Keep Fight Changes

Started 5 Sep 2020
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
The proposed changes are still very much subject to change.

Goal: Reduce keep fights without defenders, increase keep fights with defenders

How:
1) Less incentives for empty keeps:
Reduce base rp for taking foreign keeps

2) More incentives to defend
Increase keep pool rp
Defenders always get 50% of the pool and attackers always get 50% of the pool regardless of siege outcome (subject to some limitations to avoid someone just running by / sole suicider to collect the full 50% or a single defender vs 100)
Potentially some oil rework, examples could include making the damage unavoidable but reducing the damage while making it a group effort of the defenders (e. g. some material gathering) instead of a winner / first controller takes all

3) More time to react to sieges
Double the minimum distance between siege weapons (catapults)
Potentially reduce allowed rams per door
Potentially something to test / see in action: Some way to teleport to keeps under siege
Variant 1: Branches / Snow / Soil can now be turned in as max level character at some npc in your relic town, turning in 1000 will grant 1 teleport to a home keep that will ignore target keep siege status and teleport chain status to that keep (you still have to own the keep). You can teleport this way once every 5 minutes.
Variant 2: People inside a home keep can turn in soil / branches / snow and every ~200 will allow a realm member to teleport to this keep regardless of siege status and teleport chain status.
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:01 PM by Strikejk
Sounds all good except for this:
Double the minimum distance between siege weapons (catapults)

This will really only change on thing; reducing the amount of catapults the defenders can utilize inside the keep to shoot the ram to slow down door damage.

And quite frankly that seems counterproductive to your intended goal because will speed up sieges not slow them down, especially for the outter gate.
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:02 PM by gruenesschaf
Strikejk wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:01 PM
Sounds all good except for this:
Double the minimum distance between siege weapons (catapults)

This will really only change on thing; reducing the amount of catapults the defenders can utilize inside the keep to shoot the ram to slow down door damage.

And quite frankly that seems counterproductive to your intended goal because will speed up sieges not slow them down, especially for the outter gate.

The range increase could be made to only take effect outside of keeps
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:06 PM by Strikejk
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:02 PM
The range increase could be made to only take effect outside of keeps

Yeah that would work. However attacking catapults are mostly used to counter attack defender catapults, to rupt enemies on walls, and to deny the wall area all together if numbers are sufficient. Also to open the gatehouse for an easier siege. Not sure that would inherently slow down the siege, especially not against ninja-attacks that basically work by placing down 5-6 rams filling them up and opening the door so quickly nobody has even time to get there. (And then camp postern once you are inside to prevent reinforcements)
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:11 PM by tech27
I think keep takes should be easier, and it should be take-able with 5-6 people. This creates more keep fights during low population times and during peak EU prime times. Currently there are almost no keep takes during low pop times (450 to 700 clients logged on), as it requires 30+ to take a keep with defenders.
Some ideas:

1) Oil is currently a weapon of mass destruction. Fix Oil so it doesn't damage through doors and walls. In towers, if you're inside the tower on bottom floor on the corner where the door is, or if you're inside at bottom of gatehouse close to the spiral stairs, you can be damaged by oil through the wall. This should be fixed.

2) Reduce the number of guards to 1/4th current # and increase their re-pop times. Way too many archer guards with large agro range that make casting anything impossible. Guards are just annoying and make keep takes a frustrating experience.

3) Make keep walls and keep siege equipment and central keep destroy-able, like on Live with player built Trebs. These trebs shouldn't do 800+ dmg to players, but should allow 1-2 players take create holes in keep walls and take down towers in 10 minutes or so. Having holes in walls reduces the effectiveness of oils as there is no need to go through the doors under oils.

4) Make keep's oil and treb repop slower (20 minute repop instead of 10 min). These are high dps that can be healed. It takes 3-4 catas to kill a treb if a healing class is operating. The healers can spam heals since catapult damage doesn't interrupt spells.

5) Make gatehouse doors open, or make the gatehouse doors much easier to take down, so defenders cant hide inside and camp oil.
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:11 PM by Strikejk
The best way to prevent ninja-assaults would be a cap of rams per door, like 3 for example.

In theory you could increase the door HP but that would increase all siege durations, not just the ninja attacks. Typical sieges with big BGs use 3 rams per door and the timing of that imo is reasonable. The main problem are BGs who place 5-6 rams and fill them completely which results in basically no time for the defenders to get to the keep before the gate is down. This usually only works on undefended keeps because with defenders in a keep the damage area at the rams usually prevents completely filled rams in that quantity.
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:18 PM by Centenario
tech27 wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:11 PM
I think keep takes should be easier, and it should be take-able with 5-6 people. This creates more keep fights during low population times and during peak EU prime times. Currently there are almost no keep takes during low pop times (450 to 700 clients logged on), as it requires 30+ to take a keep with defenders.

I personally don't do much RvR because it feels like a waste of time, you spend 5 hours trying to take or retake forts, just so that the next day everything has changed...
It would be a little more epic, if it would be more challenging to take keeps.

If I spend time taking a fort, I would like to be able to keep it for a few days; at the moment it feels like "meh, why take a fort, it will be taken back in a few minutes or when i logout".
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:24 PM by Strikejk
Centenario wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:18 PM
tech27 wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:11 PM
I think keep takes should be easier, and it should be take-able with 5-6 people. This creates more keep fights during low population times and during peak EU prime times. Currently there are almost no keep takes during low pop times (450 to 700 clients logged on), as it requires 30+ to take a keep with defenders.

I personally don't do much RvR because it feels like a waste of time, you spend 5 hours trying to take or retake forts, just so that the next day everything has changed...
It would be a little more epic, if it would be more challenging to take keeps.

If I spend time taking a fort, I would like to be able to keep it for a few days; at the moment it feels like "meh, why take a fort, it will be taken back in a few minutes or when i logout".
I agree. Taking keeps shouldn't be made easier but it shouldn't be made much harder either.. especially the really hard to take keeps like Ailline or Scat, Hurb & Avakr. (Ailine/Hurb/Avakr because of the shape on Scat because of the short and thus quick & easy way to reinforce it).

The main issue right now is that its simply not worth the effort to attack a defended keep. You still get the same amount of RP for it but it takes easily 5 to 10x as long as an undefended keep which you can rush down in 7-8min. Giving a bigger incentivize to attack and defend keeps by increasing the RP gain is a welcome approach to fix this, that way you know you aren't losing out on RPs while having fun trying to crack (or def) that keep!
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:25 PM by kiectred
Pretty against any oil changes. Sucks to not get it I guess but it's already just a lucky shot if you get people with it basically, and it's destroyed really easily too. Adding an element of cooperation would just make it less useful... waiting on some people to do stuff while the oil gets nuked down. Even if you give it more HP seems like needlessly complicating things for the defenders.
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:25 PM by Spiegal
Pretty good ideas, the only drawback is this one, as mids have poor defense options and catapult was always favored.

Double the minimum distance between siege weapons (catapults)

Keep up the good work
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:02 AM by Fasalot
tech27 wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 11:11 PM
If I spend time taking a fort, I would like to be able to keep it for a few days; at the moment it feels like "meh, why take a fort, it will be taken back in a few minutes or when i logout".

Make keep takes more consequential. Make it so once a keep has switched hands, the inner door is indestructible for 24 hours (or maybe 4-12 hours so that more than one time zone has access to the process?). It could drive higher active involvement in planning and coordination? Leave the outer gate as-is for a possible sustained defense encounter. Maybe just do this with the inland keeps so its a bigger deal to take a relic? One hour for the coastline keeps? Would change the pve like dynamic of some BGs. If keeps were unable to be reclaimed for a period of time, and the inland keeps for a longer time, I would go defend more often.

Right now the siege style of PVP is just one of many styles. I don't think it has any more or less value than just as another way to get rps. It could be fun if it were more significant.

I don't know, an ownership timer after a siege could be used lots of different ways. Would leave towers as-is tho, don't want to mess up the sometimes fast changing access to DF.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:07 AM by Strikejk
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
Potentially something to test / see in action: Some way to teleport to keeps under siege
Variant 1: Branches / Snow / Soil can now be turned in as max level character at some npc in your relic town, turning in 1000 will grant 1 teleport to a home keep that will ignore target keep siege status and teleport chain status to that keep (you still have to own the keep). You can teleport this way once every 5 minutes.
Variant 2: People inside a home keep can turn in soil / branches / snow and every ~200 will allow a realm member to teleport to this keep regardless of siege status and teleport chain status.

In general I dislike people being able to teleport into a besieged keep. It removes the tactical aspect of defending side doors to prevent reinforcements. However If the community likes this style I have a different proposal than those 2 variants. Here is my idea:

Variant 3: Currently keeps can be claimed by guilds but that grants only minor benefits for that guild/alliance besides enabling the keep to lvl up. I believe it would be a nice addition if people could hand in soil/branches/snow of a certain amount* which enables them to port to a keep owned by their guild or alliance* regardless of siege status and teleport chain status.
This would allow guilds/alliances* to quickly respond to an attack on one of their keeps and prevents the enemy from ninja-assaulting the empty keep before sufficient reinforcements arrive. It would also open up strategic advantages to claim certain keeps by certain guilds/alliances and last but not least strengthen the pride in owning a keep and defending it for your realm!

*needs to be tested for balance

Thanks 4 reading
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:30 AM by Helwyr
Sounds like mostly good changes.

I think reducing the number of rams on a door to 1 or 2, combined with your RP changes would be very good. I'm much less sure about being able to port into keeps more easily, I'm not sure that would be a good change at all. If you want to find a use for snow/branches,dirt maybe to purchase special siege equipment.

Also oil as others have stated isn't the best implementation it could be. Oil is rarely useful at the start of the siege as it's just destroyed so easily, but sometimes when it respawns then someone hiding / camping up in the oil room will use it on unsuspecting victims. I would suggest the following changes... Magic and arrows no longer damage oil, meaning siege or melee is required to destroy them. In return the respawn timer is greatly lengthened for oil, and the damage the doors on the outer wall oil room have a big reduction in HP so they can be much more easily broken down when there's no wall defenders.

Another issue related to teleporting into keeps is docks, they are so often camped by multiple stealthers and roaming groups that they're not the useful transport system they I ought to be IMO. I think having docks be a mini capture point that has a squad of realm guards would be good change (albeit likely labor intensive for the devs), Nothing so strong that a group or even partial group couldn't kill, but then it shows up on the map as being held by the enemy, and if it's held by your realm you know if you make to the docks you've got some NPC support.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:55 AM by Hodge
Helwyr wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:30 AM
Sounds like mostly good changes.

I think reducing the number of rams on a door to 1 or 2, combined with your RP changes would be very good. I'm much less sure about being able to port into keeps more easily, I'm not sure that would be a good change at all. If you want to find a use for snow/branches,dirt maybe to purchase special siege equipment.

Also oil as others have stated isn't the best implementation it could be. Oil is rarely useful at the start of the siege as it's just destroyed so easily, but sometimes when it respawns then someone hiding / camping up in the oil room will use it on unsuspecting victims. I would suggest the following changes... Magic and arrows no longer damage oil, meaning siege or melee is required to destroy them. In return the respawn timer is greatly lengthened for oil, and the damage the doors on the outer wall oil room have a big reduction in HP so they can be much more easily broken down when there's no wall defenders.

Another issue related to teleporting into keeps is docks, they are so often camped by multiple stealthers and roaming groups that they're not the useful transport system they I ought to be IMO. I think having docks be a mini capture point that has a squad of realm guards would be good change (albeit likely labor intensive for the devs), Nothing so strong that a group or even partial group couldn't kill, but then it shows up on the map as being held by the enemy, and if it's held by your realm you know if you make to the docks you've got some NPC support.

I like the oil idea. Perhaps require that a climbs wall type can destroy it. This would require busting through the those doors near it. If so, then make rams reduce damage from oil by 50-75%?
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:59 AM by Wakefield
Some really good ideas,however I'm going to ask the obvious here.

Are you going to reset the relics and /rw so its "new" or are the relics just going to harder to take back after the changes?

I like the idea, but you gotta reset things back so it's as new.

Give a certain amount of time for keeps to be claimed, otherwise your going to have the huge zeros of Pilz and polemo taking everything with no chance of retakes, least from a mid perspective as it's only EU prime going to na the forces are there to do much
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:01 AM by DinoTriz
Let lowbies turn in branches/soil/snow as well to add to a community pool of allowed teleports. It could give bonus exp to incentivize turning them in at the relic rather than the dock, while also allowing lower level players feel as if they are helping the realm.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:02 AM by Davidalmightydaoc85
I like the idea of being able to destroy walls like live, so you can have more than one approach to attacking. I also like the way the keeps are upgraded in live. I feel like the keeps got larger and harder to attack on live as they level. Is there a way to add this to this version? Also make the windows on the keep walls useable by defenders. I remember getting shot through them, but couldn’t cast out.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:05 AM by DinoTriz
Hodge wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:55 AM
I like the oil idea. Perhaps require that a climbs wall type can destroy it. This would require busting through the those doors near it. If so, then make rams reduce damage from oil by 50-75%?

I like this idea. Adding a 3rd door in a way.

Also, it gives more value to melee classes.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:13 AM by Dialh
Reduce the reuse timer on Volley so my scouts can defend. I placed 1 in each of our keep for defense and they are worthless now.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:27 AM by Nephamael
I guess improving defenders qol to a certain extent is a good idea. Especially for Midgard that often lacks much ranged power.

So making Oil indestructible or only destroyable by melee classes is a great idea. - There could be a stack of oilcans inside the Mainkeep and or a stack of rocks, that defenders can carry to the Gate and throw/pour down onto the ram area from the current Oil position or maybe at all climbing spots?.

Ofc Oil dmg and eventual rock throw dmg would have to be balanced so it doesn't instantly kill anyone, but if people coordinate well can do significant damage.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 2:30 AM by Nephamael
Imo taking a keep uninterrupted has to stay fast, especially for low pop hours. So i guess a limitation of 2-3 rams per door and adjusting the keep door HP to go down as currently with 3 rams would be good.

To help low pop hour action further and make keepraids more enjoyable in general i think it is a good idea to think about reducing guards, especially the strong archer guards.

Instead tools for the defenders and multiple options for sally and retreat would focus the action more on PvP instead of PvE.

-
All foreign keeps should give the same RPs if they are defended.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 4:27 AM by Voso
All the changes seem reasonable except this one. This change would further reduce small man action intercepting zerg reinforcements and avoiding 8s doing flag tasks. Could you please combine all the branches,soil,snow into 1 item and give 1 to .5 ratio rps instead of trying to find something else for these items to be used for at 50.

Potentially something to test / see in action: Some way to teleport to keeps under siege
Variant 1: Branches / Snow / Soil can now be turned in as max level character at some npc in your relic town, turning in 1000 will grant 1 teleport to a home keep that will ignore target keep siege status and teleport chain status to that keep (you still have to own the keep). You can teleport this way once every 5 minutes.
Variant 2: People inside a home keep can turn in soil / branches / snow and every ~200 will allow a realm member to teleport to this keep regardless of siege status and teleport chain status.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:19 AM by JUSTNSANE
I love the dictatorship that the Pheonix dev teams has for this. This should be a vote.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:21 AM by gotwqqd
JUSTNSANE wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:19 AM
I love the dictatorship that the Pheonix dev teams has for this. This should be a vote.
I’m sure you would let customers tell you how to run your business
Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:44 AM by Adwaenyth
A few suggestions:

Change the ram damage respective to the amount of rams hitting a door for diminishing returns:

1 ram = 100% damage per ram
2 rams = 75% damage per ram (= 150% damage total)
3 rams = 67% damage per ram (= 201% damage total)
4 rams = 58% damage per ram (=232% damage total)
5 rams = 50% damage per ram (=250% damage total)
6 rams = 44% damage per ram (=264% damage total)

Change the realm point pool: 40% go to each side. 20% go to whoever wins. (Cap it at a certain amount so that no single defender gets all. E.g. if there are 50 attackers and only 1 "defender" then cap the contribution to a max of e.g. 5 times of what each attacker recieves, to leave some incentive to go and defend (e.g. better rps if fewer defenders than attackers))

Use Branches/Snow/Soil as resource for keep repair. Can only be used in the respective realm and work while keep is under siege but the respective item has to be out of combat for at least 30 seconds. Make an exchange rate suitable so that it won't be used to repair the keep indefinitely (and possibly also cap the maximum amount of branches / snow / soil one can have to a single stack).

Alternatively use Branches/Snow/Soil as upgrade resource for a keep. Each time you upgrade with the resource the gates / keep siege equipment gets stronger for a set amount of rp per resource (1 rp every 2 branches/snow/soil spent?). Work in combat unless the part is actively attacked (e.g. you can reinforce the inner door while the outer is being attacked). Will last a maximum of 24 hours. Only work in keeps of the respective realm.

Porting to a keep I think is a considerably bad idea. It removes all incentive for everyone to move across the map. You will have a zerg standing in the relic town, waiting for timer to cool down and then port into the respective keep.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:51 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Make the oil immune to spells and arrows, like it's already immune to AoE spells, then triple its life.

This way, if you want to take out the oil on a tower/keep, you need to utilize your climbers and/or siege strategically, instead of just walking up to a target and watching 10 casters remove the threat of oil in under 10 seconds.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:21 AM by Johny Rousquille
What a duck is that ?!?!



You can change all the games but if you do nothing in relation to the decrease, your castle will remain empty ...
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:20 AM by Gildar
Sincerely .... i DONT like the ideas .... especially i DONT LIKE AT ALL allow people teleport in a keep with no port during siege .... that kill all keep takes ... and especially out prime time period ... and definitively kills the game ... only a benefit for 8mens pro grps ....

If a zerg of 3 fg inc a keep an 8mens pro simply port in and kill all with help of guards ... and all casual players (most part of BGs) Will quit ... no fun be farmed again and again in open and now also in keep takes

Taking a keep is not simple also now IF defended ... tonight we Hibs in 3 grps have defended successfully vs 70+ albs in Polemo zerg ....

Only idea i can accept is 50/50 att/defenders Rp pool ... IF defenders is more than 10 .... otherwise a single archer defending can take 50% RP pool ??? LOL

Ì can accept the ideas given by Adwaenyth in the bottom quote ...

Adwaenyth wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:44 AM
A few suggestions:

Change the ram damage respective to the amount of rams hitting a door for diminishing returns:

1 ram = 100% damage per ram
2 rams = 75% damage per ram (= 150% damage total)
3 rams = 67% damage per ram (= 201% damage total)
4 rams = 58% damage per ram (=232% damage total)
5 rams = 50% damage per ram (=250% damage total)
6 rams = 44% damage per ram (=264% damage total)

Change the realm point pool: 40% go to each side. 20% go to whoever wins. (Cap it at a certain amount so that no single defender gets all. E.g. if there are 50 attackers and only 1 "defender" then cap the contribution to a max of e.g. 5 times of what each attacker recieves, to leave some incentive to go and defend (e.g. better rps if fewer defenders than attackers))

Use Branches/Snow/Soil as resource for keep repair. Can only be used in the respective realm and work while keep is under siege but the respective item has to be out of combat for at least 30 seconds. Make an exchange rate suitable so that it won't be used to repair the keep indefinitely (and possibly also cap the maximum amount of branches / snow / soil one can have to a single stack).

Alternatively use Branches/Snow/Soil as upgrade resource for a keep. Each time you upgrade with the resource the gates / keep siege equipment gets stronger for a set amount of rp per resource (1 rp every 2 branches/snow/soil spent?). Work in combat unless the part is actively attacked (e.g. you can reinforce the inner door while the outer is being attacked). Will last a maximum of 24 hours. Only work in keeps of the respective realm.

Porting to a keep I think is a considerably bad idea. It removes all incentive for everyone to move across the map. You will have a zerg standing in the relic town, waiting for timer to cool down and then port into the respective keep.

Pls dont make that great mistake ... take care of your playerbase ... casuals are 80 % Of that and dont listen 8mens pro ... or whining people that dry against keep take but dont go defend ... or you gonna kill game
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:31 AM by Freedomcall
What I'm worried about TP is that sometimes underpop realm has to be aggressive to take relic back.
Let's say hib has 6 relics and alb/mid is going aggressive with less numbers each.
In current system, at least hib BG have to run from keep to keep.
So while hib is fighting with albs, at least mid can do something on their own.

But TP regardless of chain might ruin this warfare.
If everyone can just port to keeps all of a sudden, it'll force underpop realm to play more defensively.
And when both BG has similar numbers, BG that initiates keep siege will be always disadvantageous.
So both of them might wait until other BG starts to attack a keep, and this may make both BG play more defensively than now.
This has a possibility of making BG rvr speed slower than now.

Granting more RP is good, but everyone wants to 'win' anyway.
People don't enjoy feeding their opponents.

I'm not saying I'm totally against TP thing, and this might encourage solo/small men to join keep defense.
But because possible side-affect is too obvious, I think devs should think more deeply about this matter.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:33 AM by DJ2000
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
The proposed changes are still very much subject to change.

Goal: Reduce keep fights without defenders, increase keep fights with defenders

How:
1) Less incentives for empty keeps:

2) More incentives to defend
-Increase keep pool rp
-Potentially some oil rework,

3) More time to react to sieges
-Double the minimum distance between siege weapons (catapults)
-Potentially reduce allowed rams per door
-Potentially something to test / see in action: Some way to teleport to keeps under siege
.Variant 1: Branches / Snow / Soil npc in your relic town, 1000 will grant 1 teleport to a home keep. You can teleport this way once every 5 minutes.
.Variant 2: People inside a home keep can turn in soil / branches / snow and every ~200 will allow a realm member to teleport to this keep

1)
Obviously point 1 and 2 go hand in hand, but i really would like to see the Focus on point 2 rather than point 1. Less is fine.
- Taking foreign Keeps/Tower (undefended or not) as an invading Force is considered an "active" movement/action, which is more often than not a catalyst to other movement(s) within the Game. This is overall beneficial to the game, please keep that in mind (no pun intended).
- Low Pop hours will suffer partly from a change like this. Excluding the EU Prime Time, the Server represents itself drastically different. Putting an increasingly staggered RP malus on Keeptakes would still leave some room during lower pop to go for at least 1 Objective(Keep) and getting things started for both sides, while also having enough incentives for both sides.

2)
- Everything that increases Player participation is a good thing, even though i don't really like the fact that the RP gain is accelerated even more, BUT that is the biggest motivation to take/create action i guess.
An even RP pool distribution may be a bit too much though. I do like to award "active" movements, as there would not be a KeepDef without someone trying to take it, but giving more incentives for player interaction is a good thing. RP distribution should be looked closely though.
- Oil Threat: The Oil basically means: 10sec increase in siege time. That's about it. It is powerful and yet it barely poses a threat to a BG as a whole. If anything it's a threat if 1-2 players that don't want to invest the 10 sec to get rid of it, or simply ignore it. The peak Threat level the Oil can ever achieve is when it is "respawning", which is kinda funny. As at that point its more a Threat to run "out", not to run "in" for the opposing Force. Which IS a nice strategic element, but not its intended use to "stop/dissuade invaders from taking this Keep" in the first place.
Ideas to have it be indestructible may go too far, but having the Oil untargetable by normal spells/arrows would help to be a more integral part of siege Warfare. -Volley/Siege would be the only means from outside, this could be an option (GT AoE should also not affect the Oil itself).
-Only melee by busting the (less durable) Gatehouse would be another.
Either way, Oil Damage should be adjusted obviously, but not by much. Maybe in a way that makes Warrios/Armsmen/Heros somewhat desirable in these scenarios to participate as a legit means to withstand the constant Oil damage. Having the Oil Damage being brushed off by every cloth wearing caster is NOT the way to go.

- Oil Useability: Currently its kind of a race, as to who gets to control of the Oil. I have seen players to log from one Toon to another parked exactly next to the Oil to be always the first one, which is a commitment, but this behavior also seems kinda excessive. Increasing the Oil number would be bad though, giving it access to more than 1 player is also bad and would result in constant oil bombardment-> "no bueno".
So how to make more people participate in a Gatehouse Battle when 2 players is basically all u ever need?
Just throwing out some ideas:
- Oil Damage is influenced(reduced) when in the Ram, while it does increased Damage to the Ram itself. (?)
- Oil is like a Negative Mealstrom/GT AoE that hits harder the more people "operate/maintain" it. (?)
- Oil Damage is split into initial Hit + DoT Damage ... (?)
- Oil damage can be fueled by Players with -INSERT-, credit for damage is shared. (?)
- Oil need more people to operate. (?)
- Oil can be Repaired (not Healed) (?)
there are prolly others with better ideas, so don't be afraid to throw them out there.

3)
- Doubling the minimum distance between siege weapons (catapults)? I fail to see how this correlates to "More time to react to sieges".
- Reducing allowed rams per door is a legit way to give more time to react to sieges, .... if there is any (high pop?). If not, its just drags out the Siege. (low pop?)
Make it dependent on the keep/tower level ? Make it dependent on -INSERT- ?
Just a strict number like 3? Or maybe 4? Low level Keeps/Towers barely need a Ram anyway.
Reducing or limiting the numbers is fine, but please (potentially) shorten the Ram "ready-to-start-first-swing" time.
It really shouldn't take 20min Gate1 + 20 min Gate2 to kill the lord in 2 min while nobody showed up to defend. (low pop)
- Some way to teleport to keeps under siege is ..... good and bad at the same time.
+ I like the Idea that Guilds that own the Keep can Port to it (within Homeland), and the Alliance too (if they own a Tower of said keep) as that would reinforce ownership etc.
- I don't like the fact that anyone or everyone can simply show up out of thin air because of some resource/reason, even though the port is broken. Opening a Port to a Keep should be a legitimate threat to the invading Force the defenders can use as a means of pressure or threat. Giving too many port access to a Keep just cheapens the whole tower-port aspect.

All in all i do like the discussion about it and the direction/thought process the Devs are taking with this one.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:39 AM by DJ2000
Adwaenyth wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:44 AM
1 ram = 100% damage per ram
2 rams = 75% damage per ram (= 150% damage total)
3 rams = 67% damage per ram (= 201% damage total)
4 rams = 58% damage per ram (=232% damage total)
5 rams = 50% damage per ram (=250% damage total)
6 rams = 44% damage per ram (=264% damage total)
While the other suggestions were fine, i don't like this one at all! Your numbers would suggest that those Rams are actually filled.
Factor in: not all Rams can or will be filled (- Damage)
Factor in: Some rams decided to be bugged (- Damge)
Factor in: Troll behavior dropping rams to sabotage or just to be /?§&%$ (- Damage)
Sun 6 Sep 2020 9:55 AM by Khallin
In order to have better defense, would it be possible to add some docks / ship destinations inside frontier zones? Not for all keeps but in order to offer an alternative to porting.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 10:21 AM by Shalee
Taking a keep has a single purpose. Getting the relic.
work on relics not keep.

my2cents


--Sheldon--
Sun 6 Sep 2020 11:22 AM by Jiraishin
Hmm what about the classes that aren't good in defending?
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:21 PM by Astaa
I like the idea of porting to under siege keeps using a currency. I just don't think that currency should be branches. Perhaps make it cost 1 claw or something? Something earned from attacking towers.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 1:22 PM by Pzynom
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
The proposed changes are still very much subject to change.

Goal: Reduce keep fights without defenders, increase keep fights with defenders
...
3) More time to react to sieges
Double the minimum distance between siege weapons (catapults)
Potentially reduce allowed rams per door
Potentially something to test / see in action: Some way to teleport to keeps under siege
Variant 1: Branches / Snow / Soil can now be turned in as max level character at some npc in your relic town, turning in 1000 will grant 1 teleport to a home keep that will ignore target keep siege status and teleport chain status to that keep (you still have to own the keep). You can teleport this way once every 5 minutes.
Variant 2: People inside a home keep can turn in soil / branches / snow and every ~200 will allow a realm member to teleport to this keep regardless of siege status and teleport chain status.

Please, only implement a potential Port for realms with equal or less than 2 relics.

Otherwise it will be utilized by the dominating realm, which usually has more resources and active rvr players.

Thanks!
Sun 6 Sep 2020 4:59 PM by Horus
Yea I don't like the teleport idea either.

Maybe an option, if possible would be to add a postern directly into the main central keep and not the CY. This would make it a little easier for defenders but still allow those sieging some tactics to guard that entrance. Right now keeps like Crim you might as well not even try and defend if under attack.

Also, is it me or is the keep treb not repairable...just on a respawn? Anymore people don't even take the treb out. They just leave it damaged and unusable and there is nothing you can do about it.

Also the tagging of guards to keep doors unrepairable to silly as well. Should be you have to at least kill a guard to keep it in flames.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:06 PM by Forlornhope
Horus wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 4:59 PM
Yea I don't like the teleport idea either.

Maybe an option, if possible would be to add a postern directly into the main central keep and not the CY. This would make it a little easier for defenders but still allow those sieging some tactics to guard that entrance. Right now keeps like Crim you might as well not even try and defend if under attack.

Also, is it me or is the keep treb not repairable...just on a respawn? Anymore people don't even take the treb out. They just leave it damaged and unusable and there is nothing you can do about it.

Also the tagging of guards to keep doors unrepairable to silly as well. Should be you have to at least kill a guard to keep it in flames.

You can heal trebs/palintones with any class with a heal
Sun 6 Sep 2020 5:40 PM by Delegator
First of all, I guess we have to assume this applies to keeps, not towers. If the goal is:

Goal: Reduce keep fights without defenders, increase keep fights with defenders


Then you need to give incentive on both sides -- attack and defense. Right now people who shall go nameless roll up RPs for taking towers and undefended (or virtually so) keeps. Giving attackers more rewards for defended keeps in addition to giving defenders more rewards is a start.

But, the reason people often don't try to defend keeps isn't just about the time needed to get there, but about the possibility of getting in. Unless you are some kind of lunatic with 11 level 50s (like me) you don't have characters logged out in every keep that could be attacked. And with some keeps such as Berk, Crimsoned and Not having no posterns....well why bother making the run only to be stunned and killed before entering the keep?

In that regard the teleport idea has some merit, but I worry about abuse. Would this only be for keeps that are under attack, for example? Would it be only for home realm keeps? For example, we had a few relic gate defenses last week in Midgard, where part of the defense was cutting ports so that Hibs couldn't immediately get back into Fensalir and keep pressuring the gate. If this teleport existed, then how do you actually cut a port? And why would anybody bother taking a tower instead of going for the surprise factor of getting the outer down on the main keep?
Sun 6 Sep 2020 6:23 PM by Bobbahunter
Can you make postern doors attackable with same Or more HPs as front gate Only attackable once oil is down.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:07 PM by Delegator
A suggestion that would likely be much simpler than any teleporter stuff: why not just buff towers, so that it takes longer to cut a port? If towers were, say, twice as hard per level in terms of door HP and lord difficulty, then there would be much more time for people to port to a keep that was potentially getting its port cut. Maybe that's too high a leap, but you see the point. If the goal is to allow people to get a keep that is under attack, well, keep doors are already tougher and attackers need to take down 2 of them. But a port can be cut awfully quickly on a tower.
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:37 PM by Bobbahunter
Or all keep Towers must be taken to break port
Mon 7 Sep 2020 3:30 AM by a1chemi
Bobbahunter wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 7:37 PM
Or all keep Towers must be taken to break port

Or somewhere in between. Even one additional tower take would add significant time for warning and port for defense. Devs could see how it works, and increase if necessary.

This would also open up strategies for BG leaders to split their groups and try to take towers simultaneously.
Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:01 AM by Sepplord
Strikejk wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Sep 2020 12:07 AM
Variant 3: Currently keeps can be claimed by guilds but that grants only minor benefits for that guild/alliance besides enabling the keep to lvl up. I believe it would be a nice addition if people could hand in soil/branches/snow of a certain amount* which enables them to port to a keep owned by their guild or alliance* regardless of siege status and teleport chain status.
This would allow guilds/alliances* to quickly respond to an attack on one of their keeps and prevents the enemy from ninja-assaulting the empty keep before sufficient reinforcements arrive. It would also open up strategic advantages to claim certain keeps by certain guilds/alliances and last but not least strengthen the pride in owning a keep and defending it for your realm!

sounds nice on paper until the meta shifts towards the whole server simply being in "THE" alliance, because everything else is inefficient
Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:11 AM by imweasel
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
The proposed changes are still very much subject to change.

Goal: Reduce keep fights without defenders, increase keep fights with defenders

How:
1) Less incentives for empty keeps:
Reduce base rp for taking foreign keeps

2) More incentives to defend
Increase keep pool rp
Defenders always get 50% of the pool and attackers always get 50% of the pool regardless of siege outcome (subject to some limitations to avoid someone just running by / sole suicider to collect the full 50% or a single defender vs 100)
Potentially some oil rework, examples could include making the damage unavoidable but reducing the damage while making it a group effort of the defenders (e. g. some material gathering) instead of a winner / first controller takes all

3) More time to react to sieges
Double the minimum distance between siege weapons (catapults)
Potentially reduce allowed rams per door
Potentially something to test / see in action: Some way to teleport to keeps under siege
Variant 1: Branches / Snow / Soil can now be turned in as max level character at some npc in your relic town, turning in 1000 will grant 1 teleport to a home keep that will ignore target keep siege status and teleport chain status to that keep (you still have to own the keep). You can teleport this way once every 5 minutes.
Variant 2: People inside a home keep can turn in soil / branches / snow and every ~200 will allow a realm member to teleport to this keep regardless of siege status and teleport chain status.

I'm kind of curious on why any changes need to be made to taking keeps/towers. Just because? The "dev team" wants to change things up? The sparrow flew at midnight? The reason given seems to be more of cause I say so.

What empirical data do you have that indicates any change is necessary?

Change can be good IF it's a good change. Changing something and thinking it's going to be a good change just because a change is made can be a very bad idea.
Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:19 AM by Sepplord
in general i like the idea, but the teleporting seems a bit too much...

people need to run where they want to fight, and can get killed on the way. For me it seems as if that is one of the core principles that allows for DAoCs pretty unique open-world RvR gameplay.
Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:26 AM by gotwqqd
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:19 AM
in general i like the idea, but the teleporting seems a bit too much...

people need to run where they want to fight, and can get killed on the way. For me it seems as if that is one of the core principles that allows for DAoCs pretty unique open-world RvR gameplay.
This
Mon 7 Sep 2020 8:50 AM by Lynee
I love keep defenses, however I find it fairly hard for the moment, so I welcome any change.
For me, it pretty much boils down to a numbers game at the moment, often the number of attackers is so overwhelming it makes a defense attempt pretty rough, so evening out the disparity between attacker/defender numbers is probably the best idea.
Beefing up the incentives to go and defend - I'm all for it, if there's extra rewards - even better. However, I'd suggest tweaking some more mechanisms which impact defense.

Siege engines:

Catapults: Being pelted by catapults, volley (not so much anymore) and gtae makes defense really hard. One reason for this is, that the ram driver can scroll out and get a birds eye view of the keep and put down ground targets with a simple mouse click. People assist that - voila, all defenders are scurrying like mice and duck for cover.
This gives a huge advantage to the attackers, especially in keeps with large open spaces. If everyone would have to fiddle with their ground targets themselves and prod in the dark for a juicy spot, or stealthers/climbers have to expose themselves on the walls to set a well-definded target, the defenders would actually have a chance to intervene and hamper the attackers.
Instead of decreasing the number of possible catapults I would get rid of this superior vision first and see what happens. Setting a GT for attackers shouldn't be a granted success without no risk of life or failure involved - the defenders all have to do it manually.
I know a change like that will make attacks on keeps really hard, especially for the realms which aren't set up for siege very well, but I also feel that the defenders should have an advantage, or at least even ground when fiddling with GTs.
A reduction of catapults is in my opinion not necessary, I find it's viable to try and take down a door with catapults, also to destroy the outer oil. If the numbers of catapults outside of keeps is getting restricted, please keep in mind not to destoy the viable tactic of defending a relic gate with catapults.

Rams: limiting rams to 3 per door is fine with me (as if Albion would ever occupy more! I'm joking ), it used to be limited on live and it definitely was a factor on siege duration. So yes, I'm all for it. Also, I think the savagery pot system is good.

Oil: As it is now it's mostly one shot and then it's gone, either it's golden or a total bust. I feel it's kind of fine, as it can be healed etc, however maybe the pop time can be changed so people have to be more on their toes to take it out (maybe even dependent on attacker numbers, although that may be impossible to put in). Or given more HP, or making it being healed more easily. But in essence, I think it's fine, especially if defenders can put up pressure from the ramparts and keep it alive longer by suppressing the ones trying to kill it.


Tasks:

While the flag tasks are quite popular and they can have an impact on sieges especially when both take place in the same zone, they can also suck the pool of defenders dry when it's just easier to jog around a flag in Pennine than trying to charge in through Beno postern to defend.
There used to be keep tasks on Phoenix - why not bring them back. Also, why not make task order random to create more activity instead of calculated afks in set zones?
On live servers there used to be guild quests: take tower XYZ, kill 25 hibs/mids/albs, these quests were randomly assigned for the requesting guild. Could also be an incentive to engage into the realm war.


Teleport changes:

I am not a fan of the „Teleport for currency“ thing, if you drop the ball and lose towers you should not have teleport. If a keep has a postern door it's really not all that complicated to get in with some practise on any class, my success rate there as a visible is around 75% I'd estimate, strongly dependent on the number of attackers.
However, I do feel that towers, especially when they are relatively freshly taken (talking about lvl 2-6) are really hard to take back with a small force, which takes a big tactical element out of the game. You can't really send off a rag-tag group or a well-set smallman to take a tower in any reasonable time, you always have to operate with a bigger force. It was often the case that the door melted in no time to, say, 3 scouts, and then we stabbed at the lord for several minutes. Since distance isn't really an issue in NF (with speed 6 you can cross a zone in approx. 2 min) any tower retake attempt by less than a zerg is easily foiled by a halfway organized group.
My suggestion would be to lessen the hp on the lords when they are red, when they are purple they should be hard to take. To prevent tower farming for rps: just give rps only for taking lvl 10 towers and only grant rvr participation for lower ones.
This would offer even for smaller forces to have an impact on a siege instead of just running into a keep, hunker down in lord room while dodging gtae until the door falls. It could also disperse large attacking forces a little, since groups/small men can be split off the zerg to watch over towers or to retake them in case they got captured.
Mon 7 Sep 2020 3:23 PM by darthenron
I think the bigger issue of zerg size should be addressed to help even out the keep action. When we have 120 hibs attacking a keep with no port, it’s hard to even attempt to get people in to defend.

I like the idea of TP, but what if there was a passive buff/debuff that would help get people inside easier.
(Like a HP/resist/speed increase that wouldn’t be too OP)

Maybe have a Purple NPC defender that people can pay snow to summon from another keep to help lead a charge towards a nearby keep. Something that would give AoE speed increase and cast AoE snares/debuffs. If we are able to get the NPC to the castle alive, it would summon defenders near the post door to defend for 5 mins. Maybe even give the defenders feathers for reward. (Attackers would get feathers for killing the NPC before reaching the castle)
Mon 7 Sep 2020 7:52 PM by ProteusWest
1) Change Porting Rules for Keeps

If you have 0 or 1 relics, it requires three towers to cut ports on your keeps. If you have 2-3 relics, it requires two towers to cut ports on your keeps. If you have 4-6 relics, it requires one tower to cut ports to the keep. This means that those with more relics need to be more vigilant in their defense, and those who are missing most of their relics will have more time to get to their keeps. Requiring multiple towers means that BG leaders need to determine whether it's safer to keep their battle group consolidated or whether they should go for a quick strike on a keep by splitting their forces to hit multiple towers at once.

2) Buff Keep Repair

Defenders should not be able to repair keeps that are under attack, but right now, a small group of attackers can indefinitely delay repairs and RP bonuses for defenders by attacking a guard or shooting a door once, resetting the 5 minute timer. As someone else has said, make it so that a guard must be killed to reset the timer or the door must be attacked by at least 5 attackers for a duration of 15 seconds, or any siege equipment.

3) Incentivize Keep Defense and Attack Without Allowing Unlimited Keep Porting

A lot of people have said this already, but it would be a huge mistake to allow automatic ports for currency to a keep. Change porting rules to give defenders more time, but don't do away with the supply line completely. It would favor realms with higher RvR populations, it would destroy strategic play, and it would make relics almost impossible to take. Ideas to give defenders and attackers more RP are great because keep and tower defenses are a lot of fun for people, but right now, it's better for people to take undefended things than it is to actually engage in a siege fight. If it was equally valuable to defend and attack keeps with defenders, that would change, so I am happy to see that as a direction you're looking in.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 2:14 AM by Helwyr
ProteusWest wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Sep 2020 7:52 PM
1) Change Porting Rules for Keeps

If you have 0 or 1 relics, it requires three towers to cut ports on your keeps. If you have 2-3 relics, it requires two towers to cut ports on your keeps. If you have 4-6 relics, it requires one tower to cut ports to the keep. This means that those with more relics need to be more vigilant in their defense, and those who are missing most of their relics will have more time to get to their keeps. Requiring multiple towers means that BG leaders need to determine whether it's safer to keep their battle group consolidated or whether they should go for a quick strike on a keep by splitting their forces to hit multiple towers at once.

I think it would be a mistake to make having fewer relics be a strategic advantage like this suggestion. Realms should always want to take as many relics as they can get, and hold onto those they have. The idea of requiring more towers taken to cut port isn't bad in itself it's the tying it to relics held that detrimental IMO to the core gameplay of DAoC.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 6:14 AM by Gildar
darthenron wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Sep 2020 3:23 PM
I think the bigger issue of zerg size should be addressed to help even out the keep action. When we have 120 hibs attacking a keep with no port, it’s hard to even attempt to get people in to defend.

I like the idea of TP, but what if there was a passive buff/debuff that would help get people inside easier.
(Like a HP/resist/speed increase that wouldn’t be too OP)

Maybe have a Purple NPC defender that people can pay snow to summon from another keep to help lead a charge towards a nearby keep. Something that would give AoE speed increase and cast AoE snares/debuffs. If we are able to get the NPC to the castle alive, it would summon defenders near the post door to defend for 5 mins. Maybe even give the defenders feathers for reward. (Attackers would get feathers for killing the NPC before reaching the castle)

I disagree sorry.
You all have in mind the numbers of EU primetime, but daoc is up 24/24 and there are many players logging out of EU prime, when ppl online is under 600 total (200 x realm).

Hib BG in that time is 2 fg ... sometimes 3 ....
You cant make too hard attacking keeps /tower ... already now its almost impossible to take a keep in 3 fg if there are 4/8 defenders in.

Hold in mind that this game runs 24 hours ... dont write suggestion based only on EU prime numbers pls ... there are also others
Tue 8 Sep 2020 7:43 AM by IdiamVonGawaine
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
Goal: Reduce keep fights without defenders, increase keep fights with defenders

How:
1) Less incentives for empty keeps:
Reduce base rp for taking foreign keeps

First, players have no control over the number of other players online at any given time. Second, the RP rewards for taking keeps without defenders is already trash as it is now. This solution is more detrimental than the problem it's supposed to address.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
2) More incentives to defend

Creating incentives to defend is the course of action that should be pursued. Creating incentives to increase RvR is ALWAYS the course of action that should be pursued.

Some issues:

Keep and tower design
NOBODY wants to get farmed in a keep or tower, which is why so many players aren't willing to defend their keeps. Combine that with the relatively ineffective keep defenses in place such as:
- Siege towers that are out of siege and arrow range of the keeps they are supposed to support
-Siege weapons that have limited range and limited targeting
- Terrible LoS for keep defenders in some keeps, and in some circumstances NO line of sight for defenders.
-The current repair system is absolutely horrid and prevents players from patching up their keeps in a timely manner.

Possible solutions: Design keeps so that defenders have plenty of murder holes to defend. Design keeps so that all siege weapons may be put into use regardless of the direction of attack. Design keeps so that all corners and internal towers are mutually supporting and within archer/caster range for defense and offense. Design supporting towers so that they are within archer/casting range of keeps for defensive support. Reduce repair timers so that repairs can be initiated in a timely manner for defenders.

Keep access under siege
- Most are unwilling to try and reinforce a keep under siege as they'll just get farmed in the process

Possible solutions: Disable teleporting to home keeps only after a supporting tower has been taken AND after the external keep door has been breached.

Lackluster desire to defend keeps is certainly an issue.

Possible solutions: Underdog bonus for foreign keep defense. Underdog bonus plus home defense bonus for defending home keeps.

Regardless of the choices, I would urge the direction that's taken is one that motivates more players to RvR, rather than punish those that already do just because they don't have a reliable opposing force.
Tue 8 Sep 2020 1:35 PM by gotwqqd
IdiamVonGawaine wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Sep 2020 7:43 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
Goal: Reduce keep fights without defenders, increase keep fights with defenders

How:
1) Less incentives for empty keeps:
Reduce base rp for taking foreign keeps

First, players have no control over the number of other players online at any given time. Second, the RP rewards for taking keeps without defenders is already trash as it is now. This solution is more detrimental than the problem it's supposed to address.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Sep 2020 10:53 PM
2) More incentives to defend

Creating incentives to defend is the course of action that should be pursued. Creating incentives to increase RvR is ALWAYS the course of action that should be pursued.

Some issues:

Keep and tower design
NOBODY wants to get farmed in a keep or tower, which is why so many players aren't willing to defend their keeps. Combine that with the relatively ineffective keep defenses in place such as:
- Siege towers that are out of siege and arrow range of the keeps they are supposed to support
-Siege weapons that have limited range and limited targeting
- Terrible LoS for keep defenders in some keeps, and in some circumstances NO line of sight for defenders.
-The current repair system is absolutely horrid and prevents players from patching up their keeps in a timely manner.

Possible solutions: Design keeps so that defenders have plenty of murder holes to defend. Design keeps so that all siege weapons may be put into use regardless of the direction of attack. Design keeps so that all corners and internal towers are mutually supporting and within archer/caster range for defense and offense. Design supporting towers so that they are within archer/casting range of keeps for defensive support. Reduce repair timers so that repairs can be initiated in a timely manner for defenders.

Keep access under siege
- Most are unwilling to try and reinforce a keep under siege as they'll just get farmed in the process

Possible solutions: Disable teleporting to home keeps only after a supporting tower has been taken AND after the external keep door has been breached.

Lackluster desire to defend keeps is certainly an issue.

Possible solutions: Underdog bonus for foreign keep defense. Underdog bonus plus home defense bonus for defending home keeps.

Regardless of the choices, I would urge the direction that's taken is one that motivates more players to RvR, rather than punish those that already do just because they don't have a reliable opposing force.
This
Targeting and casting from walls sucks
Tue 8 Sep 2020 7:18 PM by Messerjockel
I did not read through the complete thread but every keep must have postern that defenders can get in

Flup, hib
Tue 8 Sep 2020 8:23 PM by Gildar
Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Sep 2020 7:18 PM
I did not read through the complete thread but every keep must have postern that defenders can get in

Flup, hib

This.

NO tp on keeps under siege if tp was broken taking towers. As someone write before, in DAOC you have to run trought the frontier to reach a keep and risk an inc along the road ... it is called RvR
Mon 14 Sep 2020 11:20 AM by Valaraukar
Max 3 rams on doors and increase distance between catas outside the keep. No changes to Oil, or maybe just reduce its damage and make it more difficult to destroy so it can stay up a little longer but does not instakill people below it.

Increase RPs done by killing players (both for defenders and attackers) in keep/tower zone (for example 200% rp value per kill in Keeps and 150% in towers). Increase also RPs done by healing and resurrecting ppl in keeps/towers (yeah, Healers definetly need some love in sieges, as long as stuns and mezzs do not give a single RP).

Lower RP done by simply taking keeps/towers, you can also leave only the "take keeps" task reward.

Greatly increase feathers/claws made in sieges (for both defenders and attackers), this would greatly improve the keep fights imho.

Improve the los issues with GTAOE, pets and so on, do everything is possible to fix them because they are really really annoying.
Tue 15 Sep 2020 6:51 AM by Noashakra
Allowing people to tp inside a keep after a tower is taken is a really bad idea. It will make keeps impossible to take.
Tue 15 Sep 2020 11:31 AM by Gildar
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Sep 2020 11:20 AM
Max 3 rams on doors and increase distance between catas outside the keep. No changes to Oil, or maybe just reduce its damage and make it more difficult to destroy so it can stay up a little longer but does not instakill people below it.

Increase RPs done by killing players (both for defenders and attackers) in keep/tower zone (for example 200% rp value per kill in Keeps and 150% in towers). Increase also RPs done by healing and resurrecting ppl in keeps/towers (yeah, Healers definetly need some love in sieges, as long as stuns and mezzs do not give a single RP).

Lower RP done by simply taking keeps/towers, you can also leave only the "take keeps" task reward.

Greatly increase feathers/claws made in sieges (for both defenders and attackers), this would greatly improve the keep fights imho.

Improve the los issues with GTAOE, pets and so on, do everything is possible to fix them because they are really really annoying.

Agree on most part
Thu 24 Sep 2020 6:05 AM by Lynee
Since keep changes go in on Monday can we get a recap on what will actually be changed based on this feedback? Thanks
Thu 24 Sep 2020 7:08 AM by Sepplord
changes are coming monday?
Mon 28 Sep 2020 10:44 AM by Vindicator
With a big change to keep warfare like this the relics need to be reset.
Mon 28 Sep 2020 10:46 AM by swap89
Imo
Want change that?.
Reset the relic.
Only way now for take to Alb a relic Is with ninja raid and open keep in 2-3 Min...
With this new things Is more Easy defende a relic and a keep...
U want make more hard take It and the keep?...ok...but se start all from the same status...not albs with 4 and other with 1 relic
Mon 28 Sep 2020 10:53 AM by swap89
With ur change take a keep with this situation of zerg Is impossible.
For all realm.
The teleport only with all tower must stay...or its impossible take It .
Ram?...if a BG have the ability to drop a lot of RAM and full It why change?...and i can Say its not so Easy fill the RAM because people dont listen.
Mon 28 Sep 2020 11:14 AM by Sepplord
the changeannouncement doesn't mention teleporting, only fewer rams
is teleporting to sieged keeps possible now?

And the reason to limit rams is quite obvious isn't it?
It puts a soft cap on time to take down doors, aka gives more reactiontime to go defend something
Mon 28 Sep 2020 12:44 PM by Uthred
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 11:14 AM
the changeannouncement doesn't mention teleporting, only fewer rams
is teleporting to sieged keeps possible now?

- first round of the announced keep changes is in
-- the base rp (just the reward for killing the lord) for taking foreign keeps has been reduced
-- the base rp (just the reward for killing the lord) for retaking home keeps has been increased
-- the winner and looser side of a keep fight now gets 50% of the rp pool (usually, circumstances can make it fall back to the old behavior)
-- the amount of rps that goes into the rp pool for keep fights has been increased
-- there is now a ram cap of 2 per door
Mon 28 Sep 2020 12:55 PM by Sepplord
yeah i was replying to the person before me, not asking why there aren't teleports (but since i couldn't actually check if it was just left out i added the question)

but i see why you understood my post differently
Mon 28 Sep 2020 1:03 PM by CowwoC
Uthred wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 12:44 PM
-- the winner and looser side of a keep fight now gets 50% of the rp pool (usually, circumstances can make it fall back to the old behavior)

spell it with us:
Tue 29 Sep 2020 10:49 AM by Ploen
My first feedback for the first changes are:
1. It can take a while (maybe 20min) to open a door with defenders in it. IF the both rams are not fully loaded with people.
2. If you get both rams full with players they dont last until the door is open. (with 2-3 defender grps or more)

I believe the changes makes defending more rewarding. But raiding only harder.

I got good amount of rps for raiding keeps sometimes not always even with defenders.
But towers give more rps now with defenders. Was that also a change included or only keeps?

Thats what i noticed the first EU prime time rvr with the changes.

(Sorry if there are spelling or grammer issues, english is not my first language)
Tue 29 Sep 2020 11:46 AM by swap89
To be honest...
Take a keep before change Need 2x people...sometime 3x people...u cant take a keep with 50 people with 20-30 defender insider.
Only way was a rapid raid with a lot of RAM all full.
Now u cant do that.
How now u can expect to take a relic ti albs?...impossible...2 realm can make pressure ti albs,but they have Number for defend 2 both keep...for example defend hurbury from mid,kill them and run to renaris to kill hib.because take a keep Is slow with 2 RAM and that give to defender the time...they can take a coffee in the while too...
This situation advantage only the realm more populated...
Instead to find a solution for balance,they advantage a realm with 4 relic...and when u ask atleast to start to same situation so reset relic,they call u QQ...
The people on this server are not honest...when hib dominated like albs now ,i talk with polemo for know when he come back from holiday...because It s not fun don't have enemy to fight...
And now i think the albs don't have that fun too...
Now u can call me qq i don't care...this is my opinion
Tue 29 Sep 2020 4:57 PM by tech27
Very curious on what the data shows after the keep fight changes are.

I'm assuming the goal is to encourage more participation in keep fights. Increasing the defended keep RP sounds like a good start, but I wonder what the data tells us.

IMO, keep takes should actually be easier, rather than harder to encourage more of them.
Wed 30 Sep 2020 9:01 AM by Valaraukar
swap89 wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Sep 2020 11:46 AM
To be honest...
Take a keep before change Need 2x people...sometime 3x people...u cant take a keep with 50 people with 20-30 defender insider.
Only way was a rapid raid with a lot of RAM all full.
Now u cant do that.
How now u can expect to take a relic ti albs?...impossible...2 realm can make pressure ti albs,but they have Number for defend 2 both keep...for example defend hurbury from mid,kill them and run to renaris to kill hib.because take a keep Is slow with 2 RAM and that give to defender the time...they can take a coffee in the while too...
This situation advantage only the realm more populated...
Instead to find a solution for balance,they advantage a realm with 4 relic...and when u ask atleast to start to same situation so reset relic,they call u QQ...
The people on this server are not honest...when hib dominated like albs now ,i talk with polemo for know when he come back from holiday...because It s not fun don't have enemy to fight...
And now i think the albs don't have that fun too...
Now u can call me qq i don't care...this is my opinion

Totally agree with you. But, tbh, I have to ask you NOW how does it feel to be the underdog? Not funny uh? Maybe now you understand what we (Mids) were saying 2 months ago. For us the situation has not changed at all, even if we are regularly organizing BGs in the afternoon, and we can get some results then Albion comes with 3x ppl in BG and nothing can be done about it. Now also Hib is suffering from this situation and you can feel it by yourself


Regarding the keep changes:

1- Absolutely need a Relic reset or they will forever stay in Albion

2- 2 Rams for keeps are too few. Make them 2 rams for towers and 3 for Keeps

3- Give heals and ress in sieged keeps more RPs. We need more healers in siege/defense and they must be rewarded to get them involved. Playing an healer in a keep or tower is one of the most boring situation of the game. You just stay there, try to avoid interrupt and spam heals while you regret not having deleted that damn toon before

4- Give MORE RPS for fights during sieges. Just not increase the pool, give more RPs for each kill, or increase the siege kill task rewards. This will lure people to actually fight for keeps, not only take them in the fastest way that is when they are empty.
Wed 30 Sep 2020 9:27 AM by swap89
I had already experienced this situation in the past.
I'm not complaining about the numbers, I knew it was like this when we lost the relics and polemo is back from vacation.
in hibernia we have numbers equal to albion only when we have the relics. or we are less and less.
but that's not a problem, sometimes I tried to do ninja raids on the renaris to get ours, and I would keep trying until we could.
When a bg mid was active you could both put pressure and do something.
I'm just saying that with these new systems, the game is unequaled and frozen for eternity.
Albion have the numbers and a bg leader who plays often, you can't get a keep quickly, and even if you attack in two realms at the same time they have the possibility of killing one realm first then the other being so slow.
They want to make these changes? ... ok ...
but we all start from the same situation and reset the relics ... and see what happens
Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:28 AM by Lokkjim
Maybe, just maybe, the realm timer should be increased from four hours? I'm just saying...
Fri 2 Oct 2020 1:31 PM by keen
there needs to be sth done to encourage playing in lower populated realm. the 1:1 bonus is not sufficient. daoc is winner takes it all, if u cant kill someone there is no bonus rp at all.
lowest populated realms should get rp boosts so it is always more worth playing the underdog realm. this is self stabilising. since server start it is benefitial to join the biggest realm, this is skewing realm population instead of balancing it out.

10% melee bonus dmg for alb currently for being the strongest realm.
Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:02 PM by Baker
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 1:31 PM
there needs to be sth done to encourage playing in lower populated realm. the 1:1 bonus is not sufficient. daoc is winner takes it all, if u cant kill someone there is no bonus rp at all.
lowest populated realms should get rp boosts so it is always more worth playing the underdog realm. this is self stabilising. since server start it is benefitial to join the biggest realm, this is skewing realm population instead of balancing it out.

10% melee bonus dmg for alb currently for being the strongest realm.


when you log on type /u and then /task

tadaaa
Fri 2 Oct 2020 4:05 PM by keen
Baker wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:02 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 1:31 PM
there needs to be sth done to encourage playing in lower populated realm. the 1:1 bonus is not sufficient. daoc is winner takes it all, if u cant kill someone there is no bonus rp at all.
when you log on type /u and then /task
tadaaa
i quoted me again, 1:1 as /u bonus is not sufficient due to reaons of my quote
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Planned Changes or the latest topics