Adding RA changes from patch 1.68 (Last RA changes before New Realm Abilities)

I would like to suggest we add one last change to the RA's that were put forth by mythic before new ra's came about. The changes in 1.68 were:

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.68
REALM ABILITY CHANGES

- Bards are now able to purchase the realm ability, Mastery of Concentration.

- Clerics are now able to purchase the realm ability, Wild Power.

- Thanes are now able to purchase the realm abilities, Mastery of Magery and Wild Power.

I think the changes to cleric's and thanes just in general are nice changes for other play styles that they may want to go (more dmg on smites, and more dmg on thane spells). The more controversial change will be bards having moc, I believe having moc on bards will put them more in line with every other class that's a support/ccer/caster. My other argument is that with cure ns added to this patch level it took that advantage hib had in the fights vs alb/mid caster groups since previously they would always win the ns war because of group purge. With that advantage gone having another tool on a support could help hib a bit.

Tue 17 Apr 2018 9:43 AM by Shinyuka

no doubt this would be a huge interference in overall game balance... and although i really appreciate how you cut to the point, there are also some statements i dont fully agree with.

one of your arguments was to put bard more in line with other cc classes, and since adding moc would be a beneficial change, this automaticly implies bards are somewhat "behind". one class being stronger/weaker than its "counterpart" in another realm is something you cant ever fully validate.

the other point you stated was, that hibernia got hit hard by the implementation of cure ns, harder than other realms, since they would rely on winning ns fight thanks to grp purge - in compensation, they should get moc for bard. wow, this is quite a long shot. first of all, we dont know yet how the implementation of cure ns will influence the overall rvr balance. furthermore, trying to fix a supposed issue with a seemingly random beneficial change does seem like patchwork to me.. the kind of patchwork us gamers usually extremely rage upon, when executed by a game developer.

besides all that, i cant help but think (and dont get this wrong), there may be a somewhat own interest behind that suggestion. maybe i think so because you brought up two reasons that, considered one at a time, appear relatively unrelated. maybe you are afraid hib will be too weak, and maybe the reason you care is somehow connected to your guilds plans to play on hib. but maybe im completely wrong, and your intentions are good (in that case i hope you didnt take it too personally).

but no matter what, i dont think there is enough reason behind such a big costum change.. an interefence this big should not be done without hard evidence and game data, which we wont get before beta or possibly even release. because (as seen on uthgard) a beta is a good environment to find bugs, but not to predict realm balance.

Tue 17 Apr 2018 10:37 AM by Norad

I don't think you understand, it's not a custom change. It's a change that mythic made 4months after 1.65 since it seemed to be an imbalance like I said earlier where every caster in the game got moc besides bard(you only saw cc classes.. I said ALL support/caster classes). So if instead of the original OP I wrote, this is a QoL change that mythic did 4months after 1.65 and before new ras, does it seem inline with this server? Another way to think about it.

Let's just focus on this instead of the hib casters being weaker than, we can discuss it in discord if you wish :>

Tue 17 Apr 2018 11:50 AM by Shinyuka

i cant recall writing anything about hib casters, so im a bit confused here, but nvm, you are right, lets stay on topic.

okay, the term "custom" change ofc is as debatable as the claim hib needs any form of compensation.. let me explain why i call it "custom".
in my point of view, if a server declares 1.65 as a base for development, every feature from another patch level is considered a "custom" change.

adding something from catacombs to the server doesnt get less of a custom change, just because mythic added it later anyways.. catacombs may be too far ahead? well the patch you suggest is from ToA, where new items heavily influenced the realm balance anyways. if you now take a class change from an era without actually having those items, it almost appears abritrarily.

custom changes arent necessarily a bad thing, especially not on phoenix (and i dont view them as such either), a server openly embracing them - in the right place. this change, you may call it custom or not, however, has yet to proof its own necessity.

Tue 17 Apr 2018 12:54 PM by Norad

I think the reason why I think these RA changes are different is because they're still basically the last update mythic did on old ras before the new ras came out. I can't see how these changes had anything to do with ToA. They seem to be the last changes to old ras to make them more balanced and fair for every realm.

edit: so if i understand what youre saying it's just you dont want any other changes because you dont know the impact of them in rvr? to me it sounds like i50 beta will be the perfect place to test if these changes would be good for live or not.

Tue 17 Apr 2018 10:24 PM by Shinyuka

i hate these quote wars, but now i think it is just more handy to actually do quote some things i want to say something about..

if i put something out of context, please let me know, it doesnt happen on purpose or to change anything important.

Norad wrote: ↑
Tue 17 Apr 2018 12:54 PM
I can't see how these changes had anything to do with ToA.

this is a patch roughly 4 months after toa release.. an addon, which like no other changed itemization and introduced new skills at the same time, thus heavily altering rvr balance. i mean, i really dont see how this isnt super clear. bodyguard, banelord, speedtrap, 25% resi pierce.. all of a sudden, daoc was a completely different game.

Norad wrote: ↑
Tue 17 Apr 2018 12:54 PM
edit: so if i understand what youre saying it's just you dont want any other changes because you dont know the impact of them in rvr? to me it sounds like i50 beta will be the perfect place to test if these changes would be good for live or not.

i think you misunderstood me, i dont have anything against custom changes in general (please dont just fly over my posts, i even stated the opposite xD ).

i dont see i50 beta as a sole viable source for information on that matter... and even if you do and devs are going for it,, how are you gonna evaluate your results? there is no stabile environment in daoc, no laboratory state simulator in which you can test the same fight with and without moc and see how the results change. there are so many unpredictable factors to consider.. so the only other option would be empirically. thats why we need ALOT of data (lots of fights from lots of different grps in lots of different scenarios... i mean a quantity an i50 beta probably cant offer), to deterime wether hib grps are in a good spot or not. or in other words, just wait and see how it turns out after launch..

Wed 18 Apr 2018 6:44 AM by Mesmer

Shinyuka wrote: ↑
Tue 17 Apr 2018 9:43 AM
no doubt this would be a huge interference in overall game balance...

I do not agree that this is so clear cut:

Phoenix, to my knowledge, is using the original active RA system. Your contention is that ten seconds of uninterruptible casting, from a bard, every thirty minutes represents a "huge interference in overall game balance?" How so? Sorcerers have it, healers have it. Both Albion and Midgard have access to stun, mesmerize, nearsight, and amnesia.

Mythic isn't infallible. Looking at the RA listings for 1.65, the criteria for access to MoC seems to be whether a class can specialize in a weapons line or not. Viewing Mythic's decision through this lens colors it more as an oversight or the developers not knowing their game than as a masterstroke balance call.

It happened in 1.68. It wasn't too strong then. Bards were later given NF MoC, which, IMO, was the stronger of the two realm abilities for the class. After initial immunity went out, you had thirty seconds to cure mesmerize on your team and go nuts on the enemy. I can't remember many complaints about bards being overpowered then either.

I am all for it and I do not plan to play Hibernia at release.

Thu 10 May 2018 1:06 AM by Ardri

Yes to cleric/thanes because no one goes smite and hardly anyone will play thane. It's the smallest of buff to specs/classes that will hardly be seen so why not encourage it? No to bard moc as it's too controversial.