Questions about Quickness and style damage (Classic/Uthgard formula? Or adjusted for Phoenix?)

Has anyone ran Quickness tests on Phoenix?

Is it like live/uthgard, where +quick has the effect of lowered front-load damage? (it makes you swing more, but adjusts it so you are the same net dps):

https://www.uthgard.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44573&sid=99dbe8e1b3e2cda24fc3699a2d4560c3

Auto-attack benefits in a net dps increase with the old QUI formula, but styles do less per style as the QUI stat used to be in the style damage formula:

STYLE_DAMAGE = (STYLE_BASE + (SPEC - STYLE_LEVEL) * STYLE_GROWTH)
* SWING_SPEED
* DAMAGE_MODIFIER / 10
+ BASE_DAMAGE * TOA_STYLE_BONUSSTYLE_DAMAGE = (STYLE_BASE + (SPEC - STYLE_LEVEL) * STYLE_GROWTH)
* SWING_SPEED
* DAMAGE_MODIFIER / 10
+ BASE_DAMAGE * TOA_STYLE_BONUS

(https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage) -

which would imply the lower your swing speed, the smaller you hit per style
meaning Quickness is a bad stat to have in RvR when styles tend to be spaced out and you want as much per swing as possible when you get in range or burst as a team and
also bad in pve if style damage is a fixed end cost, as you have to perform more styles (aka more end expenditure) for the same damage, as a non-styled auto attack is very rare

Edit: I ran some tests of my own with a level 50 kobold skald on a training dummy level 50:

With the self buff potion having haste + 50 quick (I cancelled the str part of buff for the tests):

144 on dummy with haste+50 quick from buff pot (style was axe style Havoc)

150 with just +50 quick and haste removed

157 with neither buff for quick or haste present

Doesn't this mean QUI is a net zero stat? You're doing the same damage, but doing it over more swings vs less swings - if smaller and softer hits were best, why not use fast weapons in RvR?

Tue 1 Sep 2020 8:23 PM by gromet12

Quickness's magic is in base dmg which is a large portion of styled damage. Quickness does not lower the base melee dmg while allowing for faster attacks, if you did base attacks you would've seen they are the same, yet the more quickness you have the faster you swing. Melee styles are best simplified as a DPS addition to base melee dmg, your actual swing speed is taken into account along with the growth rate of the style to determine the + to the base melee dmg. Though styled dmg is lowered when you swing because it is taken into account your class's actual swing speed (quickness, haste), the base melee dmg is the same and is the largest portion of styled dmg. Do you care about losing 7 dmg a style in your example while swinging the a 5.6s weapon .5secs faster? Just some basic math using a 5.6 delay weapon would have you buffed @ 3.97secs vs unbuffed 4.5secs since most fights last less than 20secs, that is 5 swings buffed vs 4 swings w/o the dex/quick buff. I'll take that "7" dmg loss for that extra swing in 20secs (your 5th swing is 22.5 unbuffed in dex/quick).

Tue 1 Sep 2020 8:23 PM by Bradekes

xenow wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 7:31 PM
144 on dummy with haste+50 quick from buff pot (style was axe style Havoc)

150 with just +50 quick and haste removed

157 with neither buff for quick or haste present

Doesn't this mean QUI is a net zero stat? You're doing the same damage, but doing it over more swings vs less swings - if smaller and softer hits were best, why not use fast weapons in RvR?

So let's do some math.. your dmg with no attack speed buff or qui was 157.

You gained 10% attack speed from 50 quickness

You gained 14%(if i remember right) from haste buff

I'm going to give your weapon a speed of 4.6 as I don't know you actual weapon speed.

157/4.6 = 34.13dps

150/(4.6×0.9) = 36.23dps with quickness buff only

144/(4.6×0.9×0.86) = 40.44dps with quickness & haste

40.44/34.13 = 1.185 so 18.5% dps increase from quickness+haste

Wed 2 Sep 2020 7:19 AM by Sepplord

Thanks for the explanations, if noone minds i wanted to add Celerity to the question (since it seems OPs initial question is answered thoroughly right?)
Is celerity "just" another haste, that stacks with normal haste? Or can swingspeed actually go below swing-cap of 1,5second with celerity?

Aka. Someone who has capped swingspeed without celerity, gets celerity.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 11:38 AM by Bradekes

There's no way to go under 1.5 swing speed.

Celerity would be calculated as an additional attack speed reduction and as far as I know is not additive with neither quickness nor haste. The difference with celerity is that there is no style damage reduction beyond what your quickness or haste has applied.

Each point of quickness passed 50(50 and under is 0%) is 0.2% attack speed.

Haste is multplicative with quickness.

So if you wanted to figure out your atkspd if you had 200 quickness, 17% haste, 24% celerity and you were swinging a 4.6spd weapon you just take the amount hasted -100 then, ÷100, ×weapon spd.

Quickness: 200-50=150, 150×0.2=30, 100-30=70, 70÷100=0.7

Haste: 100-17=83, 83÷100=0.83

Celerity: 100-24=76, 76÷100=0.76

Weapon speed 4.6

Quickness: 4.6×0.7=3.2
×Haste: 3.2×0.83=2.6
×Celerity: 3.2×0.76=2.03

So you'd be swinging your 4.6 spd weapon at 2.03spd but dealing damage as 4.6 hasted to 2.6spd

And do the same again if you have Mastery of Arms which I am not sure if MoArms is haste or celerity but I assume a haste effect.

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If you are using a very fast weapon and your swing speed would be dropping lower than 1.5speed you'd lose dps.

Let's say you're using a 2.4spd weapon and have 250quickness and 20%haste.

2.4×0.6=1.44
1.44×0.8=1.15

You'd be swinging at 1.5spd but dealing the dmg of 2.4 weapon hasted to 1.15spd. Celerity would have no affect on you at this point neither positive nor negative.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 12:08 PM by

gruenesschaf

The style damage is calculated after the swing speed cap of 1.5 has been applied, ie having too much haste / qui is not a damage loss here.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 12:31 PM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 12:08 PM
The style damage is calculated after the swing speed cap of 1.5 has been applied, ie having too much haste / qui is not a damage loss here.

That is good to know 👍

You'd still be losing damage by not swinging a slower weapon at 1.5 spd though right? It would be cool to add to base/style dmg and proc chance inversely passed the cap to really have no damage lose.