This change will come a week after the keep changes and tireless / lw becoming built in. One or two weeks after RR5s are in there will be a vote about them once they could be fixed and then seen in action.
Now that there are many more RR5 Characters and everyone has two newly freed up RA points it's time to spend them: We're introducing many of the RR5 RAs, however, you won't automatically get them at RR5, instead RR5 will be the requirement which will allow you to pick one from several for the cost of 1 RA point.
The available abilities are, with 2 exceptions, all either current or old rr5 ras and hence the abbreviated effect summary should suffice to find the full ability description somewhere. Please note that the grouping of those classes is pretty much done, we're however not really happy about the placement of 2, maybe 3 classes. There is also 1 class and ability combination that will lead to some screaming but we'll at least test it once and see if the sky is indeed falling, let's see how long it takes to be spotted.
All classes in each grouping (bold headline) will be able to choose from all the abilities in the pool.
Supporter Classes: Shaman, Warden, Friar, Cleric, Druid, Healer, Bard Stun procc when hit (Cleric RR5)
5sec convert all damage to heal, self silence (Druid RR5)
Selfrezz (Healer RR5)
Removed: 15% group HP, MP & endu hot (Shaman RR5)
Caster Classes: Eld, Menta, Runemaster, Wizard, Sorc, Theurg, Animist
10 sec 215% charge, will break on cast (Eld RR5)
90% advanced evade (RM RR5)
Wall of Flame (Wizard RR5)
Pet Caster Classes: SM, BD, Cab, Ench, Necro
Pet release = group heal (SM RR5)
pet 1 min CC immunity (Cab RR5)
2000 MHB on pet (Ench RR5)
Hybrids Classes: Champ, Thane, VW, Reaver, Paladin, Skald, Minstrel Pbae 80% lifedrain (Reaver RR5) (replaced the champ RR5) Group magical and melee mhb 50%, double value on self (VW RR5)
Groupheal depending on grp size (Paladin RR5)
Removed: 20 sec dmg increased by enemy ABS (Champ RR5)
Full Tanks Classes: Warrior, Hero, Armsman
50% block and parry increase then 15% decrease (Arms RR5)
100% evade and slowed (Hero RR5)
Testudo (Warrior RR5)
Light Tanks Classes: Berserker, Blademaster, Mercenary, Savage
25% melee absorb, 25% magic resists, 25% chance to lose CC (Zerk RR5)
disarm, 90% parry chance, 25% less spell dmg (BM RR5)
15% more melee dmg, debuff & mezz purge, 100% immune to debuffs, takes 15% more dmg (Merc RR5)
I would suggest to remove the NS RR5 RA, because it will be the deciding factor in almost every Stealtherfight in the Future, will make us sit for 5 minutes after every fight, almost kills Viper as an RA and will make Rangers way to op.
I would suggest to remove the NS RR5 RA, because it will be the deciding factor in almost every Stealtherfight in the Future, will make us sit for 5 minutes after every fight, almost kills Viper as an RA and will make Rangers way to op.
Im sorry, but this is absurd. If you want to implement RR5 abilities, do it class specific. Like this people people will just stack whatever is most OP
Wait... Remedy for ranger/scout and hunter ?
What the point on this ?? stealth fight will be in favor of melee hunter/ranger...
Viper useless ? poison useless ?
Please remove remedy or change archer to another pool pls
Wait... Remedy for ranger/scout and hunter ?
What the point on this ?? stealth fight will be in favor of melee hunter/ranger...
Viper useless ? poison useless ?
Please remove remedy or change archer to another pool pls
I agree if that the case I stop my NS and play again my melee ranger
I would suggest to remove the NS RR5 RA, because it will be the deciding factor in almost every Stealtherfight in the Future, will make us sit for 5 minutes after every fight, almost kills Viper as an RA and will make Rangers way to op.
light tanks like svg with merc rr5 25% dmg increase debuff & mezz purge and you cant debuff nuke em while it lasts
hybrids like champ reaver and especially vw with champ rr5 to increase their dmg even further
on the other side caster do get defensive ras with only one actually being realy strong (eld)
I want rr5s to be in the game, but they really should stay class specific. Don’t ruin the chances for rr5 implementation with this. Also where is the bard rr5? The ability should make it so you have no cast animation. Please add this one too.
Its absolutely insane - they should be in a separate 5L RA pool.
VIPER is pretty useless now - 5m time for imune poison when everyone have viper + dot proc...
Anyway will see but dont not seems fair.
I guess it could be good if you play a melee ranger. But who does that anymore? It would not help a bow spec ranger in the least. You still lose every melee fight. I can see it benefiting scouts and hunters as they are more prone to pose some kind of melee challenge. Scouts would be unbeatable adding this to their slam/snare shield spam.
Its absolutely insane - they should be in a separate 5L RA pool.
VIPER is pretty useless now - 5m time for imune poison when everyone have viper + dot proc...
Anyway will see but dont not seems fair.
I guess it could be good if you play a melee ranger. But who does that anymore? It would not help a bow spec ranger in the least. You still lose every melee fight. I can see it benefiting scouts and hunters as they are more prone to pose some kind of melee challenge. Scouts would be unbeatable adding this to their slam/snare shield spam.
It’s not like every class has choice of viper.
I think as an archer I’d be choosing the ability that allows ns shots for 20 seconds
alb caster groups resetting the fight with sos and ichor, soon with the eld rr5 on top while the un ccable minstrel gets hard uncc for free. seems legit.
also nice for all the randoms: animists with the rm evade *thumbs up*
cant wait to use all the amazing light tank rr5s though.
So what makes the devs decide on what's voted in and what they just decide to add? They must know this would be a massive no if it was up to a vote... so they don't even bother and just do it because?
1) The idea of a RR5 ability that was class specific was introduced because of the RA overhaul that increased the cost of RAs when New Frontiers was released. This allowed each player to decide if they want a really strong RA or a few moderate strenth RAs depending on how many points they spent. The RR5 abilify was given for free to make up for the massive amounts of points needed to regain the strength of the old RAs, like MoC, Raging Power, etc.
2) Each class had a RR5 ability individualized so they could work on balance. There are way too many combinations if multiple classes can choose from multiple abilities. This will be nearly impossible to balance and ruin gameplay.
3) It is obvious by allowing the choice of multiple abilities for certain class types that favoritism is happening. Work on the current imbalance issues instead of introducing new problems that will RUIN the server.
I would suggest to remove the NS RR5 RA, because it will be the deciding factor in almost every Stealtherfight in the Future, will make us sit for 5 minutes after every fight, almost kills Viper as an RA and will make Rangers way to op.
At least make a seperate Pool for Archers. :-)
Remedy is the most likely to be removed entirely
on live for sb/infi/ns there only remedy : Assassin ingests poison that costs 10% life but grants poison immunity (from weapons only)for 60 seconds. Can be activated while stealthed without breaking stealth. HP loss is returned when the duration is up. Available to Infiltrators, Nightshades, and Shadowblades at RR5. https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/realm-abilities
1) The idea of a RR5 ability that was class specific was introduced because of the RA overhaul that increased the cost of RAs when New Frontiers was released. This allowed each player to decide if they want a really strong RA or a few moderate strenth RAs depending on how many points they spent. The RR5 abilify was given for free to make up for the massive amounts of points needed to regain the strength of the old RAs, like MoC, Raging Power, etc.
2) Each class had a RR5 ability individualized so they could work on balance. There are way too many combinations if multiple classes can choose from multiple abilities. This will be nearly impossible to balance and ruin gameplay.
3) It is obvious by allowing the choice of multiple abilities for certain class types that favoritism is happening. Work on the current imbalance issues instead of introducing new problems that will RUIN the server.
2) Each class had a RR5 ability individualized so they could work on balance. There are way too many combinations if multiple classes can choose from multiple abilities. This will be nearly impossible to balance and ruin gameplay.
Pretty much this, choosable RR5s are going to break especially group RvR completely. Testudo on hero, charge/cabRR5 on all casters, savages with EXTRA 25% dmg+immu? And that's just a few examples, please reconsider!
Again a change where i am wondering which issues it is supposed to fix/improve?
Not sure which combo is the scariest one, imo there are quite a few that are troubling, but the biggest issue imo aren't individual classes but the overall implications.
The abilities are heavily different in strength and i really doubt that with these classtype-groups the balance changes can be done right without hundreds of hours of work.
2) Each class had a RR5 ability individualized so they could work on balance. There are way too many combinations if multiple classes can choose from multiple abilities. This will be nearly impossible to balance and ruin gameplay.
While that sounds nice in theory, it's imo a false premise. Especially if you look at the old RR5s half were impactful the other half completely useless, in case of the new ones many are impactful while still some are useless. There is no way you can tell anyone that yes, the warden rr5 has seen serious thought, same for friar, both were just lazy and mostly useless while somewhat thematically fitting things when compared to actually incredibly strong things like shaman or champ or vw. While individualized RR5 in theory has the potential to provide something to enhance the toolkit provided by the class it's worth nothing when it's not actually used like that.
Aside from maybe 3 outlier there is not really any issue in being able to choose from the suggested set, it makes no difference if a paladin, champ or VW has the over the top champ ability. The actual potential issue is ability stacking, e. g. multiple champ or shaman rr5 usages in a single group. But that's something that some minor number tuning could fix.
The intent is that every class group has some actual choice between at least 2 viable abilities while accepting that some ability will just be the better / only option in a certain playstyle.
In the suggested class / ability grouping that is already the case for the hybrid group (vw and champ are both incredibly strong), it's almost there for light tanks (merc outshines the others a bit but with minor tuning zerk would be a contender), it's the case for full tanks (warrior and arms are both super viable picks yet different), pet caster is a perfect example (you will pick the pet immunity in group fights, you will pick the pet mhb as solo sm, you should pick the pet sacrifice in zerg fights), the caster group also looks fine in that regard (eld for group, wizard is a viable option for zerg / keeps).
2) Each class had a RR5 ability individualized so they could work on balance. There are way too many combinations if multiple classes can choose from multiple abilities. This will be nearly impossible to balance and ruin gameplay.
Pretty much this, choosable RR5s are going to break especially group RvR completely. Testudo on hero, charge/cabRR5 on all casters, savages with EXTRA 25% dmg+immu? And that's just a few examples, please reconsider!
See it cancels itself out perfectly, you see the 25% damage svg coming towards you and you charge away, the svg will then switch to the hero who turns into a turtle. Perfect.
I'm a big fan of RR5 abilities.
The main reason is the purpose Mythic tried to achieve with most RR5 abilities. They tried to even out weaknesses, buff strengths and overall define class roles with it. They tried to do that with flashy and cool one-time abilities instead of boring stat changes in the background.
Let me give you an example: The Reaver, his designed class role was to get deep down and dirty into enemy lines to rupt and debuff them with his pulses. Ofc as you all know doing that is usually a death sentence as you get focused down. That is why they came up with the Reaver Bomb RR5 ability: A pbaoe lifedrain attack that hits all nearby enemies and heals up the caster. As you can tell this synergizes very well with the class design role as it helps evening out the weakness of getting focused down and dying in enemy lines.
This however is also the reason I dislike this change. RR5 abilities were class specific on purpose. Sure not all were perfect but Mythic tried to balance and design them around each class for a reason. You can't just throw them all in a big mixer and expect good results, that is just not how they were meant to work in the first place.
Yes please give us RR5 abilities. Yes please fix & balance some of the RR5 abilities. But don't do whatever this is, it's terrible imo.
Also for people who care about class and realm identity (not me) getting other realms and classes RR5 abilities sucks too.
Another big point I totally forgot to mention in my previous post; the roulette aspect of this change.
Identifying enemy classes, setups, specs and even spells that are about to cast is a big part in DAoC. It is what separates good from very good players. We know what we can expect to get thrown at us from any given enemy. You know a scout could slam you, you know a Minstrel can mezz you, etc. It is so deeply integrated in our daily gaming that we don't really think about it and that is good.
However this patch will change it. No more can you say "Oh a Blademaster, if he is RR5 he could throw his RR5 ability on us." No. Because you don't know what RR5 ability he chose. Even worse you can't know.
RR5 abilities are exceptionally powerful in this game and knowing what could come is even more important because of that. After this patch we will play a game of roulette of what exceptionally powerful RR5 ability we have to deal with, with no way of knowing or preparing beforehand. A game of chance that is untypical for DAoC and I assume will throw many people off. DAoC was never a game of gambling, it was a game of information.
Why are all the big changes to this server done in rapid fire succession? We haven't even tested free fa with cd, and now there's a slew of headaches coming down the pipe line that prove to further complicate things. Hope for the best, but i really don't think this is going to play out well.
If you're looking to add another dynamic to Phoenix, I think ML abilities would be more balanced than this idea tbh. A lot of these stacked up will be very overpowered to already overpowered set ups. You can modify "game-changing" ML Abilities as well if you want to keep it balanced (e.g. Speedwarp should only last 30seconds or w/e). Other than that, the abilities are kind of balanced at this point. Keep the immunity timer for Zephyr... would also help solo assassins have a chance to escape from stealth zergs with mezz poison, etc etc.
Sounds like something that might be amazing on paper, but will go horrible wrong when implemented. My 2 cents are don't try to fix something that's not broken
Oh God.. No.. I like the idea of rr5 abilities.. But for the love of God keep them class specific, this is such a bad idea, in so many ways... If you chose to make an Eld, you get the insane rr5 ability, if you didn't, too bad..
I think it is a good update ! Brings changes to the game that has been stall for almost 2 years now. Balance can always be made afterwards. You all look either like grandpas wanting no changes/or your opinion is meaningless because it is super hard to tell how rr5 will affect the game.
If you're looking to add another dynamic to Phoenix, I think ML abilities would be more balanced than this idea tbh. A lot of these stacked up will be very overpowered to already overpowered set ups. You can modify "game-changing" ML Abilities as well if you want to keep it balanced (e.g. Speedwarp should only last 30seconds or w/e). Other than that, the abilities are kind of balanced at this point. Keep the immunity timer for Zephyr... would also help solo assassins have a chance to escape from stealth zergs with mezz poison, etc etc.
I don’t remember assassins getting choice of souljourn
2) Each class had a RR5 ability individualized so they could work on balance. There are way too many combinations if multiple classes can choose from multiple abilities. This will be nearly impossible to balance and ruin gameplay.
Pretty much this, choosable RR5s are going to break especially group RvR completely. Testudo on hero, charge/cabRR5 on all casters, savages with EXTRA 25% dmg+immu? And that's just a few examples, please reconsider!
See it cancels itself out perfectly, you see the 25% damage svg coming towards you and you charge away, the svg will then switch to the hero who turns into a turtle. Perfect.
a savage beating on a hero, that, despite having turned into a turtle, has 100% evade, and a caster from the hero's group that has just gotten free? How would that cancel out anything? Generally a horrible idea that IMHO will be impossible to balance.
If you're looking to add another dynamic to Phoenix, I think ML abilities would be more balanced than this idea tbh. A lot of these stacked up will be very overpowered to already overpowered set ups. You can modify "game-changing" ML Abilities as well if you want to keep it balanced (e.g. Speedwarp should only last 30seconds or w/e). Other than that, the abilities are kind of balanced at this point. Keep the immunity timer for Zephyr... would also help solo assassins have a chance to escape from stealth zergs with mezz poison, etc etc.
I don’t remember assassins getting choice of souljourn
Where did I say assassins had access to sojourner? I said to keep the immunity timer on zephyr that is currently implemented on live. Solo assassins would also benefit from MLS to use mezz poison as an escape tool from people to choose to zerg solos down
gruenesschaf wrote: See it cancels itself out perfectly, you see the 25% damage svg coming towards you and you charge away, the svg will then switch to the hero who turns into a turtle. Perfect.
a savage beating on a hero, that, despite having turned into a turtle, has 100% evade, and a caster from the hero's group that has just gotten free? How would that cancel out anything? Generally a horrible idea that IMHO will be impossible to balance.
You obviously forgot that the adding scout now nearsighted the caster.
The idea of self rez is a good one, but should not be only for Mid Healers.
What I could see happening in a battlefield situation is a self rez would enable a group to stay in position after the battle by the Healer rezing themselves then their group. Their self rez would put a unfair advantage for the Mid groups, as they would not have to run or boat back. Also in a keep fight it would enable the Mid groups to keep more players in the keep fight as the healer, in a sense, would never die. It would be more balanced if Clerics and Druids also got the ability. In any case a long reuse timer (20 minutes???) would definitely have to be on the ability. If this happens i can definitely see the Mids no longer short on healers.
As for the Skald, Minstrel, Bard: I can see the situation that in a Mid/Alb fight, where the Minstrel can mez but at the same time the skald is immune. Not sure how that would work in a fight, I guess it would depend on the timer, but it sees like another imbalance especially if it is a constant ability with no timer.
I didn't notice any RA for the Bard.
Another change that I don't understand (equal to the free fa2). Especially remedy is just such a stupid ra in it's core. Totally eliminating a whole spec line (envenom) and creating an even more straight forward combat between stealthers (while the ra doesn't help you vs any other classes than sins). Not to mention that it is another buff to archers in stealth wars. I cannot predict how the other ra's will impact 8v8 and zerg vs zerg but it seems like it will just generate balance issues and more QQ. Me personally would love the focus on upcoming events (the last one was a blast, unfortunately I had not much time to enjoy it) rather than such changes nobody really asked for.
The idea of self rez is a good one, but should not be only for Mid Healers.
What I could see happening in a battlefield situation is a self rez would enable a group to stay in position after the battle by the Healer rezing themselves then their group. Their self rez would put a unfair advantage for the Mid groups, as they would not have to run or boat back. Also in a keep fight it would enable the Mid groups to keep more players in the keep fight as the healer, in a sense, would never die. It would be more balanced if Clerics and Druids also got the ability. In any case a long reuse timer (20 minutes???) would definitely have to be on the ability. If this happens i can definitely see the Mids no longer short on healers.
As for the Skald, Minstrel, Bard: I can see the situation that in a Mid/Alb fight, where the Minstrel can mez but at the same time the skald is immune. Not sure how that would work in a fight, I guess it would depend on the timer, but it sees like another imbalance especially if it is a constant ability with no timer.
I didn't notice any RA for the Bard.
You should read the opening post again. But this time with a little more care. The mid healer is not the only one getting the self rezz.
I'm not sure whether I've explained here, but I've said before that the balance of the realm abilities we have right now are already customized, but therefore create a whole issue of balancing. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but if this RA set up is most similar to when the game had artifacts, master levels, and class specific RR5 abilities, then I would assume they're all together to help balance the game. I'm not sure if changing more of this up would be a good idea imo.
Sort of reminds me of that buff potion change that no one really asked for and then it made plenty quit.
Throwing it in the game see what happens then vote later is not the same as voting if people even remotely want this.
Had we asked "do you want pve instances?" before introducing DS / HoH you can be quite sure the answer would have been no. Had we asked before introducing NF RAs the answer would have likely been no. Had we asked before introducing NS cure the answer would most likely have been no.
There is pretty much no point to ask "should we add x" as anything new is seen as negative at fist and hence we don't ask that, instead a change proposal is made and constructive critic, like here the disproportionate impact of remedy or the most flamed about abilities (bard with cc immunity, shaman hot, merc 25% damage), is taken into account. Then when people could actually see how it impacts them after it's live everyone will have the option to make an informed vote on the actual thing and not whatever they might imagine it to be like.
I disapprove this. We don't need more custom stuff. Please address more important things on this server like adding more monthly PvP events to bring back more people and to make it fun again playing here. Thanks.
Discord was faster in spotting the one combination mentioned in the initial post.
What ? I don’t know what you mean by that comment. I just stating something that should raise cause for concern, maybe it didn’t for you when you typed it.
Also, what about putting Scout, Hunter and Ranger in another bracket and giving them options Desperate Bowman or Entwining Stakes
gruenesschaf wrote: Had we asked "do you want pve instances?" before introducing DS / HoH you can be quite sure the answer would have been no. Had we asked before introducing NF RAs the answer would have likely been no. Had we asked before introducing NS cure the answer would most likely have been no.
Well people don't say "no" they say "yes, but not like this".
It's like when I ask for ice cream, I would like a bowl of ice cream and not brought to an ice cream factory.
RR5 abilities are nice and at least the biggest offenders have been adressed in the most recent list, but that won't change that people prefer class & realm locked abilities designed and balanced about their specific class. It makes balancing way easier and strengthens class identity and diversity with other classes. Also you don't have to play lottery with what RR5 ability the opponent might have.
Each class gets its own RR5 ability, doesn't have to be the same as the original ones, but the system itself is way better.
please add an option with voting to make classes have their original rr5. There should be no reason to pick and chose which ones are in the game. I see that champ rr5 was removed now. Just let the classes have what they are supposed to...and bring in the bards rr5 please!!
Throwing it in the game see what happens then vote later is not the same as voting if people even remotely want this.
Had we asked "do you want pve instances?" before introducing DS / HoH you can be quite sure the answer would have been no. Had we asked before introducing NF RAs the answer would have likely been no. Had we asked before introducing NS cure the answer would most likely have been no.
There is pretty much no point to ask "should we add x" as anything new is seen as negative at fist and hence we don't ask that, instead a change proposal is made and constructive critic, like here the disproportionate impact of remedy or the most flamed about abilities (bard with cc immunity, shaman hot, merc 25% damage), is taken into account. Then when people could actually see how it impacts them after it's live everyone will have the option to make an informed vote on the actual thing and not whatever they might imagine it to be like.
Believe me I'm well aware how to manipulate people. Its obvious that asking "do you hate this enough to want us to remove it" after its been implemented is going to give drastically different results than "hey we're toying around with this idea, is this something the playerbase is interested in?"
Like you said it's a way to constantly tinker and play junior developer with the smallest risk that people will shut down your ideas and pet projects, the whole time telling yourself you know better than the population. I.e. "You think you do, but you don't!"
Throwing it in the game see what happens then vote later is not the same as voting if people even remotely want this.
Had we asked "do you want pve instances?" before introducing DS / HoH you can be quite sure the answer would have been no. Had we asked before introducing NF RAs the answer would have likely been no. Had we asked before introducing NS cure the answer would most likely have been no.
There is pretty much no point to ask "should we add x" as anything new is seen as negative at fist and hence we don't ask that, instead a change proposal is made and constructive critic, like here the disproportionate impact of remedy or the most flamed about abilities (bard with cc immunity, shaman hot, merc 25% damage), is taken into account. Then when people could actually see how it impacts them after it's live everyone will have the option to make an informed vote on the actual thing and not whatever they might imagine it to be like.
Believe me I'm well aware how to manipulate people. Its obvious that asking "do you hate this enough to want us to remove it" after its been implemented is going to give drastically different results than "hey we're toying around with this idea, is this something the playerbase is interested in?"
Like you said it's a way to constantly tinker and play junior developer with the smallest risk that people will shut down your ideas and pet projects, the whole time telling yourself you know better than the population. I.e. "You think you do, but you don't!"
This is the attitude that took Uthgard down. Not surprised to see it here since the developer was once part of the Uthgard team if I remember correctly.
You may be able to code, but you certainly don't know how to deal with a playerbase respectfully.
I've asked twice now why you want to implement this. No response. You just troll around instead. This is what I'm talking about.
Your players aren't blind nor are they stupid and most definitely they don't forget the way they are being treated. It seems you need to be reminded of that.
So , you want to give rr5 abilities , i personnally think its a bad idea, the rvr s good enough in its situation for rr5s abilities not to be implemented, remedy on hunts.. LOL , that Eld 5LLOL the champ 5L LOL , i dont get it , why buff the casters even more while still not giving CHARGE on tanks.... dont do this mistake of wanting to rush everything, like some friends said its a freeshard, and i know many people that will stop playing if these are implemented (prolly me too)
Have a look at classes that are not how they meant to be such as LF spec for serks/sbs or the dread commander and couple others . We are alot to think its a bad idea, i hope you listen to your comunity.
Best regards.
So , you want to give rr5 abilities , i personnally think its a bad idea, the rvr s good enough in its situation for rr5s abilities not to be implemented, remedy on hunts.. LOL , that Eld 5LLOL the champ 5L LOL , i dont get it , why buff the casters even more while still not giving CHARGE on tanks.... dont do this mistake of wanting to rush everything, like some friends said its a freeshard, and i know many people that will stop playing if these are implemented (prolly me too)
Have a look at classes that are not how they meant to be such as LF spec for serks/sbs or the dread commander and couple others . We are alot to think its a bad idea, i hope you listen to your comunity.
Best regards.
Read the first post again. Remedy and Champ RR5 got removed, Eld RR5 got nerfed and is still under investigation. Thx to the players feedback.
Why are all the big changes to this server done in rapid fire succession? We haven't even tested free fa with cd, and now there's a slew of headaches coming down the pipe line that prove to further complicate things. Hope for the best, but i really don't think this is going to play out well.
If you want to add more abilities into the game for characters then just add the champion levels, the lv 30 abilities will allow players to tweak their classes without anything game-breaking affecting overall game balance.
If you want to add more abilities into the game for characters then just add the champion levels, the lv 30 abilities will allow players to tweak their classes without anything game-breaking affecting overall game balance.
More iWin buttons is bad, mmkay?
Agreed. Champion abilities added some utility without breaking the game
Yeah let's add champ levels too. Dude, let's add master levels also!!! OMG OMG OMG. WTF why not just add artifacts on top of that?! It will make this server AMAAAAZZZINNNGGGG. OMFG ALL THESE CUSTOM CHANGES ARE OP. HELL YEAH LET'S DO IT AND THEN WE CAN END UP KILLING THIS SERVER YEAH!
Yeah let's add champ levels too. Dude, let's add master levels also!!! OMG OMG OMG. WTF why not just add artifacts on top of that?! It will make this server AMAAAAZZZINNNGGGG. OMFG ALL THESE CUSTOM CHANGES ARE OP. HELL YEAH LET'S DO IT AND THEN WE CAN END UP KILLING THIS SERVER YEAH!
Pull your head out of your ass. At no point did I say to add them in addition to the rr5 stuff, I said INSTEAD of them if the devs are so hell-bent on adding character abilities. If you ever actually played with champ levels you wouldn't be getting this hysterical, since they're all but a minor QoL to character customization yet would fulfill the intent of adding ability options for players.
P.S. capslock may have been cool in 1997, but now it just makes you look like an hyper-emotional idiot.
I like the idea of RR5 abilities if they are thoroughly examined and watched. However, before we implement those, can we implement the style changes? My Reaver and VWer would greatly appreciate it.
Aside from maybe 3 outlier there is not really any issue in being able to choose from the suggested set
Yes, absolutely no issue with the already-broken Alb cheese 5 caster set-up with three of them having personal SoS on top of two to three Ichors, regular SoS, and an un-CC-able Minstrel.
Yeah let's add champ levels too. Dude, let's add master levels also!!! OMG OMG OMG. WTF why not just add artifacts on top of that?! It will make this server AMAAAAZZZINNNGGGG. OMFG ALL THESE CUSTOM CHANGES ARE OP. HELL YEAH LET'S DO IT AND THEN WE CAN END UP KILLING THIS SERVER YEAH!
Pull your head out of your ass. At no point did I say to add them in addition to the rr5 stuff, I said INSTEAD of them if the devs are so hell-bent on adding character abilities. If you ever actually played with champ levels you wouldn't be getting this hysterical, since they're all but a minor QoL to character customization yet would fulfill the intent of adding ability options for players.
P.S. capslock may have been cool in 1997, but now it just makes you look like an hyper-emotional idiot.
Calm your titties, it was a post directed to the staff. They are already adding so much unnecessary things to this server so why not just add everything at this point? You know it will eventually happen. It's just a matter of time.
Calm your titties, it was a post directed to the staff. They are already adding so much unnecessary things to this server so why not just add everything at this point? You know it will eventually happen. It's just a matter of time.
well it read as a direct reply to my ask for a compromise. My bad
I don't want crap added any more than you do, but if they intend to add stuff anyways I'd rather they put in minor passive stuff and don't add more BS cooldown game-changers.
Pull your head out of your ass. At no point did I say to add them in addition to the rr5 stuff, I said INSTEAD of them if the devs are so hell-bent on adding character abilities. If you ever actually played with champ levels you wouldn't be getting this hysterical, since they're all but a minor QoL to character customization yet would fulfill the intent of adding ability options for players.
P.S. capslock may have been cool in 1997, but now it just makes you look like an hyper-emotional idiot.
Most here are this averse to any kind of change at first. The most recent example is probably the bleed change, some were predicting the spontaneous server combustion now that the age of the blademaster is upon us due to their powerful potential of using the side follow up being unleashed. In the end it was just as expected pretty much zero impact while no longer punishing you for using styles.
Now a new change is proposed, RR5 RAs, and the doomsayer are back at it. In the end it will just be a change that adds some new variety with some minor effect on the meta, if even that.
If we had proposed purchasable feather items with artefact /uses you would have seen the exact same despite also here nothing really changing as the really oppressive stuff would have been omitted, same for CLs where at most the disease would be questionable but you'd also get the same response to MLs where the argument that nothing really changes wouldn't hold in the face of zephyr, speedwarp, bodyguard and banelord and leaving those out wouldn't really be an option as those are the reason to implement them in the first place. It also would be the same response for alternative baseline nukes but it would also be true that this actually would change something in that it would open up some new setups (which would be the entire point).
I would suggest to remove the NS RR5 RA, because it will be the deciding factor in almost every Stealtherfight in the Future, will make us sit for 5 minutes after every fight, almost kills Viper as an RA and will make Rangers way to op.
At least make a seperate Pool for Archers. :-)
Remedy is the most likely to be removed entirely
on live for sb/infi/ns there only remedy : Assassin ingests poison that costs 10% life but grants poison immunity (from weapons only)for 60 seconds. Can be activated while stealthed without breaking stealth. HP loss is returned when the duration is up. Available to Infiltrators, Nightshades, and Shadowblades at RR5. https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/realm-abilities
so if its been removed entirely i dont understand
All Archer classes were given remedy for free on live, that's why they are making it available to all Archer classes here.
Pull your head out of your ass. At no point did I say to add them in addition to the rr5 stuff, I said INSTEAD of them if the devs are so hell-bent on adding character abilities. If you ever actually played with champ levels you wouldn't be getting this hysterical, since they're all but a minor QoL to character customization yet would fulfill the intent of adding ability options for players.
P.S. capslock may have been cool in 1997, but now it just makes you look like an hyper-emotional idiot.
Most here are this averse to any kind of change at first. The most recent example is probably the bleed change,
because it used to be 200 dmg stack.
Any chance for a response on a vote for class specific only? Or does it have to be this way or nothing?
Pull your head out of your ass. At no point did I say to add them in addition to the rr5 stuff, I said INSTEAD of them if the devs are so hell-bent on adding character abilities. If you ever actually played with champ levels you wouldn't be getting this hysterical, since they're all but a minor QoL to character customization yet would fulfill the intent of adding ability options for players.
P.S. capslock may have been cool in 1997, but now it just makes you look like an hyper-emotional idiot.
Most here are this averse to any kind of change at first. The most recent example is probably the bleed change, some were predicting the spontaneous server combustion now that the age of the blademaster is upon us due to their powerful potential of using the side follow up being unleashed. In the end it was just as expected pretty much zero impact while no longer punishing you for using styles.
Now a new change is proposed, RR5 RAs, and the doomsayer are back at it. In the end it will just be a change that adds some new variety with some minor effect on the meta, if even that.
If we had proposed purchasable feather items with artefact /uses you would have seen the exact same despite also here nothing really changing as the really oppressive stuff would have been omitted, same for CLs where at most the disease would be questionable but you'd also get the same response to MLs where the argument that nothing really changes wouldn't hold in the face of zephyr, speedwarp, bodyguard and banelord and leaving those out wouldn't really be an option as those are the reason to implement them in the first place. It also would be the same response for alternative baseline nukes but it would also be true that this actually would change something in that it would open up some new setups (which would be the entire point).
Is this the same intuition telling you this that told you having badge of valor and remedy be on the first draft of the list was a good Idea?
Here's how its gonna work in reality.. You're going to continue to whittle down the list until its fairly inconsequential abilities to the point that you shouldn't have bothered in the first place. Then say, see guys? you were overreacting!
The reality is you already have done all the development and put all the time in advance, and rather than swallow that people largely dont want this, you'll just nerf them until nobody cares anymore. All because you implemented it prior to actually allowing a vote because of the constant desire to tinker.
If you're looking to add another dynamic to Phoenix, I think ML abilities would be more balanced than this idea tbh. A lot of these stacked up will be very overpowered to already overpowered set ups. You can modify "game-changing" ML Abilities as well if you want to keep it balanced (e.g. Speedwarp should only last 30seconds or w/e). Other than that, the abilities are kind of balanced at this point. Keep the immunity timer for Zephyr... would also help solo assassins have a chance to escape from stealth zergs with mezz poison, etc etc.
I don’t remember assassins getting choice of souljourn
His grammer didn't help but he was saying assassins can escape stealth zerg with mezz poison, not that they will have zypher
Most here are this averse to any kind of change at first. The most recent example is probably the bleed change, some were predicting the spontaneous server combustion now that the age of the blademaster is upon us due to their powerful potential of using the side follow up being unleashed. In the end it was just as expected pretty much zero impact while no longer punishing you for using styles.
Now a new change is proposed, RR5 RAs, and the doomsayer are back at it. In the end it will just be a change that adds some new variety with some minor effect on the meta, if even that.
If we had proposed purchasable feather items with artefact /uses you would have seen the exact same despite also here nothing really changing as the really oppressive stuff would have been omitted, same for CLs where at most the disease would be questionable but you'd also get the same response to MLs where the argument that nothing really changes wouldn't hold in the face of zephyr, speedwarp, bodyguard and banelord and leaving those out wouldn't really be an option as those are the reason to implement them in the first place. It also would be the same response for alternative baseline nukes but it would also be true that this actually would change something in that it would open up some new setups (which would be the entire point).
Gruenesschaf,
While I agree that there is an all-too-often over-reaction to changes here, these R5 abilities aren't some Great Unknown like bleeds or RvR horses.
These are known abilities, and many are spotting considerable upset in gameplay with them no longer tied to specific classes and allowing other classes to capitalize on abilities they were never intended to have in the first place.
No offense, but given the server team's list of planned things to do as well as a wealth of other ideas presented in the feedback forum this RR5 change just seems... reckless, IMHO
Pull your head out of your ass. At no point did I say to add them in addition to the rr5 stuff, I said INSTEAD of them if the devs are so hell-bent on adding character abilities. If you ever actually played with champ levels you wouldn't be getting this hysterical, since they're all but a minor QoL to character customization yet would fulfill the intent of adding ability options for players.
P.S. capslock may have been cool in 1997, but now it just makes you look like an hyper-emotional idiot.
Most here are this averse to any kind of change at first. The most recent example is probably the bleed change,
because it used to be 200 dmg stack.
Any chance for a response on a vote for class specific only? Or does it have to be this way or nothing?
He already addressed why it cant/wont be class specific.
Pull your head out of your ass. At no point did I say to add them in addition to the rr5 stuff, I said INSTEAD of them if the devs are so hell-bent on adding character abilities. If you ever actually played with champ levels you wouldn't be getting this hysterical, since they're all but a minor QoL to character customization yet would fulfill the intent of adding ability options for players.
P.S. capslock may have been cool in 1997, but now it just makes you look like an hyper-emotional idiot.
Most here are this averse to any kind of change at first. The most recent example is probably the bleed change, some were predicting the spontaneous server combustion now that the age of the blademaster is upon us due to their powerful potential of using the side follow up being unleashed. In the end it was just as expected pretty much zero impact while no longer punishing you for using styles.
zero impact? the bleed change did practically nothing but make the best tank on the server even better, great change way to go
Now a new change is proposed, RR5 RAs, and the doomsayer are back at it. In the end it will just be a change that adds some new variety with some minor effect on the meta, if even that.
worrying that the guy in charge thinks that giving sorcs and theurgs eld rr5's, giving savage merc rr5, is "minor, if even that"
if you want to change the meta or add variety there is plenty of things to do like reverting hp changes, fixing bolts, nerfing style angles, end 4 pots, buffing certain styles (hello merc styles), shears
First I would like to say that I really like your step of implementing the RR5 RAs.
I like the RR5 RAs for a few different reasons. Two of them are:
They help a tiny bit with closing the gap between lowRR and highRR by giving BOTH sides (since RR5 is not too hard to achieve here I put it on the lowRR side) an additional tool to use in fights.
They add some uniqueness to the different classes/realms. I think the speciality of having three realms each with their unique races, classes and skills is a big appeal of DAoC.
I remember from many discussions about oldRAs vs newRAs people argumenting for oldRAs with the point that it would give more uniqueness to the realms and classes. But in my opinion its quite the opposite: there are more usefull, unique RR5-abilities on newRAs than usefull, unique RAs in oldRAs (that mostly just stand out because they are quite overpowered...).
By your way of implementing RR5 RAs the second point (and also a little bit the 1st) gets lost.
I like the idea of not getting them automatically and having to skill them. But why only for 1pt and not for the 2pt everyone will get from LW+Tireless? For only 1pt (well also for only 2pt tbh i guess ) it seems like theres no reason not to get them.
But I dont like the idea of chosing them from a set of the very strong ones. Not only because of the argument of uniqueness of realms/classes, but also from a balancing viewpoint.
I think we all know that DAoC with three realms and all the classes and abilities and on top of that all the different RvR playstyles is not an easy game to balance. Without going into details I think some of the possible class/RR5-combinations you posted dont seem very balanced.
Also I think some of the RR5s are (apart from being very strong, maybe too strong) not good gamedesign. And while encountering this only sometimes or only once per group with the normal-live RR5 implementation can be annoying, encountering it on possible any of a certain class-type and multiple times fighting against one group could be outright frustrating.
That brings me to my first point of RR5s for closing RR-gaps. I think there will RR5 choices that will make certain groups/setups much more stronger than other choices or RR5-RAs from a normal-live RR5-RAs implementation. HighRR set-groups will of course optimize on that too, giving one more point to crack in fighting them and will widen the gap between lowRR (non-set) grps versus highRR (set) grps.
A good implementation imho would be starting from the normal-live RR5 RAs implementation with unique RR5 RAs per class. Keeping the requirement of RR5 and adding the requirement to skill it for some RA-pts. Then you could go on fine-tune them, starting with adjusting values and maybe go on with changing the really bad ones people wouldnt take for even only 2pts. That would be a more careful way of dealing with balancing.
Its subjective but many of your last balancing changes didnt convince me. I know you wrote you will implement this as a test first, but I fear a short test by players of whom many only view their classes and playstyle could not do justice for a change like this.
But I think you have your reasons for going with this way of implementing the RR5 RAs and not the normal live way.
Would be nice if you could share some of your reasoning! :-)
You may want to consider giving light tanks the charge RA to balance some of these caster/support abilities. I don't play a light tank (I play a caster here actually), but I did a long time ago in earlier DAoC and I think it will be necessary from a balance stand point now, where before it wasn't.
I've always been a fan of RR5 abilities, I think it will take a little bit for people to adjust, though I wish this would have been added sooner, it's better late than never.
I know solo players aren't too important around here but I want to share my perspective of these abilities as a solo player.
In almost any fight that a solo initiates they want to eliminate the target(s) as quickly as possible. Almost all of these abilities give players more staying power, which puts the solo player at risk for adds because they have to get through another ability just to kill a target or the target just manages to get away entirely.
Support classes will self rez or self heal. Caster classes will charge away. Pet classes might get the heal, but I doubt it. Hybrids will lifedrain or give themselves an ablative. Tanks will avoid all the damage. Light tanks can live longer or kill faster. And melee stealthers will just get the lifetap.
So essentially, pet classes will be the only group that can be efficiently targeted by solo players. As a solo player, I like to target the reinforcements heading to defend or attack an objective; now most of them will just use their RR5 ability to get away or survive for backup and I've effectively done nothing to help my realm. I'm guessing a lot of people do want to live longer out there in the RVR world so they can do more, but it shouldn't come at the cost of the solo player base.
Just my "two cents", I'll try it out if I have no other choice but I'm not hopeful for the outcome. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly accept that.
Some of the RR5s are completely out of balance with others.
I suggest either tweaking the op RR5s or make them cost 5 pts and scaling like other active RAs, so lvl1-lvl5 SB rr5 for example, else this RA will make assassins ridiculous.
Having played in midgaard for a month or two now, observing how things unfold these added rr5 abilities seem to cater towards a 8v8 scene (who dont want them?) yet most of the folks on here seem to do zergstuff, a bit of smallscale, a little portion of 8v8 and the rest are soloers/stealthers.
This change just overall seem to go against what the server population is about, but maybe im too sceptical.
As for the idea itself, it cotinues to head towards mirroring and go against the spirit of Daoc, where class identity and differences are one of the major driving factors. Yes some stuff might have been overtuned on either realm, but giving some of the overtuned stuff to all realms just create a whole other set of issues with balancing.
Looking at what each class "needs" and then take that into a bigger picture, and match the outcome with how the server population plays would probably make a better outcome. But your house, your rules.
- Cleric R5 : will it be resetting stun immunity like on live?
- Pally R5 : is it the big HoT as on live, or it's a single use group heal?
- VW R5 : is it the 1k group value/2k user MHB value? It was buffed than nerfed back recently on Live, just wanted to double check.
- Arms R5 : will it allow you to go past the 50% (or 60%?) block cap in RvR? Meaning you could combo it with DD and block for group at approx 80-90% chance? This is how it works on Live.
Other comments :
- The BM R5 is strange to put here, because you don't have the high value HoTs item /uses like on Live. So you'll just use it to survive a tank train on you basically, or wait for you Legion heart/pot RUT comes back up.
Adding more abilities and options to keep the game fresh.
I like it, bring on these changes. Kudos for thinking outside the box to add flavor to an old game.
Any chance for a response on a vote for class specific only? Or does it have to be this way or nothing?
This way or nothing.
There is no way to make a sensible unique ability for each class in a reasonable amount of time that isn't either entirely over the top or totally useless or just the same thing of another.
- Cleric R5 : will it be resetting stun immunity like on live?
- Pally R5 : is it the big HoT as on live, or it's a single use group heal?
- VW R5 : is it the 1k group value/2k user MHB value? It was buffed than nerfed back recently on Live, just wanted to double check.
- Arms R5 : will it allow you to go past the 50% (or 60%?) block cap in RvR? Meaning you could combo it with DD and block for group at approx 80-90% chance? This is how it works on Live.
Cleric will reset stun immunity, pala will be the hot, arms will go past the cap. Absolute values of everything, including vw mhb or pala heal, are likely to see adjustments.
Can't, people cry about changes, see the style thread. Doesn't matter that about half the styles in the game are entirely pointless with some entire weapon lines not having the basics making them dead lines (e. g. axe, sword).
Can't, people cry about changes, see the style thread. Doesn't matter that about half the styles in the game are entirely pointless with some entire weapon lines not having the basics making them dead lines (e. g. axe, sword).
Does that mean you're not making the style changes at all? Because that's what it reads like. If it's not what you're saying, you may want to edit it.
If it is what you're saying ... I don't get it. You make code that means any long chain style is rarely likely to land, then announce changes you are now not going through with, even though they are fundamentally needed after your hit/miss customizations. And why? Because of feedback from a bunch of whiners who do that is every single thread that changes anything even slightly from their 20 year old Holy Grail? Make the changes that are needed and ignore the morons. You gutted certain style chains, fix them! Please!
For the love of God, Midgard would like a basic weapon line that isn't hammer to be viable!
Does that mean you're not making the style changes at all? Because that's what it reads like. If it's not what you're saying, you may want to edit it.
If it is what you're saying ... I don't get it. You make code that means any long chain style is rarely likely to land, then announce changes you are now not going through with, even though they are fundamentally needed after your hit/miss customizations. And why? Because of feedback from a bunch of whiners who do that is every single thread that changes anything even slightly from their 20 year old Holy Grail? Make the changes that are needed and ignore the morons. You gutted certain style chains, fix them! Please!
For the love of God, Midgard would like a basic weapon line that isn't hammer to be viable!
Chain change will still come, the entire reason for the delay is that I would like to fix more than just that to then consider styles "done", the problem is just the how / how exactly.
As always these abilities seem geared more towards albion and hibernia, with midgard as the "afterthought" realm.
These abilities will further skew the server imbalance into something far worse. Might as well just delete Midgard and
make it a two realm server.
Having played in midgaard for a month or two now, observing how things unfold these added rr5 abilities seem to cater towards a 8v8 scene (who dont want them?) yet most of the folks on here seem to do zergstuff, a bit of smallscale, a little portion of 8v8 and the rest are soloers/stealthers.
This change just overall seem to go against what the server population is about, but maybe im too sceptical.
As for the idea itself, it cotinues to head towards mirroring and go against the spirit of Daoc, where class identity and differences are one of the major driving factors. Yes some stuff might have been overtuned on either realm, but giving some of the overtuned stuff to all realms just create a whole other set of issues with balancing.
Looking at what each class "needs" and then take that into a bigger picture, and match the outcome with how the server population plays would probably make a better outcome. But your house, your rules.
I like the idea of rr5 abilities. However, the unique, class specific rr5 abilities may be the better road to go down albeit a few of them toned down from their live versions, like you have done with certain other RAs.
Eld rr5 seemed to me to be one of the strongest RAs from the beginning. Not sure why that wasnt nerved. Its basically a second live for a caster that totally f***ed up. immagine a sorc getting overextended, ccing everyone in the backfield and then charging back into position. Totally op imo.
Retribution of the Faithful – A self-proc that gives a 50% chance to proc a 3s stun (unaffected by det/no Immunity) on melee attackers. 30s duration, 5m re-use. (Cleric RR5)
Phoenix Change: None
Thoughts: Reactionary Escape Tool.
Strong vs Melee, bad vs Ranged and Spells. Lackluster open field, better for Tower/Keep fight. rather short re-use timer.
Maybe include Ranged attacks as well? increase re-use timer?
Nature’s Womb – Converts all damage taken to health. 5s duration, 10m re-use., self silence (Druid RR5)
Phoenix Change: Self stun turned into self silence
Thoughts: Reactionary Escape Tool.
Strong vs all Damage Types. Strong in all aspects.
Self Silence Purge-able?
Sputin’s Legacy – Healer can insta-cast a resurrect buff on themselves. Buff lasts 30 seconds. If the healer dies while buff is up, they have the option to /resurrect themselves anytime within 10 minutes after death with 10% H/E/P. The healer must wait 10 seconds before /resurrecting themselves 30s duration, 15m re-use. (Healer RR5)
Phoenix Change: none
Thoughts: Proactive Recovery Tool.
Maybe increase the re-use timer? 30min? This is powerful for a lot of reasons.
Restorative Mind – Group buff that heals health, power, and endurance over 30 seconds (15% is granted every 3 seconds regardless of combat state). 10m re-use. (Shaman RR5)
Phoenix Change: from 5% to 15%
Thoughts: Proactive Recovery Tool.
Currently, removed by Phoenix Stuff. Values can be adjusted to make it viable again?
Arms Length – 215% speed charge. 10s duration, will break on cast, 15m re-use, (Eld RR5)
Phoenix Change: unbreakable to "break on cast"
Thoughts: Reactionary Escape Tool.
Strong vs all Damage Types. Strong in all aspects.
Making it breakable is a good choice, as it would be too powerful. Even though it still is.
Rune of Utter Anger – 90% chance to evade all melee attacks (regardless of direction) for 15 seconds, 10m re-use. (RM RR5)
Phoenix Change: none
Thoughts: Reactionary Escape Tool.
Strong vs Melee, bad vs Ranged and Spells. OK open field, better for Tower/Keep fight.
Maybe include Ranged attacks as well?
Wall of Fire – Allows Insta-cast pulsing PBAE damage (400 every 3 seconds) in radius of 150 units. 15s duration, 15m re-use. (Wizard RR5)
Phoenix Change: none (values?)
Thoughts: Proactive AoE Damage Tool.
Strong vs Melee, bad vs Ranged and Spells. Lackluster open field, better for Tower/Keep fight.
In conjunction with TWF and NM this becomes the new Meta.
Spirit Martyr – Sacrifices pet to heal the group for up to 600 points each. 10m re-use. (SM RR5)
Phoenix Change: none
Thoughts: Reactive Recovery Tool.
SM usually don't want to lose their Pets, same with BD, Necro and Caby. The Ench is the one who might pick this up.
Maybe enhance the Values? Seems lackluster.
Resolute Minion – Pet is immune to all forms of Crowd Control for 60 seconds. Will not purge any CC that already exists on the pet. 60s duration, 10m re-use. (Cab RR5)
Phoenix Change: none
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
Strong pets even stronger. Busted on Necro. This or necro need change.
Protection of the Underhill - health buffer that absorbs 50% of the physical and magical damage dealt up to a maximum of 2000 damage on pet. lasts for 10 minutes or until depleted. 10 min re-use (Ench RR5)
Phoenix Change: From User to Pet.
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
Even this seems too much on the necro. Maybe increase Timer? Shorten duration? Seems fine with the other classes.
Soul Quench – Insta PBAE-350 damage for 250 points, heals for 80% of value. 10m re-use. (Reaver RR5)
Phoenix Change: 75% changed to 80% (values? Damage was influenced by SR skill and piety stat)
Thoughts: Proactive AoE Damage/Recovery Tool.
Possible Solo choice.
Influenced by Resists? Disease? Lower PBAE Range?
Vale Defense – Gives the group a 300 point 50% ablative magical and melee, double value on self, that lasts for 10 minutes or until depleted. 10m duration, 10m re-use.(VW RR5)
Phoenix Change: Double Value on Self (300 -> 600)
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
Should be go-to Grp choice. Still Solo viable, thanks to the double Value.
Maybe increase re-use timer?
Selfless Devotion - Pulse a 300(depending on grp size) point group heal with a 750 unit range every 3-seconds for 15-seconds total. 15m re-use (Paladin RR5)
Phoenix Change: Total Value changed to make it depending on Grp Size (solo nerf)
Thoughts: Reactive Recovery Tool.
Possible Grp Choice. Will not change the Pala status, as long as the reaver can have it too.
Maybe too much stability for 8mans, otherwise seems fine.
Badge of Valor – Makes damage indirectly proportional to ABS of target. 20s duration, 15m re-use. (Champ RR5)
Phoenix Change: none
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
THE Solo pick.
Currently, removed by Phoenix Stuff. Never bring it up again, even with adjusted values. never.
Soldier's Citadel - 50% bonus to parry and block rates for 30 seconds, but -15% bloc/parry rates for 15 seconds after. 15m re-use. (Arms RR5)
Phoenix Change: -10% changed to -15%, Rates can exceed the 50% cap.
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
Solo and Grp viable.
Very Strong vs Melee and Ranged, useless vs Spells. OK open field, better in Tower/Keep
Powerfull when combined with Dashing Defense.
Combat Awareness - Hero gains a 360 degree 100% evade for 30 seconds, Hero will also be snared by 50%. (Hero RR5)
Phoenix Change: 50% Attack power Debuff changed to NO Debuff
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
THE Solo pick.
Very Strong vs Melee and Ranged, useless vs Spells.
Snare forced through SoS? Snare Purge-able?
Testudo – Target takes 90% less damage from all attacks but cannot attack and no speed is granted to user. 45s duration, 15m re-use. (Warrior RR5)
Phoenix Change: none
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
Hold the Lord in a AoE Battle. Relic carrier? AoE Bait? Very niche.
SoS? Disarm Purge-able? Damage reduced vs other RA? (TWF, NM, etc.)
Ferocious Will – Gives the Berzerker an ABS buff of 25%, 25% magic resists, 25% chance shrug of CC. Lasts 30 seconds total., 10m re-use. (Zerk RR5)
Phoenix Change: none
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
If it werent for the Merc RR5, this would be the go-to Ability.
Blade Barrier – Grants 90% chance to parry all melee, but cannot attack (Disarm). 25% less spell dmg, 30s duration, , 5m re-use. (BM RR5)
Phoenix Change: 25% less Damage changed into 25% less Spell Damage, Disarm added
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
Not sure why anyone want to pick this, even with short re-use timer. PvE?
Disarm purge-able?
15% more melee dmg, debuff & mezz purge, 100% immune to debuffs, takes 15% more dmg (Merc RR5)
Phoenix Change: no clue, i dont remember this one.
Thoughts: Reactive Buff Tool.
Free Mezz and debuff purge? immune to Debuff (body, heat,cold)? 15% trade-off, yeah.
THE pick, solo or Grp.
Duration? re-use?
15% bonus to hit (Infi RR5)
Phoenix Change: no clue, i dont remember this one.
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
flat to-hit bonus is nice. not really worth it when...
15 sec life leech attacks (SB RR5)
Phoenix Change: no clue, i dont remember this one.
Thoughts: Proactive Buff Tool.
...u can have this.
Cure NS, 60 sec immunity, 20% range increase & 20 sec NS shots (Scout RR5)
Phoenix Change: no clue, i dont remember this one.
Thoughts: Reactive Buff Tool.
This is nuts.
Remedy – Negates poisons on the target by decreasing HP by 10%, then causes immunity to poisons. Can be safely activated in stealth. 60s duration, 5m re-use. (NS RR5)
Phoenix Change: none
Thoughts: Reactive Buff Tool.
Currently, removed by Phoenix Stuff. never.
Currently unmentioned/unused RR5 that can be in pool: Whirling Staff – PBAE attack that does moderate damage and makes all melee targets in 350 radius unable to attack for 6 seconds. 6s duration, 10m re-use (Friar RR5)
Why is this not in?
Snapshot – Allows the crossbow to be drawn and fired whilst moving. 60s duration, 10m re-use. (Arms RR5)
Too class specific? Could be integrated into skill line tbh, even with lower cooldown. Or change it to throwing weapon for Hero,Warr and Arms.
Fantacism – Groupmates that are able to bind at keeps or Towers have more resistance to spell damage. 45s duration, 15m re-use (Heretic RR5)
ignore this.
Assassinate – Infiltrator selects a target within 750 range and spends 15 seconds (without moving) preparing the assassination attempt. The attempt fails (but the recast timer is not reset) if the assassin takes any action during those 15 seconds, or if the target moves more then 750 units away from the user. Once prepared, the next attack on that target by the assassin will not break stealth. 10m re-use. (infi RR5)
ignore this.
Blinding Dust – Insta-cast PBAE Attack that causes the enemy to have a 25% chance to fumble melee/bow attacks for the next 15 seconds. 15s duration, 5m re-use. (Merc RR5)
How this is supposed to "hit" bow attackers is beyond me, but w/e.
Calming Notes – Insta-mezzes enemy pets in a 750 radius. 30s duration, 5m re-use. (Minstrel RR5)
Why is this not in? Get rid of all the Pets. in fact, make it ignore immunity.
Call of Darkness – When active, the necromancer can summon a pet with only a 3 second cast time. The effect remains active for 15 minutes, or until a pet is summoned. (Necro RR5)
too class specific.
Selfless Devotion – Group heal chant value is tripled. 60s duration, 15m re-use. (Pala RR5)
too class specific, no heal chant anymore on phoenix
Shield Trip – Throws shield at enemy, causing root, but scout cannot attack. 10s duration, 15m re-use. (Scout RR5)
Lower re-use to 10sec and change this into the shield style instead of the current one.
Shield of Immunity – Shield that absorbs 90% melee/archer damage for 20 seconds, 15m re-use. (Sorc RR5)
maybe viable with lower value and duration.
Minion Rescue – 2 second cast (non-interruptible) PBAE that summons 1 level 50 fire elemental for every enemy within 500 radius. (max 8) Pets have 50 hit points, but proc a 3 second stun (duration unaffected by resists). The fire elementals have a max durations of 6 seconds.. 15m re-use. (Theu RR5)
ignore this abomination
Fungral Union – Turns the animist into a mushroom for 60 seconds. Does not break on attack. Grants the animist a 10% chance of not spending power for each spell cast during the duration. 60s duration, 5m re-use. (Animist RR5)
Get rid of the polymorph aspect, adjust values, and it may be viable option.
Dreamweaver – Bard creates an illusion that makes him or her self look like a different race and class for a 5 minute duration. The bard's instrument also takes the illusion of another weapon and no spell effects are shown when casting a spell. 5m duration, 10m re-use. (Bard RR5)
tough one, i guess keep it away, and keep the Game polymorph free.
Sonic Barrier – Increases ABS of group. 45s duration, 10m re-use. (Bansh RR5)
Adjusting values, and this could be in.
Searing Pet – Causes the pet to cast a PBAE DoT that ticks for 6 times for 25 points of damage per tick. 2m re-use. (Ench RR5)
underwhelming? adjusting values and it seems fine.
Tactics – Group buff to increase block/parry/evade by 10%. 30s duration, 10m re-use. (Hero RR5)
why is this not in? values?
Blissful Ignorance – Grants a no-hit penalty from self buffs. 30s duration, 5m re-use. (Savage RR5)
too class specific.
Selective Blindness – AE of 150 units, 1500 units range, blinds enemies to user. Breaks if attacked by user. 20s duration, 5m re-use. (Ment RR5)
dont. ever.
Desperate Bowman – Bow style. Does 300 damage and a 5 second (non resistible) stun. Bow and melee cannot be used for 15 seconds afterwards. 15m re-use. (Ranger RR5)
Why is this not in? Adjust values + timers and it seems fine.
Fury of Nature – Double style damage. All damage done returns 100% to the group in spread heal form. (excluding the warden). 30s duration, 10m re-use. (Warden RR5)
Why is this not in?
Allure of Death – BD and pets take skeletal form and gives a 75% chance to resist crowd control and nearsight. 60s duration, 10m re-use. (BD RR5)
yeah right...ignore this.
Entwining Stakes – 50% snare in 350 units radius. 20s duration, 10m re-use. (Hunter RR5)
Adjust duration and re-use timers and this is fine.
Shadow Strike – Shadowblade takes 10 seconds to disappear in the shadows. Once in the shadows the SB will automatically teleport to and perf any enemy they choose within 1000 radius. Usable only at night. Can not be used to enter a locked keep or tower. 60s duration, 10m re-use. (SB RR5)
Don't. Ignore this.
Epiphany – 25% Group power refresh. Skald must be out of combat to use. (group members may be in combat. 10m re-use. (Skald RR5)
Seems fine tbh. why is this not in?
Chain Lightning – Leaping DD spell from initial target, hops up to 5 more withing 500 units. 10m re-use. (Thane RR5)
too class specific.
Valhalla’s Blessing – Spells and styles used by group have chance of not using endurance/power. 10m re-use. (Valk RR5)
Why is this not in?
Boiling Cauldron – Summons a cauldron that boils in place for 5s before spilling and doing damage to all those nearby. 15m re-use. (Warlock RR5)
dont. Wiz RR5 is already enough
Gift of Perizor - Reduces damage on all players in the user's group by 25% for 60 seconds. Damage reduced by this ability is returned to the user in power. (Mauler RR5)
no. just no.
Mark of Prey - Grants all members of the Vampiir's group a 30 second damage add that stacks with all other forms of damage add. All damage done via the damage add will be returned to the Vampiir as power. (Vamp RR5)
basically anger of the gods, with mana. ignore this.
worrying that the guy in charge thinks that giving sorcs and theurgs eld rr5's, giving savage merc rr5, is "minor, if even that"
Read my text again, minor effect on the meta. Those classes were already popular and hence them getting new toys doesn't change their usage.
Why implement new stuff just to buff the current meta then? Normaly you would implement new stuff to change the meta and make underplayed classes viable ... btw rr5 on live were done that way thats also the reason why there were shit tier and godlike rr5
Can't, people cry about changes, see the style thread. Doesn't matter that about half the styles in the game are entirely pointless with some entire weapon lines not having the basics making them dead lines (e. g. axe, sword).
ok, so you dont implement style changes because ppl would cry ... but you want to implement rr5's in the current fashion because ppl ... dont cry?
You'd pretty much see the exact same response to shears as you do now to RR5s.
so theres basically no reason not to implement em ... your logic is kinda flawed
after all the current changes (this abomination, crit changes, hp changes, melee changes, most class changes) i personally think you maybe should take like 1 person from every realm and of the three major play styles (solo, 8vs8, zerg) who is capable of understanding the overall meta and takes these ppl to consult you about meta relevant changes before you even start to code anything
Chain change will still come, the entire reason for the delay is that I would like to fix more than just that to then consider styles "done", the problem is just the how / how exactly.
A server with a "classical" base which is less and less classic... really it's not this kind of change that will bring the players back.
#WaitingArealServerClassic
From the get go we said we're based on 1.65 with changes from there. In case it's unclear what that means: You start with 1.65 and then make changes, usually those changes take at the very least inspiration from later patch levels if not outright using something from later patch levels, sometimes it means entirely custom things.
This here would be a mix: The inspiration being some new ability at RR5 as well as the concept of those abilities with most even being the actual live versions.
Examples for custom things would be craftqueue, increasing regeneration rate the longer you sit, ds/hoh, auto tasks.
A server with a "classical" base which is less and less classic... really it's not this kind of change that will bring the players back.
#WaitingArealServerClassic
From the get go we said we're based on 1.65 with changes from there. In case it's unclear what that means: You start with 1.65 and then make changes, usually those changes take at the very least inspiration from later patch levels if not outright using something from later patch levels, sometimes it means entirely custom things.
This here would be a mix: The inspiration being some new ability at RR5 as well as the concept of those abilities with most even being the actual live versions.
Examples for custom things would be craftqueue, increasing regeneration rate the longer you sit, ds/hoh, auto tasks.
Since it's custom can you take stealth lore out? Or give sins mez blade so we have a counter?
Maybe tinker with detection too, so that any visi can't just slow walk around and pop me with their staff for a fg?
I'm not opposed to the idea of adding RR5s. However, I would prefer them to be class specific to preserve some uniqueness. Providing choices when there's an inherent meta in each category doesn't merit the current implementation, imo. You may as well make custom RR5s uniform amongst each category with distinct effects (I e. Support gets cheat death RA, Mages an escape tool, Tanks CC immunity, etc).
From the get go we said we're based on 1.65 with changes from there. In case it's unclear what that means: You start with 1.65 and then make changes, usually those changes take at the very least inspiration from later patch levels if not outright using something from later patch levels, sometimes it means entirely custom things.
This here would be a mix: The inspiration being some new ability at RR5 as well as the concept of those abilities with most even being the actual live versions.
Examples for custom things would be craftqueue, increasing regeneration rate the longer you sit, ds/hoh, auto tasks.
I thinks just too many custom kill the custom... I'm not sure this is what the players are waiting for.
This all needs more thought. The more I look at it the more flaws.
Eld rr5 ability - massive utility, very powerful ability.
Available for;
3 X Hib classes (Eld, Ment, Ani)
3 X Alb classes (Sorc, Theurg, Wiz)
1 X Mid class (RM)
Sorc is albs main CC, and Elds and Ments are abundant in RvR.
RM - Not a very popular class in Mid and the ONLY class with proposed Eld rr5
I am especially worried about alb castergroups in 8v8. Those are right now at mid/high rr stronger than every other 8v8 lineup and can't be beaten in an even inc, if played perfectly.
This status will be buffed to the skies by sorcs getting eld/rm rr5 and arms getting an almost 100% group anti melee dashing defense combo RA.
Same problem will apply for hib castergroups, while taking the chance of a BM/Champ away to be played as a peeler, as only hero gets the new op close to 100% group body guard vs melee dmg.
edit: I think adding RR5s is exciting and i am rly not against it, i just think we have to be very careful with balancing this!
Maybe giving Eld and RM their rr5s is a great idea, while better not giving it to sorc and menty, who both can have pets and are much stronger in grp utility.
Ench and sm are also lacking a lot of utility in comparison to cabba, so maybe give them something stronger than a pet immune to cc or melee dmg.
A server with a "classical" base which is less and less classic... really it's not this kind of change that will bring the players back.
#WaitingArealServerClassic
From the get go we said we're based on 1.65 with changes from there. In case it's unclear what that means: You start with 1.65 and then make changes, usually those changes take at the very least inspiration from later patch levels if not outright using something from later patch levels, sometimes it means entirely custom things.
This here would be a mix: The inspiration being some new ability at RR5 as well as the concept of those abilities with most even being the actual live versions.
Examples for custom things would be craftqueue, increasing regeneration rate the longer you sit, ds/hoh, auto tasks.
Classic was definitely part of the original advertisement. Now it has become clear the Classic part was nothing more than a marketing trick. It's become a full-blown progression server.
At some point the players who started here because of the initial charm will play here only because there's no viable alternative around. That's the beginning of a fragile and dwindling playerbase.
A server with a "classical" base which is less and less classic... really it's not this kind of change that will bring the players back.
#WaitingArealServerClassic
From the get go we said we're based on 1.65 with changes from there. In case it's unclear what that means: You start with 1.65 and then make changes, usually those changes take at the very least inspiration from later patch levels if not outright using something from later patch levels, sometimes it means entirely custom things.
This here would be a mix: The inspiration being some new ability at RR5 as well as the concept of those abilities with most even being the actual live versions.
Examples for custom things would be craftqueue, increasing regeneration rate the longer you sit, ds/hoh, auto tasks.
Im eager for the change. RvR has become stale and this may bring a new dynamic to adapt to.
A server with a "classical" base which is less and less classic... really it's not this kind of change that will bring the players back.
#WaitingArealServerClassic
At some point the players who started here because of the initial charm will play here only because there's no viable alternative around. That's the beginning of a fragile and dwindling playerbase.
Classic was definitely part of the original advertisement. Now it has become clear the Classic part was nothing more than a marketing trick. It's become a full-blown progression server.
At some point the players who started here because of the initial charm will play here only because there's no viable alternative around. That's the beginning of a fragile and dwindling playerbase.
Most official messaging was rather careful to say 1.65 as the base and changes from there and maybe something like classic inspired thrown in. However, there is no denying that since launch the stance of some more classic leaning staff members has shifted to be more open.
The problem with patch level authentic servers, regardless of the chosen patch level, is twofold, each and every patch level has issues, lots and lots of issues, many of which will have been fixed in later versions and the other part is that it just becomes stale.
For older games as the server life goes on there is a general downward trend as new players are rare when compared to current titles, that means it's important to get as many people as possible in the launch to be left with a healthy population 3 months down the line after the typical new mmo exodus.
Pure patch level following shards in pretty much any game have just the downward trend inherent to older games.
Shards that follow a strict patch progression as done by the original game (ie most wow vanilla shards, many everquest shards, wow classic) have rather big upticks at every new content release followed by a quick player loss again, pretty much the same as on launch although with obviously a less pronouncend spike and loss, and coupled with the general downward trend, however, depending on the specific content patch it can mean you can retain more returning players than you lost between the last content phase and this one.
Custom changes can go either way
Things that go against the general downward trend are events and changes, events help make it less stale but especially to get people to return, usually it's just for the event though. Changes are less so for getting players back and more to prevent people from leaving due the normal decay from it just becoming stale.
Both are somewhat dangerous though, you can't have constant events as then it just becomes nothing special anymore and it then would also disrupt the normal gameplay potentially to the point that people who prefer the normal gameplay leave. Changes can also be dangerous in that people that _really_ don't like them will leave, here it is a balance act if you think the change will keep more people who would have left due to staleness versus those leaving because of the change.
A combination of both is kind of our approach, the thinking being people who left due to staleness return for a fun event and see that some things have changed since they left which might make them stay longer than just the event.
The only lasting but at least for older games incredibly risky way to keep a population is seasons as the launch of each season is pretty much a new server launch with the corresponding launch phase that is just entirely unlike the normal day to day action a month or two after launch, even people who don't like a particular game will most likely enjoy the launch phase of such a game.
Current titles / progression servers can do it in a more subtle way: expansions, the prime example here would be wow where every expansions is pretty much a complete reset although you get to carry over cosmetics and some achievements, daoc kind of tried that with SI / spellcrafting and later mostly did it with toa / mls but due to RR a big part of player power / progression was not reset.
For most older games most freeshard players usually are already effectively playing seasons by jumping to new servers as they are released.
I'm all for RR5 abilities, but i think it would be better to stick with unique abilities for every class. Then if a class needs an ability adjusted or redesigned, go for it while keeping everything unique. I'm also all for giving the RR5 ability at Lvl50 R1L1 so people that are new/low rank aren't gimped in this area till RR5.
Any chance for a response on a vote for class specific only? Or does it have to be this way or nothing?
This way or nothing.
There is no way to make a sensible unique ability for each class in a reasonable amount of time that isn't either entirely over the top or totally useless or just the same thing of another.
you do know that you don’t have to create custom brand new abilities for every class right? lol. why can’t we just have what was already created for them. there’s no need to go full custom here. I am not a fan of having casters be able to have eld rr5 and just speed 6 away. not sure how you think that’s a good idea at all.
No Spec Healers
Spec Healers
Slow Speed Classes
Fast Speed Classes
Long Mezz Classes
Small Mezz Classes
Bubble Classes
Endo Classes
Slam Classes
Det Classes
Instant Heal Classes
Ranged Stun Classes
Instant Quirk Class
1 style side-snare class
1 style back snare class
2 style peel class
Bolt classes
Pom classes
GTAoE classes
PbAoE classes
Pet classes
Remove Mezz class
Stoicism Classes
[...]
Then give an ability/quirk for each of these categories, then people can choose one of them from PvE grind (50 completions) and another from PvP grind (5L)
For example:
a sorc could be part of slow speed class, long mezz class, remove mezz class, pom class, pet class, elemental debuff class, DD assist train class
a bard could be part of spec healer (AF), Fast Speed Class, Long Mezz Class, Endo Class, Remove Mezz Class, PoM class, Instant Quirk Class, 1 style side snare class, cure disease class, rez class.
even though they are part of 10 types of classes, they could have the selection of only 1 of 2 or 1 of 3 style at the discretion of GM:
maybe they will get access to PoM, Peel, Fast Speed, while a Sorc might have access to DDassist/Slow Speed/Remove Mezz
This will allow some legroom to tune classes.
Firstly, although my memory is not the best, I thought the Infy was 15% to increased defense penetration not basic +hit. I remember scrolling through logs to see if it was working, and there'd be lines like:
"You attempt Dark Tendrils. Your Target attempts a parry, but you overwhelm him."
Still niche, but perhaps more useful.
Second, will my Infy be able to Nearsight people with a xbow?
Giving this ability to so many casters will be a big issue in zerg fights. Every tower & keep fight will further devolve into RA spam. TWF, Maelstrom, ST and now Wall of Flame.
For people who don't know what that is:
Insta-cast spell that drops a ward that pulses a 150 radius PBAE fire based for 15 seconds. Pulse is 400 points of damage every 3 seconds.
Basically an instant maelstrom that immediatly pulses at almost max damage (500 for maelstrom) but in a smaller radius (150 compared to 350 for maelstrom.. for comparison think of the radius of catapult damage.)
Due to the nature of that being an instant spell with immediate high damage pulses and a radius sufficiently big for towers this will be spammed a lot in ZvZ tower & keep fights. Especially because almost every caster can get this ability and because it is the only proper choice for ZvZ chars (the other 2 options are mainly for 8mans).
The RR5 would be a disaster on this server, both in 8v8 and zerg fighting. Also, if this is what you ended to do all along why didn't you bring it up BEFORE the event. I know a lot of people, myself included, would have made a different character(s) for the event. If you are dead set in rolling this out then I would suggesting making getting to rr5L5 as easy as it was in the event. Also, iIf you wanted to add something new consider adding master level encounters in ToA for feathers, not to get the abilities.
I'm all for RR5 abilities, but i think it would be better to stick with unique abilities for every class. Then if a class needs an ability adjusted or redesigned, go for it while keeping everything unique. I'm also all for giving the RR5 ability at Lvl50 R1L1 so people that are new/low rank aren't gimped in this area till RR5.
This right here. What would be a fine rr5 ability for one class maybe totally broken for one and useless to another.
Also judging by the choices, it seems to me that you are following the same path as spec lines. Some are good and some are useless relatively speaking. Why introduce something if no one is really going to pick it over something else? Isn't that the very same thought process that helped get here in the first place?
This "vision" by the dev team is the exact reason why there was such concern over the style review (along with the "archery revamp" and now this seems to confirm that, at least to me.
If you would like to add the rr5 abilities then please use the old RR5 abilities without options as it used to be after all the developers had already
thought of something over 10 years ago.
Also judging by the choices, it seems to me that you are following the same path as spec lines. Some are good and some are useless relatively speaking. Why introduce something if no one is really going to pick it over something else? Isn't that the very same thought process that helped get here in the first place?
There will be an actual choice when they go live. But as with any choice, something will be objectively better in specific circumstances.
Like I said earlier in this thread, I believe this to be the case for the pet casters already with a different option for solo and group fights and keep fights. Hybrids also looks like an actual choice to me now same with full tanks.
But yes in some cases there isn't a real choice and in many groupings there is an absolutely useless ability compared to the others, the latter is pretty much because we're just using actual RR5s (old or new) and not entirely custom ones for the list.
However, necro and possibly the eld rr5 (or to be more specific the classes that would no longer get access to it) will force us to make something else anyways.
because the strongest abilities/combinations that people complain about mostly affect meta-classes and therefor it won't change the Meta, the changes are only minor?
hmm wierd way to approach class-/comp-balance imo
Buffing the biggest populations creates the least whines, yeah, but doesn't lead to a good game longterm. Caster kitegroups are already the strongest comps and buffing casters mobility and supports defense is not outweighed by melees having more dmg if they are able to reach a caster. A kited melee with 25%more dmg is still not killing anything.
Melees would need more tools to hinder kiting to counter increased mobility
Imo this late into the server, you basically can not change the meta with balanced changes. If everything is perfectly balanced, only few people would switch from their classes that they are comfortable with and have hundreds of hours invested to switch to a class that needs those hundreds of hours before it reaches the same level again.
If there’s no choice because one ability is better than another then what’s the point in choice in the first place if something will be ‘meta’ ? May as well focus on class specific RR5 abilities, and trying to get them right/useful.
It’s like Levi spam when your purge is down, you don’t mind dying to it once in a while because only one class has it. Imagine Thane, Champ, Pally also had a reactive rear style proc, it would get tiresome and annoying.
Same principle applies here, because you’re going to have a ton of CC immune pets running around from all different classes, and all light tanks will have %15dmg, and all none-pet casters darting around with %215 speed when they get in the slightest bit of trouble etc
Seeing as rr5 abilities are being contemplated. What about some balance in realm abilities across each realm? You can. See there is an attempte to give every realm and indeed character a choice of what rr5 they want yet some realms still fall behind in current ra's that literally win or lose battles like ichor/st for example. Some parity on classes obtaining these abilities and balance before we move onto rr5 abilities and a new argument begins because of realm differences?
I believe in the phx team’s ability to implement this right.
Cause and effect being clear is one of the best parts about Phoenix. 99% of abilities here are unambiguous. I do worry that some of these rr5 abilities will need graphical overhauls to maintain that.
Some examples: Cabby rr5 is not an inherently clear ability: you only know the pet is CC immune *after* attempting to CC it. Eld rr5 has been a constant source for speed hack accusations over the years, especially when it is used to ‘catch’ a group rather than for its kite intention. Cleric rr5 is very long ability but historically had a very short initial graphic that is easy to miss.
tl:dr
Well defined, lasting, graphics for every rr5 is paramount. Don’t let strong abilities be ambiguous.
Oh and,
Necro probably needs its own category and only 1 choice of r5.
Same problem will apply for hib castergroups, while taking the chance of a BM/Champ away to be played as a peeler, as only hero gets the new op close to 100% group body guard vs melee dmg.
I´m worried too that giving def tanks another group-friendly RA (on top of Soldier´s Barricade and Dashing Defense) while off tanks and hybrids get nada will remove the later from groups that want 1 tank for peels. Also I feel that currently off tanks would need something akin charge (they can already do less than other tanks when not in melee range) yet somehow it´s the casters who would get to Eld RR5 charge away or to Cab RR5 CC immune their pets on enemy support.
And that´s just for 8v8, in smallman/solo the Eld or Cab RR5 throws off gameplay even more, with casters instant warping away or CC immune pets which cannot be spike dps killed or possibly ate the only quickcast CC attempt somebody had.
I believe in the phx team’s ability to implement this right.
Cause and effect being clear is one of the best parts about Phoenix. 99% of abilities here are unambiguous. I do worry that some of these rr5 abilities will need graphical overhauls to maintain that.
Some examples: Cabby rr5 is not an inherently clear ability: you only know the pet is CC immune *after* attempting to CC it. Eld rr5 has been a constant source for speed hack accusations over the years, especially when it is used to ‘catch’ a group rather than for its kite intention. Cleric rr5 is very long ability but historically had a very short initial graphic that is easy to miss.
tl:dr
Well defined, lasting, graphics for every rr5 is paramount. Don’t let strong abilities be ambiguous.
Oh and,
Necro probably needs its own category and only 1 choice of r5.
gruenesschaf wrote: See it cancels itself out perfectly, you see the 25% damage svg coming towards you and you charge away, the svg will then switch to the hero who turns into a turtle. Perfect.
a savage beating on a hero, that, despite having turned into a turtle, has 100% evade, and a caster from the hero's group that has just gotten free? How would that cancel out anything? Generally a horrible idea that IMHO will be impossible to balance.
You obviously forgot that the adding scout now nearsighted the caster.
lul wut?
What if he nearsighted the healer? I also doubt its a problem for the caster. Warden is bored anyways so will be happy to get some ns cures out. but is pretty cool for the pac to get an extra button to press.
And why shoud a savage go for a shield class? oO
When everything cancel itself out why would you implement it? Missed the post with your intention.
I cant believe nobody has mentioned the massive flaw in this when it comes to tank groups vs caster groups.
Having no charge on light tanks will leave people running on sprint speed after full caster groups who are able to use the Eld RR5 to port away, re-position and just stun, debuff and nuke down, all whilst the support are trying to heal / clear nearsight / clear disease etc. This will be the death of Midgard 8 mans as only Hib / Alb have viable caster groups that are able to be played by average players
When everything cancel itself out why would you implement it? Missed the post with your intention.
[/quote]
Exactly. I fail to see the point in implementing this. I only see things being worse. There is just not reason for this. Do people just need another button to push?
Stun procc when hit (Cleric RR5)
5sec convert all damage to heal, self silence (Druid RR5)
Selfrezz (Healer RR5)
The one thing this game does NOT need is ANY more crowd control via stuns/mezz/root/snares or whatever. Can you please focus on something that helps keep all players playing their character as opposed to PREVENTING players from playing their chars via CC.
Classes: Eld, Menta, Runemaster, Wizard, Sorc, Theurg, Animist
10 sec 215% charge, will break on cast (Eld RR5)
90% advanced evade (RM RR5)
Wall of Flame (Wizard RR5)
Melee damage is bad enough already, which is why it takes multiple tanks to assist on a single cloth wearing caster to kill it, so if you're going to harden casters more than they already are via PD and such, can you focus on hardening them agains casted damage please. Ty.
Pet Caster Classes: SM, BD, Cab, Ench, Necro
Pet release = group heal (SM RR5)
pet 1 min CC immunity (Cab RR5)
2000 MHB on pet (Ench RR5)
Between perma-stun thurg pets and pets completely ignoring doors and walls, can we not make these characters more ridiculous than they are now by buffing them even further please.
Full Tanks Classes: Warrior, Hero, Armsman
50% block and parry increase then 15% decrease (Arms RR5)
100% evade and slowed (Hero RR5)
Testudo (Warrior RR5)
ALL of these tank abilities are absolutely terrible for melee characters as they focus on the wrong threat, and actually make the character WORSE for using them. They should be scrapped, and left in dumpster fire that is the live server.
1. We ALREADY have defense against melee in the form of shields, parry, and evade. We don't need more, let alone any that's going to make us useless and unable to move so the caster train has an easier time nuking us.
2. We need defense against MAGIC attacks, both damage and CC.
3. How about a single or group magic feedback spell that reverses damage or CC by a percentage?
4. How about an instant group CC removal spell, duration reduction spell, or shield?
5. How about a magic reduction buff spell?
6. How about a heal in or out of combat spell?
7. Maybe a cast speed reduction spell, or a heal speed buff spell?
Regardless, please consider an ability that doesn't PUNISH the user for using it by making them less effective after they use it, snared, or unable to use their weapon?
Light Tanks Classes: Berserker, Blademaster, Mercenary, Savage
25% melee absorb, 25% magic resists, 25% chance to lose CC (Zerk RR5)
disarm, 90% parry chance, 25% less spell dmg (BM RR5)
15% more melee dmg, debuff & mezz purge, 100% immune to debuffs, takes 15% more dmg (Merc RR5)
Again, same as the heavy tanks, we don't need defense against melee, as melee dps is low enough as it is, and we already HAVE melee defense. We need defense against magic.
Can we get some grouping abilities that make us more viable to grouped chars? Disease/poison heal? Maybe a disease /poison wpn proc spell. Increase in stealth detection.
See it cancels itself out perfectly, you see the 25% damage svg coming towards you and you charge away, the svg will then switch to the hero who turns into a turtle. Perfect.
So both melee characters are rendered useless. The savage is wasting his time with the hero, and the hero can't do anything but suck up damage like a training dummy.
That's far from "perfect".
Abilities should enhance play, not eliminate it the way CC and some of these ill thought out "abilities" do.
No guesses as to the gm’s favoured classes / realms are here.
RIP Tanks
RIP light tanks
RIP Mid
Quite frankly the gm’s response about a 25% damage savage turning on a Hero is ridiculous. The caster ports away and assist nukes you down whilst the hero uses moose mode and out lives your damage 🙄
charge is going to be implemented to compensate eld rr5
/rumor mode off
NF Charge alone wouldn't help, melee groups would need some more control ability like prevent flight again to keep the kiting a bit more under control imho.
I'm pretty much okay with the RR5s, just with the Phoenix TTK adjustments it feels like the Cab (CC Immune Pet) and Eld (215% Charge) RA are a bit over the top. At least my uneducated prediction would be that the meta heavily shifts away from melee groups without further adjustments there.
Will definitely be interesting when the change goes on live and see how it evolves.
Quite frankly the gm’s response about a 25% damage savage turning on a Hero is ridiculous. The caster ports away and assist nukes you down whilst the hero uses moose mode and out lives your damage 🙄
Soon to be Phoenix caster shard
My thoughts exactly. Why would a savage, who has just popped his rr5, switch targets to a hero only to get slammed and snared
I really believe Mid is the forgotten about realm on this server is many respects
charge is going to be implemented to compensate eld rr5
/rumor mode off
NF Charge alone wouldn't help, melee groups would need some more control ability like prevent flight again to keep the kiting a bit more under control imho.
I'm pretty much okay with the RR5s, just with the Phoenix TTK adjustments it feels like the Cab (CC Immune Pet) and Eld (215% Charge) RA are a bit over the top. At least my uneducated prediction would be that the meta heavily shifts away from melee groups without further adjustments there.
Will definitely be interesting when the change goes on live and see how it evolves.
offtanks do have prevent flight baseline!
the only offtank who does not have it is the soooo OP SVG
NF Charge alone wouldn't help, melee groups would need some more control ability like prevent flight again to keep the kiting a bit more under control imho.
I'm pretty much okay with the RR5s, just with the Phoenix TTK adjustments it feels like the Cab (CC Immune Pet) and Eld (215% Charge) RA are a bit over the top. At least my uneducated prediction would be that the meta heavily shifts away from melee groups without further adjustments there.
Will definitely be interesting when the change goes on live and see how it evolves.
offtanks do have prevent flight baseline!
the only offtank who does not have it is the soooo OP SVG
the "meta" is caster grps btw
oh, mea culpa, I got something wrong there then and/or just looked at the savage But yeh the meta is more in favour to casters, but right now melee groups are still viable. Hibs run them quite often successfully, and mids have not really a choice anyway.
NF Charge alone wouldn't help, melee groups would need some more control ability like prevent flight again to keep the kiting a bit more under control imho.
I'm pretty much okay with the RR5s, just with the Phoenix TTK adjustments it feels like the Cab (CC Immune Pet) and Eld (215% Charge) RA are a bit over the top. At least my uneducated prediction would be that the meta heavily shifts away from melee groups without further adjustments there.
Will definitely be interesting when the change goes on live and see how it evolves.
offtanks do have prevent flight baseline!
the only offtank who does not have it is the soooo OP SVG
the "meta" is caster grps btw
oh, mea culpa, I got something wrong there then and/or just looked at the savage But yeh the meta is more in favour to casters, but right now melee groups are still viable. Hibs run them quite often successfully, and mids have not really a choice anyway.
true but hib melee grp is in fact more a hybrid grp since VW deals magic dmg so they actually are able to do dmg, not like mid melees besides SVG with a 5% chance to quad lol
This Patch would be awesome if you allow RR5 mechanics to new created toons only.
You dont force a rollback, but ppl that want an actual rr5 need to reroll the class. This would bring again more fun into the brackets with lower rank groups.
Just an idea.
true but hib melee grp is in fact more a hybrid grp since VW deals magic dmg so they actually are able to do dmg, not like mid melees besides SVG with a 5% chance to quad lol
the issue for melee groups isn't their dmg type though, it'S not being able to reach your target. Yeah, a VW will still have some petty dmg while rooted, but otherwise they are running trying to get to a target just as other melees
and i really don't understand what you mean with comparing svg-quadhit to VW-magicdmg? Oo
true but hib melee grp is in fact more a hybrid grp since VW deals magic dmg so they actually are able to do dmg, not like mid melees besides SVG with a 5% chance to quad lol
the issue for melee groups isn't their dmg type though, it'S not being able to reach your target. Yeah, a VW will still have some petty dmg while rooted, but otherwise they are running trying to get to a target just as other melees
and i really don't understand what you mean with comparing svg-quadhit to VW-magicdmg? Oo
i know that. the point is that ppl argue against charge because then the sooo OP SVG would onehit everything while in charge..... which is a ridicolous claim
a well positioned VW can pull off his side chain pretty constanly so that every third hit is one with a style proc that does 200-300 dmg
SVG relys on rng VW does not
the issue for melee groups isn't their dmg type though, it'S not being able to reach your target.....
That and not having the DPS to actually kill your target unless you're assisted AND the healer is interupted/dead. These changes are just going to make it worse, and turn RvR into a bigger caster fest than it already is, due to the fact they have range, CC, dps to actually kill something efficiently, and soon a bunch of new toys to make them further impervious to anything other than 3 tank trains or debuff/assist caster trains.
And people wonder why so many archers and stealthers exist.
I came to phoenix to avoid all the out of balance "I win" tricks and overpowered abilities that make the live server such an unenjoyable joke to play, and yet HERE WE GO!!!!!!
If you're going to introduce abilities, then at least do it in a balanced manner, unlike the cancer that exists on the live server.
Examples..........
EVERY SINGLE heavy tank ability PUNISHES the user. Every single one. The Armsman gets punished with a 15% parry decrease, the Hero gets punished by being slowed, and the Warrior gets punished by not being able use speed buffs or his weapons. That makes ZERO sense. When one examines this list, the ONLY other group that suffers anything even remotely close to a penalty for using their ability are the LIGHT TANKS. Combine that with the fact their abilities focus on MELEE attacks only, which are a non-issue compared to the casted debuff/damage and cc attacks they have to deal with, and those realm abilities are some of THE dumbest ideas one could imagine being created for the heavy tank class. They should all be tossed in the garbage.
Then you have all the melee focused abilities while ignoring the magic damage component that's the REAL threat in this game.
Cleric stun - melee damage only? Why not casted damage too?
Caster abilities - Charge and evade, both focus on melee attacks
Pet caster - Offers a mhb but no protection from magic
Every ability that focuses on damage reduction should have parity across the board. A 25% damage reduction to melee damage has a FAR greater impact on melee damage than casted damage due to the dps code, and the fact that melee dps is garbage compared to casted.
This server exists because people want an alternative to the poor development decision making and gameplay that takes place on the live server, and it seems the developers are intent on repeating it for some reason?
@devs
some things to think about:
- Friar is still functional while self silenced, as he can attack just fine.
- Necro is the pet. So the MHB would give him 2000 more hits against melee.
- Minstrel is a hybrid? why no stealther or a pet class? this is a crucial choice as this is the most popular class and it is used in all playstyles (solo, small, FG, Zerg, stealth groups). by putting the minstrel in the hybrid category, you pretty much set the tone how this class is gonna (over)perform.
- archers? you tried to get them in check only a few weeks ago. now you propose this RR5 which will not hamper their popularity (to put it mildly).
I came to phoenix to avoid all the out of balance "I win" tricks and overpowered abilities that make the live server such an unenjoyable joke to play, and yet HERE WE GO!!!!!!
If you're going to introduce abilities, then at least do it in a balanced manner, unlike the cancer that exists on the live server.
Examples..........
EVERY SINGLE heavy tank ability PUNISHES the user. Every single one. The Armsman gets punished with a 15% parry decrease, the Hero gets punished by being slowed, and the Warrior gets punished by not being able use speed buffs or his weapons. That makes ZERO sense. When one examines this list, the ONLY other group that suffers anything even remotely close to a penalty for using their ability are the LIGHT TANKS. Combine that with the fact their abilities focus on MELEE attacks only, which are a non-issue compared to the casted debuff/damage and cc attacks they have to deal with, and those realm abilities are some of THE dumbest ideas one could imagine being created for the heavy tank class. They should all be tossed in the garbage.
Then you have all the melee focused abilities while ignoring the magic damage component that's the REAL threat in this game.
Cleric stun - melee damage only? Why not casted damage too?
Caster abilities - Charge and evade, both focus on melee attacks
Pet caster - Offers a mhb but no protection from magic
Every ability that focuses on damage reduction should have parity across the board. A 25% damage reduction to melee damage has a FAR greater impact on melee damage than casted damage due to the dps code, and the fact that melee dps is garbage compared to casted.
This server exists because people want an alternative to the poor development decision making and gameplay that takes place on the live server, and it seems the developers are intent on repeating it for some reason?
Because this is a caster friendly server and will be so forever. This is what many of us have been saying for the last months, getting nothing but flames and hate from the casters themself and getting totally ignored by the staff. This is why Mid is suffering so much, this is why Albion and Hibernia have such overpopulation numbers, and this is why this RR5 implementation will simply getting things even worse
I really hope that you consider to put this fundamental change to an open community vote. I think the server population is really divided regarding this change.
I come at this from the point of only playing the Friar. That is my class and I love it, so that's what I'll talk about here. Some people here have touched on it, but the silenced god-mode damage-to-health RR5 ability for a staff-friar will be pretty ridiculous. Take it from somebody whose conflicts of interest go the other way and will benefit from it immensely, this will be insane on staff friars. It will certainly synergize with Reflex Attack. Every hit you do on a friar will lead me to hit you for 200 damage (50% chance) and heal me for whatever hit me for. Also, how does this interact with poison? Will popping this ability let me turn a stealthier viper-5 poison into a 100-per-tick HoT? I think go back to the idea that you are stunned, not just silenced.
I actually prefer things like the self-res, which I heard may be out now? Sure it's cheesy, but it won't stop other players from being able to kill me and get their RPs. Also, if I rezz back up, I won't have any of my buffs. Catch a friar without their self-buffs and you can just thank us for our RP donation to you.
Also, I know that friars are in a uniquely bad position to deal with kiters, but the eld RR5 ability really worries me. I'm not stoked on pushing the kite-nuke game even further, but I'm sure its not so bad for other classes who have tools to deal with it.
Soremor - Staff Friar and endless source of RPs for Mids and Hibs.
@devs
some things to think about:
- Friar is still functional while self silenced, as he can attack just fine.
- Necro is the pet. So the MHB would give him 2000 more hits against melee.
- Minstrel is a hybrid? why no stealther or a pet class? this is a crucial choice as this is the most popular class and it is used in all playstyles (solo, small, FG, Zerg, stealth groups). by putting the minstrel in the hybrid category, you pretty much set the tone how this class is gonna (over)perform.
- archers? you tried to get them in check only a few weeks ago. now you propose this RR5 which will not hamper their popularity (to put it mildly).
Minstrel is not a pet class, like sorc & menta. They never been a pet class and they shouldn't be, but yeah Minst is a rogue.
They might as well just get rid of melee and stealth classes already, since apparently every game developer for DAOC lacks the will and ability to do anything other than make them fodder for ranged classes. Here's an idea.....make them pets. You need to take a keep? Grab some rams and get some tank pets. There you go. Done. Now players won't have to waste time on a tank that's just going to be made fodder and irrellevant in RvR by ranged classes and the stupid OP abilities given to them.
Dark Age of Castalot, indeed.
Just toss this dumb RA ability nonsense in the dumpster where it belongs, or make them PvE only, so we can get more people through darkspire, and don't mess up RvR anymore than it already is...
Pull your head out of your ass. At no point did I say to add them in addition to the rr5 stuff, I said INSTEAD of them if the devs are so hell-bent on adding character abilities. If you ever actually played with champ levels you wouldn't be getting this hysterical, since they're all but a minor QoL to character customization yet would fulfill the intent of adding ability options for players.
P.S. capslock may have been cool in 1997, but now it just makes you look like an hyper-emotional idiot.
Most here are this averse to any kind of change at first. The most recent example is probably the bleed change, some were predicting the spontaneous server combustion now that the age of the blademaster is upon us due to their powerful potential of using the side follow up being unleashed. In the end it was just as expected pretty much zero impact while no longer punishing you for using styles.
Now a new change is proposed, RR5 RAs, and the doomsayer are back at it. In the end it will just be a change that adds some new variety with some minor effect on the meta, if even that.
If we had proposed purchasable feather items with artefact /uses you would have seen the exact same despite also here nothing really changing as the really oppressive stuff would have been omitted, same for CLs where at most the disease would be questionable but you'd also get the same response to MLs where the argument that nothing really changes wouldn't hold in the face of zephyr, speedwarp, bodyguard and banelord and leaving those out wouldn't really be an option as those are the reason to implement them in the first place. It also would be the same response for alternative baseline nukes but it would also be true that this actually would change something in that it would open up some new setups (which would be the entire point).
Are you actually comparing a fricking bleed style change to allowing un-restricted access to RR5 abilites across the board? And you think this will be a minor change?
Pull your head out of your ass. At no point did I say to add them in addition to the rr5 stuff, I said INSTEAD of them if the devs are so hell-bent on adding character abilities. If you ever actually played with champ levels you wouldn't be getting this hysterical, since they're all but a minor QoL to character customization yet would fulfill the intent of adding ability options for players.
P.S. capslock may have been cool in 1997, but now it just makes you look like an hyper-emotional idiot.
Most here are this averse to any kind of change at first. The most recent example is probably the bleed change, some were predicting the spontaneous server combustion now that the age of the blademaster is upon us due to their powerful potential of using the side follow up being unleashed. In the end it was just as expected pretty much zero impact while no longer punishing you for using styles.
Now a new change is proposed, RR5 RAs, and the doomsayer are back at it. In the end it will just be a change that adds some new variety with some minor effect on the meta, if even that.
If we had proposed purchasable feather items with artefact /uses you would have seen the exact same despite also here nothing really changing as the really oppressive stuff would have been omitted, same for CLs where at most the disease would be questionable but you'd also get the same response to MLs where the argument that nothing really changes wouldn't hold in the face of zephyr, speedwarp, bodyguard and banelord and leaving those out wouldn't really be an option as those are the reason to implement them in the first place. It also would be the same response for alternative baseline nukes but it would also be true that this actually would change something in that it would open up some new setups (which would be the entire point).
Are you actually comparing a fricking bleed style change to allowing un-restricted access to RR5 abilites across the board? And you think this will be a minor change?
I'm honestly lost for words.
Ikr... Giving all hard casters a 215 percent speed boost isn't even in the same realm as bleeds rofl.. false equivalency for 500 Alex.
However, necro and possibly the eld rr5 (or to be more specific the classes that would no longer get access to it) will force us to make something else anyways.
Druid Rank5 on Friar needs to be on top of your list.
Friars with Silence instead of stun is a no brainer that this will need adjustment, so why even start with it.
This is a cool idea. Fun to read about, interesting to think about, and ultimately, I'd simply request you abandon it.
Giving every class their own RR5 may be fine -- I love that classes are inherently asymmetrical in this game -- but the path you're going down is going to have obviously-correct choices and it's just going to come down to WoW-esque talent trees, where there is no actual choice, only the illusion of choice.
Please simply move your efforts onto your better ideas. Or give every class their RR5 and move on.
My question towards the RR5's is this: Where is the entwining snakes (hunter rr5) and the desperate bowman (ranger rr5)? With remedy not being an option, there isn't much to choose from for stealthers from the RR5 list. I would rather have an escape tool rather than the nearsight cure.
My question towards the RR5's is this: Where is the entwining snakes (hunter rr5) and the desperate bowman (ranger rr5)? With remedy not being an option, there isn't much to choose from for stealthers from the RR5 list. I would rather have an escape tool rather than the nearsight cure.
It’s more than just a cure
It can be then used(or initially if wanted) to ns enemies
This will be huge against caster interrupts
If you're going to mirror the pool of RR5's you could debuff cross-class RR5 vs using their class's original RR5 at full delve to make some variety in what people pick
Or keep certain RR5 available to only 1 realm, 2 realms, or the other
Supporter Classes: Shaman, Warden, Friar, Cleric, Druid, Healer, Bard Stun procc when hit (Cleric RR5) Melee nerf. Does not impact casted damage 5sec convert all damage to heal, self silence (Druid RR5) Neutral Selfrezz (Healer RR5) Neutral Removed: 15% group HP, MP & endu hot (Shaman RR5) Balance impact total: 1 melee nerf, 2 neutral
Caster Classes: Eld, Menta, Runemaster, Wizard, Sorc, Theurg, Animist
10 sec 215% charge, will break on cast (Eld RR5) Melee nerf. Impacts melee damage far more than casted damage. 90% advanced evade (RM RR5) Melee nerf. Does not impact casted damage Wall of Flame (Wizard RR5) Neutral Balance impact total: 2 melee nerfs, 1 neutral
Pet Caster Classes: SM, BD, Cab, Ench, Necro
Pet release = group heal (SM RR5) Neutral pet 1 min CC immunity (Cab RR5) CC nerf. Does not impact casted / melee damage 2000 MHB on pet (Ench RR5) Melee nerf. Does not impact casted damage Balance impact total: 1 melee nerf, 1 CC nerf, 1 neutral
Hybrids Classes: Champ, Thane, VW, Reaver, Paladin, Skald, Minstrel Pbae 80% lifedrain (Reaver RR5) (replaced the champ RR5)Neutral Group magical and melee mhb 50%, double value on self (VW RR5) Melee nerf. Melee dps more heavily impacted over time than casted dps Groupheal depending on grp size (Paladin RR5) Neutral Removed: 20 sec dmg increased by enemy ABS (Champ RR5) Balance impact total: 1 melee nerf, 2 neutral
Full Tanks Classes: Warrior, Hero, Armsman
50% block and parry increase then 15% decrease (Arms RR5) Melee nerf. Does not impacted casted damge. PUNISHES USER. 100% evade and slowed (Hero RR5) Melee nerf. Does not impacted casted damge. PUNISHES USER. Testudo (Warrior RR5) Melee nerf. Melee dps effected at a greater rate than casted dps. PUNISHES USER. Balance impact total: 3 melee nerfs NOTE THAT ALL CHARACTERS ARE PUNISHED FOR USING THEIR ABILITY IN SOME WAY, AND THAT THIS IS THE ONLY GROUP THAT EVERY CHARACTER INCURS A PENALTY FOR USING THEIR ABILITY.
Light Tanks Classes: Berserker, Blademaster, Mercenary, Savage
25% melee absorb, 25% magic resists, 25% chance to lose CC (Zerk RR5) Melee nerf. Melee dps effected at a greater rate than casted dps due to dps coding. disarm, 90% parry chance, 25% less spell dmg (BM RR5) Neutral 15% more melee dmg, debuff & mezz purge, 100% immune to debuffs, takes 15% more dmg (Merc RR5) Melee nerf. PUNISHES USER. Balance impact total: 2 melee nerfs, 1 neutral NOTE THAT MERC ABILITY PUNISHES THE USER
Stealther Classes: Infi, NS, SB, Hunter, Ranger, Scout
15% bonus to hit (Infi RR5) Neutral 15 sec life leech attacks (SB RR5) Neutral Cure NS, 60 sec immunity, 20% range increase & 20 sec NS shots (Scout RR5)Caster nerf. Does not impact melee chars Removed: Remedy (Old NS RR5) Balance impact total: 2 neutral, 1 caster nerf
BALANCE IMPACT TOTALS FOR ALL PROPOSED CHANGES:
2 caster nerfs 10 Melee nerfs 9 Neutral changes
Note that EVERY heavy tank will be punished for using any of their proposed abilities, while 1 ability from the light tank group will punish the user. There are NO such penalties for ANY OTHER GROUPS.
TEN MELEE FOCUSED NERFS!??? REALLY? And yet there's only 2 focused solely on casted damage or the scourge of CC that exists in the game? You guys really need to reconsider this plan, as it's atrocious, and similar to the bias that exists on live....which is pretty much dead. People don't play on Phoenix because it's free, they play here because it's NOT THE dumpster fire of a game that exists on the live server.
You guys can't just use a blanket "X" amount damage reduction for both melee and casters because melee damage DECREASES over time, while casted damage NEVER CHANGES. So a 25% damage reduction has a far greater impact on the melee character due to the amount of time required to make up for that damage, and due to the fact that the longer the melee character swings, the LOWER the overall DPS.
Please reconsider this plan, and eliminate ALL the biased abilities in favor of the neutral abilities that impact ALL CHARACTERS the same.
You guys can do better than what they did on live. That's why we're here.
Very well put together post there IdiamVonGawaine.
In terms of balance light tanks had banelord and charge when these rr5 abilities are implemented on live. Without such features, implementing only rr5 abilities would tip the balance.
This will be the death of Phoenix. Nobody will play tank groups
It could even remove the need for a peeler. Half the casters get instant speed burst like Rangers & Hunters do and we all know how it can be used defensively (to keep range) or offensively (to warp back into range of one´s own abilities again). The other half of the casters gets to send CC immune pets on support (or the casters mentioned above) requiring a group to burst kill these pets quickly (which is best done in a group of assisting casters).
Pets shouldn´t be better (CC immune) at interrupting than a light tank in your face (if he ever gets that close due to speed burst). But somehow that´s where this is heading. When live had RR5 abilities, heavy tanks had bodyguard (making melee pets a non-issue to interrupt even if unCCable) and AoE attacks, light tanks had charge and banelord abilities for large area interrupts, snares and extra damage, all while fighting in speed warps. On live even these new RR5s (kinda like the old ones) were to help certain classes or realms with their weaknesses (Sorc and Eld often being the only CC/utility caster and first target so they got something to survive) or improve their theme/aspect. This is the very opposite, undeserved new I-win-buttons for everyone but stoicism tanks.
Every hybrid and Skald/Minstrel getting the PBAE lifetap will be the lolz too.
i like new things but after a little thought it can't really be balanced. no matter where you start ... necro with 2000 mhb? crazy caster blink? ... and on the other hand complete useless stuff and that without choice. if it is really wanted, give the classes their standard rr5 skills, choosing will only make it worse.
I would like to see simpler things changed or added.
what about champion lvl, revised, adapted? legendary weapons? more, different, simultaneous tasks? or most importantly, radical adaptation to rps for under and over pop
to get a better realm ratio?....
RR5 RAs are a horrible idea right now. There are so many balance problems right now and the rr5 ras won't change them but rather increase them. I don't like the idea of those ras. We don't need more Abilities with high timers and high impact. Its worse enough that you can't fight many classes without purge up cause you don't stand a chance.
I agree with the assessment that the cahnge would (again) favor casters but in the latest summaration, the merc-RA is categorized as meleenerf...
15% more melee dmg, debuff & mezz purge, 100% immune to debuffs, takes 15% more dmg (Merc RR5)
How is this ability a melee nerf in any way?
This being a melee nerf sadly takes away from the credibility of the whole argument, imo
Its a "meele nerf" (personally i would not go this far, but I understand the argument/rating) because it has a downside "PUNISHES USER" because of "takes 15% more dmg" while all the other abilities, not on tanks/light tanks, only have advantages for the user, while the meele abilities in many cases come hand in hand with disadvantages during/after the use.
Following this logic maybe
"Pet release = group heal (SM RR5) Neutral" should be not neutral but a bit of a caster nerf, as you are loosing your pet when using this ability.
I agree with the assessment that the cahnge would (again) favor casters but in the latest summaration, the merc-RA is categorized as meleenerf...
15% more melee dmg, debuff & mezz purge, 100% immune to debuffs, takes 15% more dmg (Merc RR5)
How is this ability a melee nerf in any way?
This being a melee nerf sadly takes away from the credibility of the whole argument, imo
Its a "meele nerf" (personally i would not go this far, but I understand the argument/rating) because it has a downside "PUNISHES USER" because of "takes 15% more dmg" while all the other abilities, not on tanks/light tanks, only have advantages for the user, while the meele abilities in many cases come hand in hand with disadvantages during/after the use.
Following this logic maybe
"Pet release = group heal (SM RR5) Neutral" should be not neutral but a bit of a caster nerf, as you are loosing your pet when using this ability.
a downside isn't a nerf, though...
if the upside is bigger and through the fact that melee DD can choose when to burn this it is just ridiculous calling (this one ability) a melee nerf
i agree on general that the RA's will further buff the meta-comps while leaving everything beneath at an even worse position
I like the idea of a reward for reaching RR5, but why must most of the RR5-Abilities be so strong at the beginning? You can integrate a lite version and increase them when some time passed. +90% evade is great, but +25% is good too, for 1 RA-Point.
I agree with the assessment that the cahnge would (again) favor casters but in the latest summaration, the merc-RA is categorized as meleenerf...
15% more melee dmg, debuff & mezz purge, 100% immune to debuffs, takes 15% more dmg (Merc RR5)
How is this ability a melee nerf in any way?
This being a melee nerf sadly takes away from the credibility of the whole argument, imo
It's in the nerf list because using the ability PUNISHES THE USER for daring to actually use the ability the devs gave them. This ability makes them 15% more susceptible to damage of all types, making these characters easier to kill by casted damage. Hence, it is yet another nerf to the melee chars of the game. NO OTHER GROUP is penalized for using their abilities, other than melee chars.
This is absolutely ridiculous, and poor decision making like this is exactly what lead to the creation of the Phoenix server in the first place. Fortunately the devs are NOT responsible for the creation of these ridiculous RA's, as they're just copying them from live. UNFORTUNATELY, the devs apparently can't see the negative impact these abilities had on the live server, or the negative impact they will have on Phoenix.
Perhaps posts that demonstrate the negative impact these changes will have will persuade them to readress the issue, eliminate the biased abilities, and create neutral abilities that impact all players the same. I have faith they will.
I like the idea of a reward for reaching RR5, but why must most of the RR5-Abilities be so strong at the beginning? You can integrate a lite version and increase them when some time passed. +90% evade is great, but +25% is good too, for 1 RA-Point.
I think reaching RR5 has its own rewards
Creating a larger skill/power gap to sub RR5 players is not needed and poor for the morale of those low rr players that feel neutered out there
It's in the nerf list because using the ability PUNISHES THE USER for daring to actually use the ability the devs gave them. This ability makes them 15% more susceptible to damage of all types, making these characters easier to kill by casted damage. Hence, it is yet another nerf to the melee chars of the game. NO OTHER GROUP is penalized for using their abilities, other than melee chars.
This is absolutely ridiculous, and poor decision making like this is exactly what lead to the creation of the Phoenix server in the first place. Fortunately the devs are NOT responsible for the creation of these ridiculous RA's, as they're just copying them from live. UNFORTUNATELY, the devs apparently can't see the negative impact these abilities had on the live server, or the negative impact they will have on Phoenix.
Perhaps posts that demonstrate the negative impact these changes will have will persuade them to readress the issue, eliminate the biased abilities, and create neutral abilities that impact all players the same. I have faith they will.
Thank you.
I believe you are overshooting the target there though, and it takes credibility away from the main point, that you explained well and i fully agree on though.
Just because there is a downside included, doesn't mean the ability is a nerf. That is just shortsighted and/or intentionally misrepresenting.
Worst case, the user never uses the ability and is never more susceptible to damage. How would that be a nerf?
It is unreasonable and allows the reader to believe that maybe all your other "ratings" of the abilities are biased too.
Worst case, the user never uses the ability and is never more susceptible to damage. How would that be a nerf?
In that case, it would be a nerf due to the fact that EVERY OTHER CLASS would have an extra ability they can use, while the melee light tank class would not, due to the penalty it imposes on them as the user.
Worst case, the user never uses the ability and is never more susceptible to damage. How would that be a nerf?
In that case, it would be a nerf due to the fact that EVERY OTHER CLASS would have an extra ability they can use, while the melee light tank class would not, due to the penalty it imposes on them as the user.
Thank you.
You already listed those abilities as melee nerfs though. And "not using" the ability is only the worst case.
I asked my savage yesterday to pay attention to a few first-targets on inc, and many many of them lived while going under 10% in the initial burst.
With the RR5 he would have gotten much more burst-kills on the opening of a fight.
We still don't want the RR5's as proposed, because we agree that it in general is a huge melee-nerf, but claiming the merc-RR5 is a nerf to whoever class gets it is plain wrong.
Why penality is a bad thing and would be a nerf? If you have a huge benefit that balances it, it's no big deal... You know, like the savage self buff damage !
I don't like the 5L RA system overall, but calling it a nerf when they are actually very strong abilities, it's dumb.
I asked my savage yesterday to pay attention to a few first-targets on inc, and many many of them lived while going under 10% in the initial burst.
With the RR5 he would have gotten much more burst-kills on the opening of a fight.
A Savage's ability to quad is at best 5% and when they do they do around a total of 700 damage.
You either need to check your Savage for hacks or you need to stop setting your Savage loose on a bunch of grays and make him play the lottery instead.
Currently unmentioned/unused RR5 that can(should) be in pool. (...and get rid of the obv. broken ones currently in.)
Whirling Staff – PBAE attack that does moderate damage and makes all melee targets in 350 radius unable to attack for 6 seconds. 6s duration, 10m re-use (Friar RR5)
Why is this not in?
Snapshot – Allows the crossbow to be drawn and fired whilst moving. 60s duration, 10m re-use. (Arms RR5)
Too class specific? Could be integrated into skill line tbh, even with lower cooldown. Or make it accessible as an ability to "throw the weapon" for Hero, Warr and Arms.
Calming Notes – Insta-mezzes enemy pets in a 750 radius. 30s duration, 5m re-use. (Minstrel RR5)
Why is this not in? Get rid of all the Pets. In fact, make it ignore immunity and non resistable.
Shield Trip – Throws shield at enemy, causing root, but scout cannot attack. 10s duration, 15m re-use. (Scout RR5)
Lower re-use to 10sec and change this into the 45-Shield style instead of the current one.
Fungral Union – Turns the animist into a mushroom for 60 seconds. Does not break on attack. Grants the animist a 10% chance of not spending power for each spell cast during the duration. 60s duration, 5m re-use. (Animist RR5)
Get rid of the polymorph aspect, adjust values, and it may be viable option.
Sonic Barrier – Increases ABS of group. 45s duration, 10m re-use. (Bansh RR5)
Adjusting values, and this could be in.
Searing Pet – Causes the pet to cast a PBAE DoT that ticks for 6 times for 25 points of damage per tick. 2m re-use. (Ench RR5)
underwhelming? adjusting values and it seems fine.
Tactics – Group buff to increase block/parry/evade by 10%. 30s duration, 10m re-use. (Hero RR5)
why is this not in? values?
Desperate Bowman – Bow style. Does 300 damage and a 5 second (non resistible) stun. Bow and melee cannot be used for 15 seconds afterwards. 15m re-use. (Ranger RR5)
Why is this not in? Adjust values + timers and it seems fine.
Fury of Nature – Double style damage. All damage done returns 100% to the group in spread heal form. (excluding the warden). 30s duration, 10m re-use. (Warden RR5)
Why is this not in?
Entwining Stakes – 50% snare in 350 units radius. 20s duration, 10m re-use. (Hunter RR5)
Adjust duration and re-use timers and this is fine.
Epiphany – 25% Group power refresh. Skald must be out of combat to use. (group members may be in combat. 10m re-use. (Skald RR5)
Seems fine tbh. why is this not in?
Valhalla’s Blessing – Spells and styles used by group have chance of not using endurance/power. 10m re-use. (Valk RR5)
Why is this not in?
I asked my savage yesterday to pay attention to a few first-targets on inc, and many many of them lived while going under 10% in the initial burst.
With the RR5 he would have gotten much more burst-kills on the opening of a fight.
A Savage's ability to quad is at best 5% and when they do they do around a total of 700 damage.
You either need to check your Savage for hacks or you need to stop setting your Savage loose on a bunch of grays and make him play the lottery instead.
what i wrote: "initial burst"
what you read: "first attack"
Being a smartass and wrong at the same time is pretty humiliating isn't it?
If most melee abilities have a penalty then so should casters.
Something like - Eld rr5 has a penalty like MoC 5. The effectiveness of spells will be reduced to 75% for 30seconds
Because NO OTHER CLASSES INCUR A PENALTY FOR USING THEIR ABILITY.
That is NOT acceptable, necessary, or beneficial to game balance or game play, in any way.
The Phoenix team can do better.
Because the other class don't get something as powerfull...
15% dmg boost is HUGE
Please don't speak about balance when you clearly have no idea how risk/reward works.
Because the other class don't get something as powerfull...
15% dmg boost is HUGE
Please don't speak about balance when you clearly have no idea how risk/reward works.
I think a 215% speed charge for 10 seconds is pretty huge for casters. Start at 1500 range, melee gets in melee range, charge away and reset with them at half life or so. Chances are their charge DD item is on cooldown and purge is blown.
NGL. I think this is unnecessary. Part of what phoenix does better than live is it's a more offensive version of the game. Live is a mess with all the escape tools and fight extenders. The longer fights go, the window grows to get adds. The harder it is to kill people, the harder it is to encourage newbies to keep playing the game. I see no issue with some of the offensive r5s, but the escape tools and the heals/absorbs are gonna be net negative imo.
Wtb sub to classic server with qol... and I hate paying for subs. Lets just take a moment to pour out our 40's for how cool this server was on launch when it was actually a classic server with qol and took the bad taste of Uthgard out of our mouths. What happened seriously
Because NO OTHER CLASSES INCUR A PENALTY FOR USING THEIR ABILITY.
That is NOT acceptable, necessary, or beneficial to game balance or game play, in any way.
The Phoenix team can do better.
Fulltanks do (ALL off their choices)
healers do (self silence...pretty huge debuff on healers)
petclasses do (releasing pet is huge, especially on BD)
stealthers/caster/hybrids do not have an ability that inclues a punishment
So currently 50% of the categories have a punishment-ability available
You are ofcourse free to your opinion, but that doesn't make it facts. And i believe that hardstance makes your whole assessment unreasonable because it shows bias against abilities that include downsides. According to your hardstance an ability that does 5000unresistable dmg in a 3000range PBAOE without dropoff would be a bad ability if it also decreased your dex by 5 for 20seconds afterwards.
And one thing to think about, a downside can actually be VERY beneficial to gameplay because it makes decisions harder. You can't just spam all your buttons and worst case is you "wasted" an ability. The downside means you have to actually think about when to use it instead of just using it on cooldown because there is no downside.
If MoC had no damage reduction Casters could brainlessly use it, currently they think twice, because it gimps their dmg for the whole duration even if noone keeps trying to interrupt them.
i am fine to agree to disagree on the general stance that a downside does not mean the ability is automatically a nerf.
It does seem wierd you believe a 5000dmg Instagib-PBAOE would be a nerf if it slightly debuffed the classes stats, but at least you are civil while digging in your heels, and after all it really is just an opinion in the end.
What i need to stress though, the last reasoning you gave was factually incorrect. It wasn't a conflict of contradicting opinions.
Because NO OTHER CLASSES INCUR A PENALTY FOR USING THEIR ABILITY.
This statement is just flat out wrong. That's not an opinion, and the proof has already been delivered.
Feel free to take being proven wrong as the moment to abort the discussion, and have fun riding the lie of the moral high horse all the way back to home.
Wierdly i had higher expectations, slightly dissapointed after the good start. I thought you were actually intrested in a discussion and reflecting about arguments.
Guess i got blinded by your good manners
i am fine to agree to disagree on the general stance that a downside does not mean the ability is automatically a nerf.
It does seem wierd you believe a 5000dmg Instagib-PBAOE would be a nerf if it slightly debuffed the classes stats, but at least you are civil while digging in your heels, and after all it really is just an opinion in the end.
What i need to stress though, the last reasoning you gave was factually incorrect. It wasn't a conflict of contradicting opinions.
Because NO OTHER CLASSES INCUR A PENALTY FOR USING THEIR ABILITY.
This statement is just flat out wrong. That's not an opinion, and the proof has already been delivered.
Feel free to take being proven wrong as the moment to abort the discussion, and have fun riding the lie of the moral high horse all the way back to home.
Wierdly i had higher expectations, slightly dissapointed after the good start. I thought you were actually intrested in a discussion and reflecting about arguments.
Guess i got blinded by your good manners
Have a nice day
Why is the healer ability a penalty if they are only going to use it when being attacked? Not like they can cast in that situation anyway so the self silence isn't much of an issue.
How often is a pet class going to pick the group heal ability? And even then, I think it would be a pretty niche ability with very few effective uses. So not really a penalty.
Merc does suffer a penalty.
So, if anything, that's two other classes with a penalty (that can pick other abilities that don't have a penalty), while full tanks are the only group with penalties to all of their choices.
Another ground for disappointment for new-comers and low RRs, trying to have fun in RVR.
Dont want RR5, but if they come, I would prefer a class specific and unique change. And not an existing one from life server - some of them are totally OP and other part is completely useless.
i am fine to agree to disagree on the general stance that a downside does not mean the ability is automatically a nerf.
It does seem wierd you believe a 5000dmg Instagib-PBAOE would be a nerf if it slightly debuffed the classes stats, but at least you are civil while digging in your heels, and after all it really is just an opinion in the end.
What i need to stress though, the last reasoning you gave was factually incorrect. It wasn't a conflict of contradicting opinions.
Because NO OTHER CLASSES INCUR A PENALTY FOR USING THEIR ABILITY.
This statement is just flat out wrong. That's not an opinion, and the proof has already been delivered.
Feel free to take being proven wrong as the moment to abort the discussion, and have fun riding the lie of the moral high horse all the way back to home.
Wierdly i had higher expectations, slightly dissapointed after the good start. I thought you were actually intrested in a discussion and reflecting about arguments.
Guess i got blinded by your good manners
Have a nice day
Why is the healer ability a penalty if they are only going to use it when being attacked? Not like they can cast in that situation anyway so the self silence isn't much of an issue.
How often is a pet class going to pick the group heal ability? And even then, I think it would be a pretty niche ability with very few effective uses. So not really a penalty.
Merc does suffer a penalty.
So, if anything, that's two other classes with a penalty (that can pick other abilities that don't have a penalty), while full tanks are the only group with penalties to all of their choices.
please, read the full context of the bullshitting arguments Idiam posted. He might seem like a levelheaded dude, but in his reply to your comment you can see he is just as butthurt about someone disagreeing and proving him wrong as most random forumers. (yes me included )
He said the mercenary ability is a nerf to the class, so according to that logic the same argument you apply to dismiss the downside of the petclass ability should also be used for the merc ability. If it is a nerf to the class then "how often is a lighttank going to pick the merc RA"?
If your answer agrees with mine (aka tons of lighttanks will pick it) then that probably hints at the fact that the merc-RR5 isn't a nerf for lighttanks at all.
Same applies to the healer-RA. You say that the downside (being silenced) doesn't matter, because the positive effect offsets the negative. And i completely agreee on that.
When i listed the ability, i was talking to Idiam, in the context of his claim "every ability that includes a downside is a nerf".
Just like a healer using the ability while he is being attacked, and therefor the silence not being a huge problem (outside of MOC-situations btw.) a lighttank will not use his burst when he is being debuff-nuked but in a situation where he is pushing and the fight is being controlled and he has a killwindow.
Just because an ability has a downside attached to it, doesn't mean the ability is a nerf.
Plenty of example exist and have been listed.
of course Idiam´s analaysis is obviously full of bullshit. i guess putting in some fancy colors is enough for people to agree with something or to selfagree on what you wrote yourself
please, read the full context of the bullshitting arguments Idiam posted. He might seem like a levelheaded dude, but in his reply to your comment you can see he is just as butthurt about someone disagreeing and proving him wrong as most random forumers. (yes me included )
He said the mercenary ability is a nerf to the class, so according to that logic the same argument you apply to dismiss the downside of the petclass ability should also be used for the merc ability. If it is a nerf to the class then "how often is a lighttank going to pick the merc RA"?
If your answer agrees with mine (aka tons of lighttanks will pick it) then that probably hints at the fact that the merc-RR5 isn't a nerf for lighttanks at all.
Same applies to the healer-RA. You say that the downside (being silenced) doesn't matter, because the positive effect offsets the negative. And i completely agreee on that.
When i listed the ability, i was talking to Idiam, in the context of his claim "every ability that includes a downside is a nerf".
Just like a healer using the ability while he is being attacked, and therefor the silence not being a huge problem (outside of MOC-situations btw.) a lighttank will not use his burst when he is being debuff-nuked but in a situation where he is pushing and the fight is being controlled and he has a killwindow.
Just because an ability has a downside attached to it, doesn't mean the ability is a nerf.
Plenty of example exist and have been listed.
Because NO OTHER CLASSES INCUR A PENALTY FOR USING THEIR ABILITY.
Why is it even questioned that this claim is wrong? Are we in Idiocracy?
I'd argue the merc ability has more use than just burst damage. It purges debuffs and mezz as well. So it would be used probably 90% of the time when it is up. The 10% being chasing a target, snared, rooted (is this a debuff?), or whatever else. If the player uses the merc ability to break a debuff/mez they are straight-up penalized while the healer ability would only be used to the overall benefit of the player.
I wouldn't go so far as to label them nerfs, but there is a pretty big difference between the benefits of the caster abilities versus, at least, the full tank abilities. Just look at RM ability: 90% advanced evade. While the Hero ability only gets 10% more evade (for 100%) and is slowed. I'm pretty sure players would rather have 90% evade with no downside than 100% and a slow.
I'm definitely of the mind that the Phoenix team can do better than this.
Upfront, this is just my view on it and probably a very individual one and I am not here to convince other players.
While I understand, that you want to further improve the server and provide change to keep it entertaining, here is why I personally only partially share that view.
Would be great to have an official in-game vote on it. Happy to accept the majorities opinion.
Short: Introduction of RR5 abilities will significantly reduce the classic feeling for me. It’s another important skillset, which needs to be played through. It’s not the complexity, which I don’t like, it’s the implementation of additional powerful abilities (I also would not enjoy artifact/ML abilities) – just not my classic feeling
Details: Personally, I only play caster and healer. I intentionally stayed away from MOC+LT (quite boring high rr) casters, SM, BD, because those allow for a deviation from the classical first-CC-then-attack process. My fun is trying to prepare the enemy with CC (even with mezz+root, there is purge and 10% resist per spell). This means if attacked by an RR2 SB, I can mezz, gets purged, I root and then it depends on the class how much effect the root has. If the SB resist the root (after I used concentration), I will die – NS would start to cast etc. And I like it that way, Caster should struggle against Assassins. If my caster now gets an escape-tool, the whole CCing gets postponed (after attacker’s RR5 maybe) and the CC game diluted, because I could eg sprint away with RR5.
Important for me is the fun, not being on top of the food chain.
Again, not here to convince, even if I am happy to discuss the background of my view. Want to provide my view and would appreciate an ig-vote.
I'd argue the merc ability has more use than just burst damage. It purges debuffs and mezz as well. So it would be used probably 90% of the time when it is up. The 10% being chasing a target, snared, rooted (is this a debuff?), or whatever else. If the player uses the merc ability to break a debuff/mez they are straight-up penalized while the healer ability would only be used to the overall benefit of the player.
I wouldn't go so far as to label them nerfs, but there is a pretty big difference between the benefits of the caster abilities versus, at least, the full tank abilities. Just look at RM ability: 90% advanced evade. While the Hero ability only gets 10% more evade (for 100%) and is slowed. I'm pretty sure players would rather have 90% evade with no downside than 100% and a slow.
I'm definitely of the mind that the Phoenix team can do better than this.
I don't disagree with anything you said, but it really feels as if you have still not bothered to get into the context of the last chain of comments and therefor are misunderstanding what i say completely. Otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to write that reply.
I'd argue the merc ability has more use than just burst damage. It purges debuffs and mezz as well. So it would be used probably 90% of the time when it is up. The 10% being chasing a target, snared, rooted (is this a debuff?), or whatever else. If the player uses the merc ability to break a debuff/mez they are straight-up penalized while the healer ability would only be used to the overall benefit of the player.
I wouldn't go so far as to label them nerfs, but there is a pretty big difference between the benefits of the caster abilities versus, at least, the full tank abilities. Just look at RM ability: 90% advanced evade. While the Hero ability only gets 10% more evade (for 100%) and is slowed. I'm pretty sure players would rather have 90% evade with no downside than 100% and a slow.
I'm definitely of the mind that the Phoenix team can do better than this.
I don't disagree with anything you said, but it really feels as if you have still not bothered to get into the context of the last chain of comments and therefor are misunderstanding what i say completely. Otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to write that reply.
well either that, or it's malice
You are absolutely right, I'm not getting into the context of your debate with that other guy. I guess maybe I'm just clarifying some points? I dunno, there's no malice though.
Please focus on things that are more important like the overall rvr experience, state of relics , keepfights and realmpride and stop implementing things like rr5 abilities and buffshears noone needs and asks for just to offer something "new". Fix the old stuff first! Plz! Or just take a look at the bugtracker. Enough to let off steam.
You are absolutely right, I'm not getting into the context of your debate with that other guy. I guess maybe I'm just clarifying some points? I dunno, there's no malice though.
Then please, don't quote me on singular points that you take out of context.
It just derails the discussion and misrepresents my opinion
So has it been decided that this is no longer going to happen?
According to gruenesschaf, this was supposed to have been implemented already.
This is feeling like the style review...
Eh based on the 27 pages of most people expressing their displeasure and negative impact this would have on the server, I certainly hope they don't add them.
Postponed until after a couple other changes came and settled, the biggest one would be https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/12984-q2-2020-style-changes which now, due to the vote result, can move forward and will shake things up a bit.
Postponed until after a couple other changes came and settled, the biggest one would be https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/12984-q2-2020-style-changes which now, due to the vote result, can move forward and will shake things up a bit.
Using the term ‘shake things up a bit’ makes me nervous. Some style changes are needed, please take a subtle approach. Rather than the usual where guys go overboard with changes and leave huge balance issues, like the madness that was proposed in this initial post
Postponed until after a couple other changes came and settled, the biggest one would be https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/12984-q2-2020-style-changes which now, due to the vote result, can move forward and will shake things up a bit.
I think you guys have provided great work on this server and i'm sure we all appreciate it.
but i would like to warn you to be really carefull about those kind of use of a survey result.
Because :
"Do you think all weapon lines should be viable in most play styles?"
IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO
"Do you agree to the Style change that was proposed"
And when you put a question like :
"Do you prefer the original way physical damage variance works (a random bonus of 0% to 50%) or the current way (the average, always 25% bonus)?"
You should know that for ppl it meant "go back to the way it was before" aka with reverse change to the Crits RA.
Because that kind of behaviour can make people feel that you're kind of coning them and i'm not sure it's a good thing to maintain server population.
Because :
"Do you think all weapon lines should be viable in most play styles?"
IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO
"Do you agree to the Style change that was proposed"
Don't worry, the result will take it much further than the proposal as what was proposed in that thread wouldn't event come close to achieve what was voted on.
Change is scary! No change! Must play same game as 19 years ago! So many changes already have ruined the game!
Why would you need to change things for the sake of change?
Do you need to change tenis rules for people to enjoy it?
What people ask is balance, that's all.
Balance = Everyone get the same spells, the same stats and same weapons, etc. It is not really that fun, the game it self is pretty balanced, not perfect, but not terrible, there is always a way to beat a group or a player and some 1v1 will always have someone more dominate than another, if it is not by class skills, it would be by player skills. Then we can have people complaining about RAs and realm rank, so lets get rid of that too and make RAs for cosmetic purposes only!
The only really change that would be fun is to see what they would do with the useless speclines.
How many enchantment chanters are there? Matter sorcs? A smite cleric? Summoning SM? Mentalism menty? I mean people only go 28 for the demezz, I am sure there are a few more, how about a pure melee scout/ranger/hunter? (I miss my melee ranger, was so much fun) I mean people do not even sub spec into a lot of speclines
Didn't say it was nerfed, did not make one here, had one on live, only thing i noticed was no PD here, but haven't made a stealther here. Just know I do not see any.
Most people aren't here to play a new game. They are here to enjoy an old game they love.
Adding new events using the core classes and mechanics is fun and I think the vast majority of the players enjoy doing new things with familiar classes.
Adding QoL improvements like /moveitem and /craftqueue make the same game easier and people like them.
People always complain about balance - thats part of DAOC from the beginning. Some people are drawn to the classes that appear underpowered for a reason. Completely revamping the styles just for the sake of change doesn't make a lot of sense to me. For example, trying to land the 3-part chain in LA to get the big bonus on Aurora Borealis is what makes the game fun.
I would humbly ask that you guys think of why people are here. To play a game we love - not to play a new game.
Because :
"Do you think all weapon lines should be viable in most play styles?"
IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO
"Do you agree to the Style change that was proposed"
Don't worry, the result will take it much further than the proposal as what was proposed in that thread wouldn't event come close to achieve what was voted on.
uff you make a survey with a suggestive question about melee styles and take this as a blank check?
At least some of the style changes make a little sense, the rr5s are pointless. They were a terrible idea years ago when live released them and it's an even worse idea here. Please, put this to a vote...
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