The dire state of 8 man RvR - Phoenix Freeshard

Hi,

I am not sure if a thread like this already exists or not, but I want to bring the devs' attention to the situation 8 man RvR currently is in.
I know people like to bash on the 8v8 community as being exclusive ("elitist"

, having double standards ("dont zerg us, but let us zerg the solos"

or telling other people what to do ("dont add on my fight"

. I am not writing here to tell you how to play, or to enforce a certain way of playing. Play however the hell you want to spend your time. Zerg me, add me, or don't. Whatever makes you happy.

A Daoc Freeshard is probably healthiest, when diverse ways to play the game are possible and viable - but exactly THAT is the point: 8v8 manning is currently NOT. It doesn't exist. It is not viable. It is often not even possible. There is nobody on Midgard that plays as 8man and looks for 8man fights. There are only very few on Hibernia, and some on Albion. Even I, who would prefer to do 8v8, adapted to roam in smallman and play "unclean" XvX, because 8v8 doesn't really exist and that's the only form of action that is going on all the time. People are probably tired of the situation in the RvR zones and that's one of the reasons they dont form 8mans. All I am asking is to enable a beautiful way of playing without removing whatever the hell other people want to play.

Being a bit offtopic, I have to say that I really enjoyed the "Free for All" pvp events, and I hope we can have those on a frequent schedule (twice a month, pretty please?)

Let me end my post with a quote that I said during the last week to my people in Discord:
"Everybody is in the RvR zones, but somehow nobody is playing."

Sat 22 Sep 2018 12:09 PM by Hector

Dve,

Well thought out post. I think though that this is an overreaction to a small population size and small sample size. You are extrapolating your findings in a roughly 300-400ish person beta to assume that when we launch with say 2k+ players (and I expect 3-4k) people are only going to zerg. It's just not going to happen. There will no doubt be a concentration of players in the task zone, but otherwise I foresee the portal zones (emain, hadrian, odins) being packed with full groups roaming mostly indepedently. Remember what uthgard launch was like? You had several 8mans from each realm independently running around shortly after they were 50 and temp'd. The reason you don't see that now is because the large majority of those players are not playing the beta. If you want to think about the demographic of player who is playing RIGHT NOW then I would argue its no surprise they aren't 8v8ing, because these are mostly casual zerg surfers.

You've got your 2 8v8 styled groups on hib, your/Raunz pug on alb and the Keeibs group, and the occasional mid eu 8man but thats it. Many of the US guilds are just not playing right now, mine included. This will change slightly for i50 and even moreso on the launch. Just be patient and test bugs so we can inch closer to launch.

Sat 22 Sep 2018 1:30 PM by Ceen

So what exactly is your point. Either Hadrians or Odins is zerg free 24/7. Feel free to roam.
The problem is more that there is one competative grp each realm most of the time and the rest is either "improving" (losing and coming back) or quitting.
Most of them kinda tend to rather join the brain dead task rather than handing out more free RP.
Instead of set grps farming them they farm tasks and set grps are dead since no newcomers joining the "fun" ^^

It was the same on Uthgard 1.0 in winter there were several grps showing up and during summer most good grps said goodbye till autumn since there was maybe 1 grp worth fighting and the rest boring RP farm.

Sat 22 Sep 2018 1:39 PM by Isavyr

Dve,
I think your post is contradictory. You invite people to play "however the hell they want", but then bemoan the fact that most players aren't choosing to 8v8--your preferred style of RvR.

8v8 is already the normal state of this game. The devs appeared to have taken your advice, and made other forms of RvR viable. But this appears to upset you, because players aren't choosing to do 8v8. Seeing as 8-mans are allowed to arrange their fights in the same frontier, the only thing stopping 8v8 from happening is that players don't want it as much as you.

Sat 22 Sep 2018 1:46 PM by Zansobar

The arena zone is a solution to this problem you describe. If you want to 8v8 vs another 8v8 group just play in the arena. This is also one of the best reasons for the arena - to keep those that do not want to take part in the broader realm war (what the game was built around) out of the realm war and away from disturbing those that do want to fight for their realm and not just for their group or themselves.

Sat 22 Sep 2018 2:02 PM by Nehm

I agree regarding the current situation, but I don't believe there is any actual problem because like Hector said it's beta and 98% of the population either tried it first weeks then paused or don't play at all waiting for it to go live. I was very concerned for awhile when the RvR tasks came and it all turned into a zerg fest with free rr5 for everyone, but with the recent changes I feel it's going in the right direction.

Sat 22 Sep 2018 2:06 PM by Amroth

Meta runs a mid fg every sun/tues/thurs at 9:00est

Sat 22 Sep 2018 6:00 PM by merc123

Why don't you play mid if there is no 8v8 group there, sounds like you would find more fights

Sat 22 Sep 2018 6:02 PM by merc123

Amroth wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 2:06 PM
Meta runs a fg every sun/tues/thurs at 9:00est

Usually zergs

Sat 22 Sep 2018 8:04 PM by Smilo

And what are the DEVs supposed to do?
I mean you got an arena where you can queue for 8vs8 and chosed to not use it...
What should they do? Make full groups invisible to anyone who is not another full group?
I dont get it really...

Sat 22 Sep 2018 8:57 PM by Niix

Smilo wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 8:04 PM
And what are the DEVs supposed to do?
I mean you got an arena where you can queue for 8vs8 and chosed to not use it...
What should they do? Make full groups invisible to anyone who is not another full group?
I dont get it really...

I would like to see voluntary tasks you can sign up for that give RP bonus for equal number fights (1v1, 3v3, 8v8 etc)... not sure how you do it but would like to see that type of thing, instead of caravans (lol?)

Sat 22 Sep 2018 9:11 PM by Smilo

Niix wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 8:57 PM
I would like to see voluntary tasks you can sign up for that give RP bonus for equal number fights (1v1, 3v3, 8v8 etc)... not sure how you do it but would like to see that type of thing, instead of caravans (lol?)

Sounds like the arena to me. You do sign up, you do fight equal numbers, you do get RPs. You could very well pretend it was a "task" if you wanted.
But NOPE, you want to roam the frontier (full scale war zone where whole REALMS are fighting) and - at the same time - only fight against equal numbers.

How does that make any sense and how are they supposed to make it happen?

Sat 22 Sep 2018 9:39 PM by Ganaka

I don't understand the desire to have organized fights in an open world environment. Is the battle more fun when other people are watching? Or is it something else?

Sat 22 Sep 2018 10:47 PM by Dve

Niix wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 8:57 PM
Smilo wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 8:04 PM
And what are the DEVs supposed to do?
I mean you got an arena where you can queue for 8vs8 and chosed to not use it...
What should they do? Make full groups invisible to anyone who is not another full group?
I dont get it really...

I would like to see voluntary tasks you can sign up for that give RP bonus for equal number fights (1v1, 3v3, 8v8 etc)... not sure how you do it but would like to see that type of thing, instead of caravans (lol?)

I will not respond to every remark in this thread, but I will say a few things:
1. It's a very good point that this phenomenon is partially caused by the population of a beta server. I think you are right to some degree, but I am afraid this could also happen in a similar way after release.

2. To all saying "Just go to the arena LUL": the arena is closed, and it is not intended to keep it open other than for special events. Also, the arena is not the same as fighting 8v8 in open world. You guys see 8v8 fights just as arena battles, but they aren't. There are many factors, like where you expect or don't expect the INC, how you coordinate each other how to quickly position yourself at sudden engage, etc. And also one very important thing: The arena is a dump fest. Each time you start an arena battle, all RAs are reset and everybody presses moc sos bof gp am. That can happen in open world 8v8 too, but not on every inc (unless people really wait for their abilities to go off cooldown).
The fights also don't have to be as "organized" as you think. If they actually WERE completely organized, we wouldn't cry about it since we would organize them ourselves. The fact is: we don't. What I am talking about are also fights you get with an 8man pug that you suddenly meet somewhere randomly - they almost never happen right now, and that's what I am crying about here.

3. Isavyr accused me of contradicting myself, trying to make me look unreasonable. You cannot simply put me down with "you say you want people to be able to play their way, but nobody plays 8man, because players aren't choosing to do 8v8. Ergo everybody except YOU already plays the way they want. ↯" (paraphrased)
I am sure there are not only the accused "diehard organized nice fighters" who would like to run as fg and fight other fgs, but more "casual" people too. But the incentives to get rps in other ways are so high, that some of them really either rather just run smallman, zerg everything down or whatever the task says, OR won't even bother to form/log because they know they will either get zerged in the task-zone or roam in an empty side-zone. I'd say because of the current tasks, it is to some degree artificially... not "enforced", but suggested to not play 8v8 (by streamlining you what to do)- which you didnt have in the original game. The first reaction (joining the "fun"

is the one that happens especially with more casual 8v8 players (yes: there have to be smaller fish in the tank for a healthy eco-system, but they are artificially removed by the tasks), while the second reaction (stop playing to avoid the zerging) is more common with the already established 8v8 players (which is why so few of them are logging in).

An additional task for a "fight of equal numbers" could increase incentive for other people to do this kind of RvR though. This idea goes into the right direction. I think it is also possible, since I remember that Benfalk told me a few years ago that it would be possible to detect adders in RvR-fights - when detected, they could stop counting for this special task. This won't change anything for the players who already strongly desire 8v8, but it will open up the incentives for more casual people to give it a try (smaller fish in the tank, that are still able to eat other fish). Not sure if more tasks really is a cure, though.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 12:03 AM by Falken

This is the low point of a beta which will be wiped and isn't appealing to most adults, would not use this to judge about what live like will be. That being said, the zerging is bad for any kind of groups that want to fight outside of zerging. ZzZzZzzzz

Sun 23 Sep 2018 1:34 AM by defiasbandit

There should be more alternative RvR than the zerging in realm tasks, but 8mans are a minority. That playstyle is just not interesting for most players on Phoenix. I'm glad that players are exploring small group play when not in the Emain zerg..

Sun 23 Sep 2018 2:29 AM by Niix

Smilo wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 9:11 PM
Niix wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 8:57 PM
I would like to see voluntary tasks you can sign up for that give RP bonus for equal number fights (1v1, 3v3, 8v8 etc)... not sure how you do it but would like to see that type of thing, instead of caravans (lol?)

Sounds like the arena to me. You do sign up, you do fight equal numbers, you do get RPs. You could very well pretend it was a "task" if you wanted.
But NOPE, you want to roam the frontier (full scale war zone where whole REALMS are fighting) and - at the same time - only fight against equal numbers.

How does that make any sense and how are they supposed to make it happen?

That's not really it at all, I hate arena and don't want it in the game... but I do want some incentives for groups to not just stick zerg and go afk at keep to keep. Not sure if its feasible for the casual 8man crowd or not but would be nice to get something... you don't need incentives for the elite 8 mans.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 3:44 AM by Joc

Its beta, the population doent support many 8v8 yet. I hope at launch it will. It's a simple numbers game at this point though.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 7:08 AM by Loetus

nobody needs and cares 8mens (eliteists). even if there are 3 8mens per realm, its a minority.
3x3x8= 72.

log uthgard, there u have a empty whole rvr-world-arena.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 10:05 AM by Druth

I heard there might be some imbalance with how rps are distributed, making you get (in total) a lot more when 3 fg's share 1 chars death, than when 1 fg kill him/her.

If that is so, I hope they change it.

The advantage from being 3 fg's should be safety in numbers, not maximizing rps.
1 fg advantage is more rps per kill, but at the expense of some harder fights.
Solo/smallman should be even harder than fg, but much higher reward again.

Just not sure if the former or later is the case right now.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 12:23 PM by relvinian

The arena is not something that is good for the server except as an event.

My opinion.

Tasks are not something that should drive the rvr. They need to be secondary or tertiary.

Again, my opinion.

I think i'm right though.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 12:38 PM by klaggorn

merc123 wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 6:02 PM
Amroth wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 2:06 PM
Meta runs a fg every sun/tues/thurs at 9:00est

Usually zergs

We start 8 man every night and adapt based on what's out. Since no 8 man really exist, we'd rather continue to play and fight accordingly. You also can't stop people from adding.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 12:38 PM by Dis

@dve i know exactly what u mean and all your spoken points are the reason we "8man" stopped playing for 3 weeks now. its like we were playing on an empty server, because not a single 8man grp were roaming and if we met a 8man, they were just running away until they get to a save keep or outnumbers us with other taskgrps.

the whole tasksystem is funny for most of the guys, log in, join the zerg and do task after task the whole evening, fighting huge zerg vs zerg battles and even if you die and dont do a single shot, u get rewarded for it.

i dont think they will change that since they are looking for ways to keep the "casuals" on board.

i would like to fight more 8mans frequently, setgrps or even pugs would be nice but its just nothing running, the only way to get rps is joining the taskforce of each realm ur playin...because thats a non fun factor for us at the moment, we just stopp to play because we kinda get forced to do what the rest is doing or we can run into empty zones.

i hope on live there will be some pugs running as 8 and the server is not just doing the same thing over and over again.

but u wont get any understandings in the forum because 90% of the people wont accept anything but there way to play and downtalk your thread to elite 8vs8, go uthgard or something else...

i hope the devs are not just looking for ways to make this a complete taskfest server.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 12:40 PM by schreon

I believe there is a misconception of what elitist means. Or at least, people have diverging interpretations of that term.

I built hundreds of PUGs over the course of the past weeks. I invited all kinds of people, ranging from people experienced in 8man fights to people who barely do anything than sticking the zerg.

All of them, accross the board, complained and got frustrated when we fought another group and enemies added into the fight or we got rolled over by a zerg. All of them. Also those who usually zerg themselves!

The wish for at least some add-free fights every now and then is not elitist. It is universal.

I personally consider the term elitist to trefer to a behavior where

- people show no tolerance towards making mistakes and newcomers
- people reject certain classes joining their group because they don't fit in the meta
- people yell at others, offend other players or rage-quit if things don't go well
- success is considered way more important than a humane and friendly social intercourse

Yes, there are certain inviduals on this server who behave exactly like this and also happen to seek "clean" XvX fights at the same time. But IMHO, there is no causation in this, just correlation. You can very well seek somewhat balanced/fair fights without being elitist at all!

Hence, I absolutely support all efforts aiming at space/incentives for (somewhat balanced) X vs X fights. Adding tasks which fullfil only if you participated (not necessarily won!) in a clean X vs X fight in a certain zone defenitely could be a step in the right direction. Maybe add a +/- 1 tolerance, so defeating a 4man with a 5man still counts (as it is very well possible to beat a 5man if you are only 4, but organized well).

Thu 4 Oct 2018 12:42 PM by Thinal

This thread makes about as much sense as a whine about a lack of 1v1s. I wanted to dominate another person, and these 8 mans keep adding to my fight!

RvR means "zerg" is the natural state. Anybody who cleared out to leave you room to have your little scuffle is ignoring the plight of their own realm.

Thu 4 Oct 2018 5:39 PM by rubaduck

Thinal wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 12:42 PM
This thread makes about as much sense as a whine about a lack of 1v1s. I wanted to dominate another person, and these 8 mans keep adding to my fight!

RvR means "zerg" is the natural state. Anybody who cleared out to leave you room to have your little scuffle is ignoring the plight of their own realm.

Well I don't care about "the plight of my realm" as to me it's about pvp action and making configurations work. Zergs doesn't stimulate me, and killing soloers doesn't stimulate me. Killing 8 man groups as less or killing 8 man as 8 does stimulate me and that is what I'm after. Any RP stuff can be done by others for all I care.

Mutual respect is what 8 man is about, . We (as in our group) don't whine outside of the guild when people add, we find the adders later and kill them. It's called paying taxes and we collect the tax. We only add to mid vs alb fights, or if we are sidecaring a zerg close to a keep. We leave soloers and smallman group alone (until they add to our 8 man fights). That is our standard, and we do mess up from time to time and it will happen again. If no other group is on board with that, we still win fights, take names and kick ass, regardless.

Thu 4 Oct 2018 10:01 PM by Thinal

This game is RvR. That stands for "realm" versus "realm." It's right there in the name... my realm kills (or dies to) your realm. Nobody is going to respect anyone's decision to 1v1, nor should they respect 8v8 or any other configuration. In a roleplaying sense, we defend the realm. In a purely ooc pragmatic sense, we don't get RPs by watching you fight.

Blathering about how you respect solos is completely meaningless, even if it's not an outright lie, because you <> not-you, and there are enough not-yous out there to scrape the corpses of solos and small-mans off their shoes as they run by. Whining about getting rolled is a pointless waste of text, whether from a solo killing the master craftsman or from your thoughtful, polite, and considerate 8man.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 4:24 PM by rubaduck

Again, my point of view. I call it pvp, you call it rvr. I don't roleplay, you do apparently, I am just here for the action.

Our guild standards are set to mutually respect other guilds who have the same values as us. If people wants to add to fights, then go ahead but we will not spare them the next time we run past. We give them a chance, if they don't care then we don't care and zerg them every time we see them from that day on. Nobody's gonna tell us we add just for the sake of adding.

If you like to add, then feel free and do it. We can't force you to not add, and you are by the guidelines allowed to do it.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 5:42 PM by Thinal

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Oct 2018 4:24 PM
Again, my point of view. I call it pvp, you call it rvr.

This is an RvR product. My "point of view" has nothing to do with it. I've played several PvP games; this is not one of them.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 9:53 PM by Tree

I always wondered about the 8vs8 mindset displayed by some people here and on Uthgard. Back in the day I ran the best 8man group on my server for a few months, but we never thought about not joining relic raids or defends or roam around zergs to pick off stragglers. We had plenty 8vs8 and on occasion even managed to win 8vs24.
But this is not a one group game, the name of the game is RvR and its by design asymetrical. Instead of asking the Devs to change the concept of the game or give some form of benefit to your specific playstyle is kinda meh. I would say try to find the fun in the way the game is set up with all its ups and downs, but if you couldnt do that in 15 years, it probably wont happen now. I just wonder, what made you stay for so long? The hope for an active server, that caters to 8 man PvP? Cooooome ooooon...

Fri 5 Oct 2018 10:20 PM by Sei

You should remember that daoc used to be played with fix groupe of 8 players playing almost every week day 9->12pm. Ofc there were also pug and smallman also but on Phoenix i feel there is almost none of such fix groupe

Fri 5 Oct 2018 11:40 PM by Joc

Its beta, settle down.

Sat 6 Oct 2018 2:46 AM by defiasbandit

Tree wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Oct 2018 9:53 PM
I always wondered about the 8vs8 mindset displayed by some people here and on Uthgard. Back in the day I ran the best 8man group on my server for a few months, but we never thought about not joining relic raids or defends or roam around zergs to pick off stragglers. We had plenty 8vs8 and on occasion even managed to win 8vs24.
But this is not a one group game, the name of the game is RvR and its by design asymetrical. Instead of asking the Devs to change the concept of the game or give some form of benefit to your specific playstyle is kinda meh. I would say try to find the fun in the way the game is set up with all its ups and downs, but if you couldnt do that in 15 years, it probably wont happen now. I just wonder, what made you stay for so long? The hope for an active server, that caters to 8 man PvP? Cooooome ooooon...

Tree where were you for the Arena controversy. Some 8manners wanted full time arena on phoenix.

Sat 6 Oct 2018 5:05 AM by Tree

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Oct 2018 2:46 AM
Tree where were you for the Arena controversy. Some 8manners wanted full time arena on phoenix.

I left a comment there too, in fact Im even in favor of an arena, just without RP, without feathers and so on. If there were new rewards like titles or maybe some special gear, I believe it would be a wonderful addition to the server. More diverse gameplay is good as long as it doesnt interfere with other things.

Sat 6 Oct 2018 10:37 PM by Zenobi

Keep in mind the game was designed around realm vs realm combat not tidy 8v8, so coordinate your realm, get people to work together and defend your realm or attack other realms. If people dont want to work together then there isnt going to be much the dev's can do to make them and you will just have to go out there knowing your at a disadvantage because you essentially dont have a realm.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 2:44 AM by Zintair

I find it odd people want to refer to the “purpose” of the game when this server has created an environment so different from it. It is a custom experience and therefore unique to itself.

If people want to play for the sake of the realm great! Same for solo smallman 8 man and Zerg.

From what I got from DvE OP post is that there is a deterrent to that specific (8v8) playstyle because of the custom addition of tasks. Personally I think the way to fix this is significantly reduce the number of realm points you get. Obviously this will be the case come live but we should be testing here now and not then.

I also think a bit more diversity would make the task system a little better. You could do a warhammer AoR like system where you complete enough tasks receive a small non combat bonus for your realm or crafting or something. Just an off the dome example idea.

As of now though the task is the goal of rvr and numbers win it. We have three zones of rvr with zones in them yet we only utilize one part of those larger zones. If there are 500 people in rvr it’s going to be an awful experience.

Spread the action out, make people make some choices. And change the Dominate task or scrap it lol ughh is it awful. At least make it so multiple people have to flip the flag. Also let the server know when people are changing it not just that it was changed.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 4:19 AM by Joc

This is how I see it:

Zergs are healthy
8 mans are healthy
Solo and small man groups are healthy

When one of these dies it usually kills the others. That is why live is still kicking. Readily available buffs and good accessible action for any playstyle.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 5:58 AM by Beefzerkee

Man, everywhere daoc goes, entitled 8 man players go. 8 man elitism is part of what's killing live and in the long run it ends up killing off every free shard that pops up. You guys are a plague.

Nobody wants to be farmed by elite 8 mans that steamroll everything because they've played the game since the beginning nonstop. Johnsword and his buddies took over the live game and turned it into an 8 man radar paradise and look where it's at now. Same thing will happen to this server. Itll be healthy at first and then some entitled 8 man rolls in, makes everyone else log and then there's no action for them so they log. Then the zergs with their shitty skills but strength in numbers have nobody to run down and farm and eventually that's all you're left with.

Piss off, you 8 mans had your time, it was called Uthgard and the takeover of Broadsword on live. You get catered to everywhere you go, I hope your playstyle dies here.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 6:07 AM by defiasbandit

Beefzerkee wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 5:58 AM
Man, everywhere daoc goes, entitled 8 man players go. 8 man elitism is part of what's killing live and in the long run it ends up killing off every free shard that pops up. You guys are a plague.

Nobody wants to be farmed by elite 8 mans that steamroll everything because they've played the game since the beginning nonstop. Johnsword and his buddies took over the live game and turned it into an 8 man radar paradise and look where it's at now. Same thing will happen to this server. Itll be healthy at first and then some entitled 8 man rolls in, makes everyone else log and then there's no action for them so they log. Then the zergs with their shitty skills but strength in numbers have nobody to run down and farm and eventually that's all you're left with.

Piss off, you 8 mans had your time, it was called Uthgard and the takeover of Broadsword on live. You get catered to everywhere you go, I hope your playstyle dies here.

This 100%. Game is better with 5 player group cap in RvR. Who needs 7 teammates to RvR with anyway. Premade 8manning is cancer and has hurt DAOC since the beginning.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 1:37 PM by Ganaka

A group size of 8 allows

A nearly unbeatable team to be assembled. For the most part, only another 8-man team can best it.
Group buffs and heals are the most effective in a group size of 8.
Buff pots would be less likely to be used since having 2 buffers in the group is more likely. This would not help the economy.

A group size of 5 (or 6) means

The team isn't nearly as indestructible. A very good duo or 3-man team might be able to bring down a 5-man.
Group buffs and heals would be less effective than in an 8-man scenario. This would be advantageous to those wanting a nerf to healers in RVR.
Buff pots would be more likely to be used since having 2 buffers in the group is less likely. This would help the economy.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 2:41 PM by Zenobi

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 1:37 PM
A group size of 8 allows
A nearly unbeatable team to be assembled. For the most part, only another 8-man team can best it.
Group buffs and heals are the most effective in a group size of 8.
Buff pots would be less likely to be used since having 2 buffers in the group is more likely. This would not help the economy.

A group size of 5 (or 6) means
The team isn't nearly as indestructible. A very good duo or 3-man team might be able to bring down a 5-man.
Group buffs and heals would be less effective than in an 8-man scenario. This would be advantageous to those wanting a nerf to healers in RVR.
Buff pots would be more likely to be used since having 2 buffers in the group is less likely. This would help the economy.

That would be fine for places like mid and alb where minstrels nearly outnumber other classes and skalds are fairly easy to find, but in hib where there is already a fair shortage of bards would suffer having to field alot of the groups without speed.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 4:48 PM by Ganaka

Zenobi wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 2:41 PM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 1:37 PM
A group size of 8 allows
A nearly unbeatable team to be assembled. For the most part, only another 8-man team can best it.
Group buffs and heals are the most effective in a group size of 8.
Buff pots would be less likely to be used since having 2 buffers in the group is more likely. This would not help the economy.

A group size of 5 (or 6) means
The team isn't nearly as indestructible. A very good duo or 3-man team might be able to bring down a 5-man.
Group buffs and heals would be less effective than in an 8-man scenario. This would be advantageous to those wanting a nerf to healers in RVR.
Buff pots would be more likely to be used since having 2 buffers in the group is less likely. This would help the economy.

That would be fine for places like mid and alb where minstrels nearly outnumber other classes and skalds are fairly easy to find, but in hib where there is already a fair shortage of bards would suffer having to field alot of the groups without speed.

If Sprint and Speed didn't stack, the problem wouldn't be as bad.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 5:00 PM by defiasbandit

Ganaka it was literally the most common sense change to DAOC possible, yet Mythic failed to do it.

I can't describe to you how much 8 man group limit hurt DAOC. For every player that benefited there were probably 10 that were harmed by it.

Seriously Mythic. I argued with you about this all the time back during SI.

What games do 8 man premade groups nowadays? Thats what I thought. Nobody.

You forgot some important points.

8 mans are harder to fill. Take longer to fill. More confusing for casuals players.

What were you thinking Mythic.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 7:01 PM by Druth

Zenobi wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 2:41 PM
That would be fine for places like mid and alb where minstrels nearly outnumber other classes and skalds are fairly easy to find, but in hib where there is already a fair shortage of bards would suffer having to field alot of the groups without speed.

Sorry, but welcome to Albion where you need 3 classes to even have the core of a group, speed CC and main heals.

I would welcome at least trying to have max 5 man groups and see how it changes the group dynamic.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 3:56 AM by rubaduck

Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 7:01 PM
Sorry, but welcome to Albion where you need 3 classes to even have the core of a group, speed CC and main heals.

I would welcome at least trying to have max 5 man groups and see how it changes the group dynamic.

They did try it, back in FFA event, it was alright because you could choose between all the classes in the game. Would totally destroy group dynamics if you had to pick from realm however.

8 man groups is not a problem, having 8 players playing tactically as a team is not a problem. The players playing the game is a problem, and it's a healthy problem as there is a steep learning curve. Not just within the game itself, but also communicating, listening and giving / taking orders. As to defias's argument on why no other game has 8 man groups, well those games don't have 45 (+/-) classes divided on the realms either. 5 man limit will freeze classes, and make cookie cutter setups making most classes obsolete. It works on paper to have a 5 man limit, but it doesn't work in daoc unless you combine classes (which is preposterous and a stupid idea).

Mon 8 Oct 2018 5:33 PM by defiasbandit

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 3:56 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 7:01 PM
Sorry, but welcome to Albion where you need 3 classes to even have the core of a group, speed CC and main heals.

I would welcome at least trying to have max 5 man groups and see how it changes the group dynamic.

They did try it, back in FFA event, it was alright because you could choose between all the classes in the game. Would totally destroy group dynamics if you had to pick from realm however.

8 man groups is not a problem, having 8 players playing tactically as a team is not a problem. The players playing the game is a problem, and it's a healthy problem as there is a steep learning curve. Not just within the game itself, but also communicating, listening and giving / taking orders. As to defias's argument on why no other game has 8 man groups, well those games don't have 45 (+/-) classes divided on the realms either. 5 man limit will freeze classes, and make cookie cutter setups making most classes obsolete. It works on paper to have a 5 man limit, but it doesn't work in daoc unless you combine classes (which is preposterous and a stupid idea).

You'll never get it. The delusions of the 8 manner know no end.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM by Thinal

The problem is that the frontiers are just too freakin' huge. I haven't played live and I don't know if New Frontiers solved or exacerbated this problem, but there you go. For the most part it requires hoofing it across multiple zones to roam around for action and often die instantly once you do. Current beta dynamics are encouraging population in eMain (tasks, i40, i50 gear and soon to be i50), so a better insight comes from that other freeshard.

I've posted a preference for BG-style RvR and was significantly eviscerated for it, and I'm not promoting that here, but 12 RvR zones in frontiers are just too much. 5 might be a much better number -- 1 close to each home realm, one central zone with some sort of grand prize target, and one neutral zone farther away from the main action and no RvR targets where solos and small groups might be lulled into a false sense of security.

I look at the BG dynamics pre-i30, i30, and early i40 with stragglers left in Caledonia. Thidranki was always low key, but some action, and almost any noob player of almost any class could wander in and get a group. Caledonia had some elitism early on in actually getting a group, but anyone could get in on Zerg action, and there was plenty of opportunity to both take and defend the CK. Early i40 left a moderate Caledonia population that was already drifting into "big boy RvR" dynamics of groups being picky on invites and largely 8v8 roaming plus stealth game.

So there's a population density function going on here. The more sparse the population compared to the wider the ground to cover, the more important it was to group up smartly, which meant one was more likely to face an enemy grouped up smartly, so one had to check all of the boxes -- speed, CC, heals, spec buffs, demezz, nearsight, amnesia, etc. -- and actual damage is almost an afterthought.

There's related class and realm problems to this. Hib doesn't have enough bards, because barding is a thankless job with speed, buffs, cc, heals, and getting blamed every damn time one of your elite group members dies. Classes that are fun to play aren't actually the best for the group meta. CC, especially mesmerize, is WAY too important in this game, and it drives the need for demezz, determination, stoicism, and AoM just to counter what are often long-range, instant cast, and/or AOE mez that lasts a freaking minute or so.

Hating 8v8 goes a lot deeper than just the actual practice of me and my 7 friends against you and your 7 friends... that in and of itself is a good thing. The problem is what implies and is implied by this game forming itself into cookie cutter sets of 8. There are a lot of broken dynamics at play.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 7:14 PM by rubaduck

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 5:33 PM
You'll never get it. The delusions of the 8 manner know no end.

Yet again you fail to address the argument.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 7:21 PM by defiasbandit

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 7:14 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 5:33 PM
You'll never get it. The delusions of the 8 manner know no end.

Yet again you fail to address the argument.

How many times does it have to be said? 8 mans are bad for the game. They are bad for casuals, soloers, small manners etc.

Premade 8 mans were a very small minority of DAOC players back during SI. Balancing RvR around them is a terrible idea. All players who don't care for premade 8manning left the game, why do you think Live and Uthgard are empty.

8mans are hard to fill let alone fill optimally. It creates all sorts of confusion and problems for casual players. It is way easier to fill 5 player groups than 8. That is just common sense.

In DAOC you would wait around for 30-40 minutes trying to fill your PUG 8 man only to run into the frontiers and get stomped by some premade 8 man goons.

It was just terrible. Why do you think so many quit. Then take into account the elitist and toxic attitude of 8manners.

You can talk all about class balance etc.. That means nothing if nobody is playing your game.

No popular game today is designed around 8player premade groups. Most players prefer to solo or small man. The same has always been the case in DAOC.

I am aware that players like you fail to grasp this as you roam around empty frontiers in an empty game looking to fight the same 8 players over and over again. Yawn.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 7:33 PM by rubaduck

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
The problem is that the frontiers are just too freakin' huge. I haven't played live and I don't know if New Frontiers solved or exacerbated this problem, but there you go. For the most part it requires hoofing it across multiple zones to roam around for action and often die instantly once you do. Current beta dynamics are encouraging population in eMain (tasks, i40, i50 gear and soon to be i50), so a better insight comes from that other freeshard.

In short: they did not. They trippled it's size.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
I've posted a preference for BG-style RvR and was significantly eviscerated for it, and I'm not promoting that here, but 12 RvR zones in frontiers are just too much. 5 might be a much better number -- 1 close to each home realm, one central zone with some sort of grand prize target, and one neutral zone farther away from the main action and no RvR targets where solos and small groups might be lulled into a false sense of security.

A BG will turn in to a bowl of zergfest. The problem with narrowing down zones is that zergs will have shorter way to their targets. Zerging is fun for about 5 minutes until you begin to question your existense in life. Having "designated" zones is not a healthy option because of my first argument. Do not cater to zergs, let them form and die out when the others had enough and fight back. The zones is not a issue in OF, it takes 5-10 minutes to run to end zone, and there are tasks that send you around.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
I look at the BG dynamics pre-i30, i30, and early i40 with stragglers left in Caledonia. Thidranki was always low key, but some action, and almost any noob player of almost any class could wander in and get a group. Caledonia had some elitism early on in actually getting a group, but anyone could get in on Zerg action, and there was plenty of opportunity to both take and defend the CK. Early i40 left a moderate Caledonia population that was already drifting into "big boy RvR" dynamics of groups being picky on invites and largely 8v8 roaming plus stealth game.

BG's are fun, and it gives players levling up some "early rvr action". The problem with the model, is that you can choose not to leave and stay there. BG's should not be the main focus of pvp, and having BG's close to 50 will hurt bigboii rvr more then it will do it good.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
So there's a population density function going on here. The more sparse the population compared to the wider the ground to cover, the more important it was to group up smartly, which meant one was more likely to face an enemy grouped up smartly, so one had to check all of the boxes -- speed, CC, heals, spec buffs, demezz, nearsight, amnesia, etc. -- and actual damage is almost an afterthought.

It is a tactical game, and you need the tools available to play the tactics game. You don't need a glasscannon group if you can communicate well, and better then enemy team. This is not a rock-paper-scissor game, it is hard and cumbersome mechanics and knowing how to avoid, exploit and apply them is what makes you a winning team. Communication is always the key however.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
There's related class and realm problems to this. Hib doesn't have enough bards, because barding is a thankless job with speed, buffs, cc, heals, and getting blamed every damn time one of your elite group members dies. Classes that are fun to play aren't actually the best for the group meta. CC, especially mesmerize, is WAY too important in this game, and it drives the need for demezz, determination, stoicism, and AoM just to counter what are often long-range, instant cast, and/or AOE mez that lasts a freaking minute or so.

This is loved by most pvp players in daoc. It is the bread and butter. Yes there are few bards, because it is a difficult class to play. People don't want difficult, they want easy. Again, tools of the trade, and knowing them, how to use them, how to exploit them and how to avoid it is the game.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
Hating 8v8 goes a lot deeper than just the actual practice of me and my 7 friends against you and your 7 friends... that in and of itself is a good thing. The problem is what implies and is implied by this game forming itself into cookie cutter sets of 8. There are a lot of broken dynamics at play.

Tell me the cookie cutter please. Every group needs speed, check bards, skalds minstrels. Every group needs CC: pick and choose my friend. You have so many options here that it is rediculous. Every group needs damage: with an exception of a few classes, anything goes. You want a tank train? Nothing is stopping you. Caster group? Any comp is great. Hybrid? Go ahead.

If you're talking about min-maxing however, yep you do get "cookie-cutters" but we are talking about the very few out there. They are not destroying pvp, if anything they make it viable. Nothing beats the rush of clearing a 16 man zerg with just 8 players. Nothing beats the rush of clearing an 8 man with just 5 players. It is a group based game, and again, communication is the key.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 8:26 PM by defiasbandit

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 7:33 PM
Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
The problem is that the frontiers are just too freakin' huge. I haven't played live and I don't know if New Frontiers solved or exacerbated this problem, but there you go. For the most part it requires hoofing it across multiple zones to roam around for action and often die instantly once you do. Current beta dynamics are encouraging population in eMain (tasks, i40, i50 gear and soon to be i50), so a better insight comes from that other freeshard.

In short: they did not. They trippled it's size.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
I've posted a preference for BG-style RvR and was significantly eviscerated for it, and I'm not promoting that here, but 12 RvR zones in frontiers are just too much. 5 might be a much better number -- 1 close to each home realm, one central zone with some sort of grand prize target, and one neutral zone farther away from the main action and no RvR targets where solos and small groups might be lulled into a false sense of security.

A BG will turn in to a bowl of zergfest. The problem with narrowing down zones is that zergs will have shorter way to their targets. Zerging is fun for about 5 minutes until you begin to question your existense in life. Having "designated" zones is not a healthy option because of my first argument. Do not cater to zergs, let them form and die out when the others had enough and fight back. The zones is not a issue in OF, it takes 5-10 minutes to run to end zone, and there are tasks that send you around.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
I look at the BG dynamics pre-i30, i30, and early i40 with stragglers left in Caledonia. Thidranki was always low key, but some action, and almost any noob player of almost any class could wander in and get a group. Caledonia had some elitism early on in actually getting a group, but anyone could get in on Zerg action, and there was plenty of opportunity to both take and defend the CK. Early i40 left a moderate Caledonia population that was already drifting into "big boy RvR" dynamics of groups being picky on invites and largely 8v8 roaming plus stealth game.

BG's are fun, and it gives players levling up some "early rvr action". The problem with the model, is that you can choose not to leave and stay there. BG's should not be the main focus of pvp, and having BG's close to 50 will hurt bigboii rvr more then it will do it good.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
So there's a population density function going on here. The more sparse the population compared to the wider the ground to cover, the more important it was to group up smartly, which meant one was more likely to face an enemy grouped up smartly, so one had to check all of the boxes -- speed, CC, heals, spec buffs, demezz, nearsight, amnesia, etc. -- and actual damage is almost an afterthought.

It is a tactical game, and you need the tools available to play the tactics game. You don't need a glasscannon group if you can communicate well, and better then enemy team. This is not a rock-paper-scissor game, it is hard and cumbersome mechanics and knowing how to avoid, exploit and apply them is what makes you a winning team. Communication is always the key however.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
There's related class and realm problems to this. Hib doesn't have enough bards, because barding is a thankless job with speed, buffs, cc, heals, and getting blamed every damn time one of your elite group members dies. Classes that are fun to play aren't actually the best for the group meta. CC, especially mesmerize, is WAY too important in this game, and it drives the need for demezz, determination, stoicism, and AoM just to counter what are often long-range, instant cast, and/or AOE mez that lasts a freaking minute or so.

This is loved by most pvp players in daoc. It is the bread and butter. Yes there are few bards, because it is a difficult class to play. People don't want difficult, they want easy. Again, tools of the trade, and knowing them, how to use them, how to exploit them and how to avoid it is the game.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
Hating 8v8 goes a lot deeper than just the actual practice of me and my 7 friends against you and your 7 friends... that in and of itself is a good thing. The problem is what implies and is implied by this game forming itself into cookie cutter sets of 8. There are a lot of broken dynamics at play.

Tell me the cookie cutter please. Every group needs speed, check bards, skalds minstrels. Every group needs CC: pick and choose my friend. You have so many options here that it is rediculous. Every group needs damage: with an exception of a few classes, anything goes. You want a tank train? Nothing is stopping you. Caster group? Any comp is great. Hybrid? Go ahead.

If you're talking about min-maxing however, yep you do get "cookie-cutters" but we are talking about the very few out there. They are not destroying pvp, if anything they make it viable. Nothing beats the rush of clearing a 16 man zerg with just 8 players. Nothing beats the rush of clearing an 8 man with just 5 players. It is a group based game, and again, communication is the key.

Rubaduck has a point here. Any kind of Battleground at level 50 is a bad idea. The OF only take about 10 minutes to run from one end to the other. The problem right now the lack of incentivize to rvr in other frontiers outside of the task zone. I am ok with realm tasks, but they are just zerg fests that lots of players do not enjoy much. Hopefully there soon will be alternative frontiers to RvR in.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 10:26 PM by Thinal

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 7:33 PM
Having "designated" zones is not a healthy option because of my first argument.

Your post is very thorough and civil, and while I disagree with you on pretty much every point, I see no need to counter-counter each point. Our arguments should stand fine as-is.

I quote this portion for clarification. I in no way intend to "designate" any zone for any purpose. The idea for solos and small mans to be "lulled into a false sense of security" is purely on a psychological, behavioral, and economic basis. As there would be no RvR prizes there (no keeps), there would be less population, and therefore less incentive for zerging there... but there would certainly be no actual barrier to doing so. Whether the zone ended up being empty, mostly 1v1 / smallman, yet another 8v8, or outright zerg would depend on many other behavioral factors (density, PvE benefits from hunting there, etc) rather than any type of game mechanic or community rule determining who was "allowed" in there.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 1:02 AM by Ganaka

So many people are standing around waiting for that last 1 or 2 people, with the right class, to join them. They stand around forever it seems. Instead of just going out in a group of 6 and getting a few RP, they just stand there waiting to make the perfect 8-man group. Of all the things to be OCD about, standing around hoping some stranger logs in on that specific build you "need" to complete your "perfect" 8-man seems over the top. Not lowering the max group size from 8 to 6 had just as much impact on this game failing as did WoW.

This game isn't a waiting room simulator, so quit standing around!

Tue 9 Oct 2018 11:35 AM by rubaduck

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 1:02 AM
So many people are standing around waiting for that last 1 or 2 people, with the right class, to join them. They stand around forever it seems. Instead of just going out in a group of 6 and getting a few RP, they just stand there waiting to make the perfect 8-man group. Of all the things to be OCD about, standing around hoping some stranger logs in on that specific build you "need" to complete your "perfect" 8-man seems over the top. Not lowering the max group size from 8 to 6 had just as much impact on this game failing as did WoW.

This game isn't a waiting room simulator, so quit standing around!

This is what I call the elitetism of 8 man, refusing to play anything but. And by all means, let them be. The worst part is when pugs do this.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 1:02 PM by opossum12

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
The problem is that the frontiers are just too freakin' huge. I haven't played live and I don't know if New Frontiers solved or exacerbated this problem, but there you go. For the most part it requires hoofing it across multiple zones to roam around for action and often die instantly once you do. Current beta dynamics are encouraging population in eMain (tasks, i40, i50 gear and soon to be i50), so a better insight comes from that other freeshard.

Actually, New Frontiers is wayyyyyy larger than OF. Live (Ywain) and Phoenix Beta have approximately the same pop, but live is completely dead aside from zergs right now, while phoenix has some really decent action at the 8 man and zerg level.

The only thing, and the devs are working on it, is make sure that Emain isn't the only zone where people go to fight. The current rvr task iteration really improved that, it's nice to run to other zones. And honestly, I was soloing on skald and it takes 5-6 minutes to run from SF to HMG and AMG in Odin's, so it's not that bad.

If ever maybe having a portal keep system where players can port to DC/Beno/Bled (or whatever the keep that's in EM, HW and OG) when they meet specific objectives (own keeps, relics, whatever) could help.

Thinal wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:22 PM
There's related class and realm problems to this. Hib doesn't have enough bards, because barding is a thankless job with speed, buffs, cc, heals, and getting blamed every damn time one of your elite group members dies. Classes that are fun to play aren't actually the best for the group meta. CC, especially mesmerize, is WAY too important in this game, and it drives the need for demezz, determination, stoicism, and AoM just to counter what are often long-range, instant cast, and/or AOE mez that lasts a freaking minute or so.

This is what separates DAoC pvp and WoW pvp. DAoC appeal is all about the CC and how you control fight through CC. I mean on hib if you have a mentalist you basically have an un'ccable demezzer that can quickcast cure mezz, plus you have the bard. On alb? Sorc and minstrel (again un'ccable demezzer). On mid, you run minimum 2 demezzers, sometimes 3 with SM.

If you get caught in a minute mezz or root, then it is a bit your fault that you exposed yourself, and you can congratulate the other group for winning cc and respecting cc.

Live (ywain) has been working to be a WoW emulator where CC doesn't count where hybrid classes literally walk through CC (Det+Stroicsm+mythical cc reduction) where a 1:15 minute mezz lasts <5 seconds on a heavy tank. This brings DAoC to a strict numbers game, where abilities don't count, you just need to outnumber your oponent to win because he can't gain control through cc.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 8:25 PM by Thinal

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 1:02 PM
The only thing, and the devs are working on it, is make sure that Emain isn't the only zone where people go to fight. The current rvr task iteration really improved that, it's nice to run to other zones. And honestly, I was soloing on skald and it takes 5-6 minutes to run from SF to HMG and AMG in Odin's, so it's not that bad.

I think the biggest problem with that was that Hibs have a disadvantage in getting back into the action in Emain. Second problem is that it is a tight zone. But concentrating the fight is in and of itself a benefit, not a drawback.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 10:21 PM by wimbo

Where is this so-called Arena Zone? I need to find it asap -- these zergs get old.

Sat 2 Feb 2019 12:57 PM by Rherdcore

This topic is as good/interesting as it is important, if you analyze the whole scenario since 2001.

What we find is, in the beggining, the whole game structured around Zergs vs Zergs. We had by the time ~50 to 70k players in all the servers. Each server individually usually had 4-6k people. You actually HAD zergs vs zergs to counter. It was the only time when DAoC was played "the way it was originally designed for".

As the population starts to drop, and i bet all my coins that it was NOT because one or two OP item or ability that ToA introduced (as many people come with as an excuse) but indeed for what one of us stated here a few posts behind - which is one of the biggest truths i've seen concerning this game - that is 'the zerg is fun for 5 minutes, then you start to question your existance. It is exactly this... it is simply inevitable to think for yourself:

"-OK, we just killed 50 people in the last 10 minutes, but WTF did I actually do? I was in the middle of another 50 men, moving on this mess, i am able to cast one spell before the enemy dies, it is generally the main spell i have, that resumes to a rotation of two: debuff-switch target, debuff-switch target.... or DD-switch target, DD-switch target.... and so on..."

The zerg fights in this game, aka RVR, (except when you are taking a castle or a keep) resumes to a sum of tiny contributions to fights that you arent necessarily needed and easily replaceable. This is what killed daoc. The pvp system of it at its cerne, its foundations (the combat system and abilities and positional styles...) is amazing and revolutionary. But it was designed to a bigger purpose that neutralized its very best part.

As we move in time, we see that people started to realize it and the zergs were divided into 8man. Some of them shined over the multitude, and in the pursue of that feeling of your 8 man taking down double their number, people started to prefer to wait 30-40 minutes to add their specific combination of classes to their groups. And this led the game to another degree below - as also stated here on this topic.

The no life or rl friends kept their 8 man. The common player had no patience to spend half of his play time waiting for a comp and after that, taking 10 mins every wipe to reset and move.

With this, small men started which was a success, cause its easier to fill smaller groups and, if well set, also rewards that great and addicting feeling of winning an outnumber fight... You'll know what i'm saying if your trio ever win against 8 man grps. And the best of all: unlike the zerg fights, you ACTUALLY HAVE part in the victory. It was NOT just a mezz, a DD and a heal you did to win it. It was a whole strategy and playing wise to beat bigger numbers than yours.

Soloers are moved by the same feeling: to 1vXm which is even more incredible feeling, imho. Or at least to have contributed 100% to the win.

So the biggest problem i see is this: winning easy RPs has never been enough to the player. Deep inside they want to actually take part in it, not just by pressing 3 buttons over and over. And when a zerg comes down three steps at once and kills the soloer, its a non-sense since killing a fg is kind the same feeling for the zerg as killing the soloer, u wont have any challenge either way. In the other hand, the soloer had never any chance. Its about not respecting the other's playstyle with the biggest crap ever said in DAoC:

"If it is red, it is dead" - the philosophy that killed DAoC.

If zergs came down just 1 level, fgs just to small men and only the small men killed the soloers (in another words, if you ever walked through RVR zones carrying the thought that you would only take part in fights where your opponent actually have ANY chance of winning), ONLY THEN this game would have a place for all. Unfortunatelly, simply gaining free RP's is more important than having fun to many of our players.

I never took part in zergs cause i realized it was no fun and i had almost no chance of losing and I wasnt using all my potential, though I played 8 men grp until they start to take more than 15 minutes to be formed and people in my grp couldnt respect other's choice for soloing and not leaving them alone, then started playing small men or solo. So definitelly if the game was designed around smaller groups, imo it would solve the problem and would also make better use of the great reactionary combat system that only DAOC has.

Sat 2 Feb 2019 1:53 PM by WyandVoidbringer

Rherdcore wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Feb 2019 12:57 PM
This topic is as good/interesting as it is important, if you analyze the whole scenario since 2001.

What we find is, in the beggining, the whole game structured around Zergs vs Zergs. We had by the time ~50 to 70k players in all the servers. Each server individually usually had 4-6k people. You actually HAD zergs vs zergs to counter. It was the only time when DAoC was played "the way it was originally designed for".

As the population starts to drop, and i bet all my coins that it was NOT because one or two OP item or ability that ToA introduced (as many people come with as an excuse) but indeed for what one of us stated here a few posts behind - which is one of the biggest truths i've seen concerning this game - that is 'the zerg is fun for 5 minutes, then you start to question your existance. It is exactly this... it is simply inevitable to think for yourself:

"-OK, we just killed 50 people in the last 10 minutes, but WTF did I actually do? I was in the middle of another 50 men, moving on this mess, i am able to cast one spell before the enemy dies, it is generally the main spell i have, that resumes to a rotation of two: debuff-switch target, debuff-switch target.... or DD-switch target, DD-switch target.... and so on..."

The zerg fights in this game, aka RVR, (except when you are taking a castle or a keep) resumes to a sum of tiny contributions to fights that you arent necessarily needed and easily replaceable. This is what killed daoc. The pvp system of it at its cerne, its foundations (the combat system and abilities and positional styles...) is amazing and revolutionary. But it was designed to a bigger purpose that neutralized its very best part.

As we move in time, we see that people started to realize it and the zergs were divided into 8man. Some of them shined over the multitude, and in the pursue of that feeling of your 8 man taking down double their number, people started to prefer to wait 30-40 minutes to add their specific combination of classes to their groups. And this led the game to another degree below - as also stated here on this topic.

The no life or rl friends kept their 8 man. The common player had no patience to spend half of his play time waiting for a comp and after that, taking 10 mins every wipe to reset and move.

With this, small men started which was a success, cause its easier to fill smaller groups and, if well set, also rewards that great and addicting feeling of winning an outnumber fight... You'll know what i'm saying if your trio ever win against 8 man grps. And the best of all: unlike the zerg fights, you ACTUALLY HAVE part in the victory. It was NOT just a mezz, a DD and a heal you did to win it. It was a whole strategy and playing wise to beat bigger numbers than yours.

Soloers are moved by the same feeling: to 1vXm which is even more incredible feeling, imho. Or at least to have contributed 100% to the win.

So the biggest problem i see is this: winning easy RPs has never been enough to the player. Deep inside they want to actually take part in it, not just by pressing 3 buttons over and over. And when a zerg comes down three steps at once and kills the soloer, its a non-sense since killing a fg is kind the same feeling for the zerg as killing the soloer, u wont have any challenge either way. In the other hand, the soloer had never any chance. Its about not respecting the other's playstyle with the biggest crap ever said in DAoC:

"If it is red, it is dead" - the philosophy that killed DAoC.

If zergs came down just 1 level, fgs just to small men and only the small men killed the soloers (in another words, if you ever walked through RVR zones carrying the thought that you would only take part in fights where your opponent actually have ANY chance of winning), ONLY THEN this game would have a place for all. Unfortunatelly, simply gaining free RP's is more important than having fun to many of our players.

I never took part in zergs cause i realized it was no fun and i had almost no chance of losing and I wasnt using all my potential, though I played 8 men grp until they start to take more than 15 minutes to be formed and people in my grp couldnt respect other's choice for soloing and not leaving them alone, then started playing small men or solo. So definitelly if the game was designed around smaller groups, imo it would solve the problem and would also make better use of the great reactionary combat system that only DAOC has.

Great post. This is exactly it, and this is why I level a character to 24 and stop in Thidranki.

I've leveled a few characters to 50 in ye olden days, but I always went back to Thidranki to have my PvP fun.

As I've been playing on Phoenix the past few weeks it has caused me to reflect a lot on MMO game design, and I've come to appreciate WoW's classic battlegrounds more and more. The goal oriented small-team PvP really let you feel like you were having an impact. You could guard a point or peel for a flag carrier even if you weren't the best geared character and still contribute to the team win.

As long as Thidranki is active, that's were I'll be. And I like that it's level 20-24, as that lets me easily level any class I want to try PvP with.

Sat 2 Feb 2019 6:39 PM by defiasbandit

Rherdcore wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Feb 2019 12:57 PM
This topic is as good/interesting as it is important, if you analyze the whole scenario since 2001.

What we find is, in the beggining, the whole game structured around Zergs vs Zergs. We had by the time ~50 to 70k players in all the servers. Each server individually usually had 4-6k people. You actually HAD zergs vs zergs to counter. It was the only time when DAoC was played "the way it was originally designed for".

As the population starts to drop, and i bet all my coins that it was NOT because one or two OP item or ability that ToA introduced (as many people come with as an excuse) but indeed for what one of us stated here a few posts behind - which is one of the biggest truths i've seen concerning this game - that is 'the zerg is fun for 5 minutes, then you start to question your existance. It is exactly this... it is simply inevitable to think for yourself:

"-OK, we just killed 50 people in the last 10 minutes, but WTF did I actually do? I was in the middle of another 50 men, moving on this mess, i am able to cast one spell before the enemy dies, it is generally the main spell i have, that resumes to a rotation of two: debuff-switch target, debuff-switch target.... or DD-switch target, DD-switch target.... and so on..."

The zerg fights in this game, aka RVR, (except when you are taking a castle or a keep) resumes to a sum of tiny contributions to fights that you arent necessarily needed and easily replaceable. This is what killed daoc. The pvp system of it at its cerne, its foundations (the combat system and abilities and positional styles...) is amazing and revolutionary. But it was designed to a bigger purpose that neutralized its very best part.

As we move in time, we see that people started to realize it and the zergs were divided into 8man. Some of them shined over the multitude, and in the pursue of that feeling of your 8 man taking down double their number, people started to prefer to wait 30-40 minutes to add their specific combination of classes to their groups. And this led the game to another degree below - as also stated here on this topic.

The no life or rl friends kept their 8 man. The common player had no patience to spend half of his play time waiting for a comp and after that, taking 10 mins every wipe to reset and move.

With this, small men started which was a success, cause its easier to fill smaller groups and, if well set, also rewards that great and addicting feeling of winning an outnumber fight... You'll know what i'm saying if your trio ever win against 8 man grps. And the best of all: unlike the zerg fights, you ACTUALLY HAVE part in the victory. It was NOT just a mezz, a DD and a heal you did to win it. It was a whole strategy and playing wise to beat bigger numbers than yours.

Soloers are moved by the same feeling: to 1vXm which is even more incredible feeling, imho. Or at least to have contributed 100% to the win.

So the biggest problem i see is this: winning easy RPs has never been enough to the player. Deep inside they want to actually take part in it, not just by pressing 3 buttons over and over. And when a zerg comes down three steps at once and kills the soloer, its a non-sense since killing a fg is kind the same feeling for the zerg as killing the soloer, u wont have any challenge either way. In the other hand, the soloer had never any chance. Its about not respecting the other's playstyle with the biggest crap ever said in DAoC:

"If it is red, it is dead" - the philosophy that killed DAoC.

If zergs came down just 1 level, fgs just to small men and only the small men killed the soloers (in another words, if you ever walked through RVR zones carrying the thought that you would only take part in fights where your opponent actually have ANY chance of winning), ONLY THEN this game would have a place for all. Unfortunatelly, simply gaining free RP's is more important than having fun to many of our players.

I never took part in zergs cause i realized it was no fun and i had almost no chance of losing and I wasnt using all my potential, though I played 8 men grp until they start to take more than 15 minutes to be formed and people in my grp couldnt respect other's choice for soloing and not leaving them alone, then started playing small men or solo. So definitelly if the game was designed around smaller groups, imo it would solve the problem and would also make better use of the great reactionary combat system that only DAOC has.

I agree with you 100%. The issue with the realm tasks is that they are just zergfest without purpose. It is just an endless zerg and 8 man RP farm. The entire reason groups were 8 players in this game was so that they could fight in large scale battles over keeps and relics. Instead, you have players abuse the 8 player group size to roam zones like Emain and farm other players. That is largely what killed DAOC RvR. The task system is just turning Odin's and Hadrians into another Emain Macha.

We have hundreds of players in the frontiers, and pretty much all of them are in the task zone 8manning/zergining eachother. Why is it that the server has over 3k population, yet so many frontiers are empty? RvR is best when there is action across each frontier.

They need to consider changing the realm tasks or give more incentives and rewards for players RvRing outside of the single task zone. I think zerg RvR is good, but they should be moving across the frontiers fighting over keeps, not circling one zone over and over. This is a huge issue and many players getting bored already.

Sat 2 Feb 2019 7:15 PM by Anaethema

Just checking in - thank you for keeping this topic civil! Please continue with what you all were doing...

Sat 2 Feb 2019 10:21 PM by daocgod

8v8 is dead
this is what happens when you offer participation trophies to everyone, no one wants to do anything but whore them.

Sun 3 Feb 2019 2:38 AM by defiasbandit

daocgod wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Feb 2019 10:21 PM
8v8 is dead
this is what happens when you offer participation trophies to everyone, no one wants to do anything but whore them.

8v1 is alive and well.

Sun 3 Feb 2019 4:06 AM by relvinian

You may just have to post challenges or do some sort of player event.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:58 AM by tsteken

Make Arena the proper 8v8 or put Agramon in as an area to port too for 8v8 fights.
Also tasks are not even random. Fight Email->Defend DC(i.e camp it for 10 mins doing nothing)->Dominate Breifine.

I dont find the artificially made mg fights fun at all. I understand why people go to task fights though. I got 20K yesterday mindless spamming cc with my Healer on milegate albs trying to get trough (impossible for a caster heavy realm btw)
I got 20K in 30 minutes. in a duo.
The problem is the reward is very high but the gameplay is insanely boring. Zergs should be made on the go not artificially created due to some task.
Another problem with that is that the instaports just puts you back there in 5 minutes. release buff and run. defend the milegate at all costs.

If there was incentive for 8man groups aswell I wouldnt have as much problems with the task zergs. But basically to gain as much as possible RRs now you gotta run with the zerg. it even counts for the ones already hitting RR7.

I will quit for sure if I cannot enjoy one of the things I love the most in this game. Proper group fights, not knowing when you got inc and the whole surprise thing of daoc that made it the best sandbox MMO out there to this day.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:25 AM by Jaegaer

tsteken wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:58 AM
But basically to gain as much as possible RRs now you gotta run with the zerg. it even counts for the ones already hitting RR7.

And here we have the age old problem. Grinding when you want to have "fun".

What I hope for this server is that once I get to 50 with casual play all the grinders will have left. Burned out of their "omg omg I cant get to RR10 in mere days, this sevre sucks, zerg sucks" playstyle.

If the zerg sucks, just do not run with it. If your RP/second rate gets a hit, well, then this is just what it takes.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:52 AM by Sei

Let the zerg in the task zone and go in other zone if you want gentleman 8v8. It s already what is happening today.

You should not want to have both cause you would be ignoring part of the community that does not want 8v8 at all.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:19 AM by tsteken

Jaegaer wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:25 AM
tsteken wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:58 AM
But basically to gain as much as possible RRs now you gotta run with the zerg. it even counts for the ones already hitting RR7.

And here we have the age old problem. Grinding when you want to have "fun".

What I hope for this server is that once I get to 50 with casual play all the grinders will have left. Burned out of their "omg omg I cant get to RR10 in mere days, this sevre sucks, zerg sucks" playstyle.

If the zerg sucks, just do not run with it. If your RP/second rate gets a hit, well, then this is just what it takes.

Why would you run ANYWHERE else for "fun" when there is nothing else there, the fun needs to be created by likeminded people. And as of yet there is VERY few people that actually leaves the zerg. even if the fights are fun in the non task zones its not fun to gimp your realmrank for it.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:38 AM by keen

Just get connected with ppl on discord, avoid task zones and have 8v8 as much as you want. Don't blame the admins if the 8v8 crowd is running after cheap RPS

Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:47 AM by Pao

Pretty easy solution. AVOID THE TASK ZONE!

If all nice fight fighter do this its fixed.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 1:41 PM by Sepplord

tsteken wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:19 AM
Why would you run ANYWHERE else for "fun" when there is nothing else there, the fun needs to be created by likeminded people. And as of yet there is VERY few people that actually leaves the zerg. even if the fights are fun in the non task zones its not fun to gimp your realmrank for it.

So your actual problem is not that people are zerging, but that 8vs8 is not the best RP-farm anymore?

Also serious question: does CCing give RPs now? Or how did you get 20k RP in 30minutes spamming mezz/stun into the albzerg at a milegate? Also how do the 1500task-task factor into that 20k that much that the TASK is the thing creating the RP-Gap?

Mon 4 Feb 2019 2:26 PM by Meandow

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 1:41 PM
tsteken wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:19 AM
Why would you run ANYWHERE else for "fun" when there is nothing else there, the fun needs to be created by likeminded people. And as of yet there is VERY few people that actually leaves the zerg. even if the fights are fun in the non task zones its not fun to gimp your realmrank for it.

So your actual problem is not that people are zerging, but that 8vs8 is not the best RP-farm anymore?

Also serious question: does CCing give RPs now? Or how did you get 20k RP in 30minutes spamming mezz/stun into the albzerg at a milegate? Also how do the 1500task-task factor into that 20k that much that the TASK is the thing creating the RP-Gap?

As a sorc you get nothing at least, 20k in 30 min does sound pretty juicy, 40k/hour is probably more than what the bomb group made feeding on the zerg..

Mon 4 Feb 2019 3:08 PM by XLGrandma

country club mentality.........something always needs to be fixed/updated. I got into multiple 8v8's last night in the task zones, it's very exciting having small mans and roam groups and yea you may run into the zerg and get destroyed, but how is that any different than the original game? Think alot of people in here are doing some revisionist history and are forgetting zergs are a healthy and necessary part of the game. If you really wanna 8v8 it's out there.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 6:30 PM by defiasbandit

Zerging is the core RvR of the game. The issue is not the zerging. The issue is that all the RvR on the server mostly takes place in only the task zone. Zergs and 8mans are just running in circles farming anything they come across. Zerging and 8manning is meant for objective fighting. 8 man fights waged across multiple frontiers, wiith spontaneous incs and rewarding outcomes.

Relics do not matter much here. The rewards are poor. Darkness Falls does not matter much either. You can get all your feathers in a 200 player Raid much more efficiently. What reason is there to be in frontiers that are not the task zone? Is there anything worth farming in the frontiers? Is there anything worth fighti g or zerging over? No, not really. Why is that most players you find in the Frontiers outside of the task zone are levelers? Because the farming and rewards are worthwhile
What is worthwhile to farm or do in the Frontiers for level 50s? You have to add these incentives to bring other players out. Whether its specific kill task RP bonuses or valuable loot you can farm.

That is why everyone just runs to the task zone. The participatipn RP is a good thing, but the server lacks dynamic RvR that spans across each frontier.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 6:33 PM by chryso

This server is less than a month old. The last thing we need is massive changes to how things work.
Let it settle in for a year and see how it is going.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 6:37 PM by defiasbandit

chryso wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 6:33 PM
This server is less than a month old. The last thing we need is massive changes to how things work.
Let it settle in for a year and see how it is going.

The success of this server is largely due to how fast and frequent changes have been made. The RvR task system was tweaked constantly during the beta test. The developers here are receptive of making immediate modifications to do whatever is best for the server. The task system can be improved upon.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 6:54 PM by Ashenspire

The task system can be improved upon, but people forget that 8 man was an evolution beyond the Zerg when people started to realize that with the higher realm ranks they were capable of Zerg busting with just their 8 man alone.

Most people don't have the RAs to make it work. Trying to 8man on a fresh server is inviting a bad time for 99% of the people complaining about it, as they're not good enough to do it yet.

It's like starting a new game of league thinking that a level 1 Vayne can do the same thing as the 6 item level 18 Vayne you just finished playing the game before.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:25 PM by djegu

"The liberty of one ends where the liberty of another begins"
In my opinion both game style can cohabit, avoiding task zone, setting rendez-vous, using intel, could help 8man to satisfy their hunger for skilled fight.
The thing is, zerg are easy rps and we all know how important are RAs to make a diff when everybody is temped. Also zerg help casual players to get to a decent RR without putting too much hours in the game.
Although, as stated in the thread, zerg isn't really rewarding (psychologically speaking), but people start with zerg and as soon they feel enough temped or ready they jump into 8man.
As a casual player i don't particularly enjoy zerg (i prefer solo playing tbh) but i hate 8man, because there is too much pressure. You can even feel it in PVE...
I personally play daoc to relax after a day at work, not to get screamed at by a morons.
I still hope 8man people won't leave the server because they are part of what make daoc so wonderful, the variety of game style, personality and characters.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:10 AM by rubaduck

Lots of people = zergs, and we can't go around that.

That will never change, and nor should it. Most of the people who are looking for 8v8 tend to surf the zerg and move around it to find other zerg surfing groups. We've had some great fights, but also some really bad ones and it might be pretty even on all sides in regards of that.

No need to change anything, just let the server settle for a bit.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:13 AM by Jaegaer

tsteken wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:19 AM
Why would you run ANYWHERE else for "fun" when there is nothing else there, the fun needs to be created by likeminded people. And as of yet there is VERY few people that actually leaves the zerg. even if the fights are fun in the non task zones its not fun to gimp your realmrank for it.

Exactly. And you will never create non zerg gameplay when everyone is just farming. And, yes, that might mean a few days with low or even no RPs but if you make yourself known as the group who always runs Breifine (or whatnot) then this will have an effect sooner or later.

In the days of old a lot of people were 50 or close to 50 before there were even RPs and that was one of the best times. People RvRing just for the fun of it and not for maximum RP gain.

Anyways, the peeps that are already 50 and templated and going are the ones that do not care about the grind as long as it gives results. The ones that do not want to grind and dont need the maximum amount of exp/RP per hour to have fun are not 50 yet.

So, as is so often the case, patience is asked.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:31 AM by keen

It's newra, so rr is essential for your success rate. It's a never ending circle of farming rp to either catch up or pull away for most grps. Most RPS are made in task zone so everyone stays complaining

Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:35 PM by Takii

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:31 AM
It's newra, so rr is essential for your success rate. It's a never ending circle of farming rp to either catch up or pull away for most grps. Most RPS are made in task zone so everyone stays complaining

I fail to see how this has anything to do with New vs Old RAs. Old RAs were much bigger iwin buttons than New RAs.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 3:03 PM by keen

Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:35 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:31 AM
It's newra, so rr is essential for your success rate. It's a never ending circle of farming rp to either catch up or pull away for most grps. Most RPS are made in task zone so everyone stays complaining

I fail to see how this has anything to do with New vs Old RAs. Old RAs were much bigger iwin buttons than New RAs.

With New RA RR is much more important since they are better, and with a much higher uptime. especially on high lvl.
have fun hitting through 3x DI5 vs rr8+ grps with ur rr4 pug.
with old ra, your rr4 grp will almost have the same i win buttons as the rr8 grp. very different scaling.
New RA scales almost linearly with what you get to the realm points invested.
Old RA is the opposite, every gives the same gain while beeing much more expensive to buy. So rr advantage has a much lesser effect with old RA compared to new RA.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 3:11 PM by Sei

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 3:03 PM
Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:35 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:31 AM
It's newra, so rr is essential for your success rate. It's a never ending circle of farming rp to either catch up or pull away for most grps. Most RPS are made in task zone so everyone stays complaining

I fail to see how this has anything to do with New vs Old RAs. Old RAs were much bigger iwin buttons than New RAs.

With New RA RR is much more important since they are better, and with a much higher uptime. especially on high lvl.
have fun hitting through 3x DI5 vs rr8+ grps with ur rr4 pug.
with old ra, your rr4 grp will almost have the same i win buttons as the rr8 grp. very different scaling.

Are you aware that nobody is 8L yet?

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:04 AM by keen

Sei wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 3:11 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 3:03 PM
Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:35 PM
I fail to see how this has anything to do with New vs Old RAs. Old RAs were much bigger iwin buttons than New RAs.

With New RA RR is much more important since they are better, and with a much higher uptime. especially on high lvl.
have fun hitting through 3x DI5 vs rr8+ grps with ur rr4 pug.
with old ra, your rr4 grp will almost have the same i win buttons as the rr8 grp. very different scaling.

Are you aware that nobody is 8L yet?

You are aware of the rp gain here? Give it 1week.
Anyway rr8 over rr4 was just an example. Same goes for rr6 grps fighting rr4 average groups. You have such an advantage with these extra 20points each. It's very hard to win this with new ra if teams are on an equal level.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 9:23 AM by Meandow

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:04 AM
Sei wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 3:11 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 3:03 PM
With New RA RR is much more important since they are better, and with a much higher uptime. especially on high lvl.
have fun hitting through 3x DI5 vs rr8+ grps with ur rr4 pug.
with old ra, your rr4 grp will almost have the same i win buttons as the rr8 grp. very different scaling.

Are you aware that nobody is 8L yet?
You are aware of the rp gain here? Give it 1week.
Anyway rr8 over rr4 was just an example. Same goes for rr6 grps fighting rr4 average groups. You have such an advantage with these extra 20points each. It's very hard to win this with new ra if teams are on an equal level.

Old RAs were also 30min timer but new RAs are typically 10-15min so people use them a lot more frequently, typically you see at least 3-4 purges, 1-2 SoS, couple of MoCs etc per fight, with old RAs you could very rarely use that amount consistently unless you went afk for 20 min after each fight. High realm ranks were important with old RAs as well but the impact now is imo just bigger because they're almost always up.

Then again RAs are only one part of a lot of factors that will decide a fight. Setup, players, openers, adders, you name it. Personally don't think it's much of an issue.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:18 PM by gnefner

Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 2:35 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 10:31 AM
It's newra, so rr is essential for your success rate. It's a never ending circle of farming rp to either catch up or pull away for most grps. Most RPS are made in task zone so everyone stays complaining

I fail to see how this has anything to do with New vs Old RAs. Old RAs were much bigger iwin buttons than New RAs.

On 30 min timers.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:42 PM by Jaegaer

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 1:04 AM
You are aware of the rp gain here? Give it 1week.

You are aware that you are contradicting yourself?

If the RP gain is so fast then any differences between people will also melt down fast. With RR6 you are already pretty much set, the points afterwards are not useless but much less influencial. RR6 will likely be hit even by casuals in less than a month.

Yes, while you level up you will probably be steamrolled by RR8+ groups, thats true but only partially because they are RR8 and mostly because they are so experienced in RvR and play well.

This is however as it should be. What use is it to gin RPs at all if they do not make any difference?

Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:33 PM by keen

I am not contradicting. with new ra you are far away from being done with your ras at rr6. They have more or less linear scaling with points invested to gain.
Same applies if a rr8 grip fights against a rr10 grp. Same quality of game play, the rr8 grip will have a hard time winning. This was not the case with old ra.
Don't get me wrong new ras are much superior. Just don't be too surprised if you don't stand a chance vs a high rr grp if yours is not.
Only way to change this is to enforce a more progressive scaling, so higher rr doesn't benefit as much as it does now with more less linear scaling of new ra.
That is how old ra worked. Every level had higher cost with same gain each level. So very progressiv. This part of game design was better.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 7:35 AM by Jelm

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:33 PM
I am not contradicting. with new ra you are far away from being done with your ras at rr6. They have more or less linear scaling with points invested to gain.
Same applies if a rr8 grip fights against a rr10 grp. Same quality of game play, the rr8 grip will have a hard time winning. This was not the case with old ra.
Don't get me wrong new ras are much superior. Just don't be too surprised if you don't stand a chance vs a high rr grp if yours is not.
Only way to change this is to enforce a more progressive scaling, so higher rr doesn't benefit as much as it does now with more less linear scaling of new ra.
That is how old ra worked. Every level had higher cost with same gain each level. So very progressiv. This part of game design was better.

This is very true !

Thu 7 Feb 2019 8:41 AM by Sepplord

i believe the progressiveness comes from the huge increase of GAINING the ranks in the first place.
Going from RR6 to RR8 is considerably faster, than going from RR8 to RR10

I don't know if that is enough or if it is fine, but if it turns out problematic, maybe a few % could be shifted from the higher ranks into the lower ranks of the RAs

Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:55 PM by Jaegaer

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:33 PM
This part of game design was better.

Your view is very obviously not shared by both the original AND the current devs, so, well, wait and see.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 1:45 PM by keen

Jaegaer wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:55 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Feb 2019 3:33 PM
This part of game design was better.

Your view is very obviously not shared by both the original AND the current devs, so, well, wait and see.

Well sure this is an opinion, others might disagree.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:21 PM by daocgod

Directing the traffic of the server is just a dumb idea, as soon as the task is in Odin's or Emain AMG is camped by a bunch of droolers. It was much better in beta where things were natural, so people were inclined to 8v8 to get RP's. I don't know what this imaginary world the thane and wizard players are imagining where you can just contact other groups to fight and there will be sick nonstop action 8v8. If you beat them once or twice, you will only see them in the task zone. Its the sad state of things and you can't change people, but you can change this retarded mechanic.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:30 PM by Sepplord

daocgod wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 2:21 PM
If you beat them once or twice, you will only see them in the task zone.

Fully agree, and that's why there is no well running 8vs8-zone, but then they should not complain about not finding enough 8vs8...

Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:49 PM by Tomthabom10

Am I the only one who thinks new frontiers would be better? More keeps, more spread out, good places to farm even at level 50.

Also to be fair I never really fully experienced RvR in old frontiers back in the day. When I finally got temped and ready for RvR I only had a few months until new frontiers came out so I could be wrong.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 4:19 PM by Ebenezer

Tomthabom10 wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Feb 2019 3:49 PM
Am I the only one who thinks new frontiers would be better? More keeps, more spread out, good places to farm even at level 50.

Also to be fair I never really fully experienced RvR in old frontiers back in the day. When I finally got temped and ready for RvR I only had a few months until new frontiers came out so I could be wrong.

You aren't the only one. I liked the original NF maps (the later updates not so much). The keeps are better designed, the towers add an objective a single group can handle, and the bridges were fun.
The flatter terrain everywhere is an improvement as well for roaming.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:02 PM by daocgod

At this point I've played more old frontiers than new and the nostalgia wears off quick when you are stuck at a gate for 15 minutes like its Ruby Ridge. Something really needs to be done about the gate camping. It happens several times a night and everyone wants to log instead of standing there. The only option other than New Frontiers is to change the tasks.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:14 PM by Tomthabom10

Not sure if this is a thing or not but with NF you could even implement a task along the lines of “Albion or Midgard has X amount of time to capture Dun Crim from Hibernia”.

Would make an attack and defense type game which every so often is a nice change of pace from the roaming zergs in a one area. Would also offer more Realm v Realm v Realm fights. Nothing like finally breaking into a keep just to get side swiped by the third realm who takes it over after you’ve done all the work. Really adds on to the “realm pride” and “screw those guys” part of the game that I think makes it a lot better.

Thu 7 Feb 2019 5:18 PM by brewtus23

The RvR tasks already do that. The realm task go from fight in a zone, take/defend a keep, dominate a zone. Then it switches to another realm and it repeats

Fri 8 Feb 2019 3:03 AM by Frieza

please correct me if im wrong, but cant you get through to other rvr using other methods? DF/ Relic keep?

personally i enjoy 8v8, but the bottom line is, if you get wiped and the other team 'kicks your butt', twice or more, you will have 1+ of your main people log. This will only happen more and more as people get alts too.

IMO if you want 8v8 and you want it to be fair, you need to organise with other realms over discord. Its really not hard. I believe the really good 8mans (im looking at you hib) dont like to kill the community by running the best 8man and squash others till they log/ give up. They want to kill (prove they can do it) and then help other teams get better so they have someone to play against and itll be a competition. Ive played with these 8mans and they dont want to bring the population down, they want it to increase.

So, get an 8man going, look whos in chat channels in discord and msg, and get a fight away from the task zone. You might die, but then i guarantee theyll message back with something like "Your shammy is trash tell him to hit ichor on inc", and you will only improve the community and your enjoyment.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:10 AM by Karqa

This is a RvR game (realm vs realm, not fg v fg). If any1 behaves like elitist noble man, you can easily say "stfu". But there must be some manors as well, like how ?

- No need to kill grays.
- No need to camp gray lvlin spots.
- Gray kills shouldnt be count as solo kills if they are counted I am not sure.
List goes like that about gray kills...................

Fri 8 Feb 2019 12:08 PM by Yeeha

Karqa wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:10 AM
This is a RvR game (realm vs realm, not fg v fg). If any1 behaves like elitist noble man, you can easily say "stfu". But there must be some manors as well, like how ?

- No need to kill grays.
- No need to camp gray lvlin spots.
- Gray kills shouldnt be count as solo kills if they are counted I am not sure.
List goes like that about gray kills...................

and why did u have to post it in a topic that clearly focuses on 8vs8? :>
ur attitude is what makes grey killing so hilarious

Fri 8 Feb 2019 10:14 PM by Clarky

If I may had something to the discussion, I think one very important element "killed" by the task that is not mentioned here is the element of surprise.

I mostly identify myself as someone part of the 8v8 community but I also enjoy fighting 2, 3 groups or more and even stuff like 16vs16/32 etc.

A big part of the enjoyment I had on a recent freeshard is that you never really know what you are going to fight. You set up a group and prepare for scenario and then try to face them.

Sure, you can read the logs or get information and find out where are the 8vs8 groups & where is a zerg but it's much more vague. And then there are also a few major elements that make your run more unpredictable:
_The time it takes you to get to a zone
_AND the fact that you don't really know what other players are aiming for.

With the tasks though, it is obvious. You create a huge concentration of player than can move pretty quickly everytime the mission changes.

This imo, is what threatens the "8v8 community" the most.

It kills the element of surprise and the excitement of going into a zone with 7 mates and "see what happens". And it forces you to constantly organize to meet other groups if you want approachable fights. That is just not fun.

I'm all up for creating mechanics that encourages RvR on a big scale & reduce the impacts of classic Relics but at the moment the cake is just too big and too easy to reach. And it's completely controlling RvR when the players should be the ones creating dynamics.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 11:08 PM by Freudinio

Tonight, my smallman has been rolled by some of the highest RR "8man" groups on this server. Pretty sure 8v8 is dead. Not surprising, considering Boyos took a relic week one. Guess you need all the outs you can get.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 12:21 AM by lourock

Who cares, 8 man sucks just have to watch people 8 manning on you tube to know its the most boring play style in the game. Its for try hards that poop sock.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 4:21 PM by Luluko

Many people play which dont have the time or will to play competive 8man anymore and instead of coordinating over discord/ts they rather sitecar a zerg especially with the task rp rewards its just way easier to get rr that way instead of running against a brick wall of other fgs especially hib with their 4-5 caster assist grps, its getting old fast being kited every inc or get assisted down in a 1sec. If you want to do 8vs8 you will have to define a zone for that and coordinate with other realms. If nobody comes to play or only the same grp well then you either adapt to zerg warfare or break up your 8man and make 4vs4 fights.