A challenge to those asking for assassin nerfs

Hi everyone,

I see many people asking for assassin nerfs in various threads on this forum. After having played an assassin to almost rr11 (23k to go or so) I feel I have a strong grasp on the strengths and weaknesses of the archetype.

This is an open ended challenge to anyone calling for the nerfs of assassins. I am accepting challenges to 1v1 any of my visible characters who will be respeced to solo RA’s to hopefully come to a conclusion on whether or not assassins are indeed overpowered. I don’t believe my visible characters will win every single fight, but I don’t believe it will be a wash in favour of the assassin I fight. All fights will be recorded and posted up here win or loss.

Depending on the realm i am playing these are the current templated characters I have:

Skald
Mercenary
Hero
Soon to be templated warrior
I may level and template a reaver/champion for this experiment depending on the interest

I feel like these are the visible classes people typically run solo on so it should give a general idea on the balance issues if any are present.

Feel free to DM me on the forum or send me a message on discord @status#4684 to set up fights. I mostly play NA, but I can log EU most days.

Again, all fights will be recorded and posted in the video section if anyone would like to partake in this experiment.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 8:58 PM by Kevan89

Waiting with interest any content regarding the Skald, I kind of suck vs Sins with it and would like to see some gameplay.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 9:25 PM by keen

Need to make the skald blow all actives and the assassin attacks him with all up to make it realistic. Don't skew reality.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:00 PM by protege

keen wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 9:25 PM
Need to make the skald blow all actives and the assassin attacks him with all up to make it realistic. Don't skew reality.

How would a skald with RA’s up skew reality?

That would be akin to me asking the assassin to not purge or spec viper for the 1v1

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:21 PM by keen

protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:00 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 9:25 PM
Need to make the skald blow all actives and the assassin attacks him with all up to make it realistic. Don't skew reality.

How would a skald with RA’s up skew reality?

That would be akin to me asking the assassin to not purge or spec viper for the 1v1

Because having stealth and deciding when to fight is the key ability of assassins? They will just wait till you blew your most important Ra's somewhere and only attack you if they have enough up (which is purge only on assassins, viper is passive as you know), then showing off with their solo kill stats. Welcome to daoc solo game play. Tough to face reality.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:27 PM by protege

So I’m trying to understand your “daoc world view” here... you believe assassins should be free kills to tanks / hybrids that have no active RAs up?

Nice.

Also, this thread is to get an idea of whether or not assassins are overpowered, not to test someone’s patience on waiting on a tank to blow RA’s before attacking. If the tank is smart, they wouldn’t stay in the same location if all of their key RA’s are down.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:33 PM by keen

protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:27 PM
So I’m trying to understand your “daoc world view” here... you believe assassins should be free kills to tanks / hybrids that have no active RAs up?

Nice.

Yes they should have a very hard time Vs all classes but stealthers. They can fight each other day and night, they don't need free rps from visibles running solo to the dock and getting 2 shot. If they attack any visible it should be really hard for them to win. And not an almost auto win Vs 90% of what they actually attack.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:42 PM by Astaa

I'll fight you 1v1 any time, I have no particular complaints, except disease time! would just be nice to get the fight!

Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:44 PM by Nheryn

protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:27 PM
If the tank is smart, they wouldn’t stay in the same location if all of their key RA’s are down.

Oups... I will go learn this xD
<3

Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:09 PM by protege

keen wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:33 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:27 PM
So I’m trying to understand your “daoc world view” here... you believe assassins should be free kills to tanks / hybrids that have no active RAs up?

Nice.
Yes they should have a very hard time Vs all classes but stealthers. They can fight each other day and night, they don't need free rps from visibles running solo to the dock and getting 2 shot. If they attack any visible it should be really hard for them to win. And not an almost auto win Vs 90% of what they actually attack.

Very objective of you there.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:09 PM by protege

Nheryn wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:44 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:27 PM
If the tank is smart, they wouldn’t stay in the same location if all of their key RA’s are down.

Oups... I will go learn this xD
<3

😂😂

Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:12 PM by inchaii

I'm happy to participate in this experiment for the sake of proving a point. I'm in the same boat having played a SB up to RR11. I'm retiring the SB and trying out many new classes I've never played before now.

Assassins are not overpowered by any means and do struggle against certain classes disregarding realm rank. As far as dueling goes, the assassin will probably get mopped up against most hybrid/tank classes as well as some particular clothies as the element of surprise is missing.

Do I think I'll win against any of those classes? Most likely not. Should assassins be targeting any class outside of other stealthers/clothies in an rvr setting? Probably not, unless like someone said above, that you know you're at an advantage and they're not at full capability.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:12 PM by protege

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 10:42 PM
I'll fight you 1v1 any time, I have no particular complaints, except disease time! would just be nice to get the fight!

I always welcome fights — shoot me a message anytime and we can set something up.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:24 PM by spyderz33

As a RR11 Infi and rr8 SB, I hate fighting against Mercs, Necros, Warriors, Bonedancers, Blademasters, Champs, Heros, Armsmans, Paladins, Spiritmasters, Zerkers, any Caster that MOC Dumps you that has a lifetap. That pretty much sums it up... All classes have their perks, we just get to decide when to attack. Id rather just fight stealthers over and over again but those darn small man and 8 mans always like their 5-10rp I guess. Stealthers have their disadvantages too, at least the solo ones

Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:24 PM by protege

Not to spam my own thread, but cloth wearers can most certainly farm stealthers if played correctly. Take a page from Xpovoc’s book.

Theurg with conc should win 99% of the time
Eldritch should win as well
Sorc ? Yeah
Cabalists can kill stealthers
SMs...

The list goes on

Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:25 PM by gotwqqd

inchaii wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:12 PM
I'm happy to participate in this experiment for the sake of proving a point. I'm in the same boat having played a SB up to RR11. I'm retiring the SB and trying out many new classes I've never played before now.

Assassins are not overpowered by any means and do struggle against certain classes disregarding realm rank. As far as dueling goes, the assassin will probably get mopped up against most hybrid/tank classes as well as some particular clothies as the element of surprise is missing.

Do I think I'll win against any of those classes? Most likely not. Should assassins be targeting any class outside of other stealthers/clothies in an rvr setting? Probably not, unless like someone said above, that you know you're at an advantage and they're not at full capability.

I think the test needs to start with PA

Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:26 PM by protege

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:25 PM
inchaii wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:12 PM
I'm happy to participate in this experiment for the sake of proving a point. I'm in the same boat having played a SB up to RR11. I'm retiring the SB and trying out many new classes I've never played before now.

Assassins are not overpowered by any means and do struggle against certain classes disregarding realm rank. As far as dueling goes, the assassin will probably get mopped up against most hybrid/tank classes as well as some particular clothies as the element of surprise is missing.

Do I think I'll win against any of those classes? Most likely not. Should assassins be targeting any class outside of other stealthers/clothies in an rvr setting? Probably not, unless like someone said above, that you know you're at an advantage and they're not at full capability.
I think the test needs to start with PA

I will welcome PA on my classes. Sure

Edit: just wanted to point something out that I find interesting. So far we have had two people in this thread point out “ideal situations” that assassins have to encounter to be competitive. RA’s on their target down, and the assassin must get perf off.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 12:57 AM by Taniquetil

Keen, lets strike a deal. I’ll get a tank to RR5, you get a sin to RR5, we can fight some 10-20 fights?, if you win more than 10-20% of the fights as the sin, you will have changed my opinion and I’ll agree that sins need a nerf. Note thats you winning 4 out of 20 fights, realistically I’d have suggested 50% as a real number, and if you really think sins are OP I think you should be a man and bet that you’ll win 50% of them. But in the interest of extending an olive branch to you I’ll do 10-20%. I’ll even lend you a fully capped assassin template to do so (note agreeing to this and then stealing/selling/deleting the template is officially rule breaking and bannable read 9.3, so pretty happy to do this.)

I suggest 2 ways of doing this, your preference. Both of these methods id happily accept if I was on my asassin.

1. Duel Arena
We continually duel, sequentially, no breaks, cone back and fight as quickly as possible each time.?timers land as they fall, neither side waits for timers and it comes down to management of timers.

2. Fight scenario Simulation:
Assassin can always have the opener, but there are two conditions, both ‘inevitable scenarios’ are ruled out.
a) Assassin never needs to attack without purge up. I think its quite boring to watch an assassin sit through a slam and then type /release. This allows you to ‘pick’ your fight, because sitting through slam to die is probably not that fun of a simulation.
b) CD stun for the assassin is also ruled out unless an active RA is up for the tank (eg purge or IP for example) as realistically sitting through a full stun with nothing up is an uphill battle for almost everyone, as it should be, kinda the unique point of the class.

Beyond that:
Realistically the only reason I don’t really play a solo visi class on this server is because of how toxic the server is towards any type of soloing, have had RR11 solo visis before on other servers and had a lot of fun with it, but whilst everything here is added or zerged to oblivion and solos have no counter to it I’ll stick to the class with the better ability to avoid it. Mad respect to those who do it relentlessly as visis, youre all mental, dont know how you dont mind getting brainlessly zerged or having armies of coastguards mow you down continually, but yeah....

Also happy to participate in general beyond this, only got a minst templated currently, but the minstrel is pretty unfair/OP 1v1

Tue 8 Dec 2020 12:58 AM by gotwqqd

protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:26 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:25 PM
inchaii wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:12 PM
I'm happy to participate in this experiment for the sake of proving a point. I'm in the same boat having played a SB up to RR11. I'm retiring the SB and trying out many new classes I've never played before now.

Assassins are not overpowered by any means and do struggle against certain classes disregarding realm rank. As far as dueling goes, the assassin will probably get mopped up against most hybrid/tank classes as well as some particular clothies as the element of surprise is missing.

Do I think I'll win against any of those classes? Most likely not. Should assassins be targeting any class outside of other stealthers/clothies in an rvr setting? Probably not, unless like someone said above, that you know you're at an advantage and they're not at full capability.
I think the test needs to start with PA

I will welcome PA on my classes. Sure

Edit: just wanted to point something out that I find interesting. So far we have had two people in this thread point out “ideal situations” that assassins have to encounter to be competitive. RA’s on their target down, and the assassin must get perf off.

All I’m saying is a duel with an assassin doesn’t start with a bow.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 7:59 AM by Noashakra

Keen is already finding excuses, smart guy.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 8:28 AM by DarkDavion

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 12:57 AM
2. Fight scenario Simulation:
Assassin can always have the opener, but there are two conditions, both ‘inevitable scenarios’ are ruled out.
a) Assassin never needs to attack without purge up. I think its quite boring to watch an assassin sit through a slam and then type /release. This allows you to ‘pick’ your fight, because sitting through slam to die is probably not that fun of a simulation.
b) CD stun for the assassin is also ruled out unless an active RA is up for the tank (eg purge or IP for example) as realistically sitting through a full stun with nothing up is an uphill battle for almost everyone, as it should be, kinda the unique point of the class.

Also happy to participate in general beyond this, only got a minst templated currently, but the minstrel is pretty unfair/OP 1v1

Hey bud, so at the end you agree with me that if both assassin and the solo visible have all RA's down the assassin got a big advantage since the PA opening and easy land CD (bcs with all the debuff on is by far more easy land CD than land slam that will miss a lot).
And obviously the mincer is fucking op 1vs1 we are on the same page about this

Tue 8 Dec 2020 9:08 AM by Jingo NZ

I think people are missing keen's point, which is the assassin ability to pick fights and avoid visi groups. The ability to duel someone is secondary to those when is comes to the solo kit. And then there's vanish...

Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:02 AM by Taniquetil

DarkDavion wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 8:28 AM
Hey bud, so at the end you agree with me that if both assassin and the solo visible have all RA's down the assassin got a big advantage since the PA opening and easy land CD (bcs with all the debuff on is by far more easy land CD than land slam that will miss a lot).
And obviously the mincer is fucking op 1vs1 we are on the same page about this

If you’re heavily specced in active RAs, and all are down, and the sin has purge up and lands PA/CD, yes you’re in trouble, but realistically thats a very uncommon scenario, and one which if youre managing use of timers (which i’m happy to demonstrate in the duel arena setup) you should very rarely be left in that situation. When heavily specced in actives and the actives are down its essentially as if you are a RR1 all over again.

But I think the desire to beat someone who is fully solo specced without having any spec in passive RAs or solo RAs and having all timers down, and being on the receiving end of a perfect inc from them is a scenario in which the tank still has an advantage is pretty unrealistic, and would be very boring very quickly, that to me reads as not wanting any challenge whatsoever. If thats what you want then yes I merrily disagree as there is a desire to have a no win scenario for the sin under any circumstance. All that would happen is assassins would either all resort to ganking people or they’d never get attacked, which would mean less fun for everyone, the word balance by definition means “ a situation in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions” I see that as the tank having the upper hand but the sin having tools to find some scenarios in which it can win.

Jingo NZ wrote: I think people are missing keen's point, which is the assassin ability to pick fights and avoid visi groups. The ability to duel someone is secondary to those when is comes to the solo kit. And then there's vanish...

Thats not what he’s saying. He’s complaining about power, not about the stealth ability itself. If groups/zergs didnt gank solos i’d merrily play a visi, but until you can change the behaviour of an entire server i’ll carry on playing a sin.

Someone very smart recently said to me: ”as vis solo you only can play on the sidetimes, and even that is hell most of the time. thats the reason for the unbalanced amount of sneaks... that leads to the unbalanced amount of dead people murderd by sins... that leads to the sneaks are inbalanced thoughts... circle of phoenix.... there is no need for a nerf. you cannot patch the behaviour of players...”

Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:16 AM by keen

Why should a stealth class has the upper hand Vs most classes and not vice versa? If you attack a visible this should be with high risk of losing and not the opposite + bail out with vanish.
I don't see how this is good game design in a MMORPG to make stealth classes also farm visible classes. a stealther that does not participate in visible rvr.
If you choose to be stealther this should come at the cost that you can mainly fight other stealther and that's it.
With current game design it is beneficial to be a stealther with no downside, while visible rvr should be prompted.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:35 AM by Taniquetil

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:16 AM
Why should a stealth class has the upper hand Vs most classes and not vice versa?

Since we both have very opposite opinions here I’ve offered you a series of Duels to prove that this is not the case and that the visi does have the upper hand Excluding a single scenario in which the assassin gets a perfect inc and the visi has no active RAs up let me know if you want to accept. If you believe you’ll beat me as an assassin more than I beat you as a tank (I initially said 10-20, but hey you think you have the upper hand, so lets say 50% of the time) then you will have changed my opinion, I will graciously concede that I was wrong, and agree with your POV.

If you run in a straight line over very busy areas known to have assassins present and act surprised when you get PA’d that’s no one’s fault but your own. There’s a reason that the good solos firmly face a wall on the bridge when they are stood still, And that is to avoid a PA, its simply smart gameplay that respects other classes traits and learns to counter them or nullify them. If you want an easy win in which there is little to no scenario in which an opponent can beat you, go find some green con pve mobs

Tue 8 Dec 2020 12:09 PM by DJ2000

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:02 AM
If you’re heavily specced in active RAs, and all are down, and the sin has purge up and lands PA/CD, yes you’re in trouble, but realistically thats a very uncommon scenario, ...

You are joking, right? That is the common experience for at least 90% of the Players that run to the Docks to get back to the Grp/Action/BG after a Fight they died in.

Are you actually asking for /Bowtown fights? Both legs planted to the ground duking it out till one falls? No DoT/disease/snare kiting or Vanish/re-Stealth and engage again?
Why do you think some Players that want to 1v1 rather wait for their active RA in Keeps instead of heading out again?

You want to fight 10+ times? Well good luck winning any fight after you blown your Purge, unless you wait for it to be back up again.
It's "Purge or Die" versus Assassins, but that counts for Assassins too, as a Stun is deadly for both (well, they do still have Vanish).

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:03 PM by Taniquetil

Honestly if you're QQing about eating a full PA chain without anything to combat it i dont know what to say to you, i guess we start a 'nerf slam' thread too, because I die to it when my purge isnt up. I'd imagine a similar success rate on that thread too. Realistically both sides eating a long stun without anything to combat it are at a disadvantage, so take those scenarios out of the equation and find out what balance is really like.

Its really simple, i've offered to help this debate by aiding to prove that the balance isnt how you see it, i've offered to play the tank. If you think that will help your case lets do it, otherwise we move on. Given very favourable terms to the assassin...drop me a message and we can sort it out.

Essentially the offer is there to help prove your argument, i'm giving you a chance to prove your right, take it or leave it.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:16 PM by DJ2000

Dont get petty and act like you were being insulted.

There are no complaints by anyone beside you yourself about not wanting "to eat" the PA-chain in a fight.
Did you read anything i wrote? The fact that Purge is a necessity to actually fight an Assassin is exactly what i wrote. Same goes for the Assassin if he ever gets endangered by a Stun.
I am reading everything you are writing as i am trying to have a discussion/debate with you.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:23 PM by protege

Jingo NZ wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 9:08 AM
I think people are missing keen's point, which is the assassin ability to pick fights and avoid visi groups. The ability to duel someone is secondary to those when is comes to the solo kit. And then there's vanish...

So when people are crying for assassin nerfs they're REAL GRIPE is with stealth and the ability to dodge visible groups and how they can choose to engage?

I'm getting lost now.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:25 PM by protege

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:16 AM
Why should a stealth class has the upper hand Vs most classes and not vice versa? If you attack a visible this should be with high risk of losing and not the opposite + bail out with vanish.
I don't see how this is good game design in a MMORPG to make stealth classes also farm visible classes. a stealther that does not participate in visible rvr.
If you choose to be stealther this should come at the cost that you can mainly fight other stealther and that's it.
With current game design it is beneficial to be a stealther with no downside, while visible rvr should be prompted.

Stealthers do not have the upper hand. The entire reason of my post is to show that they do not. I am playing the game how you see it -- you can perf any of my visible toons when we 1v1.

Not interested?

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:28 PM by protege

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 12:09 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:02 AM
If you’re heavily specced in active RAs, and all are down, and the sin has purge up and lands PA/CD, yes you’re in trouble, but realistically thats a very uncommon scenario, ...

You are joking, right? That is the common experience for at least 90% of the Players that run to the Docks to get back to the Grp/Action/BG after a Fight they died in.

Wait for timers then if it happens so often, or go to a less busy dock.

Are you actually asking for /Bowtown fights? Both legs planted to the ground duking it out till one falls? No DoT/disease/snare kiting or Vanish/re-Stealth and engage again?
Why do you think some Players that want to 1v1 rather wait for their active RA in Keeps instead of heading out again?

How often are you diseased/snared and kited around on your solo visible? Something tells me this is an anomaly.

You want to fight 10+ times? Well good luck winning any fight after you blown your Purge, unless you wait for it to be back up again.
It's "Purge or Die" versus Assassins, but that counts for Assassins too, as a Stun is deadly for both (well, they do still have Vanish).

Anyone can spec purge4 or 5. It is not unique to the assassin archetype.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:28 PM by Stoertebecker

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:16 AM
Why should a stealth class has the upper hand Vs most classes and not vice versa?

This question is as old as the game itself. Valid question, but only 1 question out of many if it comes to assassin class design, even today.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:30 PM by protege

UPDATE:

NOT ONE PERSON IS WILLING TO PARTICIPATE EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO KNOW ASSASSINS ARE NOT OVERPOWERED

Exo
Shalelu
Lhei
Reeses

Shalelu/Lhei both play solo heroines and they want to fight my SB for me to post it up to show how a typical fight goes vs a heavy tank. I outrank Lhei by 3 or 4 ranks as well and it is pointless to attack her.

Shalelu is even worse.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:39 PM by Noashakra

Keen is barely playing, and his higher toon on mid with solo kills is a BD with 80 solo kills (he has like 5 on the rest)... On hib he plays a ranger with 200 solo kills (made on xpers).
We can all dismiss is his opinion, he is not a soloer. He is just a whinner and he is butthurt because he plays a 2 macro class and a sin killed him.

Your opinion is meaningless
NEXT!

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:45 PM by keen

Your set up duels do not reflect reality so the test itself is skewed towards your desired outcome, which is called biased. Assassins are op cause they can pick a fight in opposite to visible ones. An assassin would never attack a slam tank without having vanish or purge.
I can just repeat that from a game design point it does not make sense to favour stealth classes over visibles in an open field MMORPG. It just separates the server.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:55 PM by Noashakra

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:45 PM
Your set up duels do not reflect reality so the test itself is skewed towards your desired outcome, which is called biased. Assassins are op cause they can pick a fight in opposite to visible ones. An assassin would never attack a slam tank without having vanish or purge.
I can just repeat that from a game design point it does not make sense to favour stealth classes over visibles in an open field MMORPG. It just separates the server.

Go back adding with your ranger on crau bridge and let the real talk to people who know what they are doing.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:58 PM by DJ2000

protege wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:28 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 12:09 PM
You are joking, right? That is the common experience for at least 90% of the Players that run to the Docks to get back to the Grp/Action/BG after a Fight they died in.

Wait for timers then if it happens so often, or go to a less busy dock.

Answer:

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 12:09 PM
Why do you think some Players that want to 1v1 rather wait for their active RA in Keeps instead of heading out again?

protege wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:28 PM
How often are you diseased/snared and kited around on your solo visible? Something tells me this is an anomaly.

Where was i implying that? Selective reading wont get you far.
But, if you may, be kind enough to tell us about your version of a "Fight, that would be sweet.
Purge? Wait for timers between fights? /Bowtown? Fight length? Arena/open field? PA-chain opener? etc.

protege wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:28 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 12:09 PM
You want to fight 10+ times? Well good luck winning any fight after you blown your Purge, unless you wait for it to be back up again.
It's "Purge or Die" versus Assassins, but that counts for Assassins too, as a Stun is deadly for both (well, they do still have Vanish).

Anyone can spec purge4 or 5. It is not unique to the assassin archetype.

I agree, said it in that very sentence you quoted.
In fact, i would suggest to all that want to Fight any class 1v1 to take purge4/5.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 3:08 PM by Taniquetil

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 1:45 PM
Your set up duels do not reflect reality so the test itself is skewed towards your desired outcome, which is called biased. Assassins are op cause they can pick a fight in opposite to visible ones. An assassin would never attack a slam tank without having vanish or purge.
I can just repeat that from a game design point it does not make sense to favour stealth classes over visibles in an open field MMORPG. It just separates the server.

In my challenges i said the assassin would always have purge. But hey, challenge is there, im willing to go on a tank and have you show how OP a sin is, if youre not up for it I cant help you.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 3:32 PM by goten9033

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:16 AM
Why should a stealth class has the upper hand Vs most classes and not vice versa? If you attack a visible this should be with high risk of losing and not the opposite + bail out with vanish.
I don't see how this is good game design in a MMORPG to make stealth classes also farm visible classes. a stealther that does not participate in visible rvr.
If you choose to be stealther this should come at the cost that you can mainly fight other stealther and that's it.
With current game design it is beneficial to be a stealther with no downside, while visible rvr should be prompted.

Stopped listening to anything that keen had to say at that point .

Tue 8 Dec 2020 3:58 PM by Noashakra

goten9033 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 3:32 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:16 AM
Why should a stealth class has the upper hand Vs most classes and not vice versa? If you attack a visible this should be with high risk of losing and not the opposite + bail out with vanish.
I don't see how this is good game design in a MMORPG to make stealth classes also farm visible classes. a stealther that does not participate in visible rvr.
If you choose to be stealther this should come at the cost that you can mainly fight other stealther and that's it.
With current game design it is beneficial to be a stealther with no downside, while visible rvr should be prompted.

Stopped listening to anything that keen had to say at that point .

It's ridiculous
With the same logic, I can say "If you want to solo with a class that is made to group, like tanks or mage, you should accept that a class made to kill players by themself is stronger than you"
Anyway, we all understood that this guy has no idea of what he speaks about.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:26 PM by Freudinio

There still people that don't believe this server is a stealthers paradise?

Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:28 PM by protege

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:26 PM
There still people that don't believe this server is a stealthers paradise?

For soloing? Yes.. Due to the culture and adding nature of the server.

Are they OP 1v1 as many on this forum suggest? Hell. No.

Any decent tank or hybrid should win 95% of the fights vs. an assassin if played/specced properly. I don't even use DT on my merc in 1v1s and I cannot remember the last time I lost to a solo stealther tbh.

Edit:

I want a straight answer from DJ/anyone else that believe assassins are overpowered... Is it strictly due to their ability to choose fights? I mean.. that is a rather ridiculous argument, no?

I am offering people who claim assassins are overpowered to show the phoenix staff that they are indeed imbalanced and I have 0 takers so far.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:32 PM by Sepplord

a server with almost noone running around solo on visibles doesn't sound like a stealther paradise at all... so i believe they were meaning something different than that

Tue 8 Dec 2020 5:01 PM by Taniquetil

protege wrote: I am offering people who claim assassins are overpowered to show the phoenix staff that they are indeed imbalanced and I have 0 takers so far.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 6:42 PM by Freudinio

protege wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:28 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:26 PM
There still people that don't believe this server is a stealthers paradise?

For soloing? Yes.. Due to the culture and adding nature of the server.

Are they OP 1v1 as many on this forum suggest? Hell. No.

Any decent tank or hybrid should win 95% of the fights vs. an assassin if played/specced properly. I don't even use DT on my merc in 1v1s and I cannot remember the last time I lost to a solo stealther tbh.

Edit:

I want a straight answer from DJ/anyone else that believe assassins are overpowered... Is it strictly due to their ability to choose fights? I mean.. that is a rather ridiculous argument, no?

I am offering people who claim assassins are overpowered to show the phoenix staff that they are indeed imbalanced and I have 0 takers so far.

I don't personally think they are op. But they are definitely strong. I mean, there must be a reason that there are so many stealthers on this server, despite that nobody apparently solos. And I'm pretty sure that reason isn't that they are hot garbage.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 7:00 PM by thirian24

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 6:42 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:28 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:26 PM
There still people that don't believe this server is a stealthers paradise?

For soloing? Yes.. Due to the culture and adding nature of the server.

Are they OP 1v1 as many on this forum suggest? Hell. No.

Any decent tank or hybrid should win 95% of the fights vs. an assassin if played/specced properly. I don't even use DT on my merc in 1v1s and I cannot remember the last time I lost to a solo stealther tbh.

Edit:

I want a straight answer from DJ/anyone else that believe assassins are overpowered... Is it strictly due to their ability to choose fights? I mean.. that is a rather ridiculous argument, no?

I am offering people who claim assassins are overpowered to show the phoenix staff that they are indeed imbalanced and I have 0 takers so far.

I don't personally think they are op. But they are definitely strong. I mean, there must be a reason that there are so many stealthers on this server, despite that nobody apparently solos. And I'm pretty sure that reason isn't that they are hot garbage.

As its already been stated many times, I'll still reiterate.. there are so many assassins on this server b/c soloing on a visi is pure trash. Outside of maybe a skald or minst, a stealther is the only viable option. Like mentioned already, you cant change the mindset of the entire player base to not zerg down soloers. So therefore you have a lot of assassins.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 7:49 PM by Stoertebecker

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:32 PM
a server with almost noone running around solo on visibles doesn't sound like a stealther paradise at all... so i believe they were meaning something different than that

You should play more on Phoenix, there are more than enough ppl running solo, the task system alone make it something like stealthers paradise.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 9:43 PM by DJ2000

protege wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:28 PM
I want a straight answer from DJ/anyone else that believe assassins are overpowered.

1. Neither me nor anyone else posting here has the competence (jurisdiction) to give a representative answer to that. Everyone, you included, is putting out his opinion at best.
2. I refer to my statement about this topic in the other Thread, as this topic is about something else. (spoiler alert: i denied it)
3. For someone to be able to 1v1 you, he has to own an Assassin obviously. 90% that are "up" in this Topic don't even have one , nor do they have experience playing one for la ong period of time, way beyond the Phoenix Lifespan of some months, to even relate to "power levels" on any other DaoC Server/Shard. Why else would they argue about this.
4. Up until today i considered Tani, Noash and yourself to be experienced and good enough players to give input on this matter, but you guys are actually having a terrible go at getting your points across in these Threads. Way to heated/Way to sweaty in most of your postings. And reading half a sentence and adding another half by yourself to fire yourself up is not helping either.
5. There are like 8-9 (?) People that go back and forth about this Topic in this and the other thread. You are way to up in arms for this little quarrel. You are making look yourself worse than you should.
6. Devs are pretty aware of what an Assassin can do and what they cant do. Adding /Switch command, and PA/Debuff change are proof of that.

My advice to you: Get back to the start and look where or what the dissonance is and try to clear it up, before raising your fists.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 9:52 PM by Gotmagi

I think overall assassins are in a pretty good spot, they are not op in a pure 1v1 setting but can hold their own vs most classes, especially since visi classes tend to rely more on active ra's. The strength of the assassins vs visi classes is being able to pick and choose their fights and avoid fgs and smallman grps, resulting in more solo kills and faster rp gain. There's a reason why the top 250 solo kill list is mostly assassins

In a pure 1v1 duel setting with equal rr and all ra's up.. a strong visi class like a champ should destroy an assassin, but if you take 5 fights in a row with the assassin having the element of surprise.. it would be more even I feel.

In conclusion: assassins don't deserve a nerf, a better solution would be to diversify the solo game by adding some incentive to roam outside of the bridge/dock area

Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:00 PM by protege

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 9:43 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:28 PM
I want a straight answer from DJ/anyone else that believe assassins are overpowered.
1. Neither me nor anyone else posting here has the competence (jurisdiction) to give a representative answer to that. Everyone, you included, is putting out his opinion at best.
2. I refer to my statement about this topic in the other Thread, as this topic is about something else. (spoiler alert: i denied it)
3. For someone to be able to 1v1 you, he has to own an Assassin obviously. 90% that are "up" in this Topic don't even have one , nor do they have experience playing one for la ong period of time, way beyond the Phoenix Lifespan of some months, to even relate to "power levels" on any other DaoC Server/Shard. Why else would they argue about this.
4. Up until today i considered Tani, Noash and yourself to be experienced and good enough players to give input on this matter, but you guys are actually having a terrible go at getting your points across in these Threads. Way to heated/Way to sweaty in most of your postings. And reading half a sentence and adding another half by yourself to fire yourself up is not helping either.
5. There are like 8-9 (?) People that go back and forth about this Topic in this and the other thread. You are way to up in arms for this little quarrel. You are making look yourself worse than you should.
6. Devs are pretty aware of what an Assassin can do and what they cant do. Adding /Switch command, and PA/Debuff change are proof of that.

My advice to you: Get back to the start and look where or what the dissonance is and try to clear it up, before raising your fists.

Where in my original post did I give an opinion on whether or not assassins are overpowered? I was merely giving a platform for the majority of people shouting nerf assassins to get their point across. If assassins are indeed over tuned, then this should be an open and shut case, no?

Are assassins good versus non-solo specced classes that are caught alone? Sure, as they should be. However, if you take that group specced class, drop the det9 and add some defensive RAs, you will eat up any assassin -- myself, Tani, and Noash included.

There are choices in DAoC --- you can't expect a hero specced Purge5 / IP3 / MoParry 7 to do well in 8v8 fights and on the same token, you cant expect a Det9 / Purge 2 / SB 3 hero to do well in a 1v1 fight. It is quite simple =)

The challenge still stands--

Anyone who wants to level an assassin to 50 can borrow one of my templates for this experiment.

I will stand still and allow the perf/backstab to occur. And, of course, I will not use DT if you decide to fight my Mercenary.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:29 PM by Taniquetil

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 9:43 PM
4. Up until today i considered Tani, Noash and yourself to be experienced and good enough players to give input on this matter, but you guys are actually having a terrible go at getting your points across in these Threads. Way to heated/Way to sweaty in most of your postings. And reading half a sentence and adding another half by yourself to fire yourself up is not helping either.

Think what many of us are saying is there are tanks and sins here who do not believe a nerf is needed willing to make themselves available to take part in a trial to either prove sins are OP or help change opinions.

The most fun part of the game for me is in the challenge... and this is what my frustration is born out of, it seems as though those arguing for a nerf would like it to be essentially pointless for an assassin to attack a tank, at which point it becomes boring and less colourful game. Which would be sad.

As of this thread, I’m generally just tired of the moans honestly, I would like to help change opinions and offer solutions but it seems to be poorly received. Imo reaching RR5 on any toon is very doable in a pretty short period, RR4 was reached by many in a weekend during the event, and I’d happily provide a template, but thats by the by.

Generally there are tanks and sins who both are willing to step up to prove that there isnt a balance issue, I’m also willing to help those who feel there are get kitted out to take part in the experiment.

Overall I’d be happy if people saw this as a learning opp and it improved gameplay across the board. As much as i wasn’t a huge fan of the /bow nature of the solozone, it was at least good for people to learn their class strengths.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:31 PM by Freudinio

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 7:00 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 6:42 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:28 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:26 PM
There still people that don't believe this server is a stealthers paradise?

For soloing? Yes.. Due to the culture and adding nature of the server.

Are they OP 1v1 as many on this forum suggest? Hell. No.

Any decent tank or hybrid should win 95% of the fights vs. an assassin if played/specced properly. I don't even use DT on my merc in 1v1s and I cannot remember the last time I lost to a solo stealther tbh.

Edit:

I want a straight answer from DJ/anyone else that believe assassins are overpowered... Is it strictly due to their ability to choose fights? I mean.. that is a rather ridiculous argument, no?

I am offering people who claim assassins are overpowered to show the phoenix staff that they are indeed imbalanced and I have 0 takers so far.

I don't personally think they are op. But they are definitely strong. I mean, there must be a reason that there are so many stealthers on this server, despite that nobody apparently solos. And I'm pretty sure that reason isn't that they are hot garbage.

As its already been stated many times, I'll still reiterate.. there are so many assassins on this server b/c soloing on a visi is pure trash. Outside of maybe a skald or minst, a stealther is the only viable option. Like mentioned already, you cant change the mindset of the entire player base to not zerg down soloers. So therefore you have a lot of assassins.

Let's say that point is true. Then why are assassins (and stealthers in general) almost never solo then?

Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:40 PM by protege

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:31 PM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 7:00 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 6:42 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:28 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 4:26 PM
There still people that don't believe this server is a stealthers paradise?

For soloing? Yes.. Due to the culture and adding nature of the server.

Are they OP 1v1 as many on this forum suggest? Hell. No.

Any decent tank or hybrid should win 95% of the fights vs. an assassin if played/specced properly. I don't even use DT on my merc in 1v1s and I cannot remember the last time I lost to a solo stealther tbh.

Edit:

I want a straight answer from DJ/anyone else that believe assassins are overpowered... Is it strictly due to their ability to choose fights? I mean.. that is a rather ridiculous argument, no?

I am offering people who claim assassins are overpowered to show the phoenix staff that they are indeed imbalanced and I have 0 takers so far.

I don't personally think they are op. But they are definitely strong. I mean, there must be a reason that there are so many stealthers on this server, despite that nobody apparently solos. And I'm pretty sure that reason isn't that they are hot garbage.

As its already been stated many times, I'll still reiterate.. there are so many assassins on this server b/c soloing on a visi is pure trash. Outside of maybe a skald or minst, a stealther is the only viable option. Like mentioned already, you cant change the mindset of the entire player base to not zerg down soloers. So therefore you have a lot of assassins.

Let's say that point is true. Then why are assassins (and stealthers in general) almost never solo then?

The same reason the majority of the server zergs/adds -- easier to make RPs and feel accomplished when you outnumber your opponents.

Stealth zergers aren't looking for fair fights, typically. They are there to catch stragglers and kill solos without the challenge of doing it alone.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:54 PM by Jingo NZ

There is no such thing as a fair fight. Because of human nature we want to win. So we end up with the RVR ecosystem where there is always a bigger fish. People feed on the smaller fish while trying to avoid the bigger fish.

Of course this is the reason few visis solo, since it is so hard to avoid the bigger fish. This leaves assassins as the most viable solo option for the ecosystem.

Personally I'd like to see more QOL support for visi solo, since these are the phytoplankton of the ecosystem.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 11:42 PM by Taniquetil

Jingo NZ wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:54 PM
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Because of human nature we want to win. So we end up with the RVR ecosystem where there is always a bigger fish. People feed on the smaller fish while trying to avoid the bigger fish.

Of course this is the reason few visis solo, since it is so hard to avoid the bigger fish. This leaves assassins as the most viable solo option for the ecosystem.

Personally I'd like to see more QOL support for visi solo, since these are the phytoplankton of the ecosystem.

Disagree, I like the challenge of fighting the bigger fish, its the fun of it. A fair few of us (visis and sins, and 8mans fighting zergs) have gone out of our way to find these scenarios going to solo at a heavy RR disadvantage, or at a numbers disadvantage but still fight and still try to come out on top.

Biggest reason as stated is the server behaviour of zerging/steamrolling smaller nums, until that changes, the huge proportion of players who solo or smallman will play classes with stealth.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 12:02 AM by Jingo NZ

We are essentially saying the same thing. It is the exception that proves the rule. The fact that only a few people dedicate their time to play "against the odds" supports the generalisation that people want to eat small fish and dodge big fish.

Also, no one is going to admit this of themselves. In our heads we are all heroes who love a challenge.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 7:27 AM by Aprox

protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:24 PM
Not to spam my own thread, but cloth wearers can most certainly farm stealthers if played correctly. Take a page from Xpovoc’s book.

Theurg with conc should win 99% of the time
Eldritch should win as well
Sorc ? Yeah
Cabalists can kill stealthers
SMs...

The list goes on

And what does a mentalist or eld do, when the qc-mezz gets resisted or purged? static or ichor may save the day, but only if u have purge up urself to cure the poison. even then everyone should have atleast a dd charge for interrupt and the caster dies. i can win vs assasins with my mentalist...but only if the assasin has no purge and my qc-mezz does not get resisted.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 8:02 AM by Jingo NZ

I think casters farming stealthers (edit: assassins) is hyperbole. I play theurg and I have to purge CD to survive, then blow my RA load to try to set up some dmg. But of course once I do this the assassin just hits vanish to reset. If I cannot hit them with my staff during vanish I have to leave the area to prevent getting PA 3 shot since my purge is down.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 9:28 AM by Stoertebecker

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 10:31 PM
Let's say that point is true. Then why are assassins (and stealthers in general) almost never solo then?

There are enough stealthers that are solo (adding is another thing), but there are also enough sneaks that are running in groups of 2 or more.
You´ll get that if you play an assassin or archer daily.
Playing my hunter now for 2-3 month daily and i can tell you exactly who is solo, who is sometimes grouped and who is never alone. I see the killspam and i know where they are. Creature of habits...

With 30-35 sneaks at peak times on each side and 3 maps (og, hw and emain) + the task-area it is common sense that they`ll be clustered somewhere around the chokepoints dock + bridges and runways to this points, so it is possible that it looks like they are all grouped

Wed 9 Dec 2020 3:39 PM by protege

Aprox wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:24 PM
Not to spam my own thread, but cloth wearers can most certainly farm stealthers if played correctly. Take a page from Xpovoc’s book.

Theurg with conc should win 99% of the time
Eldritch should win as well
Sorc ? Yeah
Cabalists can kill stealthers
SMs...

The list goes on

And what does a mentalist or eld do, when the qc-mezz gets resisted or purged? static or ichor may save the day, but only if u have purge up urself to cure the poison. even then everyone should have atleast a dd charge for interrupt and the caster dies. i can win vs assasins with my mentalist...but only if the assasin has no purge and my qc-mezz does not get resisted.

Concentration 5 is a solo caster's best friend...

Edit:

I mean no offense to you, but I think this is a prime example of why people believe assassins are overpowered... And I doubt that this gentleman's thinking process is the anomaly here, but a light mentalist should be able to win almost every fight versus an assassin if played correctly.

Mentalists:
Mezz
Stun
Multiple pets in the frontier that can root/stun/mezz
ST (resets stun timer as well)
Concentration 5 (double quickcast ever 30 seconds)
Heals

Wed 9 Dec 2020 3:45 PM by thirian24

protege wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 3:39 PM
Aprox wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:24 PM
Not to spam my own thread, but cloth wearers can most certainly farm stealthers if played correctly. Take a page from Xpovoc’s book.

Theurg with conc should win 99% of the time
Eldritch should win as well
Sorc ? Yeah
Cabalists can kill stealthers
SMs...

The list goes on

And what does a mentalist or eld do, when the qc-mezz gets resisted or purged? static or ichor may save the day, but only if u have purge up urself to cure the poison. even then everyone should have atleast a dd charge for interrupt and the caster dies. i can win vs assasins with my mentalist...but only if the assasin has no purge and my qc-mezz does not get resisted.

Concentration 5 is a solo caster's best friend...

Stop with the common sense please.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 4:45 PM by Pzynom

protege wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 3:39 PM
Aprox wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:24 PM
Not to spam my own thread, but cloth wearers can most certainly farm stealthers if played correctly. Take a page from Xpovoc’s book.

Theurg with conc should win 99% of the time
Eldritch should win as well
Sorc ? Yeah
Cabalists can kill stealthers
SMs...

The list goes on

And what does a mentalist or eld do, when the qc-mezz gets resisted or purged? static or ichor may save the day, but only if u have purge up urself to cure the poison. even then everyone should have atleast a dd charge for interrupt and the caster dies. i can win vs assasins with my mentalist...but only if the assasin has no purge and my qc-mezz does not get resisted.

Concentration 5 is a solo caster's best friend...

Edit:

I mean no offense to you, but I think this is a prime example of why people believe assassins are overpowered... And I doubt that this gentleman's thinking process is the anomaly here, but a light mentalist should be able to win almost every fight versus an assassin if played correctly.

Mentalists:
Mezz
Stun
Multiple pets in the frontier that can root/stun/mezz
ST (resets stun timer as well)
Concentration 5 (double quickcast ever 30 seconds)
Heals

Hi

generally I think Assassins are fine.
But I got curious with the caster fight and 99% win for Theurgs.

Fight: NS attacks Theurg and stuns (1 Sec to react+hit counter), QC Mezz (10% Resist rate + Duration 2 secs), Purge by NS, Concentration+QC+Root (10% Resist rate + Duration 2 secs).
With some reaction time the NS had 7-8 secs to bash on you. Now you used purge+concentration and you have a rooted NS, if not one of the 10% resist rates came into play.
This NS will now prob start casting you, while you try to distance with disease. As a caster you are already in trouble having an Assassin beating you for 7 secs. Most of the time you are dead. If you succeed you try to distance while preventing the Assassin from getting into Stealth. And the Assassin prob has vanish.

Means to even CC a RR4 NS as a Theurg you need to survive ~7 secs of straight beating, have purge and concentration ready and prob PD. If a resist kicks in, you lose RAs + fight.

You can try first root to pull purge, but also tricky with distancing and the mezz does not last very long, even as a Wind theurg, problem usually is the disease.
And if the NS puts as many points in AoM as the Thuerg in PD, the Thuerg wont stand a chance.

Personally I think it's really though for a non-LT-Moc Caster to win vs a decent assassin. And I personally also think, that's how it should be.

Thanks, Pzy

Wed 9 Dec 2020 5:28 PM by Taniquetil

Pzynom wrote: But I got curious with the caster fight and 99% win for Theurgs.

Personally not a fan of paper daoc, but what Beaver is trying to say is it's primarily possible to beat a class, or in this case an assassin if you put your mind to it or would like to. Theurg access to multiple CC is helpful in this case.

Number 1 rule, make yourself hard to PA.... running to docks? Go the long way, run weird loops, turn randomly, dont straightline to the docks, you're begging for it.

Some exceptions to those rules were really BD's/SM/Necros for pretty much anyone, BD+SM have been tuned a bit and are now are a bit more of a fair fight.

His point was if you want to beat an assassin with any class, it's doable, casters have a rougher time of it, but i've definitely been dropped by Xpovoc (Eldritch) a few times, even congratulated him on it as I thought he played well and deserved a thumbs up.

PA whiff as he's turning randomly, Mezzs me, I purge, He Conc stuns me, kites, snare DD + Disease and I'm done for, pistol whips me with a bolt for style points on the kill

. He played well, got me another time with Ichor as well. I've obviously also had fights vs him where I've gobbled him up as well but hey, he's a fun fight and you gotta respect when someone plays their class well. QQ Eld OP? Nope, all good, part of the game. Well played that man.

TheBigBomb has some great vids of him pulling it off against sins as well with wicked use of GTAOE to pop sins out of stealth and gobble them up. Point is, if you try and put your mind to it on any class, an assassin is very beatable.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:18 PM by keen

This thread is getting funny, now even almost all casters have an easy time Vs Assassins.
I'm wondering if the conclusion of this thread is that assassins need a buff.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:38 PM by protege

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:18 PM
This thread is getting funny, now even almost all casters have an easy time Vs Assassins.
I'm wondering if the conclusion of this thread is that assassins need a buff.

Hop on an assassin and I’ll log my theurg

I think it would make for an interesting fight... again, not saying I will win every time, but I think the fight would be balanced !

Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:39 PM by Noashakra

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:18 PM
This thread is getting funny, now even almost all casters have an easy time Vs Assassins.
I'm wondering if the conclusion of this thread is that assassins need a buff.

What I find funny is how someone with 280 solo kills on his whole account, who also plays a ranger adder only near crau bridge with his keep as a back up, is giving his opinion about what is OP or not in 1vs1.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 8:19 PM by Siouxsie

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 12:57 AM
Keen, lets strike a deal. I’ll get a tank to RR5, you get a sin to RR5, we can fight some 10-20 fights?, if you win more than 10-20% of the fights as the sin, you will have changed my opinion and I’ll agree that sins need a nerf. Note thats you winning 4 out of 20 fights, realistically I’d have suggested 50% as a real number, and if you really think sins are OP I think you should be a man and bet that you’ll win 50% of them. But in the interest of extending an olive branch to you I’ll do 10-20%. I’ll even lend you a fully capped assassin template to do so (note agreeing to this and then stealing/selling/deleting the template is officially rule breaking and bannable read 9.3, so pretty happy to do this.)

I suggest 2 ways of doing this, your preference. Both of these methods id happily accept if I was on my asassin.

1. Duel Arena
We continually duel, sequentially, no breaks, cone back and fight as quickly as possible each time.?timers land as they fall, neither side waits for timers and it comes down to management of timers.

2. Fight scenario Simulation:
Assassin can always have the opener, but there are two conditions, both ‘inevitable scenarios’ are ruled out.
a) Assassin never needs to attack without purge up. I think its quite boring to watch an assassin sit through a slam and then type /release. This allows you to ‘pick’ your fight, because sitting through slam to die is probably not that fun of a simulation.
b) CD stun for the assassin is also ruled out unless an active RA is up for the tank (eg purge or IP for example) as realistically sitting through a full stun with nothing up is an uphill battle for almost everyone, as it should be, kinda the unique point of the class.

Beyond that:
Realistically the only reason I don’t really play a solo visi class on this server is because of how toxic the server is towards any type of soloing, have had RR11 solo visis before on other servers and had a lot of fun with it, but whilst everything here is added or zerged to oblivion and solos have no counter to it I’ll stick to the class with the better ability to avoid it. Mad respect to those who do it relentlessly as visis, youre all mental, dont know how you dont mind getting brainlessly zerged or having armies of coastguards mow you down continually, but yeah....

Also happy to participate in general beyond this, only got a minst templated currently, but the minstrel is pretty unfair/OP 1v1

How about posting specs and RAs from both classes as part of the test?

Wed 9 Dec 2020 9:06 PM by Stoertebecker

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:39 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:18 PM
This thread is getting funny, now even almost all casters have an easy time Vs Assassins.
I'm wondering if the conclusion of this thread is that assassins need a buff.

What I find funny is how someone with 280 solo kills on his whole account, who also plays a ranger adder only near crau bridge with his keep as a back up, is giving his opinion about what is OP or not in 1vs1.

I`m pretty sure you`d find some archers somewhere else if they had something like the chicken flight button *Vanish*.
Using the terrain is the art of war

Wed 9 Dec 2020 10:23 PM by protege

Pzynom wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 4:45 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 3:39 PM
Aprox wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 7:27 AM
protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:24 PM
Not to spam my own thread, but cloth wearers can most certainly farm stealthers if played correctly. Take a page from Xpovoc’s book.

Theurg with conc should win 99% of the time
Eldritch should win as well
Sorc ? Yeah
Cabalists can kill stealthers
SMs...

The list goes on

And what does a mentalist or eld do, when the qc-mezz gets resisted or purged? static or ichor may save the day, but only if u have purge up urself to cure the poison. even then everyone should have atleast a dd charge for interrupt and the caster dies. i can win vs assasins with my mentalist...but only if the assasin has no purge and my qc-mezz does not get resisted.

Concentration 5 is a solo caster's best friend...

Edit:

I mean no offense to you, but I think this is a prime example of why people believe assassins are overpowered... And I doubt that this gentleman's thinking process is the anomaly here, but a light mentalist should be able to win almost every fight versus an assassin if played correctly.

Mentalists:
Mezz
Stun
Multiple pets in the frontier that can root/stun/mezz
ST (resets stun timer as well)
Concentration 5 (double quickcast ever 30 seconds)
Heals

Hi

generally I think Assassins are fine.
But I got curious with the caster fight and 99% win for Theurgs.

Fight: NS attacks Theurg and stuns (1 Sec to react+hit counter), QC Mezz (10% Resist rate + Duration 2 secs), Purge by NS, Concentration+QC+Root (10% Resist rate + Duration 2 secs).
With some reaction time the NS had 7-8 secs to bash on you. Now you used purge+concentration and you have a rooted NS, if not one of the 10% resist rates came into play.
This NS will now prob start casting you, while you try to distance with disease. As a caster you are already in trouble having an Assassin beating you for 7 secs. Most of the time you are dead. If you succeed you try to distance while preventing the Assassin from getting into Stealth. And the Assassin prob has vanish.

Means to even CC a RR4 NS as a Theurg you need to survive ~7 secs of straight beating, have purge and concentration ready and prob PD. If a resist kicks in, you lose RAs + fight.

You can try first root to pull purge, but also tricky with distancing and the mezz does not last very long, even as a Wind theurg, problem usually is the disease.
And if the NS puts as many points in AoM as the Thuerg in PD, the Thuerg wont stand a chance.

Personally I think it's really though for a non-LT-Moc Caster to win vs a decent assassin. And I personally also think, that's how it should be.

Thanks, Pzy

AoM will have little to no effect on the survivability versus a Theurgist. The killers are the pets -- specifically the air pets. Once you have 3-5 pets on you, you may as well go afk and grab a beer because the fight is over.

A theurg just needs a little bit of distance / CC to turn the fight in that direction.. If he roots first, and the assassin purges (and puts snare/disease on him), the theurg will most ikely have to purge and double heal to gain that distance, but the end result is the same.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 11:34 PM by Freudinio

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 5:28 PM
Pzynom wrote: But I got curious with the caster fight and 99% win for Theurgs.

Personally not a fan of paper daoc, but what Beaver is trying to say is it's primarily possible to beat a class, or in this case an assassin if you put your mind to it or would like to. Theurg access to multiple CC is helpful in this case.

Number 1 rule, make yourself hard to PA.... running to docks? Go the long way, run weird loops, turn randomly, dont straightline to the docks, you're begging for it.

Some exceptions to those rules were really BD's/SM/Necros for pretty much anyone, BD+SM have been tuned a bit and are now are a bit more of a fair fight.

His point was if you want to beat an assassin with any class, it's doable, casters have a rougher time of it, but i've definitely been dropped by Xpovoc (Eldritch) a few times, even congratulated him on it as I thought he played well and deserved a thumbs up.

PA whiff as he's turning randomly, Mezzs me, I purge, He Conc stuns me, kites, snare DD + Disease and I'm done for, pistol whips me with a bolt for style points on the kill . He played well, got me another time with Ichor as well. I've obviously also had fights vs him where I've gobbled him up as well but hey, he's a fun fight and you gotta respect when someone plays their class well. QQ Eld OP? Nope, all good, part of the game. Well played that man.

TheBigBomb has some great vids of him pulling it off against sins as well with wicked use of GTAOE to pop sins out of stealth and gobble them up. Point is, if you try and put your mind to it on any class, an assassin is very beatable.

But isn't that part of the problem? Only a select few visibles are setup for solo action, which makes it appear as though sins are incredibly strong, as you will pretty much mow down everything else.

Which to me brings us back to the key feature of assassins, you get to pick your targets. I soloed quite a bit on my reaver and it was extremely obvious how, as I increased in Realm Rank, the volume of fights decreased as well.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:13 AM by protege

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 8:16 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Dec 2020 11:24 PM
Not to spam my own thread, but cloth wearers can most certainly farm stealthers if played correctly. Take a page from Xpovoc’s book.

Theurg with conc should win 99% of the time
Eldritch should win as well
Sorc ? Yeah
Cabalists can kill stealthers
SMs...

The list goes on

To add to that list: Necros.. with their "I can cast twice in 3 seconds and use lifetap and have an OP armor absorb debuff I can use".

Necros are easily taken care of by a bridge, lip, or dock with the pet-LoS update. Can’t remember the last time I lost to a necro in a fair fight.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 7:47 AM by Noashakra

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 9:06 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:39 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:18 PM
This thread is getting funny, now even almost all casters have an easy time Vs Assassins.
I'm wondering if the conclusion of this thread is that assassins need a buff.

What I find funny is how someone with 280 solo kills on his whole account, who also plays a ranger adder only near crau bridge with his keep as a back up, is giving his opinion about what is OP or not in 1vs1.

I`m pretty sure you`d find some archers somewhere else if they had something like the chicken flight button *Vanish*.
Using the terrain is the art of war

Adding and playing where people can help you isn't asking any particular skill.
When you don't solo and complain about class balance, it's kind of rich. I played my ranger almost full solo, and now my NS, and I have an idea about how assassins perform.
He is making stupid post after stupid post, which make sense because adding people with 50 in bow doesn't bring experience about what is OP in 1vs1 or not.

Which to me brings us back to the key feature of assassins, you get to pick your targets. I soloed quite a bit on my reaver and it was extremely obvious how, as I increased in Realm Rank, the volume of fights decreased as well.

You have to admit it's quite different from "they can kill everything 1vs1"

Thu 10 Dec 2020 8:03 AM by Stoertebecker

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 7:47 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 9:06 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:39 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:18 PM
This thread is getting funny, now even almost all casters have an easy time Vs Assassins.
I'm wondering if the conclusion of this thread is that assassins need a buff.

What I find funny is how someone with 280 solo kills on his whole account, who also plays a ranger adder only near crau bridge with his keep as a back up, is giving his opinion about what is OP or not in 1vs1.

I`m pretty sure you`d find some archers somewhere else if they had something like the chicken flight button *Vanish*.
Using the terrain is the art of war

Adding and playing where people can help you isn't asking any particular skill.

And jumping rr3 casters if you`re rr8 does? Nm, that wasn`t my point.
The point was that there would be maybe more solo archers if they have an escape tool like chicken flight.

You saw that as they introduced stop for scouts with 15s root. Out of the sudden there were some scouts solo open field and not hiding on a tower or keep walls.
And you saw that (not on Phoenix ofc) as they introduced styles for hunter pets like garotte and desease.
What has a hunter here to get some distance? A snare as the 2nd style of a after evade chain, if he use spears.

Btw, i`m not sure if reapplying poison with each swing and abusing a mechanic that was thought as a dot turning it into a damage add is something i would call *skill*.
Do it by hand without switch and we talk again.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 9:00 AM by Taniquetil

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 11:34 PM
But isn't that part of the problem? Only a select few visibles are setup for solo action, which makes it appear as though sins are incredibly strong, as you will pretty much mow down everything else.

Not really, you go in to battle prepared or not, thats everyones choice. an 8man zerg hunting bomb group doesnt run the same RAs for bombing zergs as it would to fight other 8mans.
You want a mix of abilities between 8man and solo, maybe dont fully spec the traditional 8man cookiecutter RA build.

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 11:34 PM
Which to me brings us back to the key feature of assassins, you get to pick your targets. I soloed quite a bit on my reaver and it was extremely obvious how, as I increased in Realm Rank, the volume of fights decreased as well.

So you're saying you notice that assassins are much more hesitant to attack you as you ranked up?

Thu 10 Dec 2020 10:23 AM by Noashakra

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 8:03 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 7:47 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 9:06 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:39 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:18 PM
This thread is getting funny, now even almost all casters have an easy time Vs Assassins.
I'm wondering if the conclusion of this thread is that assassins need a buff.

What I find funny is how someone with 280 solo kills on his whole account, who also plays a ranger adder only near crau bridge with his keep as a back up, is giving his opinion about what is OP or not in 1vs1.

I`m pretty sure you`d find some archers somewhere else if they had something like the chicken flight button *Vanish*.
Using the terrain is the art of war

Adding and playing where people can help you isn't asking any particular skill.

And jumping rr3 casters if you`re rr8 does? Nm, that wasn`t my point.
The point was that there would be maybe more solo archers if they have an escape tool like chicken flight.

You saw that as they introduced stop for scouts with 15s root. Out of the sudden there were some scouts solo open field and not hiding on a tower or keep walls.
And you saw that (not on Phoenix ofc) as they introduced styles for hunter pets like garotte and desease.
What has a hunter here to get some distance? A snare as the 2nd style of a after evade chain, if he use spears.

Btw, i`m not sure if reapplying poison with each swing and abusing a mechanic that was thought as a dot turning it into a damage add is something i would call *skill*.
Do it by hand without switch and we talk again.

Rofl, you can't reapply poison with each swing on phoenix. Nice try. Why people speak without knowing? The same people that will ask for a nerf lmao. If you reapply a poison, it'll just reset the lenght of the dot and it will wait for the next tick to do so.

Archers have IP. let's trade vanish for IP and see how the people will cry. I played my archer solo and I didn't add. Get some balls, don't go full bow spec, and see what you can do... And you know what? I could win 1vs1 vs asn and I didn't have to add. If you don't want to do that, nopb, but then don't come to speak about the balance in the game when you have no experience about 1vs1.

And lol, no, there were still no solo scouts, except maybe 2 that soloed once in a while (sioned and watika)...

And I think archers need some love for solo, we can all agree with that, that's why I stopped my ranger (9L9). But Archers being underpowered has no link to assassins being overpowered. And I can bet 100 bucks right now that keen would still be an adder if there was an up. Look at trollselphie, 11L and he still can't play his toon properly, he has to run to people unstealth to leech 50rps, when he is 1vs1 he panicks and don't know what to do, it's hillarious.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 11:13 AM by Stoertebecker

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 10:23 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 8:03 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 7:47 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 9:06 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:39 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 6:18 PM
This thread is getting funny, now even almost all casters have an easy time Vs Assassins.
I'm wondering if the conclusion of this thread is that assassins need a buff.

What I find funny is how someone with 280 solo kills on his whole account, who also plays a ranger adder only near crau bridge with his keep as a back up, is giving his opinion about what is OP or not in 1vs1.

I`m pretty sure you`d find some archers somewhere else if they had something like the chicken flight button *Vanish*.
Using the terrain is the art of war

Adding and playing where people can help you isn't asking any particular skill.

And jumping rr3 casters if you`re rr8 does? Nm, that wasn`t my point.
The point was that there would be maybe more solo archers if they have an escape tool like chicken flight.

You saw that as they introduced stop for scouts with 15s root. Out of the sudden there were some scouts solo open field and not hiding on a tower or keep walls.
And you saw that (not on Phoenix ofc) as they introduced styles for hunter pets like garotte and desease.
What has a hunter here to get some distance? A snare as the 2nd style of a after evade chain, if he use spears.

Btw, i`m not sure if reapplying poison with each swing and abusing a mechanic that was thought as a dot turning it into a damage add is something i would call *skill*.
Do it by hand without switch and we talk again.

Rofl, you can't reapply poison with each swing on phoenix. Nice try. Why people speak without knowing? The same people that will ask for a nerf lmao. If you reapply a poison, it'll just reset the lenght of the dot and it will wait for the next tick to do so.

Archers have IP. let's trade vanish for IP and see how the people will cry. I played my archer solo and I didn't add. Get some balls, don't go full bow spec, and see what you can do... And you know what? I could win 1vs1 vs asn and I didn't have to add. If you don't want to do that, nopb, but then don't come to speak about the balance in the game when you have no experience about 1vs1.

And lol, no, there were still no solo scouts, except maybe 2 that soloed once in a while (sioned and watika)...

Well, I´d suggest you try it again with reapplying, maybe it shouldn`t work but it still does unter some cirumstances...like they said they fixed minstrels pets issues while mezzed.

No, no trade. You loose your Vanish, and i my IP. Instead i get the goodies for my Pet, that includes frenzy, garotte and disease. Deal?
Nah, you`d hate it more than IP on hunters

Unfortunately I have to disappoint you, no full bow spec on my hunter. Fair amount of bow and spear, and still nearly zero chance vs an assassin with the same rr in melee.
But hey, it`s a hunter. It`s the only class in Mid that can spec a bow and i use it. If i want to play a melee char i would play a Sb, but i can`t play something where i think that reapplying, switching and macroing is a poor game mechanik. I know that may be impossible to understand for someone that is playing assassin classes.
Like it`s nearly impossible to understand for archer players that other classes don`t like getting plugged with arrows from the distance.

Btw... some is more than 1 and less than all.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 11:15 AM by Noashakra

No it doesn't work dude, you don't know what you speak about. Show us the proof, the burden of proof is on you. Phoenix changed the dot mechanics, because of the /switch. You are speaking out of your butt, and you should show us video/screenshots of this, because it would be a bug.

like they said they fixed minstrels pets issues while mezzed.

I have a ministrel and again you speak out of your butt.

PS: I was speaking about keen for the full bow spec.

No, no trade. You loose your Vanish, and i my IP. Instead i get the goodies for my Pet, that includes frenzy, garotte and disease. Deal?
Nah, you`d hate it more than IP on hunters

Lmao, and a sneaker's bar + 500 bucks too.
And remove shields from tanks too btw!

I know that may be impossible to understand for someone that is playing assassin classes.

https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Noashakra
I am number 3 solo kills archer of this server, behind Alusetta and Ifan.
What about you? Again, someone who did not tell us who he is in game, I wonder why.

I will tell you the truth. At the moment, there is not one hunter that plays well on this server. I laugh everytime I see one panicking when they are in melee, they don't even summon their pets until they are at 40% life.

The fact is, archers are hard to solo with, but it's not impossible. You prefer the easy way, and I understand that, because it's frustrating. That's why I made a NS after almost hitting the 10L.
Now, I never thought assassins were OP. The fact your classe is sub par is not a basis to tell that a class that regulary beats you is OP. But this require more thought than X beats me so it's overpowered.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 11:45 AM by Stoertebecker

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 11:15 AM
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Noashakra
I am number 3 solo kills archer of this server, behind Alusetta and Ifan.
What about you?

You should know from our controversial discussion that i give a shit on stats and how someone plays.

I`m playing here from day 1 and i know how ppl did their solokills, in particular those stealth-class players that don`t play here anymore.
You know that those players made a great bunch of their solokills as the keeps were the task-area and they were coastguarding this keeps, or?

I also know that you like to sneak around the way between the first ev bridge and amg if the task is on ev, trying to get the poor solos that try to get to the flags.
Honorable fights, eh? Like Brainstorm, like Wutan and all the others. Don`t tell me something about those fair and even solo fights

My identity is a secret, i`m not sure myself if i`m here or not and my battleflag is 00hunter

I don`t think assassins are op, but reapplying (not only dot), switching and ahk is cheesy gameplay and a worse class design. There should be other ways after 20 years.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:03 PM by Loki

He’s also self admitted proud blue and green con killer, here to tell us how proficient in soloing he is. It’s so obvious that people inflate their stats knowingly so that they can come to the forums to throw challenges and imaginary game knowledge.

Phoenix doesn’t have a solo community, and anyone asking anything in its name is a hypocrite .

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:06 PM by Noashakra

I also know that you like to sneak around the way between the first ev bridge and amg if the task is on ev, trying to get the poor solos that try to get to the flags.

LMAO the poor solo with buffs, going through a place know to have solo stealthers there. Owmygawd so lame.
You are ridiculous dude. I go where I can find solo fights, and it's not near bled/beno/crau with all the lame coastguarding that you will find that.

AHK is kind of bad I agree, but stealthers are not the only ones benefiting from it...
I am not the one doing the rules of the server on that.
Switching weapons for poisons is how the assassins were designed, deal with it. What's next, removing all the debuffs from the champion? Shields from tanks?

Loki wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:03 PM
He’s also self admitted proud blue and green con killer, here to tell us how proficient in soloing he is. It’s so obvious that people inflate their stats knowingly so that they can come to the forums to throw challenges and imaginary game knowledge.

Phoenix doesn’t have a solo community, and anyone asking anything in its name is a hypocrite .

Ahhh Loki is back, when you
The famous I jsut lost so let me log my other toon because my RAs are down
https://ibb.co/n3dV26s
You don't play much anymore, are you tired of playing near your TP and switch between toons?

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:15 PM by Loki

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:06 PM
Ahhh Loki is back, when you
The famous I lose 1vs1 so let me log my other toon because my RAs are down
https://ibb.co/n3dV26s

I never lost a 1v1 against you because you dont 1v1 . And the real strategy is “ there’s clowns at Upp docks that dodge my skald and refuse to fight, Im gonna log SB, make them Vanish and buy a ticket back home”. I have plenty of videos like that, silly bunny.

Nice deflection, why arent you mentioning how you got your stats. Last time you said you werent afraid to admit it, what changed ? To see you mention yourself next to Ifan is hilarious, you dont exist as a Ranger.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:17 PM by Stoertebecker

Loki wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:03 PM
He’s also self admitted proud blue and green con killer, here to tell us how proficient in soloing he is. It’s so obvious that people inflate their stats knowingly so that they can come to the forums to throw challenges and imaginary game knowledge.

I`m not going to say that he can`t play his classes, he surely can. But yes, mostly all of them (if not all of us) started this way.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:17 PM by Noashakra

Loki wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:15 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:06 PM
Ahhh Loki is back, when you
The famous I lose 1vs1 so let me log my other toon because my RAs are down
https://ibb.co/n3dV26s
I never lost a 1v1 against you because you dont 1v1 . And the real strategy is “ there’s clowns at Upp docks that dodge my skald and refuse to fight, Im gonna log SB, make them Vanish and buy a ticket back home”. I have plenty of videos like that, silly bunny.

Nice deflection, why arent you mentioning how you got your stats. Last time you said you werent afraid to admit it, what changed ?

Sad you can't switch account on the forums like toons IG to try to easy win, am I right?

that dodge my skald and refuse to fight,

You mean your skald that SOS to the relic gate as soon as he is losing?

I`m not going to say that he can`t play his classes, he surely can. But yes, mostly all of them (if not all of us) started this way.

It's not the case on the NS, I have an average of 800killrp per kill
The ranger is at 450 if I remember well.
I am not going to reply to the "I never lost 1vs1" everyone can make their own idea about that lmao.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:23 PM by Pzynom

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 5:28 PM
....
TheBigBomb has some great vids of him pulling it off against sins as well with wicked use of GTAOE to pop sins out of stealth and gobble them up. Point is, if you try and put your mind to it on any class, an assassin is very beatable.

But isn't that part of the problem? Only a select few visibles are setup for solo action, which makes it appear as though sins are incredibly strong, as you will pretty much mow down everything else.

Dont like Daoc Paper as well, but the conversation between other players went like: It's difficult because -> Reply: This is part of the prob you dont know the class, Ment has ...
Ok, if answers like that are given, then we jump on details and no a theurg will not win 99% of the time. Already the resists prevent that. Would be more like 15%.

BUT that's not the point, I agree and you came up with a valid statement.
You cannot compare the 1vs1 capabilities of a class with group potential with a dedicated 1vs1 class.
So I would not argue about Ments and Theurgs. Assassins are strong and maybe OP in 1vs1, because they are tailored for it. Certain classes can prob do the same, then you are down to the details. From a casters perspective Assassins are strong, but not too strong. My view not having a stealther.

Devs decided to establish a disadvantage for grouped Stealthers/multiple in area. Ok, then to me it's consiquent they have advatages when solo and to be freared if you walk solo.

Thanks

Pzy

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:31 PM by Stoertebecker

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:06 PM
I also know that you like to sneak around the way between the first ev bridge and amg if the task is on ev, trying to get the poor solos that try to get to the flags.

LMAO the poor solo with buffs, going through a place know to have solo stealthers there. Owmygawd so lame.
You are ridiculous dude. I go where I can find solo fights, and it's not near bled/beno/crau with all the lame coastguarding that you will find that.

AHK is kind of bad I agree, but stealthers are not the only ones benefiting from it...
I am not the one doing the rules of the server on that.
Switching weapons for poisons is how the assassins were designed, deal with it. What's next, removing all the debuffs from the champion? Shields from tanks?

Meh, and why i am ridiculous if i do the same, just on a hunter? Oh, i forgot, the tower in my back....oops.

The nice thing on stealth classes is, you don`t have to engage. Just stay there and watch the spectacle. Sometimes more worth than 1k rp or a db

Assassins were designed to switch it by hand not with a click on a button, that the difference. And it worked all the years.
And you notice this difference if you run into an assassin that don`t switch via /switch or reapply at all.

Playes 2005/6 on Gareth, classic us server. No buffbots etc. But...i had a poison bot

Was effective, Galvorne weapons with a dot-proc amd poisoned on top.
The shitstorm, oh my, what a shitstorm, poisoned weapons only allowed for assassins etcetc....
Sure it was cheesy, but the game mechanic allowed assassins to poison other players weapons.

What did we learn? Not all allowed mechanics are good mechanics and should be changed into something good.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:38 PM by Noashakra

Dude they were designed to switch by hand, and have the poison reapplied.
Delete the /switch, go back to allow dot to hit with each hit (because it was the payoff), and see the meltdown of the people on forums.
(and also see all the tanks who have to switch shield like the merc/BM complain)

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:48 PM by Astaa

I have fought a few more equal RR assassins RR6-RR9 me as RR5 (just dinged 6) over the last few days. and wiped the floor with most of them, some I had to use moose or IP (I only have IP2 anyway) some neither. Fought and beaten some RR10+ infs and SBs where I have had to use every last drop but won. But that's how RR works, I should struggle vs higher RR people. But still only managed 15 or so real solo fights in the last week or so, depressing.

Really struggling to get any sort of 1v1 though, so many assassins with pocket archers, or sin duos, always nice when you make one vanish in a 2v1 (Hi Nevaou) Those are the places I tend to go to as a solo visi though. Then it's adds from Hib too, some seriously persistent Hibs around.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:49 PM by Loki

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:17 PM
It's not the case on the NS, I have an average of 800killrp per kill

When did I ever SoS away from a 1v1 with you

. And your NS farmed Forest Sauvage/Snowdonia , I dont care what you say.

The real "challenge" for this server is this - have all Solo Kill stats reset, only count fully buffed level 50 solo kills and not lowbies or unbuffed 50s who dont wanna waste a combi charge while running to the Taskmaster . Then you'll see the real solo kills and not these clowns making spreadsheets to show something they don't have. Then you'll see 10k solo kills turn into 500 . Or add titles like "Cruachan Gorge Addict" or "Uppland Vanisher" instead of your precious Lone Enforcer. People who got their solo kills legit don't really care for titles anyways.

But no one asks for that, instead they ask for a title between 2k and 20k, which devs happily provide because its easy to do and they can say they're "listening" to the solo community .

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:54 PM by Loki

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:31 PM
.i had a poison bot
Was effective, Galvorne weapons with a dot-proc amd poisoned on top.
The shitstorm, oh my, what a shitstorm, poisoned weapons only allowed for assassins etcetc....

It worked here too , a certain Ranger abused it for months with no repercussions . It got fixed eventually.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:54 PM by Noashakra

Don't worry, everyone on this server know you are a liar, I don't know who you are trying to convince xD
Stats are on the herald for everyone to check for my NS.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:54 PM by Astaa

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:17 PM
It's not the case on the NS, I have an average of 800killrp per kill

My "solo in the zerg, non-assisting" ranger is on 858 per kill :p

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:56 PM by Noashakra

Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:54 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:17 PM
It's not the case on the NS, I have an average of 800killrp per kill

My "solo in the zerg, non-assisting" ranger is on 858 per kill :p

not rp / kill

kill rp / kill

I am at 1236 rp/kill otherwise...

Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:59 PM by Loki

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:54 PM
Don't worry, everyone on this server know you are a liar, i don't know who you are trying to convince xD

You have nothing to say for yourself, I mopped the floor with you countless times in fair fights even though you wouldnt sniff your own finger without IP and Purge up. **Edited by Uthred** The bottom line is you wont ever come to Uppland alone with me online, which is what I wanted anyways. Off you go !

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:00 PM by keen

Farming green ppl at xp spots then coming to forum claiming high solo kill rate and count. So classic. But also quite representative unfortunately.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:02 PM by Noashakra

keen wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:00 PM
Farming green ppl at xp spots then coming to forum claiming high solo kill rate LOL you really made my day today.

Again you have no idea about what you speak about

200 solo kills you should not speak at all. Not surprised coming from a ranger leecher / BD player.

Your ranger :
924,518 kill rps / 2660 kills = 347 kill rp per kill.
You should stay quiet

My ranger :
3,105,855 kill rps / 6331 kills = 490 kill rp per kill.
My NS :
3,516,318 kill rps / 4,815 kills = 730 kill rp per kill.

Just for the lulz :
Undacover > 5,293,195 / 7361 = 719 LMAO !!!!!!!!!!
Laeloo > 3,281,701 / 5959 = 550 !!!!!!!!
This while switching toons to have RA up. Is the circus in town ;p?

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:21 PM by DJ2000

Noashakra single-handedly derailed this Thread into oblivion.

Your behavior and arrogance is making you look bad, its to your own detriment of anything you accomplished or could append/inclose/enclose to any future discussion or statepoint. You don't act according to your Age.

He actually reminds me of those "wannabe 1st Lone Enforcer" Title Players on Uthgard that boasted and pride themselves with their HeraldStats by killing Greys in the hundreds or thousands even (back when there were any). [drastic(?) don't remember his name.]
I am pretty certain that more than 90% would lose their Title if non-Lvl50 wouldn't count....but they do. No point arguing/qq about it.

If this Thread actually goes anywhere to remotely being useful to anything or anyone, i will be amazed.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:25 PM by Loki

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:02 PM
Just for the lulz :
Undacover > 5,293,195 / 7361 = 719 LMAO !!!!!!!!!!
Laeloo > 3,281,701 / 5959 = 550 !!!!!!!!
And this guys tries to troll.

Perfectly fine with those numbers, you dont see me camping greens and then whine that someone keeps killing me

)) I set out for at least 2:1 solo kills/death ration and I got that, all your BS is white noise. You bragged how you're so casual that you named your Ranger Bluekiller and your NS Greenkiller, and now you're here to brag about solo stats - thats the biggest joke ever. I dont brag about stats and I dont talk about the "solo" community. I don't inflate my stats, I fight garbos who are camping lowbies with all RAs up but whine that I have RAs too

I fought Ifan anywhere on the map, I only saw you in Uppland and I'm pretty sure nobody fought you anywhere else. Who are you trying to fool ?

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:26 PM by Noashakra

SB, vanishes, logs skald, SOS, logs Hunter.
Sad you can't do that on forums!!!!!!!
How can you find Ifan on the map when you play only in uppland with your relic gate as a back up and where you can come back quickly with your other toon? The cake is a lie!!!!

Btw I have a 2.6 solo kill per death on my NS vs 2.58 on your SB. Your solo kill / kill ration is 0.55 when I am at 0.62.
You calling others garbo is the kettle calling the pot black. You are sad litte person :'(

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:31 PM by Loki

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:21 PM
Noashakra single-handedly derailed this Thread into oblivion.

Yeah, the dude has a very simple defense mechanism. I came here to say he has nothing behind his so-called game knowledge and also the solo community doesn't care about soloing. The real challenge is counting kills that matter, but nobody wants that because everyone exploits the system.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:35 PM by Noashakra

Loki wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:31 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:21 PM
Noashakra single-handedly derailed this Thread into oblivion.

Yeah, the dude has a very simple defense mechanism. I came here to say he has nothing behind his so-called game knowledge and also the solo community doesn't care about soloing. The real challenge is counting kills that matter, but nobody wants that because everyone exploits the system.

Imagine if there was timer to switch toons to stop people abusing their active RA!!!!

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:37 PM by Loki

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:26 PM
How can you find Ifan on the map when you play only in uppland with your relic gate as a back up and where you can come back quickly with your other toon? The cake is a lie!!!!

Obviously, you're new to the server. Ifan isn't active and yes, I fought him everywhere. I fought everyone that was anyone, since server launch to this day. If my relic gate is backup, maybe you should farm lowbies a bit further on. I never Vanished vs you because you're weak. Someone is feeding you bullsh*t info that you gladly eat up and present as a fact, because you dislike that you never stood a chance

I never fought you, then logged something else, unless you refused to fight me and emoted from the water, like a brave Greenkiller. You remember that ? Emotes stopped soon after. And soon after that, Uppland farm stopped too ... Glad you can replace those memories with stats, its better for the little sanity you have.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:41 PM by Noashakra

Loki wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:37 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:26 PM
How can you find Ifan on the map when you play only in uppland with your relic gate as a back up and where you can come back quickly with your other toon? The cake is a lie!!!!

Obviously, you're new to the server. Ifan isn't active and yes, I fought him everywhere. I fought everyone that was anyone, since server launch to this day. If my relic gate is backup, maybe you should farm lowbies a bit further on. I never Vanished vs you because you're weak. Someone is feeding you bullsh*t info that you gladly eat up and present as a fact, because you dislike that you never stood a chance I never fought you, then logged something else, unless you refused to fight me and emoted from the water, like a brave Greenkiller. You remember that ? Emotes stopped soon after. And soon after that, Uppland farm stopped too ... Glad you can replace those memories with stats, its better for the little sanity you have.

Loki Trump Jr.
You try to convince only yourself xD

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:42 PM by Loki

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:35 PM
Imagine if there was timer to switch toons to stop people abusing their active RA!!!!

Imagine if actual solo kills were counted, and not lowbies or afk people waiting to die near the taskmaster. There would be nothing left behind your big guy talk.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:43 PM by Loki

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:41 PM
You try to convince only yourself xD

Have you noticed that whenever you lose an argument, you're quickly referring to other people ? "I hate you, but so do other people sooooo ... I'm right"

Pretty juvenile.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:45 PM by Noashakra

Which arguments? The numbers are the only things that don't lie.
You are a well known liar and conspiracy theorist by the whole server. There is no point aguing with people who lie all the time.

Numbers show that you go for easier RPs than me on my NS. There are no other points to make.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:47 PM by

Uthred

Ok guys and gals, calm down. Please stop the insults and try to stay on topic without insulting anyone in here.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:48 PM by protege

Pzynom wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:23 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 5:28 PM
....
TheBigBomb has some great vids of him pulling it off against sins as well with wicked use of GTAOE to pop sins out of stealth and gobble them up. Point is, if you try and put your mind to it on any class, an assassin is very beatable.

But isn't that part of the problem? Only a select few visibles are setup for solo action, which makes it appear as though sins are incredibly strong, as you will pretty much mow down everything else.

Dont like Daoc Paper as well, but the conversation between other players went like: It's difficult because -> Reply: This is part of the prob you dont know the class, Ment has ...
Ok, if answers like that are given, then we jump on details and no a theurg will not win 99% of the time. Already the resists prevent that. Would be more like 15%.

BUT that's not the point, I agree and you came up with a valid statement.
You cannot compare the 1vs1 capabilities of a class with group potential with a dedicated 1vs1 class.
So I would not argue about Ments and Theurgs. Assassins are strong and maybe OP in 1vs1, because they are tailored for it. Certain classes can prob do the same, then you are down to the details. From a casters perspective Assassins are strong, but not too strong.My view not having a stealther.

Devs decided to establish a disadvantage for grouped Stealthers/multiple in area. Ok, then to me it's consiquent they have advatages when solo and to be freared if you walk solo.

Thanks Pzy

That is the idea of this thread! I welcome you to make an assassin on any realm and 1v1 me on my characters. If you don't believe me that a Ment or Theurg can win versus an assassin more than 15% of the time, I welcome the opportunity to 1v1 =)

Thu 10 Dec 2020 2:00 PM by protege

Loki wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:49 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:17 PM
It's not the case on the NS, I have an average of 800killrp per kill

When did I ever SoS away from a 1v1 with you . And your NS farmed Forest Sauvage/Snowdonia , I dont care what you say.

The real "challenge" for this server is this - have all Solo Kill stats reset, only count fully buffed level 50 solo kills and not lowbies or unbuffed 50s who dont wanna waste a combi charge while running to the Taskmaster . Then you'll see the real solo kills and not these clowns making spreadsheets to show something they don't have. Then you'll see 10k solo kills turn into 500 . Or add titles like "Cruachan Gorge Addict" or "Uppland Vanisher" instead of your precious Lone Enforcer. People who got their solo kills legit don't really care for titles anyways.

But no one asks for that, instead they ask for a title between 2k and 20k, which devs happily provide because its easy to do and they can say they're "listening" to the solo community .

I wouldn't mind something like that tbh!

Thu 10 Dec 2020 2:40 PM by easytoremember

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:02 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:00 PM
Farming green ppl at xp spots then coming to forum claiming high solo kill rate LOL you really made my day today.

Again you have no idea about what you speak about
200 solo kills you should not speak at all. Not surprised coming from a ranger leecher / BD player.

200 solo kills on a visi without speed is a lot

Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:01 PM by Noashakra

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 2:40 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:02 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:00 PM
Farming green ppl at xp spots then coming to forum claiming high solo kill rate LOL you really made my day today.

Again you have no idea about what you speak about
200 solo kills you should not speak at all. Not surprised coming from a ranger leecher / BD player.
200 solo kills on a visi without speed is a lot

It was on a ranger

Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:25 PM by Astaa

All this arguing could be solved with a solo weekend event

Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:31 PM by Stoertebecker

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:38 PM
Delete the /switch, go back to allow dot to hit with each hit (because it was the payoff), and see the meltdown of the people on forums.

Deal ! I could live with that. Would reduce the number of players that can switch by hand for reapply to 5 from 50.

What happened here? Oo

Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:42 PM by Freudinio

I'm curious. Those of you who are defending the power level of stealthers. Do you believe that if you jump a target with purge down (any target) that it should be a secure kill if no interference?

Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:35 PM by Noashakra

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:31 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 12:38 PM
Delete the /switch, go back to allow dot to hit with each hit (because it was the payoff), and see the meltdown of the people on forums.

Deal ! I could live with that. Would reduce the number of players that can switch by hand for reapply to 5 from 50.

What happened here? Oo

I have no problem with that myself. I am all for a more skill based game (within limits).

I'm curious. Those of you who are defending the power level of stealthers. Do you believe that if you jump a target with purge down (any target) that it should be a secure kill if no interference?

How do you know if someone has purge or not most of the time? Usually you want to avoir stunning the target in case purge is up. I don't use my evade stun on most target because of that.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:44 PM by Pzynom

protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:48 PM
That is the idea of this thread! I welcome you to make an assassin on any realm and 1v1 me on my characters. If you don't believe me that a Ment or Theurg can win versus an assassin more than 15% of the time, I welcome the opportunity to 1v1 =)

Ok, nice. I won't start with Stealthers. And yes, I doubt the 99% vs theurg, but happy to be shown the theurg 99% domination vs Assassins.
But you have a theurg?
I could try organizing a NS that would fight your theurg

?
You probably fight theurgs and have experience with that. Do you have any vids from theurgs winning vs you?

Thanks, Pzy

Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:48 PM by protege

Pzynom wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:44 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:48 PM
That is the idea of this thread! I welcome you to make an assassin on any realm and 1v1 me on my characters. If you don't believe me that a Ment or Theurg can win versus an assassin more than 15% of the time, I welcome the opportunity to 1v1 =)

Ok, nice. I won't start with Stealthers. And yes, I doubt the 99% vs theurg, but happy to be shown the theurg 99% domination vs Assassins.
But you have a theurg?
I could try organizing a NS that would fight your theurg ?
You probably fight theurgs and have experience with that. Do you have any vids from theurgs winning vs you?

Thanks, Pzy

I think I've encountered about 0 solo theurgs up to rr11 tbh.

Especially Air spec.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:50 PM by protege

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:42 PM
I'm curious. Those of you who are defending the power level of stealthers. Do you believe that if you jump a target with purge down (any target) that it should be a secure kill if no interference?

Of course it shouldn't be a sure kill.. and it really isn't.

Many solo specced characters can beat assassins without purge.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:50 PM by Pzynom

protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:48 PM
Pzynom wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:44 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:48 PM
That is the idea of this thread! I welcome you to make an assassin on any realm and 1v1 me on my characters. If you don't believe me that a Ment or Theurg can win versus an assassin more than 15% of the time, I welcome the opportunity to 1v1 =)

Ok, nice. I won't start with Stealthers. And yes, I doubt the 99% vs theurg, but happy to be shown the theurg 99% domination vs Assassins.
But you have a theurg?
I could try organizing a NS that would fight your theurg ?
You probably fight theurgs and have experience with that. Do you have any vids from theurgs winning vs you?

Thanks, Pzy

I think I've encountered about 0 solo theurgs up to rr11 tbh.

Especially Air spec.

Hi

And if you have a theurg. Would you mind doing some 1vs1 vs Assassins and share it? Would be the easiest way to prove your point.
As a side note, I still don't think Assassins are too strong, but I think theurg is the wrong pick

Any Moc-Caster will prob kill an Assassin. If the caster has Ichor or directly castable snare (you are in close combat, an Ice pet wont cast)/disease as well, but you will struggle with mezz+root because of 10% resists and fixed cast time for QC with 2 secs (which you will have twice)

Thu 10 Dec 2020 5:00 PM by protege

Pzynom wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:50 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:48 PM
Pzynom wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:44 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 1:48 PM
That is the idea of this thread! I welcome you to make an assassin on any realm and 1v1 me on my characters. If you don't believe me that a Ment or Theurg can win versus an assassin more than 15% of the time, I welcome the opportunity to 1v1 =)

Ok, nice. I won't start with Stealthers. And yes, I doubt the 99% vs theurg, but happy to be shown the theurg 99% domination vs Assassins.
But you have a theurg?
I could try organizing a NS that would fight your theurg ?
You probably fight theurgs and have experience with that. Do you have any vids from theurgs winning vs you?

Thanks, Pzy

I think I've encountered about 0 solo theurgs up to rr11 tbh.

Especially Air spec.

Hi

And if you have a theurg. Would you mind doing some 1vs1 vs Assassins and share it? Would be the easiest way to prove your point.
As a side note, I still don't think Assassins are too strong, but I think theurg is the wrong pick

Any Moc-Caster will prob kill an Assassin. If the caster has Ichor or directly castable snare (you are in close combat, an Ice pet wont cast)/disease as well, but you will struggle with mezz+root because of 10% resists and fixed cast time for QC with 2 secs (which you will have twice)

I will respec my theurg to air once i have people willing to fight my theurg. I'm not gonna run around solo on a theurg tbf.. I have 0 interest in doing so =)

Thu 10 Dec 2020 5:29 PM by Pzynom

protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 5:00 PM
I will respec my theurg to air once i have people willing to fight my theurg. I'm not gonna run around solo on a theurg tbf.. I have 0 interest in doing so =)

Sure!
Will see who I find

Any brave volunteer NS around

?

Thu 10 Dec 2020 7:56 PM by Stoertebecker

protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:50 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:42 PM
I'm curious. Those of you who are defending the power level of stealthers. Do you believe that if you jump a target with purge down (any target) that it should be a secure kill if no interference?

Of course it shouldn't be a sure kill.. and it really isn't.
Many solo specced characters can beat assassins without purge.

I have no problems surviving a stun on my hunter, it`s not the weapon damage or the dots that kills the toon, it`s the disease and reapply after purge in most cases.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 9:38 PM by The Skies Asunder

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 7:56 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:50 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:42 PM
I'm curious. Those of you who are defending the power level of stealthers. Do you believe that if you jump a target with purge down (any target) that it should be a secure kill if no interference?

Of course it shouldn't be a sure kill.. and it really isn't.
Many solo specced characters can beat assassins without purge.

I have no problems surviving a stun on my hunter, it`s not the weapon damage or the dots that kills the toon, it`s the disease and reapply after purge in most cases.

lol, wut?

Thu 10 Dec 2020 9:59 PM by darkstar00

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 9:38 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 7:56 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:50 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:42 PM
I'm curious. Those of you who are defending the power level of stealthers. Do you believe that if you jump a target with purge down (any target) that it should be a secure kill if no interference?

Of course it shouldn't be a sure kill.. and it really isn't.
Many solo specced characters can beat assassins without purge.

I have no problems surviving a stun on my hunter, it`s not the weapon damage or the dots that kills the toon, it`s the disease and reapply after purge in most cases.

lol, wut?

That's part of being a smart assassin... reapplying poisons after a purge. Kind of dumb not to.

Thu 10 Dec 2020 10:11 PM by Stoertebecker

darkstar00 wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 9:59 PM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 9:38 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 7:56 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 4:50 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Dec 2020 3:42 PM
I'm curious. Those of you who are defending the power level of stealthers. Do you believe that if you jump a target with purge down (any target) that it should be a secure kill if no interference?

Of course it shouldn't be a sure kill.. and it really isn't.
Many solo specced characters can beat assassins without purge.

I have no problems surviving a stun on my hunter, it`s not the weapon damage or the dots that kills the toon, it`s the disease and reapply after purge in most cases.

lol, wut?

That's part of being a smart assassin... reapplying poisons after a purge. Kind of dumb not to.

Yep, sure

Wouldn`t be a problem without that.

Sun 13 Dec 2020 12:50 PM by Siouxsie

All this e-peen on solo kills. Noashakra, you've got serious insecurity issues.
It's a lot easier to get solo kills on a hib or alb stealther than a mid. Know why?

Mids often run out solo. I hardly ever see an Alb or Hib solo unless they are:
1. Exping (and then, rarely in frontiers anyway)
2. Very high RR (people like Eriel, Brainstorm, Therabbin, etc)

Most albs and hibs are in groups. Most alb and hib stealthers are almost always grouped (minst, infi, scout.. or infI + scout), never more than 2 rangers and a NS.

Perhaps there is some sooper sikrit place all you soloers go to get your 'solo kills'.
The days of farming solo kills because albs and hibs were low realm rank and barely templated is long gone .. that stopped over a year ago.
Now, the players still playing alb and hib are either high RR or zerging, or they are grouped together.

So yeah.. nice try waving around the stupid "solo kills" e-peen. I dare Noashakra to roll a hunter and try soloing on it nowadays.

Sun 13 Dec 2020 2:59 PM by Noashakra

Mids often run out solo.

Maybe you should try to solo once in a while, and not only on mid.
Crau is the least worst of the 3 bridges to find solo action, alb being the worst.

33 mids in the top 100 solo kills last week, it's pretty even. The zerg on flags is the same on the three realms, don't worry mid also have groups of 3+ hunters.

Not all opinions are the same. I reminded those people my solo kills to show that I have at least 10x the experience of the other guy (on a NS and also facing sins on a melee ranger). If I stopped the ranger, it's not because the asn were OP, but because the ranger was underperforming vs most classes.

If you don't play solo, what is the point of giving your opinion about what is balanced or not?

We are still waiting for people to take on Beaver offer

Tue 15 Dec 2020 10:39 AM by inoeth

tbh after you cheesed my rr3 arms with snare venom + throwing knives with your at that point rr9 SB i dont have an interest to fight any of your toons anymore...

Tue 15 Dec 2020 11:47 AM by Stoertebecker

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Dec 2020 10:39 AM
tbh after you cheesed my rr3 arms with snare venom + throwing knives with your at that point rr9 SB i dont have an interest to fight any of your toons anymore...

You are really really....nasty

Tue 15 Dec 2020 2:10 PM by protege

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Dec 2020 10:39 AM
tbh after you cheesed my rr3 arms with snare venom + throwing knives with your at that point rr9 SB i dont have an interest to fight any of your toons anymore...

rr9 SB can't win vs a rr3 arms without cheese kiting!

ASSASSINS ARE OP!

Tue 15 Dec 2020 2:16 PM by protege

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Dec 2020 12:50 PM
All this e-peen on solo kills. Noashakra, you've got serious insecurity issues.
It's a lot easier to get solo kills on a hib or alb stealther than a mid. Know why?

MIDS OFTEN RUN OUT SOLO. I hardly ever see an Alb or Hib solo unless they are:
1. Exping (and then, rarely in frontiers anyway)
2. Very high RR (people like Eriel, Brainstorm, Therabbin, etc)

Most albs and hibs are in groups. Most alb and hib stealthers are almost always grouped (minst, infi, scout.. or infI + scout), never more than 2 rangers and a NS.

Perhaps there is some sooper sikrit place all you soloers go to get your 'solo kills'.
The days of farming solo kills because albs and hibs were low realm rank and barely templated is long gone .. that stopped over a year ago.
Now, the players still playing alb and hib are either high RR or zerging, or they are grouped together.

So yeah.. nice try waving around the stupid "solo kills" e-peen. I dare Noashakra to roll a hunter and try soloing on it nowadays.

LOL

Tue 15 Dec 2020 5:34 PM by Stoertebecker

protege wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Dec 2020 2:16 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Dec 2020 12:50 PM
All this e-peen on solo kills. Noashakra, you've got serious insecurity issues.
It's a lot easier to get solo kills on a hib or alb stealther than a mid. Know why?

MIDS OFTEN RUN OUT SOLO. I hardly ever see an Alb or Hib solo unless they are:
1. Exping (and then, rarely in frontiers anyway)
2. Very high RR (people like Eriel, Brainstorm, Therabbin, etc)

Most albs and hibs are in groups. Most alb and hib stealthers are almost always grouped (minst, infi, scout.. or infI + scout), never more than 2 rangers and a NS.

Perhaps there is some sooper sikrit place all you soloers go to get your 'solo kills'.
The days of farming solo kills because albs and hibs were low realm rank and barely templated is long gone .. that stopped over a year ago.
Now, the players still playing alb and hib are either high RR or zerging, or they are grouped together.

So yeah.. nice try waving around the stupid "solo kills" e-peen. I dare Noashakra to roll a hunter and try soloing on it nowadays.

LOL

I wouldn`t laugh about the solo part. The numbers that are running solo within the task zone or leveling in the fz are really not low in midgard.
Same for keep defense, mids don`t group. 20 ppl solo in a keep under siege, not even the hunters group up.

But complaing bout that they don`t get rezzed or get something down...

So many mids standing in Godrborg just waiting for the task tick, running again to the task zone just for getting killed and waiting again in Godrborg.
Playing the game is somehow different, not riding a boat for 5 minutes and then afking the next 25. Don`t know if it`s fun for them or if they`re just bored to death.

Tue 15 Dec 2020 11:13 PM by gotwqqd

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Dec 2020 5:34 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Dec 2020 2:16 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Dec 2020 12:50 PM
All this e-peen on solo kills. Noashakra, you've got serious insecurity issues.
It's a lot easier to get solo kills on a hib or alb stealther than a mid. Know why?

MIDS OFTEN RUN OUT SOLO. I hardly ever see an Alb or Hib solo unless they are:
1. Exping (and then, rarely in frontiers anyway)
2. Very high RR (people like Eriel, Brainstorm, Therabbin, etc)

Most albs and hibs are in groups. Most alb and hib stealthers are almost always grouped (minst, infi, scout.. or infI + scout), never more than 2 rangers and a NS.

Perhaps there is some sooper sikrit place all you soloers go to get your 'solo kills'.
The days of farming solo kills because albs and hibs were low realm rank and barely templated is long gone .. that stopped over a year ago.
Now, the players still playing alb and hib are either high RR or zerging, or they are grouped together.

So yeah.. nice try waving around the stupid "solo kills" e-peen. I dare Noashakra to roll a hunter and try soloing on it nowadays.

LOL

I wouldn`t laugh about the solo part. The numbers that are running solo within the task zone or leveling in the fz are really not low in midgard.
Same for keep defense, mids don`t group. 20 ppl solo in a keep under siege, not even the hunters group up.

But complaing bout that they don`t get rezzed or get something down...

So many mids standing in Godrborg just waiting for the task tick, running again to the task zone just for getting killed and waiting again in Godrborg.
Playing the game is somehow different, not riding a boat for 5 minutes and then afking the next 25. Don`t know if it`s fun for them or if they`re just bored to death.

I play all realms about equally....last paragraph here is dead on. Mids, by far, have the most afk in the rvr villages.

Wed 16 Dec 2020 2:18 AM by Stoertebecker

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Dec 2020 11:13 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Dec 2020 5:34 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Dec 2020 2:16 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Dec 2020 12:50 PM
All this e-peen on solo kills. Noashakra, you've got serious insecurity issues.
It's a lot easier to get solo kills on a hib or alb stealther than a mid. Know why?

MIDS OFTEN RUN OUT SOLO. I hardly ever see an Alb or Hib solo unless they are:
1. Exping (and then, rarely in frontiers anyway)
2. Very high RR (people like Eriel, Brainstorm, Therabbin, etc)

Most albs and hibs are in groups. Most alb and hib stealthers are almost always grouped (minst, infi, scout.. or infI + scout), never more than 2 rangers and a NS.

Perhaps there is some sooper sikrit place all you soloers go to get your 'solo kills'.
The days of farming solo kills because albs and hibs were low realm rank and barely templated is long gone .. that stopped over a year ago.
Now, the players still playing alb and hib are either high RR or zerging, or they are grouped together.

So yeah.. nice try waving around the stupid "solo kills" e-peen. I dare Noashakra to roll a hunter and try soloing on it nowadays.

LOL

I wouldn`t laugh about the solo part. The numbers that are running solo within the task zone or leveling in the fz are really not low in midgard.
Same for keep defense, mids don`t group. 20 ppl solo in a keep under siege, not even the hunters group up.

But complaing bout that they don`t get rezzed or get something down...

So many mids standing in Godrborg just waiting for the task tick, running again to the task zone just for getting killed and waiting again in Godrborg.
Playing the game is somehow different, not riding a boat for 5 minutes and then afking the next 25. Don`t know if it`s fun for them or if they`re just bored to death.
I play all realms about equally....last paragraph here is dead on. Mids, by far, have the most afk in the rvr villages.

And they are not searching for a group, if you ask them the answer is always * Nah, just task-afk*. I wouldn`t even log in if i don`t have time to play.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:51 PM by Hedien

Just a simple video:
Purgeless warrior vs infil.

https://gfycat.com/fr/unnaturaljoyousgrayling

Nah - the warrior clicks too much, he is a noob, rng worked for the infil, gitgud. The infil finished at 60%+ after BS.
@Beaver: Are you going to acknowledge this incident? Or just shrug it off, because the real intent of this whole thread is to dismiss all claim against assassins because you Noa/Tani are playing assassin. Or you are going to show off - yes on my rr1 warrior untemped, with only anytime I kill 11L NS. Right...

I can relate to this video, because I have been in countless similar situations. You don't have IP/Purge up, you simply do not stand a chance.

Sat/Faturday.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:02 PM by Noashakra

rr5 warrior with purge down vs rr8 inf. I fail to see the problem.
I have no chance in a sin fight if purge down too if I get stunned.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:06 PM by Hedien

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:08 PM by Hedien

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:02 PM
rr5 warrior with purge down vs rr8 inf. I fail to see the problem.
I have no chance in a sin fight if purge down too if I get stunned.

With reapplication of poison, purge does not help. only combination with ip, heal pot, heart does.
In this situation, tell me how purge would have saved him. It wouldn't.

This is what the problem is: no opportunity at all.
Beaver with his 1L war without IP would lose this fight against this (in my opinion) very average infil. He is just of bad faith.

Sat/Faturday.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:09 PM by Noashakra

ok my bad I didn't see he went to fast in the ranks.

With reapplication of poison, purge does not help. only combination with ip, heal pot, heart does.
In this situation, tell me how purge would have saved him. It wouldn't.

You purge and it will up your defens, you block parry more. Your pots/legion will also heal you for more because of disease. The inf will have a hard time reapplying poisons. I died many times because it took me 2/3 hits to pass the debuff ws/c and then the dot.
That's why purge 4/5 is a must for solo visi.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:19 PM by Faust01

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:02 PM
rr5 warrior with purge down vs rr8 inf. I fail to see the problem.
I have no chance in a sin fight if purge down too if I get stunned.

Hi, Xarriur here.

I was rr8 in that video. Also, i don't think having purge in that particular situation would have helped me. It may have even caused more harm than good to purge without using IP.
I'm obviously not the best player, and i obviously do a shitload of mistakes. But still, taking that into account, i doubt there was so much room for improvement in what happen in that video to turn the fight around.
As a melee solo fighter, what i fear the most is not mercenary, champion, reaver, armsman but assassins. They are unforgiving, dealing the most DPS by far compared to any other melee class.
Also, purge alone is almost harmful to use against them leavin less rooms for counterplays. And even fights that you somehow do better, they often have that option to just vanish.
Again , i'm not as good player as any of you for sure, but having said that, i don't think that my primary fear as a tank should be sins.
I'm at a point where i specced my warrior almost exclusively to play against stealther with mastery of parry7, mastery of blocking 5 and avoidance of magic 5 with 50/42/41 and still manage to often get killed in less that 30 like in that video.

If stealther are supposed to be a tank target, well that's not the case because i do better versus any other melee class. I'd rather fight Yarna/Lhei/Drnkstain/Whipcrack than high RR stealther.

That's however not the case for low rr stealther that i admit are fairly easy to beat. It make me think that maybe assassins scales too much with ranks. Or that most low rr stealther are not experienced enough to use advanced mechanics that allow sins to drop me that quickly.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:28 PM by Blitze

Wow, yea, I wouldn’t have guessed warriors fear assassins more than other visi solo melees. Crazy.

(Your solo experience must be grim as, as assas are so common that I bet that when you aren’t riding boats between grps ganking ya; your most likely next fight will be an assa)

The silver lining is that there are no visible casters which are the classes warriors always lose to!

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:35 PM by Noashakra

You are supposed to purge when you are low life (to force the asn to wait for his stun) and use your pot+legion at this time.

And if you speak about tanks, I can tell you the difference between yarna and whipcrack btw, the first I have 0% win rate, the 2nd is an easy target that I will jump and kill most of the time.

I am going to log my warrior and make videos this week, or my BM, both are 5/6L.

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:48 PM by Eckso

Faust01 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:19 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:02 PM
rr5 warrior with purge down vs rr8 inf. I fail to see the problem.
I have no chance in a sin fight if purge down too if I get stunned.

Hi, Xarriur here.

I was rr8 in that video. Also, i don't think having purge in that particular situation would have helped me. It may have even caused more harm than good to purge without using IP.
I'm obviously not the best player, and i obviously do a shitload of mistakes. But still, taking that into account, i doubt there was so much room for improvement in what happen in that video to turn the fight around.
As a melee solo fighter, what i fear the most is not mercenary, champion, reaver, armsman but assassins. They are unforgiving, dealing the most DPS by far compared to any other melee class.
Also, purge alone is almost harmful to use against them leavin less rooms for counterplays. And even fights that you somehow do better, they often have that option to just vanish.
Again , i'm not as good player as any of you for sure, but having said that, i don't think that my primary fear as a tank should be sins.
I'm at a point where i specced my warrior almost exclusively to play against stealther with mastery of parry7, mastery of blocking 5 and avoidance of magic 5 with 50/42/41 and still manage to often get killed in less that 30 like in that video.

If stealther are supposed to be a tank target, well that's not the case because i do better versus any other melee class. I'd rather fight Yarna/Lhei/Drnkstain/Whipcrack than high RR stealther.

That's however not the case for low rr stealther that i admit are fairly easy to beat. It make me think that maybe assassins scales too much with ranks. Or that most low rr stealther are not experienced enough to use advanced mechanics that allow sins to drop me that quickly.

I appreciate your honesty Xarriur!

And I think you are absolutely correct, classes scale with rank. Not every engage is going to be a guaranteed win, or loss due to active timers and RNG. This entire thread is one big eye roll to me.

If the theme is Assassins do damage! And then they get high rank they do a lot of damage! Yes that is the case, but its also the case for any class in this game.

People please, spend less time asking for nerfs (especially when assassins are already in a nerfed state on Phoenix) and spend more time learning your class.

Cheers
-Exo

Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:56 PM by darkstar00

Faust01 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:19 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:02 PM
rr5 warrior with purge down vs rr8 inf. I fail to see the problem.
I have no chance in a sin fight if purge down too if I get stunned.

Hi, Xarriur here.

I was rr8 in that video. Also, i don't think having purge in that particular situation would have helped me. It may have even caused more harm than good to purge without using IP.
I'm obviously not the best player, and i obviously do a shitload of mistakes. But still, taking that into account, i doubt there was so much room for improvement in what happen in that video to turn the fight around.
As a melee solo fighter, what i fear the most is not mercenary, champion, reaver, armsman but assassins. They are unforgiving, dealing the most DPS by far compared to any other melee class.
Also, purge alone is almost harmful to use against them leavin less rooms for counterplays. And even fights that you somehow do better, they often have that option to just vanish.
Again , i'm not as good player as any of you for sure, but having said that, i don't think that my primary fear as a tank should be sins.
I'm at a point where i specced my warrior almost exclusively to play against stealther with mastery of parry7, mastery of blocking 5 and avoidance of magic 5 with 50/42/41 and still manage to often get killed in less that 30 like in that video.

If stealther are supposed to be a tank target, well that's not the case because i do better versus any other melee class. I'd rather fight Yarna/Lhei/Drnkstain/Whipcrack than high RR stealther.

That's however not the case for low rr stealther that i admit are fairly easy to beat. It make me think that maybe assassins scales too much with ranks. Or that most low rr stealther are not experienced enough to use advanced mechanics that allow sins to drop me that quickly.

If that is your spec there is no way I'd kill you on my rr7 NS... you would block/parry me so often that your damage would eventually out-weigh mine.

Also as a bladeshade, my ws is lower and blades aren't as good against tanks as pierce.

The other key word here is "high rr stealther". Which yes, are quite strong. And a lot of NS are pierce spec these days which has advantage to the tank classes... couple that with high RR and yeah gonna be a tough fight, as it should.

Nothing really mind boggling hear I agree.

Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:16 PM by cantgetright006

Faust01 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:19 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:02 PM
rr5 warrior with purge down vs rr8 inf. I fail to see the problem.
I have no chance in a sin fight if purge down too if I get stunned.

Hi, Xarriur here.

I was rr8 in that video. Also, i don't think having purge in that particular situation would have helped me. It may have even caused more harm than good to purge without using IP.
I'm obviously not the best player, and i obviously do a shitload of mistakes. But still, taking that into account, i doubt there was so much room for improvement in what happen in that video to turn the fight around.
As a melee solo fighter, what i fear the most is not mercenary, champion, reaver, armsman but assassins. They are unforgiving, dealing the most DPS by far compared to any other melee class.
Also, purge alone is almost harmful to use against them leavin less rooms for counterplays. And even fights that you somehow do better, they often have that option to just vanish.
Again , i'm not as good player as any of you for sure, but having said that, i don't think that my primary fear as a tank should be sins.
I'm at a point where i specced my warrior almost exclusively to play against stealther with mastery of parry7, mastery of blocking 5 and avoidance of magic 5 with 50/42/41 and still manage to often get killed in less that 30 like in that video.

If stealther are supposed to be a tank target, well that's not the case because i do better versus any other melee class. I'd rather fight Yarna/Lhei/Drnkstain/Whipcrack than high RR stealther.

That's however not the case for low rr stealther that i admit are fairly easy to beat. It make me think that maybe assassins scales too much with ranks. Or that most low rr stealther are not experienced enough to use advanced mechanics that allow sins to drop me that quickly.

I may be new to phoenix, but I am a long time sin player on live. My first question is celerity a thing on phoenix and if it is why aren't you using it? If it's not disregard the first question because I am new to shard. Second question is the most important one. Why are you not using crush weapons? It just doesn't make any sense to me for you not to be if you have issues with sins! All sins no matter the realm are weak to heat dmg and crush dmg. Leggies aren't a thing here I think since they are TOA. But I know good and well hammers are a thing for Mids, Albs, and Dem Hibbies! You are the one saying that you fear sins yet don't use crush weapons! You are gimping yourself before the fight even starts, taking a bs and then complaining after you lose. Hell at least make him reapply posions! You should lose to any competent sin if you're using slash and allowing his poisons to just tick away on you. Sins are already in a nerfed state from what I seen here. So if you are losing to them the problem is on your end.

Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:22 PM by DarkDavion

cantgetright006 wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:16 PM
Faust01 wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:19 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 5:02 PM
rr5 warrior with purge down vs rr8 inf. I fail to see the problem.
I have no chance in a sin fight if purge down too if I get stunned.

Hi, Xarriur here.

I was rr8 in that video. Also, i don't think having purge in that particular situation would have helped me. It may have even caused more harm than good to purge without using IP.
I'm obviously not the best player, and i obviously do a shitload of mistakes. But still, taking that into account, i doubt there was so much room for improvement in what happen in that video to turn the fight around.
As a melee solo fighter, what i fear the most is not mercenary, champion, reaver, armsman but assassins. They are unforgiving, dealing the most DPS by far compared to any other melee class.
Also, purge alone is almost harmful to use against them leavin less rooms for counterplays. And even fights that you somehow do better, they often have that option to just vanish.
Again , i'm not as good player as any of you for sure, but having said that, i don't think that my primary fear as a tank should be sins.
I'm at a point where i specced my warrior almost exclusively to play against stealther with mastery of parry7, mastery of blocking 5 and avoidance of magic 5 with 50/42/41 and still manage to often get killed in less that 30 like in that video.

If stealther are supposed to be a tank target, well that's not the case because i do better versus any other melee class. I'd rather fight Yarna/Lhei/Drnkstain/Whipcrack than high RR stealther.

That's however not the case for low rr stealther that i admit are fairly easy to beat. It make me think that maybe assassins scales too much with ranks. Or that most low rr stealther are not experienced enough to use advanced mechanics that allow sins to drop me that quickly.
I may be new to phoenix, but I am a long time sin player on live. My first question is celerity a thing on phoenix and if it is why aren't you using it? If it's not disregard the first question because I am new to shard. Second question is the most important one. Why are you not using crush weapons? It just doesn't make any sense to me for you not to be if you have issues with sins! All sins no matter the realm are weak to heat dmg and crush dmg. Leggies aren't a thing here I think since they are TOA. But I know good and well hammers are a thing for Mids, Albs, and Dem Hibbies! You are the one saying that you fear sins yet don't use crush weapons! You are gimping yourself before the fight even starts, taking a bs and then complaining after you lose. Hell at least make him reapply posions! You should lose to any competent sin if you're using slash and allowing his poisons to just tick away on you. Sins are already in a nerfed state from what I seen here. So if you are losing to them the problem is on your end.

https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/armor-resist-tables looks like shadowblades are weak to slash..and here on Phoenix the advantage of choosing the right dmg type is just 5% iirc..

Thu 24 Dec 2020 6:34 PM by Noashakra

DarkDavion wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Dec 2020 3:22 PM
https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/armor-resist-tables looks like shadowblades are weak to slash..and here on Phoenix the advantage of choosing the right dmg type is just 5% iirc..

He is a warrior, crush has bonus on NS SB and Ranger.
NS and ranger are resistant to slash and inf is neutral.

Thu 24 Dec 2020 11:38 PM by Saroi

Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:51 PM
Just a simple video:
Purgeless warrior vs infil.

https://gfycat.com/fr/unnaturaljoyousgrayling

Nah - the warrior clicks too much, he is a noob, rng worked for the infil, gitgud. The infil finished at 60%+ after BS.
@Beaver: Are you going to acknowledge this incident? Or just shrug it off, because the real intent of this whole thread is to dismiss all claim against assassins because you Noa/Tani are playing assassin. Or you are going to show off - yes on my rr1 warrior untemped, with only anytime I kill 11L NS. Right...

I can relate to this video, because I have been in countless similar situations. You don't have IP/Purge up, you simply do not stand a chance.

Sat/Faturday.

Well after watching this Video there are some things that worked in the Sins favour. Backstab and he did get an offhand hit, no resist and also had a weapon proc(dot bypassing armor right from the beginning).

Warrior is sword, which in generell isn't the best option because of weaker procs. He had no ASR on Inf, everytime he did use reinforcement(lv 21 after parry), he did not click on Rush (lv 29 follow up with ASR). The switch between 1h and 2h wasn't really good too. There were times he had 2h too long(Inf got 2 attack rounds) and onetime he had 1h/schild on and attacked and then switch to 2h and waited (Inf got an attack off in that time).

With 50 Sword your best style is Ragnarok so there should have been a walkthrough to get it off for the dmg and the 30% ASR, especially if you don't use Rush. In this case the fight would have not gone the way it did. This is not any Sins fault. If people spec into certain lines and then do not use their "op" abilities, then tough luck.

So yeah, it wasn't really the best performance from the Warrior.

The only thing I can again agree on in terms of Sins, is that this video shows that the change from PA/Backstab hitting after ws/con poison is bad. One could argue about PA dmg but Backstab surely should never do damage to a tank and because of the low stun for stun immunity be prioritized over PA.

Edit: After looking at the slam scene there is also some room for improvement here. First, he is using dragon large shield. It is not the fastest shield so you are losing important seconds after slam. Second if you know you are going to stun, you need to walk earlier so when you slam you are basically standing inside the enemy so you do not lose important time to attack him from behind. Using one of those, if best both would have guaranteed the Ragnarok attack he tried but didn't get off because of purge and too much time wasted.

Fri 25 Dec 2020 12:50 AM by Taniquetil

Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:51 PM
Just a simple video:
Purgeless warrior vs infil.

https://gfycat.com/fr/unnaturaljoyousgrayling

Nah - the warrior clicks too much, he is a noob, rng worked for the infil, gitgud. The infil finished at 60%+ after BS.
@Beaver: Are you going to acknowledge this incident? Or just shrug it off, because the real intent of this whole thread is to dismiss all claim against assassins because you Noa/Tani are playing assassin. Or you are going to show off - yes on my rr1 warrior untemped, with only anytime I kill 11L NS. Right...

I can relate to this video, because I have been in countless similar situations. You don't have IP/Purge up, you simply do not stand a chance.

Sat/Faturday.

What Yarna said. So much room for improvement for the warrior here,

Shield choice
Use of styles to help the warrior, currently far below potential, as far as can be seen no ASR was applied.
Use of /switch
Timing strikes between assassin blows
Instant slam vs a high rr sin, genuinely a dumb move, you know sins spec P4 or 5, plan for it.
Fails to queue correct styles a lot, still queues a rear style despite the sin facing him for a swing
Didnt use any heal pots or offensive charges as far as can be seen, even manually charging an ablative mid fight without purge is preferable to not using a single pot.
Cant critique weapon choice or weapon proc much but given the rest i’d wager theres room for improvement.
Honestly sword is probably also the weakest of the 3 choices for a warrior, I actually really like Axe for the 34% and the 1part anytime asr, hammer is usually seen as optimal though, options on the reactionary 2s stun, use of ASR, and side styles.
Really wanna go the extra mile, fighting a sin? Swap your chest piece to an abla/haste/DA proc instead of heal, it’ll serve you better too.

Given the visible skillgap between the sin and the tank here its also dishonest to ask for this to be used as a frame of reference by which balance decisions are made.

Not here to lie to you Faturday, sins can be beaten by tanks pretty easily, beaver has quickly demonstrated it on a RR2. youve also been offered help to prove/improve/learn from.

Essentially that offer was made to help improve your gameplay and or optimise your 1v1 decision making, end result being you become a tougher opponent, which is great fun for everyone. The concern is, with a nerf, attacking a well played tank would be a 0% win rate, at which point no one would attack tanks alone, which is then less fun for everyone, and at the end, not what you want.

Anyway, happy Xmas, have a good one

Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:05 AM by protege

Best specs for solo warriors = Axe and Hammer.

Axe = double DoT (shield and dragonmight) + 34% ASR side style.

Hammer = Double DoT (crafted mainhand and Dragon (?) Shield + 34% ASR off the parry chain which lands frequently.

Shall I enlighten you more, Faturday?

Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:31 AM by Freudinio

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 12:50 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:51 PM
Just a simple video:
Purgeless warrior vs infil.

https://gfycat.com/fr/unnaturaljoyousgrayling

Nah - the warrior clicks too much, he is a noob, rng worked for the infil, gitgud. The infil finished at 60%+ after BS.
@Beaver: Are you going to acknowledge this incident? Or just shrug it off, because the real intent of this whole thread is to dismiss all claim against assassins because you Noa/Tani are playing assassin. Or you are going to show off - yes on my rr1 warrior untemped, with only anytime I kill 11L NS. Right...

I can relate to this video, because I have been in countless similar situations. You don't have IP/Purge up, you simply do not stand a chance.

Sat/Faturday.

What Yarna said. So much room for improvement for the warrior here,

Shield choice
Use of styles to help the warrior, currently far below potential, as far as can be seen no ASR was applied.
Use of /switch
Timing strikes between assassin blows
Instant slam vs a high rr sin, genuinely a dumb move, you know sins spec P4 or 5, plan for it.
Fails to queue correct styles a lot, still queues a rear style despite the sin facing him for a swing
Didnt use any heal pots or offensive charges as far as can be seen, even manually charging an ablative mid fight without purge is preferable to not using a single pot.
Cant critique weapon choice or weapon proc much but given the rest i’d wager theres room for improvement.
Honestly sword is probably also the weakest of the 3 choices for a warrior, I actually really like Axe for the 34% and the 1part anytime asr, hammer is usually seen as optimal though, options on the reactionary 2s stun, use of ASR, and side styles.
Really wanna go the extra mile, fighting a sin? Swap your chest piece to an abla/haste/DA proc instead of heal, it’ll serve you better too.

Given the visible skillgap between the sin and the tank here its also dishonest to ask for this to be used as a frame of reference by which balance decisions are made.

Not here to lie to you Faturday, sins can be beaten by tanks pretty easily, beaver has quickly demonstrated it on a RR2. youve also been offered help to prove/improve/learn from.

Essentially that offer was made to help improve your gameplay and or optimise your 1v1 decision making, end result being you become a tougher opponent, which is great fun for everyone. The concern is, with a nerf, attacking a well played tank would be a 0% win rate, at which point no one would attack tanks alone, which is then less fun for everyone, and at the end, not what you want.

Anyway, happy Xmas, have a good one

So a heavy tank needs to pretty much play perfectly and probably also have to go the extra mile, to beat an assassin 1v1?

Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:44 AM by protege

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:31 AM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 12:50 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:51 PM
Just a simple video:
Purgeless warrior vs infil.

https://gfycat.com/fr/unnaturaljoyousgrayling

Nah - the warrior clicks too much, he is a noob, rng worked for the infil, gitgud. The infil finished at 60%+ after BS.
@Beaver: Are you going to acknowledge this incident? Or just shrug it off, because the real intent of this whole thread is to dismiss all claim against assassins because you Noa/Tani are playing assassin. Or you are going to show off - yes on my rr1 warrior untemped, with only anytime I kill 11L NS. Right...

I can relate to this video, because I have been in countless similar situations. You don't have IP/Purge up, you simply do not stand a chance.

Sat/Faturday.

What Yarna said. So much room for improvement for the warrior here,

Shield choice
Use of styles to help the warrior, currently far below potential, as far as can be seen no ASR was applied.
Use of /switch
Timing strikes between assassin blows
Instant slam vs a high rr sin, genuinely a dumb move, you know sins spec P4 or 5, plan for it.
Fails to queue correct styles a lot, still queues a rear style despite the sin facing him for a swing
Didnt use any heal pots or offensive charges as far as can be seen, even manually charging an ablative mid fight without purge is preferable to not using a single pot.
Cant critique weapon choice or weapon proc much but given the rest i’d wager theres room for improvement.
Honestly sword is probably also the weakest of the 3 choices for a warrior, I actually really like Axe for the 34% and the 1part anytime asr, hammer is usually seen as optimal though, options on the reactionary 2s stun, use of ASR, and side styles.
Really wanna go the extra mile, fighting a sin? Swap your chest piece to an abla/haste/DA proc instead of heal, it’ll serve you better too.

Given the visible skillgap between the sin and the tank here its also dishonest to ask for this to be used as a frame of reference by which balance decisions are made.

Not here to lie to you Faturday, sins can be beaten by tanks pretty easily, beaver has quickly demonstrated it on a RR2. youve also been offered help to prove/improve/learn from.

Essentially that offer was made to help improve your gameplay and or optimise your 1v1 decision making, end result being you become a tougher opponent, which is great fun for everyone. The concern is, with a nerf, attacking a well played tank would be a 0% win rate, at which point no one would attack tanks alone, which is then less fun for everyone, and at the end, not what you want.

Anyway, happy Xmas, have a good one

So a heavy tank needs to pretty much play perfectly and probably also have to go the extra mile, to beat an assassin 1v1?

Watch my video

Also, just imagine if i were rr6+. No assassin would even pop me, guaranteed.

Fri 25 Dec 2020 9:14 AM by Taniquetil

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:31 AM
So a heavy tank needs to pretty much play perfectly and probably also have to go the extra mile, to beat an assassin 1v1?

Perfectly? No? Better than what was demonstrated. Yes. Do I think that’s unreasonable? No.

Why are you asking to balance classes between two people with a visibly large skillgap? (Not sure I have any critique for the assassin on that fight).

Classes should be balanced on an equal skill level, which strong tanks, and strong sins are all telling you it currently is balanced well in that regard.

Those assassins youre fighting against are themselves going the extra mile to attempt to play pretty much perfectly already. Use that as motivation to improve rather than crying nerf.

A well played tank at middling rr is pretty much unbeatable by an assassin, go check if anyone on a sin has beaten Lhei or Shalelu 1v1 lately. Shalelu said herself that in order to encourage people to attack her she only uses 1 ‘thing’ per fight, and sometimes thats only a single heal pot.

Fri 25 Dec 2020 9:31 AM by Tamy

That's why I specced into high purge basically...for 1v2+ situations and for high rr viper5 assassins.

Like some folks in here said it before: Sin scale exponentially with rr and player skill improvement (pay attention to your env resists, your rotation, your stun use, your purge use etc.). Of course it's the same on other chars but it's definitely more noticeable when you compare shitty played low rr sins vs well played high rr sins.

My scenarios vs good high rr sins (mostly with viper5 spec):
-> sin incs with pa/bs and I got purge rdy -> if I dont fuck up I got a two thirds chance of winning (there are probably 3 to 4 active played sins where it's more like fifty/fifty chance at that point)
-> sin gets caught by me with aura dd etc. and I got purge rdy -> sin has a really hard time to beat me out of this starting position
-> sin gets me with pa/bs and I got no purge rdy -> that's obv the worst situation for me but it's still far from hopeless, I assess my chances still around 40% win rate
-> sin gets caught by me and I got no purge rdy -> not ideal but still good chances at winning...rng will determine the fight.

All these scenarios require a top of the line high rr sin with their purge rdy. And I'm also not taking IP into account. If I got purge/ip ready it's almost impossible for any sin to kill my reaver. He would need rng luck of a lifetime combined with me fucking up half my stuff.

If you ask me that sounds quite fair overall. And since you got even more HP and Def as a full tank you should even have to be less dependent on your purge. A high parry skill is the bane for every sin.

And I really don't think sins are in a nerfed state on Phoenix like Exo said. I think they balanced sins really well on this server for the time beeing. Way more enjoyable to play a sin here than on live servers.

Merry christmas everyone,
Yarna/Tamy

Fri 25 Dec 2020 12:20 PM by Noashakra

I think he said they were nerfed vs the same patch version on live, not that they are weak.
(dual bonus vs shield, poisons not reapplying to each swing etc)

Sat 26 Dec 2020 3:50 AM by Freudinio

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 9:14 AM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:31 AM
So a heavy tank needs to pretty much play perfectly and probably also have to go the extra mile, to beat an assassin 1v1?

Perfectly? No? Better than what was demonstrated. Yes. Do I think that’s unreasonable? No.

Why are you asking to balance classes between two people with a visibly large skillgap? (Not sure I have any critique for the assassin on that fight).

Classes should be balanced on an equal skill level, which strong tanks, and strong sins are all telling you it currently is balanced well in that regard.

Those assassins youre fighting against are themselves going the extra mile to attempt to play pretty much perfectly already. Use that as motivation to improve rather than crying nerf.

A well played tank at middling rr is pretty much unbeatable by an assassin, go check if anyone on a sin has beaten Lhei or Shalelu 1v1 lately. Shalelu said herself that in order to encourage people to attack her she only uses 1 ‘thing’ per fight, and sometimes thats only a single heal pot.

I'm curious. Where do you see me asking for balance changes? And last I checked nobody is forcing assassins to fight heavy tanks, that's kinda how stealth works.

Also, if a point of contention is that we need to talk balance according to skillgap, why is Beaver promoting a video where he kills obviously lesser skilled stealthers?

I'm not going to lie. I have trouble following the logic in many of these arguments (like how is switch not a huge boon for stealthers?) so I have decided to make an infiltrator and I will let you know how I get on.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 4:09 AM by Hedien

This whole thread is irrelevant.

I am an assassin who want to prove assassin are not OP by killing assassin with low rank war.
I select fights with failed engage or numb purge for 5 fights out of 6 in the video, displaying a lack of skill and say : see, no problem.
I also do only show I win fights "this only what I have". But due to above obvious lack of good faith, I cannot trust you since you so "poorly" preselected key videos to make your point.

As said Freudino, and I shared in PM Tani, Beaver video is far from equal skill since no engage.
And my fight against Exo (albeit no video) shows that despite significant mistake from him, (e.g. higher skill on my side for that specific fight) I should have won but did not with 20% left hp on him at the end.

So both situation show a difference of skill. We are never at par. This is why I call you unreasonable Tani, you cannot even admit it.
@Freudi we totally agree mate, and we are not the only ones.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 7:04 AM by cantgetright006

Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 4:09 AM
This whole thread is irrelevant.

I am an assassin who want to prove assassin are not OP by killing assassin with low rank war.
I select fights with failed engage or numb purge for 5 fights out of 6 in the video, displaying a lack of skill and say : see, no problem.
I also do only show I win fights "this only what I have". But due to above obvious lack of good faith, I cannot trust you since you so "poorly" preselected key videos to make your point.

As said Freudino, and I shared in PM Tani, Beaver video is far from equal skill since no engage.
And my fight against Exo (albeit no video) shows that despite significant mistake from him, (e.g. higher skill on my side for that specific fight) I should have won but did not with 20% left hp on him at the end.

So both situation show a difference of skill. We are never at par. This is why I call you unreasonable Tani, you cannot even admit it.
@Freudi we totally agree mate, and we are not the only ones.

Sat/Faturday.

. You will never prove that sins are balanced or not op to people who think that every class is op and needs to be nerfed if it kills them! And that's the thinking of almost every gamer playing pvp games who uses games to boost their ego. The simple truth is every class is op if it's optimal situations are met! But you and them are judging it from the perspective of 1v1 combat. And a lot of the time in DAOC a classes optimal situation isn't linked to 1v1 combat. And that's because the game was never made to be balanced around 1v1 combat! It was made to be balanced around 1v1v1 ( that's realm vs realm vs realm warfare ) and not class vs class single combat. Those are just the facts of the case. And until people understand that every thread that is is trying to prove or disprove. Or simply just ranting, whining, crying, moaning, or bragging is just irrelevant! You, them, or anyone else can disagree with what I said and that cool. Doesn't change the facts at all.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 9:46 AM by Taniquetil

Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 4:09 AM
And my fight against Exo (albeit no video) shows that despite significant mistake from him, (e.g. higher skill on my side for that specific fight) I should have won but did not with 20% left hp on him at the end.

So both situation show a difference of skill. We are never at par. This is why I call you unreasonable Tani, you cannot even admit it.

I straight up dont believe you

Stop whining, show us some clips of you fighting and we’ll critique it. And for gods sake, Beaver ran out on a RR2, fought some high RR sins and beat them, he actively forced the fights to be in his favour, even at RR2 without any actives and won, you cannot deny that this does have a level of relevance to the conversation, I’m sure given time he’ll get to RR6 if you really need and demonstrate the fact that at that point he’d become unkillable even if he let the enemy PA him...

Here is why I dont believe you, this is the fight you told us about/wrote the story about. It just doent add up, I listened to your story, wrote down the damage of the styles you mentioned vs a sins hp pool..

I feel as though I was reasonable on the damage

clipped the spell damage from a rr4 thane vid
reasonable on weap damage, actively didnt factor in the thane self damage add.
Slam damage again taken from a thane vs a sin dmg add excluded
No procs were factored in as that would just be theory
I was VERY generous about the NS HP pool and assumed somewhere between T7 and T9 from memory

So...youre saying Exo managed to beat your full hp bar, and IP and 2 heal pots before you dealt another 195 damage +/- proc variance at which point instead of losing more health he’d actually gained about 10%hp back?

Videos. Please. I want them to help you with constructive criticism not just dismiss you. Until then based on the above I just cant believe this is how the fight went unless there are massive flaws in your gameplay, spec, template, or other.

Excuses of ‘I beat lots of other people so it must be Exo that’s the problem’ is also pretty irrelevant, you wanna beat the top players on any class, you need to be at that level, not several other people who don’t know how to play whatever class they’re on to its full potential.

Call me unreasonable all you want, I’ve pretty respectfully canvassed all the top sneaks and solo visis for you, no one agrees with you. You think PA/BS dmg vs tanks stacking is slightly overtuned, fine but thats not what youre arguing about here at all.

Quickly on that, PA/BS used to do zero damage before ifs change. My proposal before was that it deletes an ablative and then does its base damage, possibly slightly scaled. Either way it should be a high damage attack, like it or not, and before it was less effective than opening with a side ASR or a garotte in to achilles ASR. Tweak that more I don't really mind, It shouldn’t go back to it’s old approach of being worse than garotte, but approaching it differently to make it strong vs softer targets but slightly weaker vs heavy armour, sure. Is that gonna let you beat Exo without you improving as a player? By the sounds of it. No.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 10:30 AM by Astaa

protege wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:44 AM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:31 AM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 12:50 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Dec 2020 4:51 PM
Just a simple video:
Purgeless warrior vs infil.

https://gfycat.com/fr/unnaturaljoyousgrayling

Nah - the warrior clicks too much, he is a noob, rng worked for the infil, gitgud. The infil finished at 60%+ after BS.
@Beaver: Are you going to acknowledge this incident? Or just shrug it off, because the real intent of this whole thread is to dismiss all claim against assassins because you Noa/Tani are playing assassin. Or you are going to show off - yes on my rr1 warrior untemped, with only anytime I kill 11L NS. Right...

I can relate to this video, because I have been in countless similar situations. You don't have IP/Purge up, you simply do not stand a chance.

Sat/Faturday.

What Yarna said. So much room for improvement for the warrior here,

Shield choice
Use of styles to help the warrior, currently far below potential, as far as can be seen no ASR was applied.
Use of /switch
Timing strikes between assassin blows
Instant slam vs a high rr sin, genuinely a dumb move, you know sins spec P4 or 5, plan for it.
Fails to queue correct styles a lot, still queues a rear style despite the sin facing him for a swing
Didnt use any heal pots or offensive charges as far as can be seen, even manually charging an ablative mid fight without purge is preferable to not using a single pot.
Cant critique weapon choice or weapon proc much but given the rest i’d wager theres room for improvement.
Honestly sword is probably also the weakest of the 3 choices for a warrior, I actually really like Axe for the 34% and the 1part anytime asr, hammer is usually seen as optimal though, options on the reactionary 2s stun, use of ASR, and side styles.
Really wanna go the extra mile, fighting a sin? Swap your chest piece to an abla/haste/DA proc instead of heal, it’ll serve you better too.

Given the visible skillgap between the sin and the tank here its also dishonest to ask for this to be used as a frame of reference by which balance decisions are made.

Not here to lie to you Faturday, sins can be beaten by tanks pretty easily, beaver has quickly demonstrated it on a RR2. youve also been offered help to prove/improve/learn from.

Essentially that offer was made to help improve your gameplay and or optimise your 1v1 decision making, end result being you become a tougher opponent, which is great fun for everyone. The concern is, with a nerf, attacking a well played tank would be a 0% win rate, at which point no one would attack tanks alone, which is then less fun for everyone, and at the end, not what you want.

Anyway, happy Xmas, have a good one

So a heavy tank needs to pretty much play perfectly and probably also have to go the extra mile, to beat an assassin 1v1?

Watch my video

Also, just imagine if i were rr6+. No assassin would even pop me, guaranteed.

I'm only messing about on hero and many sins just wont engage, being a heavy tank that is to be expected.

...and I screw up most fights one way or another.

What irritates me atm is get out of jail free cards in 1v1 fights, vanish and SOS, don't engage me if you have no intention of fighting me (aimed an nobody in the thread in particular)

Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:06 AM by Hedien

@Tani ... as discussed, you were quite off:

180 per casted spell.
Instant and Pbaoe do not have same value due to distance to target, I am not hugging to prevent exposing my back. based on that + aom the instant actual is not 130, but closer to 100-110 and the pbaoe hit usually 90-100 against aom 6.
There was one casted spell resisted.
There were at least 3 styles - revenge (ASR block reactive), lambast (Bleed parry reactive) and ruiner (anytime). Reactive style usually deal a minimum 240+40 DA with bad RNG, except ruiner is closer to 200+40.
You also did not include reverse shard skin, I usually run with it. prob 17 dmg x something like 20 swings?
Not taking into account Exo has shared he had tough 9 and const 3. (which is a bit opaque on how you calculated it)
Not taking into account Exo preliminary abla charge and in-fight proc of whatever abla/heal proc he has.
Further edit about dmg, maybe I was wrong with the 240+40, because i was indeed under ws and str debuff....and disease str reduction.

To me it feels about right if you include +240 hp (const 3 + t9), +150 in preabla and a random additional 200 for whatever procs comes.
As we discussed... yes, a viperless tanky NS killed me while taking 2 slams. (It almost sounds like a meme)

And as long as you defend Beaver clip... you discredit yourself as it is obviously not representative.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM by Siouxsie

Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:06 AM
@Tani ... as discussed, you were quite off:

180 per casted spell.
Instant and Pbaoe do not have same value due to distance to target, I am not hugging to prevent exposing my back. based on that + aom the instant actual is not 130, but closer to 100-110 and the pbaoe hit usually 90-100 against aom 6.
There was one casted spell resisted.
There were at least 3 styles - revenge (ASR block reactive), lambast (Bleed parry reactive) and ruiner (anytime). Reactive style usually deal a minimum 240+40 DA with bad RNG, except ruiner is closer to 200+40.
You also did not include reverse shard skin, I usually run with it. prob 17 dmg x something like 20 swings?
Not taking into account Exo has shared he had tough 9 and const 3. (which is a bit opaque on how you calculated it)
Not taking into account Exo preliminary abla charge and in-fight proc of whatever abla/heal proc he has.

To me it feels about right if you include +240 hp (const 3 + t9), +150 in preabla and a random additional 200 for whatever procs comes.
As we discussed... yes, a viperless tanky NS killed me while taking 2 slams. (It almost sounds like a meme)

And as long as you defend Beaver clip... you discredit yourself as it is obviously not representative.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat/Faturday -

You're spot on with this. Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta and I've lost to them on my hunter even with Purge + Ignore Pain 5.
It just doesn't matter.. they will always outdamage you and kill you with 30% health left or more. This has been my experience
with high RR assassins like Therabbin, Zigushade, etc.. The WS/Con debuff hits way too hard and basically cuts your damage back a lot, plus, you've lost 500-650 hitpoints just from the enervating poison alone.

Solution to this is decrease the WS/Con debuff poison delve. That poison is the reason why assassins can take on heavy tanks and win. In classic DAOC, this never happened. It's because of the custom changes on this server that assassins are so powerful.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:58 AM by Saroi

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
Solution to this is decrease the WS/Con debuff poison delve. That poison is the reason why assassins can take on heavy tanks and win. In classic DAOC, this never happened. It's because of the custom changes on this server that assassins are so powerful.

If ws/con poison is the reason why Sins can take on heaving tanks but the poison is the same back then to strength target, why did this not happen in classic?

What exactly never happened? I played a solo warrior back then and I can definitely say that what you are saying is not true. Back then it was a gambling who hit stun first. If I landed slam and Sin no purge, he was dead but if like an Inf hit me with dragonfang without purge, I was dead.

Back then the last attack counted so Inf could spam 9+ seconds Harmstring on your ass and even as a Warrior you did not survive that.

There was even a video existing with a 50 DW Inf, 21 in CS so no stun after PA and he was slash, so no after evade stun and he ran unbuffed and killing all kinds of classes.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 12:43 PM by Freudinio

Saroi wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:58 AM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
Solution to this is decrease the WS/Con debuff poison delve. That poison is the reason why assassins can take on heavy tanks and win. In classic DAOC, this never happened. It's because of the custom changes on this server that assassins are so powerful.

If ws/con poison is the reason why Sins can take on heaving tanks but the poison is the same back then to strength target, why did this not happen in classic?

What exactly never happened? I played a solo warrior back then and I can definitely say that what you are saying is not true. Back then it was a gambling who hit stun first. If I landed slam and Sin no purge, he was dead but if like an Inf hit me with dragonfang without purge, I was dead.

Back then the last attack counted so Inf could spam 9+ seconds Harmstring on your ass and even as a Warrior you did not survive that.

There was even a video existing with a 50 DW Inf, 21 in CS so no stun after PA and he was slash, so no after evade stun and he ran unbuffed and killing all kinds of classes.

I soloed exclusively on an armsman from release to shortly before ToA and I can literally count on one hand the sneaks that could put up a fight. Melee Rangers were more often a much tougher fight (atleast as I remember, I am old..). That said, I never had to face infs and I did read the complaints on Vnboards frequently, so maybe they were overtuned back then?

For videos, I honestly don't take them into account too much, as they are mostly just cherry picking fights and we have no real way to know if the person wins 1/7 fights or 6/7.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 12:45 PM by Siouxsie

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 12:43 PM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:58 AM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
Solution to this is decrease the WS/Con debuff poison delve. That poison is the reason why assassins can take on heavy tanks and win. In classic DAOC, this never happened. It's because of the custom changes on this server that assassins are so powerful.

If ws/con poison is the reason why Sins can take on heaving tanks but the poison is the same back then to strength target, why did this not happen in classic?

What exactly never happened? I played a solo warrior back then and I can definitely say that what you are saying is not true. Back then it was a gambling who hit stun first. If I landed slam and Sin no purge, he was dead but if like an Inf hit me with dragonfang without purge, I was dead.

Back then the last attack counted so Inf could spam 9+ seconds Harmstring on your ass and even as a Warrior you did not survive that.

There was even a video existing with a 50 DW Inf, 21 in CS so no stun after PA and he was slash, so no after evade stun and he ran unbuffed and killing all kinds of classes.

I soloed exclusively on an armsman from release to shortly before ToA and I can literally count on one hand the sneaks that could put up a fight. Melee Rangers were more often a much tougher fight (atleast as I remember, I am old..). That said, I never had to face infs and I did read the complaints on Vnboards frequently, so maybe they were overtuned back then?

For videos, I honestly don't take them into account too much, as they are mostly just cherry picking fights and we have no real way to know if the person wins 1/7 fights or 6/7.

Yes, I believe you are right. Back in the days of the VNBoards there were lots of complaints about Infiltrators. They were easily the most
powerful assassin of the game pre-TOA. Shadowblades were strong too, but the Left Axe nerf hurt them and they were never rebalanced until later.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 12:51 PM by Saroi

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 12:43 PM
I soloed exclusively on an armsman from release to shortly before ToA and I can literally count on one hand the sneaks that could put up a fight. Melee Rangers were more often a much tougher fight (atleast as I remember, I am old..). That said, I never had to face infs and I did read the complaints on Vnboards frequently, so maybe they were overtuned back then?

For videos, I honestly don't take them into account too much, as they are mostly just cherry picking fights and we have no real way to know if the person wins 1/7 fights or 6/7.

Well like I said, being in a 9 sec stun and getting hit non stop with Harmstring is pretty op. The stun from NS wasn't high enough and with SB being 2 part stun, the chances of having to evade again so you could use harmstring was like 1 in a million. As for Nightshades they never really were a problem with a Warrior unless they were high rr and used Viper and avoid pain. Then it was a tough fight.

ofc videos are always picking the cherry and can never be taken too seriously but Sins weren't that weak back then like some people think. And you still need to manage being unbuffed without any stuns and the stuns normally is the core from Stealthers.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 1:09 PM by Freudinio

Saroi wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 12:51 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 12:43 PM
I soloed exclusively on an armsman from release to shortly before ToA and I can literally count on one hand the sneaks that could put up a fight. Melee Rangers were more often a much tougher fight (atleast as I remember, I am old..). That said, I never had to face infs and I did read the complaints on Vnboards frequently, so maybe they were overtuned back then?

For videos, I honestly don't take them into account too much, as they are mostly just cherry picking fights and we have no real way to know if the person wins 1/7 fights or 6/7.

Well like I said, being in a 9 sec stun and getting hit non stop with Harmstring is pretty op. The stun from NS wasn't high enough and with SB being 2 part stun, the chances of having to evade again so you could use harmstring was like 1 in a million. As for Nightshades they never really were a problem with a Warrior unless they were high rr and used Viper and avoid pain. Then it was a tough fight.

ofc videos are always picking the cherry and can never be taken too seriously but Sins weren't that weak back then like some people think. And you still need to manage being unbuffed without any stuns and the stuns normally is the core from Stealthers.

I'm sure the infs back then would argue that they weren't op.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 1:59 PM by Tashkent

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
You're spot on with this. Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta and I've lost to them on my hunter even with Purge + Ignore Pain 5.
It just doesn't matter.. they will always outdamage you and kill you with 30% health left or more.

May I ask your spec and Ra's? I cannot imagine this to be the norm when I'm rr10 or rr11. You can pm me if you want.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 3:20 PM by Siouxsie

Tashkent wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 1:59 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
You're spot on with this. Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta and I've lost to them on my hunter even with Purge + Ignore Pain 5.
It just doesn't matter.. they will always outdamage you and kill you with 30% health left or more.
May I ask your spec and Ra's? I cannot imagine this to be the norm when I'm rr10 or rr11. You can pm me if you want.

I'll DM you in game next I see you.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 5:10 PM by protege

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 3:50 AM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 9:14 AM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:31 AM
So a heavy tank needs to pretty much play perfectly and probably also have to go the extra mile, to beat an assassin 1v1?

Perfectly? No? Better than what was demonstrated. Yes. Do I think that’s unreasonable? No.

Why are you asking to balance classes between two people with a visibly large skillgap? (Not sure I have any critique for the assassin on that fight).

Classes should be balanced on an equal skill level, which strong tanks, and strong sins are all telling you it currently is balanced well in that regard.

Those assassins youre fighting against are themselves going the extra mile to attempt to play pretty much perfectly already. Use that as motivation to improve rather than crying nerf.

A well played tank at middling rr is pretty much unbeatable by an assassin, go check if anyone on a sin has beaten Lhei or Shalelu 1v1 lately. Shalelu said herself that in order to encourage people to attack her she only uses 1 ‘thing’ per fight, and sometimes thats only a single heal pot.

I'm curious. Where do you see me asking for balance changes? And last I checked nobody is forcing assassins to fight heavy tanks, that's kinda how stealth works.

Also, if a point of contention is that we need to talk balance according to skillgap, why is Beaver promoting a video where he kills obviously lesser skilled stealthers?

I'm not going to lie. I have trouble following the logic in many of these arguments (like how is switch not a huge boon for stealthers?) so I have decided to make an infiltrator and I will let you know how I get on.

There is 0 skill gap between Lifti and Pox vs. me -- the others? Perhaps, I haven't fought them enough to really know.

What exactly will prove that assassins are OP in your/Faturday's eyes? When a rr10+ assassin gets perf/backstab off on arank 2 warrior and wins? Give me a break.

Also, I'm not sure if Faturday is being intentionally thick, but the assassin who purged my numb also got PERF AND CD off on me and I DID NOT purge.

Also, please, make that infiltrator and duel my warrior. I cannot wait.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 6:39 PM by boridi

Faturday,
Have you tried playing a light/heavy tank against assassins? The problem with thanes is low melee dmg from 39 hammer or 34 hammer and no parry (because most go 50 SC and 42 shield). I bet 50 hammer/42 shield/30 SC/25 parry would do much better against assassins. Mjolnirs fury is a good style. Your nukes wouldnt be good and you would basically be a mediocre warrior. Other tanks dont have to waste points on ranged spells (except champs, and those debuffs are awesome in 1v1)

Sat 26 Dec 2020 6:50 PM by Eckso

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:06 AM
@Tani ... as discussed, you were quite off:

180 per casted spell.
Instant and Pbaoe do not have same value due to distance to target, I am not hugging to prevent exposing my back. based on that + aom the instant actual is not 130, but closer to 100-110 and the pbaoe hit usually 90-100 against aom 6.
There was one casted spell resisted.
There were at least 3 styles - revenge (ASR block reactive), lambast (Bleed parry reactive) and ruiner (anytime). Reactive style usually deal a minimum 240+40 DA with bad RNG, except ruiner is closer to 200+40.
You also did not include reverse shard skin, I usually run with it. prob 17 dmg x something like 20 swings?
Not taking into account Exo has shared he had tough 9 and const 3. (which is a bit opaque on how you calculated it)
Not taking into account Exo preliminary abla charge and in-fight proc of whatever abla/heal proc he has.

To me it feels about right if you include +240 hp (const 3 + t9), +150 in preabla and a random additional 200 for whatever procs comes.
As we discussed... yes, a viperless tanky NS killed me while taking 2 slams. (It almost sounds like a meme)

And as long as you defend Beaver clip... you discredit yourself as it is obviously not representative.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat/Faturday -

You're spot on with this. Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta and I've lost to them on my hunter even with Purge + Ignore Pain 5.
It just doesn't matter.. they will always outdamage you and kill you with 30% health left or more. This has been my experience
with high RR assassins like Therabbin, Zigushade, etc.. The WS/Con debuff hits way too hard and basically cuts your damage back a lot, plus, you've lost 500-650 hitpoints just from the enervating poison alone.

Solution to this is decrease the WS/Con debuff poison delve. That poison is the reason why assassins can take on heavy tanks and win. In classic DAOC, this never happened. It's because of the custom changes on this server that assassins are so powerful.

You're welcome! I take full responsibility for the Tanky Sin Meta

And no to your mention of "The Solution is to decrease Envenerating". Its already been nerfed from 118 to 100. The reason your Hunter cant out damage assassins is because you dont have Physical Defense at this patch, not because something else needs to be nerfed.

Open up with bow damage, you already got a buff to have same detect as an assassin.

Cheers
-Exo

Sat 26 Dec 2020 7:09 PM by gotwqqd

Eckso wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 6:50 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:06 AM
@Tani ... as discussed, you were quite off:

180 per casted spell.
Instant and Pbaoe do not have same value due to distance to target, I am not hugging to prevent exposing my back. based on that + aom the instant actual is not 130, but closer to 100-110 and the pbaoe hit usually 90-100 against aom 6.
There was one casted spell resisted.
There were at least 3 styles - revenge (ASR block reactive), lambast (Bleed parry reactive) and ruiner (anytime). Reactive style usually deal a minimum 240+40 DA with bad RNG, except ruiner is closer to 200+40.
You also did not include reverse shard skin, I usually run with it. prob 17 dmg x something like 20 swings?
Not taking into account Exo has shared he had tough 9 and const 3. (which is a bit opaque on how you calculated it)
Not taking into account Exo preliminary abla charge and in-fight proc of whatever abla/heal proc he has.

To me it feels about right if you include +240 hp (const 3 + t9), +150 in preabla and a random additional 200 for whatever procs comes.
As we discussed... yes, a viperless tanky NS killed me while taking 2 slams. (It almost sounds like a meme)

And as long as you defend Beaver clip... you discredit yourself as it is obviously not representative.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat/Faturday -

You're spot on with this. Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta and I've lost to them on my hunter even with Purge + Ignore Pain 5.
It just doesn't matter.. they will always outdamage you and kill you with 30% health left or more. This has been my experience
with high RR assassins like Therabbin, Zigushade, etc.. The WS/Con debuff hits way too hard and basically cuts your damage back a lot, plus, you've lost 500-650 hitpoints just from the enervating poison alone.

Solution to this is decrease the WS/Con debuff poison delve. That poison is the reason why assassins can take on heavy tanks and win. In classic DAOC, this never happened. It's because of the custom changes on this server that assassins are so powerful.

You're welcome! I take full responsibility for the Tanky Sin Meta

And no to your mention of "The Solution is to decrease Envenerating". Its already been nerfed from 118 to 100. The reason your Hunter cant out damage assassins is because you dont have Physical Defense at this patch, not because something else needs to be nerfed.

Open up with bow damage, you already got a buff to have same detect as an assassin.

Cheers
-Exo

Is getting in a bow shot of an assassin that is active remotely realistic?

Sat 26 Dec 2020 8:52 PM by protege

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 7:09 PM
Eckso wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 6:50 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:06 AM
@Tani ... as discussed, you were quite off:

180 per casted spell.
Instant and Pbaoe do not have same value due to distance to target, I am not hugging to prevent exposing my back. based on that + aom the instant actual is not 130, but closer to 100-110 and the pbaoe hit usually 90-100 against aom 6.
There was one casted spell resisted.
There were at least 3 styles - revenge (ASR block reactive), lambast (Bleed parry reactive) and ruiner (anytime). Reactive style usually deal a minimum 240+40 DA with bad RNG, except ruiner is closer to 200+40.
You also did not include reverse shard skin, I usually run with it. prob 17 dmg x something like 20 swings?
Not taking into account Exo has shared he had tough 9 and const 3. (which is a bit opaque on how you calculated it)
Not taking into account Exo preliminary abla charge and in-fight proc of whatever abla/heal proc he has.

To me it feels about right if you include +240 hp (const 3 + t9), +150 in preabla and a random additional 200 for whatever procs comes.
As we discussed... yes, a viperless tanky NS killed me while taking 2 slams. (It almost sounds like a meme)

And as long as you defend Beaver clip... you discredit yourself as it is obviously not representative.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat/Faturday -

You're spot on with this. Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta and I've lost to them on my hunter even with Purge + Ignore Pain 5.
It just doesn't matter.. they will always outdamage you and kill you with 30% health left or more. This has been my experience
with high RR assassins like Therabbin, Zigushade, etc.. The WS/Con debuff hits way too hard and basically cuts your damage back a lot, plus, you've lost 500-650 hitpoints just from the enervating poison alone.

Solution to this is decrease the WS/Con debuff poison delve. That poison is the reason why assassins can take on heavy tanks and win. In classic DAOC, this never happened. It's because of the custom changes on this server that assassins are so powerful.

You're welcome! I take full responsibility for the Tanky Sin Meta

And no to your mention of "The Solution is to decrease Envenerating". Its already been nerfed from 118 to 100. The reason your Hunter cant out damage assassins is because you dont have Physical Defense at this patch, not because something else needs to be nerfed.

Open up with bow damage, you already got a buff to have same detect as an assassin.

Cheers
-Exo
Is getting in a bow shot of an assassin that is active remotely realistic?

On Phoenix, you can preload crit shots

Sat 26 Dec 2020 9:06 PM by gotwqqd

protege wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 8:52 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 7:09 PM
Eckso wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 6:50 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:06 AM
@Tani ... as discussed, you were quite off:

180 per casted spell.
Instant and Pbaoe do not have same value due to distance to target, I am not hugging to prevent exposing my back. based on that + aom the instant actual is not 130, but closer to 100-110 and the pbaoe hit usually 90-100 against aom 6.
There was one casted spell resisted.
There were at least 3 styles - revenge (ASR block reactive), lambast (Bleed parry reactive) and ruiner (anytime). Reactive style usually deal a minimum 240+40 DA with bad RNG, except ruiner is closer to 200+40.
You also did not include reverse shard skin, I usually run with it. prob 17 dmg x something like 20 swings?
Not taking into account Exo has shared he had tough 9 and const 3. (which is a bit opaque on how you calculated it)
Not taking into account Exo preliminary abla charge and in-fight proc of whatever abla/heal proc he has.

To me it feels about right if you include +240 hp (const 3 + t9), +150 in preabla and a random additional 200 for whatever procs comes.
As we discussed... yes, a viperless tanky NS killed me while taking 2 slams. (It almost sounds like a meme)

And as long as you defend Beaver clip... you discredit yourself as it is obviously not representative.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat/Faturday -

You're spot on with this. Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta and I've lost to them on my hunter even with Purge + Ignore Pain 5.
It just doesn't matter.. they will always outdamage you and kill you with 30% health left or more. This has been my experience
with high RR assassins like Therabbin, Zigushade, etc.. The WS/Con debuff hits way too hard and basically cuts your damage back a lot, plus, you've lost 500-650 hitpoints just from the enervating poison alone.

Solution to this is decrease the WS/Con debuff poison delve. That poison is the reason why assassins can take on heavy tanks and win. In classic DAOC, this never happened. It's because of the custom changes on this server that assassins are so powerful.

You're welcome! I take full responsibility for the Tanky Sin Meta

And no to your mention of "The Solution is to decrease Envenerating". Its already been nerfed from 118 to 100. The reason your Hunter cant out damage assassins is because you dont have Physical Defense at this patch, not because something else needs to be nerfed.

Open up with bow damage, you already got a buff to have same detect as an assassin.

Cheers
-Exo
Is getting in a bow shot of an assassin that is active remotely realistic?

On Phoenix, you can preload crit shots

Sure any shot
But then you must wait for an assassin to come into your LoS

I still think even if getting off a crit shot death is likely for the archer

Sat 26 Dec 2020 9:44 PM by Taniquetil

Fine, I’m bored. Despite many accomplished visi soloers stating no nerf is needed, my mind has been changed, since there are 4 or 5 x RR11/12 assassins who you struggle against (“all others being killable” paraphrasing) despite you playing with several flaws and sub optimal RAs nerf everyone so that you dont need to improve as players or change your playstyle at all to fight back. Nerf sins.

Also lets dine out on a written story (no logs or vid) of a single fight which aims to support your opinion whilst dismissing 10’s of fights which go against your narrative.

Ya got me.

Nerf options:

Viper, but Exo in said fabled story has no viper

Hp pool because “ Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta”

Illegal scripting, because lets nerf them instead of banning the cheats.

wscon, despite vs slash damage it being the same as strcon, the only thing this equalises is the effect of the debuff vs dex based weaps vs pure str based weaps.

/switch mechanic, because several nerf criers admit to struggling with it yourselves for shield/weap swaps, but that’s what’s giving sins the edge over you.

[Edit]oh or PA damage, because when I get Pa’d i die even when I use purge and IP and my opponent sits through 2 full slams, but if a RR2 warrior dodges PA, he wins vs a RR11sin(one of the best) it must be the PA damage(despite IP wildly offsetting PA damage).

Pick one? Or all of em? But definitely dont try to play the game any differently or adapt to challenges.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 10:05 PM by Stoertebecker

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 9:06 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 8:52 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 7:09 PM
Eckso wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 6:50 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:28 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:06 AM
@Tani ... as discussed, you were quite off:

180 per casted spell.
Instant and Pbaoe do not have same value due to distance to target, I am not hugging to prevent exposing my back. based on that + aom the instant actual is not 130, but closer to 100-110 and the pbaoe hit usually 90-100 against aom 6.
There was one casted spell resisted.
There were at least 3 styles - revenge (ASR block reactive), lambast (Bleed parry reactive) and ruiner (anytime). Reactive style usually deal a minimum 240+40 DA with bad RNG, except ruiner is closer to 200+40.
You also did not include reverse shard skin, I usually run with it. prob 17 dmg x something like 20 swings?
Not taking into account Exo has shared he had tough 9 and const 3. (which is a bit opaque on how you calculated it)
Not taking into account Exo preliminary abla charge and in-fight proc of whatever abla/heal proc he has.

To me it feels about right if you include +240 hp (const 3 + t9), +150 in preabla and a random additional 200 for whatever procs comes.
As we discussed... yes, a viperless tanky NS killed me while taking 2 slams. (It almost sounds like a meme)

And as long as you defend Beaver clip... you discredit yourself as it is obviously not representative.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat/Faturday -

You're spot on with this. Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta and I've lost to them on my hunter even with Purge + Ignore Pain 5.
It just doesn't matter.. they will always outdamage you and kill you with 30% health left or more. This has been my experience
with high RR assassins like Therabbin, Zigushade, etc.. The WS/Con debuff hits way too hard and basically cuts your damage back a lot, plus, you've lost 500-650 hitpoints just from the enervating poison alone.

Solution to this is decrease the WS/Con debuff poison delve. That poison is the reason why assassins can take on heavy tanks and win. In classic DAOC, this never happened. It's because of the custom changes on this server that assassins are so powerful.

You're welcome! I take full responsibility for the Tanky Sin Meta

And no to your mention of "The Solution is to decrease Envenerating". Its already been nerfed from 118 to 100. The reason your Hunter cant out damage assassins is because you dont have Physical Defense at this patch, not because something else needs to be nerfed.

Open up with bow damage, you already got a buff to have same detect as an assassin.

Cheers
-Exo
Is getting in a bow shot of an assassin that is active remotely realistic?

On Phoenix, you can preload crit shots
Sure any shot
But then you must wait for an assassin to come into your LoS

I still think even if getting off a crit shot death is likely for the archer

Because the high evade rate on crit shots out of stealth

It helps more than standing in melee from the 1st second of a fight. Usually i get a crit and 1 rf off before entering melee.
And you need patience for it, thats something most ppl don`t have.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 10:17 PM by protege

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 9:44 PM
Fine, I’m bored. Despite many accomplished visi soloers stating no nerf is needed, my mind has been changed, since there are 4 or 5 x RR11/12 assassins who you struggle against (“all others being killable” paraphrasing) despite you playing with several flaws and sub optimal RAs nerf everyone so that you dont need to improve as players or change your playstyle at all to fight back. Nerf sins.

Also lets dine out on a written story (no logs or vid) of a single fight which aims to support your opinion whilst dismissing 10’s of fights which go against your narrative.

Ya got me.

Nerf options:
Viper, but Exo in said fabled story has no viper
Hp pool because “ Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta”
Illegal scripting, because lets nerf them instead of banning the cheats.
wscon, despite vs slash damage it being the same as strcon, the only thing this equalises is the effect of the debuff vs dex based weaps vs pure str based weaps.
/switch mechanic, because several nerf criers admit to struggling with it yourselves for shield/weap swaps, but that’s what’s giving sins the edge over you.

Pick one? Or all of em? But definitely dont try to play the game any differently or adapt to challenges.

BRAVO!!!! /CLAP

Sat 26 Dec 2020 10:44 PM by Freudinio

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 9:44 PM
Fine, I’m bored. Despite many accomplished visi soloers stating no nerf is needed, my mind has been changed, since there are 4 or 5 x RR11/12 assassins who you struggle against (“all others being killable” paraphrasing) despite you playing with several flaws and sub optimal RAs nerf everyone so that you dont need to improve as players or change your playstyle at all to fight back. Nerf sins.

Also lets dine out on a written story (no logs or vid) of a single fight which aims to support your opinion whilst dismissing 10’s of fights which go against your narrative.

Ya got me.

Nerf options:
Viper, but Exo in said fabled story has no viper
Hp pool because “ Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta”
Illegal scripting, because lets nerf them instead of banning the cheats.
wscon, despite vs slash damage it being the same as strcon, the only thing this equalises is the effect of the debuff vs dex based weaps vs pure str based weaps.
/switch mechanic, because several nerf criers admit to struggling with it yourselves for shield/weap swaps, but that’s what’s giving sins the edge over you.

Pick one? Or all of em? But definitely dont try to play the game any differently or adapt to challenges.

Yikes.

Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:51 PM by WildWilbur

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 9:44 PM
Fine, I’m bored. Despite many accomplished visi soloers stating no nerf is needed, my mind has been changed, since there are 4 or 5 x RR11/12 assassins who you struggle against (“all others being killable” paraphrasing) despite you playing with several flaws and sub optimal RAs nerf everyone so that you dont need to improve as players or change your playstyle at all to fight back. Nerf sins.

Also lets dine out on a written story (no logs or vid) of a single fight which aims to support your opinion whilst dismissing 10’s of fights which go against your narrative.

Ya got me.

Nerf options:
Viper, but Exo in said fabled story has no viper
Hp pool because “ Tanky NS/Infs is the new meta”
Illegal scripting, because lets nerf them instead of banning the cheats.
wscon, despite vs slash damage it being the same as strcon, the only thing this equalises is the effect of the debuff vs dex based weaps vs pure str based weaps.
/switch mechanic, because several nerf criers admit to struggling with it yourselves for shield/weap swaps, but that’s what’s giving sins the edge over you.

Pick one? Or all of em? But definitely dont try to play the game any differently or adapt to challenges.

Dude, what is your profession? I'm really amazed from your patience you show with those "Masterbrains" in this threads (and in all 'nerf those filthy assassins plzkkthxbye'-threads). Even I couldn't bring up those patience though it's my RL job to do so.

Keep up fighting their 'truth'. You clearly know by now:

- the earth clearly is flat
- the end of the world clearly was yesterday
- assassins clearly need to be nerfed
- Elvis clearly is alive

“The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.” (Kim Jung-il)

Sun 27 Dec 2020 12:07 AM by Taniquetil

WildWilbur wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 11:51 PM
Dude, what is your profession? I'm really amazed from your patience you show with those "Masterbrains" in this threads (and in all 'nerf those filthy assassins plzkkthxbye'-threads). Even I couldn't bring up those patience though it's my RL job to do so.

Haha, this made me chuckle, it’s actually part of my day job to debate and defend my companies position with incredibly unreasonable people whilst trying to remain patient and balanced 😂

One for you...”Always remember, your professional career will one day come in handy when debating nonsense with strangers on the internet” - Steve Jobs

Or was it “arguing with strangers on the internet will make you better at your job” - Maradona

Sun 27 Dec 2020 6:40 AM by protege

https://youtu.be/UFjlRQ4khQU

New vid! FLAMMEN VAKTEN VS THUNDERER

Assassins should be looked at... you kidding me?

Sun 27 Dec 2020 8:03 AM by Noashakra

your target health bar is not centered and it triggers me.

Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:09 PM by Freudinio

protege wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 5:10 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Dec 2020 3:50 AM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 9:14 AM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Dec 2020 4:31 AM
So a heavy tank needs to pretty much play perfectly and probably also have to go the extra mile, to beat an assassin 1v1?

Perfectly? No? Better than what was demonstrated. Yes. Do I think that’s unreasonable? No.

Why are you asking to balance classes between two people with a visibly large skillgap? (Not sure I have any critique for the assassin on that fight).

Classes should be balanced on an equal skill level, which strong tanks, and strong sins are all telling you it currently is balanced well in that regard.

Those assassins youre fighting against are themselves going the extra mile to attempt to play pretty much perfectly already. Use that as motivation to improve rather than crying nerf.

A well played tank at middling rr is pretty much unbeatable by an assassin, go check if anyone on a sin has beaten Lhei or Shalelu 1v1 lately. Shalelu said herself that in order to encourage people to attack her she only uses 1 ‘thing’ per fight, and sometimes thats only a single heal pot.

I'm curious. Where do you see me asking for balance changes? And last I checked nobody is forcing assassins to fight heavy tanks, that's kinda how stealth works.

Also, if a point of contention is that we need to talk balance according to skillgap, why is Beaver promoting a video where he kills obviously lesser skilled stealthers?

I'm not going to lie. I have trouble following the logic in many of these arguments (like how is switch not a huge boon for stealthers?) so I have decided to make an infiltrator and I will let you know how I get on.

There is 0 skill gap between Lifti and Pox vs. me -- the others? Perhaps, I haven't fought them enough to really know.

What exactly will prove that assassins are OP in your/Faturday's eyes? When a rr10+ assassin gets perf/backstab off on arank 2 warrior and wins? Give me a break.

Also, I'm not sure if Faturday is being intentionally thick, but the assassin who purged my numb also got PERF AND CD off on me and I DID NOT purge.

Also, please, make that infiltrator and duel my warrior. I cannot wait.

I rest my case.

This literally proves everything I have stated so far.

Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:23 PM by Taniquetil

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:09 PM
I rest my case.

What case? At this point I’m lost.

Beaver wins as a RR2 Warrior Vs Rr11 sin? Therefore sins need a nerf?

Think at this point its fairly clear the solution to these threads is the authors just continuing to play and improve.

Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:32 PM by Noashakra

He would beat a NS RR11L with 20% life and AFK people would still find a way to complain :p

Sun 27 Dec 2020 9:13 PM by Simon73

protege wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 6:40 AM
https://youtu.be/UFjlRQ4khQU

New vid! FLAMMEN VAKTEN VS THUNDERER

Assassins should be looked at... you kidding me?

as i said on the other thread, i liked your video. But I saw only combats vs hib hidden. Please show us also vs infi and maybe some duels with sb

Sun 27 Dec 2020 9:41 PM by Freudinio

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:23 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:09 PM
I rest my case.

What case? At this point I’m lost.

Beaver wins as a RR2 Warrior Vs Rr11 sin? Therefore sins need a nerf?

Think at this point its fairly clear the solution to these threads is the authors just continuing to play and improve.

The author of this thread was Beaver..?

Sun 27 Dec 2020 10:07 PM by Taniquetil

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 9:41 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:23 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:09 PM
I rest my case.

What case? At this point I’m lost.

Beaver wins as a RR2 Warrior Vs Rr11 sin? Therefore sins need a nerf?

Think at this point its fairly clear the solution to these threads is the authors just continuing to play and improve.

The author of this thread was Beaver..?

These threads, plural, talking about the general whinging. But good dodge attempt.

Mon 28 Dec 2020 5:41 AM by protege

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 9:13 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 6:40 AM
https://youtu.be/UFjlRQ4khQU

New vid! FLAMMEN VAKTEN VS THUNDERER

Assassins should be looked at... you kidding me?

as i said on the other thread, i liked your video. But I saw only combats vs hib hidden. Please show us also vs infi and maybe some duels with sb

I suppose I fight more solo hib stealthers... not many solo infs left tbh

https://youtu.be/vwxzYg7h_zs

There you go.

This is before I got a fast small shield and high moparry even...

Mon 28 Dec 2020 6:02 AM by protege

https://youtu.be/QVFN3OFCDLE

1v2

Ate x2 perfs in that fight.

Mon 28 Dec 2020 12:10 PM by cantgetright006

protege wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 6:02 AM
https://youtu.be/QVFN3OFCDLE

1v2

Ate x2 perfs in that fight.

Yeah nerf that warrior! But for real what this clip shows is there is a difference between knowing what you're doing and thinking you know what you're doing! when facing someone who knows what they are doing and you only think you know. It looks unfair and that person must be overpowered! Until you see that same person go against someone else who knows what they are doing. All classes in this game are op when used by someone who knows what they are doing with that class! And since the game has been out for over 2 decades. Plus it was never designed for 1v1 but 1v1v1! And when I soloed on live with my reaver that's the mindset I used. Learning through trial and error how to fight and beat multiple opponents at the same time. Until I got really good at it! Still I would win some and lose some. But I rarely lost to a sin 1v1 unless i was playing drunk! Sober that sin had no chance in hell no matter what rr he was. It got to a point where they would attack me anymore unless they where in a group. And I didn't blame or flame them for that. I was just happy to get fights again.

Mon 28 Dec 2020 1:20 PM by Simon73

protege wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 6:02 AM
https://youtu.be/QVFN3OFCDLE

1v2

Ate x2 perfs in that fight.

Lucky, you got only 1 small dot (around 50dmg), no debuff strcon or else, in nearly 2 minutes fight. And they hit you for 30+ moreless. Nice equipment

Mon 28 Dec 2020 1:39 PM by protege

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 1:20 PM
protege wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 6:02 AM
https://youtu.be/QVFN3OFCDLE

1v2

Ate x2 perfs in that fight.

Lucky, you got only 1 small dot (around 50dmg), no debuff strcon or else, in nearly 2 minutes fight. And they hit you for 30+ moreless. Nice equipment

Indeed, those two nightshades should probably spend more time soloing and learning the fundamentals of the class.

Did you watch the rr10 infil fight?

Mon 28 Dec 2020 1:47 PM by Saroi

Simon73 wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 1:20 PM
Lucky, you got only 1 small dot (around 50dmg), no debuff strcon or else, in nearly 2 minutes fight. And they hit you for 30+ moreless. Nice equipment

It is true that the Sins weren't good at all and that it overall doesn't show much balance atm. What it does show is that a Sin without poison is useless. On the Forum there are people who are wanting since month that Sins are only able to put poison on the weapons they have equip and not on additional weapons in the inventory and that Sins would totally be fine and kill stuff. So basically Sins suppose to be stuck with 3 poisoned weapons and kill something.

Tue 29 Dec 2020 1:47 AM by Hedien

Guys. Let's be reasonable. All great 1v1 players have said assassins are fine.
We all agreed that all Beaver videos are representative and therefore, should be the gospel.

What about the dots? Sheesh, they were TWO? TWO for god sake. It really shows that assassin need a buff if they cannot win 2v1. I mean even Tani said I played well during my video, so my opinion could count at least a little.

Thanks again Beaver for showing us the light. I mean, I don't think your fights could be any more representative, I mean... are people blind? LOL.
(note: I love when you write HURDURR, this is hilarious)

Edit: Forgot a capital letter to Beaver name, such disrespect, I needed to change that! Sorry sorry!

Sat/Faturday.

Tue 29 Dec 2020 2:17 AM by Freudinio

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 10:07 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 9:41 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:23 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Dec 2020 7:09 PM
I rest my case.

What case? At this point I’m lost.

Beaver wins as a RR2 Warrior Vs Rr11 sin? Therefore sins need a nerf?

Think at this point its fairly clear the solution to these threads is the authors just continuing to play and improve.

The author of this thread was Beaver..?

These threads, plural, talking about the general whinging. But good dodge attempt.

Not the one dodging fam.

You have still to acknowledge that assassins are strong af. The fact that you can't kill certain classes (which you can then easily avoid) does not change this.

You also MASSIVELY fail to understand where the animosity towards stealthers come from and you have made zero effort to do so. You blindly defend assassins to the point where you would rather put the server to it's grave than accept an ugly truth.

I'm done here. Enjoy your misguided cirklejerk.

Tue 29 Dec 2020 2:26 AM by thirian24

Every post on this forum consists of assassins OP and GVG isn’t fair.

Lmfao

Tue 29 Dec 2020 3:54 AM by protege

I love how all of the people who complain that assassins are overpowered refuse to make one and show them taking out tanks with ease.

The challenge is still up btw -- make an assassin, and beat heavy tanks, light tanks or hybrids.

I'm not even asking you guys to kill the visible greats (ala Yarna, Shalelu, Lhei, etc). kill ME on one of my tanks --- I'm nowhere near the same skill level as those 3 on a solo tank/hybrid.

Tue 29 Dec 2020 4:11 AM by protege

Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Dec 2020 1:47 AM
Guys. Let's be reasonable. All great 1v1 players have said assassins are fine.
We all agreed that all Beaver videos are representative and therefore, should be the gospel.

What about the dots? Sheesh, they were TWO? TWO for god sake. It really shows that assassin need a buff if they cannot win 2v1. I mean even Tani said I played well during my video, so my opinion could count at least a little.

Thanks again Beaver for showing us the light. I mean, I don't think your fights could be any more representative, I mean... are people blind? LOL.
(note: I love when you write HURDURR, this is hilarious)

Edit: Forgot a capital letter to Beaver name, such disrespect, I needed to change that! Sorry sorry!

Sat/Faturday.

This is what losing an argument looks like.

Tue 29 Dec 2020 4:54 AM by Hedien

protege wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Dec 2020 4:11 AM
This is what losing an argument looks like.

Yes, I apologised already for not seeing the light earlier. How long are you going to hold it against me?
We cannot all know everything without any doubt. The gift of clarity is not bestowed upon all, I am not as lucky as you are.

Sat/Faturday.

Tue 29 Dec 2020 5:07 AM by Hedien

protege wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Dec 2020 3:54 AM
I love how all of the people who complain that assassins are overpowered refuse to make one and show them taking out tanks with ease.
The challenge is still up btw -- make an assassin, and beat heavy tanks, light tanks or hybrids.
I'm not even asking you guys to kill the visible greats (ala Yarna, Shalelu, Lhei, etc). kill ME on one of my tanks --- I'm nowhere near the same skill level as those 3 on a solo tank/hybrid.

I really like the new video from Tani : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te8RWKzdc7c&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=TaniDAOCPhoenix
Aside from the amazing artwork, music and video editing that I really enjoy and aspire to become better at...You can also see how with her 11L NS she dispatches 10L (11L?) skald and then 11L reaver, while they each used IP. Then you see her killing Balder 11L skald with her 4-6L infil, while he uses IP. I MEAN JUST WOW.

But let's be fair, Tani skill is just UP there compared to her enemies, those fights are NOT REPRESENTATIVE AT ALL. JUST PURELY ANECDOTAL. As we have seen with my video, assassin do need a buff to be made competitive overall. Tani will get stronger, but it is inevitable.

Sat/Faturday.

Tue 29 Dec 2020 6:41 AM by easytoremember

Saroi wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 1:47 PM
So basically Sins suppose to be stuck with 3 poisoned weapons and kill something.

Why not? If that change came about their melee could see love, /switch cease to exist, and people cease being walking proc gachas

At least if I remember right BM/merc can have lefthand equipped to 2H and swap between that and equipped shield
The only casualty I see is VWs pissy about their focus

Tue 29 Dec 2020 7:50 AM by Noashakra

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Dec 2020 6:41 AM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 1:47 PM
So basically Sins suppose to be stuck with 3 poisoned weapons and kill something.
Why not? If that change came about their melee could see love, /switch cease to exist, and people cease being walking proc gachas

At least if I remember right BM/merc can have lefthand equipped to 2H and swap between that and equipped shield
The only casualty I see is VWs pissy about their focus

Nope, light tank can't do that lmao.
VW, hero, Armsman, paladin, champ, BM, merc etc are all impacted by this change.
People who max out their class also play with at least three or 4 weapons and two shields for their procs.
You clearly have little idea about the game as a whole, clear case of dunning kruger.

But yeah we got it, you want the free rps... And you claim we are the one wanting that... So now we can all ignore your opinion

Tue 29 Dec 2020 8:28 AM by Saroi

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Dec 2020 6:41 AM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Dec 2020 1:47 PM
So basically Sins suppose to be stuck with 3 poisoned weapons and kill something.
Why not? If that change came about their melee could see love, /switch cease to exist, and people cease being walking proc gachas

At least if I remember right BM/merc can have lefthand equipped to 2H and swap between that and equipped shield
The only casualty I see is VWs pissy about their focus

Some love on melee, you mean like up their dmg table? That would give the complain of the millennial. There was a BM here in this thread saying het got PA stun and after stun he had 10% HP left by 2.500 HP. I personally don't believe that but if we assume that happened, then a higher dmg table would mean instant death.

Higher dmg table, especially out of stealth would probably be stronger than having poison swap. Besides the dmg itself, you also reduce the enemies defense.

The 2h slot counts as Mainhand. So if you swap to 2h you not have that weapon in as Offhand. Everyone that has a shield and slam ability will most like be against the /switch command being removed.

BM/Merc use it to slam and then go to offhand for dmg. Classes like Fulltank, Pala, Reaver will most likely run around with a small because of the faster attackspeed for slam or numb and then switch to a medium or large shield with better proc in 1v1 situations, if fighting more people or being hit by arrows the switch to large happens for the better block.

I can see especially Mercs being a big part of the complaints then because they already feel weak in group play because of missing backsnare. Removing switch and making it harder for them to actually stun and peel or do damage etc. would make them even more wanted in groups.

Tue 29 Dec 2020 9:23 AM by easytoremember

Yeah I liked when shadowzerk was a zerk with stealth if he threw all his points into weapon & LA

Tue 29 Dec 2020 10:47 AM by ExcretusMaximus

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Dec 2020 6:41 AM
At least if I remember right BM/merc can have lefthand equipped to 2H and swap between that and equipped shield
The only casualty I see is VWs pissy about their focus

No, they can have a mainhand, a shield or offhand, and another mainhand -- the shield slot is taking the same spot as the offhand is, so if they want to use a shield they either need to manually swap in their offhand, or use a switch macro, just swapping to their second equipped weapon will only change their mainhand.

Wed 30 Dec 2020 5:48 PM by protege

https://youtu.be/nI0_qNFk440

You gonna try to sell the idea that Exo doesn't know what he is doing now, Faturday?

Thu 31 Dec 2020 12:57 AM by Hedien

protege wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Dec 2020 5:48 PM
https://youtu.be/nI0_qNFk440

You gonna try to sell the idea that Exo doesn't know what he is doing now, Faturday?

Wow Beaver, you made him fail his engage. You are a god!

And yet, you had less than 10% life with a failed engage. I would say you were lucky with rng when I watch the absence of dot for quite a bit of time....but it must be to my untrained eyes, it is definitely linked to my inability to analyze.

A Xmas gift for assassin would be well deserved: even if you fail your engage - you must have a shot! Little boost!

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:36 AM by Taniquetil

Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 12:57 AM
Wow Beaver, you made him fail his engage. You are a god!

And yet, you had less than 10% life with a failed engage. I would say you were lucky with rng when I watch the absence of dot for quite a bit of time....but it must be to my untrained eyes, it is definitely linked to my inability to analyze.

Sat/Faturday.

RR3 Warrior beats one of the best NS's on the server with just purge. Please tell us again how you ST'd this same NS allowing you to slam him twice, were allowed 18seconds of attacks without response, used Purge and IP, and still lost at RR9, please. Because I'm pretty sure a PA doesnt offset that.

Anyway, I think it's quite obvious we're done here, you're in full child mode just ignoring statements and facts and creating your own weird narrative, despite 3 attempts to tell you to stop, but hey this was 20 odd pages of nonsense so hey, enjoy.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:40 AM by Hedien

I took backstab, not PA. You are paying such attention to the details, I am curious as to why you forgot that.
But I admitted my wrong, even posted a very representative video showing how easy it is to beat a NS.

I dare to say how unfair it is for the poor NS who has to wait ages to then be destroyed.

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:47 AM by Taniquetil

Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:40 AM
I took backstab, not PA. You are paying such attention to the details, I am curious as to why you forgot that.
But I admitted my wrong, even posted a very representative video showing how easy it is to beat a NS.

I dare to say how unfair it is for the poor NS who has to wait ages to then be destroyed.

Sat/Faturday.

I hope 2021 is kinder to you 👍

Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:46 AM by protege

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:36 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 12:57 AM
Wow Beaver, you made him fail his engage. You are a god!

And yet, you had less than 10% life with a failed engage. I would say you were lucky with rng when I watch the absence of dot for quite a bit of time....but it must be to my untrained eyes, it is definitely linked to my inability to analyze.

Sat/Faturday.

RR3 Warrior beats one of the best NS's on the server with just purge. Please tell us again how you ST'd this same NS allowing you to slam him twice, were allowed 18seconds of attacks without response, used Purge and IP, and still lost at RR9, please. Because I'm pretty sure a PA doesnt offset that.

Anyway, I think it's quite obvious we're done here, you're in full child mode just ignoring statements and facts and creating your own weird narrative, despite 3 attempts to tell you to stop, but hey this was 20 odd pages of nonsense so hey, enjoy.

Rofl I completely forgot that he complained that Exo destroyed him like that..

I can see how people, who lack fundamental knowledge (of their own class and weaknesses of their opponents), believe assassins are overpowered.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:45 AM by protege

Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 12:57 AM
protege wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Dec 2020 5:48 PM
https://youtu.be/nI0_qNFk440

You gonna try to sell the idea that Exo doesn't know what he is doing now, Faturday?

Wow Beaver, you made him fail his engage. You are a god!

And yet, you had less than 10% life with a failed engage. I would say you were lucky with rng when I watch the absence of dot for quite a bit of time....but it must be to my untrained eyes, it is definitely linked to my inability to analyze.

A Xmas gift for assassin would be well deserved: even if you fail your engage - you must have a shot! Little boost!

Sat/Faturday.

Got it.. In order for rr11 assassins to be overpowered, they must get their opener off LOL

Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:48 AM by Hedien

protege wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:45 AM
Got it.. In order for rr11 assassins to be overpowered, they must get their opener off LOL

Wait... you think they are OP without their engage?
I am confused.

Sat/Faturday,

Thu 31 Dec 2020 4:36 AM by protege

Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:48 AM
protege wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:45 AM
Got it.. In order for rr11 assassins to be overpowered, they must get their opener off LOL

Wait... you think they are OP without their engage?
I am confused.

Sat/Faturday,

Yeah backstab definitely won that fight you had vs. Exo.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:15 AM by Hedien

So - I thought to myself, what else can I do to further the cause of assassin to receive a boost?

I reminded myself the rules of video posting showcased by Beaver, let's go through it together (yes, you can hold my hand):
- Must showcase some kind of win.
- Preferably showcase a fight without engage.
- Preferably showcase a fight with numb purge.
- Preferably showcase a fight 2 v 1.

https://streamable.com/0wuad5

So ... I tried to show a combination of both:
- No engage, pop'd them both.
- Killed one. (almost 2... but I am not THAT good... let's be realistic)
- Had a well timed emote at the end from one of the great. (note the artist in me speaking while staying within the leet solo circle established)

I think it speaks for itself, 2 x 7L NS almost died both if I timed my attack and had just a bit better rng. I think it is time for a boost.
What do you think?

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:25 AM by protege

Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:15 AM
So - I thought to myself, what else can I do to further the cause of assassin to receive a boost?

I reminded myself the rules of video posting showcased by Beaver, let's go through it together (yes, you can hold my hand):
- Must showcase some kind of win.
- Preferably showcase a fight without engage.
- Preferably showcase a fight with numb purge.
- Preferably showcase a fight 2 v 1.

https://streamable.com/0wuad5

So ... I tried to show a combination of both:
- No engage, pop'd them both.
- Killed one. (almost 2... but I am not THAT good... let's be realistic)
- Had a well timed emote at the end from one of the great. (note the artist in me speaking while staying within the leet solo circle established)

I think it speaks for itself, 2 x 7L NS almost died both if I timed my attack and had just a bit better rng. I think it is time for a boost.
What do you think?

Sat/Faturday.

Looks pretty balanced to me!

This video is purely a skill issue -- just like my 1v2 vs the 2 nightshades.

No. One. Should. Ever. Lose. 2v1.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:40 AM by Hedien

protege wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:25 AM
This video is purely a skill issue -- just like my 1v2 vs the 2 nightshades.
No. One. Should. Ever. Lose. 2v1.

But... Beaver-sama (or sensei if I dare), I don't get it. You showcased your 2 v 1 like it was proof enough. But my video is not acceptable, I am really confused.

Sat/Faturday

Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:50 AM by protege

Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:40 AM
protege wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:25 AM
This video is purely a skill issue -- just like my 1v2 vs the 2 nightshades.
No. One. Should. Ever. Lose. 2v1.

But... Beaver-sama (or sensei if I dare), I don't get it. You showcased your 2 v 1 like it was proof enough. But my video is not acceptable, I am really confused.

Sat/Faturday

Leave it to you to take that video seriously. rr5 and a rr4 (who doesn't reapply poisons) was a joke.

Edit: Mcnasty, Exo, Lifti, Pox vids however, are not to be taken as jokes.

Do I think I could take out 2 of them if I were equal rank? Probably!

Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:00 AM by Hedien

Ah! I felt your video was put out to prove a point.
I also felt that after Yarna call you out your retracted yourself.

We all know you are better than that.

It's ok, you are forgiven.

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:10 AM by protege

Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:00 AM
Ah! I felt your video was put out to prove a point.
I also felt that after Yarna call you out your retracted yourself.

We all know you are better than that.
It's ok, you are forgiven.

Sat/Faturday.

Don't get me wrong -- either way I beat 2 assassins 1v2. Not saying they were the most skilled players at all.

The other videos, I stand by , however.

For how overpowered everyone says assassins are, though... I was expecting more of an argument than they landed an opening style...

Take care!

Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:20 AM by Hedien

Ok, all other videos are valid except this one. Because obvious skill difference. Right?

I am trying to draw a line on what is too much skill difference, please help me:
- Failing to reapply dots : Ok, too bad.
- Purging numb: ?
- Failing engage: ?
- Using the right styles (Doing PA vs BS on a tank): ?
- Not circle straffing / crossing: ?
- Vanish at end of fight: ? (since you rofl heavily. I was wondering...)

I need to update my skill reference.
Thanks so much Beaver-sensei.

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:35 AM by protege

Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:20 AM
Ok, all other videos are valid except this one. Because obvious skill difference. Right?

I am trying to draw a line on what is too much skill difference, please help me:
- Failing to reapply dots : Ok, too bad.
- Purging numb: ?

The only one who purged numb also got off perf + cd and I didn't purge iirc

- Failing engage: ?

Happens on a stealther, often.

- Using the right styles (Doing PA vs BS on a tank): ?

PA and CD are both valid vs a tank.

- Not circle straffing / crossing: ?

?

- Vanish at end of fight: ? (since you rofl heavily. I was wondering...)

Already went over this 5-10x with you -- if someone who vanishes during a clean 1v1 after they get perf/cd off (and I don't purge) definitely deserves a rofl.

I need to update my skill reference.

As well are you comprehension skills.

Thanks so much Beaver-sensei.

np

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:49 AM by Hedien

Okay cool, so let's summarize:

- Not reapplying dot: Yes, skill issue.
- Purging numb: Yes, skill issue. (I mean whether you purge or not is irrelevant, since this action still exposes yourself to a full duration slam)
- Failing engage: It happens often. But a skilled assassin will have higher engage success no? What would be the engage success ratio for a good assassin on a solo visi?
- PA and BS are the same on a tank: Ok, then enlighten me on the following that I have been shared by Noa:

[BS] you don't purge else you expose yourself to short immune and evade reactive stun. But the counterpart is several rounds of avoidance free poison application and swings. Then probably ticking of said dots due to the above problem.
[PA] you inflict 100 more dmg vs BS. If CD is triggered, enemy purge, long imune and no dot. leaving full avoidance to fight assassin. If numb goes off, you just have 2 dots on you which is manageable and keep your purge for stun / dot clearance before heal.

I mean... to me, that's BS the preferred choice to fight a tank. Oh not only Noa say that, Exo too:

- Circle strafe/crossing to ignore avoidance, a skill or not? Simple question
- Vanish at end of a fight: Ok - it is an attitude problem. I thought I knew that one, just double confirming.

Thanks Beaver Sensei.

Sat/Faturday.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:25 AM by Taniquetil

Have a /hug Faturday, I get the feeling you need it.

Despite all the nonsense, power to you for trying to solo as a visi, keep it up and I hope the GMs continue to try and make it more viable for you in 2021.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:30 AM by Tamy

Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:00 AM
Ah! I felt your video was put out to prove a point.
I also felt that after Yarna call you out your retracted yourself.

We all know you are better than that.
It's ok, you are forgiven.

Sat/Faturday.

When did I call out what?

Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:57 AM by Saroi

Tamy wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:30 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:00 AM
Ah! I felt your video was put out to prove a point.
I also felt that after Yarna call you out your retracted yourself.

We all know you are better than that.
It's ok, you are forgiven.

Sat/Faturday.

When did I call out what?

You always do!!

Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:59 AM by Tamy

Saroi wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:57 AM
Tamy wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:30 AM
Hedien wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:00 AM
Ah! I felt your video was put out to prove a point.
I also felt that after Yarna call you out your retracted yourself.

We all know you are better than that.
It's ok, you are forgiven.

Sat/Faturday.

When did I call out what?

You always do!!

Yarna-Impostor-Gimpy

Thu 31 Dec 2020 11:34 AM by Taniquetil

Tamy wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:59 AM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:57 AM
You always do!!

Yarna-Impostor-Gimpy

Thu 31 Dec 2020 12:51 PM by Saroi

Tamy wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:59 AM
Yarna-Impostor-Gimpy

Thu 31 Dec 2020 12:56 PM by Tamy

@Tani: Haha...we will never know who's THE REAL YARNA!
@Yroniel: IMPOSTERRRRR...or not? who knows...

Tue 5 Jan 2021 5:04 AM by Hedien

Soooo....I see that you intentionally playfully digressed.
I do see it important to reinforce Beaver's video by confirming the skill definition.

Unfortunately, I see that we are in shaky ground:
- Not re-applying poison: lack of skill.
- Failing engage: Well, while it can happen to the best, it is not a display of skillful play either.
- Engaging with PA instead of BS: Based on expert's opinions (Noa/Exo), BS is much better. Hence it is less skilled to open with PA vs. BS.
- Purging numb: It is mostly considered as a noob move which is the opposite of skillful.

Unfortunately, based on the above referential, most of Beaver's video are not showing opponents displaying skillful play.
And... unfortunately, I need to ponder on my own videos. While I followed Beaver criteria, when looking at the above, I faced mostly unskilled players failing engage or purging numb.

Let's agree between us, that videos to be shown in the future should adhere to the above to be considered representative. I really feel in my guts that assassins need a buff, but our arguments are so easily thrown to the bin with anyone using the above logic. We need to work harder my friends.

Happy New Year!