SB changes - Balance between melee stealthers

Is there any light at the end of the tunnel to see the SB changes that were mentioned several month ago in the forum? Had a longer break and that is the reason I didnt follow the upcoming plans/changes in that regard.

I personally can't stand fighting a NS anymore. There is 10% or 15% base diffrence in damage/defence due to the damage tables (SB being vulnerable to slash and NS is resistant to it). To all of that we have the situation right now with the relics BUT even without that situation it's really frustrating fighting against such a huge diffrence which lead me to my original question

Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:04 AM by Noashakra

15% dmg difference but you have more than 15% more hp... And not 100% of the NS dps comes from the weapons, because you know asn have poisons, so over all dps difference is much lower (because also you know you have 30 points more in str with the norse).
Git gut?

Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:52 AM by Jiraishin

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:04 AM
15% dmg difference but you have more than 15% more hp... And not 100% of the NS dps comes from the weapons, because you know asn have poisons, so over all dps difference is much lower (because also you know you have 30 points more in str with the norse).
Git gut?

This makes no sense since life is not worth as much as the defence diffrence due to desease poison. To all of that the question was directed to the team and not to a nobody trying to provocate with a stupid question in the end. You basically need to understand that in a melee stealther duell 15% more hitpoints won't compensate the damage/defence diffrence. Its like ablative or health proc. 150 ablative proc vs 100 health proc while you have desease poison on you.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 11:48 AM by caelio

Jiraishin wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:52 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:04 AM
15% dmg difference but you have more than 15% more hp... And not 100% of the NS dps comes from the weapons, because you know asn have poisons, so over all dps difference is much lower (because also you know you have 30 points more in str with the norse).
Git gut?

This makes no sense since life is not worth as much as the defence diffrence due to desease poison. To all of that the question was directed to the team and not to a nobody trying to provocate with a stupid question in the end. You basically need to understand that in a melee stealther duell 15% more hitpoints won't compensate the damage/defence diffrence. Its like ablative or health proc. 150 ablative proc vs 100 health proc while you have desease poison on you.

Dont waste your time with him. He's just a troll

Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:00 PM by Noashakra

Most of the DPS of the SB comes from triple dot.
You have a 15% disaventage because of the armor differences, but you have 30 points in str more to compensate, and which leads to better WS and damage (SB have 2% chances more to evade than my NS, despite having less dex and quick). And those 15% are just on the weapon damage, not the dots.
To make a compeling arguments, you would need to take EVERYTHING into account. The SB is balanced, the problem is that atm, there are maybe only 4/5 good ones playing (hambone, sheani, naas, and a few others).
Putting heal procs when 70% on your fights are under disease is your own problem. I have none. I play with add dmg proc/abla.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:09 PM by asnusia

what sb needs imho is a direct stun like custom 6s thrust infi stun or 4s blade ns stun.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:25 PM by Saroi

Not sure what changes you are asking about. If you mean the Q2 changes like Side or evade stun then Staff last mention was that they don't intend to do an overall style change and just break up 3 oder 4 part style chains into 2part. (Like Harmstring/Ripper or Snowsquall/Aurora Borealis).

So there won't be really any changes.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:03 PM by Cadebrennus

What should be done is to remove the evade stuns from Blades and Slash. I was very vocal in the beginning that changing the block stuns to evade stuns would lead to imbalance and whining, and here we are.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 3:27 PM by Noashakra

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:03 PM
What should be done is to remove the evade stuns from Blades and Slash. I was very vocal in the beginning that changing the block stuns to evade stuns would lead to imbalance and whining, and here we are.

Man I never use the evade stun on my NS... Please take it back and give us the 10% damage bonus back!

Sun 6 Sep 2020 4:40 PM by Cadebrennus

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 3:27 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:03 PM
What should be done is to remove the evade stuns from Blades and Slash. I was very vocal in the beginning that changing the block stuns to evade stuns would lead to imbalance and whining, and here we are.

Man I never use the evade stun on my NS... Please take it back and give us the 10% damage bonus back!

You mean 5% more? Sure, why not. However the fact that Alb and Hib Stealthers have a single style evade stun has been a whine magnet ever since it was implemented.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:22 PM by Delegator

SBs suffer disproportionately from the style growth rates on Phoenix, particularly PA, because their unique ability (2-handed weapons) just really doesn't matter on Phoenix. When archers do 2x the damage of PA (or same if the target has a bubble), and do so from range...well that's why my RR5 SB has been on the shelf for 9 months. NS and Scouts have their unique abilities that are either basically unaffected here (insta DD or shield with snare now added), but SB has only suffered.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:01 PM by Nephamael

Honestly SBs are the strongest assassins at low rank and on Phoenix they have one extreme advantage over NS and Inf.

That is a d/q debuff charge NS and Inf have no access to.

You open the fight with the debuff charge = you harm the enemies evade and attack speed significantly, if the enemy assassin purges and you land your 2 style long stun you won the fight.

Vs my pierce NS the debuff even harms my weaponskill and dmg giving the SB a slight advantage in the else even 1v1.

Slash NS has to sacrifice a lot of weaponskill and damage by going 100% str with as low str as luri/elf have. Also many of the non assassin matchups get rly hard for a slash ns, while my pierce ns can destroy chain/plate wearers.

The game is rock/paper/scissors - if the slash ns spec is the rock vs your sbs scissors, there is also paper that beats him. - Even tho as i mentioned inicially if you just use the advantages you have access to you come out on top often enough.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:03 PM by Saroi

SB do not suffer from Style growth Rates. They actually gain. We are at patch level 1.65. With Patch 1.62 when LA got the big nerf, they also changed the state of Light tanks Merc/BM/Berserker, giving them higher Growth Rate and different style effects.

Now check NS/Ranger and look their Growth Rate on the Side Chain from CD and you will see, that the damage is lower than BM. Now Check Backchain from SB to Berserker and you will see, that they are the same which should not be. SB also gained access to the Cold proc on Aurora Borealis which was Berserker only. Aurora Borealis has also been buffed on the damage back then which SB's have access here too. Inf have the same Growth Rate than Merc here but they got a Bleed nerf on Dual Shadows, making it the same has it was on live. So overall only SB's have access to the Light Tank buffs.

The reason PA or overall 2h was stronger back then was simply because the game was new and a lot of people didn't have fully access to buffbots or temps, especially since you couldn't easily buy all the stuff from feather merchant etc.. After the enervating change PA is relevant now and a 2h PA can do serious damage to casters.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:04 PM by thirian24

Delegator wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:22 PM
SBs suffer disproportionately from the style growth rates on Phoenix, particularly PA, because their unique ability (2-handed weapons) just really doesn't matter on Phoenix. When archers do 2x the damage of PA (or same if the target has a bubble), and do so from range...well that's why my RR5 SB has been on the shelf for 9 months. NS and Scouts have their unique abilities that are either basically unaffected here (insta DD or shield with snare now added), but SB has only suffered.

I never understood why people come to the forums and bitch about SB being so weak that they cant play it anymore or refuse to play it.

So, to test it out, I made an SB. I spent time gathering things for a nice template, gathered the proper weapons, proper armor procs, use items etc etc.

I never ever had an issue competing against NS or Infil. Sure I was beat by some higher rank NS at times, but I also killed my fair share of high rank NS, while I was rr3. I mean, what I'm saying is, I never ever felt like I was screwed over in anyway while playing the SB. To add to this, I do think that SBs do not have the option to run nice feather debuff weapons like HIB and ALB do. I think that is unfair to them. I even sent PMs to the staff about this issue, which they never replied to. Don't get me wrong, NS is tough when you look at their nice ASR coupled with the dex/qui debuff weapon that they all run. That can be a STRUGGLE to overcome.

Now.. after playing the SB for a bit, and having many many other SBs send me tells asking for advice, or asking me how I wasn't struggling with opponents that they regularly struggle with, I can see why many SBs feel like they are weak. Ill break down some of my conversations into reasons why the people I talked to were struggling.

1. Terrible speccing
2. Not using 16.5dps weapons
3. Using very odd weapon speeds because of "reasons"
4. No template OR not a perfect template
5. Not knowing how to reapply or rotate poisons
6. Not having multiple weapons to rotate.
7. Terrible armor proc choices
8. Using their stun anytime they could (I see/seen this sooo much. stunning early and not waiting for your opponent to greed purge is a death sentence)
9. Odd RA choices
These are just some of the reasons that come to mind off the top of my head.

I also did this with Infil, b/c I wanted to see why Infils were crying. (at one point infils were coming to the forums crying also.) So I made an infil, did the same thing with it that I did with the SB, and it was a pure ripper. After talking to many many infils and being asked the same questions, I concluded the same issues that you can read above #1-9.

After playing all 3 of the assassins, I think they are all very equally balanced. The only thing I would change is, giving the SBs some type of feather debuff weapon thats actually usable, especially after the nerf to the debuff sword. No SB specs sword anymore b/c of it. They need an axe debuff weapon.

So to conclude, even if you're on your A game 100% of the time, given the current situation with hibs usually holding all 6 relics.. NS are going to be a struggle because they have a huge advantage with the relic bonuses. When something is soooo closely balanced, and you give someone an edge(relic bonuses) over the other 2, they will outshine everyone else most of the time.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:05 PM by Nephamael

If you want more favorable matchups for your SB again, ask the DEVs to improve /fair toggle /fair list, to get visible solos back into the frontier.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:48 PM by Saroi

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:01 PM
Honestly SBs are the strongest assassins at low rank and on Phoenix they have one extreme advantage over NS and Inf.

That is a d/q debuff charge NS and Inf have no access to.

What d/q debuff charge are you talking about? Feather item with 56 d/q debuff value?

Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:01 PM by Noashakra

Nice points hwaatt.
I would just say that yes, NS has a nice debuff weapon. But SB has the triple dot, and the Inf has the add dmg weapon.
So overall, it's different, not worst.

Most SB play like shit tbh, like you said, A LOT don't swap weapons (some don't even play with poisons!!!)

I will take the top rp from 35 SB from this week, and tell you who plays well his SB :
Mileena
Hambone
Mixalis
Sheani

I had really tough fights vs Mileena, and she is not even 6L
The rest is mostly bad players and it's not the class fault.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:10 PM by Tamy

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:01 PM
Honestly SBs are the strongest assassins at low rank and on Phoenix they have one extreme advantage over NS and Inf.

That is a d/q debuff charge NS and Inf have no access to.

You open the fight with the debuff charge = you harm the enemies evade and attack speed significantly, if the enemy assassin purges and you land your 2 style long stun you won the fight.

Vs my pierce NS the debuff even harms my weaponskill and dmg giving the SB a slight advantage in the else even 1v1.

Slash NS has to sacrifice a lot of weaponskill and damage by going 100% str with as low str as luri/elf have. Also many of the non assassin matchups get rly hard for a slash ns, while my pierce ns can destroy chain/plate wearers.

The game is rock/paper/scissors - if the slash ns spec is the rock vs your sbs scissors, there is also paper that beats him. - Even tho as i mentioned inicially if you just use the advantages you have access to you come out on top often enough.

Newsflash: Every realm has access to d/q debuff charges through alchemy.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:32 PM by Freedomcall

What do you mean by "Triple DoT" btw?
Lifebane, feather DoT and crafted weapon DoT?
Then that is not unique thing only SBs can access.
Every class with every spec can run triple dot.

There is some weird trend among ssins which makes them super obsessed with slowest weapon as possible.
Although using slower weapon is good in general, more important aspect is proc of the weapon.
It is ok to use faster weapon if it has useful proc on it.

And I still use Sword for s/c debuff proc and it's still effective.
Going Axe does not change things that much unless you are going to hold 39 axe for side dehaste.

Anyway, back to the OP....
Are we still going to feed SBs whining about their class?

If you think NS is stronger, reroll NS yourself and see what happens.
I doubt you'll do any better with NS tbh.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:43 PM by asnusia

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:01 PM
Nice points hwaatt.
I would just say that yes, NS has a nice debuff weapon. But SB has the triple dot, and the Inf has the add dmg weapon.
So overall, it's different, not worst.

Most SB play like shit tbh, like you said, A LOT don't swap weapons (some don't even play with poisons!!!)

I will take the top rp from 35 SB from this week, and tell you who plays well his SB :
Mileena
Hambone
Mixalis
Sheani

I had really tough fights vs Mileena, and she is not even 6L
The rest is mostly bad players and it's not the class fault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1xDvLB88Js

Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:44 PM by Noashakra

All classes can do triple dots, but you don't do it with NS blade because the weapon suck (3.3 speed) .
It's kind of the same for infiltrator.

There is some weird trend among ssins which makes them super obsessed with slowest weapon as possible.
Although using slower weapon is good in general, more important aspect is proc of the weapon.
It is ok to use faster weapon if it has useful proc on it.

Because the DPS you lose by going for a fast weapon is not worth a proc which has 17% chances to proc.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 8:25 PM by Freedomcall

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:44 PM
All classes can do triple dots, but you don't do it with NS blade because the weapon suck (3.3 speed) .
It's kind of the same for infiltrator.

There is some weird trend among ssins which makes them super obsessed with slowest weapon as possible.
Although using slower weapon is good in general, more important aspect is proc of the weapon.
It is ok to use faster weapon if it has useful proc on it.

Because the DPS you lose by going for a fast weapon is not worth a proc which has 17% chances to proc.

3.3 spd dot blades is one of the weapons I switch with my NS and it doesn't suck.
And thrust infils are forced to use faster weapon cuz 3 main weapons they use(dmg add, d/q debuff, dot) are all 3.3 speed.
Then does that mean thrust infils are unplayable?
I don't think so. They still do very well even after Dual shadows nerf and bleed mechanics change.

DPS lost by using faster weapon is compensated by good proc and chance to rotate poisons faster.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:31 PM by Cadebrennus

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 8:25 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:44 PM
All classes can do triple dots, but you don't do it with NS blade because the weapon suck (3.3 speed) .
It's kind of the same for infiltrator.

There is some weird trend among ssins which makes them super obsessed with slowest weapon as possible.
Although using slower weapon is good in general, more important aspect is proc of the weapon.
It is ok to use faster weapon if it has useful proc on it.

Because the DPS you lose by going for a fast weapon is not worth a proc which has 17% chances to proc.

3.3 spd dot blades is one of the weapons I switch with my NS and it doesn't suck.
And thrust infils are forced to use faster weapon cuz 3 main weapons they use(dmg add, d/q debuff, dot) are all 3.3 speed.
Then does that mean thrust infils are unplayable?
I don't think so. They still do very well even after Dual shadows nerf and bleed mechanics change.

DPS lost by using faster weapon is compensated by good proc and chance to rotate poisons faster.

Yes on the faster poison rotation, no on the better proc chance. Faster weapons have a lower proc chance, slower weapons have a higher proc chance.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:39 PM by Noashakra

How much faster? I am at 1.61s swing time with a 4.2, and at 1.50 when my 20% haste proc is on...
You don't optimise your DPS by using a 3.3.
The only time you could use a 3.3 weapon is on the PA, because the bonus is not impacted by the weapon speed.
That's why nobody uses the blade galla dot weapon in blade...

Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:56 PM by Freedomcall

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:31 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 8:25 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:44 PM
All classes can do triple dots, but you don't do it with NS blade because the weapon suck (3.3 speed) .
It's kind of the same for infiltrator.

There is some weird trend among ssins which makes them super obsessed with slowest weapon as possible.
Although using slower weapon is good in general, more important aspect is proc of the weapon.
It is ok to use faster weapon if it has useful proc on it.

Because the DPS you lose by going for a fast weapon is not worth a proc which has 17% chances to proc.

3.3 spd dot blades is one of the weapons I switch with my NS and it doesn't suck.
And thrust infils are forced to use faster weapon cuz 3 main weapons they use(dmg add, d/q debuff, dot) are all 3.3 speed.
Then does that mean thrust infils are unplayable?
I don't think so. They still do very well even after Dual shadows nerf and bleed mechanics change.

DPS lost by using faster weapon is compensated by good proc and chance to rotate poisons faster.

Yes on the faster poison rotation, no on the better proc chance. Faster weapons have a lower proc chance, slower weapons have a higher proc chance.

Compensated by 1. good proc and 2. chance to rotate poisons faster.
Didn't mean faster weapon has better proc chance.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:08 PM by Cadebrennus

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:56 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:31 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 8:25 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:44 PM
All classes can do triple dots, but you don't do it with NS blade because the weapon suck (3.3 speed) .
It's kind of the same for infiltrator.

There is some weird trend among ssins which makes them super obsessed with slowest weapon as possible.
Although using slower weapon is good in general, more important aspect is proc of the weapon.
It is ok to use faster weapon if it has useful proc on it.

Because the DPS you lose by going for a fast weapon is not worth a proc which has 17% chances to proc.

3.3 spd dot blades is one of the weapons I switch with my NS and it doesn't suck.
And thrust infils are forced to use faster weapon cuz 3 main weapons they use(dmg add, d/q debuff, dot) are all 3.3 speed.
Then does that mean thrust infils are unplayable?
I don't think so. They still do very well even after Dual shadows nerf and bleed mechanics change.

DPS lost by using faster weapon is compensated by good proc and chance to rotate poisons faster.

Yes on the faster poison rotation, no on the better proc chance. Faster weapons have a lower proc chance, slower weapons have a higher proc chance.

Compensated by 1. good proc and 2. chance to rotate poisons faster.
Didn't mean faster weapon has better proc chance.

So what exactly do you mean by "good proc" and how does it relate to faster weapons? Please clarify.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:12 PM by Freedomcall

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:39 PM
How much faster? I am at 1.61s swing time with a 4.2, and at 1.50 when my 20% haste proc is on...
You don't optimise your DPS by using a 3.3.
The only time you could use a 3.3 weapon is on the PA, because the bonus is not impacted by the weapon speed.
That's why nobody uses the blade galla dot weapon in blade...

Well, true, if you invest your points into AugQui and MoA and cap your swing speed with 4.2 weapon already, using 3.3 weapon should be a waste.
But imo focusing on Tireless and Viper is better and you won't be able to cap those 2 with purge4+ until RR10.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:25 PM by Freedomcall

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:08 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:56 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:31 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 8:25 PM
3.3 spd dot blades is one of the weapons I switch with my NS and it doesn't suck.
And thrust infils are forced to use faster weapon cuz 3 main weapons they use(dmg add, d/q debuff, dot) are all 3.3 speed.
Then does that mean thrust infils are unplayable?
I don't think so. They still do very well even after Dual shadows nerf and bleed mechanics change.

DPS lost by using faster weapon is compensated by good proc and chance to rotate poisons faster.

Yes on the faster poison rotation, no on the better proc chance. Faster weapons have a lower proc chance, slower weapons have a higher proc chance.

Compensated by 1. good proc and 2. chance to rotate poisons faster.
Didn't mean faster weapon has better proc chance.

So what exactly do you mean by "good proc" and how does it relate to faster weapons? Please clarify.

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:32 PM
There is some weird trend among ssins which makes them super obsessed with slowest weapon as possible.
Although using slower weapon is good in general, more important aspect is proc of the weapon.
It is ok to use faster weapon if it has useful proc on it.

This part is where Noashakra and I started to talk.
And also, I wrote in previous comment that "Infiltrator are doing well although they are forced to use faster weapon with dmg add, d/q debuff, dot procs"
You can see all my comments here are about "You should not avoid Using weapons with useful procs(in general) just because it has faster speed."

Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:41 PM by Jiraishin

Saroi wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:25 PM
Not sure what changes you are asking about. If you mean the Q2 changes like Side or evade stun then Staff last mention was that they don't intend to do an overall style change and just break up 3 oder 4 part style chains into 2part. (Like Harmstring/Ripper or Snowsquall/Aurora Borealis).

So there won't be really any changes.

Thanks that is the answer I have been searching for.

Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:52 PM by Jiraishin

Tamy wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:10 PM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:01 PM
Honestly SBs are the strongest assassins at low rank and on Phoenix they have one extreme advantage over NS and Inf.

That is a d/q debuff charge NS and Inf have no access to.

You open the fight with the debuff charge = you harm the enemies evade and attack speed significantly, if the enemy assassin purges and you land your 2 style long stun you won the fight.

Vs my pierce NS the debuff even harms my weaponskill and dmg giving the SB a slight advantage in the else even 1v1.

Slash NS has to sacrifice a lot of weaponskill and damage by going 100% str with as low str as luri/elf have. Also many of the non assassin matchups get rly hard for a slash ns, while my pierce ns can destroy chain/plate wearers.

The game is rock/paper/scissors - if the slash ns spec is the rock vs your sbs scissors, there is also paper that beats him. - Even tho as i mentioned inicially if you just use the advantages you have access to you come out on top often enough.

Newsflash: Every realm has access to d/q debuff charges through alchemy.

The newsflash makes me laugh hard. Some people man lmao

I know how to play my SB and switching between up to 12 weapons within 1 fight. But if you loose when everything is up for you and your opponent and he has 40% life left being a blade NS + relics it's just not balanced. However, thanks to the people with good and funny answers

Mon 7 Sep 2020 6:01 AM by Noashakra

Jiraishin wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:52 PM
The newsflash makes me laugh hard. Some people man lmao I know how to play my SB and switching between up to 12 weapons within 1 fight. But if you loose when everything is up for you and your opponent and he has 40% life left being a blade NS + relics it's just not balanced. However, thanks to the people with good and funny answers

Who is your SB, if you are willing to give us its name.

Mon 7 Sep 2020 6:46 AM by inoeth

call me ig i can give you advice
actually i think sb is alot stronger now than ns/infi with rr5+
go 50 la and axe spec, join the triple dot meta et voila you win

Mon 7 Sep 2020 11:12 AM by asnusia

Im rr 5 specced 50 la 39 axe but i have run with 39 la 33 cs and both are viable. I think when i will hit 6l to come back to cs spec somethink like 41la34cs or 44cs30la.
I use triple dot setup because SB doesnt have good procs, i have started with 15,0 DPS offhand crafted hand axe 2,4 speed with Matter dot but offhand procrate rate is realy low so i use 2,4 Speed rog and switch dragonmight with 4,2 crafted with dot as soon as It procs imho ita the fastest way to apply both

Mon 7 Sep 2020 7:03 PM by nkeplinger1

Nightshade magic dmg and/or range needs a nerf.

Mon 7 Sep 2020 7:16 PM by Noashakra

nkeplinger1 wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Sep 2020 7:03 PM
Nightshade magic dmg and/or range needs a nerf.

Sure and you give us the difference in HP, STR and skill points ?

Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:40 PM by Nephamael

After playing all 3 of the assassins, I think they are all very equally balanced. The only thing I would change is, giving the SBs some type of feather debuff weapon thats actually usable, especially after the nerf to the debuff sword. No SB specs sword anymore b/c of it. They need an axe debuff weapon.

Honestly the same applies for pierce NS and thrust Inf. - The str/c debuff nerf affected not only SBs and the thrust inf never had a decent feather proc ever. (yes i also played and play all 3 assassins and imo inf is the strongest, but only by a very slight margin)

Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:43 PM by Nephamael

What d/q debuff charge are you talking about? Feather item with 56 d/q debuff value?

TG d/q debuff charge cloak.

Newsflash: Every realm has access to d/q debuff charges through alchemy.

yes that's true, but you have to sacrifice a proc, at least for a switch in timewindow to use it on hib/alb and have to perform the extra switch in and out.

Mon 7 Sep 2020 9:58 PM by Saroi

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:43 PM
What d/q debuff charge are you talking about? Feather item with 56 d/q debuff value?

TG d/q debuff charge cloak.

Newsflash: Every realm has access to d/q debuff charges through alchemy.

yes that's true, but you have to sacrifice a proc, at least for a switch in timewindow to use it on hib/alb and have to perform the extra switch in and out.

Well switching isn't that hard, especially if you take it on boots/gloves that don't have that high of hit chance so you don't really lose that much.

But as a SB you don't even need that cloak if you really want to use d/q debuff. You can make crafted Throwing weapons and put a DD charge or d/q charge on it.
The same can be said as an Inf. You can craft a Crossbow and put a DD or d/q charge on it.

Tue 8 Sep 2020 6:04 AM by inoeth

Saroi wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Sep 2020 9:58 PM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:43 PM
What d/q debuff charge are you talking about? Feather item with 56 d/q debuff value?

TG d/q debuff charge cloak.

Newsflash: Every realm has access to d/q debuff charges through alchemy.

yes that's true, but you have to sacrifice a proc, at least for a switch in timewindow to use it on hib/alb and have to perform the extra switch in and out.

Well switching isn't that hard, especially if you take it on boots/gloves that don't have that high of hit chance so you don't really lose that much.

But as a SB you don't even need that cloak if you really want to use d/q debuff. You can make crafted Throwing weapons and put a DD charge or d/q charge on it.
The same can be said as an Inf. You can craft a Crossbow and put a DD or d/q charge on it.

psst dont tell all the secrets

Tue 8 Sep 2020 6:09 AM by Nephamael

But as a SB you don't even need that cloak if you really want to use d/q debuff. You can make crafted Throwing weapons and put a DD charge or d/q charge on it.
The same can be said as an Inf. You can craft a Crossbow and put a DD or d/q charge on it.

My crossbow needs a dot proc, sry

Thu 10 Sep 2020 5:18 PM by Jiraishin

I think 31 NS vs 11 SBs speak for itself (Infis are just more out right now because of the relic situation). Its almost the same every day when you look into the /serverinfo at least at normal EU times.

Thu 10 Sep 2020 10:21 PM by Noashakra

Jiraishin wrote: ↑
Thu 10 Sep 2020 5:18 PM
I think 31 NS vs 11 SBs speak for itself (Infis are just more out right now because of the relic situation). Its almost the same every day when you look into the /serverinfo at least at normal EU times.

Do you think hunters are OP? Because there is more hunters than rangers , NS or infiltrators...
Or maybe there are other factors, like the fact that it's easier to farm for a weaponless template, or many other reasons?
It's convenient to throw out the infiltrators when it suits you. Rk bonuses have minimal impacts on solo play.

Still waiting for your SB name btw.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 6:04 AM by Sepplord

to be fair, he didn't throw infils out because it suits him....quite the opposite if there are even more infils

Fri 11 Sep 2020 7:39 AM by Noashakra

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 6:04 AM
to be fair, he didn't throw infils out because it suits him....quite the opposite if there are even more infils

it suits him because he says NS are OP because, and the number of NS online is proof... They were more infiltrators connected than NS (because of a mere 2% dmg bonus lol), so by his own flawed logic, infiltrators are more OP than NS, and he should complain about them... So it's convenient to elude that because it goes against "the MUH NS so OP!!"

Fri 11 Sep 2020 8:07 AM by asnusia

I play a 6L SB and it's realy strong!

Fights between sins are balanced imho.

For example yesterday i have killed a lots of 10l/11l ns (and die a lots too

) but it's the game.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 9:44 AM by Sepplord

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 7:39 AM
it suits him because he says NS are OP because, and the number of NS online is proof... They were more infiltrators connected than NS (because of a mere 2% dmg bonus lol), so by his own flawed logic, infiltrators are more OP than NS, and he should complain about them... So it's convenient to elude that because it goes against "the MUH NS so OP!!"

the thread is about SBs being too weak though...so even more infiltrators helps that argument (if we are to make conclusions directly from populations)

Fri 11 Sep 2020 11:01 AM by Noashakra

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 9:44 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 7:39 AM
it suits him because he says NS are OP because, and the number of NS online is proof... They were more infiltrators connected than NS (because of a mere 2% dmg bonus lol), so by his own flawed logic, infiltrators are more OP than NS, and he should complain about them... So it's convenient to elude that because it goes against "the MUH NS so OP!!"

the thread is about SBs being too weak though...so even more infiltrators helps that argument (if we are to make conclusions directly from populations)

The SB has a huge advantage vs Infiltrator, because the best spec is pierce.

I play a 6L SB and it's realy strong!

Fights between sins are balanced imho.

For example yesterday i have killed a lots of 10l/11l ns (and die a lots too ) but it's the game.

Yep... Again today, this morning I destroyed a SB, he didn't even switch his weapons to apply disease and str debuff...
But SB is gimp, am I right?

Mon 14 Sep 2020 11:05 AM by Jiraishin

Funny how all the overpowered NS players defend the NS. Infis arent as strong as a NS they have a fake stun but if you are experienced you just use purge on their 9 sec stun and dont waste it on the fake. Thats why I dont care Infis. But NS are just a joke. And for sure I didnt mention ranger or scouts because its balance between MELEE STEALTHERS for all those who arent able to read carefully.

And I am using about 14 sets (2 weapons = 1 set) to bring on all the necessary posions depending on my opponents class and to have poisoned weapons left to repoison after my opponent purged it BUT....if you can only switch 3-4 times because you are alrdy on 10% or 20% life against the NS while the NS is jumping happy arround having 50% life is stupid. You cant even kite a NS with crippling poison because of the stupid DDs and its range while a NS can kite a SB.

To me it seems like most people in here barely play stealthers....most people not all. To all of that a SB doesnt have any alternate Spec since CS is superbad and swordspec became obsolete since the str/con debuff sword nerf. I am not even sure if the people are aware of it. And again 15% less hp of 2136 hp still can't just compensate the diffrences in damage tables like I mentioned before. It just doesnt.

And I am not speaking of those NS where I 5-8 hit them and almost win flawless, no. I am speaking of NS players who know what they are doing.
And Metagaming doesn't lie as well thats why we see so many Scouts, NS and Ranger but barely SB or Infis. The increase of the Infil population just started when the Albs had 5 relics.

Mon 14 Sep 2020 11:08 AM by Jiraishin

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 11:01 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 9:44 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 7:39 AM
it suits him because he says NS are OP because, and the number of NS online is proof... They were more infiltrators connected than NS (because of a mere 2% dmg bonus lol), so by his own flawed logic, infiltrators are more OP than NS, and he should complain about them... So it's convenient to elude that because it goes against "the MUH NS so OP!!"

the thread is about SBs being too weak though...so even more infiltrators helps that argument (if we are to make conclusions directly from populations)

The SB has a huge advantage vs Infiltrator, because the best spec is pierce.

I play a 6L SB and it's realy strong!

Fights between sins are balanced imho.

For example yesterday i have killed a lots of 10l/11l ns (and die a lots too ) but it's the game.

Yep... Again today, this morning I destroyed a SB, he didn't even switch his weapons to apply disease and str debuff...
But SB is gimp, am I right?

And you troll tell me that I shouldnt make a balance-statement referring to the population but you do by killing 1 scrubby SB which didnt apply poison on the weapon. Get off dude this is pathetic and ridiculous.

Mon 14 Sep 2020 12:41 PM by inoeth

i think you did not understand this

that was just an example that bad players just lose .... and then eventually cry for buffs
at least thats how i interpret this

Mon 14 Sep 2020 12:56 PM by thirian24

NS OP, nerf RFA.

Wed 16 Sep 2020 6:29 PM by MeatBicycle

Personally i would say that the assassins are quite balanced. But what bothers me the most is that you have to spec 50 Left Axe to be competitive. So you don't have PA+CD Combo which can be gamechanging in assassin fights with a lucky opener. Sometimes you get perfed and you don't have a chance anymore but you can't perf an assassin by yourself as sb, that sucks. Often i'm faster than my enemy but don't have that chain, but when i'm slower and getting perfed its just a horrible fight.

Wed 16 Sep 2020 10:53 PM by The Skies Asunder

Revert to old RAs, so only NS gets Viper, and also has access to AP. Or add early NF rr5 abilities so only NS has remedy. This server has done nothing to help NS (I am disregarding the blades stun because it's nearly useless, and sometimes detrimental). Certainly 2-hand damage could use some help for SB, but acting like the problem is somehow NS doesn't help.

The assassin classes are really close on Phoenix, if they weren't you would likely see more high rank ones complaining here.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:26 AM by Nephamael

Personally i would say that the assassins are quite balanced. But what bothers me the most is that you have to spec 50 Left Axe to be competitive. So you don't have PA+CD Combo which can be gamechanging in assassin fights with a lucky opener. Sometimes you get perfed and you don't have a chance anymore but you can't perf an assassin by yourself as sb, that sucks. Often i'm faster than my enemy but don't have that chain, but when i'm slower and getting perfed its just a horrible fight.

try 44 cs at lower ranks, at higher ranks you can get 34 cs and 50 la

Thu 17 Sep 2020 6:26 AM by asnusia

im rr6 and i run 44cs 30la and i like it

from my tests base dmg with 50la on the dummy:

mh65 (4,2 speed) off30 (2,4 speed)

base dmg with 30la (same weapons):

mh61 off 25

not a big difference and with 44cs you have pa combo and hamstring chain with higher grow rate

Thu 17 Sep 2020 7:15 AM by inoeth

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
Revert to old RAs, so only NS gets Viper, and also has access to AP. Or add early NF rr5 abilities so only NS has remedy. This server has done nothing to help NS (I am disregarding the blades stun because it's nearly useless, and sometimes detrimental). Certainly 2-hand damage could use some help for SB, but acting like the problem is somehow NS doesn't help.

The assassin classes are really close on Phoenix, if they weren't you would likely see more high rank ones complaining here.

yeah ofc NS is soooo weak, why dont you also bring the celt ns thing back into the discussion?
fact: ns dominated the assassin game a long time and then got a little nerf because their dmg was ridicolous
now all the assassins are pretty even, though imo ns are still a little stronger since they can spec mom

Thu 17 Sep 2020 7:36 AM by gotwqqd

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 7:15 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
Revert to old RAs, so only NS gets Viper, and also has access to AP. Or add early NF rr5 abilities so only NS has remedy. This server has done nothing to help NS (I am disregarding the blades stun because it's nearly useless, and sometimes detrimental). Certainly 2-hand damage could use some help for SB, but acting like the problem is somehow NS doesn't help.

The assassin classes are really close on Phoenix, if they weren't you would likely see more high rank ones complaining here.

yeah ofc NS is soooo weak, why dont you also bring the celt ns thing back into the discussion?
fact: ns dominated the assassin game a long time and then got a little nerf because their dmg was ridicolous
now all the assassins are pretty even, though imo ns are still a little stronger since they can spec mom

What was the little nerf?

Thu 17 Sep 2020 8:28 AM by inoeth

armor specific dmg bonus was reduced from 10% to 5% to close the massive 20% gap for mids which did 10% less dmg with slash weapons on hib leather/studded while hibs did 10% more dmg on mid leather/studded

Thu 17 Sep 2020 9:45 AM by Noashakra

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 7:15 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
Revert to old RAs, so only NS gets Viper, and also has access to AP. Or add early NF rr5 abilities so only NS has remedy. This server has done nothing to help NS (I am disregarding the blades stun because it's nearly useless, and sometimes detrimental). Certainly 2-hand damage could use some help for SB, but acting like the problem is somehow NS doesn't help.

The assassin classes are really close on Phoenix, if they weren't you would likely see more high rank ones complaining here.

yeah ofc NS is soooo weak, why dont you also bring the celt ns thing back into the discussion?
fact: ns dominated the assassin game a long time and then got a little nerf because their dmg was ridicolous
now all the assassins are pretty even, though imo ns are still a little stronger since they can spec mom

I think the NS is a little bit under the SB and inf, but it's reaallyyyy close.
I would not blame people to think one is above the other, but it's like really maginal.

Otherwise, the hardest matchup for me is vs critblade at low/middle rank, because when a SZ open vs you with an anytime, it's pretty even matchup. But if you perf them, it's really hard to come back.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 10:36 AM by inoeth

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 9:45 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 7:15 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
Revert to old RAs, so only NS gets Viper, and also has access to AP. Or add early NF rr5 abilities so only NS has remedy. This server has done nothing to help NS (I am disregarding the blades stun because it's nearly useless, and sometimes detrimental). Certainly 2-hand damage could use some help for SB, but acting like the problem is somehow NS doesn't help.

The assassin classes are really close on Phoenix, if they weren't you would likely see more high rank ones complaining here.

yeah ofc NS is soooo weak, why dont you also bring the celt ns thing back into the discussion?
fact: ns dominated the assassin game a long time and then got a little nerf because their dmg was ridicolous
now all the assassins are pretty even, though imo ns are still a little stronger since they can spec mom

I think the NS is a little bit under the SB and inf, but it's reaallyyyy close.
I would not blame people to think one is above the other, but it's like really maginal.

Otherwise, the hardest matchup for me is vs critblade at low/middle rank, because when a SZ open vs you with an anytime, it's pretty even matchup. But if you perf them, it's really hard to come back.

since the last PA/debuff changes, a PA is literally a death sentence if you dont have ip5 and even then its still hard to win and most ppl just vanish as soon as you ip

Thu 17 Sep 2020 10:51 AM by MeatBicycle

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:26 AM
Personally i would say that the assassins are quite balanced. But what bothers me the most is that you have to spec 50 Left Axe to be competitive. So you don't have PA+CD Combo which can be gamechanging in assassin fights with a lucky opener. Sometimes you get perfed and you don't have a chance anymore but you can't perf an assassin by yourself as sb, that sucks. Often i'm faster than my enemy but don't have that chain, but when i'm slower and getting perfed its just a horrible fight.

try 44 cs at lower ranks, at higher ranks you can get 34 cs and 50 la

Of course you can go for more cs, but then you don't have the after evade follow up stun which can be a game changer as well. Furthermore you need rr10 to get 34 cs and 50 la without any big losses (so in my opinion on really high rr the sb has more advantages because of that spec ). Up to rr10 you either miss the pa chain or the after evade follow up stun. But to be honest i can't complain. atm 7L3 with my solo sb, can compete with rr9+ assassins but got stomped by Brainstorm yesterday because i got perfed.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 11:26 AM by Saroi

MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 10:51 AM
Of course you can go for more cs, but then you don't have the after evade follow up stun which can be a game changer as well. Furthermore you need rr10 to get 34 cs and 50 la without any big losses (so in my opinion on really high rr the sb has more advantages because of that spec ). Up to rr10 you either miss the pa chain or the after evade follow up stun. But to be honest i can't complain. atm 7L3 with my solo sb, can compete with rr9+ assassins but got stomped by Brainstorm yesterday because i got perfed.

If you value the stun, both weaponlines have access to stuns too. Axe has it even in 34 so it is easier to get than Sword/LA.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 11:32 AM by MeatBicycle

Saroi wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 11:26 AM
MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 10:51 AM
Of course you can go for more cs, but then you don't have the after evade follow up stun which can be a game changer as well. Furthermore you need rr10 to get 34 cs and 50 la without any big losses (so in my opinion on really high rr the sb has more advantages because of that spec ). Up to rr10 you either miss the pa chain or the after evade follow up stun. But to be honest i can't complain. atm 7L3 with my solo sb, can compete with rr9+ assassins but got stomped by Brainstorm yesterday because i got perfed.

If you value the stun, both weaponlines have access to stuns too. Axe has it even in 34 so it is easier to get than Sword/LA.

yeah sorry, thats my bad. I just respecced for testing and saw the stun on 34 axe. Had only the 39 sword stun and 39 left axe in mind which i can't reach with 44 cs. I will try some stuff. Played 44 cs up until rr5, then switched la, now back to cs on rr7. Thought about switching back to cs for a while since the mop nerf because snare anytimer with viper5 is just great.