Alb Tanker Buffs

Started 23 Dec 2020
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
This is the "opening statement" / staff suggestions for the discussions regarding the alb tanker buff part of the 8v8 balance changes with community involvement.

The core "tanker" setup would be: Merc Merc Arms Sorc Theu Cler Cler Minst
Variations include swapping 1 cleric for friar, arms for pala, 1 merc for pala, 1 merc for necro, 1 merc for cab, theu for necro or theu for cab

The first problem is that people want a peeler where arms is just the best option, people also want the very strong full tank ras. At the same time, tanker with only end 3 is an actual problem. The next issue is people want the other resists but a friar is, in terms of healing capabilities as well as ras, a worse choice than cleric. The final issue is merc and the lack of a back snare.

The starting point for the discussions on how to "fix" it would be this:
The 21 dw style penumbra will be removed from the back chain and become a back opener with a snare component and a growth rate reduction to normal back opener levels.

There are imo two class candidates that could be buffed accordingly to resolve the other issues. The first candidate is the paladin and the other the friar.

For the friar I see potential that isn't too far fetched and will earn the least resistance, the assumption here is the replacement of 1 cleric with the friar:
The non controversial, or at least less controversial, change here would be to add a group endurance consumption reduction buff to the friar. This would resolve the endurance issue.
The other issue is the healing capabilities, the most pressing issue here is how easy it is to lock down the friar resulting in zero output, this would be fine if the friar were just the third support as is the case with warden or to a lesser extent bard/shaman, however, in the most likely resulting setup the friar will act as the second healer. I could see a low 25% single target instant on a 2 minute cooldown that cannot be used on the friar itself. Alternatively, to really drive it home that this is just a crutch to allow the friar to be a viable cleric replacement, it could be a 50% instant that's reduced by 25% per primary healer in group, however, that seems rather unlikely to be necessary.

The paladin change would go in a different direction and assume a replacement of the minstrel by the paladin, to make this possible the paladin would receive a speed 5 chant. This would make it viable to include a paladin while at the same time not being a clear cut albion buff as the friar route would be as the utility of the minstrel would be lost.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:38 AM by Marneux
When you said changes on paladin or friar, at first i thought you would say something like adding celerity chant to paladin to make it more appealing in the grp, but i would never expect that plot twist.

May i ask why a simply change in adding celerity on paladin is not viable option? instead of doing those crazy changes.

Cheers.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:39 AM by labra
For the friar, what about tweaking the offensive heal proc?
A higher chance to proc, in a melee setup, could be a good thing I believe
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:49 AM by SlowMo
group endurance consumption reduction buff to the friar and Heal styles would make him a great peeler/supporter
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:52 AM by Valaraukar
LOL!

This is getting ridicolous 😂


So this is how it works here.... Nerf everyone when the issue is faction-related. Buff albion when the nerf may affect that part more than the other. Gooooood job!

So we'll see speed 5 on thanes? 😂 😂 😂
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:04 AM by Idra
Imo, just put 30% instead of 15% proc chance rate on friar's heal proc, and set base value of heal chant of pally from 48hp to 96hp and it will be balanced.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:04 AM by Sepplord
Going to be jnteracting what the 8vs8 people giving constructive feedback regarding this will say, personally i am not in that Scene enough to comment.

I just hope whatever balance Changes are made don't destroy smallman. You are trying to make those playstyles better playable but i fear that some suggestions (while sounding sensible when looking at a fullgroup) don't make sense when looking at smaller groupsizes and what is possible to Slot in a 3/4/5 man group in the respective realms
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:06 AM by easytoremember
Does Mins lose speed upon Pala picking it up?

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:52 AM
So this is how it works here.... Nerf everyone when the issue is faction-related. Buff albion when the nerf may affect that part more than the other. Gooooood job!
see https://forum.playphoenix.online/server/announcements/27894-more-balance-changes-with-community-involvement
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:07 AM by evert
Idra wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:04 AM
Imo, just put 30% instead of 15% proc chance rate on friar's heal proc, and set base value of heal chant of pally from 48hp to 96hp and it will be balanced.

No change to groups and makes them ridiculous solo, great suggestion
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:07 AM by VonSchneiderr
I am normally always on board with everything you do, but your suggestion of giving Palas Speed 5 makes me really wonder what you guys smoked today
Pls let me know because seems to be good stuff!
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:08 AM by MiaAngel
We may as well all move to alb
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:09 AM by genova
Add speed 5 paladin and remove speed 5 Minstrel?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:14 AM by hyshash
merc: a hib like backsnare with a 12sec dura and comparable growth/tohit is everything the merc needs to be viable it doesnt have to be as overtuned as conquerer

friar: i kinda like the proposed changes even tho i think the endu reduction would make a pala/friar combo within an alb setup redudant ... another way to increase the friars healing capabilitys would be to go live like and let him cast his grp hot while hes moving and reduce the mana cost by like 2/3 (the current cost deletes it for any usage)
with the buff to vr/di a friar doesnt realy need another insta heal since you will have 4 within a cler/friar combo (grp-i, single-i, vr,di) and melee setups are allways about stability you mostly have to heal over an extended period of time compared to a caster setup ... the hot with certain buffs could help with that

pala: the palas and the mins job in a grp are vastly different and to give up on a pet, cc, heavy rupts, sos, (2nd)demezz to gain a pala ... i kinda doubt any grp would go for that
to buff the pala means to evaluate his role within a grp and buff him within that spectrum ... since you can either take him as a def tank or as a assist dps you have to buff him in either direction ...
for him to be a comparable def tank to an arms he has to gain stoi no matter what and most likely more dura upon his backsnare since its harder to backsnare then to anytimer snare (even tho not that much harder) and even then i dont know if thats enough to bring him up on par with an arms
for him to be a dd he needs more dmg (some1 in this forum proposed a spirits based dd proc upon a style chain) or more dps based utility ... the elephant in the room would be a cele chant but since that could be over the top maybe smth like a style chain with a 20 sec 500 range 28% cele grp buff as the 3 part (much like the vw's style chain)?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:14 AM by Wushu
Dark Age of Albion ?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:15 AM by Marneux
With speed 5 you mean 204 value?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:27 AM by Ormilig
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
The first problem is that people want a peeler where arms is just the best option, people also want the very strong full tank ras. At the same time, tanker with only end 3 is an actual problem. The next issue is people want the other resists but a friar is, in terms of healing capabilities as well as ras, a worse choice than cleric. The final issue is merc and the lack of a back snare.



Add Endureg4 for Albs. Or lower the Style Endu costs for non stealther classes.
Pala has enough stuff added to him to make him VIABLE - not OPTIMAL - as a def tank. But since 95% of the people just wanna know "WHATS BEST XY" they dont even try stuff out.

If people wanna have all resist buffs they have to choose a friar over a cleric just like everyother realm has to make decision on what they want and what they skip. Alb chars have so much utility already, giving them more isn't the correct way in my opinion.

Mercs dont need a back snare - they have a side snare which you can land from basicly anywhere on phoenix. Or they can go for thrust spec and have an insane peel.


gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
For the friar I see potential that isn't too far fetched and will earn the least resistance, the assumption here is the replacement of 1 cleric with the friar:
The non controversial, or at least less controversial, change here would be to add a group endurance consumption reduction buff to the friar. This would resolve the endurance issue.
The other issue is the healing capabilities, the most pressing issue here is how easy it is to lock down the friar resulting in zero output, this would be fine if the friar were just the third support as is the case with warden or to a lesser extent bard/shaman, however, in the most likely resulting setup the friar will act as the second healer. I could see a low 25% single target instant on a 2 minute cooldown that cannot be used on the friar itself. Alternatively, to really drive it home that this is just a crutch to allow the friar to be a viable cleric replacement, it could be a 50% instant that's reduced by 25% per primary healer in group, however, that seems rather unlikely to be necessary.

A Friar can peel for himself for a ridiculous duration of 27sec - why he has that on 18 staff is beyond my comprehension. Its totaly OP for the amount of spec points you spend - even half of that duration would still be strong. for example the side snare from the slash specline is on 21 with 12sec duration - oh and even his backsnare (34staff) has only 15sec duration -
If he still manages to be out of position he needs to change his style of gameplay - you dont rush in like a mad man if you wanna prioritize healing.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:31 AM by Hangel
I think friar is a good healer only miss the instant single but not a big problem, hot and spread heal proc are fine, heal are fine, snare staff are fine and resist are good too.
I think only change can be lower the 3 sec ns heal level so there are more hybrid spec possible and may be add some RA like BOF.
About pally I think too speed 5 is op and I prefer a celerity song
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:34 AM by MeatBicycle
I really don't understand why the Merc absolutely needs a backsnare, other classes don't have that either and it works just fine.

Cele is just not a good idea since Albion has the massive AF debuff. In combination this is way too much.

As others have said, the other realms also have to make sacrifices for the resi buffs. Why should Albion get everything here without problems?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:40 AM by Eoril
Friar needs the bard heal group to be a decent replacement of cleric (remove that useless HoT if you want)
Side peel is crazy... so 27 sec > 14 sec could be a decent nerf if spec heal grp is given

celerity song on paladin seems the most logical thing to do for me
but hib would need celerity too... where ? hibs tankers are really strong enough... maybe on a caster ? on menta mentalism or on a verdant animist pet

and finally if alb and hib are upgraded with celerity, midgard needs a real boost for mage comp
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:18 PM by Tambourine
So, you guys nerf caster albs, and now you want to upgrade the tank alb setups?

I think we should just remove 2/3 of the existing classes.

Let’s just remove hib and mid completely.

Let us chose between green red or blue Albion and chose between 5 classes.

Sorc minst cleric pala and merc.

Mirror matches all the time.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:24 PM by Estrema
in a server that survive with a eu prime time with zerg bg you make patch for to make happy the 4 people who play 8vs8 creating serious problems in a realm like that of hibernia, and then complain if 200 people decide to move from hib to alb in a short time, kill the server because when from 8 to 24 cet they will turn 500 alb and 100 hib there is no game for anyone
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:31 PM by Ele
First of all, I appreciate the effort you put into shaking up the current meta. If there are no changes, the game gets stale, and some tweaks here and there can be refreshing.
We ran different setups on alb over phoenix's uptime, and the tanker really is the one lacking most, so thumbs up for adressing this.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
The 21 dw style penumbra will be removed from the back chain and become a back opener with a snare component and a growth rate reduction to normal back opener levels.
Good and necessary change, without this an alb tanker has difficulties to get its main dps to do its job. Yes, there is a side peel, but tbh, zerks and bms win by sticking a target and spaming back snare and deal some dmg while doing so. Merc gets en par with its counterparts this way, so yay on that change.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
The non controversial, or at least less controversial, change here would be to add a group endurance consumption reduction buff to the friar. This would resolve the endurance issue.
Sounds reasonable. The problem I see is that this could drive the paly out of the only setup where it has some justification without further tweaks to the class.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
The other issue is the healing capabilities [...]
The suggestions sound fine, adding utility without breaking the game, but I'm not sure if this really is a problem?

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
The paladin change would go in a different direction and assume a replacement of the minstrel by the paladin [...]
Gonna quote Hysh on that, good points made there:
hyshash wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:14 AM
the palas and the mins job in a grp are vastly different and to give up on a pet, cc, heavy rupts, sos, (2nd)demezz to gain a pala ... i kinda doubt any grp would go for that
to buff the pala means to evaluate his role within a grp and buff him within that spectrum ... since you can either take him as a def tank or as a assist dps you have to buff him in either direction ...
Just throwing in some ideas how to improve paly as either a dps or a def tank: an offensive proc, 15% celerity 350 radius, small base heals, increse of heal chant, stoicism.
I hope we as the community can figure out a succesful way to discuss the various suggestions and come to a satisfactory solution to keep the game we all love interesting.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:42 PM by evert
Just thinking out loud here, make pala heal chant a spreadheal, ie it heals for current value x number of group members but directed like a spreadheal? Any other increase will affect solo.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:51 PM by tonosutono84
I do disagree with these suggested changes.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:55 PM by Hangel
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:34 AM
I really don't understand why the Merc absolutely needs a backsnare, other classes don't have that either and it works just fine.

Cele is just not a good idea since Albion has the massive AF debuff. In combination this is way too much.

As others have said, the other realms also have to make sacrifices for the resi buffs. Why should Albion get everything here without problems?

So Mid what sacrifices for all resist? you play without a healer or shammy in mid setup?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:58 PM by genova
Estrema wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:24 PM
in a server that survive with a eu prime time with zerg bg you make patch for to make happy the 4 people who play 8vs8 creating serious problems in a realm like that of hibernia, and then complain if 200 people decide to move from hib to alb in a short time, kill the server because when from 8 to 24 cet they will turn 500 alb and 100 hib there is no game for anyone

And firstly mid going to hib..
Remove mid realm so?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:00 PM by Hector
Far too radical overhaul proposed once again. 8v8 balance can be achieved with only a few small steps that don’t radically change the role of a class.

Suggestions:
-alb tanker does NOT need a buff.
-mid casters need baseline spirit nuke
-hib casters need enchanter with baseline root and mentalist with the OF RA STT
-Merc needs a backsnare
-Thane only level 50 sword style should proc like Levi

That’s it. Please don’t make the paladin a speed class and please don’t give crazy toys to classes that don’t need them. Preserve the class uniqueness and just make small changes like these to balance things out. I also would close by saying I find it a bit peculiar that you guys want to nerf hib tankers but gave bard a root. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense from 8v8 perspective.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:02 PM by Astaa
If the paladin gets speed then there is no remaining argument as to why mincers can't finally be fixed?

Split speed from from charm by way of adding a music spell line

Instruments would include songs, ablative pulse and mez
A new spec line, music, would include charms and DDs

Maybe add some spec points but not enough for it to not change the class but enough so that they can only realistically have speed and a yellow pet. If they want red/purple then they need to drop speed.

That would be good!
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:06 PM by Kaziera
good and needed changes. It was for too long time now always the same viable groups. always alb caster, hib tanker or mid hybrid was boring.

Concerning possible changes:

Alb Tank: Pal: Increase DA and Healchant, Stoi, Offensive proc, Snare duration. Pls dont buff the backsnare, make it hard and buff the sidensare on 2h and slash. Friar: change grouphot to menta style hot with good range. Fits the theme of church albion bla and is 1 spell that should work even under pressure. Plottwist: add maybe a snare nuke to cleric smite line?

Hib caster: Eld: dont touch, has really enough tasks as is. Ment: Amnesia to Mentalism line. Fits the theme and gives the setup the needed range. Ench: improve the range of the instant dehaste debuffs.

Mid Caster: bring SM mezz in line with other mezz duration. Maybe increase range of stat debuffs. Add energy nukes to caster baselines. Make thane energy debuff reliable.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:06 PM by MeatBicycle
Hangel wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:55 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:34 AM
I really don't understand why the Merc absolutely needs a backsnare, other classes don't have that either and it works just fine.

Cele is just not a good idea since Albion has the massive AF debuff. In combination this is way too much.

As others have said, the other realms also have to make sacrifices for the resi buffs. Why should Albion get everything here without problems?

So Mid what sacrifices for all resist? you play without a healer or shammy in mid setup?

It's not just about having resi buffs, but also how high they are. If anything, the shaman reaches high resi buffs (without the chance to have pbae disease and the new ns cure). The friar can do that easily. Btw mid has to play with 2 healers and 1 sham, so you could take 2 clerics and friar as well.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:08 PM by Valaraukar
So alb getting reg end and celerity.... Skalds get a red pet? Pac healers get 1875 quick cast aoe mezz? Bd get af debuff? And above all.... Mid tanks get plate?
Don't think it's going to happen so all these changes are just a really bad idea, in a server that is already too much albion sided (and not only in rvr / 8man but also in pve farming / raids and numbers are clear about this)
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:13 PM by opossum12
Endo redux buff on friar is interesting.

For the paladin, a lot of people refer to a celerity chant because that's what they gave him on Live. However, this would kinda be unfair to hib that already has the strongest tank comp.

An alternative idea for the paladin could be a groupe haste buff.

Groupe haste, 500 radius pbae (to require a bit of coordination), 15 second duration, 1 min cooldown.
Lvl 15 - 5%
Lvl 25 - 15%
Lvl 35 - 25%
Lvl 45 - 35%

Haste over celerity, as I think (not 100% sure) that if haste makes you go above swing speed cap you lose dps. So it would be the most useful when swinging very slow weapons (just happens that alb has a 6.0 2H and polearm)

This is to add a bit of an element of spike, but on a rut. At high rank, a paladin with high WoC could really burst a target down, could be interesting.

Another significant improvement tonthe paladin would be putting the insta taunt on a 15 sec rut (currently at 30 sec) to put it at the same rut as the champ insta dd.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:13 PM by opossum12
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:08 PM
So alb getting reg end and celerity.... Skalds get a red pet? Pac healers get 1875 quick cast aoe mezz? Bd get af debuff? And above all.... Mid tanks get plate?
Don't think it's going to happen so all these changes are just a really bad idea, in a server that is already too much albion sided (and not only in rvr / 8man but also in pve farming / raids and numbers are clear about this)

Mid only player cries when another realm's unplayed comp gets looked at.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:15 PM by Astaa
This is the first of a few proposed changes.

Just wait, jesus, no wonder the devs get fed up of people complaining. Evaluate the proposed changes along side other changes.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:18 PM by Ormilig
Hangel wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:55 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:34 AM
I really don't understand why the Merc absolutely needs a backsnare, other classes don't have that either and it works just fine.

Cele is just not a good idea since Albion has the massive AF debuff. In combination this is way too much.

As others have said, the other realms also have to make sacrifices for the resi buffs. Why should Albion get everything here without problems?

So Mid what sacrifices for all resist? you play without a healer or shammy in mid setup?

For example: I play a aug healer and decided to skip yellow energy resist to get higher mending and a better major/greater heal.
Some Shamans go for red heat resist, some others dont - with the new NS-Heal we might see more shamans with yellow heat so that they can grab the 6sec heal.
I've seen hib groups without a warden and many hib groups decide to only have 1 druid instead of the "classic" 1nurt + 1 nature druid.

Also I rather meant that each realm has to decide which utility they grab and which they dont, not necessarily regarding resist i give you that. And those decisions have to matter, else you can just grab everything without thinking.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:27 PM by Fugax
I thought the Original idea behind DAOC was to have 3 realms of faction, and each ream have special characters that oppose those of a different realm. Seems we are turning this into a Millennial "its not fair" game... what the heck is going on...
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:27 PM by Idra
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:06 PM
It's not just about having resi buffs, but also how high they are. If anything, the shaman reaches high resi buffs (without the chance to have pbae disease and the new ns cure). The friar can do that easily. Btw mid has to play with 2 healers and 1 sham, so you could take 2 clerics and friar as well.

So albs will run 2 clerics,1friar,1 minst for speed,1pally for endo and a sorc for mezz... 6 slots...hopefully we got 2 slots left for dps WOOT!
For same utility mid need 3 slots (sham+heal+skald) and hib 2 (bard+druid)
Alb need a third healing classe,and imo, pally's refresh boost is the best thing to do, while pally get acces to RA's to increase it and his job is to def back line.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:27 PM by DJ2000
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
The core "tanker" setup would be: Merc Merc Arms Sorc Theu Cler Cler Minst
Variations include swapping 1 cleric for friar, arms for pala, 1 merc for pala, 1 merc for necro, 1 merc for cab, theu for necro or theu for cab

The first problem is that people want a peeler where arms is just the best option, people also want the very strong full tank ras.
At the same time, tanker with only end 3 is an actual problem.
The next issue is people want the other resists but a friar is, in terms of healing capabilities as well as ras, a worse choice than cleric.
The final issue is merc and the lack of a back snare.

Ok, First things first. What i dont really like about this is: Custom Building a Tank Grp Setup for Albion. The mere thought opens up a myriad of problems and complaints why you are not doing this for Hib/Mid XYZ...
Secondly, custom-building one like this makes any other variation to the "voted" setup obsolete...

What are the Goals that an "Alb Tanker" is supposed to do?
Mirror Hib Tank? mirror Mid Tank?
The opening Post is a bit lacking to give any kind of "background" as to what is supposed to be accomplished.
What are the Hib Tanker Strenghts? Do we want the same for Albion?
What are the Mid Tanker Strenghts? Do we want the same for Albion?
Is Albion supposed to have its own Strenghts? or not?

Why is the Reaver not mentioned?
Paladin, Friar, Arms, Merc and Reaver, maybe even a Scout, should be all candidates.
Minst, Sorc and Cleric can't be dropped. So that leave 5 spots to fill up with, or 4 if you want 2 clerics.
Theu is the only one with PBT
Theu and Cab have BA.

Alb Tanker will be missing something? That is something you have to live with when you have 3 distinctive Realms with their own set of Classes.
The other Realms Tank setups have also their downsides and miss certain classes or abilities. Why does the Alb Tank grp has to have everything? No, they dont. I know you are not trying to give them everything, but you have to focus on what there already is for Albion and enhance it, and not try to revamp it into something else.

Example 1: Cleric, Friar, Theu, Sorc, Minst, Reav, Reav, Pala/Arms. - Rupt and Damage
Example 2: Cleric, Cleric, Theu, Sorc, Minst, Reav, Friar, Scout - off. Friar, scout peeler
Example 3: Cleric, Friar, Sorc, Minst, Cab, Merc, Merc, Reav, - Friar is peeler
Example 4: Cleric, Cleric, Friar, Sorc, Minst, Arms, Arms, Pala - off. Friar, Pala is peeler
Example 5: Cleric, Friar, Cab, Sorc, Minst, Necro, Merc, Merc - Necro is peeler

Are any of the examples "the" setup to got for? No, obviously they lack certain things like 2nd clerics, BA PBT or overall rupt/damage, but that is the point. Try to infuse some variance into the setups instead of forcing "the one" into albion. enhance some aspects to make them better at certain setups, instead to make them obsolete.
Changing the already available classes into something else will just end up in mess. Try to make Alb setups to have certain strenghts they can actually go for, and not try to get rid of shortcomings by overstuffing or changing classes even more.

(above examples are just for examples sake and are not me advocating them for Albion to run them as is)
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:28 PM by Centenario
Writing from my phone:
- paladin, minstrel, friar, theurg, mercenary, reaver, wizard are IMO problematic classes for alb RvR.
- I like the suggestion to give speed to paladin, it shows that we are serious and open minded!

Friar:
IMO if you compare friar to shaman and healer, to warden, bard and Druid. The main issue with Friar and which is shared by warden, is the lack of range interrupts. When you are full support you need to be able to have an impact from range, to counter casters. The second lacking friar ability is utility when focused (insta heals, insta CC, ranged CC).
To fix friar I suggest to give him a ranged ability without CD to be casted on enemy. If we also think about PvE and instances I could see the friar getting access to a cold based DD spell: exorcism , make it a spec ability in the healing tree. Most people will use the first level spell for interrupt (caster range).
For CC to avoid or escape tight situation, he needs an insta Disease pbaoe like the shaman (maybe Friar’s Brew) and to be able to counter melee train before they are on his ass he should get access to a range castable root, like Druid and bard and shaman and healer.
If you disagree that these are necessary changes to make him a real support class, then you want him to become a peeler/dps do you would have to give him access to the shield line, more range interrupts like the champion, but Albion already got enough of that so I think to go full support is better.
Warden has good utility he has bubble, speed mainly. I think the friar should have a defining ability, right now it’s the heal proc but it has very low value. A high value utility, which could also make him useful in PvE would be to give him debuffs str/con and dex/qui, from caster range, and remove them from the sorc. Do the same with eldritch/warden and shaman/spirit master (spirit master would need a buff)
Finally for the healing ability, I’d suggest to make evade ability tied to the staff spec, to prevent a full support build to have too good evade, then give access to the group heal ability you wanted for paladin: 30 sec group wide 10% heal (something like that) and a single target insta heal similar to the cleric, but make the cleric Instaheal to give a 1min immunity to receiving instaheal from another class.

This is top of mind opinion. I will write about other classes too.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:47 PM by Beeblebrox
Rather an either friar or Paladin, I would rather see both buffed in minor ways to make them both more viable in 8v8. Rather than switch Paladin for arms, switch Paladin for Merc . Improve Pala's heal proc. Several of the suggested improvements already mentioned for Friar sound decent to me to improve healing although I would like to see some kind of offensive heal proc in staff spec line. Perhaps just giving friar more spec points would be enough.

Really some kind of player testing of proposed changes should be considered. All the suggested changes are significant changes. I expect the devs do test proposed changes but they aren't typical players. Perhaps resistance to changes could be reduced this way.

In the end, I don't think it's possible to really balance 8x8 or the realms as a whole unless everyone plays the same classes with the same abilities. No one has been successful yet at doing so have they? I would rather look to make the game more entertaining and interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the newer classes implemented although I don't care for Mauler or the Minotaur race since they are same across realms. Opening TOA in some form without artifacts or ML levels would be ok. Special events more often would be good, I think. If you want to change classes, there are classes that are hard to get in groups cause no one wants to play them. Healer, minst, sorc come to mind. Perhaps making them simpler to play as you have done to some extent with minst would help? Ultimately, with no changes the game will die a slow death. Of course, it can die a quick death with bad changes that aren't fixed.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:55 PM by Hangel
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:06 PM
Hangel wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:55 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:34 AM
I really don't understand why the Merc absolutely needs a backsnare, other classes don't have that either and it works just fine.

Cele is just not a good idea since Albion has the massive AF debuff. In combination this is way too much.

As others have said, the other realms also have to make sacrifices for the resi buffs. Why should Albion get everything here without problems?

So Mid what sacrifices for all resist? you play without a healer or shammy in mid setup?

It's not just about having resi buffs, but also how high they are. If anything, the shaman reaches high resi buffs (without the chance to have pbae disease and the new ns cure). The friar can do that easily. Btw mid has to play with 2 healers and 1 sham, so you could take 2 clerics and friar as well.

3 support on Albion is a no sense bro, so if you put a friar instead of cleric he need 41 heal for 3s ns and you have bad resist than a 42/46 shammy spec
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:57 PM by MeatBicycle
Idra wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:27 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:06 PM
It's not just about having resi buffs, but also how high they are. If anything, the shaman reaches high resi buffs (without the chance to have pbae disease and the new ns cure). The friar can do that easily. Btw mid has to play with 2 healers and 1 sham, so you could take 2 clerics and friar as well.

So albs will run 2 clerics,1friar,1 minst for speed,1pally for endo and a sorc for mezz... 6 slots...hopefully we got 2 slots left for dps WOOT!
For same utility mid need 3 slots (sham+heal+skald) and hib 2 (bard+druid)
Alb need a third healing classe,and imo, pally's refresh boost is the best thing to do, while pally get acces to RA's to increase it and his job is to def back line.

For the same utility as a grp with sorc and minstrel mids need far more classes than that (Rupt, Debuffs, Dmg, Pets...). Btw you forgot that mid have to play with 2 healers. Basic setup is Pac Healer (CC/Rupt, emergency heal), Aug Healer, Aug/Cave Sham (btw poor heals and only 1k endu buff range compared to 2k endu chant from pally) and Skald, so its at least 4 slots. Otherwise you don't have main cc or no heal. Now you need a peeler for your mid setup in addition while your alb setup already has one. Pretty sure that the difference is not that huge.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:58 PM by biGGio
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
This is the "opening statement" / staff suggestions for the discussions regarding the alb tanker buff part of the 8v8 balance changes with community involvement.

The core "tanker" setup would be: Merc Merc Arms Sorc Theu Cler Cler Minst
Variations include swapping 1 cleric for friar, arms for pala, 1 merc for pala, 1 merc for necro, 1 merc for cab, theu for necro or theu for cab

The first problem is that people want a peeler where arms is just the best option, people also want the very strong full tank ras. At the same time, tanker with only end 3 is an actual problem. The next issue is people want the other resists but a friar is, in terms of healing capabilities as well as ras, a worse choice than cleric. The final issue is merc and the lack of a back snare.

The starting point for the discussions on how to "fix" it would be this:
The 21 dw style penumbra will be removed from the back chain and become a back opener with a snare component and a growth rate reduction to normal back opener levels.

There are imo two class candidates that could be buffed accordingly to resolve the other issues. The first candidate is the paladin and the other the friar.

For the friar I see potential that isn't too far fetched and will earn the least resistance, the assumption here is the replacement of 1 cleric with the friar:
The non controversial, or at least less controversial, change here would be to add a group endurance consumption reduction buff to the friar. This would resolve the endurance issue.
The other issue is the healing capabilities, the most pressing issue here is how easy it is to lock down the friar resulting in zero output, this would be fine if the friar were just the third support as is the case with warden or to a lesser extent bard/shaman, however, in the most likely resulting setup the friar will act as the second healer. I could see a low 25% single target instant on a 2 minute cooldown that cannot be used on the friar itself. Alternatively, to really drive it home that this is just a crutch to allow the friar to be a viable cleric replacement, it could be a 50% instant that's reduced by 25% per primary healer in group, however, that seems rather unlikely to be necessary.

The paladin change would go in a different direction and assume a replacement of the minstrel by the paladin, to make this possible the paladin would receive a speed 5 chant. This would make it viable to include a paladin while at the same time not being a clear cut albion buff as the friar route would be as the utility of the minstrel would be lost.

Dear god please don't buff friars anymore. Self buffs, great ras, the most power efficient heal, longest snare in the game. If anything a nerf to friar from 27s snare to 19s snare on their side style would be great.

They already have a group proc heal - rumor has it in a full tanker a merc healed for 30k over the course of rvr. Your core alb tanker is completely incorrect as well.

Arms/reaver/sorc/theurg/friar/cleric/minst - insert last tank class.

Insert an endo reduction like on live with friar and it's too much. There would be no need for paladins then. Literally no need lol.

Absolutely cannot buff friars in one area w/o taking something away. If they receive any buffs that 27s side snare needs to be moved down to 14s like the blades style in hib. No healer should be able to snare off themselves like that.

If you want to talk about alb tankers, talk about how to include paladins besides just endo. I'm a fan of celerity. I don't know if it needs to be 2005 celerity delves with alb tanks 2 rounding everything again, but maybe green celerity for pallies/warden. I've never seen friar be an issue tho unless the player doesn't realize they're replacing the role of the cleric and are meleeing? but that doesnt mean they deserve an insta heal lol
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:59 PM by MeatBicycle
Hangel wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:55 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:06 PM
Hangel wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:55 PM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:34 AM
I really don't understand why the Merc absolutely needs a backsnare, other classes don't have that either and it works just fine.

Cele is just not a good idea since Albion has the massive AF debuff. In combination this is way too much.

As others have said, the other realms also have to make sacrifices for the resi buffs. Why should Albion get everything here without problems?

So Mid what sacrifices for all resist? you play without a healer or shammy in mid setup?

It's not just about having resi buffs, but also how high they are. If anything, the shaman reaches high resi buffs (without the chance to have pbae disease and the new ns cure). The friar can do that easily. Btw mid has to play with 2 healers and 1 sham, so you could take 2 clerics and friar as well.

3 support on Albion is a no sense bro, so if you put a friar instead of cleric he need 41 heal for 3s ns and you have bad resist than a 42/46 shammy spec

what are you talking? friar can spec 40 mend for 3 sec ns and 49 buff while going for 18 staff for the sidesnare.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:02 PM by Valaraukar
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:13 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:08 PM
So alb getting reg end and celerity.... Skalds get a red pet? Pac healers get 1875 quick cast aoe mezz? Bd get af debuff? And above all.... Mid tanks get plate?
Don't think it's going to happen so all these changes are just a really bad idea, in a server that is already too much albion sided (and not only in rvr / 8man but also in pve farming / raids and numbers are clear about this)


Mid only player cries when another realm's unplayed comp gets looked at.


It is unplayed because the other available setup, the caster one, is largely overperforming. And has been so for months, so we now have alb fgs with caster setup at RR10+
The alb tank train is awesome, they also have a hecking af debuff and plate on peelers... And it needs to be buffed. It's ridicolous. The only reason why it is not played is because the caster setup is better yet, making alb overall OP compared to hib and mid (especially mid). Sheer numbers say so, this is a fact, I don't believe that almost 50% of the entire server population play on Albion only because of the nice graphic of the capital city...
And they need a buff?? Don't make me laugh
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:10 PM by Kaziera
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:02 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:13 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:08 PM
So alb getting reg end and celerity.... Skalds get a red pet? Pac healers get 1875 quick cast aoe mezz? Bd get af debuff? And above all.... Mid tanks get plate?
Don't think it's going to happen so all these changes are just a really bad idea, in a server that is already too much albion sided (and not only in rvr / 8man but also in pve farming / raids and numbers are clear about this)


Mid only player cries when another realm's unplayed comp gets looked at.


It is unplayed because the other available setup, the caster one, is largely overperforming. And has been so for months, so we now have alb fgs with caster setup at RR10+
The alb tank train is awesome, they also have a hecking af debuff and plate on peelers... And it needs to be buffed. It's ridicolous. The only reason why it is not played is because the caster setup is better yet, making alb overall OP compared to hib and mid (especially mid). Sheer numbers say so, this is a fact, I don't believe that almost 50% of the entire server population play on Albion only because of the nice graphic of the capital city...
And they need a buff?? Don't make me laugh

have u played alb tanker recently ? i have, and it sucks ass. either u have weakspots like sorc and theu in your grp, or u have no reliable demezz and no root at all. talk about a setup that isnt played because the alternative is too stronk......
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:15 PM by Nephamael
The core "tanker" setup would be: Merc Merc Arms Sorc Theu Cler Cler Minst

I personally played quite some reaver pug for a few weeks, while i was playing 8v8 in Alb and had a lot of success with it, often netting a 70%+ winrate vs real gvg 8men and rolling over all other 8pug groups, sometimes beating 16slots too

(setups in Alb are so flexible, but we often played cleric cleric, minst, sorc, theurg 3 reavers)

I don't think Alb tanker needs any buffs except for Pally. The reason why it wasn't played a lot is because Alb caster was so ridiculous op and not because Alb tanker was weak in any way.

Here is my Pally buff suggestion: simply give him stoicism, that's all - he can be grouped and run in the assist train.
Optional he should probably also have access to the fulltank RAs, to bring dashing and soldies barricade to the group (else people will just group another arms probably)

A non-reaver setup i would play with my own group would look like this:

Cleric, Cleric/Friar, minst, minst, 3 arms 1 pally - the reason i use 2 minsts and no sorc is because sorc is squishy and we want to show "full" tanker here - realistically the better setups is the hybrid one for Alb with Cleric, Cleric/Friar, minst, minst, sorc, cabba, 2arms, again excluding the pally.
Why is that stronger? = I get the 2 best 8v8 utility casters of all 3 realms who can debuff assist each other and bring all cc/demezz/disease/nearsight to the group, on top of double SoS outshining what a pally could bring instead of a 2nd minst.

A Friar can be played in 2 ways for an alb melee group - the primary reason why he is grouped for a melee group is, like for warden in hib, the resists - so he would have to be specced 49 buff for all red resists.
That leaves him as a replacement for the 2nd cleric or as a replacement for an actual melee, specced 34 staff he can back and sidesnare with his 2h staff for example (much more than a warden can do in a tank vs caster group).
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:21 PM by Nephamael
tanker with only end 3 is an actual problem

actually this is a massive problem for hib tanker since the server launch - the only way to fix this problem reliably is to run 2 bards, which many hib tankers did during the time hib tanker was popular (now most hib 8men already switched to hib caster, because Alb caster got 2 good at winning vs hib tanker).

The reason for this is endusong being interruptable for bard, the casttime of the song being quite long and the lack of other hib aoe interrupt being so limited, it forces the Bard to always keep on top of rupt and never cast endu, as it would give the enemy 8man 2 much of an opening to exploit for freecasting.

The non controversial, or at least less controversial, change here would be to add a group endurance consumption reduction buff to the friar. This would resolve the endurance issue.

I do not oppose this, but it needs to come with the same being applied for warden's endu comsumption reduction buff being applied to the group and not just the warden.
Also thinking about making endusong uninterruptable by rupt (only by hard cc) seems a necessity (pally chant and shaman endubuff are uninterruptable/static buff).

Insert an endo reduction like on live with friar and it's too much. There would be no need for paladins then. Literally no need lol.

however i feel this point might be true for both realms and therefore maybe working on Pally is the better option.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:22 PM by Kaziera
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:15 PM
The core "tanker" setup would be: Merc Merc Arms Sorc Theu Cler Cler Minst

I personally played quite some reaver pug for a few weeks, while i was playing 8v8 in Alb and had a lot of success with it, often netting a 70%+ winrate vs real gvg 8men and rolling over all other 8pug groups, sometimes beating 16slots too

(setups in Alb are so flexible, but we often played cleric cleric, minst, sorc, theurg 3 reavers)

I don't think Alb tanker needs any buffs except for Pally. The reason why it wasn't played a lot is because Alb caster was so ridiculous op and not because Alb tanker was weak in any way.

Here is my Pally buff suggestion: simply give him stoicism, that's all - he can be grouped and run in the assist train.
Optional he should probably also have access to the fulltank RAs, to bring dashing and soldies barricade to the group (else people will just group another arms probably)

A non-reaver setup i would play with my own group would look like this:

Cleric, Cleric/Friar, minst, minst, 3 arms 1 pally - the reason i use 2 minsts and no sorc is because sorc is squishy and we want to show "full" tanker here - realistically the better setups is the hybrid one for Alb with Cleric, Cleric/Friar, minst, minst, sorc, cabba, 2arms, again excluding the pally.
Why is that stronger? = I get the 2 best 8v8 utility casters of all 3 realms who can debuff assist each other and bring all cc/demezz/disease/nearsight to the group, on top of double SoS outshining what a pally could bring instead of a 2nd minst.

A Friar can be played in 2 ways for an alb melee group - the primary reason why he is grouped for a melee group is, like for warden in hib, the resists - so he would have to be specced 49 buff for all red resists.
That leaves him as a replacement for the 2nd cleric or as a replacement for an actual melee, specced 34 staff he can back and sidesnare with his 2h staff for example (much more than a warden can do in a tank vs caster group).

well you are talking about a Grp that abuses levi burst, imo not about a real full/light tank tanker. thats what they are trying to buff, whilst merc beeing the least played light tank for a reason.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:28 PM by skinner904
I was reading the post and not cringing and was calm until I read giving speed 5 to paladin. Where in the flying fuck did that come from? Give the pally stoicism and/or celerity chant. Makes the pally a viable alternative to arms for peels and resolved the endo situation. With celerity a group can really choose to go full tanker and it be strong and make sense. Don't think any changes to friar would be required at that point otherwise you risk buffing the setup a bit too much.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:31 PM by Sepplord
Astaa wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:15 PM
This is the first of a few proposed changes.

Just wait, jesus, no wonder the devs get fed up of people complaining. Evaluate the proposed changes along side other changes.

To be fair though...priorities seem skewed. Why is the first thing that gets adressed the albtanker? Wouldn't it make sense to look at setups first that we're comparably bad before and still got caught in the blanketnerf, aka caster/Hybrids from other realms?
Debuffnerf hit runemaster for no reason, bonedancer for no reason, etc...

I am not saying there is alb-bias, i personally don't believe they have realm-bias but the timeline of recent changes/announcements don't add up logically to me.
Especially since doing meta-influencing balancechanges impact each other. Discussing buffs of one thing in the concept of the current meta, Just to do the next huge change directly afterwards.

I get that Putting loads of Work in and releasing everything at the same time is harder and has it's own flaws, but when this thread went up, i was expecting all other to go up within minutes afterwards. How can you discuss something like giving Paladine speed5 without context of what other realms get
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:32 PM by ExcretusMaximus
If you're going to give Paladins speed to solve their groupability issues, would it be possible to start them out at a lower value and increase it per each member in their group? This would go a long way in improving groupability, but not imbalance them in other areas.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:47 PM by Valaraukar
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:31 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:15 PM
This is the first of a few proposed changes.

Just wait, jesus, no wonder the devs get fed up of people complaining. Evaluate the proposed changes along side other changes.

To be fair though...priorities seem skewed. Why is the first thing that gets adressed the albtanker? Wouldn't it make sense to look at setups first that we're comparably bad before and still got caught in the blanketnerf, aka caster/Hybrids from other realms?
Debuffnerf hit runemaster for no reason, bonedancer for no reason, etc...

I am not saying there is alb-bias, i personally don't believe they have realm-bias but the timeline of recent changes/announcements don't add up logically to me.
Especially since doing meta-influencing balancechanges impact each other. Discussing buffs of one thing in the concept of the current meta, Just to do the next huge change directly afterwards.

I get that Putting loads of Work in and releasing everything at the same time is harder and has it's own flaws, but when this thread went up, i was expecting all other to go up within minutes afterwards. How can you discuss something like giving Paladine speed5 without context of what other realms get


I fully agree. At the moment the situation seems like: nerf debuff train for everyone because the alb debuff train is OP. Announce some not well identified rework for less used setups BUT the first that come in mind and is discussed is, oddly enough, the buff to Alb tank setup, with complete reworks to classes. While there are setups for other realms (casters in Mid above all) that are quite never used since forever, and get constantly nerfed (bd many time, sm pet) but yeah... We will think about them later and only when everyone gets his piece of cake. Meanwhile Albion has constantly the large majority of population in the server, the largest bg, more gvg and non gvg fg running than any other realm. How could ppl not complain about this when they see 'alb tanker buff"? It seems a joke, really!
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:56 PM by Sepplord
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:32 PM
If you're going to give Paladins speed to solve their groupability issues, would it be possible to start them out at a lower value and increase it per each member in their group? This would go a long way in improving groupability, but not imbalance them in other areas.

That sounds like a good suggestion similar to how they pondered making the friar i-heal scale with amount of clerics in the group. If they can scale spells specifically with grouped classes, it should be possible to do the same for General groupsize
Wed 23 Dec 2020 2:59 PM by Rov
Giving paladins minstrel speed would be a bad idea imo...

I do think they need to change their damage table, atm they are doing shit next to no damage with 2hander, so not being able to put out decent damage in 8 man game make them less attractive.

They definitely need some <3 but it for sure ain't speed!
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:00 PM by Nephamael
well you are talking about a Grp that abuses levi burst, imo not about a real full/light tank tanker. thats what they are trying to buff, whilst merc beeing the least played light tank for a reason.

I forgot to mention i 100% support giving merc a rear snare with the same growthrate as BM rear snare and the same snare duration - mercs are monsters in 1v1 but having no rear snare is making them a total offpick for 8v8.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:09 PM by Nephamael
While there are setups for other realms (casters in Mid above all) that are quite never used since forever

Yes i 100% agree, with the debuff nerf in effect Mid Caster/Hybrid has to be looked at as priority #1 for 8v8 balance.

Here is a super quick fix:

Runemaster: getting single and aoe amnesia in RC line, fitting the already amnesia focused mid supports AND adding Ichor for RM!!! this is a must for caster grp 3 realm RA balance!!!

Spiritmaster: sm pet buffed to match hunter pet movement speed and aoe mezz upped to mentalist single mezz duration (= slightly below the super long mezzes but a gamebreaker vs enemy support and significant on tanks to get away).

Those 2 changes are ALL it needs and mid caster/hybrid is already viable again, its rly all that simple
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:13 PM by Centenario
Typical starting setup should be NS + Speed + Spec buffs + Cure NS + AoE Mezz + Amnesia + Bubble + Peel + Resists +Endo, in 4 classes

I think this would be a better way to improve the whole alb setup.

FOR ALB:
For Melees:
Just change the 29 thrust style to be similar to the hammerline backsnare.
Also give it to slash and crush and flex to not run into the midgard issue (everybody forced into hammer line)

For Reaver:
Give 10min CD aoe stun from Healer

For Paladin:
Give 2handed access to Annihilation style from large weapon, to not lose time pre-slaming.
Reduce the cooldown of taunt to 15second for range interrupt.

For Armsman:
Make Shoot Crossbow a 15 cd ability instant
Make Crossbow as strong as Scout Bow
Access to Annihilation in 2-handed

For Minstrel:
Give him pulse bubble
Give AoE Mezz spells of Healer (no instants)
Remove Abla
Remove spell Mezz Cure
Remove Speed 5
Give Casted Speed

For Theurg:
Remove pulse Bubble
Give Baseline Ranged Stun from Hib
Remove Air Pets
Give Pbaoe Ice Spell in Ice Line
Give Cure Mezz in Air Line
Give NS (for alternative to cabalist) in Earth Line

For Sorc:
Remove Bolt range on aoe mezz
Give Speed 5
Remove Root
Remove Debuffs
Remove Pet
Give Pbaoe Body Lifedrain Spell

For Friar:
Give Cleric-like Insta Heal single target (lower priority due to immunity)
Give group heal 10% every 30-45sec insta
Give Pbaoe Disease Instant
Give Debuffs
Give Range Casted Stun

Cleric:
Remove Range Casted Stun
Give Range casted Root and AoE Root
Make Pbaoe Mezz Instant Baseline.
Remove Spec AF buffs
Give Caster Range on DDs
Give Endo Casted buff 1000 range
Give 1min immunity to friar insta heal on cleric's insta heal target

Cabalist:
Give Cure Mezz in Spirit Line

Wizard:
Give Baseline Ranged Stun from Hib

Necro:
No Changes ^^

This becomes base group setup (4slots):
Sorc + Cleric +Theurg/Cab/Wiz + Minstrel

Sorc + Cleric should be somewhat equivalent to Shaman + Healer and to Bard + Druid.
Sorc + Cleric have access to Amnesia + Spec buff + Caster speed + 3 resists + AoE Mezz, more dps and quickcast bolt range
Shaman + Healer have Amnesia + Specc buff + Endo + Caster Speed + full resist + AoE Mezz, less speed more instants
Bard + Druid have accesss to Amnesia + Spec Buff + good Resists (3+) + Endo + Speed 5 , better spell but more micromanagement
If you add 1 class to this base setup for mid it is the skald for speed 5 and peels and more
For Hib its the Warden for Bubble, easier resists, more heal
For Alb its the paladin for endo? or the theurg for bubble, maybe cab/wiz for NS, or friar for resists its not a clear cut for sure, minstrel for speed 5 but its underperforming in many other ways, too many things are missing.
A fourth class for Mid is Runemaster for NS bubble and dps
A fourth class for Hib is Eldritch for NS and dps
A fourth class for Alb is Paladin or theurg or cab/wiz or friar? Maybe Armsman for caster setup, no clear cuts, classes abilities are badly spread between classes.

Either you go all in or you don't make most of these changes, its a whole ecosystem change at once, there isn't much room for half-measures with this solution, since it changes radically many classes.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:26 PM by Eoril
just go play hib ?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:28 PM by Nephamael
I could see a low 25% single target instant on a 2 minute cooldown that cannot be used on the friar itself. Alternatively, to really drive it home that this is just a crutch to allow the friar to be a viable cleric replacement, it could be a 50% instant that's reduced by 25% per primary healer in group, however, that seems rather unlikely to be necessary.

In line with the already made changes to friar, warden and shaman it is only the natural next step to give all 3 of them instant heals, unless, like many people said before you want to keep all 3 classes the 3rd! support class in a group setup, bringing a lot of extra utility, but the downside of blocking a group slot.

Some groups already run them as a replacement for the 2nd primary healclass - with the downside of giving up instants (people don't spread in 8v8 usually, so not having viable groupsheals is a very minor factor for 8v8).

Both lines of thinking are valid, while i personally (as a druid player) would never replace my 2nd primary healer, simply because i value the impact of those 3 inst heals on one character(single, group, di) too much, to give them up for resists.

However this choice is easier to make for Alb than for Hib, simply because Cleric has only single target rupt.

-
If they get 1 instant they will be used as a 2nd healer in many more groups, now only being down the group instant, which is used as another single instant most of the time anyway. - This would solve a lot of slot problems for Alb and some for Hib, while it does not remove the problem of friar having just 1 inst ranged rupt and warden having 0 ranged rupts vs what enormeous ranged rupt potential shaman has.

Inst heals for secondary healers alone is a topic for a stand alone threat - so is ranged rupts for friar/warden, so i won't go any deeper into this here.

However i don't oppose simply testing a 50% single inst they can't use on themselves (25% is not significant enough).


Edit: thinking about this for some minutes brought up giving friars root - it competes with his extremely strong 27s sidesnare but solves the problem of not having a single root class in a full Alb tanker. For Alb caster it adds ranged rupt for the friar but at the cost of having to be close to the enemy group.

The only problem i personally have with this is the warden would need a mezz or root too and then we are already pretty deep into custom daoc and less uniqueness - even tho i think noone disagrees Warden is the most boring class to play in 8v8 and friar is probably 2nd. So they kinda need something to do, other than heal, cure disease, cure ns and selfpeel....
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:38 PM by Sepplord
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:28 PM
If they get 1 instant they will be used as a 2nd healer in many more groups, now only being down the group instant, which is used as another single instant most of the time anyway. - This would solve a lot of slot problems for Alb and some for Hib, while it does not remove the problem of friar having just 1 inst ranged rupt and warden having 0 ranged rupts vs what enormeous ranged rupt potential shaman has.

Inst heals for secondary healers alone is a topic for a stand alone threat - so is ranged rupts for friar/warden, so i won't go any deeper into this here.

However i don't oppose simply testing a 50% single inst they can't use on themselves.

In general i agree but the assessment does leave Out that Shaman/friar/Warden are not only the realms secondary healer and have other jobs that heavily Impact their performance as secondary healers. And when you only compare them in one categorie there will obviously be huge difference/downsides between them.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:43 PM by Nephamael
In general i agree but the assessment does leave Out that Shaman/friar/Warden are not only the realms secondary healer and have other jobs that heavily Impact their performance as secondary healers. And when you only compare them in one categorie there will obviously be huge difference/downsides between them.

That's true for shaman, but unfortunately not for warden and friar. They simply bring nothing else but resists heals and cures in their current state. - Ok twf and static ... well.... both can't match ichor in 8v8 ....


however if we give friars and wardens aoe disease the uniqueness of shaman is almost gone. If we give them root and disease it is gone, if we give them root ... that sounds the most reasonable thing to do without overpowering alb and hib tanker.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:57 PM by Nephamael
let's also already discuss

Hib tanker vs Mid tanker vs Alb tanker

actually this is a pretty quick one.

The main advantage of hib tanker is having pbt on a sturdy character. While pbt is almost useless vs a tank assist it is huge in the peel war at the start of a tanker vs tanker (resulting in the enemy tankgroup without pbt most likely having significantly more stunned/snared tanks on inc = the other teams support is free to rupt/heal/cure/demezz, while the non pbt tanker's backline is under immediate pressure by the enemy tanks).

---------------
However i don't think this needs any fixing at all - It simply rewards the Alb tanker for playing a theurg (i played this role myself and had a blast everytime i did - with exceptional winrates in 8v8 as well [playing as solo or 2nd caster next to sorc])

Same is valid for Mid - you can simply group a supp or dark/supp rm as sole caster in a tankgroup. - With my suggested buffs for the RC line this would have significant pushing power (even at low rc spec) and maybe add the option of taking a split spec or even rc rm in too.

--------------------
On top of this the disadvantages of warden (or friar) as a healer do not apply for tank vs tank matchups, as they are less bursty if guarded against than caster assists, so the lack of instant heals is not a huge deal, making warden/friar fully viable healers in tank vs tank. (which is great and does not need to be changed either)
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:58 PM by Sepplord
Well friars and wardens both can peel, warden is hibernias bubbler and both can heal much better than shamans can
But yeah, this alone could have it's own thread...everything is intertwined in daoc because of how abilities/Jobs are spread.

Back to the albtanker topic
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:05 PM by Gilbert
I think you should not change to much.

Instead of giving the fastest speed to Paladin, what do you think of a new buff?
This buff just upgrades an existing speed to the next higher one, so a Paladin would not be able to run solo with the fastest speed.

This is not a big deal, but you can think of complete new groupsetups (smallmen/8men).

You should give this buff to the classes which are not often needed/played in groups (smallmen/8men).

Albion --> Paladin (Chants)
Midgard --> Runemaster (Darkness)
Hibernia --> maybe Champion or whatever... not shure in Hib

With this change, Albion can run without Minstrel and Midgard without Skald.

What do think about that?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:09 PM by Neso
A minstrel will still get picked over a Paladin for speed 5 anyway, Demezz, pet, mezz etc (friar/cleric already cover resists).
Rather than getting Paladins to compete directly with Armsmen, they should complement them with improvements to their support/chants.

For example...
Major heal, uses mana bar finally - no need for stoic
DA/heal chant buff
Insta timed cure disease
Self celerity chant
Self buff/s
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:10 PM by Centenario
Gilbert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:05 PM
I think you should not change to much.
Instead of giving the fastest speed to Paladin, what do you think of a new buff?
This buff just upgrades an existing speed to the next higher one, so a Paladin would not be able to run solo with the fastest speed.
What do think about that?

I am for less clutter, less buffs. More things baseline, more straightforward, so that any newbe doesnt have to figure out too much, less barriers to entry.

Now I need to make SC + procs+ build + RA + pots + charges + more buffs ?
I'd prefer if we could remove most of these things and bring them baseline to remove barriers to entry and switching cost from one character to the next.
Of course for old school players and veteran they lose their experience advantage, but maybe the game would become more appealing to new players or easier for casuals to stick to.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:17 PM by tape85
Coming from a 15+ yr perspective: last two played realms hib and mid.

Merc back snare: no brainer - should be in.
The Paladin/friar paradox: tough one. Your suggestions make more sense then what Ive seen so far. Giving paladins speed5 wont do much for serious groups, as they will still want sos, demezz, pet. Paladins are in a very bad spot imo, perhaps they should be a solo/smallman oriented class instead of trying to be forced into the 8man.

I propose giving them an abs buff, make them the ultimate tank for solo/small.

Friars, another tricky subject. I personally think friars as is are fine, but maybe im off.

Lastly, armsman. I suggest a SELF end5 buff when in a 7+man group. Boom.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:26 PM by Illusionist
Instead of implementing the style changes, you're instead going to look at what people have decided to be the tank train setup and figure out how to optimize those groups by individually altering certain styles, buffs and roles of specific classes in cookie cutter fashion. I've typically been in support of making changes to the game, but I very much question this move. Granted this is the first realm target, Alb, so I guess we should wait to see what gets done to Mid and Hib, but Focusing on certain group setups then starts forcing people to use that setup in order to be successful then making some classes incredibly useless or undesired, as many already are (for one reason or another, ego, jerks, or just straight the classes inability to contribute), but without implementing global style changes and introduce a select few of the other buffs classes got like Friars, Paladins, Wardens, Skalds, etc. (which you've done a very good controlled job of this so far), that came a long later with the style changes, this is really going to nuke peoples' inclusion of certain classes to play, instead of playing what they like. This has always been one of the best thing about this game is the uniqueness of classes and specs
Along with your experimental changes coming with RvR, assuming people adjust and the magic formula to know if people let live, in combination with these Tanker changes and considering that this setup is Arms, Merc, Merc, Cleric, Cleric, Theur, Sorc, Mins - you're guiding RvR which initially looks like it then is going to take away how people form groups and "make it work".

Implement the style changes instead of just giving 1 class per realm a rear snare style, fix the arc so Side chain strong classes don't lock you down when they stand right in front of you churning out side styles. Those changes made an incredible difference in RvR in the ways you guys are searching for random other ways to change things up, it will make a lot of things missing far less dependent upon how to recreate the wheel.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:31 PM by Razur Ur
Why you givent champion back snare with LW and why get Albion more and more love?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:39 PM by Ashenspire
You've left out Reaver in the tanker comp.

Giving Paladin Celerity and Reaver Dashing Defense would allow for a much more flexible group setup in an alb tank setup.

Merc Merc Arms, Merc Pally Reaver, Merc Pally Arms, Merc Merc Reaver, Arms Pally Reaver, etc would all work. Any of these setups would give you lots of offense, defense and utility tools to work with. The Celerity helps the group keep up offensively by including the lower DPS paladin. The extra defensive ability on the Reaver makes them into a very dangerous and effective peeler for someone that goes too deep.

The Speed 5 chant wouldn't solve much, as they still don't have pets/sos/cc/multiple ranged interrupts/etc.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:44 PM by Slash
I'm sorry to say, but this is getting ridiculous...

Bard has root, paladin would have speed 5. Hmmm.

Server is turning to something never experienced before.
People are here to play daoc, not a gimp version of it...

Balance would start with some nerves about hib tanker, mid hybrid. (combination) Not with body debuff nukers when it requires some rank to be competitive. You did it without asking community, ok, let's live with it.
Balance would continue with nerves on OP chars, like it started with minstrel and BD, and should continue with stealthers (in general), bard, champion, maybe VW etc.
Balance is not about reworking totally classes, that makes no sense at this point...

And the most wonderful thing about it, is that "players" who started asking about those changes will be consulted first to...discuss about those changes...
Sorry, but it's laughable...
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:51 PM by skipari
well, i think friar is okay in the current state, and if he gets the endu reduction i would even consider to get it more into the staff line or at least make the consumption for style only.

But i think the paladin could get some love to actually get useful within the train. Don't think the speed would help here, since sos alone would still bring the minstrel into the group. I would use more the valewalker as baseline for the hybrids (also thane etc in the future) and in this case the disease proc and nuking capabilities make it worthwhile within a hib tanker.

Therefore my suggestions would be to have something similar, ideas which come into my mind would be either a af debuff proc (lower then the necro one) to have the pala boost the full melee train damage by some percent or as alternative a bit more defensive would be a pbae instant disease cure with like 350 units and a 30-60s timer to keep the assist on the target.
As vw nuke alternative the simplest would be a spec heal, more complicated but perhabs something funny could be a focused spell on friendly targets, which boost the absorb (melee and/or magic) by a small amount like 10-15%. Think of the focused snare from the bd as a similar mechanic.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:55 PM by Symond
How about give paladins (and other underutilized classes) a cool useful RA. Maybe Group Purge to paladins, elder itches and spirit masters?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:01 PM by skaloo
For the paly:

I believe one of the main reason it's not played is because its most important key feature (endo regen) is useless on phoenix.
Reduce endo regen pots by 1 tier at least and the paly become important again.
That plus I always found rather sad that anyone and is dog has permasprint w/o compromise...
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:09 PM by Gilbert
Gilbert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:05 PM
I think you should not change to much.

Instead of giving the fastest speed to Paladin, what do you think of a new buff?
This buff just upgrades an existing speed to the next higher one, so a Paladin would not be able to run solo with the fastest speed.

This is not a big deal, but you can think of complete new groupsetups (smallmen/8men).

You should give this buff to the classes which are not often needed/played in groups (smallmen/8men).

Albion --> Paladin (Chants)
Midgard --> Runemaster (Darkness)
Hibernia --> maybe Champion or whatever... not shure in Hib

With this change, Albion can run without Minstrel and Midgard without Skald.

What do think about that?

This Change wouldn´t hurt anyone, but it solves the problem that Paladin "the class albion stands for, when I think of albion" don´t get any Groups (small/8/Zerg).
Maybe most of the people say, I would rather take Minstrel then Paladin, cause of demezz/pet/sos and so on, but who cares?
It´s not all about "the perfect setup", I personaly think "skill" is more important then that.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:10 PM by lolmatron
Some thoughts...
Since this is about alb tanker, I will disregard hib/mid when considering balancing issues. The first community input plan is in works, therefore I'll keep it alb tanker. Might compare between specific classes/counter parts - if not feel free to do so on your own time.

So then..
Paladin:
- celerity chant... Not a bad idea
# in this case I'd rather see a rework on all chants.
# heal chant needs some love, perhaps scaling with acu/skill?
# combined resists chant, instead of everyone pushing AHK binds and spamming the server
# minor adjustments to DA chant (see DMG later on)

- speed 5... Very much a troll suggestion imo! It sparked the public and hopefully some out of the box thoughts... No one will skip a minstrel for paladin.
# if you go with speed 5 then you need to give paladins SOS & AM atleast, so the lost utility isn't that great when picking Pala over minstrel.

- DMG table
# they need to be tuned to somewhere closer to arms output. Currently paladins are no more than a meatshield that doesn't pose a threat, outside slam
# can be sorted with boosting self effect of DA chant

- skills and styles
# possibly the best place to boost & improve a paladin. Adding some procs on style chains for added DMG output?
# a good finisher to 50 2h spec would be suitable, maybe add roleplay elements to if you want.
# you go slam and high chants and then some peeling in one line. Works fine but adding some procs higher up in other skills can give some variance into specs and roles within grps.

- RAs
# As a heavy paladins should get some love here... Either dashing defense or soldiers barricade would be awesome!
# stoicism wouldn't hurt, to get up to par with arms (considering heavy tanks)


Friar:
- healing
# insta heal in all its glory, I'd rather see a insta burst hot on a 1min rut (value not %)
# spec GRP heal is mandatory, especially if you want to cover all playstyles.
# reduction in power cost on GRP hot or adding a single castable hot (same values) would be a great way of adding viability for the friar as primary healer.
# style chain heals (only affecting GRP members and not self)

- RAs
# feels like they are in a decent place now with VR boost.
# adding BoF would be a nice move

- melee/staff
# pretty decent place ATM, maybe as mentioned some tuning on the snares? Swap the durations might be a good start?

For the rest... Haven't played much else than cleric/friar/paladin on phoenix, so won't go into that.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:13 PM by Sepplord
Gilbert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:09 PM
This Change wouldn´t hurt anyone, but it solves the problem that Paladin "the class albion stands for, when I think of albion" don´t get any Groups (small/8/Zerg).
Maybe most of the people say, I would rather take Minstrel then Paladin, cause of demezz/pet/sos and so on, but who cares?
It´s not all about "the perfect setup", I personaly think "skill" is more important then that.

Why Change anything at all at that Point then?
Come on...

And the suggestion even doesn't follows it's own Logic...giving the Speed-Upgrade buff on RM that already has Speed and would become the new SPEED6 class without synergy-requirement
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:14 PM by chtiema
Avid 8v8 player here to toss my 2 cents into the mix. I think, before you guys implement radical changes - that you understand what objectives you are truly trying to achieve. It seems to me that you have 2 objectives. First. the team wants to diversify the 8v8 scene so that there is more balance across various play types. Most notably - the Tank Group Meta. Second, it appears that you want to simplify 8v8 gameplay by simultaneously increasing the floor of skill necessary to win and decreasing the ceiling of high skilled players (ala debuff nerf + AOM boost). @GMs - Can you confirm?

I would encourage you to maintain the integrity and mission of your server. It is after all, classic with a twist. By implementing DRASTIC archetype changes - such as Pally with Speed 5 - you are changing the game at its core.... and for no reason. Specifically, 8 mans would never exclude a Minstrel from the core set-up. It is as concrete as a main healer. So this change would be meaningless and even suggesting it discredits any other updates (yes, it is that ludicrous).

After reading the proposed changes, and suggested above, I would also like to know if you are trying to encourage more "8v8 Teams" by simplifying the META? This is good idea, but the dedicated 8s that have been together since server release will still - without effort - dunk non-hardcore players and then laugh about it. It has nothing to do with mechanics - rather the coordination of a set group that has been playing together for years and years. So why change anything? Furthermore, the teams suggestion that endo usage is an issue w/o a pally is somewhat confusing and leads me to believe that you are catering to a lower skilled player. It is not hard to maintain endo with potions/charges - and no one spams slam unless there is a kill window. Endo shouldn't be a problem if you know how to play.

Here would be my recommendations - that are simple and seems to achieve your objectives:

1) Add better procs to Melle Weapons such as ABS Debuff, AF Debuff, and even Legendary Weapons. This would add tremendous amounts of diversity to group set-ups and add creativity to the play. The spike would be noticeable. Boost ALB/HIB Melle META.

2) Give Wardens Slam - giving Hib Caster META a shot

3) Reduce RA Points for Anger of the Gods.

4) Increase DA Chants of Pally, Skalds, and Warden

Regards! Thanks for the server. I have had a blast playing it.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:21 PM by Neso
Gilbert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 4:05 PM
I would rather take Minstrel then Paladin, cause of demezz/pet/sos and so on, but who cares?

...any small/8 that was serious about making it past one run, or even running at all lol.
Then you have the whole thing with other realms complaining about the lack of other speed 5 classes.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:27 PM by Enyore
I actually think the alb-tanker is quite viable in 8v8 as it is already...

Reason why you don't see them too often is not that it's bad but simple that the body debuff group is better and a lot easier to play because its more structured in its play style where as the tanker is more chaotic.
Endurance problem is minor, with legion charge and potion most are fine - just take some skill to stop sprint when snaring targets or slamming them to conserve.

The single target insta heal on the friar could work - would recommend however that it starts at a rather high level in Rejuv so that you have to sacrifice either enhance or some melee to get there.
Endo redux for the friar could work - but this buff I think would be better placed on the paladin giving him both the redux and endurance buff.

The proposed speed 5 change to the paladin I am not sure I understand, minstrel is still waaay to strong for the paladin to take their place in any groups as I see it. In tanker/caster groups you still need the minstrel utility so this wouldn't really give any viability to the paladin. It would however make this the best solo class in the game.

I think a minor change to paladin such as adding stoicism, lower recast time on the instant taunt interupt would actually give it more viability than speed 5. An interesting idea could also be to give Paladin access to perfect recovery or even DI which is also what the group would be missing if you add a friar instead of the one cleric.

Edit: all this talk about adding celerity to albion I do not think is a good idea. Exactly the way they did on live where it ended up being almost red team, blue team and green team... all with the same stuff.

Just my 5 cents.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:27 PM by Arm
My 2C respectfully,

I would prefer celerity remain a short range buff, add it to friar. The castable component pulls the friar into range like it does w/ healer. Do the same w/ wardens?
Make sorc speed/chanter/RM speed increase to speed 6 active only in groups of 5 or more (spitballing).
Add a low level insta to friars and increase hot.

I support the Devs and all their ideas so long as if a decision proves to be obviously detrimental, changes are made swiftly.

Regarding this thread (and most on the topic of game change)
This forum channel should mute the perma whiny little brats and let the adults talk. Allowing these people to continually effect a process by being negative constant complainers helps no one. Allow respectful, well thought and progressive analysis to occur, there are very bright people here with suggestions far better than mine. Why should this channel be any different than /advice. Start muting and kicking, I don't want our Devs being demoralized from trying things.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:29 PM by Gilbert
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:13 PM
Gilbert wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:09 PM
This Change wouldn´t hurt anyone, but it solves the problem that Paladin "the class albion stands for, when I think of albion" don´t get any Groups (small/8/Zerg).
Maybe most of the people say, I would rather take Minstrel then Paladin, cause of demezz/pet/sos and so on, but who cares?
It´s not all about "the perfect setup", I personaly think "skill" is more important then that.

Why Change anything at all at that Point then?
Come on...

And the suggestion even doesn't follows it's own Logic...giving the Speed-Upgrade buff on RM that already has Speed and would become the new SPEED6 class without synergy-requirement

I said the RM should get it at the "dark" - spec line, because this line is by far the badest one.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:50 PM by yepyukon
While I really want to see my paladin have perma speed 6, there are other things that would vastly help before this. Give them stoicism to start. There is no reason to group a pally over an arms or merc since one is CCed for 1/6th the time as the other. If you are going to treat them as a tank, then let them have tank abilities.

I would also like to see either a celerity added to their dmg add chant or a group insta buff - short duration (like healer has) OR give them baseline buffs or small heals. I think either of those two options would greatly improve their group-ability over another speed class that lacks the tools that would still make the minstrel the better choice (SoS, demez, CC, pet, insta interupt, insta stun).
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:55 PM by RankBadjin
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
This is the "opening statement" / staff suggestions for the discussions regarding the alb tanker buff part of the 8v8 balance changes with community involvement.

No, just no.

No other dual wield class has a back snare...
No other tank class has speed 5...

This nerfs clerics even further and nerfs minstrels completely.

A better idea, UN-nerf cleric, return smite to its original, this makes the friar more important if one or more of the clerics opts for smite/rejuv because the group loses depth in spec buffs. Leave the merc alone, it's balanced, don't mess with it. Add a celerity chant to the pally instead. THAT is more balanced than the changes you are proposing.

Failing that, take the safe way out... don't make any changes at ALL.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:59 PM by Centenario
On alb we simply join bg if we don’t have 2 clerics, a sorc, a minstrel.
Most of the time nobody wants to play minstrel and sorc. So we just end up with caster speed and go full retard with aoe, gtaoe.

If sorc would be better with the highest speed, already we could start going out of the bg with just somebody who goes for sorc. Then if we want to run some melees we need a paladin for endo, but then we need for sure 2 more melee to make it viable melee train. But if somebody wants to play cab or theurg or something else, then melee is poor or caster is poor.
If paladin was strong enough or if endo management was better (buff) then it would be easier to start something.
I never have played with a theurg in a group, it’s very rare. Yet very good... I think many things should be changed on alb. To remove just bg or caster setup.

The main issue we run into also is only 1 cleric in the group, no other healers, cause nobody thinks friar is worth it, and nobody likes playing cleric.

We mostly fight hib/mid groups with 3 healers so that’s way too imba.
Cleric and friar need to be improved.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:03 PM by opossum12
RankBadjin wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:55 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
This is the "opening statement" / staff suggestions for the discussions regarding the alb tanker buff part of the 8v8 balance changes with community involvement.

No, just no.

No other dual wield class has a back snare...
No other tank class has speed 5...

This nerfs clerics even further and nerfs minstrels completely.

A better idea, UN-nerf cleric, return smite to its original, this makes the friar more important if one or more of the clerics opts for smite/rejuv because the group loses depth in spec buffs. Leave the merc alone, it's balanced, don't mess with it. Add a celerity chant to the pally instead. THAT is more balanced than the changes you are proposing.

Failing that, take the safe way out... don't make any changes at ALL.

Strange, advocating for no changes, refuses a meec back snare so that he is equivalent to every other dw tank in the game, but proposes group celerity on the paladin?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:15 PM by Saroi
RankBadjin wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 5:55 PM
No other dual wield class has a back snare...

What do you mean no other dw class has back snare? Berserker got back snare in hammer.

Are you talking about dw line? Snow Shower(Lv 8 Back style in CD): Am I a joke to you?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:16 PM by Blitze
Ideas
—————-
With respect to
Friars.

1. Group endu redux should be done (this change shoulda been made awhile ago)!
(The only downside to this is it makes paladins less useful with their end, however, this is a redundant point because paladins have no use right now... Thus, fixing paladins should be a separate thing to friars)

2. Swapping the snare lengths of the back(lvl34) and Side (lvl18) makes sense.

3. The group HoT needs to be castable when moving and needs its power cost reduced. Also a Single target HoT makes sense (again if castable when moving it plays into friars original aim to dance between melee & heals)

4. Friars need an insta heal type thing (Not self usable). E.g. a Simple heal or a large HoT (with insta first tick).

—————————

Paladins. (Least played class in RvR)

1. Give em celerity (Or give em stoicism, however, think this treads on arms/mercs too much), celerity is better.
2. & Give em defensive tank RAs


—————————-

Wardens. (Useful but boring atm)

Give em shield spec (albeit without increasing their specc points.
Or give em grp celerity
Or increase their dmg table
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- Phoenix eggs: Drop off of monsters when leveling solo, can be turned in at class trainers for additional experience gains

- A classic approach to the game with a pre-Trials of Atlantis ruleset with the Old Frontiers zones

- Shrouded Isles content with Caer Sidhi, Galladoria and Tuscaran Glacier Raids and working SI classes and content

- The new server experience where everyone is starting out fresh and no one is already dominating the battlefield (which is basically the case on the official DAoC servers): This doesn’t come around very often and is a very vivid and unique experience!



So if you like classic DAoC and have played it in the past and want to experience this great game again, waiting for CU to launch, on a server with a hard-working staff and dedicated player base, come join Phoenix on January 12th 2019!"


This was posted by the phoenix GM's back before the server opened as an advertisement of kinds in the forums. amazing how much things have changed. I really love the part that talks about "maintaining the true classic feel of the game". It seems that now the devs have started to drink the same cool-aid that the live devs have been drinking, and we are starting to get some of the same crazy changes.... how about we just leave things be?!?! change is what eventually killed live, i think we can all agree on that. And now we are following in the same footsteps here. It seems that the small percentage of people who have the time to sit on the forums and bitch all day long are the only people here with a voice... I'm sure im not alone in wishing the changes would stop. Live didnt change all it once, it changed little by little over the years untll it became a game we could not recognize anymore. look at the original post they posted, and think about how much has changed already..
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:18 PM by Sedit
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:52 AM
LOL!

This is getting ridicolous 😂


So this is how it works here.... Nerf everyone when the issue is faction-related. Buff albion when the nerf may affect that part more than the other. Gooooood job!

So we'll see speed 5 on thanes? 😂 😂 😂
Why you even care? You run always 16+🤣
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:46 PM by Egonek
Merc:

I play BM/Zerker and Merc.

And without Backpeel you are realy useless.. every arms/friar/pala do on the end of the fight more dmg as the merc.

Backpeel is in my eyes more important as a slam. Remove Slam. and give a follow up side stun or back stun. maybe??

Friar:
+ heat/matter/cold resists.
+ Static
+ Heal Proc (only for melee grp good)

-no DI
-no BOF
-no PR
-no single inst.
-no grp inst.
-no spread heal
-only BASE grp heal.

-/+ grp hot? but completle to expensive (useless if you have an assist train on you)
-/+ side peel? melee peel as main healer... sometimes its fine.

But the question is atm how to make Friar more usefull in tanker grp.

1. Increase the Proc chance fro heal proc 20-25%
2. Give the hot 100% more value and drop power costs at 50%.
3. Give him a 15-20% cele to his hot grp heal.
4. His Strong single heal ignore Disease?(because he has no spread heal?)
5. Give him a grp heal like the Bard.
6. Endu reduce buff for grp.
7. Grp disiase heal because no pread heal?
8. base det?

Paladin:
15-20% cele.
more HP. he get 0 const on a tanker class..
hmm no idea. bit more dmg?

Reaver:
why we dont talk about REAVER!!???

+LEVI
+/- aoe rupter/cc breaker
- Face reaver and he is useless...
- useless dot rupt/cc break
if any GOOOD player face a reaver. reaver is completle useless... his dmg heal the any from reprocs more as he do dmg.
after HP love. reaver is realy bad.

Necro:

if you play vs a strong 8er as necro. you can do nothink. every 30s with quickcast you can debuff somethink.
I will never invite a Necro only for his AF debuff. Because good grp take him out.
Necro is a class which atm dont have place in 8v8.
Strong vs tanker in 1v1 but not more.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:56 PM by byron
Paladin has already endurance chant, shield and plate armor... just remove the endurance potion effect if you are grouped in more than 4 in frontier zones then all alb groups will desire a paladin with them. It will be ridicoluos to give them celerity chant when in Midgard it is a cast from an healer (that is not a plate armor tank) with short range and short duration. And about the speed then you'll need to give it also to a second class in Midgard and Hibernia too to balance the realms... the changes will be without an end.
If you add too many things to a class you'll have to balance other classes in other realms too: will Thane have a nuclear bomb in stormcalling line to be more desiderable in groups then ? Warriors will have plate armor and and an anytime snare style like arsman ? Zerk will have side style with stun and snare style in left axe spec ? As you see it will never end (take hibernian classes too if you want to do more examples).
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:25 PM by canzian
Speed 5 paladin.. Is 1st April?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:29 PM by Jingo NZ
Merc and Friar suggestions are good.
Could give Paladin slightly lower than speed 5 (speed 4.9?). You could also give this 4.9 speed to Hib/Mid (eg Warden and Hunter?) .

Next changes should be Mid caster. New baseline nukes are a must. Maybe buff the duration of all 3 realms ghetto AE mez (Spiritmasted/Eldritch/Theurg).
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:33 PM by Maca
Hector wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 1:00 PM
Far too radical overhaul proposed once again. 8v8 balance can be achieved with only a few small steps that don’t radically change the role of a class.

Suggestions:
-alb tanker does NOT need a buff.
-mid casters need baseline spirit nuke
-hib casters need enchanter with baseline root and mentalist with the OF RA STT
-Merc needs a backsnare
-Thane only level 50 sword style should proc like Levi

That’s it. Please don’t make the paladin a speed class and please don’t give crazy toys to classes that don’t need them. Preserve the class uniqueness and just make small changes like these to balance things out. I also would close by saying I find it a bit peculiar that you guys want to nerf hib tankers but gave bard a root. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense from 8v8 perspective.
have your ever fought a vw before? Stupid op why u see 10000 of them. Hib casters have stun Nuke what more do u need. And the luri race starting stats are a joke.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:38 PM by exolyseur
Is it a joke ? If not so you will loose a LOT of people. Give stoicism and a grp RA for paladins. And tx for one more time uping alb and nerfing hib. Btw friars are op atm.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:43 PM by Kaziera
exolyseur wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:38 PM
Is it a joke ? If not so you will loose a LOT of people. Give stoicism and a grp RA for paladins. And tx for one more time uping alb and nerfing hib. Btw friars are op atm.
Is it a joke ? If you dont change you will loose a LOT of people.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:49 PM by Noashakra
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:43 PM
exolyseur wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:38 PM
Is it a joke ? If not so you will loose a LOT of people. Give stoicism and a grp RA for paladins. And tx for one more time uping alb and nerfing hib. Btw friars are op atm.
Is it a joke ? If you dont change you will loose a LOT of people.

You will lose people anyway. Alb caster is too strong atm, they deserved a small nerf.
Give stoicism to the paladin, the rest is overkill imo.

Maca wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 7:33 PM
have your ever fought a vw before? Stupid op why u see 10000 of them. Hib casters have stun Nuke what more do u need. And the luri race starting stats are a joke.

lmao, So OP and played that there are 4 in the top 250 rp last week. Compared to 12 BM, 15 cabalist, 15 sorcerer, etc...
They fit in one type of group in hib, and yes they are strong in hib tank, but not overkill at all.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 8:21 PM by Delegator
Making changes in a vacuum (in the case focused on 8v8 which is a small minority of players from what I have seen) is never a good idea. How about considering things such as whether paladins have a role in keep takes/defenses and whether these changes will affect that?

Or put the 8v8 in their own BG (yess I will keep suggesting this until somebody responds with a reason why it isn’t a good idea) and have adjustments to classes that are only active in that zone.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 8:55 PM by Drakkars
The core "tanker" setup would be: Merc Merc Arms Sorc Theu Cler Cler Minst
Variations include swapping 1 cleric for friar, arms for pala, 1 merc for pala, 1 merc for necro, 1 merc for cab, theu for necro or theu for cab


My issue with this- give reasons for different setups. Tankers shouldn't need that many casters.
Give friars haste buff for everyone. That takes away part of theurg and means you don't need theurg unless you want the pet rupts. Maybe a slight heal buff but nothing too heavy.

I'm fine with the merc snare change. No issue there.
Give paladin just a slight dps boost and they are more viable (they already are but people are min maxers). Ya no stoic. That's fine. They are hybrids. They don't need the speed buff.


You could run instead
Cleric friar sorc minst merc merc arms pally. All classes would have good haste, all resists, be tough to kill and have good endo (unlike mid where endo range is super short). Plus you have anger of the gods for the tank dps as well.

You lose out on theurg pet spam. Still a very solid group set up.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 8:58 PM by Meticode
Alb is my only realm I play. I have both a Friar and a Paladin. Paladin getting Speed 5 just sounds ridiculous to me. As I was reading I was expecting Celerity or something for them (I feel all 3 realms should have access to Celerity, not just Mid). But when I read Speed 5 for Paladins I almost spit my drink out.

In the end, I think changing the Friar endurance reduction buff from self to group is the smallest change that can be monitored to see if that helps...

...but in the end it still doesn't give Paladin's a roll and it alienates them from groups because that's the whole reason the endurance pots were nerfed in the ifrst place. Why run a Pally when you can run a Det9+Stocism tank and use endo regen pots?

What I think should happen is Wardens get Celerity and Paladins. That way all three realms have access to it, Paladins become viable for tanker groups and Hib tanker groups become a viable option.

Whatever you do, don't give Paladins Speed 5 in the end.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 9:17 PM by cmckenzie1452
Seriously, please listen to Drak on the Alb tank ideas, as he currently runs one of the best Alb tank groups consistently.

Paladins are fine. The issue comes down to a tank group getting haste and cc, which are on less than ideal classes for Alb. Move haste to friar, eliminate the tank comp needing another caster.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 9:24 PM by Centenario
Drakkars wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 8:55 PM
The core "tanker" ...
If you compare to a mid tanker setup:
Healer healer shaman runemaster 4 melee train.
You are still missing out on NS and bubble. Two very strong abilities to give time for your tanks to get to the target.

On hib:
Warden Druid bard and eld or warden Druid bard Druid would again be better.

I think cleric + friar + sorc + mins should cover at least bubble, best would be to give pulsing bubble to minstrel and give best speed to sorc, haste or endo to one of these 4.
If you give best speed to sorc you can then replace minst with a theurg and give endo to friarand be ready to compete.
Or give theurg accès to best speed.
Or give sorc best speed and theurg cure mezz.
Many ways to make it work, just need to try it.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:23 PM by DJ2000
humor me..

Paladin
Wipe the entire "Chants" line but Keep:
AF Buff (Self)
Spec AF Buff (Grp, Inst, Pulse) scales with Grp members
Combat Heal (Grp, Inst, Pulse) scales with Grp members
and Add:
Endurance Consumption Reduction Buff (Grp, Inst, Pulse) scales with Grp members
Stoicism Buff (Grp, Inst, Pulse) scales with Grp members
Cele Buff (self) 30s 2min
Resurrect Instant 30% 5min
Taunt/Snare dual effect instant

Friar
Staff
lvl8 Defender Fury - ASR 19% 20sec. ---> lvl8 Defender Fury - PBAOE ASR 19% 20sec
Reju
Instead of the HoT spells -> Lvl24-34-44 Uninterruptable (no Dex bonus) +rooted (cannot be purged) 4s / 6s / 8s 2min
Enh
Endurance Consumption Reduction Buff (self) Lvl12/22/32/42 + Endurance Regen Buff (Self, Inst, Pulse) Lvl2 ----> Endurance Regen Buff (Grp, Inst, Pulse) Lvl2/12/22/32/42

There you go.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:24 PM by Cotea
Eoril wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:40 AM
celerity song on paladin seems the most logical thing to do for me
but hib would need celerity too... where ? hibs tankers are really strong enough... maybe on a caster ? on menta mentalism or on a verdant animist pet

If you follow live daoc... Warden had the celerity, this would be the logical path to follow!
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:32 PM by Centenario
It would be better to remove celerity from mid instead of giving it to alb and hib.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:36 PM by The Skies Asunder
I don't really have a lot to input in regards to Phoenix 8v8, as I have only ran in a FG twice ever on this server. While I do have, probably hundreds of custom change ideas, they aren't really relevant to keeping the server mostly a classic feel (Would love to be involved in Phoenix 2 someday haha). So I just have a few questions before I suggest anything:

1. What is the goal in forcing Paladin into 8v8 groups, and what role do you want Paladin to play in that group?

2. What is the end goal for Friar? Is it just to push them into being a full on healer?

3. When can we expect to see ideas for the other setups/realms? As this may help with ideas, and perspective.

4. Has there been any thought into some of the Live-like changes from the middle years? I personally feel the best class balancing time in DAoC was from the early 1.8x patches through the early 1.9x patches (Apart from some of the Catacombs classes themselves). Though the balance wasn't perfect, it was overall pretty good, so perhaps some of the changes from then could be looked at?
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:49 PM by Cotea
kalafonte wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:17 PM
"„We invite you to join us in bringing light back to our lands. Arthur is dead, and hordes of monsters and brigands, and worse, travel the land. Our enemies gather to tear down what we have built. Join us and protect the realm from it’s adversaries. It will be an adventure worthy of song and verse, to be sure.

If you so choose, you may joing the defenders of Albion, what remains of Arthur’s realm, with fair Camelot at it’s center. Fight with weapons and magic and rise among the ranks of protectors.

We are the protectors of the land of Arthur, the greatest of kings. Ours is the fair land of Albion and none fairer do grace this Earth. We have need of strong arms and quick minds, as we are ever vigialnt against the black hordes that spring up nearly everywhere, save the halls of Camelot themselves. You may win renown and great rewards from your efforts. Come join those who defend Albion!

By Thor’s Hammer and Odin’s Mighty Beard, there are none who love a good fight more then the Vikings. And fight we shall, wherever our enemies may gather. Come to the land of the old gods and wield your sword or hammer with us. None can stand against our might, for we love battle like none other. Be a mighty here, even among the greatest of us, and the skalds shall tell your tale in ages to come.

The others may tempt you with mighty deeds and fine words, but in Hibernia we keep closest to the oldest of the spirits of the Earth. Ours is the most mystical land, imbued with the spirit of ancient days and ancient powers. If you desire to fight with us against the encroachment of evil and darkness, come to the most magical land of all, Hibernia.

Whichever Realm you choose, you will find compatriots ready to wield sword and axe, hammer and spear, to cast mighty spells and to travel beside you. You will have no dearth of enemies to vanquish. Are you ready, then? As every journey must start somewhere, yours will start here!”

The Team of Dark Age of Camelot: Phoenix is dedicated to bring back those great times and deliver a truly unique gaming experience that offers satisfying, highly social and rewarding gameplay."

- The server launches on Saturday the 12th of January 2019 at 12pm CEST (i.e. noon in Berlin, 6am New York, 3am San Francisco and 7pm in Sydney) - and is free to play!

Some key features of DAoC: Phoenix ( https://playphoenix.online/ )

- One server, one community: Get to know your fellow players and foes on the battlefield and fight for your realm to ensure the victory! Well-done server homepage showing current active players, a wiki section, forums and a working herald

- A stable server, that can handle thousands of players online at the same time without lags, providing a smooth gameplay experience

- Unique Quality-of-Life features, giving classic DAoC a completely new kind of playability while maintaining the true classic feel of the game

- Faster Leveling compared to old classic DAoC

- /train command usable anywhere in the world, anytime. No need to travel back to your trainer, promoting group play and making leveling with friends a lot more enjoyable and fun

- Phoenix Feathers: Custom loot that drops off of high level monsters and bosses in dungeons: You can buy special boss items, respec stones, tinctures, weapon enamels and crafting ingredients with them

- Phoenix eggs: Drop off of monsters when leveling solo, can be turned in at class trainers for additional experience gains

- A classic approach to the game with a pre-Trials of Atlantis ruleset with the Old Frontiers zones

- Shrouded Isles content with Caer Sidhi, Galladoria and Tuscaran Glacier Raids and working SI classes and content

- The new server experience where everyone is starting out fresh and no one is already dominating the battlefield (which is basically the case on the official DAoC servers): This doesn’t come around very often and is a very vivid and unique experience!



So if you like classic DAoC and have played it in the past and want to experience this great game again, waiting for CU to launch, on a server with a hard-working staff and dedicated player base, come join Phoenix on January 12th 2019!"


This was posted by the phoenix GM's back before the server opened as an advertisement of kinds in the forums. amazing how much things have changed. I really love the part that talks about "maintaining the true classic feel of the game". It seems that now the devs have started to drink the same cool-aid that the live devs have been drinking, and we are starting to get some of the same crazy changes.... how about we just leave things be?!?! change is what eventually killed live, i think we can all agree on that. And now we are following in the same footsteps here. It seems that the small percentage of people who have the time to sit on the forums and bitch all day long are the only people here with a voice... I'm sure im not alone in wishing the changes would stop. Live didnt change all it once, it changed little by little over the years untll it became a game we could not recognize anymore. look at the original post they posted, and think about how much has changed already..

I dont know what drugs this guy is on! Keeping things the same kills the game as much as drastic changes! Old Frontiers is nothing but nostalgia that is immensely flawed (keeps are the best example here) I hope you have a huge wakeup call that the thing about change.. is that its inevitable whether you like it or not! Not always good and not always bad but it happens, so get use to it.... Oh wait i forgot there actually is 1 server for you that has no change!! its called Uthgard! Have fun playing on your own /shrug (Best example of what happens to a server that wont change anything!
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:52 PM by Centenario
I wrote this on the style changes thread last time.

What about almost useless styles, for example:

21 DW style Penumbra: Follow-up of Back Style (Shadow Edge) w/ 0.93 growth, 10 endo cost, 15 hit bonus
Is to be used instead of:
12 DW style Eclipse: Follow-up of Back Style (Shadow Edge) w/ 0.92 growth, 10 endo cost, 10 hit bonus, 18% haste debuff for 20s

You get 0.01 increased growth and 5 hit bonus, and you lose the 18% haste debuff, you also have to put another skill on your bars...
Either it was supposed to be a third-style chain or it's missing some kinda proc.
Overall that style @21DW is so bad, it doesn't feel like an upgrade.

If I compare with Celtic Dual Back 3-style chain:
8CD
10CD
15CD at least this is a third-style chain, and it gives a bonus to defense.

It would be great to change Penumbra @21DW, but if you want to get rid of 3-style chains...
In Left-Axe they got a 3-style chain:
29LA: 0.95 growth, 10 hit bonus, (which should be at 0.69 growth if you compare to shadow's edge)
44LA: 1.10 growth, 15 hit bonus, bleeding
50LA: 1.25, 15 hit bonus, 5 endo, 95 cold DD

What I would have done is to put the 50DW style Dual Shadow at lvl 21 and create a new style at 50DW similar to the 50LA one, as a third-style chain to Shadow-Edge + Eclipse + New Style.
I think that the back snare should be in a basic weapon line and not in dual wield, but for sure the 21 dw style should be reworked.
Why give backsnare only to mercenary?? Then maybe give minstrel access to polearm line? Or give paladin a good 1-style backsnare in 2-handed too.
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:48 PM by gruenesschaf
kalafonte wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:17 PM
...
This was posted by the phoenix GM's back before the server opened as an advertisement of kinds in the forums.
...

No staff member, past or present, was involved in the making of that text or the associated launch trailer.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 12:14 AM by Freudinio
Cotea wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:49 PM
kalafonte wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:17 PM
"„We invite you to join us in bringing light back to our lands. Arthur is dead, and hordes of monsters and brigands, and worse, travel the land. Our enemies gather to tear down what we have built. Join us and protect the realm from it’s adversaries. It will be an adventure worthy of song and verse, to be sure.

If you so choose, you may joing the defenders of Albion, what remains of Arthur’s realm, with fair Camelot at it’s center. Fight with weapons and magic and rise among the ranks of protectors.

We are the protectors of the land of Arthur, the greatest of kings. Ours is the fair land of Albion and none fairer do grace this Earth. We have need of strong arms and quick minds, as we are ever vigialnt against the black hordes that spring up nearly everywhere, save the halls of Camelot themselves. You may win renown and great rewards from your efforts. Come join those who defend Albion!

By Thor’s Hammer and Odin’s Mighty Beard, there are none who love a good fight more then the Vikings. And fight we shall, wherever our enemies may gather. Come to the land of the old gods and wield your sword or hammer with us. None can stand against our might, for we love battle like none other. Be a mighty here, even among the greatest of us, and the skalds shall tell your tale in ages to come.

The others may tempt you with mighty deeds and fine words, but in Hibernia we keep closest to the oldest of the spirits of the Earth. Ours is the most mystical land, imbued with the spirit of ancient days and ancient powers. If you desire to fight with us against the encroachment of evil and darkness, come to the most magical land of all, Hibernia.

Whichever Realm you choose, you will find compatriots ready to wield sword and axe, hammer and spear, to cast mighty spells and to travel beside you. You will have no dearth of enemies to vanquish. Are you ready, then? As every journey must start somewhere, yours will start here!”

The Team of Dark Age of Camelot: Phoenix is dedicated to bring back those great times and deliver a truly unique gaming experience that offers satisfying, highly social and rewarding gameplay."

- The server launches on Saturday the 12th of January 2019 at 12pm CEST (i.e. noon in Berlin, 6am New York, 3am San Francisco and 7pm in Sydney) - and is free to play!

Some key features of DAoC: Phoenix ( https://playphoenix.online/ )

- One server, one community: Get to know your fellow players and foes on the battlefield and fight for your realm to ensure the victory! Well-done server homepage showing current active players, a wiki section, forums and a working herald

- A stable server, that can handle thousands of players online at the same time without lags, providing a smooth gameplay experience

- Unique Quality-of-Life features, giving classic DAoC a completely new kind of playability while maintaining the true classic feel of the game

- Faster Leveling compared to old classic DAoC

- /train command usable anywhere in the world, anytime. No need to travel back to your trainer, promoting group play and making leveling with friends a lot more enjoyable and fun

- Phoenix Feathers: Custom loot that drops off of high level monsters and bosses in dungeons: You can buy special boss items, respec stones, tinctures, weapon enamels and crafting ingredients with them

- Phoenix eggs: Drop off of monsters when leveling solo, can be turned in at class trainers for additional experience gains

- A classic approach to the game with a pre-Trials of Atlantis ruleset with the Old Frontiers zones

- Shrouded Isles content with Caer Sidhi, Galladoria and Tuscaran Glacier Raids and working SI classes and content

- The new server experience where everyone is starting out fresh and no one is already dominating the battlefield (which is basically the case on the official DAoC servers): This doesn’t come around very often and is a very vivid and unique experience!



So if you like classic DAoC and have played it in the past and want to experience this great game again, waiting for CU to launch, on a server with a hard-working staff and dedicated player base, come join Phoenix on January 12th 2019!"


This was posted by the phoenix GM's back before the server opened as an advertisement of kinds in the forums. amazing how much things have changed. I really love the part that talks about "maintaining the true classic feel of the game". It seems that now the devs have started to drink the same cool-aid that the live devs have been drinking, and we are starting to get some of the same crazy changes.... how about we just leave things be?!?! change is what eventually killed live, i think we can all agree on that. And now we are following in the same footsteps here. It seems that the small percentage of people who have the time to sit on the forums and bitch all day long are the only people here with a voice... I'm sure im not alone in wishing the changes would stop. Live didnt change all it once, it changed little by little over the years untll it became a game we could not recognize anymore. look at the original post they posted, and think about how much has changed already..

I dont know what drugs this guy is on! Keeping things the same kills the game as much as drastic changes! Old Frontiers is nothing but nostalgia that is immensely flawed (keeps are the best example here) I hope you have a huge wakeup call that the thing about change.. is that its inevitable whether you like it or not! Not always good and not always bad but it happens, so get use to it.... Oh wait i forgot there actually is 1 server for you that has no change!! its called Uthgard! Have fun playing on your own /shrug (Best example of what happens to a server that wont change anything!

There are plenty of examples of what happens to servers when they change too much.

None of these are online.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 12:40 AM by Freudinio
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:25 AM
This is the "opening statement" / staff suggestions for the discussions regarding the alb tanker buff part of the 8v8 balance changes with community involvement.

The core "tanker" setup would be: Merc Merc Arms Sorc Theu Cler Cler Minst
Variations include swapping 1 cleric for friar, arms for pala, 1 merc for pala, 1 merc for necro, 1 merc for cab, theu for necro or theu for cab

The first problem is that people want a peeler where arms is just the best option, people also want the very strong full tank ras. At the same time, tanker with only end 3 is an actual problem. The next issue is people want the other resists but a friar is, in terms of healing capabilities as well as ras, a worse choice than cleric. The final issue is merc and the lack of a back snare.

The starting point for the discussions on how to "fix" it would be this:
The 21 dw style penumbra will be removed from the back chain and become a back opener with a snare component and a growth rate reduction to normal back opener levels.

There are imo two class candidates that could be buffed accordingly to resolve the other issues. The first candidate is the paladin and the other the friar.

For the friar I see potential that isn't too far fetched and will earn the least resistance, the assumption here is the replacement of 1 cleric with the friar:
The non controversial, or at least less controversial, change here would be to add a group endurance consumption reduction buff to the friar. This would resolve the endurance issue.
The other issue is the healing capabilities, the most pressing issue here is how easy it is to lock down the friar resulting in zero output, this would be fine if the friar were just the third support as is the case with warden or to a lesser extent bard/shaman, however, in the most likely resulting setup the friar will act as the second healer. I could see a low 25% single target instant on a 2 minute cooldown that cannot be used on the friar itself. Alternatively, to really drive it home that this is just a crutch to allow the friar to be a viable cleric replacement, it could be a 50% instant that's reduced by 25% per primary healer in group, however, that seems rather unlikely to be necessary.

The paladin change would go in a different direction and assume a replacement of the minstrel by the paladin, to make this possible the paladin would receive a speed 5 chant. This would make it viable to include a paladin while at the same time not being a clear cut albion buff as the friar route would be as the utility of the minstrel would be lost.

I think that most of the changes make sense. Though I do feel this is dangerous territory.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:02 AM by boomber
Seems like these changes will just make the population imbalance even more favorable to alb?

they slightly nerf the alb body train, only to immediately suggest changes to make their melee train better as well? and pally speed 5? well....yay for albs.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:24 AM by daytonchambers
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 12:14 AM
There are plenty of examples of what happens to servers when they change too much.

None of these are online.

There's a perfect example of what happens to a DAOC server when they refuse to change at all. It's called Uthgard. 5000 players to 50 in what? 3 years, or less?

I agree that change just for the sake of change isn't a great idea (hello, ToA) But.... to change NOTHING at all, ever, has it's own laundry list of issues which Uth proved in spectacular fashion.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:31 AM by stridberg
Equalizing in a way where every realm gets everything feels like such a direct violation of what makes this game good. Mercs not having a backsnare in their DW line is great because they're mercs and not bms. Albs not having celerity is great because they're albs and not mids.
Rather than equalizing it would be awesome to see buffs cater to a realms unique traits, for example working something out that makes the necro AF debuffs find their way into groups more.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:04 AM by Lawdawg
My 2 cents.
- If you run Alb tanker without a necro, you cut your damage in half. What you have listed as core tanker setup is subpar imo.
- For the love of all that is DAOC, dont give another class a friggin melee snare...(less = more)
- Paladin with speed 5 is confusing and would never replace the minstrels role due to lack of interrupt utility, pet, mez, range stun, etc etc
- I wouldnt run 2 clerics now, over cleric/friar . There's no need for a buff here imo. The friar is just fine.
- Tanker with end 3 is not a problem (endo pots work great).
- Drop the Theur (or a cleric as far as that goes) and replace with a necro. Now you dont have to make any class changes. All good
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:16 AM by rogueyak
Chiming in.

Merc back snare is a much needed option, insanely difficult to chase someone and get them snared with a side style. This makes it really hard to peel in most cases.

Friars only change that they need really is a slightly better group heal. doesn't have to be as good as cleric but something a little better than baseline would help a LOT. Constantly having to have LOS is difficult. For getting themselves interrupted I agree with others here: Side snare is so good and easy to land that it's pretty easy to peel yourself as a friar. I do think the group endurance reduction buff for making them more group friendly is a good idea though.

Paladin getting speed 5 is too weird. Just give them a better snare style option in slash/thurst/crush or something. Perhaps a shield related snare style? Giving them speed feels like bordering on a different class.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:30 AM by Freudinio
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:24 AM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 12:14 AM
There are plenty of examples of what happens to servers when they change too much.

None of these are online.

There's a perfect example of what happens to a DAOC server when they refuse to change at all. It's called Uthgard. 5000 players to 50 in what? 3 years, or less?

I agree that change just for the sake of change isn't a great idea (hello, ToA) But.... to change NOTHING at all, ever, has it's own laundry list of issues which Uth proved in spectacular fashion.

And I am saying that there are even more examples of servers who changed DAoC at it's core and none of these are online any longer.

Giving a Mercenary a back snare is hardly going to break the format of the game. Giving Paladin a speed 5 chant on the other hand...
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:11 AM by daytonchambers
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:30 AM
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:24 AM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 12:14 AM
There are plenty of examples of what happens to servers when they change too much.

None of these are online.

There's a perfect example of what happens to a DAOC server when they refuse to change at all. It's called Uthgard. 5000 players to 50 in what? 3 years, or less?

I agree that change just for the sake of change isn't a great idea (hello, ToA) But.... to change NOTHING at all, ever, has it's own laundry list of issues which Uth proved in spectacular fashion.

And I am saying that there are even more examples of servers who changed DAoC at it's core and none of these are online any longer.

Giving a Mercenary a back snare is hardly going to break the format of the game. Giving Paladin a speed 5 chant on the other hand...

Which servers were those? I can only recall a few private servers, Uth1 (retired to be upgraded) then Genesis (collapsed due to dev corruption poisoning the community) then Uth2. None of these servers varied wildly from the core game that was Live circa 2002ish. This is unless you count the DoL servers with completely different rule-sets that never had large populations to begin with.

Anyways..... a Snare Solution:
Take the broken Scout-only shield style and nerf it to a 50% snare vs the silly 99% "snare" that it is currently. Then remove the class and realm restrictions on it, so that any tank or light tank who wants a spammable snare has access to one. Zerks and Savages wouldn't get it of course, but they don't have peel issues in the first place.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 4:54 AM by Lawdawg
Anyways..... a Snare Solution:
Take the broken Scout-only shield style and nerf it to a 50% snare vs the silly 99% "snare" that it is currently. Then remove the class and realm restrictions on it, so that any tank or light tank who wants a spammable snare has access to one. Zerks and Savages wouldn't get it of course, but they don't have peel issues in the first place.
[/quote]

You obviously have never played a scout....the recent 14 to 10 sec nerf to Stop, made it nearly useless....and if you cant beat a scout on a hunter, you should try something different....
Thu 24 Dec 2020 5:06 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Lawdawg wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 4:54 AM
You obviously have never played a scout....the recent 14 to 10 sec nerf to Stop, made it nearly useless....and if you cant beat a scout on a hunter, you should try something different....

Way to completely miss the point and make up a new one all your own.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 6:32 AM by Lawdawg
Solution to this tanker issue - Add maulers to all 3 realms.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 6:47 AM by Kazimir
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 11:48 PM
kalafonte wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 6:17 PM
...
This was posted by the phoenix GM's back before the server opened as an advertisement of kinds in the forums.
...

No staff member, past or present, was involved in the making of that text or the associated launch trailer.

Aha But for me the person, which postet the text, had a brilliant idea and a nice vision of a fine Daoc without the crap and mistakes on Live were done ... bad luck that the person was and is not involved to the decisions concerning Phönix. Take a look at your Herald how many people already left the boat, how many guilds are only a name without active chars.

After playing Phönix since release i see a unbalanced realm war. From the perspective of a mid you can play solo, small man or fg - you have a chance to win a fight. But if you have to run with many groups because of your enemies do it too midgard has bad cards. I think there are several reasons for this and its not my job to find out. But giving albion more love as they already got is definitely the wrong way ...

Greetings and merry christmas
Thu 24 Dec 2020 7:51 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Kazimir wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 6:47 AM
But giving albion more love as they already got is definitely the wrong way ...

Maybe read the entire announcement and see that this is step one of a multi-step process where Mid and Hib casters are being buffed and Hib tanks are being nerfed?
Thu 24 Dec 2020 8:07 AM by Patron
+1 Kazimir
The staff get confronted with albion love since serverstart. Staff denied and tell their not favourizing any realm, ofc they say it...
And its a bad signal and intentioned, albion is the first realm which get uped. Why is that?

Maybe Albion starts with "A" and thats why they got first?

where Mid and Hib casters are being buffed
Ah, thats why they decrease the resist-debuff? Ok got it.

Humans dont like change, even in a 20 year old MMORPG. And maybe the changes have good effect. But maybe they chatter their community.
Definitly player which choose a classconcept because of the past state, will get upset. XP-Phase is not the worst, the worst is the tempting of a char.
Staff decide to nerf a specific class or a archetype, player decide to leave or stay.

I wish they would bind the community in the process, to lets try it on the test server and give statements, maybe just 10 player random of each realm or such...
Thu 24 Dec 2020 8:20 AM by Sepplord
letting random players decide on balance changes is the worst Idea so far in this thread.

Thankfully they have already said they will be looking for rrwasonabke and knowledgeable people to build discussion group.
I don't even consider myself a good addition to that group as i lack 8vs8 knowledge and have slight Midgard bias, but randomly chosing someone would be total hell
Thu 24 Dec 2020 9:10 AM by gruenesschaf
Patron wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 8:07 AM
+1 Kazimir
The staff get confronted with albion love since serverstart. Staff denied and tell their not favourizing any realm, ofc they say it...
And its a bad signal and intentioned, albion is the first realm which get uped. Why is that?

Maybe Albion starts with "A" and thats why they got first?

where Mid and Hib casters are being buffed
Ah, thats why they decrease the resist-debuff? Ok got it.

Humans dont like change, even in a 20 year old MMORPG. And maybe the changes have good effect. But maybe they chatter their community.
Definitly player which choose a classconcept because of the past state, will get upset. XP-Phase is not the worst, the worst is the tempting of a char.
Staff decide to nerf a specific class or a archetype, player decide to leave or stay.

I wish they would bind the community in the process, to lets try it on the test server and give statements, maybe just 10 player random of each realm or such...

Please remind me again which realm ran pretty much exclusively caster, which realms were hit by a 6 - 7% caster nerf and which realm was hit by a 12 - 13% caster nerf just yesterday?
Remind me also, which realm dominates the gtae scene and wasn't there a change to how gtae works in terms of los months ago or gtassist recently? Also remind me which realm cares the most about caster pets, could it possibly be the necro or the theurgist ice pets and wasn't there a change to require 2 los checks for pets as well?

Ah that doesn't count, right because it doesn't fit in your narrative.

Since it's useless to deny and any actions contra to the narrative are ignored, from this point forward any claims of bias against or for a certain realm will see the post deleted and the person permanently muted in the forum, really cba anymore to care about that.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 9:36 AM by Hedien
I think setup(s) adjustments are good. (as a general concept) I think that they should be timed with population imbalance in mind.

If Albion is overpopulated, look at what could be nerfed to alb (body LT train) and what could be boosted on other realm (bard root) to trigger potential balancing moves.
Let it stabilize a bit, before implementing these tanker buff. Else the transfers will be within albion from caster to melee which will not improve the balance so much.

Sat/Faturday.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 9:38 AM by Zolda
my main is a mercenary and i dont want a change for a back snare, have only the side peel make the gameplay more attractive because you can also perma use your side peel if you do well

i also play blademaster and i feel that more boring & fairless to got both snare side & behind, your opponent cant do nothing to counter that and you just have to spam your both style with /stick :s ...

all of that that give a different gameplay on each class (bm & merc) and i dont want have the same class on different realm

for me all realm advantages & disadvantages make the game great

if you want absolutly up mercenary, just up the bonus to hit of flank, its pretty hard to have 0% on side style, if you miss you dont have often the opportunity to do it again, and specially if you have to face hib group with PTB 6sec

Zoky Mercenary 9L
Zaay Blademaster 6L
Thu 24 Dec 2020 9:42 AM by Enyore
Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 9:36 AM
I think setup(s) adjustments are good. (as a general concept) I think that they should be timed with population imbalance in mind.

If Albion is overpopulated, look at what could be nerfed to alb (body LT train) and what could be boosted on other realm (bard root) to trigger potential balancing moves.
Let it stabilize a bit, before implementing these tanker buff. Else the transfers will be within albion from caster to melee which will not improve the balance so much.

Sat/Faturday.

Good point - but also have to be careful with adjusting classes due to population imbalance as it can end up being the never ending story.... all it takes is a zerg leader to jump sides and population will surely follow... its a proven fact and then you can start all over again with adjustments.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 11:16 AM by Kyllikki
I think adding speed 5 on pal is crazy, it would be interesting for tank setup but we would see other op setup: 5 body train with a slam (O_0), 2 theu necro sorc cab with a slam etc...

imho tanker alb is hard to play because:

1. There is not enought slots in grp:
- they need a caster (sorc) with 2k hp which will have to do litteraly everything: supports can't help him to cc and rupt like on hib/mid
- they need a minst for speed/sos with almost 0 dmg
- they need a pal for endu

Last point is questionnable but to be equal with other realms, that's already 5 slots (with 2 supp) whereas on hib you have everything with 3/4 slots.

2. Consequently you have to chose:
- add more rupt (add a theu) because a solo sorc will probably have to run most of the time and a minst won't rupt 3 or 4 decents supports alone
- compensate dps (add a necro)

If you add both that's more an hybrid setup
If you add a necro, opposite grp will juste have to focus cc on 2 tanks and focus rupt on solo sorc (mainly because cleric/friar can't cc/rupt like healer/druid as already said)
If you add a theu and no necro, against hib setup with 4 supp, gl to kill something

3. Alb tanker don't have a disease and suffer too much from it
- because of 1., alb can't have a lot of melee dps, if they can't even disease it, they won't kill anything
- it's easy to kite alb tanker on hib/mid: shaman can just press mongo pbae disease next to tanks and they won't catch anyone and because of 1. even hib tanker can play with solo eld who will do the same.

(I don't talk about peel because I think the back peel of BM is op and should be nerf, not be given to other realms)

To fix 1., 2. and 3. my suggestions:
- add a disease proc on an hybrid (pal, reaver, friar? why now, we would see alb compo with 2 cleric and 1 melee friar that would be nice) like on the vw
- remove snare on disease (whine inc but it would nerf alb body train as you wished too ^^)
- add a single mezz or whatever on cleric (just like single mezz on healer and single root on druid) to be able for them to rupt/cc and to allow setup without a sorc.

but tbh big changes are needed to allow alb tanker and that's more and more like live servers.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 11:36 AM by Enyore
Kyllikki wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 11:16 AM
imho tanker alb is hard to play because:

1. There is not enought slots in grp:
- they need a caster (sorc) with 2k hp which will have to do litteraly everything: supports can't help him to cc and rupt like on hib/mid
- they need a minst for speed/sos with almost 0 dmg
- they need a pal for endu

You have to think outside the box here.....

- Why do they need a sorc?
Some of alb tanker pugs that do run EU time runs with a sorc, but you actually do not have to.

- Minstrel does not do 0 damage if they run with the red pet?
Every thing they can do they can do while on the run so they are ideal as supporting albion tanker group while pushing.

- Why do they need a paladin for endu?
With Legion charge and an endurance pot you can get a long way its better with paladin endu but its not by any means impossible without.

My favorite alb tanker was definitely: Mins Mins Cleric Cleric Necro Arms Arms Merc .... so much fun playing that in the beginning of the server when it was still OF and the group was (and still is) perfectly viable.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 12:16 PM by Kyllikki
You can play without a sorc and with 2 minst and I don't doubt you had fun.

But it's suicide against good groups:
- you can't rupt their casters/supp without any spells with more than 1500 range and they will put a lot of pressure on your group
- everyone will be NS and disease at inc too, you start every fights in very bad position

Your only solution is to waste one sos at inc and even after that you don't have a disease to keep them close. I don't call that a viable solution, Pale did decents fights with a similar setup but had few chance against good groups, even with minsts we couldn't cc.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:06 PM by DJ2000
Necro has an unbreakable AoE snare with 1500/350.
Power transfer and mana/Life tap with 1500 as well.
Why does everyone always just talk only about the AF debuff(s)?
The rather clunky Pet mechanic/pathing and the hard-CC weakness are the only downsides, as simple "rupt" does not faze him.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:10 PM by Idra
What about giving pally a curse disease chant pulsing aura like reaver. Will give a use in assist facing spamming disease shams, while disease is here too much power full because it gets no immunity. The friar will be free to heal instead of spending all his mana to cure, and so will be more usefull for the grp. Make friar's heal cost a bit less mana because 4 major heal, or 3 hot, and mana bar is out. Casting time of friar's heal are way too long too...
For the reaver, maybe a pulsing disease aura...?
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:14 PM by sdar86
Marneux wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:38 AM
When you said changes on paladin or friar, at first i thought you would say something like adding celerity chant to paladin to make it more appealing in the grp, but i would never expect that plot twist.

May i ask why a simply change in adding celerity on paladin is not viable option? instead of doing those crazy changes.

Cheers.

As official server celerity + add group damage (it's best option) and hot instead lineament
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:53 PM by gromet12
Not that many care and I've seen this covered in the numerous postings already...

Needed Fixes: QOL issues that cause balance/class concerns

Remove endo3 and LW1 from the game. No class should have perma sprint other than the endo5 classes and need the endo5 classes to achieve. Just this simple change would've changed the 5 body alb groups because they could not endlessly kite.

Spec AF imbalances: Friars have the weakest armor when hit vs other 2ndr healers (leather vs studded/chain). For this, they have self spec AF and self absorb buff. Every 2ndry healer received spec AF buff here. Increase all self AF buffers (Friar/Hunter/Ranger) self AF buffs by 50 (value of the potion). At this time only Alb or self spec AFers had access to Spec AF other than charges. I'm glad its on all realms, but my bard gets benefit from it while my friar is the same as he was while everyone else benefits from that buff

Friar self lvl 33 (105 value) and lvl 45 (117 value) (adjust the lower spells to the lvl 10 combined pot, haven't used it but I suspect 25?) (all self- spec AF buffers should get this)
Friar heal proc moved to 25% as it is on live
Friars enhance spec CON based Haste
Add the Bard group spec heal to Friars, and Shaman (most shamans go 20 rejuvy and will get the lvl 17 136hps heal)
Add group cure disease/poison to 2ndry healers (Friar/Warden/Shaman)

Add ability for Friars to have a get-a-way (shamans have pbaoe disease, bards have insta cc and now a root, friars have....Wardens have pbt still going so some group help)
Add this ability to each realm: (grasping roots)
In front of the target
Medium Bonus
High Bonus
Low
Medium
PBAoE Root, 350 radius, 10s duration

Friars get at 34 removing the rear snare from HS, and making in frontal pbaoe root
VW get grasping roots back as lvl 34 style
Mid is difficult to place...I would do Skalds in axe line lvl 29 frontal changed to have this effect

Try to avoid classes that could just spam this to get distance and cast dmg (Thanes for example, they already get cheese slam/st/slam bs)

And since at it...No class has slam with speed. Give caster speed to friars if you want to up there speed. Healers have caster speed, shamans have perma spring, Bards have speed5, wardens have caster speed, alb healers have...nada. If you want to add speed to another class in alb, don't add speed 5, but give friars caster speed
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:02 PM by biGGio
sdar86 wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:14 PM
Marneux wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 10:38 AM
When you said changes on paladin or friar, at first i thought you would say something like adding celerity chant to paladin to make it more appealing in the grp, but i would never expect that plot twist.

May i ask why a simply change in adding celerity on paladin is not viable option? instead of doing those crazy changes.

Cheers.

As official server celerity + add group damage (it's best option) and hot instead lineament

Agreed. They did it on live for good reason. Meta here is stale. Alb caster over and over. Make it 1k range so tanks need to be near you to force some sort of coordination, increase mids celerity range to 1500. People would run paladin without major changes/reworks to other classes and would make for some interesting changes. Just don't make DR how it was like on live xD Don't need to get 2 shot by armsmen again at cap speed.

That would increase the number of alb tankers and include paladins. It would reduce the # of reavers we see in rvr, which is a ton and for good reason. I don't disagree with DA included like they did the skald da/celerity line on live years back.

Next give chanters baseline root. This will increase hib caster groups.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:10 PM by biGGio
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 1:53 PM
Not that many care and I've seen this covered in the numerous postings already...

Needed Fixes: QOL issues that cause balance/class concerns

Remove endo3 and LW1 from the game. No class should have perma sprint other than the endo5 classes and need the endo5 classes to achieve. Just this simple change would've changed the 5 body alb groups because they could not endlessly kite.

Spec AF imbalances: Friars have the weakest armor when hit vs other 2ndr healers (leather vs studded/chain). For this, they have self spec AF and self absorb buff. Every 2ndry healer received spec AF buff here. Increase all self AF buffers (Friar/Hunter/Ranger) self AF buffs by 50 (value of the potion). At this time only Alb or self spec AFers had access to Spec AF other than charges. I'm glad its on all realms, but my bard gets benefit from it while my friar is the same as he was while everyone else benefits from that buff

Friar self lvl 33 (105 value) and lvl 45 (117 value) (adjust the lower spells to the lvl 10 combined pot, haven't used it but I suspect 25?) (all self- spec AF buffers should get this)
Friar heal proc moved to 25% as it is on live
Friars enhance spec CON based Haste
Add the Bard group spec heal to Friars, and Shaman (most shamans go 20 rejuvy and will get the lvl 17 136hps heal)
Add group cure disease/poison to 2ndry healers (Friar/Warden/Shaman)

Add ability for Friars to have a get-a-way (shamans have pbaoe disease, bards have insta cc and now a root, friars have....Wardens have pbt still going so some group help)
Add this ability to each realm: (grasping roots)
In front of the target
Medium Bonus
High Bonus
Low
Medium
PBAoE Root, 350 radius, 10s duration

Friars get at 34 removing the rear snare from HS, and making in frontal pbaoe root
VW get grasping roots back as lvl 34 style
Mid is difficult to place...I would do Skalds in axe line lvl 29 frontal changed to have this effect

Try to avoid classes that could just spam this to get distance and cast dmg (Thanes for example, they already get cheese slam/st/slam bs)

And since at it...No class has slam with speed. Give caster speed to friars if you want to up there speed. Healers have caster speed, shamans have perma spring, Bards have speed5, wardens have caster speed, alb healers have...nada. If you want to add speed to another class in alb, don't add speed 5, but give friars caster speed

Removing end 3 would make for a huge difference in the meta. People would be required to run end5 classes or at least end2 would punish groups that don't. Giant change if that were to occur.

Please don't say friars don't have a way to get away. If you practice for more than five minutes on the dummies, or against a buddy of yours, you should be able to peel yourself quite easily. That being said, not against a frontal pbae root if it gives immunity. If you're that lazy you want to face and press one button for 5-10 seconds of kiting instead of practicing side snaring when being chased im all for it. I'm not sure if you play any other realms but that friar side snare is a killer.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:35 PM by Idra
biGGio wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:02 PM
[
Next give chanters baseline root. This will increase hib caster groups.

Or remove stupid side stun on celtic dual and scythe since every bm/vw are straf abusing and castres grp will come back.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:44 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Idra wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:35 PM
Or remove stupid side stun on celtic dual and scythe since every bm/vw are straf abusing and castres grp will come back.

No BM is wasting your stun immunity on a 4 second side stun when he can get a 9 second anytime stun with his shield.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 2:53 PM by idknemore
Why is an admin/dev telling the community what the “core” tank group should be? A little heavy handed, don’t you think?
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:17 PM by Strikejk
Speed chant on Paladin is a big nope and I say that as a primarily Alb player. Having 2 speed5 classes would be way too OP, there is a reason each realm has only 1.

Friar buffs: Yay and Nay at the same time. Friars could need a buff, especially in the healing department to be more competitive with a cleric and especially lacking instants is a big problem here, so a yay there.
A nay however for the rest of the changes. I'm not saying it would not be nice to have endu reduction for the group on the Friar, but that would make Paladins even more useless than they are now. If Friars can fill the Pala role in terms of endu too, why would anyone ever take a Paladin ever again? The cross-over between both is already a big problem, this would increase it.

I think what is necessary here is to look at why each class is chosen, what they offer, why certain classes are not chosen and what they offer/lack.

A tanker group needs:
Speed, CC/anti CC, Both buff types, resists, heal, Dmg, snare, anti-snare (bubble), Rupt, synergy for example debuffs, endu5, stoicism as part of anti CC, group RAs
Speed: General speed and SOS is important to close gaps or reset bad positioning, there is only one choice, minstrel.
CC/Anti CC: Mezz, root, nearsight, demezz, nearsight clear and to a lesser degree disease, most of them filled by sorc and healers, also cabba.
Both buff types: Cleric/Cleric or Cleric/Friar
Resists: Cleric, Friar, Pala
Heal: Cleric/Cleric or Cleric/Friar
Snare: Currently there is only one real option, Armsman
Bubble: Only one option theurg
Rupt: Theurg, Sorc, Minstrel
Dmg: This is the only category that is somewhat open and has multiple choices. Armsman, Merc are top contenders with Paladin and Reaver secondary.
Debuffs: Necro with AF, Reaver with ABS, however Necro is by far stronger in terms of debuff capabilities, but Reaver adding a little bit of rupt and dmg on his own.
Endu5: Only one option Pala
Stocism: Arms, Merc
Group RAs: Arms, Cleric, Minstrel, (Friar with Static, Paladins with AoG, Reaver with TWF to some degree)

Now if you try to fill all these points you run in a big problem, the cap on group members. The utility density is way to spread out and there are little to no choices possible
Minstrel is fix, Sorc is fix, Arms is fix, Cleric is fix -> 4 slots gone
Fix to a tiny lesser degree is Friar/2nd Cleric, Theurg -> 2 slots gone
6 out of 8 slots gone with plenty of boxes not checked, no damage, no endu5, no synergy, no disease or nearsight, only a few group RAs.
Now from the remaining slots the most important is damage. Cause without damage you don't kill anything and thus you don't win.
Damage could in theory be filled by many but not having stoicism lowers the effective damage potential and the damage potential is Pala/Reaver is already low to begin with. This leads only one real option: Arms or Merc, hence the stacking of Mercs which is an often used choice.

Synergy however can change this, for example due to the Necro debuff it far outshines the performance of the rest of melees, even with one melee less in the group. Same would in theory be possible for a reaver but the required cold debuff does not synergies with any other melees.

Now we come to the conclusion that the best way to check more boxes from the list above would to include as many different chars as possible to get the spread-out utility on Albion classes into one group and the only real option are the 2 damage slots available. And the only reason this isn't filled by a Paladin for example (lets ignore reaver for now), is its lack of effective damage.
So how could we fix it. First why does he lack effective damage? Is it a lack of actual base damage with 2hand? A little bit, but the damage profile is decent with the 2hand spec, not great.
The big issue here is the effective damage, due to the lack of stoicism and the lack of powerful group RAs like the Armsman. How could this be changed?
- Adding stoicism, or adding celerity, probably both, but maybe celerity as RA.
This would increase the effective damage output on the battlefield and make it a viable contender to a merc. While with stoicism its own damage profile would still lack behind the one of a Merc with celerity he could counter that offset by increasing the overall group DPS, similar to AoG.

A similar thing could be done to the Reaver with stoicism and maybe an increase of his ABS debuff, but that is already a prominent character in BGs and unlike Paladin has a place to play in.
Paladin is currently a no-go in any RvR scenario be it 8v8 or BG. But he cant fit in the only slot that is left for him to fill, the damage department. He currently fits more in the slot of a supporter like Theurg or Friar, but those spots are already taken and cant easily be taken. He cant rupt like a Theurg even if he gets a bubble, or do the job a Minstrel does, even if he gets speed, nor can he fill the buff/heal capabilities of the Friar even tho he has resists.

His role is and should be the damage role in which he needs to fit. For damage he needs effective damage. For effective damage you need high base damage, stoicism to deliver it, RAs to increase it to you and the party and a snare is also very handy in allowing you and other members to keep the target pinned down to be damaged.

Giving his toys to Friar would only serve one option: The complete destruction of any Paladin in RvR till the end of time, because he has nothing of value to add to any group that isn't filled by others much better. If you don't believe me: have you ever invited a 50-Smite cleric to fill the role of a wizard? No. Why? Because why invite a subpar class for a role another class does much better.

TLDR;
Paladins need stoicism and celerity
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:28 PM by Neso
Feels like some are pushing for celerity on paladin purely so wardens get it at some point.

They only need a rework of what's in chants and their active RA selection.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:37 PM by Blitze
Paladin is already not played (bottom of most played classes in all types of RvR) and giving Friars Group end redux cant make it any worse. Friars aren’t a Particularly popular class either, and only rejuv friars get 8v8 grps.

The end problem is tough, cos of end3 pots, but running a tank grp on end 3 is hard. So maybe it would be useful to try and help make paladins a viable slot in alb tank.
Celerity makes sense for this (this would make paladins very good solo though)

Alternatively allow paladins to take the peeler slot; ie give them defensive RAs and/or stoicism.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:41 PM by Centenario
Strikejk wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:17 PM
TLDR;
Paladins need stoicism and celerity

I had similar reasoning to yours but not the same conclusion.
I think to give paladin a snare on the basic weapon line (backsnare, on crush/slash/thrust at 29spec) would allow him to switch to dpsing faster.
Then to give him annihilation style at 50 2-handed. Would also allow him to dps earlier. Also to sync his DA chant with his dps moment more easily. So he doesn’t have to slam/switch dps. Or right away dps with a 2handers instead of chasing with the shield.

Then for bubble and speed. I propose to give max speed to sorc, and give bubble to minstrel. This will unlock more slots for more classes.

Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 3:13 PM
Typical starting setup should be NS + Speed + Spec buffs + Cure NS + AoE Mezz + Amnesia + Bubble + Peel + Resists +Endo, in 4 classes

I think this would be a better way to improve the whole alb setup.

FOR ALB:
For Melees:
Just change the 29 thrust style to be similar to the hammerline backsnare.
Also give it to slash and crush and flex to not run into the midgard issue (everybody forced into hammer line)

For Reaver:
Give 10min CD aoe stun from Healer

For Paladin:
Give 2handed access to Annihilation style from large weapon, to not lose time pre-slaming.
Reduce the cooldown of taunt to 15second for range interrupt.

For Armsman:
Make Shoot Crossbow a 15 cd ability instant
Make Crossbow as strong as Scout Bow
Access to Annihilation in 2-handed

For Minstrel:
Give him pulse bubble
Give AoE Mezz spells of Healer (no instants)
Remove Abla
Remove spell Mezz Cure
Remove Speed 5
Give Casted Speed

For Theurg:
Remove pulse Bubble
Give Baseline Ranged Stun from Hib
Remove Air Pets
Give Pbaoe Ice Spell in Ice Line
Give Cure Mezz in Air Line
Give NS (for alternative to cabalist) in Earth Line

For Sorc:
Remove Bolt range on aoe mezz
Give Speed 5
Remove Root
Remove Debuffs
Remove Pet
Give Pbaoe Body Lifedrain Spell

For Friar:
Give Cleric-like Insta Heal single target (lower priority due to immunity)
Give group heal 10% every 30-45sec insta
Give Pbaoe Disease Instant
Give Debuffs
Give Range Casted Stun

Cleric:
Remove Range Casted Stun
Give Range casted Root and AoE Root
Make Pbaoe Mezz Instant Baseline.
Remove Spec AF buffs
Give Caster Range on DDs
Give Endo Casted buff 1000 range
Give 1min immunity to friar insta heal on cleric's insta heal target

Cabalist:
Give Cure Mezz in Spirit Line

Wizard:
Give Baseline Ranged Stun from Hib

Necro:
No Changes ^^

This becomes base group setup (4slots):
Sorc + Cleric +Theurg/Cab/Wiz + Minstrel

Sorc + Cleric should be somewhat equivalent to Shaman + Healer and to Bard + Druid.
Sorc + Cleric have access to Amnesia + Spec buff + Caster speed + 3 resists + AoE Mezz, more dps and quickcast bolt range
Shaman + Healer have Amnesia + Specc buff + Endo + Caster Speed + full resist + AoE Mezz, less speed more instants
Bard + Druid have accesss to Amnesia + Spec Buff + good Resists (3+) + Endo + Speed 5 , better spell but more micromanagement
If you add 1 class to this base setup for mid it is the skald for speed 5 and peels and more
For Hib its the Warden for Bubble, easier resists, more heal
For Alb its the paladin for endo? or the theurg for bubble, maybe cab/wiz for NS, or friar for resists its not a clear cut for sure, minstrel for speed 5 but its underperforming in many other ways, too many things are missing.
A fourth class for Mid is Runemaster for NS bubble and dps
A fourth class for Hib is Eldritch for NS and dps
A fourth class for Alb is Paladin or theurg or cab/wiz or friar? Maybe Armsman for caster setup, no clear cuts, classes abilities are badly spread between classes.

Either you go all in or you don't make most of these changes, its a whole ecosystem change at once, there isn't much room for half-measures with this solution, since it changes radically many classes.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 4:09 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Neso wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:28 PM
Feels like some are pushing for celerity on paladin purely so wardens get it at some point.

Then they're not paying attention; the fourth item on this patch's agenda is to nerf Hib tank groups, giving them access to celerity would be the exact opposite of that.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 4:46 PM by Wakefield
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 4:09 PM
Neso wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:28 PM
Feels like some are pushing for celerity on paladin purely so wardens get it at some point.

Then they're not paying attention; the fourth item on this patch's agenda is to nerf Hib tank groups, giving them access to celerity would be the exact opposite of that.

By look of it, they want to get rid of the uniqueness of each realm and just have red, green and blue teams, like live.

And look how that mess turned out.

This server used to be awesome, now it just seems the devs like change things every week for no reason when it was fine before.

It doesnt encourage new players, just pisses off those already here and makes them leave.

And I spent a lot of time here, now I see plans like this and just think, meh, I'll just boot another game up instead.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 5:51 PM by Sepplord
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 4:09 PM
Neso wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:28 PM
Feels like some are pushing for celerity on paladin purely so wardens get it at some point.

Then they're not paying attention; the fourth item on this patch's agenda is to nerf Hib tank groups, giving them access to celerity would be the exact opposite of that.

I agree and would even add:
If the current strongest Tanker group is a hibgrp why do so many people focus on celerity in the first place? Quite obviously it is not the requirement for strongest Tanker.
Bubble has a far bigger effect
Thu 24 Dec 2020 6:51 PM by Idra
Imo, pally should be considered as third healer,as soon as he got access to wild healing and Mastery of healing. Increasing the heal chant and maybe a cure disease/dot shout is the Best way to go.
For friar, rise the heal proc rate will give and give alb an unique gameplay as "hit to heal" Increasing the tanker utility compare to a mage grp.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 7:28 PM by Voso
The core "tanker" setup would be: Merc Merc Arms Sorc Theu Cler Cler Minst
This is not a tanker setup it is called an alb hybrid
A true alb tanker would be Merc,Merc,Arms,pala,friar,cleric,cleric,mini
If you want albs to play a tanker setup you must make full alb caster setup less appealing. Let’s go crazy and remove cure mezz from Sorc and give it to friar. Give cleric haste instead of theurg and reduce mini aoe mez to 3 seconds.
The first problem is that people want a peeler where arms is just the best option, people also want the very strong full tank ras.
Give Merc back snare similar in duration and style as BM>?
At the same time, tanker with only end 3 is an actual problem.
I think end3 would be a problem on all realms… Paladin should have to spec for end5 as shaman and bard do. They don’t need a 27sec snare and end5….
The next issue is people want the other resists but a friar is, in terms of healing capabilities as well as ras, a worse choice than cleric.
I think you described a warden not a friar… Why should alb only run 1 friar and 1 cleric. I don’t see any 1healer/1shaman or 1warden/1druid setups on mid/hib lately…

The final issue is merc and the lack of a back snare.
The starting point for the discussions on how to "fix" it would be this:
The 21 dw style penumbra will be removed from the back chain and become a back opener with a snare component and a growth rate reduction to normal back opener levels.
Seems like a great idea for Merc.
There are imo two class candidates that could be buffed accordingly to resolve the other issues. The first candidate is the paladin and the other the friar.

For the friar I see potential that isn't too far fetched and will earn the least resistance, the assumption here is the replacement of 1 cleric with the friar:
The non controversial, or at least less controversial, change here would be to add a group endurance consumption reduction buff to the friar. This would resolve the endurance issue.
The other issue is the healing capabilities, the most pressing issue here is how easy it is to lock down the friar resulting in zero output, this would be fine if the friar were just the third support as is the case with warden or to a lesser extent bard/shaman, however, in the most likely resulting setup the friar will act as the second healer. I could see a low 25% single target instant on a 2 minute cooldown that cannot be used on the friar itself. Alternatively, to really drive it home that this is just a crutch to allow the friar to be a viable cleric replacement, it could be a 50% instant that's reduced by 25% per primary healer in group, however, that seems rather unlikely to be necessary.

The paladin change would go in a different direction and assume a replacement of the minstrel by the paladin, to make this possible the paladin would receive a speed 5 chant. This would make it viable to include a paladin while at the same time not being a clear cut albion buff as the friar route would be as the utility of the minstrel would be lost.
I think you’re lost on this part. Albs shouldn’t run only friar and cleric. They have a lot of passive healing already with cleric defensive proc, paladin chants, friar hots. (I don’t see any hib 8s carrying a mana ment in group) A well-played friar is one of the strongest classes in the game. Paladin speed 5 is a terrible idea…
Thu 24 Dec 2020 7:56 PM by easytoremember
Remove endu from Pala and stick on some other class
Remove resist chants
Remove pom chant

Lower Pala 1 damage table

DamageAdd/Heal/AF are no longer pulses
DamageAdd is instant cast 15~ sec buff with 1000 radius, :05 RUT
Heal is instant cast with 1750 radius, :10 or :15 RUT
AF is instant cast 15~ sec buff with 1750 radius, cheap power cost, :05 RUT

Buff DamageAdd (higher than the usual 11.4), stacks with Elementist DA
Buff Heal delve significantly

add a HoT equivalent for Power, RUT 7:00~, heals 48 total power over 10 seconds, 1750 radius

Now Pala 'chants' require some brain instead of endlessly spamming with AHK, his power bar serves some purpose, wild healing/mastery of healing have visible gains, his absence no longer cripples Albion
Thu 24 Dec 2020 11:06 PM by Arla
I would like to see the game progress to where it was when there was a Bossiney classic cluster. The most balanced the game ever was. Make everything as it was there. Realms still had thier identities but there were some general concepts that were true among archetypes. Life was good, the game was fun.
Thu 24 Dec 2020 11:50 PM by Sepplord
People can have value in a discussion without being experts. Especially when self proclaimed experts have logical flaws in their Argumentation it can be easy to spot without knowing any Details about the topic at all. And us plebs can also learn stuff by being corrected.

Why limit the Input unless you feel staff is not capable of filtering out the bullshit?
Fri 25 Dec 2020 6:00 AM by Tyrlaan
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 4:09 PM
Neso wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:28 PM
Feels like some are pushing for celerity on paladin purely so wardens get it at some point.

Then they're not paying attention; the fourth item on this patch's agenda is to nerf Hib tank groups, giving them access to celerity would be the exact opposite of that.

That´s odd. Giving root to Bards has buffed Hib tankers by a lot. Before there were pros and cons to 2 Bards or 2 Druids. But 2 more players who can root will remove any need for a Nature Druid. Now it´s gonna be 2 Bards, Nurt Druid, Warden in every group.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 7:59 AM by Jingo NZ
The desire to even out the 8v8 kinks through proposing realm caster/tanker changes is interesting... But please remember the fun of the Even Playing Field event where people were incentisived (and found it fun) to run with any reasonable group without getting hung up on optimal loadouts.
I think this is where the effort should go: make the casual rvr experience fast action, rewarding and somewhat forgiving (ie get back into the fight quickly after wipe).
I'd like to see some form of autogroup come to regular rvr. There could even be an npc group member that could fill the last group slot if you need some crucial buff or group ability.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 10:01 AM by Simon73
Ele wrote: ↑
Wed 23 Dec 2020 12:31 PM
First of all, I appreciate the effort you put into shaking up the current meta. If there are no changes, the game gets stale, and some tweaks here and there can be refreshing.
We ran different setups on alb over phoenix's uptime, and the tanker really is the one lacking most, so thumbs up for adressing this.

you know that this game has been out since 2000 and people keep playing it .. so saying that the game gets stale it's kind of wrong..

For the rest i don't comment, i think the staff celebrated xmas with too much alcohool


I've got a 11L friar on live and used it ONLY for 8vs8. NEVER had the need to have a extra insta group heal, and NEVER needed group heals since in 8vs8 you just heal single targets... OMG now DI is bufffed up so much friar will do nothing
The need for group heals is just for the people that want to go in bg and spreadheal, so at this point give it also to shammy and wardens.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 10:03 AM by Simon73
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 6:00 AM
That´s odd. Giving root to Bards has buffed Hib tankers by a lot. Before there were pros and cons to 2 Bards or 2 Druids. But 2 more players who can root will remove any need for a Nature Druid. Now it´s gonna be 2 Bards, Nurt Druid, Warden in every group.

It's been like that since daoc has come out. Probably you've just started playing.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 10:06 AM by Centenario
On alb when we die to groups with 3healer+ we just say “they had 3healers » and its a valid excuse to losing unfairly.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 3:01 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 10:06 AM
On alb when we die to groups with 3healer+ we just say “they had 3healers » and its a valid excuse to losing unfairly.

What group runs three healers? Or do you mean three classes that can heal?

Legitimately asking the question, not looking for a fight.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 3:11 PM by Beeblebrox
To fix friar make HOT uninterruptible. It heals about as much in total as a decent heal spell but does it over a period of time. I do think friar needs more spec points. Perhaps more spec points would solve the problem without any more changes.

As for pally, I'm not in favor of giving them speed 5. I like the idea of tank RA's and/or stoicism.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 3:49 PM by Centenario
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 3:01 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 10:06 AM
On alb when we die to groups with 3healer+ we just say “they had 3healers » and its a valid excuse to losing unfairly.

What group runs three healers? Or do you mean three classes that can heal?

Legitimately asking the question, not looking for a fight.

Class that can heal, class that can insta, class that can spread buffs, class that can insta Rez, class that can cure, and many other perks.
I encounter very often:
Bard+bard+Druid or bard+Druid+warden or bard+Druid+Druid or healer+healer+shaman or even warden+Druid+bard+ment, also healer+healer+shaman+bd(heal pet).
On alb yoûll hardly find more than 2 healers, nobody plays them cause they are very undertuned, and because you need other classes abilities to be able to stand a chance.
Only good thing on alb was kite assist casters with 1armsman.
Will see what they can do to allow albs to have more options.
Maybe one day we will see 2 mercs possible, everybody wants to play merc, but the spot is always taken, so you just have to play whatever is needed on this order:
Cleric>Minst>Sorc>Cab>theurg>Arms>Friar>Merc>Paladin>Wiz>Reaver>necro>scout>infi
Fri 25 Dec 2020 3:50 PM by gromet12
Beeblebrox wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 3:11 PM
To fix friar make HOT uninterruptible. It heals about as much in total as a decent heal spell but does it over a period of time. I do think friar needs more spec points. Perhaps more spec points would solve the problem without any more changes.

As for pally, I'm not in favor of giving them speed 5. I like the idea of tank RA's and/or stoicism.

Friar HOT vs Bard Group Spec:

lvl 24 HOT 61 pwr---Heals group for 231 health over 15secs

Bard spells lvl 37 67 pwr (I'm going on pwr vs heal, that is what matters)---Heals group for 286 soon as the spell is cast

To compare the LOWEST spell if that matters to you---lvl 17 group spec 136 health for 36 pwr soon as the spell is cast (2 cast of this spell out heals the 15sec HOT)

Friars spell is a 4sec cast while Bards is 2.6secs

Please tell me how it is a decent spell and worth using for a Friar? You get better results using a baseline group than you do with the group HOT. They fixed this issue on live by lowering the power requirement of the group HOT, reducing the cast time and providing the friar with spec group heals.

Here:
Blessed Encouragement
Level
24
Cast Time
4s
Duration
15s
Frequency
3s
Power
61
Range
2000
Target
Group
Type
Heal Over Time
Value
37
**231 health over 15secs for 61pwr with a 4sec cast time

Live:
24
Blessed Encouragement
Group
3.0s/15 seconds, 3s pulse/0s
2000 range
40 health/pulse
35pwr

**250 health over 15secs for 35pwr with a 3sec cast time

To me it is still junk..but significant differences in the power and quicker cast time. They also have a group spec heal which combined with a HOT tick allows the friar to do group healing if needed other than spamming single targets fast as possible

Edit: Just to add, this is still cheaper that the lvl 24 version here

44
Divine Encouragement
Group
3.0s/15 seconds, 3s pulse/0s
2000 range
60 health/pulse 55pwr
**375 health over 15secs for 55 pwr with a 3 sec cast time almost doubles the lvl 24 spell here with still less power required
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:44 PM by Beeblebrox
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 3:50 PM
Beeblebrox wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 3:11 PM
To fix friar make HOT uninterruptible. It heals about as much in total as a decent heal spell but does it over a period of time. I do think friar needs more spec points. Perhaps more spec points would solve the problem without any more changes.

As for pally, I'm not in favor of giving them speed 5. I like the idea of tank RA's and/or stoicism.

Friar HOT vs Bard Group Spec:

lvl 24 HOT 61 pwr---Heals group for 231 health over 15secs

Bard spells lvl 37 67 pwr (I'm going on pwr vs heal, that is what matters)---Heals group for 286 soon as the spell is cast

To compare the LOWEST spell if that matters to you---lvl 17 group spec 136 health for 36 pwr soon as the spell is cast (2 cast of this spell out heals the 15sec HOT)

Friars spell is a 4sec cast while Bards is 2.6secs

Please tell me how it is a decent spell and worth using for a Friar? You get better results using a baseline group than you do with the group HOT. They fixed this issue on live by lowering the power requirement of the group HOT, reducing the cast time and providing the friar with spec group heals.

Here:
Blessed Encouragement
Level
24
Cast Time
4s
Duration
15s
Frequency
3s
Power
61
Range
2000
Target
Group
Type
Heal Over Time
Value
37
**231 health over 15secs for 61pwr with a 4sec cast time

Live:
24
Blessed Encouragement
Group
3.0s/15 seconds, 3s pulse/0s
2000 range
40 health/pulse
35pwr

**250 health over 15secs for 35pwr with a 3sec cast time

To me it is still junk..but significant differences in the power and quicker cast time. They also have a group spec heal which combined with a HOT tick allows the friar to do group healing if needed other than spamming single targets fast as possible

Edit: Just to add, this is still cheaper that the lvl 24 version here

44
Divine Encouragement
Group
3.0s/15 seconds, 3s pulse/0s
2000 range
60 health/pulse 55pwr
**375 health over 15secs for 55 pwr with a 3 sec cast time almost doubles the lvl 24 spell here with still less power required

Who cares how it compares to an interruptible spell? The whole point is to make it non-interruptible. It can be improved by increasing the heal per tick and/or reducing manna needed but that seems like overkill.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:55 PM by Anaris
Add the bard group spec heal to Friars and reduce the duration of Friar's Friend.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 6:23 PM by Romox
I for one am happy to see some change. I think keeping this server at an absolute classic experience is possible but players will eventually dwindle. Introducing new (but more importantly small) changes like a ns cure to sham and nerfing debuff spells throughout are helpful. It won’t stop here hopefully. I’m looking forward to more changes as long as it doesn’t become another game entirely lol.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 6:44 PM by Beeblebrox
Anaris wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:55 PM
Add the bard group spec heal to Friars and reduce the duration of Friar's Friend.

Having a spec group heal would be nice but it doesn't address the problem with friars as stated. It's too easy to lock them down so that can't cast anything.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 7:27 PM by Blitze
In its current form the Friar HoT is near useless and I don’t even put it on my hotbar, I don’t know if high rejuv Friars find some niches for it... I doubt it.

solution:
1. Increase healing, Half power cost, reduce cast time
2. Uninteruptable or even Instant with a recast.

However, instant would boost solo friars way too much. And uniteruptable would still improve Solo friar to a lesser extent.

Therefore, moderately improve the healing power/efficiency AND importantly make it castable when moving (which helps transient Friars switching from melee to heal & pre-kiting). From there re look at it in a few months to see if it’s actually helpful.


(Giving friars bard spec grp heal and grp end redux are no brainers... However, the lvl 18, 27s snare would have to be lowered (switch durations with lvl34 backs are) So Hibs don’t feel so trod on)

And plz fix paladins separately.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 7:31 PM by Tristain34
I played a Friar once and they don't need any of the changes. Play a cleric.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 7:38 PM by gromet12
Beeblebrox wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 6:44 PM
Anaris wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:55 PM
Add the bard group spec heal to Friars and reduce the duration of Friar's Friend.

Having a spec group heal would be nice but it doesn't address the problem with friars as stated. It's too easy to lock them down so that can't cast anything.

Friars and 2ndry healers in general dont need or shouldn't have insta heals. Keep that on the main healers, it means the best healers are still spec'ing into healing lines vs forgoing those lines for other lines. I still think making a style that does this would achieve the desired results, replacing the rear snare on Holy Staff with pbaoe frontal root. Give the same style to all realms, the VW since it is grasping roots (underplayed class) and mid is the hard choice. To me anything other than tanks and thanes (since they can cast dmg making them a power house already with the slam/st/cheese and this combined or make it VERY high in weaponspec so Thanes have to give up SC'ing)
Fri 25 Dec 2020 8:01 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Beeblebrox wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 6:44 PM
It's too easy to lock them down so that can't cast anything.

They're no easier to lock down than any other support class; they may lack instant CC, but they can self-peel with snares and Static Tempest, plus they have access to Determination.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 8:41 PM by Centenario
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 8:01 PM
Beeblebrox wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 6:44 PM
It's too easy to lock them down so that can't cast anything.

They're no easier to lock down than any other support class; they may lack instant CC, but they can self-peel with snares and Static Tempest, plus they have access to Determination.

When you go into EV and you get added by 8man upon 8man you cannot just rely on a high cd ST and a peel. You need to have something reliable, I suggest to give a range DD, either root or ranged stun, debuffs, maybe pbaoe instant disease/snare, some instant healing, reduced cd on taunt (or instant amnesia like bard). ^^ many things are needed to make friar viable.
Fri 25 Dec 2020 10:33 PM by Jingo NZ
I just thought of the perfect ability to add for Paladin and Friar (also for Shaman and Warden).

Paladin:
Heal effectiveness chant.
1000 range
Target = group mates (not self)
Increase healing effectiveness on target. +30/40/50% based on spell level.
Does not stack with multiple Paladins.

Paladin, Friar, Warden, Shaman:
Purge other.
1500 range
Target = realm mate (not self)
Cast instant
Purge all negative effects on target. Caster (you) are silenced and disarmed for 5 sec.
Recast cooldown 120 seconds.
Sat 26 Dec 2020 3:53 AM by msheen23
The next issue is people want the other resists but a friar is, in terms of healing capabilities as well as ras, a worse choice than cleric.

wardens are in the the same boat with worse snare and heals.

add haste to friar and the lowest level celerity to pally and warden at 50 chants/nurt. and lower friar side snare to 14 secs.

remove det from friar and give them DI
Sat 26 Dec 2020 9:45 AM by Idra
Imo, pally should be considered as third healer,as soon as he got access to wild healing and Mastery of healing. Increasing the heal chant and maybe a cure disease/dot shout is the Best way to go.
For friar, rise the heal proc rate will give and give alb an unique gameplay as "hit to heal" Increasing the tanker utility compare to a mage grp.
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:40 AM by Ele
The heal proc is already quite efficient in melee groups with four people + 2 pets swinging. Its delve is low enough to not have a huge impact against burst, but offering some healing against other slow-killing comps like 4/4 hib tanker. The HoT on the other hand really is a thing, as it is has the power cost of a spread heal, without offering much in combat. (I think it was already suggested but I can't find the post.) Anyways, allowing this to be casted whilst moving or using it as an instant on a low CD might be a way to improve the friars healing capabilities - not because I think the friars healing capabilities really need a buff, but because it otherwise stays an unused spell.

Jingo NZ wrote: I just thought of the perfect ability to add for Paladin and Friar (also for Shaman and Warden).

Paladin:
Heal effectiveness chant.
1000 range
Target = group mates (not self)
Increase healing effectiveness on target. +30/40/50% based on spell level.
Does not stack with multiple Paladins.

Paladin, Friar, Warden, Shaman:
Purge other.
1500 range
Target = realm mate (not self)
Cast instant
Purge all negative effects on target. Caster (you) are silenced and disarmed for 5 sec.
Recast cooldown 120 seconds.

I like this ideas, it's a bit of out-of-the-box-thinking, not on the same line as the call for celerity on paly. The heal effectiveness chant sounds good to me the way it is proposed.
Purge other should in my opinion have a longer CD, a shorter range, and be placed on other chars in a bad spot group-wise, maybe on thane and champ, not shaman and warden. As Schaf stated in the opening post, the changes should balance 8vs8, and 8mans usually run a warden, and shaman doesn't need a buff, whilst thane really could use some love (no, I don't play Thane xD).
Sat 26 Dec 2020 2:36 PM by opossum12
It would be interesting tonsee if bolster could be an ability that would fit in the phoenix landscape.

For those not familiar with it, it is an ability that heavy tanks get for free on Live. It is a short range (300) pbae group purge. The user cannot be mezzed or stunned tonuse it, and it doesn't clear the user's cc (so if you are rooted, it deroots your group but not you.

Here, it could be given for free to hybrids (paladin, thane, champ, and/or not reaver) or it could be a purchasable RA like purge (higher levels influence the rut on the ability

Considering that the hybrids are non stoic tanks, it could be interesting aa the cc doesn't fade immediately (compared to stoic tanks).

Having the ability to clear cc would make champs and paladins staples in groups.

As for the thane, maming a cold/energycaster train viable would make the Thane a staple in mid groups.

Edit :

To continue on that thought, reducing the level RMs get the cold debuff in RC so that they can grab pbt in supp would be a first step. So you comp could be RM / SM / Thane. Boosting the delve on the Thane energy dd to compensate the fact that he doesn't benefit from brain buff.

So you could do a rm/sm/thane caster train, I'm unsure how the double debuff would work here.

Since the debuff delve nerf, it woukd probably be smart to increase the debuff duration by 2x to allow double debuffing setups.
Sat 26 Dec 2020 3:26 PM by Tyrlaan
Ele wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:40 AM
I like this ideas, it's a bit of out-of-the-box-thinking, not on the same line as the call for celerity on paly. The heal effectiveness chant sounds good to me the way it is proposed.
Purge other should in my opinion have a longer CD, a shorter range, and be placed on other chars in a bad spot group-wise, maybe on thane and champ, not shaman and warden. As Schaf stated in the opening post, the changes should balance 8vs8, and 8mans usually run a warden, and shaman doesn't need a buff, whilst thane really could use some love (no, I don't play Thane xD).

Actually this whole idea is coming from a wrong angle. You don´t need to buff certain classes so that a certain 8v8 comp you envision has certain abilities.

Add abilities to classes that underperform. It can even be abilities which no other realm has yet (which makes this game less Team Red/Green/Blue). It gotta fit the class too (i.e. if an ability was introduced which cures negative effects it would belong on some kind of cure class/hybrid - the instant PBAE Cure Disease/Cure Poison/Cure All Mythic introduced on Paladins to counter the likewise realm-unique Shaman fart is such an ability). The players can do the rest, work with what´s given. Some will get a Necro to debuff AF, others will work with Reaver debuffs, others add another pure DPS. It´s not bad to have to pick between classes for your 8man, with choices coming with up and downsides.

The PvP event with its allstars teams has shown which classes were the best picks for their archetype - and which were lacking, e.g. why pick a Cleric when you can have a Druid. Why pick a Skald when you can have a Bard or Minstrel. Why pick a Mid caster when you can run a Cabby, Sorc or Eld. The answer often is only: they´re the only choice in their realm for something that´s needed. Even if they don´t wanna nerf anybody, it should give a general idea of which classes to give buffs to - and which don´t need buffs at all. They could also work on the weaknesses, e.g. Alb and Hib getting half of their resists on 1.5x classes while Mid struggles to get high resist buffs - vs. the caster realms no less.

The reason why Hib tankers are so strong (even without Celerity) is the compact 4 Natties core with PBT which foils peels. Now of course you could include PBT classes in the other realms and some do, but instead of building this game around must-have or wanna-have abilities and classes, thus reducing group variety, you could give stuff to other classes. To achieve that for melees you either gotta nerf melee snares (which are way too ubiquitous) or introduce ways to ignore (Charge) or cure them (like as an ability on a heal class).
Sat 26 Dec 2020 5:25 PM by Wakefield
Are these changes to improve the 8 man play style?

To me, majority of active players on Alb and Hib just want to join a bg and raid keeps.

The rps for doors rp nerf didnt do anything to change that.

Adding changes in the hope people dezerg will not change that.

Your still gonna have the zergs as it's easier for the play style that exists here.
Sat 26 Dec 2020 7:28 PM by Beeblebrox
Wakefield wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 5:25 PM
Are these changes to improve the 8 man play style?

To me, majority of active players on Alb and Hib just want to join a bg and raid keeps.

The rps for doors rp nerf didnt do anything to change that.

Adding changes in the hope people dezerg will not change that.

Your still gonna have the zergs as it's easier for the play style that exists here.

I don't really know why it's desirable to improve 8 man alb tank groups. It appears to be so peep will play tank 8 man rather than caster 8 man. I doubt the reason has anything to do with "dezerging". I am not opposed to the improvement.
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:44 PM by Noashakra
I love how people say hib tank is so strong, but there is maybe like 1 group EU time playing it.
Sun 27 Dec 2020 12:15 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:44 PM
I love how people say hib tank is so strong, but there is maybe like 1 group EU time playing it.

This is always your argument.

Hib EU time is nothing but zerging, the 8man groups that run in Hib run in NA time, and the only non-tanker that ever runs is <Jorm>, the rest are either 4x4 or 5x3 tank groups.
Sun 27 Dec 2020 4:50 AM by Alle
I appreciate all of the thoughts just please don’t make me continue to have to run auto hotkey in order to play pally correctly.
Sun 27 Dec 2020 9:59 AM by Simon73
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 12:15 AM
This is always your argument.

Hib EU time is nothing but zerging, the 8man groups that run in Hib run in NA time, and the only non-tanker that ever runs is <Jorm>, the rest are either 4x4 or 5x3 tank groups.

This is always your argument.

Why do hibs need to run with so many dps? Because they're allready nerfed.
My 7L bm does half dmg of a svg, zerk and merc at 3L
Hero is useless compared to a warrior or arms, dmg is so bad.
VW is slow as shit, and to do dmg he needs to do a 3 styles combo (that hardly hits)
Champ allready nerfed.

But yes, let's nerf hibs because according to you there are people in NA time (so probably 10% of total users) that go around killing everything... LOOOOOOL
During day it's hard to do 8man because there are so many zergs around.
Nerfing furthermore hib tanks will just oblige us to quit and play zerg or reroll easy mode on other realms.
Sun 27 Dec 2020 10:58 AM by Krakkon
Dear GMs,
Be careful adding abilities and spells to classes. It s really dangerous and it can easily destroy the game. The lack of some abilities in a 8man could be the strength of another one and the intelligence of players who understand it could make the difference.
For zerg playstyle changes aren t important. Players can t pretend to have all spells and ability on a 8man or small.

IMHO great changes are not needed, just some bilancing of original settings and introduction of real charge for light tank.
Sun 27 Dec 2020 11:38 AM by Noashakra
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 12:15 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:44 PM
I love how people say hib tank is so strong, but there is maybe like 1 group EU time playing it.

This is always your argument.

Hib EU time is nothing but zerging, the 8man groups that run in Hib run in NA time, and the only non-tanker that ever runs is <Jorm>, the rest are either 4x4 or 5x3 tank groups.

Each time you spoke about hib tanker and gave me examples, none of them were active players.
Also, in the mean time, mid has a few of tank groups running EU prime with success... I don't see the hib, if it was so powerful, you would have plenty.
Sun 27 Dec 2020 4:47 PM by opossum12
Krakkon wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 10:58 AM
IMHO great changes are not needed, just some bilancing of original settings and introduction of real charge for light tank.

Wow, that quote made my day. Don't make big changes, aside from adding a game changing ability to light tanks.
Sun 27 Dec 2020 4:48 PM by opossum12
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 11:38 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 12:15 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:44 PM
I love how people say hib tank is so strong, but there is maybe like 1 group EU time playing it.

This is always your argument.

Hib EU time is nothing but zerging, the 8man groups that run in Hib run in NA time, and the only non-tanker that ever runs is <Jorm>, the rest are either 4x4 or 5x3 tank groups.

Each time you spoke about hib tanker and gave me examples, none of them were active players.
Also, in the mean time, mid has a few of tank groups running EU prime with success... I don't see the hib, if it was so powerful, you would have plenty.

100% of hib groups doing gvg US prime are tankers. There just aren't a lot of hib groups doing gvg (1-2) each night so the sample size is limited.
Mon 28 Dec 2020 5:03 AM by soremir
Blitze wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 7:27 PM
In its current form the Friar HoT is near useless and I don’t even put it on my hotbar, I don’t know if high rejuv Friars find some niches for it... I doubt it.

solution:
1. Increase healing, Half power cost, reduce cast time
2. Uninteruptable or even Instant with a recast.

However, instant would boost solo friars way too much. And uniteruptable would still improve Solo friar to a lesser extent.

Therefore, moderately improve the healing power/efficiency AND importantly make it castable when moving (which helps transient Friars switching from melee to heal & pre-kiting). From there re look at it in a few months to see if it’s actually helpful.


(Giving friars bard spec grp heal and grp end redux are no brainers... However, the lvl 18, 27s snare would have to be lowered (switch durations with lvl34 backs are) So Hibs don’t feel so trod on)

And plz fix paladins separately.

This is a great solution. I barely ever use the HoT either. These fixes are worth a shot. Friar does also just need a groupheal that is not laughably trash.

Also, it might be worth thinking about just giving friars more spec points? The points required to play a group healer leads most of the points to be in rejuv/enh, and so the friar is forced into the role of being just a worse cleric. Maybe not, but maybe worth thinking about.
Mon 28 Dec 2020 11:36 AM by gromet12
soremir wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 5:03 AM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 7:27 PM
In its current form the Friar HoT is near useless and I don’t even put it on my hotbar, I don’t know if high rejuv Friars find some niches for it... I doubt it.

solution:
1. Increase healing, Half power cost, reduce cast time
2. Uninteruptable or even Instant with a recast.

However, instant would boost solo friars way too much. And uniteruptable would still improve Solo friar to a lesser extent.

Therefore, moderately improve the healing power/efficiency AND importantly make it castable when moving (which helps transient Friars switching from melee to heal & pre-kiting). From there re look at it in a few months to see if it’s actually helpful.


(Giving friars bard spec grp heal and grp end redux are no brainers... However, the lvl 18, 27s snare would have to be lowered (switch durations with lvl34 backs are) So Hibs don’t feel so trod on)

And plz fix paladins separately.

This is a great solution. I barely ever use the HoT either. These fixes are worth a shot. Friar does also just need a groupheal that is not laughably trash.

Also, it might be worth thinking about just giving friars more spec points? The points required to play a group healer leads most of the points to be in rejuv/enh, and so the friar is forced into the role of being just a worse cleric. Maybe not, but maybe worth thinking about.

So....The group HOT is barely used, the friar needs a group spec heal but just give Friars 1.8 spec points so they can spend the points on what?
Mon 28 Dec 2020 2:19 PM by Beeblebrox
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 11:36 AM
So....The group HOT is barely used, the friar needs a group spec heal but just give Friars 1.8 spec points so they can spend the points on what?

Staff and parry. There isn't anything else they can spend it on.
Mon 28 Dec 2020 2:31 PM by Beeblebrox
soremir wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 5:03 AM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 7:27 PM
In its current form the Friar HoT is near useless and I don’t even put it on my hotbar, I don’t know if high rejuv Friars find some niches for it... I doubt it.

solution:
1. Increase healing, Half power cost, reduce cast time
2. Uninteruptable or even Instant with a recast.

However, instant would boost solo friars way too much. And uniteruptable would still improve Solo friar to a lesser extent.

Therefore, moderately improve the healing power/efficiency AND importantly make it castable when moving (which helps transient Friars switching from melee to heal & pre-kiting). From there re look at it in a few months to see if it’s actually helpful.


(Giving friars bard spec grp heal and grp end redux are no brainers... However, the lvl 18, 27s snare would have to be lowered (switch durations with lvl34 backs are) So Hibs don’t feel so trod on)

And plz fix paladins separately.

This is a great solution. I barely ever use the HoT either. These fixes are worth a shot. Friar does also just need a groupheal that is not laughably trash.

Also, it might be worth thinking about just giving friars more spec points? The points required to play a group healer leads most of the points to be in rejuv/enh, and so the friar is forced into the role of being just a worse cleric. Maybe not, but maybe worth thinking about.

I use the HOT a lot. It is a lot better than the group heal that friars have after two ticks although costs too much manna. I would rather see abilities friars already have improved rather than adding something new. I would suggest some improvement to HOT. If making it uninterruptible is too imbalancing in solo setting, it can still work with some minor modifications like making it interruptible in that setting. More healing per tick if it isn't strong enough and costing less manna could also be considered.
Mon 28 Dec 2020 3:02 PM by gromet12
Beeblebrox wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 2:19 PM
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 11:36 AM
So....The group HOT is barely used, the friar needs a group spec heal but just give Friars 1.8 spec points so they can spend the points on what?

Staff and parry. There isn't anything else they can spend it on.

So you want to get the rear snare while also having top tier resist, more defense, and 600+ heals

Friars don't need extra spec points here UNLESS they add the healing needed into the staff line as Live did, and then it was only 34 that Friars needed, and they should've been required to give up something but oh well, that was the point I stopped playing friars

Friars lack any good group heal, that is one of the issues. Using the HOT takes too much power and basically matches the baseline in pwr-to-health which is subpar.

Live changed the amount healed to 40/50/60 and reduced the pwr down to match the value of the heal. Even the lvl 44 spell on live cost less than the lvl 24 spell here. That should tell you how out of whack that spell is for pwr-to-health. The casting time was also reduced to 3secs, eventually friars also received group spec heals.

Heal proc moved to 25% as in live
Group HOT moved to match live version values
Haste CON based added to enhance to match live
Lvl 34 Style changed from rear snare to group HOT frontal position or use that style point for what I feel they need vs other 2ndry healers (a get some breathing room ability, shamans have insta pbaoe disease, bards have insta cc, friars have....Side/Evade snares (not the same)). Dont make every style in the line have heals or any of that stuff, change the rear snare to something that is a get some room or still heals while in melee. This means Friars must make choices in spec, and in order to get the 34style they are not running the highest enhance (give up some resist), high rejuvy, etc etc. The balanced spec would be the ideal setup which makes sense on a hybrid

The friar would be the ideal 2ndry healer in a tank setup providing an increase in passive healing
Mon 28 Dec 2020 3:49 PM by soremir
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 3:02 PM
Beeblebrox wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 2:19 PM
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 11:36 AM
So....The group HOT is barely used, the friar needs a group spec heal but just give Friars 1.8 spec points so they can spend the points on what?

Staff and parry. There isn't anything else they can spend it on.

So you want to get the rear snare while also having top tier resist, more defense, and 600+ heals

Friars don't need extra spec points here UNLESS they add the healing needed into the staff line as Live did, and then it was only 34 that Friars needed, and they should've been required to give up something but oh well, that was the point I stopped playing friars

Friars lack any good group heal, that is one of the issues. Using the HOT takes too much power and basically matches the baseline in pwr-to-health which is subpar.

Live changed the amount healed to 40/50/60 and reduced the pwr down to match the value of the heal. Even the lvl 44 spell on live cost less than the lvl 24 spell here. That should tell you how out of whack that spell is for pwr-to-health. The casting time was also reduced to 3secs, eventually friars also received group spec heals.

Heal proc moved to 25% as in live
Group HOT moved to match live version values
Haste CON based added to enhance to match live
Lvl 34 Style changed from rear snare to group HOT frontal position or use that style point for what I feel they need vs other 2ndry healers (a get some breathing room ability, shamans have insta pbaoe disease, bards have insta cc, friars have....Side/Evade snares (not the same)). Dont make every style in the line have heals or any of that stuff, change the rear snare to something that is a get some room or still heals while in melee. This means Friars must make choices in spec, and in order to get the 34style they are not running the highest enhance (give up some resist), high rejuvy, etc etc. The balanced spec would be the ideal setup which makes sense on a hybrid

The friar would be the ideal 2ndry healer in a tank setup providing an increase in passive healing

This is also great. My vote is here now. The only thing is that I would reiterate, if you want heal friars to get that 34 staff to use the heal-style, then friars need to spec points to be able to get there. Also, the back-snare would need to be moved somewhere else in the staff spec line. you could drop the 39 style probably or even 44 style, as nobody cares about the stun at the end of the 3-style chain.
Mon 28 Dec 2020 4:43 PM by Centenario
Big issue with friar would still be after those changes recently mentioned, that they have no interrupt from range and cc from range.
Reducing taunt to 15sec cd and giving a range dd and or range cc would be good.
Mon 28 Dec 2020 5:37 PM by evert
Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 4:43 PM
Big issue with friar would still be after those changes recently mentioned, that they have no interrupt from range and cc from range.
Reducing taunt to 15sec cd and giving a range dd and or range cc would be good.

Hmmm no pet either, and no stealth and no bolts. Devs should remedy this ASAP.
Mon 28 Dec 2020 7:00 PM by Cruella
Before you throw more candy to the friar you should better help out paladins which are in a far weaker spot. Just my 2 c
Mon 28 Dec 2020 8:28 PM by Kaj
just add toa patch 1.9 dont change much leave it as it is and everyone would be happy, i mean its already full of custom changes, why you just dont add toa abilities?
Mon 28 Dec 2020 9:03 PM by Arla
Kaj wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 8:28 PM
just add toa patch 1.9 dont change much leave it as it is and everyone would be happy, i mean its already full of custom changes, why you just dont add toa abilities?
This makes more sense to me. The changes that they made were good with the exception of ML abilities.
Mon 28 Dec 2020 10:31 PM by Blitze
There are 3 Friars
Battlefriar
Hybrid
Rejuv

The lvl 34 backsnare is great... for battle and hybrid.
And I don’t think changing it is helpful as it’s the right amount of spec points for a hybrid Friar... ie one that can join an assist train as well as heal...

Fixing friars HoT(&/or adding a grp specc heal) enables Rejuv friars to fill that Cleric spot easier, please don’t fix Rejuv Friars at the expense of battle/hybrids by messing with 34 backsnare.

Hybrid/battle friars would be helped by the grp end redux as they may be chosen in tanker grps as an assist/peel slot. (Obvs tanker grps May just take a heal Friar instead of a cleric to get the end redux)
Mon 28 Dec 2020 10:47 PM by Pigleto
You know paladins could have an increase to their heal chant. They could be granted stoicism. They could be given a 15% celerity tagged to their damage add. And this would solve your problem. Don't give Paladins speed 5. It isn't part of their class. As far as friars go, give them a concentrated haste buff and give them a spread heal and that would be enough.
Tue 29 Dec 2020 3:35 PM by Reklewt
I agree that Alb tanker could use some buffs, however, I really think giving Paladin Speed 5 chant is game design-breaking. Live did the same type of thing where they gave other classes Speed 5 and the speed classes lost their novelty. I like some of these ideas posed in the forum, like a celerity chant, etc, to make the paladin a bit more viable. Another thing is that we all have instant endo pots that fill us to 100, plus you have usable items that do the same, so while it's not amazing it's not the end of the world in a fight imo, and I play a lot of tanks.
Tue 29 Dec 2020 9:33 PM by Centenario
I saw on another forum thread (about new classes) grunesc say:
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Oct 2020 3:39 PM
While valks would mostly fit and banshees to a lesser extent, there is no desire whatsoever to add more classes. The still pretty much guaranteed to not happen yet more likely course of action would be the merging / removal of certain existing classes instead.

I never played heretic, valk, etc... would be nice if we could check there for some abilities that could suit friar/paladin.

Also I think we could merge theurg and minst somehow, or theurg and friar, maybe also merge sorc and minst. I could see cleric merged with reaver too or paladin and reaver. Lots of potential to study.
Tue 29 Dec 2020 10:45 PM by easytoremember
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Dec 2020 9:33 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Oct 2020 3:39 PM
While valks would mostly fit and banshees to a lesser extent, there is no desire whatsoever to add more classes. The still pretty much guaranteed to not happen yet more likely course of action would be the merging / removal of certain existing classes instead.

I never played heretic, valk, etc... would be nice if we could check there for some abilities that could suit friar/paladin.
Heretic was a cloth-wearing bulkier-than-paladin focus-focus caster with Reaver styles and slam,
Valkyrie had Thane instas with a 2-style chain pbaoe dd and pbaoe instant heals
Both had the base healing lines from their realms

Paladin running around with monster rez could be fun ^^
Wed 30 Dec 2020 12:51 AM by Tacos
It would be great if paladins were able to put the auto trained slash points into other weapon lines. Feels too pigeonholed into running slash weapons. Also, some two hand thrust skins would be awesome!

Having played a pretty decently ranked paladin here and on other servers, the suggestions I find appealing are:
1) Stoic
2) Dashing DD
3) Spirt DD on Sun and Moon. All the stuns seems a bit redundant.
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