Useless Speclines - Phoenix Freeshard

I was wondering if we could get a complete list of the speclines that are going to be considered useless. What some may consider useless may not be the same as others. Will there be a separate vote to decide which speclines will be chosen for adjustment?

My thoughts on the list:

Hibernia:
Mentalist - Mentalism
Enchanter - Enchantments
Druid - Nature
Bard - Blades/Blunt
Warden - Blades/Blunt

Albion:
Armsman - Crossbow
Cleric - Smite(on the border)
Necromancer - Painworking(very niche)
Reaver - Slash/Thrust/Crush
Scout - Slash/Thrust
Sorcerer - Matter(not really that bad)
Wizard - Fire Magic

Midgard:
Shaman - Mending
Spiritmaster - Summoning
Warrior - Thrown Weapons
(Midgard has most well rounded classes main issue with sword/axe not competing w/hammer)

**Additional contender**
All Realms - Parry

Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:55 PM by Astaa

I think heavy tanks have a problem in general with the amount of points they need to spend on passive RAs (mostly det) to even border on being useful. They are largely pointless in siege or zerg RvR. Which is a shame.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:58 PM by Noashakra

Mentalism is nice as a second spec. All mentalists light spec have mentalism as a second spec.
How nature is useless? In optimized group, you have at least one heal/nature.
Barde blade useless? Watch azteqq playing his bard

It's not usless to have a side snare and if people don't spec blade higher, it's because of not enough points for group spec, not because the line is useless.
Warden same thing,

I won't even go to the other claims.

Is this post serious?

Tue 13 Oct 2020 6:57 PM by Bradekes

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:58 PM
Mentalism is nice as a second spec. All mentalists light spec have mentalism as a second spec.
How nature is useless? In optimized group, you have at least one heal/nature.
Barde blade useless? Watch azteqq playing his bard It's not usless to have a side snare and if people don't spec blade higher, it's because of not enough points for group spec, not because the line is useless.
Warden same thing,

I won't even go to the other claims.

Is this post serious?

Yes it's serious did you do the October Survey?

They want to make the unused specs usable.. like to spec 40-50 in not to put 10 points in for sidesnare or 28points in for mezz cure. Maybe useless is a bad adjective to use as any spec can have it's uses, but a whole line being defined usable by having a level 10 ability that is useful doesn't really add up my friend.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 7:41 PM by Noashakra

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 6:57 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:58 PM
Mentalism is nice as a second spec. All mentalists light spec have mentalism as a second spec.
How nature is useless? In optimized group, you have at least one heal/nature.
Barde blade useless? Watch azteqq playing his bard It's not usless to have a side snare and if people don't spec blade higher, it's because of not enough points for group spec, not because the line is useless.
Warden same thing,

I won't even go to the other claims.

Is this post serious?

Yes it's serious did you do the October Survey?

They want to make the unused specs usable.. like to spec 40-50 in not to put 10 points in for sidesnare or 28points in for mezz cure. Maybe useless is a bad adjective to use as any spec can have it's uses, but a whole line being defined usable by having a level 10 ability that is useful doesn't really add up my friend.

Blade is used by all peelers. Crush you can make a case, nobody is crush on hib.
But the blade line is fine. For the BM, it's perfect. Debuff atk speed + side snare combined with the rear dual snare, perfect combo.
If some classes don't have the points to spend in it, it's because their role and other spec are more important. Buffing blade and crush will not change the fact wardens and bards will not put points inside the line.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 7:43 PM by IdiamVonGawaine

Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:55 PM
I think heavy tanks have a problem in general with the amount of points they need to spend on passive RAs (mostly det) to even border on being useful. They are largely pointless in siege or zerg RvR. Which is a shame.

Surely spending 22 realm points on a single passive so you can be mezzed, rooted, and stunned into uselessness for only 20% of the total time in order to be then snared and diseased into uselessness isn't problematic...

Tue 13 Oct 2020 7:48 PM by Bradekes

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 7:41 PM
Blade is used by all peelers. Crush you can make a case, nobody is crush on hib.
But the blade line is fine. For the BM, it's perfect. Debuff atk speed + side snare combined with the rear dual snare, perfect combo.
If some classes don't have the points to spend in it, it's because their role and other spec are more important. Buffing blade and crush will not change the fact wardens and bards will not put points inside the line.

Well it really isn't an opinion. If you read the question:
------------
Do you think useless speclines should be changed to make them viable main specs?
Examples include enchanting, mentalism, summoning, smiting

Yes: 956/1451 (65%)
No: 473/1451 (32%)
---‐-------
Would you consider a Bard able to make blades their main spec? This is not my interpretation to the question asked in the survey, this is verbatim. I think my assessment is valid.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 8:07 PM by Noashakra

Depends, you can go battle bard, check azteqq videos like I said.
Otherwise, you can't spec blade because you will lose either le red speed or the yellow/red mez. And you need that to play in group.

Blade is completely fine as a line. NS, rangers and BM spec in blade.
The problem with bards, is not he blade line, it's the fact their damage table is crap, str is not a stat that grows for them when they level up, and the spec you need to group require you to have 10 or less in blade.
Even if you boost blade for bard, they will not spec into it because they would gimp their groups. They are not damage dealers, they rupt, CC and sometimes heal. The blade spec is perfectly fine.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 8:15 PM by imweasel

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:01 PM
I was wondering if we could get a complete list of the speclines that are going to be considered useless. What some may consider useless may not be the same as others. Will there be a separate vote to decide which speclines will be chosen for adjustment?

My thoughts on the list:

Hibernia:
Mentalist - Mentalism
Enchanter - Enchantments
Druid - Nature
Bard - Blades/Blunt
Warden - Blades/Blunt

Albion:
Armsman - Crossbow
Cleric - Smite(on the border)
Necromancer - Painworking(very niche)
Reaver - Slash/Thrust/Crush
Scout - Slash/Thrust
Sorcerer - Matter(not really that bad)
Wizard - Fire Magic

Midgard:
Shaman - Mending
Spiritmaster - Summoning
Warrior - Thrown Weapons
(Midgard has most well rounded classes main issue with sword/axe not competing w/hammer)

For the blades/blunt/pierce in hib, I would say the blunt is the only worthless spec line. To make it worth for a warden to spec will require a boost in damage tables. The rest of your outlay for hib is good for now.

For alb, I agree that crossbow is worthless. I don't know how you make it viable enough for an armsman to spec in it. I don't think you can do anything about the reaver being able to spec in slash or thrust. Flex is to good. You would have to nerf flex or give them a completely different slash/thrust line to spec in. For scouts it will require a new damage table to make it viable to spec a melee skill. I agree with you on necro, wizard and cleric. I think sorc is fine.

I agree with the mid picks. However axe isn't that bad but slash is horribad.

Good list.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 8:30 PM by Bradekes

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 8:07 PM
Depends, you can go battle bard, check azteqq videos like I said.
Otherwise, you can't spec blade because you will lose either le red speed or the yellow/red mez. And you need that to play in group.

Blade is completely fine as a line. NS, rangers and BM spec in blade.
The problem with bards, is not he blade line, it's the fact their damage table is crap, str is not a stat that grows for them when they level up, and the spec you need to group require you to have 10 or less in blade.
Even if you boost blade for bard, they will not spec into it because they would gimp their groups. They are not damage dealers, they rupt, CC and sometimes heal. The blade spec is perfectly fine.

I don't think blades is a bad spec, but it is not a viable main spec for only bard and warden. I've seen azteqq's video but I think you would agree the majority of points on their spec is most likely music, not blades. Again validating the fact that for Warden & Bard only, blades is not a viable main spec.

They can adjust styles solely for bard to give them added effects that would fit the bard and make the spec viable for a main spec. It's not really a big deal if they do. As long as it is balanced and fun for everyone. That's the whole point of this idea isn't it?

Tue 13 Oct 2020 8:53 PM by Noashakra

The problem is not the spec line, it's the fact they are "healers".
It's by design that their damage table is crap and their str doesn't increase when they level up. Changing the blade line will not change a thing.
The line is perfectly fine.
Why a the bard, a class that can heal, has endu song, amnesia, speed song and CC, should also be a damage dealer...

Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:17 PM by Bradekes

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 8:53 PM
The problem is not the spec line, it's the fact they are "healers".
It's by design that their damage table is crap and their str doesn't increase when they level up. Changing the blade line will not change a thing.
The line is perfectly fine.
Why a the bard, a class that can heal, has endu song, amnesia, speed song and CC, should also be a damage dealer...

Well you must be part of 35% who voted no. This thread is for the 65% who voted yes.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:29 PM by Noashakra

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:17 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 8:53 PM
The problem is not the spec line, it's the fact they are "healers".
It's by design that their damage table is crap and their str doesn't increase when they level up. Changing the blade line will not change a thing.
The line is perfectly fine.
Why a the bard, a class that can heal, has endu song, amnesia, speed song and CC, should also be a damage dealer...

Well you must be part of 35% who voted no. This thread is for the 65% who voted yes.

Nobody except you find the blade spec useless.
Bards are not tanks, and will always do crap damage, so deal with it.

The fact you call the nature druid line useless shows you have no idea about hibernia.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:42 PM by Bradekes

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:29 PM
Nobody except you find the blade spec useless.
Bards are not tanks, and will always do crap damage, so deal with it.

The fact you call the nature druid line useless shows you have no idea about hibernia.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Bard blade spec fits the bill of not being a viable main spec. That's a fact you are not disagreeing with but you are spinning the idea by saying it has it's uses because the level 10 style is a snare.

The whole point of enhancing the specs that don't make viable main specs is indeed to make them viable main specs. Unless you can make the case that Bard can indeed be successful with blades as a main spec, I have nothing further to discuss with you on this topic.

If you'd like to talk about any of the other specs I've mentioned then I will happily discuss that!

If that topic is nature spec on druid we can totally discuss that. Nature spec only has roots that make it viable. A green very low level pet(that is grey to you from 32-40) is pathetic and having no baseline damage is pathetic. Having no aoe dot is pathetic.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:48 PM by Noashakra

Dude, the bard is by design part of the group of the druid and warden. Their base damage suck and will always suck.

They are support, and you wanting them to be damage dealer will not happen. The blade line is fine, and if they want to be battle bard, they can do it. No group will ever pick them up, but they can still do it.

I am sorry but is the blade line different for Hero, BM, Champion, Ranger, NS and Bard? It isn't. So the blade line isn't the problem, you can stop now. The bard is a support, and it will always have support kind of damage.

Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:56 PM by Bradekes

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:48 PM
Ignored

Tue 13 Oct 2020 10:23 PM by easytoremember

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 9:48 PM
I am sorry but is the blade line different for Hero, BM, Champion, Ranger, NS and Bard? It isn't. So the blade line isn't the problem, you can stop now. The bard is a support, and it will always have support kind of damage.

the magic of a custom server lets there be a difference if you want to make it happen

On the concern of messing with current specs that put a little amount of points into blades you just make the goodies deeper in the line, and any significant damage gains, if they're going to go for that angle, pick up later in the line so that the scaling is not linear and the damage table is not shifted

Tue 13 Oct 2020 11:02 PM by DJ2000

Is this supposed to be a change to make them Main spec viable (like the Earth line-Wizard) or just to be more attractive as a sub spec?
For the sake of discussion i pretend that its the "Main spec" variant.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:01 PM
Hibernia:
Mentalist - Mentalism
Enchanter - Enchantments
Druid - Nature

Mentalist - Mentalism: Current Theme Grp-Support.
Damage: A DD-Spell maybe with a AoE Variant. Most likely a 3s comb. Spell.?
Support: Spread-Heals and/or Grp-Heals would have to be in this Line.?
Utility: A pretty Long Single Target Mezz with De-Mezz and a confusion Spell for Pets is already inside, maybe castable amnesia?

Enchanter - Enchantments: Current Theme Pet Focus.
Damage: A DD-Spell maybe with a AoE Variant. Most likely a 3s comb. Spell.
Support: Currently only Pet buffs. Either increase the Buff values or add more Buffs for the Pet. Grp related maybe channel heal (or support) spells through the pet.
Utility: Dmg Add already in Line. Maybe Mezz / Root dampener or Bladeturn can be added?

Druid - Nature: current Theme Pet-Rupt
Damage: Increase the DoT Value, eventhough i dont want more AoE DoTs in the Game, but this could be the missing 2nd AoE DoT class for Hib with another Dmg Type.
Support: Dmg Shield increase Value. Add some MHB Spell in Line? Pet buffs Speed and Det?
Utility: Increase Pet Level. Add Disease Spell. maybe even AoE Disease? De-Root Spell maybe? Unbreakable Snare?

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:01 PM
Albion:
Cleric - Smite(on the border)
Necromancer - Painworking(very niche)
Sorcerer - Matter(not really that bad)
Wizard - Fire Magic

Cleric - Smite: current Theme Stun Nuker (almost a Thane + stun spell)
Damage: Up the Values and Range, lower cast times and/or cooldowns. Live added some Heal conversion into the spells.
Support: Dmg Add is fine. Add in some Self Anti-Melee-Buffs (abs or resist)
Utility: PbAoe Inst on shorter Cooldown, Maybe castable PbAoE. Cleric only Melee Crush styles?

Ncreomancer - Painworking: current theme AoE Dot - i see no reason to change anything. only problems are due to the pet mechanic. (DoT ends when Pet dies before the duration would end)

Sorcerer - Matter: current Theme Single Target Kite
Damage: Really don't want to see yet another AoE (DoT) Spec in Albion, so lets keep it single target focused. A DoT that rupts with every Tick. higher level=longer duration. Maybe also increasing damage with every tick? DD/snare as AoE.
Support: Selfcast MHB Spell? Selfcast pulsing Bladturn? Mana Siphon? Reduced Mana Cost buff?
Utility: Turn single inst Debuff into a regular Dex debuff that stacks with the AoE Dex/qui debuff. or turn it into a single Dex/int debuff?

Wizard - Fire Magic: Current Theme DPS only
Damage: Up the values if DPS is the main and only thing this spec has to offer. Maybe bring the GT AoE into this spec from Earth?
Support: Selfcast Element resis? Selfcast Magic Pierce Buff?
Utility: Maybe bring the Debuffs into this spec from Earth?

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:01 PM
Midgard:
Shaman - Mending
Spiritmaster - Summoning

Shaman - Mending: Current Theme FnF Healer
Damage: nope
Support: Maybe add in a Health conversion element to the Friggs when targets get hit? Turn them into HoTs? Just add HoTs? Turn them to Reprocs (timer? conc?) when target is hit? PbAoE instant Variants?
Utility: i got nothing

Spiritmaster - Summoning -> look Enchanter - Enchantments.

Style changes will cover (or end) most of the Weaponline shortcomings. No point discussion it.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 1:01 AM by Hodge

We could give spirit master and enchanter the power drain and transfer spells like necro has.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 1:08 AM by Bradekes

Hodge wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 1:01 AM
We could give spirit master and enchanter the power drain and transfer spells like necro has.

I have thought about that too. But mentalist and SM makes more sense to me.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 3:38 AM by easytoremember

Hodge wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 1:01 AM
We could give spirit master and enchanter the power drain and transfer spells like necro has.

On the topic of power transfer directly from a caster it would be very different from the necro using his pet as a medium. The necro loses power cost regardless of the outcome of his pet's spell cast and both spells are subject to 2 LOS checks (user:target, pet:target) before casting. The removal of the pet medium makes the overall feeding process less sluggish and the speed of the spellcasts are faster due to the difference in DEX

The same should be considered if the necromancer is ever changed so that the caster takes over the pet's role

Wed 14 Oct 2020 7:42 AM by natefker

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Oct 2020 5:01 PM
I was wondering if we could get a complete list of the speclines that are going to be considered useless. What some may consider useless may not be the same as others. Will there be a separate vote to decide which speclines will be chosen for adjustment?

My thoughts on the list:

Hibernia:
Mentalist - Mentalism
Enchanter - Enchantments
Druid - Nature
Bard - Blades/Blunt
Warden - Blades/Blunt

Albion:
Armsman - Crossbow
Cleric - Smite(on the border)
Necromancer - Painworking(very niche)
Reaver - Slash/Thrust/Crush
Scout - Slash/Thrust
Sorcerer - Matter(not really that bad)
Wizard - Fire Magic

Midgard:
Shaman - Mending
Spiritmaster - Summoning
Warrior - Thrown Weapons
(Midgard has most well rounded classes main issue with sword/axe not competing w/hammer)

**Additional contender**
All Realms - Parry

IMO most of these are niche rather than useless.
I don't think we should be focusing on empowering underpowered (IE niche) speclines and rather making unusable speclines viable.
These in my mind are :
Albion -
Smite *borderline*
Crossbow
Midgard -
Summoning
Thrown Weapons
Hibernia -
Enchantments

The rest of the listed lines are useable to some degree though may not be optimal. Everything can't be 'best' by definition.

You discussed the bard blade line. I think it's fine as is due to the fact that a bard is not meant to be a main damage dealer. It's roll as defined by it's class is a support role. It can however use the blade line (in conjunction with it's other lines) to preform this alternate (DPS) task albeit at a significant disadvantage. If we were to somehow bring bard blade line up to have the same output as say a hero spear line then why would you run a hero vs a bard when the bard also can sub spec into heals and has cc / baseline buffs etc.

[EDIT: spear hero is a bad example cause spear styles are not great but I hope you understand my point. That being that a class defines the roll and trying to have specs let you choose a different roll (and be on par in that role) will end up negating the actual classes designed for that roll]

I think the focus should be on lines that no one puts points into ever because they are 'useless'.

The lines I listed above if you maxed out and attempted to play your class you'd be roughly equivalent in practical utility to an unspeced version of your class. Pet buffs in RvR are practically useless and in specific for the SM. The main beneficial buff you could get for your pet is mezz reduction. However you could alternately spec into supp and get demezz which is arguably better in 99% of circumstances. At least the cabby pet line gives a run speed buff for the pet to increase it's ability to catch sprinting targets.

Smite is borderline in this case (in my mind) because it does give you some benefits. I think if the spec nuke was 1500 range it would be more or less solved. It would allow you to spec smite and be effective if at a moderate disadvantage for trying to main spec an off-class roll. IE damage on a healer.

That is my 2c at least.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 12:51 PM by Bradekes

natefker wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 7:42 AM
IMO most of these are niche rather than useless.
I don't think we should be focusing on empowering underpowered (IE niche) speclines and rather making unusable speclines viable.
These in my mind are :
Albion -
Smite *borderline*
Crossbow
Midgard -
Summoning
Thrown Weapons
Hibernia -
Enchantments

The rest of the listed lines are useable to some degree though may not be optimal. Everything can't be 'best' by definition.

You discussed the bard blade line. I think it's fine as is due to the fact that a bard is not meant to be a main damage dealer. It's roll as defined by it's class is a support role. It can however use the blade line (in conjunction with it's other lines) to preform this alternate (DPS) task albeit at a significant disadvantage. If we were to somehow bring bard blade line up to have the same output as say a hero spear line then why would you run a hero vs a bard when the bard also can sub spec into heals and has cc / baseline buffs etc.

[EDIT: spear hero is a bad example cause spear styles are not great but I hope you understand my point. That being that a class defines the roll and trying to have specs let you choose a different roll (and be on par in that role) will end up negating the actual classes designed for that roll]

I think the focus should be on lines that no one puts points into ever because they are 'useless'.

The lines I listed above if you maxed out and attempted to play your class you'd be roughly equivalent in practical utility to an unspeced version of your class. Pet buffs in RvR are practically useless and in specific for the SM. The main beneficial buff you could get for your pet is mezz reduction. However you could alternately spec into supp and get demezz which is arguably better in 99% of circumstances. At least the cabby pet line gives a run speed buff for the pet to increase it's ability to catch sprinting targets.

Smite is borderline in this case (in my mind) because it does give you some benefits. I think if the spec nuke was 1500 range it would be more or less solved. It would allow you to spec smite and be effective if at a moderate disadvantage for trying to main spec an off-class roll. IE damage on a healer.

That is my 2c at least.

Thanks for the input! I thought they did boost the range of the cleric spells? Also I see your point as far as making the specific specs you mentioned buffed.

The reason why I mentioned all of the subpar to extremely poor specs I think they should look at, is after you enhance the ones you mentioned they may be stronger than the others you suggested to forgo. In the end that would just create the same issues for the neglected specs.

My thoughts are why not go ahead and take any specline that is not up to par and make it worth speccing in as a main spec. This way there wouldn't be any future requests and no one feels ignored, regardless of everyone's perceived role of a class. As for some reason people can accept that cleric needs to be able to deal damage effectively when specced for damage but not a bard/warden though they all fit support roles.

I wouldn't want a bard to deal the same damage as a hero. I want you to think about how much utility is lost when a bard switches to a melee weapon. They have no chants that give them combat prowess. They have only a small evade chance. Even if they dealt hero dmg they'd have no defense, lower abs, lower hp. Giving them some combat style procs for utility would be my suggestion. Nothing over-the-top but reasonable utility that could help them/their team in combat.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 1:51 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 12:51 PM
My thoughts are why not go ahead and take any specline that is not up to par and make it worth speccing in as a main spec. This way there wouldn't be any future requests and no one feels ignored, regardless of everyone's perceived role of a class. As for some reason people can accept that cleric needs to be able to deal damage effectively when specced for damage but not a bard/warden though they all fit support roles.

hello cleric player...

its pretty obvious that you want your support classe to buffed massivly even though it is basicly fine and want to deny that to classes that really need help? according to the survey you base your statements to, wardens need alot of help because they are stuck to be single healers and maybe side snarers from time to time. wow what a cool class! not.

and that while bards and clerics have alot of tools.....

queistion: why do clerics need to be dmg dealers?

Wed 14 Oct 2020 1:54 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 1:51 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 12:51 PM
My thoughts are why not go ahead and take any specline that is not up to par and make it worth speccing in as a main spec. This way there wouldn't be any future requests and no one feels ignored, regardless of everyone's perceived role of a class. As for some reason people can accept that cleric needs to be able to deal damage effectively when specced for damage but not a bard/warden though they all fit support roles.

hello cleric player...

its pretty obvious that you want your support classe to buffed massivly even though it is basicly fine and want to deny that to classes that really need help? according to the survey you base your statements to, wardens need alot of help because they are stuck to be single healers and maybe side snarers from time to time. wow what a cool class! not.

and that while bards and clerics have alot of tools.....

queistion: why do clerics need to be dmg dealers?

Umm are you suggesting that I'm a cleric player? I don't play cleric, but I do have a boring warden I play. I'm not an alb player at all. I have a feeling you aren't much of a reader and take things out of context. And the survey also pointed out that warden were the most underpowered class in game which I concer with and have made multiple threads stating so.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 3:05 PM by Sepplord

the survey prove that the common perception is that the warden is UP, not that it really is. (i would agree it is the most boring...maybe though, but that'S a different thing than UP)
Stop taking votes on balance changes as proof for anything

The survey also states that classes noone groups are the most OP
while standard classes of meta-setups have really low numbers

Smite specline is far from useless, and definitely not unplayable. It is a VERY good example why looking at meta-setups for balance changes makes much more sense than individual classes.
Are Albion castergroups too weak? Do they need more damage potential on one of the healers? Surely not.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 3:45 PM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 3:05 PM
the survey prove that the common perception is that the warden is UP, not that it really is. (i would agree it is the most boring...maybe though, but that'S a different thing than UP)
Stop taking votes on balance changes as proof for anything

The survey also states that classes noone groups are the most OP
while standard classes of meta-setups have really low numbers

Smite specline is far from useless, and definitely not unplayable. It is a VERY good example why looking at meta-setups for balance changes makes much more sense than individual classes.
Are Albion castergroups too weak? Do they need more damage potential on one of the healers? Surely not.

Warden are underpowered, I have one - I play it. Have you played one? Having only a strong single target heal is perhaps the biggest reason even in a group setting they are weak.

Try getting off single target heals in siege fights. I've never felt more helpless on a class in keep take or defend as I do on my Warden. You literally have LoS to nothing, you can't deal dmg and have no purpose besides BT/resists. You're OOP constantly. It's not a good experience. And don't get me started on their melee. Literally only thing you can do in keep fight is drop TWF every 10min.

I 100% disagree with you on your assessment of the survey. Maybe the playerbase doesn't have the best ideas on resolving issues but they are a good source when identifying issues.

To me you're just trying to invalidate the survey because you don't agree with the outcome/results.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 4:10 PM by skipari

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 3:45 PM
Warden are underpowered, I have one - I play it. Have you played one? Having only a strong single target heal is perhaps the biggest reason even in a group setting they are weak.

Try getting off single target heals in siege fights. I've never felt more helpless on a class in keep take or defend as I do on my Warden. You literally have LoS to nothing, you can't deal dmg and have no purpose besides BT/resists. You're OOP constantly. It's not a good experience. And don't get me started on their melee. Literally only thing you can do in keep fight is drop TWF every 10min.

I 100% disagree with you on your assessment of the survey. Maybe the playerbase doesn't have the best ideas on resolving issues but they are a good source when identifying issues.

To me you're just trying to invalidate the survey because you don't agree with the outcome/results.

That is a very odd argumentation which basically fits to any light melee or full tank. As hybrid you have even the hypothetic chance to heal and drop twf in case of the warden. Following this logic any melee which is basically not a thane is underpowered, more even then the warden.

So what you describe is more a design issue around zerg/keep fights and has nothing to do with a specific class.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 4:16 PM by Bradekes

skipari wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 4:10 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 3:45 PM
Warden are underpowered, I have one - I play it. Have you played one? Having only a strong single target heal is perhaps the biggest reason even in a group setting they are weak.

Try getting off single target heals in siege fights. I've never felt more helpless on a class in keep take or defend as I do on my Warden. You literally have LoS to nothing, you can't deal dmg and have no purpose besides BT/resists. You're OOP constantly. It's not a good experience. And don't get me started on their melee. Literally only thing you can do in keep fight is drop TWF every 10min.

I 100% disagree with you on your assessment of the survey. Maybe the playerbase doesn't have the best ideas on resolving issues but they are a good source when identifying issues.

To me you're just trying to invalidate the survey because you don't agree with the outcome/results.

That is a very odd argumentation which basically fits to any light melee or full tank. As hybrid you have even the hypothetic chance to heal and drop twf in case of the warden. Following this logic any melee which is basically not a thane is underpowered, more even then the warden.

So what you describe is more a design issue around zerg/keep fights and has nothing to do with a specific class.

My example was to show that even in support role Warden lacks, not to say their lacking in melee was the reason why they lack in keep siege.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 6:03 PM by imweasel

I don't see why wardens and bards cannot get a better damage table.

I don't see why wardens can't get shield spec either. Just leave them at 1.5 spec points and then the player decides how he wants to play. It's not "give them better damage table, shield spec AND more spec points so I can spec in everything".

Give players the ability to choose, not pigeon hole them into what the devs think that's how you should play your toon.

Wed 14 Oct 2020 8:20 PM by Astaa

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Oct 2020 3:05 PM
the survey prove that the common perception is that the warden is UP, not that it really is. (i would agree it is the most boring...maybe though, but that'S a different thing than UP)
Stop taking votes on balance changes as proof for anything

The survey also states that classes noone groups are the most OP
while standard classes of meta-setups have really low numbers

Smite specline is far from useless, and definitely not unplayable. It is a VERY good example why looking at meta-setups for balance changes makes much more sense than individual classes.
Are Albion castergroups too weak? Do they need more damage potential on one of the healers? Surely not.

Well, I think any changes would be a choice rather than something on top, so to spec shield they would possibly have to sacrifice something else, I guess they would give them some more spec points but even so, I don't think it will be current cookie cutter spec+slam (I am not even sure that would improve the class as far as fun to play is concerned anyway...)

Wed 14 Oct 2020 9:01 PM by thirian24

Wardens are so extremely terrible.. but yet every hib 8man runs one. Hmmmmm
Wardens are freakin awesome here. I'm not going to go into detail on their toolkit, but they are in a great place. Not to mention, that every single hib class has assess to side snare in blades except Druids. I don't think any other support has that option except Friar. Must be nice to peel for yourself.

I think people need to get off this weird thing about "My class is boring."

Most classes have a specific role/job in their group and that class fills those rolls very well.

On my Armsman, I'm usually not the one in there doing crazy dps and killing people just having a blast on my own. I'm filling a specific role for my group, we play as a group and when you have the mentality that when you're doing your job successfully.. then we are winning as a team. That's what's fun. Now I know everyone has a different definition of fun, but why should things be changed because you're bored?

Fulfill your role, win as a team knowing your job duties.