Problem with GvG deductions. - Phoenix Freeshard

I want to run a scenario by you: you peek out of a keep, see an unsuspecting enemy, throw out a stun and start nuking. In the distance you see an enemy group approaching so you turn around and bolt back to your keep.
A minute later you get 40 rps - the group that was incoming killed the guy you had initially nuked.

I think everyone has had this happen at one point or another, and you are aware of the mechanic. You get credit for an rvr kill a significant time after the initial damage took place.

My guild is pretty new to he GvG list, and while we are on it - we always circle and try and delay starting fights until we cross reference the names with those on the list.
GvG fights take place in open RvR - it's an extremely common scenario that we will see an enemy group finishing off a solo or a small man. The etiquette is that you kind of stand there and wait until they are ready to fight.
Most of the times, the fight starts immediately.

In this circumstance, if kills happened within the first few minutes of the GvG fight, the small man who applied damage to GvG group before the clean fight started would get credit for kills and show up on the kill logs.
This is an extremely common occurrence and unless changes to the rules of the GvG list to include a 5 minute cool down between the last RvR credited kill to the start of the next GvG fight - false positives can't be avoided.

We should have a discussion surrounding the mechanics for log detection on GvG kills, and ways we can change the rules so these false positives don't happen.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 8:26 PM by Helwyr

Caravellex wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 8:11 PM
[...]
GvG fights take place in open RvR - it's an extremely common scenario that we will see an enemy group finishing off a solo or a small man. The etiquette is that you kind of stand there and wait until they are ready to fight.
[...]

Yup, this is why many of us consider GvG /8man to be poison to the larger DAoC RvR game. Kind of like a floating mass of diarrhea coalescing around a pair of decaying dead rats in otherwise decent swimming pool.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 8:59 PM by Caravellex

Yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, but we don't really enjoy steamrolling small man's, and we'll sometimes leave solos to live.
I don't know that the toxic culture surrounding it is a result of the GvG list. That 8 man culture has been around for 20 years since the start of daoc.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 9:27 PM by Helwyr

Caravellex wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 8:59 PM
Yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, but we don't really enjoy steamrolling small man's, and we'll sometimes leave solos to live.
I don't know that the toxic culture surrounding it is a result of the GvG list. That 8 man culture has been around for 20 years since the start of daoc.

It's not the steamrolling of small mans or solos, it's the standing there doing nothing when an enemy realm group does it to your realm mates, and call that etiquette. It's that "etiquette" that runs counter to the spirit of Realm vs Realm, which is what DAoC is supposed to be all about. In an open game like DAoC uneven fights is going to be the norm, not the exception. The problem is 8mans and solo duelists have no loyalty to nor little investment in their chosen realm, their playstyle clique is always put above the realm in which their characters reside. I don't recall the 8man culture being there in DAoC from the beginning, although it may have been close to the start on a certain server or two, Lancelot comes to mind. But that's neither here nor there, it's culture that doesn't fit with the core game and has been damaging from its onset whenever that may have been.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:32 PM by Caravellex

We may have videos of the fights and proof that certain fights that we are being deducted for were clean.
We are going through the tapes.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:33 PM by shintacki

In my opinion "realm pride" is a stupid way to play. I hate zerging and couldnt care less if my realm loses 3 relics in a night when Im roaming. People have different preferences in how they play. 8mans prefer to live in their 8man bubble and thats fine. Zergers are always going to zerg and there always has been and always will be plenty of zergers so dont you worry about that.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:36 PM by Xenosapien

Everyone just stop using it. They want to be unreasonable, then fair enough.

You can develop 100 new commands and put 50 rules to go along with them, none of us are going to use them.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:38 PM by

gruenesschaf

While it might go contrary to the red is dead / realm war aspect, 8v8 groups have been part of daoc for the longest time and for many is the only meaningful playstyle and it's here to stay.
The problem imo is not the group that does nothing but the group that signals it is looking for fights and then runs over smaller groups, however, the justification here however is also reasonable and most likely true "they'd add our 8v8 otherwise".

This is a culture problem that is the result of a viscious cycle where basically all groups will always indiscriminately remove the smaller groups / solos because some smaller groups / solos actually did add to the 8v8 fights in the past and yet many of the smaller groups / solos only add to 8v8 fights because some 8v8 group rolled over them in the past.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:42 PM by

gruenesschaf

As for the actual topic / having evidence that show a violation did not occur, feel free to message uthred or me on discord.

As with every new system there is a pretty good chance for some issues in the gvg log flagging. For example after getting messages to review one case it turned out to indeed have been flagged in error due to the way the logs displayed certain circumstances, the flag has been removed and the root cause has been fixed and the remaining flags have been checked again but that was the only one affected by this issue.

A pretty big reason for publishing violations quite a while before the deduction would happen is by the way to give some time to appeal those flags. There are about 30 - 50 gvg fights per day with about 1 being in violation.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 11:43 PM by gotwqqd

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:38 PM
While it might go contrary to the red is dead / realm war aspect, 8v8 groups have been part of daoc for the longest time and for many is the only meaningful playstyle and it's here to stay.
The problem imo is not the group that does nothing but the group that signals it is looking for fights and then runs over smaller groups, however, the justification here however is also reasonable and most likely true "they'd add our 8v8 otherwise".

This is a culture problem that is the result of a viscious cycle where basically all groups will always indiscriminately remove the smaller groups / solos because some smaller groups / solos actually did add to the 8v8 fights in the past and yet many of the smaller groups / solos only add to 8v8 fights because some 8v8 group rolled over them in the past.

No issue with 8v8 wanting to have their play style .
But it crosses the line when they disengage enemies because a realm mate adds. Leaving them to die .

Hell if they at least CC the guy then all group leave the area it would be sort of forgivable

Fri 11 Sep 2020 12:28 AM by LolaEbola

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 11:43 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:38 PM
While it might go contrary to the red is dead / realm war aspect, 8v8 groups have been part of daoc for the longest time and for many is the only meaningful playstyle and it's here to stay.
The problem imo is not the group that does nothing but the group that signals it is looking for fights and then runs over smaller groups, however, the justification here however is also reasonable and most likely true "they'd add our 8v8 otherwise".

This is a culture problem that is the result of a viscious cycle where basically all groups will always indiscriminately remove the smaller groups / solos because some smaller groups / solos actually did add to the 8v8 fights in the past and yet many of the smaller groups / solos only add to 8v8 fights because some 8v8 group rolled over them in the past.

No issue with 8v8 wanting to have their play style .
But it crosses the line when they disengage enemies because a realm mate adds. Leaving them to die .

Hell if they at least CC the guy then all group leave the area it would be sort of forgivable

I agree. Pulling off and /cheering while your realm mates die just feels so wrong. Definitely feels like the type of thing that *should* be against the rules. Why are we even divided into realms? Might as well go Mordred style in the frontier then.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 2:47 AM by Helwyr

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:38 PM
While it might go contrary to the red is dead / realm war aspect, 8v8 groups have been part of daoc for the longest time and for many is the only meaningful playstyle and it's here to stay.
The problem imo is not the group that does nothing but the group that signals it is looking for fights and then runs over smaller groups, however, the justification here however is also reasonable and most likely true "they'd add our 8v8 otherwise".

This is a culture problem that is the result of a viscious cycle where basically all groups will always indiscriminately remove the smaller groups / solos because some smaller groups / solos actually did add to the 8v8 fights in the past and yet many of the smaller groups / solos only add to 8v8 fights because some 8v8 group rolled over them in the past.

Players using 3rd party cheats for the longest time and is here to stay as well, it doesn't mean it's a good idea to support that way of playing. The whole X vs X whether X = 8, 1, 4, or whatever is incredibly stupid in an open RvR game. If you wanted to build a game for that sort of play you would make instanced PvP arenas. The problem with DAoC is that its mechanics are built to heavily favor well made 8 man groups, so it's allowed the 8 vs 8 culture to flourish despite running counter to the core aspects of the RvR game. Even Mordred while more appropriate than standard DAoC RvR for this gameplay it's still not right since the only way to guarantee equal number fights is instanced PvP. Thus in the end you can never satisfy the X vs X types in a game like DAoC. Worse they poison the core RvR game, undermining realm unity by basically acting like a 4th realm living among the other 3 realms like a 5th column.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 3:09 AM by gotwqqd

I wish the player population was high enough where Phoenix could spinoff a server for 8v8 fortnite style
Drop 2 teams in a small sized zone

Fri 11 Sep 2020 5:51 AM by Ceen

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:42 PM
A pretty big reason for publishing violations quite a while before the deduction would happen is by the way to give some time to appeal those flags. There are about 30 - 50 gvg fights per day with about 1 being in violation.

Well if you give us the command for a trust based system - thanks for that though - there needs to be room for error.
Like if 5 % of the gvg calls are wrong that's totally normal phenomenon, not on purpose and just needs to be ignored if the gvg command is ment to be used.
You can't expect a 0 % error rate ever.
For now you better have 16 people recording the fight and before a claim everyone checks the videos for this lurikeen adding behind the tree.
This problem will become a bigger and bigger issue as you see in this thread already. Many zerglings will simple make it their goal to hand out 10k RP penalties.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 6:04 AM by inoeth

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 11:43 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:38 PM
While it might go contrary to the red is dead / realm war aspect, 8v8 groups have been part of daoc for the longest time and for many is the only meaningful playstyle and it's here to stay.
The problem imo is not the group that does nothing but the group that signals it is looking for fights and then runs over smaller groups, however, the justification here however is also reasonable and most likely true "they'd add our 8v8 otherwise".

This is a culture problem that is the result of a viscious cycle where basically all groups will always indiscriminately remove the smaller groups / solos because some smaller groups / solos actually did add to the 8v8 fights in the past and yet many of the smaller groups / solos only add to 8v8 fights because some 8v8 group rolled over them in the past.

No issue with 8v8 wanting to have their play style .
But it crosses the line when they disengage enemies because a realm mate adds. Leaving them to die .

Hell if they at least CC the guy then all group leave the area it would be sort of forgivable

no add no cry simple

Fri 11 Sep 2020 6:07 AM by inoeth

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 5:51 AM
Many zerglings will simple make it their goal to hand out 10k RP penalties.

and ppl call 8v8 community toxic, its the other way around!

Fri 11 Sep 2020 6:34 AM by Sepplord

toxic people are found in all playstyles
i agree with ceen though, even if i never play in 8's. If there is only 1 violation in 30-50fights it doesn't seem to be malicious but honest mistakes. Overall the system is then still giving out more RPs than it is taking away though.

It also depends if these are the new numbers (after punishment got introduced) and it was worse before?

And it might also indirectly push GvG groups into remote places where adds are more unlikely to happen, which is good imo

Fri 11 Sep 2020 9:45 AM by Kikicorky96

Why don't we keep things simple and stop that hypocrisy BS going on forever.

If people running gvg-command-8-man really want clean fights, no adds, no breaking of gvg rules, it just takes for them to go fight each other in a corner of the map, where there will be no one else but those consanguineous brothers having fun in their "8v8 culture" bubble.

And everyone would be happy :
-the /gvg 8 man playing their skillfully arena style somewhere safe.
- the small, potatoes and solo being able to finally enjoy a task zone by happily adding anything they find there, including stronger groups they usually can't beat.
- The real 8 man, ( those who can and have the will to handle anything and any numbers, till it's too much and then have the skill to just GTFO) so that they can play the 8 man style without any restrictions or rp removed, or complains from other 8 man for stupid reasons.

In my young days, I used to play the 8 man style on Agramon (I don't know if it was only our server or a more international common thing) it was definitely an arena with respected etiquette, the only difference is that we were not bothering anyone, and still enjoying the 8man gameplay (including the handling of those sneaky stealther adds).
Why wouldn't we aim at something like this on the server?

I am all for the 8 man, if I can, I always prefer that type of gameplay, and I know the feeling of a stupid add wasting a tense and close fight.
But on the other hand, realm pride or not, we have to all step back, take a deep breath, and realize how lame it is when a group from your own realm disengage an enemy group you tried to add (for example, because they already ruined 3 of your 1v1 previously, and you finally get a chance to get your revenge somehow) and watch you being killed (zerged, actually), then sit down around a camp fire with the enemy group recovering mana, hugging each other and then parting their ways.

Man, I find it so bad when, trying to add a fight, I have to watch my own realm mates as ennemies, and make sure they, as well as the other group, don't see me when I try leeching rps on their back.

I am all fine with etiquette and everything, like not killing greys, watching a 1v1 with your group without bothering, or not adding, disengaging etc. But only under the conditions there are no hypocrisy: if those gvg-8man would just fight each others and leave the easy rps alone, it would be totally fine.

But at the end of the day, they keep adding and zerging anything they can find for hours (except people on gvg list, obviously), but are asking others not to do the same. That's some crazy BS imo.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 11:18 AM by Kevan89

Exacty GvG 8mans MUST have their dedicated zone, as you avoid:
-8man elites drama from getting added;
-8man elites hypocrisy when they roflstomp solo/duo/Smallman (because they can zerg but you can't add 8vs8);
-Solo/Duo/Smallman free to roam in peace flags and engage/add whover they think appropriate too;
-Chill 8man free to do as per mentioned above;
-all the mentioned BS previously mentioned of Elites disengaging and letting realm mates die and emoting.

Because honestly none cares about you (Elites), so go to play your game somewhere else where we don't bother each other. So you don't cry and we either.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 12:56 PM by gotwqqd

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 6:04 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 11:43 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:38 PM
While it might go contrary to the red is dead / realm war aspect, 8v8 groups have been part of daoc for the longest time and for many is the only meaningful playstyle and it's here to stay.
The problem imo is not the group that does nothing but the group that signals it is looking for fights and then runs over smaller groups, however, the justification here however is also reasonable and most likely true "they'd add our 8v8 otherwise".

This is a culture problem that is the result of a viscious cycle where basically all groups will always indiscriminately remove the smaller groups / solos because some smaller groups / solos actually did add to the 8v8 fights in the past and yet many of the smaller groups / solos only add to 8v8 fights because some 8v8 group rolled over them in the past.

No issue with 8v8 wanting to have their play style .
But it crosses the line when they disengage enemies because a realm mate adds. Leaving them to die .

Hell if they at least CC the guy then all group leave the area it would be sort of forgivable

no add no cry simple

Too bad your thought process doesn’t go to any depth whatsoever.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:39 PM by Centenario

I think that 8v8 is great when it happens, its the best, when you are roaming as an 8-man and you can find and fight another 8-man.
Then you get added by the third realm and you die, its sad but its just regular RvR.

Now people want the butter and the money of the butter: the nice 8v8 fights without the cost of adders. Paradise right?

And the devs gave it in the form of gvg!

My guild doesnt do gvg because:
1) We don't play regular classes
2) We don't play regular hours
3) We don't play optimally
4) We play with family around and while doing chores etc...

So when we play casually could be in 8-mans too, in task zone and we encounter bad behavior, we just see bad behavior.

Personally I have a negative opinion of gvg people, I associate them to the 90% stereotypical "gamer" that are shunned IRL.

If we add a fight in RvR zone we don't necessarily know that they are doing a gvg, if we would we might not have added.
Would be nice to have a way to recognize gvg players, maybe they should all use bright green color.

If the gvg people who play this game competitively would stop to do gvg and just wreck casuals I think the situation would be even worse.

So its a double-edged sword and maybe the current situation doesnt cut as hard.

I have been playing on this server since March almost every week, and I couldn't tell you the name of 1 gvg guild lol
Maybe Error is the only guild I know because of Flump. Well I don't even know if they do gvg.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:46 PM by thirian24

This thread wasn't made to ask all of you non gvg people your ideas and opinions about gvg, why you hate it, why you add, why only YOUR playstyle is acceptable etc etc.

This thread was made to point out the possible and obvious flaws in the gvg reduction process. All of you turds that flock to every gvg/8man thread to cry, are just distracting from the original post. Go cry on one of the other threads where you're already whining.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 2:01 PM by LolaEbola

One of my biggest issues with this games community, what keeps me from playing more than a few months at a time without going on a little break from the computer, is this type of attitude.

It’s so common in these circles to take people’s criticisms and complaints and write it off as “crying”. Insulting others is just often the norm.

The fact is this game just doesn’t work if we’re not all having fun. So, when someone’s talking about things that are hurting the experience for them, and we say “lmao cry more”, that does a disservice to all of us.

It should be our goal to make every play style fun, and to listen to everyone’s criticisms with an open mind.

Please guys, I’m begging you. Just a little bit of positivity around here. Just try it! You might find you like it!

Fri 11 Sep 2020 2:16 PM by gotwqqd

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:46 PM
This thread wasn't made to ask all of you non gvg people your ideas and opinions about gvg, why you hate it, why you add, why only YOUR playstyle is acceptable etc etc.

This thread was made to point out the possible and obvious flaws in the gvg reduction process. All of you turds that flock to every gvg/8man thread to cry, are just distracting from the original post. Go cry on one of the other threads where you're already whining.

Are you clueless.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
You and your myopic brethren need to use your brains.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 2:17 PM by Centenario

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:46 PM
This thread wasn't made to ask all of you non gvg people your ideas and opinions about gvg, why you hate it, why you add, why only YOUR playstyle is acceptable etc etc.

This thread was made to point out the possible and obvious flaws in the gvg reduction process. All of you turds that flock to every gvg/8man thread to cry, are just distracting from the original post. Go cry on one of the other threads where you're already whining.

This guy lol, ignored! Damned can't ignore anymore, help! @GM

Fri 11 Sep 2020 3:44 PM by

Uthred

Please no insults, thx.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 4:03 PM by jonl

Remove /gvg
Remove EV from task
Enable port to EV for players in 8 man groups that aren't in battlegroups
Add some sort of bonus on EV to encourage fights

Fri 11 Sep 2020 6:14 PM by Salidry

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 5:51 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:42 PM
A pretty big reason for publishing violations quite a while before the deduction would happen is by the way to give some time to appeal those flags. There are about 30 - 50 gvg fights per day with about 1 being in violation.

Well if you give us the command for a trust based system - thanks for that though - there needs to be room for error.
Like if 5 % of the gvg calls are wrong that's totally normal phenomenon, not on purpose and just needs to be ignored if the gvg command is ment to be used.
You can't expect a 0 % error rate ever.
For now you better have 16 people recording the fight and before a claim everyone checks the videos for this lurikeen adding behind the tree.
This problem will become a bigger and bigger issue as you see in this thread already. Many zerglings will simple make it their goal to hand out 10k RP penalties.

Totally agree

Fri 11 Sep 2020 11:18 PM by Caravellex

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 5:51 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:42 PM
A pretty big reason for publishing violations quite a while before the deduction would happen is by the way to give some time to appeal those flags. There are about 30 - 50 gvg fights per day with about 1 being in violation.

Well if you give us the command for a trust based system - thanks for that though - there needs to be room for error.
Like if 5 % of the gvg calls are wrong that's totally normal phenomenon, not on purpose and just needs to be ignored if the gvg command is ment to be used.
You can't expect a 0 % error rate ever.
For now you better have 16 people recording the fight and before a claim everyone checks the videos for this lurikeen adding behind the tree.
This problem will become a bigger and bigger issue as you see in this thread already. Many zerglings will simple make it their goal to hand out 10k RP penalties.

I honestly hadn't even considered "user error" but you are completely right.
I can guarantee you 90% of these cases the GvG groups didn't realize there were adds. It's true it's the responsibility of the group, but the numbers mentioned by the GM were something like 1 in 50 fights being falsely claimed. That's not really showing malicious intent.
Might be more fair to make to make a warning that resets every 1-2 weeks and if you have repeated offenses within that timeframe there is a penalty.

I want to point out that multiple fights that were going to penalized were already cleared by video evidence and the penalties removed. That in itself shows that the system to detect abuse isn't functioning properly.

Tue 15 Sep 2020 12:15 AM by Parole

edited - because I realize I don't actually care about any of you.

Tue 15 Sep 2020 6:06 AM by Cadebrennus

jonl wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 4:03 PM
Remove /gvg
Remove EV from task
Enable port to EV for players in 8 man groups that aren't in battlegroups
Add some sort of bonus on EV to encourage fights

Simple.

Elegant.

Solution.

Probably will be ignored

Tue 15 Sep 2020 2:17 PM by Parole

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 6:06 AM
jonl wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 4:03 PM
Remove /gvg
Remove EV from task
Enable port to EV for players in 8 man groups that aren't in battlegroups
Add some sort of bonus on EV to encourage fights

Simple.

Elegant.

Solution.

Probably will be ignored

^^ hey GMs - DO THIS.