Relic Change - Phoenix Freeshard

Given the recent events around relic raids the following changes will be made within the next week:

1) The home relics will work like any other relic, they must also be placed in one of your 7 home keeps
2) The relic gates will never open
3) Moving a relic behind a relic gate will cause it to drop at the nearest dock

When it goes live all relics will be reset and moved into the 2 closest keeps (those will be reset as well if needed), that would be ailinne, fensalir and renaris for the strength relic and scathaig, avakr and hurbury for the magic relic.

There was some concern voiced over it being too easy to just raid these home relic keeps, we'll let these changes play out for a week or so and if needed adjust it by for example adding special guards to those home relic keeps for each other home keep owned, like it was the case in OF.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:34 PM by Eoril

There will be a lot of actions around the Relics. They will move a lot.
And the player with them. But we all know that's it's a long journey to bring one back.

Could the mage speed 2 (130%) be a new limit carrying the relic ?

Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:41 PM by Peligroso

Hi,
Firstly I will say I think this is a good idea. Admittedly though I think the fights at the relic walls will be missed but it is what it is. Maybe the relics being in the temple on the pillar would be the best option (where you have to stand on the pad to lower the pillar)

The only problem I have with this (and I know its something the gm's here havent done) is the positioning of Fensalir. If you look how close Ailinne, Scath (which is actually too near the bk), Renaris, Hurbury and Arvakr is. Fensalir has always been a pain in the ass to defend as if you get killed and have to run back, its so much further away.
If one or two good set groups of Albs / Hibs roam that area then defenders stand no chance of getting to the keep.

This is coming from an Alb player btw before anyone says i'm moaning just because I play Mid.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:14 PM by Valaraukar

We will see how it goes...

as far as I can see it, it will be a big pain for Mid and big gift to Alb, but anyway..."shrug"

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:47 PM by Stoertebecker

You could just make it harder by placing the original purple relic guards where they belong, but noooooo.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:50 PM by Expfighter

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:15 PM
Given the recent events around relic raids the following changes will be made within the next week:

1) The home relics will work like any other relic, they must also be placed in one of your 7 home keeps
2) The relic gates will never open
3) Moving a relic behind a relic gate will cause it to drop at the nearest dock

When it goes live all relics will be reset and moved into the 2 closest keeps (those will be reset as well if needed), that would be ailinne, fensalir and renaris for the strength relic and scathaig, avakr and hurbury for the magic relic.

There was some concern voiced over it being too easy to just raid these home relic keeps, we'll let these changes play out for a week or so and if needed adjust it by for example adding special guards to those home relic keeps for each other home keep owned, like it was the case in OF.

BAD idea, this was garbage on live and it is a garbage idea now! mid will never have a relic again with this change!

/smh

edit: prediction here: mids will lose both relics day 1, and won't get them back that full first week! Pilz will take one and Polemo/Gios the other in their normal albernia fashion!

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:22 AM by Voso

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:15 PM
Given the recent events around relic raids the following changes will be made within the next week:

1) The home relics will work like any other relic, they must also be placed in one of your 7 home keeps
2) The relic gates will never open
3) Moving a relic behind a relic gate will cause it to drop at the nearest dock

When it goes live all relics will be reset and moved into the 2 closest keeps (those will be reset as well if needed), that would be ailinne, fensalir and renaris for the strength relic and scathaig, avakr and hurbury for the magic relic.

There was some concern voiced over it being too easy to just raid these home relic keeps, we'll let these changes play out for a week or so and if needed adjust it by for example adding special guards to those home relic keeps for each other home keep owned, like it was the case in OF.

This is a terrible idea... How about you just add guards so a solo/group can’t walk in and take it as they did in live. Please stop with the extreme changes and implement small edits overtime.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:12 AM by Hodge

How about include extra troops roaming in the relic keep for every keep that is still up in the relic keeps sequence?

To solve the Midgard issue, allow a new porter with a timer of every 5 minutes or something like porters used to be. This new porter takes you to the relic keep. Str relic town to str relic keep and magic relic town to magic keep. Or use the old relic spots as ports.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 4:39 AM by Runental

Sadly you didn't think about those changes...
This will led to more relic movements indeed, because now the enemy relics can't be stored in those keeps mentioned above anymore, and must be dropped in center or outer keeps which are much easier to take.
But on the other hand, where is the Specialty when relics change all 2-3 days due easier take?
-Relicgate battles: gone
-BG split tactics to close telrport chain keeps: gone
-Heavy Midgard disadvantage due bad Fensalier placement.
-There is allrdy Deepthroat bashing going on in Mid since months,- (see yesterday) - this will now become even more perverse, (I give it max days til the big gangbang begins).

20 Uberguards on temple and Pillar/Guardkill requirement to pick ut up would have solve so much issues instead overhaul the whole system, but well, nope..

Mon 23 Nov 2020 5:25 AM by Tyrlaan

Actually I consider it more thought out.

- I like that the border town zones become safe to xp in.
- Also relic wall gate battles were kinda stupid, reminded me of OF milegates. 30+ catapults making it impossible for any number to get through isn´t tactics IMO.
- And removing the exploit to move a relic into a safe zone (formerly border town, now behind the relic wall) to secure it for the 2 hours timer is good too.

Relics will probably change hands way more often. There´s no bonus for having your own relics so I can see people leaving their relics to enemy realms while holding the enemy relics for the bonuses. If own relics compete with enemy relics for keeps to be stored in, I´d know which I would want to see in the safer place i.e. inner keeps - enemy relics. Don´t think that would be intended.

Also now that all relics would only be protected by a specific keep to be attacked instead of a chain of keeps which allows for the realm to call to arms, I would love to see at least some way to hold onto relics for longer, like every keep with a relic (and their towers) gaining these fast running roaming guards like in OF who would report enemies so that there can be some defense at least. Or even some kind of port into those keeps and towers. These keeps definitely will need some kind of boost over just normal keeps.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:12 AM by Cotea

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:15 PM
Given the recent events around relic raids the following changes will be made within the next week:

1) The home relics will work like any other relic, they must also be placed in one of your 7 home keeps
2) The relic gates will never open
3) Moving a relic behind a relic gate will cause it to drop at the nearest dock

When it goes live all relics will be reset and moved into the 2 closest keeps (those will be reset as well if needed), that would be ailinne, fensalir and renaris for the strength relic and scathaig, avakr and hurbury for the magic relic.

There was some concern voiced over it being too easy to just raid these home relic keeps, we'll let these changes play out for a week or so and if needed adjust it by for example adding special guards to those home relic keeps for each other home keep owned, like it was the case in OF.

On #3, does this include walking around the wall?? i mean if your gonna lose it going through the relic gate, may aswell just run around the wall or even better, stand at the borderkeeps that will 1 shot the whole BG?

Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:12 AM by Astaa

The intention and benefit is that relics should change hands more often, while also countering the situation from the other night where the relic was taken and lost to Hibs by 1fg Mids...although I think that was a bit of a misunderstanding (that was swiftly rectified) and not as serious as some people make out.

I think people should just wait and see how it pans out. One or two aspects might need a polish down the line but overall a promising change.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:39 AM by Runental

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:12 AM
The intention and benefit is that relics should change hands more often

What benefit?

Have 2% more spell damage after 4 days until it switch again?
Nice.. Couldn't care less. With original values it may be a thing, but in this case it's just for the lolz.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:45 AM by Astaa

Runental wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:39 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:12 AM
The intention and benefit is that relics should change hands more often

What benefit?

Have 2% more spell damage for 3 days until it switch again?
Nice.. Couldn't care less. With original values it may be a thing, but in this case it's just for the lolz.

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:12 AM
One or two aspects might need a polish down the line but overall a promising change.

Perhaps, as brought up, a bit of a boost in the benefit of owning relics.

Maybe add some more bonuses and changes, higher craft speed for more relics? Higher exp? Higher base benefit?

Perhaps the more relics you have, then fewer guards you have, maybe a set pool of (random number) 18 higher level guards, that are always shared with however many relics a realm holds. Hold 6 then you have 3 per relic, hold 2 then it's 9 per relic.

Or perhaps add some keep levels, keep the base as level 10 but lose a max level per relic over the base 2, gain a level per relic the realm is missing.

Either way, relics should be moving between realms and they should offer a real benefit for ownership but should also be an attainable target.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:57 AM by Lynee

First up, I appreciate the dev team attention to the topic of relics

It certainly sucks when you spend hours and plats to open a relic gate, just to have someone swoop in and basically gift away a relic (even from your own team, lol). Nevertheless, I always liked the epic encounter, where (mostly) everything had to go right for you to achieve the goal.

Placing the relic outside the relic walls will change the dynamics, relics will probably change hands more often and become less significant because they simply can't be protected as well. This will probably be helpful when the population isn't high and the large scale of opening gates isn't really possible, and I'm interested to see how it pans out.

Also, yes, don't forget about the border keep guards, wouldn't be the first time someone was diddling away the reset timer just outside Svasud Faste or Castle Sauvage.

However, I am too a fan of the relic-pillar-and-guards-at-temple mechanism, also I liked the opening of relic gates on both sides to open up different opportunities. So, if placing relics in keeps isn't so hot after a period of testing I'd be in favour of trying this next

Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:01 AM by Runental

To much, maybe, could, perhaps... It could have been so easy with relic guards and pillars...
I for myself will change BG leads (the few which i do once or twice) drastically to open roam bash only, because enemy keeps ain't that important anymore.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:31 AM by Valaraukar

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:12 AM
The intention and benefit is that relics should change hands more often, while also countering the situation from the other night where the relic was taken and lost to Hibs by 1fg Mids...although I think that was a bit of a misunderstanding (that was swiftly rectified) and not as serious as some people make out.

I think people should just wait and see how it pans out. One or two aspects might need a polish down the line but overall a promising change.

Ahhh so all this mess started from Hibs whining for losing a relic, after keeping all 6 of them for months? Nooooow I understand

Just joking, before it flames up as usual. Anyway the more I think about this change the less I like it, but only time will tell if it is good or not. I agree with Runental that this change will take away all tactics for BG warfare, it will become like a royal rumble where the ones with the largest numbers and best keep defense (not Mid for sure lol) will win the field.
I predict a 6 relics in Alb in about one week, anyone wanna bet?

Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:36 AM by Astaa

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:31 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:12 AM
The intention and benefit is that relics should change hands more often, while also countering the situation from the other night where the relic was taken and lost to Hibs by 1fg Mids...although I think that was a bit of a misunderstanding (that was swiftly rectified) and not as serious as some people make out.

I think people should just wait and see how it pans out. One or two aspects might need a polish down the line but overall a promising change.

Ahhh so all this mess started from Hibs whining for losing a relic, after keeping all 6 of them for months? Nooooow I understand

No, actually it resulted from Albs opening the relic gate then a mid FG ninjrered the relic. After which the FG mid ran straight into the Alb zerg as it came through the gate, the Mid group ran from them, straight into the Hib defence BG, which nabbed the relic and brought it to the relic town, Albs wiped the Mids and the Hibs but went away empty handed. One of the funniest things I have seen in a while. The whole episode meant that we kept the relic, rather unfairly and Albion wasted an evening.

The GMs got the wrong end of the stick and suspended the entire mid group for cross realming but very swiftly corrected that when the facts came out.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:51 AM by Stoertebecker

Runental wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:01 AM
To much, maybe, could, perhaps... It could have been so easy with relic guards and pillars...
I for myself will change BG leads (the few which i do once or twice) drastically to open roam bash only, because enemy keeps ain't that important anymore.

Just took a look on live in Dun Dagda. Chieftain of each Relic-Temple is lvl ~75, 10 guards ~65 around him and 3-4 patrols with 3-4 lvl 60 guards each.
Should be already in game here, just disabled.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:51 AM by Valaraukar

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:36 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:31 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:12 AM
The intention and benefit is that relics should change hands more often, while also countering the situation from the other night where the relic was taken and lost to Hibs by 1fg Mids...although I think that was a bit of a misunderstanding (that was swiftly rectified) and not as serious as some people make out.

I think people should just wait and see how it pans out. One or two aspects might need a polish down the line but overall a promising change.

Ahhh so all this mess started from Hibs whining for losing a relic, after keeping all 6 of them for months? Nooooow I understand

No, actually it resulted from Albs opening the relic gate then a mid FG ninjrered the relic. After which the FG mid ran straight into the Alb zerg as it came through the gate, the Mid group ran from them, straight into the Hib defence BG, which nabbed the relic and brought it to the relic town, Albs wiped the Mids and the Hibs but went away empty handed. One of the funniest things I have seen in a while. The whole episode meant that we kept the relic, rather unfairly and Albion wasted an evening.

The GMs got the wrong end of the stick and suspended the entire mid group for cross realming but very swiftly corrected that when the facts came out.

Ah sorry,my bad I wasn't online that evening and didn't know how it went. I don't see any issue with that, nothing worth such a change in relic warfare anyway, wasting all the gate opening tactics. What could be done to improve the relic gate battles are 2 simple things: increase the range between catas to be able to drop one, maybe 1k loc would be fine, and put a few red/purple guards in the relic keep so a single group cannot snatch it and be gone in few seconds. So easy, with no need to mess with relics location.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:10 PM by Johny Rousquille

I have several questions :

What happens when a bg of 40 people takes easy in Keep lvl 10 ?

More guards will hold out against an army of animists and theurgists.

Wouldn't it be more logical to put a wall between the village and the relic ?

Will Midgar have at least one relic ?

If we keep your idea, would real keep lvl 10 for the relics (example Fensa / Arv, etc ... ) be necessary?

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:56 PM by DJ2000

So this change could mean: (neutral standpoint)
Taking any Keeps, outside a port keep (maybe), became meaningless. No "Keep-Chain" to fulfill.
Only the 2 Relic Keeps are worth anything now (Relic).
Bigger numbers needed to achieve anything (attacking/defending).
Fewer (or none) Fights around all the other Keeps. Invading Force just wants to hit a Relic Keep as hard and fast as possible, why bother with anything else?
Was this Change to also push Siege Battles (RPs) onto the Agenda? There will most likely be 1 big one per day/Realm. Miss that one Siege and u get 0.
So expect a Relic Siege every Day/Night, no point going for anything else. Miss the Siege, miss all the RPs (defending and attacking).
Attacking open field? No. There will be not much running around anyway.
Attacking/Defending at Towers? Only if around Relic Keep (or maybe port Keep). Less Tower Fights overall.
More sitting around in Keep in general.
Relics devalue, as they cannot be defended as good as before.

Invading Forces may have an easier time to take a port Keep. The Defending Force would rather bolster a Relic Keep instead.
Invading Forces may have an easier time to take a Relic Keep, as they have to no longer waste time with other stuff before being able to go for the Relic. (Keep- /Port-Chain)
Defending Forces may not be ready to react to a sudden Relic Raid, as they can happen now at any given point.
3 Realm action may flourish, as the 2 other Main Forces will be busy either Attacking or Defending, which leaves the 3rd with an opportunistic (undefended) opportunity.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:12 PM by Sepplord

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:56 PM
So this change could mean: (neutral standpoint)
Taking any Keeps, outside a port keep (maybe), became meaningless. No "Keep-Chain" to fulfill.
Only the 2 Relic Keeps are worth anything now (Relic).
Bigger numbers needed to achieve anything (attacking/defending).
Fewer (or none) Fights around all the other Keeps. Invading Force just wants to hit a Relic Keep as hard and fast as possible, why bother with anything else?
Was this Change to also push Siege Battles (RPs) onto the Agenda? There will most likely be 1 big one per day/Realm. Miss that one Siege and u get 0.
So expect a Relic Siege every Day/Night, no point going for anything else. Miss the Siege, miss all the RPs (defending and attacking).
Attacking open field? No. There will be not much running around anyway.
Attacking/Defending at Towers? Only if around Relic Keep (or maybe port Keep). Less Tower Fights overall.
More sitting around in Keep in general.
Relics devalue, as they cannot be defended as good as before.

Invading Forces may have an easier time to take a port Keep. The Defending Force would rather bolster a Relic Keep instead.
Invading Forces may have an easier time to take a Relic Keep, as they have to no longer waste time with other stuff before being able to go for the Relic. (Keep- /Port-Chain)
Defending Forces may not be ready to react to a sudden Relic Raid, as they can happen now at any given point.
3 Realm action may flourish, as the 2 other Main Forces will be busy either Attacking or Defending, which leaves the 3rd with an opportunistic (undefended) opportunity.

sounds like you are listing contradiciting/confused arguments...
how can keeps become less meaningful, but at the same time require bigger numbers? If they are menaingless you can take them because less people will care to show up
There are no "relic keeps" anymore...any keep can have a relic (and stacking them closest to you relicwalls might not always be the best option)
Why would there suddenly only be 1siege per day? Completely lost on that reasoning? Easier relictakes = less relicattacks? huh?
Portkeeps could also become a storagepoint for relics as they are easier reached than the other outer keeps and "naturally defended" by the coastguard - for example

Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:12 PM by Forlornhope

Couldn't most of the situation be solved ( or at least the big game effecting part of the situation imo ) by not letting people drop the relic into the relic town behind the unbeatable guards?

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:22 PM by Bry

Considering this is the first time in 2 years something has happened like this, it doesn’t warrant a massive overhaul in location of relics.

The simplest solution would be to add guards and a lord (like at a keep) at the relic temple. The relic can’t be taken from the temple till the lord is killed. That will stop a ninja attempt from a small force and require the intended large force to take a relic.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:26 PM by Nephamael

this will generate lots of action

i think it's a nice idea, even tho the classic relic defense is always a nice special show

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:53 PM by DJ2000

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:12 PM
sounds like you are listing contradiciting/confused arguments...
how can keeps become less meaningful, but at the same time require bigger numbers? If they are menaingless you can take them because less people will care to show up
There are no "relic keeps" anymore...any keep can have a relic (and stacking them closest to you relicwalls might not always be the best option)
Why would there suddenly only be 1siege per day? Completely lost on that reasoning? Easier relictakes = less relicattacks? huh?
Portkeeps could also become a storagepoint for relics as they are easier reached than the other outer keeps and "naturally defended" by the coastguard - for example

Not really, no.

You ask, how can keeps become less meaningful, but at the same time require bigger numbers?
- Keeps that have no Relic in them are meaningless now. Why go there losing time/element of surprise if they provide no port or relic?
- Keeps that were part of the "Opening Gate" Mechanic are meaningless now, as such a thing does not exist anymore.
- The Keeps that have still some worth (port/relic), will have your defenders in it. All of them. If you dont have enough defenders for a port keep, you simply ignore it (as both sides). As by experience, the amount of attackers needed to take a Keep should be far higher than the number of defenders to take it.
- If you lack the numbers to be an aggressor, then why would you think you could take any other enemy Keep without leaving your Keeps/relics exposed? If you are already lacking in numbers it would be detrimental to put them at the wrong place or to split them even further. Less numbers = less options.
Before this change even smaller BGs could go for some towers or Keeps without ever risking their Relics as an immediate reaction.

You said, If they are menaingless you can take them because less people will care to show up.
- i agree, i said the same that these scenarios could happen.
- meaningless for defenders to show up, could also mean meaningless for attackers to go for it (unless its a Relic keep or port keep)
- If the invaders had enough players to go for the relic, they might waste time by raiding non-port/non-relic Keeps, possibly losing the window to take the relic and/or grant the defending Force enough time to build up.

You noted, There are no "relic keeps" anymore...any keep can have a relic (and stacking them closest to you relicwalls might not always be the best option).
- a "Relic Keep" is a Keep that has a Relic in it. should be obvious. Yes, in theory it could be any Keep.

You remarked, Why would there suddenly only be 1siege per day? Completely lost on that reasoning? Easier relictakes = less relicattacks? huh?
- Raiding empty Keeps, is not a Siege. A siege would be Players on both sides.
The majority of these Sieges will be in/around Keeps with Relics. These Battles are usually not over within 15 min. In fact, these big Sieges usually take a while to be over with (looping/wiping/etc.) ~ 1h+
Unless you are playing 4+hrs per day, there will be most likely be only 1 big siege per Day for a realm (attacking or defending) in your playtime that you can take part in.
I never said it will be limited to only 1, but odds are you will not be around for the other to happen or to start/end.
Could a Force wipe on an attack to then proceed to Def against the other Force? Yes. In theory this can happen. Depends on how long these Sieges would take there could be a lot of stuff happening, but chances are you would have to play way longer than 6-8hrs to be part of most of it.
If you don't have the numbers to attack yourself? You might have to remain defending, as its rather easy to snatch a relic if the keep is undefended. Which leads me back to: raiding empty keeps is not a Siege. So you are stuck to your 1-2 points of Defense (relics) if you don't have the numbers..

You said, Portkeeps could also become a storagepoint for relics as they are easier reached than the other outer keeps and "naturally defended" by the coastguard - for example.
- Yes, but how does this correlate to anything i said? That Keeps become meaningless? If so, then It's as you said. non-port+non-relic Keeps are in general out of the picture.

My hope is that there will be supplementary changes after the test period to address some downsides of these changes, to help facilitate a more aggressive Playstyle around these scenarios, than simply hugging your keeps (which i fear will be the general playstyle for any realm that lacks numbers)

Mon 23 Nov 2020 4:40 PM by Johny Rousquille

Put a Wall between the reliquary and the village with impossibility to pass with the relic in the inventory and the problem is solved without messing up the whole BG system

and in the square it creates do not count the number of players in the rvr /u area.

#BuildtheWall !

Mon 23 Nov 2020 5:06 PM by Sepplord

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:53 PM
[...]

Thanks for the explanantions, i get what you mean a bit better now, though i still disagree on the consensus

Your whole reasoning is based upon the claim that every tower / Keep that was raided before belonged to a bigger plan of taking enemy relics. Which i highly doubt.
Another thing is that it seems you are mostly thinking aobut balanced realms having 2relics each, not one having 4-6. Before a realm could have 5relics and still didn't have a relic in an outer-keep. That number is now only at 3.

You might be right to some degree still, because even if the endgoal wasn't always taking a relic, it probably often was in the back of peoples heads that IF it goes well then at the end the possibility to take relics should be there, while now it is more of a binary decision between "go for relic / just raid something"

Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:08 PM by DJ2000

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 5:06 PM
Thanks for the explanantions, i get what you mean a bit better now, though i still disagree on the consensus

The whole point of a discussion. All fair, all fine.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 5:06 PM
Your whole reasoning is based upon the claim that every tower / Keep that was raided before belonged to a bigger plan of taking enemy relics. Which i highly doubt.

I already mentioned that before this change, any smaller numbers BG could go for anything, any Towers or Keeps, there would be no immediate danger to any of your important Relics/Gates. So aggressive play (even with lower numbers) was not detrimental.
Taking a bunch of towers without any clear Goal (or a rather uninteresting keep) did not have to be a part of a bigger picture, it could have been just trying to start "something"/ stir up some action.

With this change, being the small number BG, going aggressive would leave anything worthwhile exposed to an(y) Enemy, without actually endangering any other Force.
And assuming the BG would take the same route (bunch of Towers etc.) as mentioned above, would lead to 0 benefit to your own BG, while playing aggressive.

Being Opportunistic will be the way to go. Playing aggressive is no longer.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 5:06 PM
Another thing is that it seems you are mostly thinking aobut balanced realms having 2relics each, not one having 4-6. Before a realm could have 5relics and still didn't have a relic in an outer-keep. That number is now only at 3.

A good point.
In a balanced Server, this would never happen.
But Phoenix is not a balanced Server.(why or how is not part of the point here).

If a Realm is able to have enough Numbers to stretch itself against 2 invading Realms, while having 3 Relic-Keeps to defend, up to a point where u can even go aggressive to gain another 2 Relics, is something that would end this experiment at that very point.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 10:00 PM by Stoertebecker

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:26 PM
this will generate lots of action i think it's a nice idea, even tho the classic relic defense is always a nice special show

Yesterday evening, and there were more on the left side and on the walls

Mon 23 Nov 2020 10:14 PM by Valaraukar

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 10:00 PM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:26 PM
this will generate lots of action i think it's a nice idea, even tho the classic relic defense is always a nice special show

Yesterday evening, and there were more on the left side and on the walls

increase the minimum distance between catapults!

Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:10 PM by Stoertebecker

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 10:14 PM

increase the minimum distance between catapults!

We have problems getting 100 ppl in a BG, but 100 catapults....yes, we can

Tue 24 Nov 2020 2:08 PM by Wakanidoo

Again a great idea from the genius Staff: Midgard Big Nerf, never we would have relics now.
Why to not simply delete Midgard realm ?

Tue 24 Nov 2020 4:10 PM by Gloti

They want to see you suffer.

An idea could be to reset the relics every week.

Tue 24 Nov 2020 4:35 PM by Sepplord

Is there already someone from each realm claiming this change is targetted towards their realm and how it hits them the hardest?

If someone would sum up all arguments from the last pages i am sure we would find some hilarious contradictions

Fri 27 Nov 2020 12:47 AM by mattymc

Well, this was a disaster on live -- no idea why anyone thinks this will be better here. Guess there could be more movement as whoever has the numbers atm can move 'em easier.
Rearranging deck chairs, etc, but who knows.

Fri 27 Nov 2020 8:30 AM by Astaa

I can see why they are doing it and I think that at face value it's a great idea.

However...The Alb zerg outnumbers both the Hib and Mid BGs combined and they have by far and away the most accessible siege abilities, spread evenly over classes. It's now got to the point that Hib BG leaders are logging off because there is just no reason to bother defending Hibernia, let alone attacking Albion.

The devs have nerfed Hibernia (yes, all archers, except Scouts didn't get nerfed as much as rangers) in the past down to numbers of people playing a class, that was given as the reason. What are they proposing to do about the huge differences in overall population? Edit, yes there is a very welcome GTAOE/necro cheese fix but it doesn't go far enough.

A simple fix for GTAOE would have been to give GTAOE a proper LOS check, where the caster has to have LOS with the groundtarget to cast on it, this would have also fixed pre-nerf volley while avoiding the handful of other affects removing /groundassist has. The check is already in game anyway because when an animist casts a shroom there is a ground target LOS check.

The 4 hour window to switch realms certainly doesn't help and we end up with a domino effect where a few relic tourists switch to Alb, which makes it even harder to defend, then there is a flurry, which makes it impossible. The game becomes frustrating, rather than fun. This leads to population loss, which is critical to DAOC. Once the amount of players leaving outnumbers the amount of new players then you have a big problem, it is what happened to live and look at the state of that now! I'm not saying that is happening now, I don't have access to the numbers but it certainly feels as though it is starting.

There needs to be a loyalty buff that builds over time, say .5% bonus to RPs, exp and feathers every 24 hours of playing one realm exclusively, give it a maximum of say 20 days, so that after 20 days of realm loyalty you are on 10% extra bonus, you lose that bonus from any RvR activity on a different realm, at which point it starts again for the realm you are currently playing. Maybe add a grace period based on RPs earned or something (say 20k) to make the loss of the buff a little less harsh/a little more flexible.

You could also have some sort of dynamic buff based on RvR zone population that changes dynamically, depending on how many of each side is in the frontier, if there are 300 Albs, 150 HIbs and 100 Mids then use the Albion population as the base number and boost the other realms damage/healing by the percentage difference, though I am not sure how that would work, technically and would probably have too much of an impact on 8v8, small man and solo. Maybe add a rule that means you only get the bonus when fighting in the vicinity of a tower or keep.

Tue 1 Dec 2020 10:54 AM by Servelle

Hum you feel hib nerfed ?
They took the relic in Caer Boldiam yesterday in like 20 mn without cutting any port before that.
A zerg of about 110 if i remember.
And talking about gtaoe without los, the lord room was spammed with gtaoe all the time, door closed. (no need of a necro to set a ground target)
So stop crying about hib nerfed please.

Tue 1 Dec 2020 4:22 PM by Astaa

Yes. they literally nerfed rangers more than scouts, by a different percentage, despite the fact that as far as archery goes, they are both pretty much the same in a siege when cleric or druid buffed.

The GT nerf is for all realms too, not Albion, it's just Albion are incapable of laying GT without cheesing it with a necro so it affects them more. Learn to use GT, or don't

Plenty more to fix in Alb though! The more relic tourists that pour into Alb the higher chance of that happening, logically, as they nerf based on numbers! right?

Wed 2 Dec 2020 6:13 PM by Pingyongyang

Does anyone know when this gets patched in?

Wed 2 Dec 2020 7:33 PM by Astaa

They said they hoped to have the relic change in some time this week, the GT cheese fix next week.

Wed 2 Dec 2020 8:32 PM by Peppar

think its a bad ide mid barely hold on to relic as it is,
now remove that relic gate obstacle and do this, will make it worse
why not just place guards in relic area,
make it so you need to stand on pad 1-2 fg for amount of time for relic to get lowered
also if a realm is underpop raise level of those guards

Wed 2 Dec 2020 8:41 PM by Astaa

afaik, there are additional guards, can't remember the exact details.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 10:56 AM by

Uthred

Finally. The change will go live tomorrow (99% sure).

Regarding your feedback and the missing tactics when relics are stored in regular keeps, the change will be like this:

For easier understanding, i will use Hibernia as an example (I knew it, Uthred is hib-biased!!!!!111).

The two hibernian relics will be stored in Ailinne and Scathaig. For each of the 5 remaining hibernian keeps, that are owned by Hibernia, there will spawn special relic guards in both of these two keeps. Relic guards will have more HP and hit harder than regular keep guards, but will have for the start no extra abilities. This may change depending on the following relic raids and how easy it might be to take such a keep. There will be about 3-4 different spawn location inside and outside the keeps where those guards will be located.

It will always be 5 guards per spawn, one for each of the 5 remaining hibernian keeps, if they are owned by Hibernia. If for example Crauchon is taken by an enemy realm, there will only be 4 relic guards per spawn. The more keeps are raided before the home relic keep is under siege, the less relic guards will be there. Towers will not have an impact on the numbers of relic guards.

If Hibernia made a succesfull relic raid themself and captured an enemy relic, it has to be stored in one of the 5 remaining keeps. Keeps that hold an enemy relic will not get the extra relic guards. Those will only spawn in the two home relic keeps.

For Midgard and Albion the two home relic keeps are Fensa/Arvakr and Renaris/Hurbury.

Below are some examples how the relic guards will look like. From left to right: Hib, Mid, Alb. The size doesnt matter in this case.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 11:55 AM by DJ2000

Seems reasonable, lets see how it pans out. Ty Uthred for the info/time/work.

Some questions though; lets stay with the Hib example.

- Is it possible for Hibernia (or other Realms) to store their OWN Relics at other Keeps, or are they FIXED to Dun Ailinne and Dun Scaithag?
- Would it be possible, for example, to put the 2 Hib Relics in Dun Ailinne and Dun Nged (or any other combination)?
- Losing all 5 "other" Keeps would reduce the Guards to 0. Why not make it 6 Guards (+1 for the Relic Keep itself)?
- How long will be the Guards Leash/Aggro Range? (Not asking for units, just the type of behavior)?
- Will they react to Pets entering the Keep?

Thu 3 Dec 2020 1:12 PM by Runental

Old Frontiers ruleset... Well, why not.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 1:43 PM by

gruenesschaf

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 11:55 AM
- Is it possible for Hibernia (or other Realms) to store their OWN Relics at other Keeps, or are they FIXED to Dun Ailinne and Dun Scaithag?
- Would it be possible, for example, to put the 2 Hib Relics in Dun Ailinne and Dun Nged (or any other combination)?
- Losing all 5 "other" Keeps would reduce the Guards to 0. Why not make it 6 Guards (+1 for the Relic Keep itself)?
- How long will be the Guards Leash/Aggro Range? (Not asking for units, just the type of behavior)?
- Will they react to Pets entering the Keep?

The mentioned keeps will become / contain the home relic pads, scathaig will be the power home relic pad, ailinne will be the strength home relic pad, same for hurbury and renaris and arvakr and fensalir.
That means only your home relics can and must be stored there: hib cannot put the spear in any keep but ailinne, hib cannot put the cauldron in any keep but scathaig, hib cannot put any relic except the cauldron in scathaig etc.

As for 6 guards, the keep lord is pretty much the 6th guard.

They will have normal guard behavior, just be a bit beefier (less than the lord) and deal more melee damage (comparable or maybe even more than the lord). The latter will be reduced a bit if and when they receive special abilities but for now the intention is to make them dangerous to the point that you want to kill them before the lord and not ignore them and just blasting the lord down.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 2:40 PM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 1:43 PM
... That means only your home relics can and must be stored there: hib cannot put the spear in any keep but ailinne, hib cannot put the cauldron in any keep but scathaig, hib cannot put any relic except the cauldron in scathaig etc.

Ok, figured this would be the case.
Just wanted to be sure.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 1:43 PM
As for 6 guards, the keep lord is pretty much the 6th guard.

I pretty much knew this would be your answer, and i see your point.
Will have to wait and see.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 1:43 PM
... but for now the intention is to make them dangerous to the point that you want to kill them before the lord and not ignore them and just blasting the lord down.

fair enough.

Plz, check the flag for "Confusion" immunity on these Guards.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 3:30 PM by Sepplord

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 2:40 PM
Plz, check the flag for "Confusion" immunity on these Guards.

Good call...

Besides that, do i udnerstand it right, that the additional guards will be located in the lordroom and be part of the lord-fight?
So no effect on the door opening phases right?

Thu 3 Dec 2020 3:50 PM by

Uthred

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 10:56 AM
There will be about 3-4 different spawn location inside and outside the keeps where those guards will be located.

One spawn will be the lord room, but there will be more spawn points.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 4:07 PM by Astaa

Looking good!

Thu 3 Dec 2020 4:13 PM by Sagz

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 1:43 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 11:55 AM
They will have normal guard behavior, just be a bit beefier (less than the lord) and deal more melee damage (comparable or maybe even more than the lord). The latter will be reduced a bit if and when they receive special abilities but for now the intention is to make them dangerous to the point that you want to kill them before the lord and not ignore them and just blasting the lord down.

Will the Relic guards be only melee? Or will some have a caster option? Or an archer option? I think adding a variety would make it interesting.

Also, since there are a lot of people who either troll the BG or have no clue what they are doing, is there a rest timer like the Lord if they move away from the keep or outside the keep etc?

Fun change though.

Thu 3 Dec 2020 4:23 PM by Nephamael

I have to say that Elf Blade or Rapier? looks terrific, can we have it as a BP skin?

Thu 3 Dec 2020 4:31 PM by Kwall0311

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 4:23 PM
I have to say that Elf Blade or Rapier? looks terrific, can we have it as a BP skin?

Champion weapon skins

Yes, add them please. And for those who were crying about everyone using the same one, make them class specific ; )

Thu 3 Dec 2020 4:46 PM by Sepplord

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 3:50 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Dec 2020 10:56 AM
There will be about 3-4 different spawn location inside and outside the keeps where those guards will be located.
One spawn will be the lord room, but there will be more spawn points.

Ah yes, thanks for the additional mention. I missed that on the first read, sorry

Thu 3 Dec 2020 6:02 PM by Pingyongyang

From Mid's point of view it will be much harder to defend home relics, but a bit easier to take them back from Nged / Bold rather than Hurbury / Ailinne.

Fri 4 Dec 2020 10:54 AM by Johny Rousquille

My opinion matters little, I have the impression, but I think we are regressing in the advancement of BG RvR,

More Guard for more pve? what will we concretely get from the xp? and some gold coin?

If there is only Fensalir (Ailline) and/or Arv (Scat) left, there will be no Champion ? (5 champions = 5 Keep, you said)

So basically it will be necessary to take 5 keep to make the strong reliquary without Champion. In that sense, Champion just prevents people from not focusing on Fensalir or Arv right away. So by being 170/200 in a BG, which is not the case for some people, it will be necessary to drop all the Keeps to have Fensalir or Arv without champions.

To take or bring back a relic brings nothing directly, I mean by the, feathers, claw, xp, rps, a by a title and a possible bonus on the number of days of detention, but no immediate gain,

Moreover it will be much more difficult to establish a teleport since only one keep will not have a relick, and if it is Crauchon or Beno at the time say almost impossible to take it in normal time.

I already hear people telling me, but on official it didn't work.
But since the time, I think everyone has understood that we are not on the official.

I'm not here to cry or to troll, I'm trying to understand why you didn't just make a wall system that prevents you from going to the village with the relic in the inventory.

You make it more difficult for some people and more or less the same for others.

Here you pay the fool of 8 people who changed kingdoms just to avoid admitting to having lost their relic.

Thank you for listening to these people, for making them credible, for giving them time to work and to invest in this "new" system.

Johny Rousquille

Fri 4 Dec 2020 2:38 PM by Expfighter

Johny Rousquille wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Dec 2020 10:54 AM
My opinion matters little, I have the impression, but I think we are regressing in the advancement of BG RvR,

More Guard for more pve? what will we concretely get from the xp? and some gold coin?

If there is only Fensalir (Ailline) and/or Arv (Scat) left, there will be no Champion ? (5 champions = 5 Keep, you said)

So basically it will be necessary to take 5 keep to make the strong reliquary without Champion. In that sense, Champion just prevents people from not focusing on Fensalir or Arv right away. So by being 170/200 in a BG, which is not the case for some people, it will be necessary to drop all the Keeps to have Fensalir or Arv without champions.

To take or bring back a relic brings nothing directly, I mean by the, feathers, claw, xp, rps, a by a title and a possible bonus on the number of days of detention, but no immediate gain,

Moreover it will be much more difficult to establish a teleport since only one keep will not have a relick, and if it is Crauchon or Beno at the time say almost impossible to take it in normal time.

I already hear people telling me, but on official it didn't work.
But since the time, I think everyone has understood that we are not on the official.

I'm not here to cry or to troll, I'm trying to understand why you didn't just make a wall system that prevents you from going to the village with the relic in the inventory.

You make it more difficult for some people and more or less the same for others.

Here you pay the fool of 8 people who changed kingdoms just to avoid admitting to having lost their relic.

Thank you for listening to these people, for making them credible, for giving them time to work and to invest in this "new" system.

Johny Rousquille

these changes were garbage on live and will be garbage here, staff does not learn from the mistakes made on live!

Fri 4 Dec 2020 5:58 PM by Pingyongyang

Can we please have a straw poll did people enjoy RVR more in early summer or now?

I bet more people enjoyed using more rams and relics changing hands more. There was server drama. Midgard could actually steal relics once in awhile.

Doesn't anyone else thinks this whole complete restructuring of relics happened because they wanted to reward people more for defending and rangers being too strong being a bit nuts?

Those are pretty weak reasons to drastically change everything to make relics stale and frankly nearly impossible for Mids to take.

Even if Mid couldn't hold relics as long at least we could get them.

I had a post about having inverse number of rams compared to relics so realm with less relics could use more rams nobody really cared.

To end post positively ending GT assist is great, nerfing archers is great. Need more smaller positive steps like that to add up to good change.