DAOC RvR Has No End Goal So Lets Make One

Let's be real here. There is no purpose to RvR in DAOC. Passing relics back and forth, climbing the leaderboard on the herald, etc.. These do not offer win conditions.

It gets stale and boring. DAOC servers just drag on and on and on where no realm ever wins in RvR. This is what Phoenix needs. A system with a winning realm.

We already have an RvR Score in place and keeps tracker, so why can't we have a system that declares one realm the victor after a certain period of time?

What if every month the realm with the highest RvR score or keeps taken or etc.. has a chance to conqueror the other realms and claim victory.

This is where a realm invasion event comes in. The leading realm at the end of the month has the opportunity to invade an enemy realm and kill task there. Either they attack and win or the defenders repel the invasion.

Imagine if for one day Midgard opened a portal into Camelot Hills and a kill task in that zone was waged over an entire day until either Midgard conquered the zone or Albion fended them off.

If the invader wins they would earn spoils, bragging rights, and a tally as a conqueror. These spoils could include realm wide cosmetics, titles, dyes, or even statues. This way realms unite and win on behalf of all.

Could you imagine Mids flooding into Camelot Hills? The defenders of Albion on a crusade to rid Camelot Hills of the insurgence as they charge across the Camelot drawbridge. That is realm pride. That is what we need.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 4:20 AM by Tree

Dude, you really got some weird notions on how to "improve" this game.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 4:22 AM by defiasbandit

Tree wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 4:20 AM
Dude, you really got some weird notions on how to "improve" this game.

I just don't want the playerbase to get burnt out from grinding RP 3 months in. DAOC is a realm v realm game with no winners. We need competition.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 4:25 AM by Cadebrennus

DAOC has always been about the fights and the quality of your opponents.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 9:12 AM by Takii

You literally suggested this like 5 threads down from this one a few days ago and got told in very clear terms by Uthred that it will never happen.

Not that the game needs it anyway. You're obsessed with making major changes to a server whose entire reason for existence is providing people with a version of the game before major changes were made to it. I'm not sure you're at the right place.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 5:03 PM by defiasbandit

Takii wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 9:12 AM
You literally suggested this like 5 threads down from this one a few days ago and got told in very clear terms by Uthred that it will never happen.

Not that the game needs it anyway. You're obsessed with making major changes to a server whose entire reason for existence is providing people with a version of the game before major changes were made to it. I'm not sure you're at the right place.

The Shrouded Isles expansion lasted less than a year.What makes you think the Phoenix population will stay strong that far after launch? Stuck in 1.65 forever? No resets, new content, etc...

It's so obvious. You gotta mix it up and keep it fresh.

Adding win conditions to RvR helps this. It's pointless in its current iteration.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 6:09 PM by relvinian

I think the devs here have demonstrated some ability to think outside the box and hit a moving target.

Let's get the bugs fixed and class abilities solid. Then work on class and realm balance, imo.

After launch, if people get bored later then you can put in some suggestions. I think its kind of a fun idea, myself.

I would also like a "purge" event, where you can attack your own realm mates. I think lots of people would try and kill me.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 9:32 PM by Magesty

When I first read this post I rolled my eyes harder than a valley girl in the '90s.

Personally, I have fun just playing this game. I like leveling up my various dudes, I like putting together a template and thinking about how fun it will be to play the character at full strength, I enjoy finally getting them out to RvR and acquiring ranks. That is enough for me, or at least it has been thus far. A lot of what makes DAoC great is the fact that you can build experience, wealth and power. You are always progressing and almost always getting some sort of reward feedback while playing. Why would you need an end goal? The game in and of itself is fun.

Then I started really thinking about it (unusual for me) and I realized that there definitely is some merit to the general ideas being addressed in this thread and similar ones I've been seeing crop up lately. I think if the goal is to maintain a consistent population on the server then you have to shake things up occasionally. If you play modern games then you know that they often have meta shakeups as new content is released. This generally makes the game more interesting for players that are currently playing and can even bring disillusioned or disinterested players back into the fold as they feel like a game play element has been balanced or there is something new to explore. Yes, it does piss some players off, but if you've had any experience dealing with large groups of people you know that even at the best of times someone will always be disproportionately pissed about even the tiniest of issue.

The rate of leveling here is such that it is almost completely trivial. 1-40 is just a matter of either having a good route to abuse the kill tasks or finding a group of semi competent players. 40-50 can be done in one day if you have even the slightest idea about XP items. The economy is egregiously inflated while the hard costs of crafting have remained the same. RPs fall from RP trees all across the frontier zones. This is to say that making occasional game play changes don't have the sweeping effects on what players perceive as their time investment as they have on other shards and on live, and even if you slowed down leveling I still doubt it would have much of an effect.

Do you do occasional server wipes? I don't think that is the answer. Progressing and gaining wealth is one of the best things about DAoC, and I certainly would feel pretty crappy if I knew it was just going to get wiped. This isn't League of Legends where climbing the ladder is satisfying in and of itself. In DAoC it is more about hanging around on the ladder and yelling at people who pass underneath it.

Do you allow a realm invasion event? Ehhh... Maybe? I initially thought that this would be one of the most miserable things possible, but upon seeing how much of a joke the PvE process is shaping up to be it really isn't that important that Joe Casual have his one uninterrupted day of monster killing action when he finally finds a break from wife/kids/work/whatever. He will be fifty in a month just like everyone else even if he has to spend a day getting his shit pushed in by some NEET Nightshade. Still, probably not the best solution.

I think a couple things would help server longevity and spruce up the future a little bit:

1) Class and spec reworks-- Paladins, Nature Druids, Matter Sorcs, Enchantment Enchanters, Summoning Spiritmasters... All of these classes and specs (along with many others) could use adjustment. It can be done tastefully and without homogenization, effectively opening up 40% of the class trees that just aren't used.

2) Consistent balance tweaking-- This would naturally tie in with the above. DAoC is not a very well balanced game, but there are a lot of numbers that can be adjusted. It would be nice to see granular changes being made throughout the life of the server to bring things into line as needed.

3) Eventual release of Bainshee, Heretic, Valkyrie-- Three whole already made classes that can exist in harmony with the SI set. It would be a breath of fresh air to see them released (with appropriate tweaks) In 6-18 months when the server population is steadily declining.

4a) Re-working and re-itemizing of existing zones-- There are a ton of existing dungeons and epic zones (especially in SI) that see no use. They are awkward and pointless. The Devs have already shown a lot of skill when it comes to reworking the PvE space, and improving the unused zones could be a big boon to the overall server.

4b) Decrease in XP awarded across the board-- I get that a lot of players like being able to get to 50 in a week. RvR is what the game is all about and it is far and away the main draw. The downside is it really is only a small portion of the original game design. The way leveling currently works significantly eliminates the usefulness of the PvE zones and the leveling experience as design space for the devs to improve the server and increase the interest and time investment of players.

The one thing I think is important to avoid is adding brand new zones.

In summation, I'm not sure a forced "endgame" is really what is needed for Phoenix, although depending on how tastefully it is done it might not hurt. It would, however, be nice to see a small refresh of the meta and inclusion of new things from time to time. Otherwise the game will inevitably get stale and the server will die off.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 10:27 PM by Woodspryte

Magesty wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 9:32 PM
2) Consistent balance tweaking-- This would naturally tie in with the above. DAoC is not a very well balanced game, but there are a lot of numbers that can be adjusted. It would be nice to see granular changes being made throughout the life of the server to bring things into line as needed.

To me this will be a major necessity. As it is now everyone looks at Class X and already decided it was either viable or not. There needs to be meta shifts, there needs to be the feeling that the class you love to play can get love and become better.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 10:28 PM by defiasbandit

Magesty wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 9:32 PM
When I first read this post I rolled my eyes harder than a valley girl in the '90s.

Personally, I have fun just playing this game. I like leveling up my various dudes, I like putting together a template and thinking about how fun it will be to play the character at full strength, I enjoy finally getting them out to RvR and acquiring ranks. That is enough for me, or at least it has been thus far. A lot of what makes DAoC great is the fact that you can build experience, wealth and power. You are always progressing and almost always getting some sort of reward feedback while playing. Why would you need an end goal? The game in and of itself is fun.

Then I started really thinking about it (unusual for me) and I realized that there definitely is some merit to the general ideas being addressed in this thread and similar ones I've been seeing crop up lately. I think if the goal is to maintain a consistent population on the server then you have to shake things up occasionally. If you play modern games then you know that they often have meta shakeups as new content is released. This generally makes the game more interesting for players that are currently playing and can even bring disillusioned or disinterested players back into the fold as they feel like a game play element has been balanced or there is something new to explore. Yes, it does piss some players off, but if you've had any experience dealing with large groups of people you know that even at the best of times someone will always be disproportionately pissed about even the tiniest of issue.

The rate of leveling here is such that it is almost completely trivial. 1-40 is just a matter of either having a good route to abuse the kill tasks or finding a group of semi competent players. 40-50 can be done in one day if you have even the slightest idea about XP items. The economy is egregiously inflated while the hard costs of crafting have remained the same. RPs fall from RP trees all across the frontier zones. This is to say that making occasional game play changes don't have the sweeping effects on what players perceive as their time investment as they have on other shards and on live, and even if you slowed down leveling I still doubt it would have much of an effect.

Do you do occasional server wipes? I don't think that is the answer. Progressing and gaining wealth is one of the best things about DAoC, and I certainly would feel pretty crappy if I knew it was just going to get wiped. This isn't League of Legends where climbing the ladder is satisfying in and of itself. In DAoC it is more about hanging around on the ladder and yelling at people who pass underneath it.

Do you allow a realm invasion event? Ehhh... Maybe? I initially thought that this would be one of the most miserable things possible, but upon seeing how much of a joke the PvE process is shaping up to be it really isn't that important that Joe Casual have his one uninterrupted day of monster killing action when he finally finds a break from wife/kids/work/whatever. He will be fifty in a month just like everyone else even if he has to spend a day getting his shit pushed in by some NEET Nightshade. Still, probably not the best solution.

I think a couple things would help server longevity and spruce up the future a little bit:

1) Class and spec reworks-- Paladins, Nature Druids, Matter Sorcs, Enchantment Enchanters, Summoning Spiritmasters... All of these classes and specs (along with many others) could use adjustment. It can be done tastefully and without homogenization, effectively opening up 40% of the class trees that just aren't used.

2) Consistent balance tweaking-- This would naturally tie in with the above. DAoC is not a very well balanced game, but there are a lot of numbers that can be adjusted. It would be nice to see granular changes being made throughout the life of the server to bring things into line as needed.

3) Eventual release of Bainshee, Heretic, Valkyrie-- Three whole already made classes that can exist in harmony with the SI set. It would be a breath of fresh air to see them released (with appropriate tweaks) In 6-18 months when the server population is steadily declining.

4a) Re-working and re-itemizing of existing zones-- There are a ton of existing dungeons and epic zones (especially in SI) that see no use. They are awkward and pointless. The Devs have already shown a lot of skill when it comes to reworking the PvE space, and improving the unused zones could be a big boon to the overall server.

4b) Decrease in XP awarded across the board-- I get that a lot of players like being able to get to 50 in a week. RvR is what the game is all about and it is far and away the main draw. The downside is it really is only a small portion of the original game design. The way leveling currently works significantly eliminates the usefulness of the PvE zones and the leveling experience as design space for the devs to improve the server and increase the interest and time investment of players.

The one thing I think is important to avoid is adding brand new zones.

In summation, I'm not sure a forced "endgame" is really what is needed for Phoenix, although depending on how tastefully it is done it might not hurt. It would, however, be nice to see a small refresh of the meta and inclusion of new things from time to time. Otherwise the game will inevitably get stale and the server will die off.

It is encouraging that somebody else sees the need for a more competitive/goal oriented end game on the server.

However, making leveling take longer is not something that should happen. Players are here to RvR and run level 50 dungeons, not grind mobs in Lough Derg.

Retooling and rebalancing classes can be important, but doubtful thats enough to retain population. Adding classes that didn't exist during SI is not preferable.

Players want competition and new content. There are creative ways to do that on a private server without relying on explansion packs like Mythic did.

Sure the server will be bustling the first two months or so, but you have to tweak the system in order to keep players returning and engaged. There needs to be a beginning. middle, and end to aspects of the server or else it just goes on and on ad infinitum.

You have to be very meticiulous in terms of rebalancing or changing the classes in this game.

The classes are designed for specific roles. Just because most players might deem a class weak does not mean they can't achieve a lot. There are few classes on this server that are truly underpowered. Paladin being one for example. Last thing you want to do is homogenize classes in DAOC. It will ruin the game.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 11:41 PM by florin

Some very good points all around. Yes the goal I see is to retain as many players by reducing the barriers where it makes sense and increasing the engagement once those barriers are passed. Am not in favor or restarts or wipes. We have seen how morale busting it is even in beta. So much that I would rather delete my characters on my own terms then have them wiped.

What I’m looking for is a sense of completion that triggers a desire to go at it again. Keeping taking and tasks will eventually get old. Relic taking will get old. I’m happyily impressed by the team in taking suggestions.

PVE revamps is also one I recommended.
Feathers in DF - good move, epic mobs in old zones will also get feathers - good move again
Changing the tasks to be more campaign like - great feedback defiasbandit
Class balances - as much as it pains me - minstrels are more inline. But others need lots of help to be viable - paladin etc.
I personally would love to see a good mix of healthy rvr and high level pve. But it may require tweaking epic dungeons to be doable by 2-3fg in less than 5 hours.

What’s concerning me is with the current pve and task items. It can lead to instance like game play where instead of a community you have people soloing items to 50. I’d rather have more xp and group. But ya some classes don’t group well. I think xp items being tradeable hurts the sense of comraderie since I can solo farm 50 of each with my necro and take my inf from 42-50 in 20 minutes of turn ins.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 5:54 PM by Brokenstring

Didn't Warhammer Online try something similar to what the OP has described with campaigns and taking over contested areas? I thought it was a good idea myself on paper, but the execution was lacking. It took too long and was too complicated I felt.

Dark Age of Camelot has two built in aspects to the OF that would lend itself to campaign style takeovers. Forts and relics. It's already there. What the devs would need to do is if a realm takes over all forts of another realm, then something happens. Something bad to that realm, beyond just losing DF. If a realm takes all of the relics and holds them for so long, something bad needs to happen to the other two realms.

This could work like a campaign that the OP is talking about that has a 'winning feeling' for the realm that accomplishes the above two scenarios. More scenarios could be thought of, and the 'winning' and what happens could be debated.