares for the relics now, because we didnt put in any bonuses yet.
4. No one cares for the special casterguards at the relics (as they arent in yet). Killing caravans and lowering a keep before raiding it to get rid of those casterguards at the relics, is not an option yet.
5. No one cares for the 5% rp-bonus that your realm gets when completing the realmwide caravan-task, as everyone will be 5L9 in two days anyways.
6. No one cares for the keepraid-title.
7. No one cares for the keep score system now and starts raiding keeps to get a higher bonus from that.

Yes these things will be incentives totake keeps, but not necessarily impact caravan interaction.

1. This is just a fact of DAoC. The majority of players do not play to take keeps, especially empty keeps with no enemies.
2. With SI xp/gear and other exp items, DF will not be nearly as contested as it was on Uthgard. You can easily play the game and never need to go in DF.
3, 4, 6, 7: All directly keep related and incentivize people to take keeps, not necessarily kill caravans to lower a keep. Lvl 1-4 keeps irrelevant. I would argue if a keep is lvl 8 or less, it would be MUCH fast to just take the keep rather than sit at a gate waiting to kill the exact caravan for that keep. Especially when organizing more than 8 people or a battlegroup.
5. Different discussion, but I honestly think the majority of the 5% "bonuses" will just cause RP inflation. No one is going to say, "Let's go kill caravans to get 5% bonus rps!" and similarly said for the majority of the other "bonuses."

Thu 18 Oct 2018 5:20 PM by defiasbandit

I just think most players do not really care about taking unoccupied keeps over and over just for a 5% rp buff that lasts for a day. I think keep takes have sort of become trivialized in general.

I feel the long term tasks are not that fun. It is just a big grind for 1 day 5% rp bonuses. You sometimes see more caravans than players in some of the frontiers, and they are largely ignored.
There are just too many of them, and it might be better if they took routes off main roads more.

I think they look cool, but what if instead they carried a lootable chest or something so you get immediately rewards for killing them. I think they should be killable by small groups. Killing a caravan just to fill the kill 1000 caravan task is unfulfilling.

Thu 18 Oct 2018 9:12 PM by defiasbandit

I would make caravans drop chests full of gold, feathers, bounty points, wood, potions etc.. Make the reward immediate for killing them. Think of it as one realm stealing the keep resources of another realm. Caravan killing can be a full time role like Robin Hood. Deny enemy keeps resources and loot the spoils for yourself.

Allow them to be killed by small groups. They are way too strong right now. Reduce the number of them, and have them take more indirect routes across the frontiers so you have to hunt for them. Maybe there can be a caravan kill tracker on the herald or realmwide announcements that a keep has been downgraded.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 3:34 PM by Ardri

I agree with more immediate rewards. Something needs to be changed to make them more enticing.

But if they up the reward, then I think the difficulty to kill them is fine as it is. I think you need at least 4+ with a cc class to kill them right now? If they make it any easier then people will literally start farming caravans rather than fighting players. After all they do downgrade keeps 3x faster than they are upgraded. If small man's can easily kill them then every keep will be lvl 4.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 4:00 PM by defiasbandit

I agree with you, but I feel it is better to allow small mans to kill them. You want players stopping these caravans. Getting your caravans to reach your keep shouldn't be so easy. If you have players farming caravans, then enemy players can defend the caravans and farm the players. It creates a cycle of RvR action. There can be serverwide announcements that a caravan is under attack or killed. This creates RvR and the caravans are in all frontiers so this can happen anywhere.

So what if the rewards are really good? They should be. That is how you incentivize players. Killing caravans should be a big deal. It should be something a small group can kill also. Too much stuff in RvR requires full groups and it is not right. Controlling those supply lines during the time of a relic raid should matter.

I think that the Phoenix devs have added a lot of neat mechanics and systems to RvR here. However, many of these systems just don't offer good enough rewards or incentivizes. You want to reward players right away for completing something. If your realm has to take 100 keeps to complete a long term realm task, and your realm is only 15/100, why bother with it if you are still 85 short? If your realm is 98/100, then players are way more inclined to take a few keeps so they can get the reward. The reward is only 5% rp bonus for 24 hours, which also doesn't seem like much of a reward for all that work.

There just seems to be a lack of immediate and appropriate rewards for a lot of the RvR here. There needs to be more to do than just RP grinding. That gets boring for a lot of players. If there are players that just wanna be like Robin Hood and kill caravans then why not?

Fri 19 Oct 2018 4:37 PM by Ardri

At that point you're turning every RvR zone into a caravan PvE zone for everyone. My duo got killed while trying to take out the juicy caravan treasure chest? Off to an obscure location in pennine mountains to farm caravans.

The focus for RvR zones should be player interaction, not PvE mobs. Also, primary use of caravans is meant to be for keeps, not a mini game for duos/trios.

I think your idea would be better for a weekend event where people search for X mob to give a sweet Y reward. Similar to the dopplegangers that live had. Really, caravans just need a little bit of something to make them "worth it," but nothing too crazy.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 5:01 PM by florin

Ardri wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 4:37 PM
At that point you're turning every RvR zone into a caravan PvE zone for everyone. My duo got killed while trying to take out the juicy caravan treasure chest? Off to an obscure location in pennine mountains to farm caravans.

The focus for RvR zones should be player interaction, not PvE mobs. Also, primary use of caravans is meant to be for keeps, not a mini game for duos/trios.

I think your idea would be better for a weekend event where people search for X mob to give a sweet Y reward. Similar to the dopplegangers that live had. Really, caravans just need a little bit of something to make them "worth it," but nothing too crazy.

I think it’s about incentive. I would take out my necro and do some pve in rvr area and get ganked if the incentive and experience is worth it.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 5:27 PM by defiasbandit

The focus of RvR zones is taking keeps and killing guards and players. Caravans play right into that. They create RvR action all over.

You need big incentives to get players to do stuff. The reason players show up to realm tasks in Pennine Mountains is to earn the free 3000 rp bonus. It is about immediate rewards.

Offering alternative and rewarding playstyles in RvR is important. If players want to hunt dowm caravans then why not let them? Why force them to afk farm in Darkness Falls to earn feathers or spend hours beating down doors of undefended keeps?

It is about creating RvR in every frontier by incentivizing it.

So many of the RvR tasks are just boring and unrewarding. You want players to complete a task or mission and get rewarded right away. You want to reward players immediately. Faster rewards. Players want to logon complete something amd get rewarded for it.

This server needs more options and bigger rewards. The caravans are an integral part of keeps and even relic keeps. They should be highly contested.

Fri 19 Oct 2018 10:57 PM by Ombrix

Lot of people here talk about solo , small man ?
Wait ? Did i miss understanding something ? I saw only 8mans/zerg around . 🤔

And when i see 2 or 4 crazy guys trying to go out of safe-keep , they died in 5 sec by 54 stealthers at gate 🤨 or 8mans just pass by and rape them 🤕

Only 8mans is allowed to “ play ” here right now. Small /solo you are 95% right when you think to die when you see the mile gate x)

EXCEPT IF YOU PLAY STEALTHER... 🤭

Sat 20 Oct 2018 9:04 AM by Druth

Just make the caravan horse count as a hastener, then I maybe wont be as annoyed when I see them.