Scouts lvl 45 Shield Snare - Phoenix Freeshard

Are there any plans to review Scouts lvl 45 shield snare?

Tue 18 Aug 2020 6:18 PM by nkeplinger1

Why does it need to be reviewed? Its about the only tool a scout has for survival. Everyone on the server has purge to negate slam, scout melee is horrible. Also, anything with a s shield or range negates most scout abilities. Scouts are incredibly weak on this server.

RobotNinja wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 2:27 AM
Are there any plans to review Scouts lvl 45 shield snare?

Tue 18 Aug 2020 9:04 PM by Forlornhope

nkeplinger1 wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Aug 2020 6:18 PM
Why does it need to be reviewed? Its about the only tool a scout has for survival. Everyone on the server has purge to negate slam, scout melee is horrible. Also, anything with a s shield or range negates most scout abilities. Scouts are incredibly weak on this server.

RobotNinja wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 2:27 AM
Are there any plans to review Scouts lvl 45 shield snare?

I mean based on your post it should probably be reviewed. It isn't what the scout needed, and doesn't seem to help the class at all. Any thing that isn't a cloth wearing caster only dies to a solo scout by choice, since all you need to do is run the other way rather than repeatedly running back and getting snared again.

Wed 19 Aug 2020 12:06 PM by inoeth

had a fight vs a rr11 scout yesterday with my ranger, i lost because somehow he could snare me, run off and shoot while i tried to shoot and recived "you are in combat and can not perform that action" message ...... and yes i waited a few senconds before starting to shoot.
this is stupid

vote for new archery and get rid of the snare style

Wed 19 Aug 2020 1:06 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Aug 2020 12:06 PM
had a fight vs a rr11 scout yesterday with my ranger, i lost because somehow he could snare me, run off and shoot while i tried to shoot and recived "you are in combat and can not perform that action" message ...... and yes i waited a few senconds before starting to shoot.
this is stupid

vote for new archery and get rid of the snare style

If you want new Archery and homogenised styles then go play Live. You will fit right in there.

Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:09 PM by carlwinslow

I dunno why scouts even need this, i was on my 7l1 cave sham and a scout owned me 3 times in a row, crit shot for 750 if i tried to kite and dot he just run away and stealth and repeat. Maybe they need it vs assassin but its still strange that alb keeps getting random buffs when mid is the realm with the lowest pop.

Wed 26 Aug 2020 4:10 AM by nkeplinger1

Sounds like you chose to die..

carlwinslow wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:09 PM
I dunno why scouts even need this, i was on my 7l1 cave sham and a scout owned me 3 times in a row, crit shot for 750 if i tried to kite and dot he just run away and stealth and repeat. Maybe they need it vs assassin but its still strange that alb keeps getting random buffs when mid is the realm with the lowest pop.

Thu 27 Aug 2020 12:23 PM by carlwinslow

Why did they need an ability to perma kite if they are already so strong then? I have been gone for a year almost and I come back and its just more custom love for alb since I have been gone

Thu 27 Aug 2020 12:25 PM by Bradekes

carlwinslow wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 12:23 PM
Why did they need an ability to perma kite if they are already so strong then? I have been gone for a year almost and I come back and its just more custom love for alb since I have been gone

Right... Only class hib really whines about is warden sucking in combat and no matter how many threads are made nothing gets done.. the other realms whine about a class for one week and get changes but never hib lol..

Thu 27 Aug 2020 2:36 PM by Sepplord

yeah completely agree, the server has always been biased against >insert your realm here< and is always listening to random whiners from >insert other realm here<
everyone know staff all play >insert other realm here< and have friend in >insert third realm here<

All >insert your realm here< ever gets are nerfs and nerfs, guess we >insert your realm here<-players have mostly accepted our fate and adapted with our superior skills. Playing hardmode sucks but together we are still strong

Thu 27 Aug 2020 4:11 PM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 2:36 PM
yeah completely agree, the server has always been biased against >insert your realm here< and is always listening to random whiners from >insert other realm here<
everyone know staff all play >insert other realm here< and have friend in >insert third realm here<

All >insert your realm here< ever gets are nerfs and nerfs, guess we >insert your realm here<-players have mostly accepted our fate and adapted with our superior skills. Playing hardmode sucks but together we are still strong

About to >insert foot< my statement comes with complete proof. Check all the change logs/update logs there's been no hib specific buffs only nerfs. You can be okay with that but I'm not. Other realms had multiple class buffs albs just filled with custom BS.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:14 AM by Sepplord

that'S the thing though, implication can be wrong despite being factually correct
there are tons of reasons, that might not jump most users mind when they read such a thing, and i doubt you are implying anything but the conclusion that hib is the unloved realm.

Maybe hib is even benefitting from not having a shitty class buffed to mediocrity, because that keeps people away from the still mediocre class and they play one of the good ones instead
Maybe hib doesn't have any shitty classes at all and not getting nerfed even more is a sign of being the loved realm
Maybe serverwide buffs / decisions benefit hib more than alb/mid despite not being specific to hib
Maybe hibernia really is the hated realm and your implication is correct

I don't believe in realm-favorism by the staff, but ironically you will find people in every realm believing that THEIR realm is the hated one. And all have "good arguments" why that is the case. And they aren't lying when they say their arguments, just like you aren't factually incorrect.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 12:52 PM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:14 AM
that'S the thing though, implication can be wrong despite being factually correct
there are tons of reasons, that might not jump most users mind when they read such a thing, and i doubt you are implying anything but the conclusion that hib is the unloved realm.

Maybe hib is even benefitting from not having a shitty class buffed to mediocrity, because that keeps people away from the still mediocre class and they play one of the good ones instead
Maybe hib doesn't have any shitty classes at all and not getting nerfed even more is a sign of being the loved realm
Maybe serverwide buffs / decisions benefit hib more than alb/mid despite not being specific to hib
Maybe hibernia really is the hated realm and your implication is correct

I don't believe in realm-favorism by the staff, but ironically you will find people in every realm believing that THEIR realm is the hated one. And all have "good arguments" why that is the case. And they aren't lying when they say their arguments, just like you aren't factually incorrect.

Dismissing evidence is ignorance and purposefully blinding yourself. Not only did they add this style to scouts but now they're talking about giving scouts Pathfinding buffs in the bow line then nerfing rangers spec points because they combine their buffs to archery too??

Where scout gets full benefit of the added buffs but ranger gets no benefit just nuetral change. That is enough to tell me the staff isn't thinking with pure logic when they're buffing alb up.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 1:07 PM by DinoTriz

If they take away the shield snare(root), they should buff melee damage and/or defenses.

Let Scouts wear chain, give them Evade 5 or something.

Or just give them a spell line like the other archers.

Hunters get pet.

Rangers get dual wield.

Scouts get shield.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 1:32 PM by

gruenesschaf

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 4:11 PM
About to >insert foot< my statement comes with complete proof. Check all the change logs/update logs there's been no hib specific buffs only nerfs. You can be okay with that but I'm not. Other realms had multiple class buffs albs just filled with custom BS.

Good to see that you apparently ignore all alb only or mid only nerfs in this. Please tell me how many buffs the svg got or the warrior or the armsman or the theurgist or the sorc or the cabalist?
Could it possibly be that if it looks like a class is in a good state nothing is done about it and hence the hib classes aside from the champion, which received the debuff value buff, were considered to be in a good / ok place aside from / after the systematic changes like nnf ras?

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 4:11 PM
Where scout gets full benefit of the added buffs but ranger gets no benefit just nuetral change. That is enough to tell me the staff isn't thinking with pure logic when they're buffing alb up.

You could try reading the initial post that proposes those changes, you'd find some text saying that a goal is a reduction in ranger population, that is basically saying a small ranger nerf is a goal.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 4:15 PM by gotwqqd

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 1:07 PM
If they take away the shield snare(root), they should buff melee damage and/or defenses.

Let Scouts wear chain, give them Evade 5 or something.

Or just give them a spell line like the other archers.

Hunters get pet.

Rangers get dual wield.

Scouts get shield.

Shield anytime damage attack with tohit bonus and reduced endo cost

Fri 28 Aug 2020 4:34 PM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 1:32 PM
Good to see that you apparently ignore all alb only or mid only nerfs in this. Please tell me how many buffs the svg got or the warrior or the armsman or the theurgist or the sorc or the cabalist?

Could it possibly be that if it looks like a class is in a good state nothing is done about it and hence the hib classes aside from the champion, which received the debuff value buff, were considered to be in a good / ok place aside from / after the systematic changes like nnf ras?

You could try reading the initial post that proposes those changes, you'd find some text saying that a goal is a reduction in ranger population, that is basically saying a small ranger nerf is a goal.

So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs. Maybe I omitted that information. Minstrel received nerfs, though they are still very very strong and are in very high numbers. BD received a nerf for their LT reuse timer.

It doesn't excuse the fact that Hib hasn't received any buff solely for them.

You say champs received a buff via increasing their debuffs on buffed targets, which isn't really a buff for hib, many other classes have spec debuffs that I assume are benefiting from this change as well.

Maybe you can get a chance to prove me wrong on this one as it is an assumption, maybe debuff procs also benefit from this change?

Please don't misunderstand as I do know the intentions of your buffs are in the best interest of the game and some were needed. It's not easy to have a perfect solution as RPG games have so many variables to work with.

The cool thing about DAoC is most of the abilities are not crazy like in WoW and it is easier to assign a Utility value on the abilities seeings they mostly follow a basic standardization across the realms/classes.

This also makes it easier to spot things that are unbalancing the scale.

The idea that rangers need nerfed(even slighty) because of their population is both a false notion and inevitably going to be the case. I'll give you a small dose of why that is as this is already way too long of a post.

Hib lacks solo toons. Alb/mid have minstrel/skald as their speed classes, which can both solo by staying away from danger. Hib only has stealth classes to avoid this issue. So if you want to lower the population of rangers you'd have to make bards solo capable. Which is stupid but it's clearly the fact.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:09 PM by Neso

Bradekes wrote: So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs...

<snip>

At this point you seem to be brain dumping random thoughts for the sake of keeping the thread alive.

I understand everyone has love for a specific realm, but you're taking it to the extreme.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:31 PM by Bradekes

Neso wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:09 PM
Bradekes wrote: So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs...

<snip>

At this point you seem to be brain dumping random thoughts for the sake of keeping the thread alive.

I understand everyone has love for a specific realm, but you're taking it to the extreme.

None of it random

Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:56 PM by Forlornhope

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:31 PM
Neso wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:09 PM
Bradekes wrote: So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs...

<snip>

At this point you seem to be brain dumping random thoughts for the sake of keeping the thread alive.

I understand everyone has love for a specific realm, but you're taking it to the extreme.

None of it random

I am curious, what exactly do you think needs a buff in hib?

Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:58 PM by DinoTriz

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:56 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:31 PM
Neso wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:09 PM
Bradekes wrote: So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs...

<snip>

At this point you seem to be brain dumping random thoughts for the sake of keeping the thread alive.

I understand everyone has love for a specific realm, but you're taking it to the extreme.

None of it random

I am curious, what exactly do you think needs a buff in hib?

Longer baseline stuns for all casters

Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:00 PM by Lokkjim

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 4:34 PM
So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs. Maybe I omitted that information. Minstrel received nerfs, though they are still very very strong and are in very high numbers. BD received a nerf for their LT reuse timer.

It doesn't excuse the fact that Hib hasn't received any buff solely for them.

You say champs received a buff via increasing their debuffs on buffed targets, which isn't really a buff for hib, many other classes have spec debuffs that I assume are benefiting from this change as well.

Maybe you can get a chance to prove me wrong on this one as it is an assumption, maybe debuff procs also benefit from this change?

Please don't misunderstand as I do know the intentions of your buffs are in the best interest of the game and some were needed. It's not easy to have a perfect solution as RPG games have so many variables to work with.

The cool thing about DAoC is most of the abilities are not crazy like in WoW and it is easier to assign a Utility value on the abilities seeings they mostly follow a basic standardization across the realms/classes.

This also makes it easier to spot things that are unbalancing the scale.

The idea that rangers need nerfed(even slighty) because of their population is both a false notion and inevitably going to be the case. I'll give you a small dose of why that is as this is already way too long of a post.

Hib lacks solo toons. Alb/mid have minstrel/skald as their speed classes, which can both solo by staying away from danger. Hib only has stealth classes to avoid this issue. So if you want to lower the population of rangers you'd have to make bards solo capable. Which is stupid but it's clearly the fact.

So your prerequisites for being able to solo are either speed or stealth? Guess all you solo champs and valewalkers aren't allowed to solo anymore. Nevermind the solo bards running around very rarely, they aren't supposed to do that either.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:22 PM by Bradekes

glad all you noobs are okay with rangers getting nerfed.. I'm trying to argue logically. You like the shield snares and scouts with self buffs great.. will just be another notch in the alb buff epidemic with a hint of hib nerf..

I'll just end up quitting because the trend has been negative and doesn't seem to be slowing down, as I don't enjoy easy mode realms or realms that are gimped. I play all the realms I just think hib gets the short stick and everyone is okay with that.

Also yes speed or stealth are the only true solo classes in this game.. if you can't hide or escape from the numbers the numbers win.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:25 PM by DinoTriz

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:22 PM
glad all you noobs are okay with rangers getting nerfed.. I'm trying to argue logically. You like the shield snares and scouts with self buffs great.. will just be another notch in the alb buff epidemic with a hint of hib nerf..

I'll just end up quitting because the trend has been negative and doesn't seem to be slowing down. I play all the realms I just think hib gets the short stick and everyone is okay with that.

Also yes speed or stealth are the only true solo classes in this game.. if you can't hide or escape from the numbers the numbers win.

If you think Hib is getting the short end of the stick, you should play Mid sometime...

Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:33 PM by Forlornhope

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:58 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:56 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:31 PM
Neso wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:09 PM
Bradekes wrote: So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs...

<snip>

At this point you seem to be brain dumping random thoughts for the sake of keeping the thread alive.

I understand everyone has love for a specific realm, but you're taking it to the extreme.

None of it random

I am curious, what exactly do you think needs a buff in hib?

Longer baseline stuns for all casters

That's an unnecessary buff, hib caster groups are in a very good place.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:35 PM by Bradekes

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:25 PM
If you think Hib is getting the short end of the stick, you should play Mid sometime...

Mid is my second realm. I also thought about hunter with this upcoming idea of putting buffs in archery, it will be a pretty good buff for them imo. 35stealth, 44 spear, 40 archery, 32 beastcraft with some points to spare. And then you have dmgadd+pet+str buff pretty legit.

As far as the realm in general I see no real issue with midgard, their classes are solid.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:41 PM by thirian24

Delete stealth classes, give them an equal RR and fully temp'd visiable toon on any realm they choose.

Problem solved

Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:44 PM by Lokkjim

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:41 PM
Delete stealth classes, give them an equal RR and fully temp'd visiable toon on any realm they choose.

Problem solved

Which temps would cost as much as an assassin temp? I might be down for this lol.

In seriousness though, there is this tactic called avoiding the zerg that visible classes do. They also use the environment and run from tower to tower. They don't just stand out in a well-traveled area looking for solos.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:53 PM by Bradekes

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:56 PM
I am curious, what exactly do you think needs a buff in hib?

Hib doesn't need buffed, Hib doesn't need nerfed.

If hib needs anything it's more spec options on it's classes. This has been my point of view throughout my history here. I also know midgard has issues with Hammer being the only viable melee spec but that is different in the fact that their other options aren't exactly gimp as let's say: bard melee, warden melee, mentalism, enchantments, nature.

Only gimp specs in alb are fire magic, reaver non-flexible. I'd say painworking but aoe unbreakable snare is pretty sick.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:55 PM by Cadebrennus

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 4:34 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 1:32 PM
Good to see that you apparently ignore all alb only or mid only nerfs in this. Please tell me how many buffs the svg got or the warrior or the armsman or the theurgist or the sorc or the cabalist?

Could it possibly be that if it looks like a class is in a good state nothing is done about it and hence the hib classes aside from the champion, which received the debuff value buff, were considered to be in a good / ok place aside from / after the systematic changes like nnf ras?

You could try reading the initial post that proposes those changes, you'd find some text saying that a goal is a reduction in ranger population, that is basically saying a small ranger nerf is a goal.

So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs. Maybe I omitted that information. Minstrel received nerfs, though they are still very very strong and are in very high numbers. BD received a nerf for their LT reuse timer.

It doesn't excuse the fact that Hib hasn't received any buff solely for them.

You say champs received a buff via increasing their debuffs on buffed targets, which isn't really a buff for hib, many other classes have spec debuffs that I assume are benefiting from this change as well.

Maybe you can get a chance to prove me wrong on this one as it is an assumption, maybe debuff procs also benefit from this change?

Please don't misunderstand as I do know the intentions of your buffs are in the best interest of the game and some were needed. It's not easy to have a perfect solution as RPG games have so many variables to work with.

The cool thing about DAoC is most of the abilities are not crazy like in WoW and it is easier to assign a Utility value on the abilities seeings they mostly follow a basic standardization across the realms/classes.

This also makes it easier to spot things that are unbalancing the scale.

The idea that rangers need nerfed(even slighty) because of their population is both a false notion and inevitably going to be the case. I'll give you a small dose of why that is as this is already way too long of a post.

Hib lacks solo toons. Alb/mid have minstrel/skald as their speed classes, which can both solo by staying away from danger. Hib only has stealth classes to avoid this issue. So if you want to lower the population of rangers you'd have to make bards solo capable. Which is stupid but it's clearly the fact.

I never considered the soloability aspect of it per realm but man, you are spot on. The whole reason I went from Merc to Ranger back in the classic days was to avoid radar groups because I soloed at least 50% of the time back then.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:57 PM by Cadebrennus

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:33 PM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:58 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:56 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:31 PM
Neso wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:09 PM
Bradekes wrote: So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs...

<snip>

At this point you seem to be brain dumping random thoughts for the sake of keeping the thread alive.

I understand everyone has love for a specific realm, but you're taking it to the extreme.

None of it random

I am curious, what exactly do you think needs a buff in hib?

Longer baseline stuns for all casters

That's an unnecessary buff, hib caster groups are in a very good place.

Your sarcasm detector needs a serious tuning up.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:59 PM by Cadebrennus

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:44 PM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:41 PM
Delete stealth classes, give them an equal RR and fully temp'd visiable toon on any realm they choose.

Problem solved

Which temps would cost as much as an assassin temp? I might be down for this lol.

In seriousness though, there is this tactic called avoiding the zerg that visible classes do. They also use the environment and run from tower to tower. They don't just stand out in a well-traveled area looking for solos.

Most Visi players and Stealther players stand right in the middle of high traffic areas and then bitch about getting run over by the high rate of traffic.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:28 PM by Lokkjim

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:59 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:44 PM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:41 PM
Delete stealth classes, give them an equal RR and fully temp'd visiable toon on any realm they choose.

Problem solved

Which temps would cost as much as an assassin temp? I might be down for this lol.

In seriousness though, there is this tactic called avoiding the zerg that visible classes do. They also use the environment and run from tower to tower. They don't just stand out in a well-traveled area looking for solos.

Most Visi players and Stealther players stand right in the middle of high traffic areas and then bitch about getting run over by the high rate of traffic.

That sounds like a choice they are making.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:33 PM by Cadebrennus

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:59 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:44 PM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:41 PM
Delete stealth classes, give them an equal RR and fully temp'd visiable toon on any realm they choose.

Problem solved

Which temps would cost as much as an assassin temp? I might be down for this lol.

In seriousness though, there is this tactic called avoiding the zerg that visible classes do. They also use the environment and run from tower to tower. They don't just stand out in a well-traveled area looking for solos.

Most Visi players and Stealther players stand right in the middle of high traffic areas and then bitch about getting run over by the high rate of traffic.

That sounds like a choice they are making.

It is absolutely a choice they are making, and then they bitch about the consequences.

Sat 29 Aug 2020 4:58 AM by Forlornhope

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:57 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 7:33 PM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:58 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 6:56 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:31 PM
Neso wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:09 PM
Bradekes wrote: So you are right there have been Alb & Mid nerfs...

<snip>

At this point you seem to be brain dumping random thoughts for the sake of keeping the thread alive.

I understand everyone has love for a specific realm, but you're taking it to the extreme.

None of it random

I am curious, what exactly do you think needs a buff in hib?

Longer baseline stuns for all casters

That's an unnecessary buff, hib caster groups are in a very good place.

Your sarcasm detector needs a serious tuning up.

Yeah I thought the guy who responded to me was the person I was actually asking lol, so I thought it was his serious answer since he's been raving about hib not getting any buffs on like two or three threads at this point.

Sat 29 Aug 2020 7:29 PM by Noashakra

I agree it's a choice, but it's either the highway or there is no action. Today I saw almost nobody trying to go to the EV task on alb, and it was really boring.

Sat 29 Aug 2020 9:13 PM by Siouxsie

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 7:29 PM
I agree it's a choice, but it's either the highway or there is no action. Today I saw almost nobody trying to go to the EV task on alb, and it was really boring.

Perhaps they were tired of being hib stealth zerged by all the fad-of-the-year luri rangers?

Sun 30 Aug 2020 11:02 AM by Noashakra

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 9:13 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Aug 2020 7:29 PM
I agree it's a choice, but it's either the highway or there is no action. Today I saw almost nobody trying to go to the EV task on alb, and it was really boring.

Perhaps they were tired of being hib stealth zerged by all the fad-of-the-year luri rangers?

Shut up man, you played at 4+ at the relic gate until you were 10L, you have no right to open you mouth, you are one of the worst people qualified to post here.
I play solo and in zones where the zerg is rare, so wtf are you talking about.

You gaslight on everypost again and then accuse others to do what you are only capable to do, one line post without any substance.
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Siouxsi
With stats like this, why are you talking?

Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:17 PM by Fiatil

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 4:34 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 1:32 PM
Good to see that you apparently ignore all alb only or mid only nerfs in this. Please tell me how many buffs the svg got or the warrior or the armsman or the theurgist or the sorc or the cabalist?

Could it possibly be that if it looks like a class is in a good state nothing is done about it and hence the hib classes aside from the champion, which received the debuff value buff, were considered to be in a good / ok place aside from / after the systematic changes like nnf ras?

You could try reading the initial post that proposes those changes, you'd find some text saying that a goal is a reduction in ranger population, that is basically saying a small ranger nerf is a goal.
The idea that rangers need nerfed(even slighty) because of their population is both a false notion and inevitably going to be the case. I'll give you a small dose of why that is as this is already way too long of a post.

Hib lacks solo toons. Alb/mid have minstrel/skald as their speed classes, which can both solo by staying away from danger. Hib only has stealth classes to avoid this issue. So if you want to lower the population of rangers you'd have to make bards solo capable. Which is stupid but it's clearly the fact.

I trimmed out most of it, but this part is a really good point. I hadn't really considered it up until this point, but it's a really solid explanation of why rangers are more overpopulated than hunters or scouts. Rangers are a worse solo class than hunters and scouts, but Hibs don't have other practical options. And yes, "practical options" are classes with stealth or speed 5 -- there's a reason skalds and minstrels are so popular. I love Hibernia, and had to pick a solo class in Hibernia to play the realm I love. I would vastly prefer a solo class with the abilities of a Skald or a Minstrel, or a scout or hunter (particularly scout with all of their shield CC) than a ranger. But I don't have those choices -- I have ranger and nightshade and don't want to juggle 50 weapons like an assassin (it's weird that this is the meta that was decided on, as it's super clunky but that's for another day) , so ranger it is. I sincerely doubt I'm the only one who went through that thought process to wind up at ranger. It's unfortunate that the devs want to reduce the ranger population, when my only realistic outlet is to switch realms to a realm I don't like because they have better solo classes. It would be easier to stomach if rangers weren't already the worst solo archer -- it's weird having my below average solo character get a direct nerf to their ability to solo, when drastically better solo classes in other realms exist already, all because the realm I love has so many of its solo players concentrated in our only 2 practical options.

Apologies if that isn't 100% on topic -- the quote is from this thread, and I hadn't seen the devs address this directly in the archery thread but did see your post here doing so.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:13 PM by Lokkjim

Fiatil wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:17 PM
I trimmed out most of it, but this part is a really good point. I hadn't really considered it up until this point, but it's a really solid explanation of why rangers are more overpopulated than hunters or scouts. Rangers are a worse solo class than hunters and scouts, but Hibs don't have other practical options. And yes, "practical options" are classes with stealth or speed 5 -- there's a reason skalds and minstrels are so popular. I love Hibernia, and had to pick a solo class in Hibernia to play the realm I love. I would vastly prefer a solo class with the abilities of a Skald or a Minstrel, or a scout or hunter (particularly scout with all of their shield CC) than a ranger. But I don't have those choices -- I have ranger and nightshade and don't want to juggle 50 weapons like an assassin (it's weird that this is the meta that was decided on, as it's super clunky but that's for another day) , so ranger it is. I sincerely doubt I'm the only one who went through that thought process to wind up at ranger. It's unfortunate that the devs want to reduce the ranger population, when my only realistic outlet is to switch realms to a realm I don't like because they have better solo classes. It would be easier to stomach if rangers weren't already the worst solo archer -- it's weird having my below average solo character get a direct nerf to their ability to solo, when drastically better solo classes in other realms exist already, all because the realm I love has so many of its solo players concentrated in our only 2 practical options.

Apologies if that isn't 100% on topic -- the quote is from this thread, and I hadn't seen the devs address this directly in the archery thread but did see your post here doing so.

Ok, I can accept that solos are stealth or have speed, but if Rangers are supposed to be one of Hib's main solo classes, where are all the solo Rangers? Don't get me wrong, I see them out there, but there are more groups of rangers than solos.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:26 PM by Fiatil

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:13 PM
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:17 PM
I trimmed out most of it, but this part is a really good point. I hadn't really considered it up until this point, but it's a really solid explanation of why rangers are more overpopulated than hunters or scouts. Rangers are a worse solo class than hunters and scouts, but Hibs don't have other practical options. And yes, "practical options" are classes with stealth or speed 5 -- there's a reason skalds and minstrels are so popular. I love Hibernia, and had to pick a solo class in Hibernia to play the realm I love. I would vastly prefer a solo class with the abilities of a Skald or a Minstrel, or a scout or hunter (particularly scout with all of their shield CC) than a ranger. But I don't have those choices -- I have ranger and nightshade and don't want to juggle 50 weapons like an assassin (it's weird that this is the meta that was decided on, as it's super clunky but that's for another day) , so ranger it is. I sincerely doubt I'm the only one who went through that thought process to wind up at ranger. It's unfortunate that the devs want to reduce the ranger population, when my only realistic outlet is to switch realms to a realm I don't like because they have better solo classes. It would be easier to stomach if rangers weren't already the worst solo archer -- it's weird having my below average solo character get a direct nerf to their ability to solo, when drastically better solo classes in other realms exist already, all because the realm I love has so many of its solo players concentrated in our only 2 practical options.

Apologies if that isn't 100% on topic -- the quote is from this thread, and I hadn't seen the devs address this directly in the archery thread but did see your post here doing so.

Ok, I can accept that solos are stealth or have speed, but if Rangers are supposed to be one of Hib's main solo classes, where are all the solo Rangers? Don't get me wrong, I see them out there, but there are more groups of rangers than solos.

That one I can't answer. If I tell you where I'm standing in the frontier right now I lose the element of surprise

It's kind of all I have ya know?

The volley nerf has only been in effect for a few days. I'm hopeful that that gradually cuts down on the ranger zergs and large groups that are frustrating so many people. The volley zergs seemed to be the main complaint, and those are effectively dead now.

If all of the rangers just switch to 8 man /assist zergs on regular shots....that is unfortunate, and I'm open to changes that affect stealther groups specifically, or even something that makes more than a few archers attacking the same target do less damage.

I legitimately do think stealth zergs suck, and I'm not petitioning for rangers to keep their damage edge for the sake of those people. I would love for rangers to lose a bit of damage in exchange for some crowd control like scouts! That would be amazing for solo play. The developers were floating around the idea of CC arrows before they buffed damage -- maybe that was the better solution after all. But yeah I would be thrilled if we found a way to nerf large groups of archers without dinging ranger solo play or even helping it out a bit.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:29 PM by gotwqqd

Fiatil wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:26 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:13 PM
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:17 PM
I trimmed out most of it, but this part is a really good point. I hadn't really considered it up until this point, but it's a really solid explanation of why rangers are more overpopulated than hunters or scouts. Rangers are a worse solo class than hunters and scouts, but Hibs don't have other practical options. And yes, "practical options" are classes with stealth or speed 5 -- there's a reason skalds and minstrels are so popular. I love Hibernia, and had to pick a solo class in Hibernia to play the realm I love. I would vastly prefer a solo class with the abilities of a Skald or a Minstrel, or a scout or hunter (particularly scout with all of their shield CC) than a ranger. But I don't have those choices -- I have ranger and nightshade and don't want to juggle 50 weapons like an assassin (it's weird that this is the meta that was decided on, as it's super clunky but that's for another day) , so ranger it is. I sincerely doubt I'm the only one who went through that thought process to wind up at ranger. It's unfortunate that the devs want to reduce the ranger population, when my only realistic outlet is to switch realms to a realm I don't like because they have better solo classes. It would be easier to stomach if rangers weren't already the worst solo archer -- it's weird having my below average solo character get a direct nerf to their ability to solo, when drastically better solo classes in other realms exist already, all because the realm I love has so many of its solo players concentrated in our only 2 practical options.

Apologies if that isn't 100% on topic -- the quote is from this thread, and I hadn't seen the devs address this directly in the archery thread but did see your post here doing so.

Ok, I can accept that solos are stealth or have speed, but if Rangers are supposed to be one of Hib's main solo classes, where are all the solo Rangers? Don't get me wrong, I see them out there, but there are more groups of rangers than solos.

That one I can't answer. If I tell you where I'm standing in the frontier right now I lose the element of surprise It's kind of all I have ya know?

The volley nerf has only been in effect for a few days. I'm hopeful that that gradually cuts down on the ranger zergs and large groups that are frustrating so many people. The volley zergs seemed to be the main complaint, and those are effectively dead now.

If all of the rangers just switch to 8 man /assist zergs on regular shots....that is unfortunate, and I'm open to changes that affect stealther groups specifically, or even something that makes more than a few archers attacking the same target.

I legitimately do think stealth zergs suck, and I'm not petitioning for rangers to keep their damage edge for the sake of those people. I would love for rangers to lose a bit of damage in exchange for some crowd control like scouts! That would be amazing for solo play. The developers were floating around the idea of CC arrows before they buffed damage -- maybe that was the better solution after all. But yeah I would be thrilled if we found a way to nerf large groups of archers without dinging ranger solo play or even helping it out a bit.

It’s not a volley issue(my opinion) is ranged/stealth.
Assassin population has dropped. Seems like they all play ranger or hunter.
Flags seem to have 4+ (I’ve seen 8+) of these classes assisting on anything short of an 8man or small man with good cc classes.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:45 PM by Fiatil

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:29 PM
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:26 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:13 PM
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:17 PM
I trimmed out most of it, but this part is a really good point. I hadn't really considered it up until this point, but it's a really solid explanation of why rangers are more overpopulated than hunters or scouts. Rangers are a worse solo class than hunters and scouts, but Hibs don't have other practical options. And yes, "practical options" are classes with stealth or speed 5 -- there's a reason skalds and minstrels are so popular. I love Hibernia, and had to pick a solo class in Hibernia to play the realm I love. I would vastly prefer a solo class with the abilities of a Skald or a Minstrel, or a scout or hunter (particularly scout with all of their shield CC) than a ranger. But I don't have those choices -- I have ranger and nightshade and don't want to juggle 50 weapons like an assassin (it's weird that this is the meta that was decided on, as it's super clunky but that's for another day) , so ranger it is. I sincerely doubt I'm the only one who went through that thought process to wind up at ranger. It's unfortunate that the devs want to reduce the ranger population, when my only realistic outlet is to switch realms to a realm I don't like because they have better solo classes. It would be easier to stomach if rangers weren't already the worst solo archer -- it's weird having my below average solo character get a direct nerf to their ability to solo, when drastically better solo classes in other realms exist already, all because the realm I love has so many of its solo players concentrated in our only 2 practical options.

Apologies if that isn't 100% on topic -- the quote is from this thread, and I hadn't seen the devs address this directly in the archery thread but did see your post here doing so.

Ok, I can accept that solos are stealth or have speed, but if Rangers are supposed to be one of Hib's main solo classes, where are all the solo Rangers? Don't get me wrong, I see them out there, but there are more groups of rangers than solos.

That one I can't answer. If I tell you where I'm standing in the frontier right now I lose the element of surprise It's kind of all I have ya know?

The volley nerf has only been in effect for a few days. I'm hopeful that that gradually cuts down on the ranger zergs and large groups that are frustrating so many people. The volley zergs seemed to be the main complaint, and those are effectively dead now.

If all of the rangers just switch to 8 man /assist zergs on regular shots....that is unfortunate, and I'm open to changes that affect stealther groups specifically, or even something that makes more than a few archers attacking the same target.

I legitimately do think stealth zergs suck, and I'm not petitioning for rangers to keep their damage edge for the sake of those people. I would love for rangers to lose a bit of damage in exchange for some crowd control like scouts! That would be amazing for solo play. The developers were floating around the idea of CC arrows before they buffed damage -- maybe that was the better solution after all. But yeah I would be thrilled if we found a way to nerf large groups of archers without dinging ranger solo play or even helping it out a bit.
It’s not a volley issue(my opinion) is ranged/stealth.
Assassin population has dropped. Seems like they all play ranger or hunter.
Flags seem to have 4+ (I’ve seen 8+) of these classes assisting on anything short of an 8man or small man with good cc classes.

Heh yeah, now we're brushing up into a lot of intersecting issues that I'm less certain on. My personal opinion is that we have relatively few assassins because of the weapon swapping meta -- the developers chose to make assassins viable by letting them swap between 50 different weapons with all of the procs and poisons....and man that is an incredibly clunky and terrible playstyle. It's certainly expensive too. I think you would have a more enjoyable game if you went the other way and balanced them around not being able to switch weapons constantly (and removed their ability to do so), but I know tons of people will disagree with me on that. I'm personally open to making large groups of stealthers (more than 3 or 4) even more visible than they are now too, but anticipate lots of disagreement there too. I've also seen the idea thrown out of making the light tanks more solo friendly by giving them some of the abilities they have on live, but I guess that wouldn't make people stop running 8 man stealth zergs -- it would just pull solo players away. It would help lower the ranger pop as a whole, but maybe not the issue you're concerned with.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 8:57 PM by gotwqqd

Fiatil wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:45 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:29 PM
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:26 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:13 PM
Fiatil wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 5:17 PM
I trimmed out most of it, but this part is a really good point. I hadn't really considered it up until this point, but it's a really solid explanation of why rangers are more overpopulated than hunters or scouts. Rangers are a worse solo class than hunters and scouts, but Hibs don't have other practical options. And yes, "practical options" are classes with stealth or speed 5 -- there's a reason skalds and minstrels are so popular. I love Hibernia, and had to pick a solo class in Hibernia to play the realm I love. I would vastly prefer a solo class with the abilities of a Skald or a Minstrel, or a scout or hunter (particularly scout with all of their shield CC) than a ranger. But I don't have those choices -- I have ranger and nightshade and don't want to juggle 50 weapons like an assassin (it's weird that this is the meta that was decided on, as it's super clunky but that's for another day) , so ranger it is. I sincerely doubt I'm the only one who went through that thought process to wind up at ranger. It's unfortunate that the devs want to reduce the ranger population, when my only realistic outlet is to switch realms to a realm I don't like because they have better solo classes. It would be easier to stomach if rangers weren't already the worst solo archer -- it's weird having my below average solo character get a direct nerf to their ability to solo, when drastically better solo classes in other realms exist already, all because the realm I love has so many of its solo players concentrated in our only 2 practical options.

Apologies if that isn't 100% on topic -- the quote is from this thread, and I hadn't seen the devs address this directly in the archery thread but did see your post here doing so.

Ok, I can accept that solos are stealth or have speed, but if Rangers are supposed to be one of Hib's main solo classes, where are all the solo Rangers? Don't get me wrong, I see them out there, but there are more groups of rangers than solos.

That one I can't answer. If I tell you where I'm standing in the frontier right now I lose the element of surprise It's kind of all I have ya know?

The volley nerf has only been in effect for a few days. I'm hopeful that that gradually cuts down on the ranger zergs and large groups that are frustrating so many people. The volley zergs seemed to be the main complaint, and those are effectively dead now.

If all of the rangers just switch to 8 man /assist zergs on regular shots....that is unfortunate, and I'm open to changes that affect stealther groups specifically, or even something that makes more than a few archers attacking the same target.

I legitimately do think stealth zergs suck, and I'm not petitioning for rangers to keep their damage edge for the sake of those people. I would love for rangers to lose a bit of damage in exchange for some crowd control like scouts! That would be amazing for solo play. The developers were floating around the idea of CC arrows before they buffed damage -- maybe that was the better solution after all. But yeah I would be thrilled if we found a way to nerf large groups of archers without dinging ranger solo play or even helping it out a bit.
It’s not a volley issue(my opinion) is ranged/stealth.
Assassin population has dropped. Seems like they all play ranger or hunter.
Flags seem to have 4+ (I’ve seen 8+) of these classes assisting on anything short of an 8man or small man with good cc classes.

Heh yeah, now we're brushing up into a lot of intersecting issues that I'm less certain on. My personal opinion is that we have relatively few assassins because of the weapon swapping meta -- the developers chose to make assassins viable by letting them swap between 50 different weapons with all of the procs and poisons....and man that is an incredibly clunky and terrible playstyle. It's certainly expensive too. I think you would have a more enjoyable game if you went the other way and balanced them around not being able to switch weapons constantly (and removed their ability to do so), but I know tons of people will disagree with me on that. I'm personally open to making large groups of stealthers (more than 3 or 4) even more visible than they are now too, but anticipate lots of disagreement there too. I've also seen the idea thrown out of making the light tanks more solo friendly by giving them some of the abilities they have on live, but I guess that wouldn't make people stop running 8 man stealth zergs -- it would just pull solo players away. It would help lower the ranger pop as a whole, but maybe not the issue you're concerned with.

Regarding swapping
I hate it
For assassins more so but any class.
Should be a penalty for swap. Also think assassins poison should only be applied to equipped weapons.

But I believe the assassin population dropped when the archers got the buff. Or shortly after. Even though the buffs were largely removed it appears the practice of many archers assisting emerged and stayed. Even growing

Mon 31 Aug 2020 9:23 PM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 8:57 PM
Regarding swapping
I hate it
For assassins more so but any class.
Should be a penalty for swap. Also think assassins poison should only be applied to equipped weapons.

But I believe the assassin population dropped when the archers got the buff. Or shortly after. Even though the buffs were largely removed it appears the practice of many archers assisting emerged and stayed. Even growing

To make poisons even harder to apply? No thanks I already have too much to manage after each fight...

Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:28 PM by gotwqqd

Harder ?
No it would be simpler, as you can’t apply in combat you need apply before each fight pick your two.

Of course they need a bump in damage to offset some of this

Tue 1 Sep 2020 10:51 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Harder ?
No it would be simpler, as you can’t apply in combat you need apply before each fight pick your two.

Of course they need a bump in damage to offset some of this

Yeah and what happen when people resist your poisons ? Also what happens when the 30s are over? You sit down?

And this is only the tip of the iceberg...

Tue 1 Sep 2020 11:02 AM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 10:51 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Harder ?
No it would be simpler, as you can’t apply in combat you need apply before each fight pick your two.

Of course they need a bump in damage to offset some of this

Yeah and what happen when people resist your poisons ? Also what happens when the 30s are over? You sit down?

And this is only the tip of the iceberg...

Same thing that happens when a casters cc is resisted.

Tue 1 Sep 2020 1:22 PM by Lokkjim

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 11:02 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 10:51 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:28 PM
Harder ?
No it would be simpler, as you can’t apply in combat you need apply before each fight pick your two.

Of course they need a bump in damage to offset some of this

Yeah and what happen when people resist your poisons ? Also what happens when the 30s are over? You sit down?

And this is only the tip of the iceberg...
Same thing that happens when a casters cc is resisted.

A caster could just recast a CC. With your option assassins have to run away because they can't apply poison in combat.

Tue 1 Sep 2020 2:03 PM by Horus

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:13 PM
Ok, I can accept that solos are stealth or have speed, but if Rangers are supposed to be one of Hib's main solo classes, where are all the solo Rangers? Don't get me wrong, I see them out there, but there are more groups of rangers than solos.

Don't mistake havnig multiple rangers in a particular location as "groups". I've never grouped on my ranger with another stealth. That being said like many classes looking for action you go where the action is...

For example...
I see death spam in CG. It tells me there is someone there ganking expers. So I go and setup a snipe position. I am not in any communication with any other rangers but they see the same death spam I do so they head there too. We wait and watch. As soon as an assassin / minst /skald attacks an exper I attack from range as that is what I do....maybe two other rangers do the same as they have the same thoughts I do. There is nothing organized, it is just the design of the game.

Same with flags. Archers are like sharks. We do not travel in packs organized but we know the places that put us in the best position to get kills.

If I just roam around on bridges or docks I am dead. Why would I do that? Why would anyone other than classes that are equipped to have a chance in melee or escape? At least scouts can escape. If you are a ranger and someone/anyone gets into melee range you are dead. That is like telling a sorc not use bolt range mezz but to get up close and fight fair. Or telling an assassin not to Vanish, or a minstrel not to SoS away, or a caster not to /assist a debuffer.

Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:27 PM by Noashakra

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 1:22 PM
A caster could just recast a CC. With your option assassins have to run away because they can't apply poison in combat.

Yep... The tip of the iceberg...
You can't even use the snare poison anymore. It destroys the skill ceiling of the asn...
Because man, atm you can spot straight the noobs who don't use their asn well. I can give you a list of people that don't even take care about their poisons during a fight.

Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:33 PM by Lokkjim

Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 2:03 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:13 PM
Ok, I can accept that solos are stealth or have speed, but if Rangers are supposed to be one of Hib's main solo classes, where are all the solo Rangers? Don't get me wrong, I see them out there, but there are more groups of rangers than solos.

Don't mistake havnig multiple rangers in a particular location as "groups". I've never grouped on my ranger with another stealth. That being said like many classes looking for action you go where the action is...

For example...
I see death spam in CG. It tells me there is someone there ganking expers. So I go and setup a snipe position. I am not in any communication with any other rangers but they see the same death spam I do so they head there too. We wait and watch. As soon as an assassin / minst /skald attacks an exper I attack from range as that is what I do....maybe two other rangers do the same as they have the same thoughts I do. There is nothing organized, it is just the design of the game.

Same with flags. Archers are like sharks. We do not travel in packs organized but we know the places that put us in the best position to get kills.

If I just roam around on bridges or docks I am dead. Why would I do that? Why would anyone other than classes that are equipped to have a chance in melee or escape? At least scouts can escape. If you are a ranger and someone/anyone gets into melee range you are dead. That is like telling a sorc not use bolt range mezz but to get up close and fight fair. Or telling an assassin not to Vanish, or a minstrel not to SoS away, or a caster not to /assist a debuffer.

Or telling Rangers to not hang out near the zergs. Had to add that one for you.

I'm glad you are one of the few that doesn't hang out at the docks or bridges. Good for you. That doesn't detract from the fact that there are more groups of rangers at flags, bridges, docks, zergs, what have you, than there are solo Rangers. You can say archers are like sharks, sure, solo archers are. But seriously, play on another realm, go running around and you'll see the groups of rangers everywhere. And Rangers can escape, use your tools, if you don't have a melee snare, that's your choice, you gimped yourself for the sniper spec. Don't say you don't have tools to escape, you just didn't spec into them to use your escape tools to their utmost abilities.

Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:37 PM by Astaa

Devs. We don't want to balance 1v1
Also Devs. We have given scouts a snare with no immunity to help 1v1.

Common pattern when it comes to Albion...

...I'll just go ahead and trash play until solo is viable.

Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:48 PM by Bradekes

Why hasn't this been changed to a style proc with a root spell instead of a built in melee snare? You can even make the duration longer. This removes the issue of no immunity timer.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:00 PM by nkeplinger1

The people advocating for a nerf to this snare style do realize that scouts have ZERO melee on this server correct? With everyone on the server in NF having at least purge 2, slam isn't a viable option for scouts solo. The root style is literally scouts only tool for survival if someone is able to close distance on a scout. And realistically, there are only like 3 classes that the snare style impacts greatly when 1v1 with a scout (warrior, hero, zerker).. but even a warrior and hero can just engage the scout when he kites them. Most other classes, when the snare is used on them can use range abilities to keep the scout interrupted. At that point, the scout can only run away to safety. The snare style isn't as op as youre making it out to be.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:48 PM
Why hasn't this been changed to a style proc with a root spell instead of a built in melee snare? You can even make the duration longer. This removes the issue of no immunity timer.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:05 PM by Cadebrennus

nkeplinger1 wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:00 PM
The people advocating for a nerf to this snare style do realize that scouts have ZERO melee on this server correct? With everyone on the server in NF having at least purge 2, slam isn't a viable option for scouts solo. The root style is literally scouts only tool for survival if someone is able to close distance on a scout. And realistically, there are only like 3 classes that the snare style impacts greatly when 1v1 with a scout (warrior, hero, zerker).. but even a warrior and hero can just engage the scout when he kites them. Most other classes, when the snare is used on them can use range abilities to keep the scout interrupted. At that point, the scout can only run away to safety. The snare style isn't as op as youre making it out to be.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:48 PM
Why hasn't this been changed to a style proc with a root spell instead of a built in melee snare? You can even make the duration longer. This removes the issue of no immunity timer.

You do realise that if a Scout puts nothing into their melee then their return on investment is.... nothing.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:53 PM by Lokkjim

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:05 PM
You do realise that if a Scout puts nothing into their melee then their return on investment is.... nothing.

I'm sure we've been over this in another thread, but a scout with 50 weapon won't be able to kill a thing before something adds unless the fight is in the middle of nowhere. At that point, you have to be in a group, which is not what we should be advocating as there are enough complaints about stealth groups. Scouts can really only do the sniper spec, that's probably one of the reasons why they got the snare. Rangers can go melee or hybrid and hunters have two-hander and pet.

So, in essence, the return on any investment into melee isn't worth it on a solo scout.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:15 PM by Bradekes

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:53 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:05 PM
You do realise that if a Scout puts nothing into their melee then their return on investment is.... nothing.

I'm sure we've been over this in another thread, but a scout with 50 weapon won't be able to kill a thing before something adds unless the fight is in the middle of nowhere. At that point, you have to be in a group, which is not what we should be advocating as there are enough complaints about stealth groups. Scouts can really only do the sniper spec, that's probably one of the reasons why they got the snare. Rangers can go melee or hybrid and hunters have two-hander and pet.

So, in essence, the return on any investment into melee isn't worth it on a solo scout.

And why would an actual root vs melee snare hurt a scout? You could then stun>they purge>root>run

Literally every caster with root has to worry about immunity timer scout should follow suit

You can always re-engage after their stun immunity has gone. You'd know their purge was down

Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:39 PM by Lokkjim

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:15 PM
And why would an actual root vs melee snare hurt a scout? You could then stun>they purge>root>run

Literally every caster with root has to worry about immunity timer scout should follow suit

You can always re-engage after their stun immunity has gone. You'd know their purge was down

I wasn't talking about how the snare works, I was talking about how their damage is trash even if they have 50 weapon spec. They have a 1hander with no damage add, compared to ranger dw and damage add, and hunter 2 hander and pet. Scouts can't rely on their melee damage.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 7:23 PM by nkeplinger1

Casters with snare/root also do more dps than scouts with a faster cast time.. also usually more group oriented characters..i thought the idea was to have less stealth groups? Making stealth classes more dependent on groups works in no ones favor.

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:15 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:53 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 4:05 PM
You do realise that if a Scout puts nothing into their melee then their return on investment is.... nothing.

I'm sure we've been over this in another thread, but a scout with 50 weapon won't be able to kill a thing before something adds unless the fight is in the middle of nowhere. At that point, you have to be in a group, which is not what we should be advocating as there are enough complaints about stealth groups. Scouts can really only do the sniper spec, that's probably one of the reasons why they got the snare. Rangers can go melee or hybrid and hunters have two-hander and pet.

So, in essence, the return on any investment into melee isn't worth it on a solo scout.

And why would an actual root vs melee snare hurt a scout? You could then stun>they purge>root>run

Literally every caster with root has to worry about immunity timer scout should follow suit

You can always re-engage after their stun immunity has gone. You'd know their purge was down

Wed 2 Sep 2020 7:24 PM by gromet12

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:39 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:15 PM
And why would an actual root vs melee snare hurt a scout? You could then stun>they purge>root>run

Literally every caster with root has to worry about immunity timer scout should follow suit

You can always re-engage after their stun immunity has gone. You'd know their purge was down

I wasn't talking about how the snare works, I was talking about how their damage is trash even if they have 50 weapon spec. They have a 1hander with no damage add, compared to ranger dw and damage add, and hunter 2 hander and pet. Scouts can't rely on their melee damage.

Better defense compared to other archers and you can run a damage add if you wanted right?

Wed 2 Sep 2020 7:30 PM by nkeplinger1

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 7:24 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:39 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:15 PM
And why would an actual root vs melee snare hurt a scout? You could then stun>they purge>root>run

Literally every caster with root has to worry about immunity timer scout should follow suit

You can always re-engage after their stun immunity has gone. You'd know their purge was down

I wasn't talking about how the snare works, I was talking about how their damage is trash even if they have 50 weapon spec. They have a 1hander with no damage add, compared to ranger dw and damage add, and hunter 2 hander and pet. Scouts can't rely on their melee damage.

Better defense compared to other archers and you can run a damage add if you wanted right?

Take the 99% snare from scouts, increase their melee so its competitive with the other archers so they can stand toe to toe with people and not rely on kiting and the problem would be solved. The increased defense you claim a scout has is a terrible argument also.. ranger dw reduces a scouts block rate. My scout with 320 dex and mob 5 has somewhere around a 30% block rate against dw players.. also, using a small shield they can only block one target at a time. A blue hunter pet hits somewhere around 100 dmg a swing with the hunter using a 2h weapon. Most times a hunter pet does more melee dmg than scouts..

Wed 2 Sep 2020 8:31 PM by Saroi

nkeplinger1 wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 7:30 PM
The increased defense you claim a scout has is a terrible argument also.. ranger dw reduces a scouts block rate. My scout with 320 dex and mob 5 has somewhere around a 30% block rate against dw players.. also, using a small shield they can only block one target at a time.

The argument isn't terrible since on Phoenix the cut for block chance is 1/4 instead of 1/2. Fighting vs. MoB 8-9 scouts is the most annoying thing for me, because they have up to 40-45% block chance. I'd rather fight a melee Ranger than a Scout anytime because it is easier and faster to win vs. the Ranger. Scout is the only stealther who has defense RA's(besides HP RA's) because for the others who rely on evade, dodger has been removed.

Small shield can block infinite numbers of attackers. It will just get a penalty to block chance for the second or more attacker.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 9:31 PM by Lokkjim

Having a great defense doesn't mean a thing if you can't kill anything before someone adds in. Pure tanks probably still kill faster than a scout in melee, that's how bad it is. Sure it might be annoying to kill them, but that doesn't mean they will reliably win against a target with their great defense and terrible melee.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 9:40 PM by gromet12

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 9:31 PM
Having a great defense doesn't mean a thing if you can't kill anything before someone adds in. Pure tanks probably still kill faster than a scout in melee, that's how bad it is. Sure it might be annoying to kill them, but that doesn't mean they will reliably win against a target with their great defense and terrible melee.

Pure tanks should excel at something don't you think? Being pure tanks have better defense I hope a majority of them roll over sins/archers

Wed 2 Sep 2020 9:49 PM by Cadebrennus

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:39 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 5:15 PM
And why would an actual root vs melee snare hurt a scout? You could then stun>they purge>root>run

Literally every caster with root has to worry about immunity timer scout should follow suit

You can always re-engage after their stun immunity has gone. You'd know their purge was down

I wasn't talking about how the snare works, I was talking about how their damage is trash even if they have 50 weapon spec. They have a 1hander with no damage add, compared to ranger dw and damage add, and hunter 2 hander and pet. Scouts can't rely on their melee damage.

Alb has the only Thrust (also offhand usable) DA weapon that procs very reliably. In addition there's nothing stopping a Scout from using a DA charge or putting DA procs on their armor or Shield. The PF DA just isn't worth the 46 PF spec so I use a DA charge and have DA proccing armor on my Ranger. You bet your ass my Merc uses the DA proccing Thrust weapon almost 100% of the time.

When it comes to styles Beartooth (off block) and Ratfang (off evade) have 0.90 and 0.85 growth rates, respectively. Neither one requires 50 Thrust, which is a 0.90 GR from evade. 50 Slash has a 0.60+0.90 anytime chain. On my Thrust Merc I use all reactionaries, two from Thrust, one from DW, and positionals from DW.

If you're not using all of the tools available to you it's your fault, not the game's fault.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 9:54 PM by Lokkjim

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 9:40 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 9:31 PM
Having a great defense doesn't mean a thing if you can't kill anything before someone adds in. Pure tanks probably still kill faster than a scout in melee, that's how bad it is. Sure it might be annoying to kill them, but that doesn't mean they will reliably win against a target with their great defense and terrible melee.

Pure tanks should excel at something don't you think? Being pure tanks have better defense I hope a majority of them roll over sins/archers

Yes, but you aren't going to find a solo pure tank as often as you would a solo scout. A pure tank survives longer and kills faster than a melee scout. A stealth class should have the ability to kill faster than a pure tank, melee scout does not kill faster than a pure tank, so melee spec is a waste of time for the scout.

Edit: Merc damage factor is second-highest (22) compared to scout at 19. Scout also has a one-hander, compared to the DW of merc. This would still be relatively slow going to kill someone 1v1, even if you use all the tools available being 50 thrust spec.

Thu 3 Sep 2020 12:55 AM by Phurie

Where did this style come from? Did they need a disengage tool? Why was it needed in the first place and is it going to get toned down or removed?

An anytime 14 second root snare that is not affected by DET and provides no root/snare immunity seems like the best CC/peel style in the game, next to SLAM 9 second stun, which scouts also get.

Any way this gets tweaked in any or all of the following ways?

1. Reduce the duration to just long enough to get out of melee range, say around 5 seconds. 14 seconds feels excessive, especially when there is no immunity after.

2. Change it to a melee snare instead of a root. The current style gets the benefits that other melee snare styles get (not affected by DET, no immunity given), but roots in place instead of just slows movement speed like all other snare styles. What is the precedence for this type of style? It feels outside the bounds of DAOC mechanics

3. Make it a Frontal positional style. If this style was added because Scouts needed a disengage tool, making it Frontal instead of anytime reduces the chance it's used as a peel or CC tool, but would keep the original intent of being used against an enemy hitting you in melee.

4. Add a timer to it's use (I'd recommend 15 minutes to match Purge2 timer). This would make it a limited counter to slam getting purged, but limit it's use as a continuous CC/escape tool. You could make the timer shorter, but I think a counter to a level 2 RA being part of the class kit makes sense vs a 5 minute timer which is 30 RA pts invested.

If this sounds like bitching or complaining to you, it kind of is. Myself and a lot of other people I talk to in game are confused why scouts get this shield style and how it fits in the classic DAOC experience. If scouts needed a buff in the form of a disengage tool, maybe one or more of the above suggestions could help them keep that without giving them the best CC/peel style in the game.

Thu 3 Sep 2020 1:03 AM by DinoTriz

Scouts needed something.

I don't know if it should've been this root style, but they definitely needed something.

If you take away this style, they deserve something in compensation.

Thu 3 Sep 2020 1:20 PM by nkeplinger1

Phurie wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 12:55 AM
Where did this style come from? Did they need a disengage tool? Why was it needed in the first place and is it going to get toned down or removed?

An anytime 14 second root snare that is not affected by DET and provides no root/snare immunity seems like the best CC/peel style in the game, next to SLAM 9 second stun, which scouts also get.

Any way this gets tweaked in any or all of the following ways?

1. Reduce the duration to just long enough to get out of melee range, say around 5 seconds. 14 seconds feels excessive, especially when there is no immunity after.

2. Change it to a melee snare instead of a root. The current style gets the benefits that other melee snare styles get (not affected by DET, no immunity given), but roots in place instead of just slows movement speed like all other snare styles. What is the precedence for this type of style? It feels outside the bounds of DAOC mechanics

3. Make it a Frontal positional style. If this style was added because Scouts needed a disengage tool, making it Frontal instead of anytime reduces the chance it's used as a peel or CC tool, but would keep the original intent of being used against an enemy hitting you in melee.

4. Add a timer to it's use (I'd recommend 15 minutes to match Purge2 timer). This would make it a limited counter to slam getting purged, but limit it's use as a continuous CC/escape tool. You could make the timer shorter, but I think a counter to a level 2 RA being part of the class kit makes sense vs a 5 minute timer which is 30 RA pts invested.

If this sounds like bitching or complaining to you, it kind of is. Myself and a lot of other people I talk to in game are confused why scouts get this shield style and how it fits in the classic DAOC experience. If scouts needed a buff in the form of a disengage tool, maybe one or more of the above suggestions could help them keep that without giving them the best CC/peel style in the game.

These are all good points, but this isn't classic daoc, either. This is a custom server in which the gms/devs hate stealthers. They have already beefed, buffed, then re nerfed archery damage. Scouts don't do a fraction of the damage they did on classic daoc.

Thu 3 Sep 2020 4:20 PM by Cadebrennus

nkeplinger1 wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 1:20 PM
Phurie wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 12:55 AM
Where did this style come from? Did they need a disengage tool? Why was it needed in the first place and is it going to get toned down or removed?

An anytime 14 second root snare that is not affected by DET and provides no root/snare immunity seems like the best CC/peel style in the game, next to SLAM 9 second stun, which scouts also get.

Any way this gets tweaked in any or all of the following ways?

1. Reduce the duration to just long enough to get out of melee range, say around 5 seconds. 14 seconds feels excessive, especially when there is no immunity after.

2. Change it to a melee snare instead of a root. The current style gets the benefits that other melee snare styles get (not affected by DET, no immunity given), but roots in place instead of just slows movement speed like all other snare styles. What is the precedence for this type of style? It feels outside the bounds of DAOC mechanics

3. Make it a Frontal positional style. If this style was added because Scouts needed a disengage tool, making it Frontal instead of anytime reduces the chance it's used as a peel or CC tool, but would keep the original intent of being used against an enemy hitting you in melee.

4. Add a timer to it's use (I'd recommend 15 minutes to match Purge2 timer). This would make it a limited counter to slam getting purged, but limit it's use as a continuous CC/escape tool. You could make the timer shorter, but I think a counter to a level 2 RA being part of the class kit makes sense vs a 5 minute timer which is 30 RA pts invested.

If this sounds like bitching or complaining to you, it kind of is. Myself and a lot of other people I talk to in game are confused why scouts get this shield style and how it fits in the classic DAOC experience. If scouts needed a buff in the form of a disengage tool, maybe one or more of the above suggestions could help them keep that without giving them the best CC/peel style in the game.

These are all good points, but this isn't classic daoc, either. This is a custom server in which the gms/devs hate stealthers. They have already beefed, buffed, then re nerfed archery damage. Scouts don't do a fraction of the damage they did on classic daoc.

You probably remember it from botted Scouts shooting unbotted targets in classic. That's what started the Archer nerfs in the first place

Thu 3 Sep 2020 7:31 PM by gotwqqd

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 4:20 PM
nkeplinger1 wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 1:20 PM
Phurie wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 12:55 AM
Where did this style come from? Did they need a disengage tool? Why was it needed in the first place and is it going to get toned down or removed?

An anytime 14 second root snare that is not affected by DET and provides no root/snare immunity seems like the best CC/peel style in the game, next to SLAM 9 second stun, which scouts also get.

Any way this gets tweaked in any or all of the following ways?

1. Reduce the duration to just long enough to get out of melee range, say around 5 seconds. 14 seconds feels excessive, especially when there is no immunity after.

2. Change it to a melee snare instead of a root. The current style gets the benefits that other melee snare styles get (not affected by DET, no immunity given), but roots in place instead of just slows movement speed like all other snare styles. What is the precedence for this type of style? It feels outside the bounds of DAOC mechanics

3. Make it a Frontal positional style. If this style was added because Scouts needed a disengage tool, making it Frontal instead of anytime reduces the chance it's used as a peel or CC tool, but would keep the original intent of being used against an enemy hitting you in melee.

4. Add a timer to it's use (I'd recommend 15 minutes to match Purge2 timer). This would make it a limited counter to slam getting purged, but limit it's use as a continuous CC/escape tool. You could make the timer shorter, but I think a counter to a level 2 RA being part of the class kit makes sense vs a 5 minute timer which is 30 RA pts invested.

If this sounds like bitching or complaining to you, it kind of is. Myself and a lot of other people I talk to in game are confused why scouts get this shield style and how it fits in the classic DAOC experience. If scouts needed a buff in the form of a disengage tool, maybe one or more of the above suggestions could help them keep that without giving them the best CC/peel style in the game.

These are all good points, but this isn't classic daoc, either. This is a custom server in which the gms/devs hate stealthers. They have already beefed, buffed, then re nerfed archery damage. Scouts don't do a fraction of the damage they did on classic daoc.

You probably remember it from botted Scouts shooting unbotted targets in classic. That's what started the Archer nerfs in the first place

Problem was
If you weren’t voted and roamed around solo/duo/small man without buffs from a realm mate you were fodder

Exact reason why we have combined pots here

Wed 30 Sep 2020 1:55 PM by finyan

Scout also should have a mezz+stun shout....

Its one of the worst implementations i ever have seen. totally not understandable. I bet even scouts say that

Wed 30 Sep 2020 2:09 PM by DinoTriz

finyan wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 1:55 PM
Scout also should have a mezz+stun shout....

Its one of the worst implementations i ever have seen. totally not understandable. I bet even scouts say that

Scouts complain because it doesn't really improve the class. It just gives people (who haven't used the ability) a reason to complain about it.

It reminds me of people getting offended on the behalf of someone else.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 2:12 PM by finyan

So scouts never needed and still don´t need that snare style?
That´s what i wanted to say.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 2:43 PM by DinoTriz

I guess what I'd say is that Scouts would rather have something else.

Is it useful? Sure, it has its moments. But it's nowhere as OP as it appears to be.

It actually comes more in handy in PVE than it does in RVR for me personally.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 3:08 PM by Horus

More scouts online now than rangers so things are working as designed.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 4:49 PM by Messerjockel

There is also a thread under the RVR topic.
Goes on for close to two month if you have not read the comments yet

Flup, hib