Warden changes - Phoenix Freeshard

The Warden class in general gets a lot of use as a PBT/Resist Bot and not much else. Do they need Shield spec? Perhaps not but they could benefit from Mastery of Blocking. A great quality of life change would be to add and allow their class HoT to be castable in-combat. With the lack of a offensive Heal proc this would help position them both in 8v8 groups bringing more utility and help with smallman/solo options. Choosing specs for a Warden is a pain and I am not sure this should ever go away. Now with that said this only became an issue when Warden's got shield spec and ML path Battlemaster. Without those two I see absolutely no reason to not allow minor adjustments like adding MoB and in-combat castable HoT to the Warden class.

Thu 20 Aug 2020 1:50 PM by Lollie

Wardens dont have a HoT spell?

Thu 20 Aug 2020 2:00 PM by inoeth

not sure if the hot is needed but big up for mob! they had it during beta with old RAs

Thu 20 Aug 2020 2:05 PM by Kymatius

Also allowing 2 chants to run at a time.

Thu 20 Aug 2020 2:07 PM by Kymatius

Lollie wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Aug 2020 1:50 PM
Wardens dont have a HoT spell?

Sorry meant to add/allow for the HoT

Thu 20 Aug 2020 3:04 PM by Bradekes

Don't bother.. Warden have no love by the devs. Their concensus is that warden is already in a perfect spot as support class only with minor chances to peel with level 10 snare.

There's been atleast 8+ threads for warden adjustments. Because they have PBT adding anything or adjusting anything is not going to happen.

Now please go ahead and suggest another paladin or friar buff as that is still more likely to happen.

Thu 20 Aug 2020 3:28 PM by Lollie

I'd settle to have my ghetto speed insta cast.

Sun 23 Aug 2020 4:35 PM by Kymatius

So QoL improvements thus far:

Add class HoT and make it in-combat castable
Add Mastery of Blocking
Allow speed chant to be instant

Not a single/any of these would create a different meta but would help the Warden class play effectively as different specs for both solo and small man/8v8 with a little added flavor.

Sun 23 Aug 2020 4:51 PM by Ele

Kymatius wrote: Not a single/any of these would create a different meta but would help the Warden class play effectively as different specs for both solo and small man/8v8 with a little added flavor.

Serious question, do you think warden is excluded from the said play styles? Literally every Hib group I've fought on this server except for the very few full caster setups run a warden. I even saw a few groups ditching a druid since the warden got ns cure. Recalling the last 8vs8 vs Hibs, only in one case there was no warden, and this group was running 5 casters. I play EU pt, don't know if it's different in other time zones.

Kymatius wrote: So QoL improvements thus far:
Add class HoT and make it in-combat castable
Add Mastery of Blocking
Allow speed chant to be instant

Not sure about the HoT tbh, might be a little over the top as HIb groups already have a lot of heals in their group. I could settle with a normal castable HoT though, buffing the limited group heal capability by a reasonable margin. Being castable in combat combined with the current cookie cutter spec of 42 regrowth the heal delve would be too high for being uninteruptable. If it has to be uninteruptable, put it on a 30 secs cooldown maybe?
MoB and instant speed chant sound ok to me.

Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:59 PM by Nephamael

Serious question, do you think warden is excluded from the said play styles? Literally every Hib group I've fought on this server except for the very few full caster setups run a warden. I even saw a few groups ditching a druid since the warden got ns cure. Recalling the last 8vs8 vs Hibs, only in one case there was no warden, and this group was running 5 casters. I play EU pt, don't know if it's different in other time zones.

The reason why all hib grps are forced to run the warden is the body resist. Else tanks die 1shot by a mid/high rr body debuff train.
Hib 8men had to run warden when it even didn't have a nearsight cure - often stating "hey, please always keep body resist up and try to interrupt someone" as the warden's job description.

In comparison to the counterparts friar and sham ofc warden is still underpowered in more than one way.
Especially not upping the warden's dmg table to friar/paladin is completely illogical.
On top of that a castable hot, access to mob and making speed baseline and instant is a good suggestion.

Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:05 PM by Kurbsen

I would never run a hib group without a warden. They bring way too much to your group. Resists are game changer, aotg is a game winner, and twf is a game equalizer (twf on top of other twf, etc). Heals and peels and pbt to help prevent tanks from getting snared. Literally backbone of the hib group imo.

Do I think they should get some other stuff? Sure, add celerity xD

Sun 23 Aug 2020 10:00 PM by Tyrlaan

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 6:59 PM
Serious question, do you think warden is excluded from the said play styles? Literally every Hib group I've fought on this server except for the very few full caster setups run a warden. I even saw a few groups ditching a druid since the warden got ns cure. Recalling the last 8vs8 vs Hibs, only in one case there was no warden, and this group was running 5 casters. I play EU pt, don't know if it's different in other time zones.

The reason why all hib grps are forced to run the warden is the body resist. Else tanks die 1shot by a mid/high rr body debuff train.
Hib 8men had to run warden when it even didn't have a nearsight cure - often stating "hey, please always keep body resist up and try to interrupt someone" as the warden's job description.

In comparison to the counterparts friar and sham ofc warden is still underpowered in more than one way.
Especially not upping the warden's dmg table to friar/paladin is completely illogical.
On top of that a castable hot, access to mob and making speed baseline and instant is a good suggestion.

Wardens are also the reason that only Hib has red Body and Energy resists (where every realm would want these as high as possible, for the damage and CC reduction). That´s quite the damage reduction right there, with red PBT (to foil slams and snares) on top. And major heals. And NS cure. On a Det9 class. Wardens are much better support and healers to their group than Friars (and Shamans - though these have a slightly different role).

I also don´t think MoB or a slightly higher 1h damage table are gonna make a difference or make somebody play a Warden for its melee. Why would you need speed as a baseline spell (which Wardens share with Bards an Druids) when literally every Warden specs high enough Nurture for red speed? Instant speed to switch back from the other chants, why not. Skalds can do that too.

Mon 24 Aug 2020 4:02 AM by gotwqqd

Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Aug 2020 7:05 PM
I would never run a hib group without a warden. They bring way too much to your group. Resists are game changer, aotg is a game winner, and twf is a game equalizer (twf on top of other twf, etc). Heals and peels and pbt to help prevent tanks from getting snared. Literally backbone of the hib group imo.

Do I think they should get some other stuff? Sure, add celerity xD

No to celerity.

The issue is not that wardens aren’t needed or that they don’t fill a group role adequately....it’s simply that they are boring as hell to play.

Tue 25 Aug 2020 2:02 AM by Kymatius

The boring part is what needs addressing and the "only" niche they fill in groups which every reply had touched on; greater heals, resists, Pbt. That's it that's all. This only gives you one maybe two possible specs to actually get a group in Hib. Adding MoB would immediately open up possible solo runs. Combine that with instant cast speed, also helping solo/duo/trio gameplay, and finally adding the in-combat castable HoT and you have a tremendous amount of possible specs. This finally will make the Warden the combat priest that their description suggests.

Tue 25 Aug 2020 7:41 PM by Nephamael

Wardens are also the reason that only Hib has red Body and Energy resists (where every realm would want these as high as possible, for the damage and CC reduction). That´s quite the damage reduction right there, with red PBT (to foil slams and snares) on top.

every realm can spec red resists and sacrifice another specline, like warden has to do it. besides, albs dont rly need red energy resist (vs thane and pbaoe? xD)

And major heals. And NS cure. On a Det9 class. Wardens are much better support and healers to their group than Friars (and Shamans - though these have a slightly different role).

Friar and sham have heals+hot so they are superior healers. sham has disease, ichor and root - making him a cc/rupt monster, imo the impact of a sham is 2-3x that of a warden in a 8v8 if both play exceptionally well.
Friar is closer to even from a 8v8 perspective, but he is a significant melee dps that warden can never be in any push/vs caster scenario friar hugely outperforms warden. Only in a tanker vs tanker warden is better than friar - and the impact is only big vs grps that wrongly split their melee dps vs a pbt grp instead of focusing one target together to negate 95% of pbt impact.

I also don´t think MoB or a slightly higher 1h damage table are gonna make a difference or make somebody play a Warden for its melee. .

There always are a lot of people trying solo warden for some days, before they realize how weak it is and give up. - Friar and pally got the dmg table buff, just give it to warden too, it won't affect 8v8 balance significantly anyway, as warden still has 1h dmg in comparison to pally/friars 2h.

Why would you need speed as a baseline spell (which Wardens share with Bards an Druids) when literally every Warden specs high enough Nurture for red speed? Instant speed to switch back from the other chants, why not. Skalds can do that too

Wardens other than skalds have a very low ammount of specpoints, so unless you go for the standard grp spec you don't have enough specpoints to get red speed.
If specpoints of warden don't get buffed, like other classes had buffs there they need speed to become baseline, to be able to opt for more than one spec. (= less boring)

-
Another idea would be to add positional stuns to give warden more than 1 peel option, but that would be a rework of blade/blunt. (DEVs dont want shieldspec on warden)

Tue 25 Aug 2020 8:36 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 7:41 PM
sham have heals+hot

Nope.

Friggs is not a HoT, it is a regen increase, which ticks once every ten seconds while in combat and not at all on a diseased target.

Tue 25 Aug 2020 8:45 PM by necrolove1

Anything that helps hib groups heal more, is a big NOPE. Sorry but 3-4 healers every 8man is already enough heals.

That being said, I could get on board with MoB, but no Sheild spec.

Tue 25 Aug 2020 9:03 PM by Sabatasso79

Kymatius wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Aug 2020 1:21 PM
Choosing specs for a Warden is a pain and I am not sure this should ever go away.

Is there actually a choice in the matter, if you want groups?

I heard 49 Nurt, 42 reg, 12 weapon and 6 parry was pretty much all the choices you had in the matter otherwise groups deem you not viable. Doesn't seem to matter that this spec is utterly boring. Warden could be fun if people weren't gatekeeping what others specced all the time.

My Warden will have not a point less than 39 blades and I probably have to solo because of it. So be it.

Tue 25 Aug 2020 10:52 PM by Bradekes

Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 9:03 PM
Kymatius wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Aug 2020 1:21 PM
Choosing specs for a Warden is a pain and I am not sure this should ever go away.

Is there actually a choice in the matter, if you want groups?

I heard 49 Nurt, 42 reg, 12 weapon and 6 parry was pretty much all the choices you had in the matter otherwise groups deem you not viable. Doesn't seem to matter that this spec is utterly boring. Warden could be fun if people weren't gatekeeping what others specced all the time.

My Warden will have not a point less than 39 blades and I probably have to solo because of it. So be it.

Solo warden not worth it.. you get minstrel kited every death.

Tue 25 Aug 2020 10:56 PM by Sabatasso79

I'll go my own spec and follow the zerg. Mostly because I detest gatekeeping in games. If people 'prefer' you build a certain class a certain way, and won't group you if you don't... what do you call that?

If it were in a hardcore guild, the situation is different. I'm very casual.

Tue 25 Aug 2020 11:28 PM by Bradekes

Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Aug 2020 10:56 PM
I'll go my own spec and follow the zerg. Mostly because I detest gatekeeping in games. If people 'prefer' you build a certain class a certain way, and won't group you if you don't... what do you call that?

If it were in a hardcore guild, the situation is different. I'm very casual.

I call it a disappointment... I have a level 50 melee warden 39blades... Gets killed by everything... Is not fun, even following zerg gets boring and then you end up with a higher RR useless char

just don't expect much

Also, why are you making melee warden? Do you want the melee haste 1h? Melee ranger does this better with Dual Wield melee haste effect. Level 47 Warden haste = 38% melee attack speed, but also reduces main hand style damage. If you're on a melee ranger you get dex/qui and can reach 250 quickness unlike warden, also if you use 4.2spd MH 2.5 spd OH your getting 21% celerity instead of haste when your offhand swings you also get a nice 50%increase in dmg.. OR if you go pierce you can use 4.3MH and 2.2OH for 25%celerity when your OH swings.

You lack healing tho.. but you get stealth which > warden run speed+heals cause you don't get mowwed down by small man and 8man when you're not getting kited by minstrels

Wed 26 Aug 2020 12:19 AM by Sabatasso79

Well, if it doesn't work I expect to see the weapon spec alternative be removed or buffed. It'spointless having a specline that simply does not work.

Wed 26 Aug 2020 1:20 AM by Kymatius

I am pushing for MoB not Shield as a spec line, adding the HoT and making it castable in-combat, instant cast speed. If they wanted to get extreme they could up their spec points and base damage table. Even if they did all of the above they have made no noticable difference to 8mans, minor boon to smallmans, and a good buff for solo/duo/trio. Again nothing meta changing or game breaking but definitely improvements in QoL

Wed 26 Aug 2020 2:00 AM by thirian24

Hib literally has THE most powerful 8man group running around right now. Even after the amnesia changes, hib 8man comps are ridiculously tough. You want to give them even more because "Wardens aren't fun to play."? Lol

Wardens bring a key role to groups, offering a TON of utility.. and now even cure NS. They have awesome, much needed resists, PBT, cure NS, heals, buffs, snares, AoTG and TWF.. just to name a few. You guys need to stop coming to the forums, crying about "X" class needs "XYZ" because its not super fun to play.

Thats not how any of this works.

Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:20 AM by Bradekes

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 2:00 AM
Hib literally has THE most powerful 8man group running around right now. Even after the amnesia changes, hib 8man comps are ridiculously tough. You want to give them even more because "Wardens aren't fun to play."? Lol

Wardens bring a key role to groups, offering a TON of utility.. and now even cure NS. They have awesome, much needed resists, PBT, cure NS, heals, buffs, snares, AoTG and TWF.. just to name a few. You guys need to stop coming to the forums, crying about "X" class needs "XYZ" because its not super fun to play.

Thats not how any of this works.

Some want more than others. Warden are great in 8man groups for their support you're right. But they could be better in lesser-numbers partys than they are. They are supposed to be hybrid but fail miserablely at 1/2 of their descriptor.

Friar does literally ever aspect of combat better than warden. They hit harder, have higher weaponskill, better styles, have evade 5 (which is better than pbt 1vs1). They get higher quickness from self dex/qui buff which is also their weapons stat. They get reflex attack, and still get self haste, albeit on a timer. Offensive heal proc. They also get endo reduc in their enhancement line not healing. On top of all that friar also has ranged interrupt. they also have better heals. Warden get pbt to compensate all of those bonus friar has as a combat class vs warden lol.

Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:49 AM by thirian24

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:20 AM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 2:00 AM
Hib literally has THE most powerful 8man group running around right now. Even after the amnesia changes, hib 8man comps are ridiculously tough. You want to give them even more because "Wardens aren't fun to play."? Lol

Wardens bring a key role to groups, offering a TON of utility.. and now even cure NS. They have awesome, much needed resists, PBT, cure NS, heals, buffs, snares, AoTG and TWF.. just to name a few. You guys need to stop coming to the forums, crying about "X" class needs "XYZ" because its not super fun to play.

Thats not how any of this works.
Some want more than others. Warden are great in 8man groups for their support you're right. But they could be better in lesser-numbers partys than they are. They are supposed to be hybrid but fail miserablely at 1/2 of their descriptor.

Friar does literally ever aspect of combat better than warden. They hit harder, have higher weaponskill, better styles, have evade 5 (which is better than pbt 1vs1). They get higher quickness from self dex/qui buff which is also their weapons stat. They get reflex attack, and still get self haste, albeit on a timer. Offensive heal proc. They also get endo reduc in their enhancement line not healing. On top of all that friar also has ranged interrupt. they also have better heals. Warden get pbt to compensate all of those bonus friar has as a combat class vs warden lol.

I know that this is hard for some of yall, but this isnt a mirrored game. Classes and realms are unique. To get the full usefulness of the friar, much like the warden, they arent speccing high staff so therefore they arent doing any dmg.

You cant balance classes for solo and smallman, b/c if makes the 8man exponentially more powerful.

Wed 26 Aug 2020 11:59 AM by Bradekes

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:49 AM
I know that this is hard for some of yall, but this isnt a mirrored game. Classes and realms are unique. To get the full usefulness of the friar, much like the warden, they arent speccing high staff so therefore they arent doing any dmg.

You cant balance classes for solo and smallman, b/c if makes the 8man exponentially more powerful.

Then, by your own logic, friars would be extremely exponentially stronger in 8man because of their combat abilities and the rejuv buffs they received? Ohh, but, wait, that's not the case???

Warden has one thing friar doesn't, chants, like pala. Run speed & pbt stand out but does it really mean that friars should also get all those bonuses to be a real melee hybrid and warden shouldn't?

Friar has things warden doesn't get too, group HoT, greater heals, group spread heal proc. So I think they've been compensated plenty in their support role. There's zero reasons not to give warden a bit of love in their melee role. Doesn't need to be very much.

Some simple ideas devs could pick out of the bunch:

Damage Table Increase
Self Weapon Skill Buff
Self Str/Con or Dex/Qui buff
Self Damage Add Buff - like shaman delve
Giving New Weapon Line: Celtics Spear/Large Weapon or unique Hib Staff line to mirror friar
Style procs aimed more towards support(blunt spec)/self buffs(blades spec) but with very balanced delves. Example: 10 delve group HoT pbaoe or 10%+ block chance buff off taunt style.
Give reflex attack
More could be added to pick out of but I've said it in every warden suggestion thread. Friars were given so much in their support line to compensate why can't wardens be compensated in the melee line?

Wed 26 Aug 2020 11:43 PM by Kymatius

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 11:59 AM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 3:49 AM
Damage Table Increase
Self Weapon Skill Buff
Self Str/Con or Dex/Qui buff
Self Damage Add Buff - like shaman delve
Giving New Weapon Line: Celtics Spear/Large Weapon or unique Hib Staff line to mirror friar
Style procs aimed more towards support(blunt spec)/self buffs(blades spec) but with very balanced delves. Example: 10 delve group HoT pbaoe or 10%+ block chance buff off taunt style.
Give reflex attack
More could be added to pick out of but I've said it in every warden suggestion thread. Friars were given so much in their support line to compensate why can't wardens be compensated in the melee line?

These types of buffs homogenize the class with other realms, but what the other user doesn't understand that the "buffs" we are trying to promote do not affect the outcome of 8v8 and only marginally help 8v8 with the HoT which in the thick and thin of things does not draw a different line in outcomes. This is also true for instaspeed chant and MoB again neither of which cause a new meta to exist.

Thu 27 Aug 2020 1:02 AM by Bradekes

Kymatius wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 11:43 PM
These types of buffs homogenize the class with other realms, but what the other user doesn't understand that the "buffs" we are trying to promote do not affect the outcome of 8v8 and only marginally help 8v8 with the HoT which in the thick and thin of things does not draw a different line in outcomes. This is also true for instaspeed chant and MoB again neither of which cause a new meta to exist.

Well you're suggestion does affect 8v8 because MoB makes the warden harder to kill as well as a HoT makes the warden harder to kill, both don't actually affect melee spec only.

Not all my suggestions were homogenizing, but there's only so many ways to buff the melee capabilities of a class. I wouldn't want their buff to be support related unless it was melee oriented like enhancement type style procs or melee skill buff which is unique and provides defense pen + dmg which is what warden need.

Thu 27 Aug 2020 6:32 PM by Tyrlaan

This thread kinda got ridiculous.

1) Friars are much harder to fit into an Alb group than Wardens into a Hib group. To get the utility of the 4 Natty core group we´re at 6 Alb slots already.
2) If Wardens had everything and more than the Friar, will Clerics get everything and more than Druids do?
3) I´d take TWF over ST on any class, even the Slam or base line stun classes.
4) I´d take red Body/Energy resists over red Heat/Cold resists any day.

Wardens might be "boring to play" but they work well in Hib groups. Better than Rejuv Friars in Alb groups anyway who are not really less "boring to play" because that´s mostly due to lack of offensive ranged abilities while just being on heal and cure duty with the occasional snare to get distance.

I´m all for a few changes (like instant speed) but Wardens don´t need to be made OPed so that somebody who thinks he wants to solo on one is made a beast in groups and solo.

Thu 27 Aug 2020 6:44 PM by imweasel

Sabatasso79 wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Aug 2020 12:19 AM
Well, if it doesn't work I expect to see the weapon spec alternative be removed or buffed. It'spointless having a specline that simply does not work.

Having worthless spec lines are part of the devs "vision". A couple are Enchanter enchantment line and cleric smite line

Thu 27 Aug 2020 8:09 PM by Kymatius

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 6:32 PM
This thread kinda got ridiculous.

1) Friars are much harder to fit into an Alb group than Wardens into a Hib group. To get the utility of the 4 Natty core group we´re at 6 Alb slots already.
2) If Wardens had everything and more than the Friar, will Clerics get everything and more than Druids do?
3) I´d take TWF over ST on any class, even the Slam or base line stun classes.
4) I´d take red Body/Energy resists over red Heat/Cold resists any day.

Wardens might be "boring to play" but they work well in Hib groups. Better than Rejuv Friars in Alb groups anyway who are not really less "boring to play" because that´s mostly due to lack of offensive ranged abilities while just being on heal and cure duty with the occasional snare to get distance.

I´m all for a few changes (like instant speed) but Wardens don´t need to be made OPed so that somebody who thinks he wants to solo on one is made a beast in groups and solo.

I agree that adding to much would give them a certain advantage and create a miniature issue. Now adding MoB will help survival in smallman's...not really going to make much of a difference in a 8man...insta speed is a QoL change for both RvR and PvE...class HoT would not push the Hib 8v8 setup beyond control and only adds a minor regen to the group but again nothing that would make them unstoppable or even shift the meta at all. Aotg is laugable heavy investment with a redonculous drop off on a 10min timer....Yup that one skill is definitely going to bring home the gold. Arguing for better melee capabilities is a tough point because you could go 50/50 on that and either way you will find camps that will support it and both will have several pros and cons for it. That I do not see happening until the style review is complete and we see where the dust has settled. Friars do have a ranged ability and are absolutely 200% more fun to play, currently playing one myself, as rejuv spec. Not only can they nearly fully self buff but they also have 2 layers of defense including free evade 5 and speccable parry. Wardens get no ranged taunt and do not benefit from a 2h wep since they can't equip them. Hands down the Friar is currently leap years ahead in playability and speccability as you can modify your spec and fit 8man, smallmans, trios, duos, and solo. I would never suggest making Wardens equal their Albion counterpart but the class has a single spec to play and that is it. Nothing else will get you grouped and their own ability to carry themselves solo doesn't work because of melee limitations. Wardens have always been a support powerhouse class just like the Friar and Shaman. Adding some minor QoL's only help with this aspect, do not homogenize the class, add the possibility of differing specs, and helps give them a new type of spot in groups.

Another idea would be to add the "Shield" skill so that RR and +items affect their ability to block but make it so they can't spec into the line.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 12:15 AM by

gruenesschaf

imweasel wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 6:44 PM
Having worthless spec lines are part of the devs "vision". A couple are Enchanter enchantment line and cleric smite line

It's not our vision but if we fix one line, say enchanting or mentalism, valid complaints will come to fix all of them. Changes to mentalism or enchanting or really any useless line for that matter would have to be quite substantial which will just bring an endless amount of changes back and forth to balance it properly, in most of these lines it's not a simple matter of number tuning but literally adding something new, especially if you want to keep with the spirit of the line and not just add a spec dd / debuff / whatever into it.
Live did this with enchanting for example and at the time when the enchanting line got the pbaoe proc group buff with the retardedly high delve I ran around with an 8box melee group to farm stuff and I replaced one of my bms with an enchanter, the introduction was as balanced as the WL introduction or necro redesign and while I hope we wouldn't go full warlock on new abilities you can be quite certain the complaints about new abilities will outweigh the current complaints about broken lines.

To avoid all that, we decided early on to just make all classes be viable in at least one playstyle / spec and then leave it there in terms of class abilities. Prime examples here would be the wizard earth line, champion debuff amounts vs buffed targets or thane spell mana cost / delve, most of the "required" changes were already automatically covered by the switch to nnf ras, the biggest one among them det for hybrids or important ras like ST.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 10:43 AM by Kymatius

Would adding MoB or giving Wardens instant speed change the roll they currently fill? I don't see those additions opening different play styles either. Now adding the HoT would create new and various specs which would A) create a weaker group Warden who is not specced for 8v8 in a pickup group, or B) give the Warden an additional button to manage when in the PBT/resist bot roll.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 5:00 PM by imweasel

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 12:15 AM
imweasel wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Aug 2020 6:44 PM
Having worthless spec lines are part of the devs "vision". A couple are Enchanter enchantment line and cleric smite line

It's not our vision but if we fix one line, say enchanting or mentalism, valid complaints will come to fix all of them. Changes to mentalism or enchanting or really any useless line for that matter would have to be quite substantial which will just bring an endless amount of changes back and forth to balance it properly, in most of these lines it's not a simple matter of number tuning but literally adding something new, especially if you want to keep with the spirit of the line and not just add a spec dd / debuff / whatever into it.
Live did this with enchanting for example and at the time when the enchanting line got the pbaoe proc group buff with the retardedly high delve I ran around with an 8box melee group to farm stuff and I replaced one of my bms with an enchanter, the introduction was as balanced as the WL introduction or necro redesign and while I hope we wouldn't go full warlock on new abilities you can be quite certain the complaints about new abilities will outweigh the current complaints about broken lines.

To avoid all that, we decided early on to just make all classes be viable in at least one playstyle / spec and then leave it there in terms of class abilities. Prime examples here would be the wizard earth line, champion debuff amounts vs buffed targets or thane spell mana cost / delve, most of the "required" changes were already automatically covered by the switch to nnf ras, the biggest one among them det for hybrids or important ras like ST.

How would bumping up say, damage tables for wardens, therefore making it worthwhile to spec in weapons be a bad thing?

Some of these changes seem to be easily done and yet no attempt has been made.

And I'm not referring to where a spec line is worthless for pve but solid for rvr and vice versa.

I think a Mentalist spec'ing in Mana for pve is fine, even though that's a gimped spec line for rvr.

I'm fine with that. That's a perfectly viable vision.

Just saying it's to hard is an easy way out. IMHO.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 8:02 PM by gotwqqd

Instant speed (I assume your talking about the chant) is not a QoL change. Not having to cast the spell is major boost to survivability

Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:20 PM by imweasel

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 8:02 PM
Instant speed (I assume your talking about the chant) is not a QoL change. Not having to cast the spell is major boost to survivability

Just put a short "must be out of combat" timer for it to work, like non instant potions.

Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:39 PM by gotwqqd

imweasel wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:20 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 8:02 PM
Instant speed (I assume your talking about the chant) is not a QoL change. Not having to cast the spell is major boost to survivability

Just put a short "must be out of combat" timer for it to work, like non instant potions.

If you are being chased that still allows you to regain speed

Fri 28 Aug 2020 11:13 PM by imweasel

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:39 PM
imweasel wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 9:20 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Aug 2020 8:02 PM
Instant speed (I assume your talking about the chant) is not a QoL change. Not having to cast the spell is major boost to survivability

Just put a short "must be out of combat" timer for it to work, like non instant potions.
If you are being chased that still allows you to regain speed

Possibly. And?

Fri 28 Aug 2020 11:14 PM by Kymatius

Arguing that getting away creates a issue is a very poor argument for not allowing instant speed chant. No speed chant when activated gives you instant speed. A class that "may get away" because of speed is not a issue or threat...an annoyance maybe but game altering I think not. Now combine that with melee enhancements, castable HoT, WEP skill boost, and speccable shield; now you have a new possible solo/duo/trio meta. Still won't affect 8mans but the lower group setups absolutely. This is why I am only suggesting MoB realm ability, castable in-combat HoT (if possible but not prioritized over the other two), and instant castable speed chant.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 1:33 AM by Nephamael

1) Friars are much harder to fit into an Alb group than Wardens into a Hib group. To get the utility of the 4 Natty core group we´re at 6 Alb slots already.

Let me count:

Midgard: Shaman + Healer = all support utility ingame = 2 classes needed

Albion: Cleric + Friar = all support utility = 2 classes needed - if you count demezz as support utility (Alb gets that on a primary threat!!! Sorc/Minst=for free) then 3

Hibernia: Druid, Bard, Warden = all support utility = 3 classes needed of which none is a dmg threat

Mon 31 Aug 2020 1:35 AM by Nephamael

To avoid all that, we decided early on to just make all classes be viable in at least one playstyle / spec and then leave it there in terms of class abilities. Prime examples here would be the wizard earth line, champion debuff amounts vs buffed targets or thane spell mana cost / delve, most of the "required" changes were already automatically covered by the switch to nnf ras, the biggest one among them det for hybrids or important ras like ST.

then just upp the dmg table to match friar - all it does for 8v8 is to hit bonus for landing snares, friar gets that + 2h defense penetration, warden gets nothing

Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:43 AM by DJ2000

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 1:33 AM
Let me count:

Midgard: Shaman + Healer = all support utility ingame = 2 classes needed

Albion: Cleric + Friar = all support utility = 2 classes needed - if you count demezz as support utility (Alb gets that on a primary threat!!! Sorc/Minst=for free) then 3

Hibernia: Druid, Bard, Warden = all support utility = 3 classes needed of which none is a dmg threat

Not sure what you were counting there. Apparently "all support utility" ?
Hibernia:
Druid, Bard, Warden -> Main Heal, Main Buff, Main CC, Main Speed, all 6 Resis Timers, 2 Cure NS

Midgard:
Shaman, Healer -> Main Buff, Main Heal, 1 Cure NS, (Pac: Main CC) /or/ (Aug: Spec AF + 3 Resis Timers)
-> +1 Healer and +1 Skald are needed to match Hib trio, yet still missing a 2nd Class that can Cure NS

Albion:
Cleric, Friar -> Main Heal, Main Buff, 2 Cure NS, all 6 Resis Timers
-> +1 Sorcerer and +1 Minstrel are needed to match Hib trio

These are 3 different Realms, they are supposed to be different from each other. "Counting" like this, especially the way you did it, is rather pointless.

imho:
Warden is in a good spot atm. He has to do the dirty work in a grp, which is why he is not that exciting to play, and yet he is very important in every setup for RvR/PvE besides PvP/Solo play.
It shouldn't even be possible to compare the Friar with the Warden. They are not the same, or have the same Role and certainly do not have the same standing within their Realm.
In my Book, they should have been even fewer similarities between these two instead of mimicking each other.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 8:22 AM by Sepplord

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 1:33 AM
1) Friars are much harder to fit into an Alb group than Wardens into a Hib group. To get the utility of the 4 Natty core group we´re at 6 Alb slots already.

Let me count:

Midgard: Shaman + Healer = all support utility ingame = 2 classes needed

Albion: Cleric + Friar = all support utility = 2 classes needed - if you count demezz as support utility (Alb gets that on a primary threat!!! Sorc/Minst=for free) then 3

Hibernia: Druid, Bard, Warden = all support utility = 3 classes needed of which none is a dmg threat

The mental gymnastics this forum can produce never fails to amaze

I did not expect to read something like this today, never in 20years have i seen anyone trying to claim that hibernia has the most core classes ^^
Even if someone had told me, i never would have expected a 2-2-3 count

Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:56 AM by Kymatius

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 6:43 AM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 1:33 AM
Let me count:

Midgard: Shaman + Healer = all support utility ingame = 2 classes needed

Albion: Cleric + Friar = all support utility = 2 classes needed - if you count demezz as support utility (Alb gets that on a primary threat!!! Sorc/Minst=for free) then 3

Hibernia: Druid, Bard, Warden = all support utility = 3 classes needed of which none is a dmg threat

Not sure what you were counting there. Apparently "all support utility" ?
Hibernia:
Druid, Bard, Warden -> Main Heal, Main Buff, Main CC, Main Speed, all 6 Resis Timers, 2 Cure NS

Midgard:
Shaman, Healer -> Main Buff, Main Heal, 1 Cure NS, (Pac: Main CC) /or/ (Aug: Spec AF + 3 Resis Timers)
-> +1 Healer and +1 Skald are needed to match Hib trio, yet still missing a 2nd Class that can Cure NS

Albion:
Cleric, Friar -> Main Heal, Main Buff, 2 Cure NS, all 6 Resis Timers
-> +1 Sorcerer and +1 Minstrel are needed to match Hib trio

These are 3 different Realms, they are supposed to be different from each other. "Counting" like this, especially the way you did it, is rather pointless.

imho:
Warden is in a good spot atm. He has to do the dirty work in a grp, which is why he is not that exciting to play, and yet he is very important in every setup for RvR/PvE besides PvP/Solo play.
It shouldn't even be possible to compare the Friar with the Warden. They are not the same, or have the same Role and certainly do not have the same standing within their Realm.
In my Book, they should have been even fewer similarities between these two instead of mimicking each other.

I still see people saying they shouldn't be the same, Friar vs. Warden, and I just want to clarify...that's NOT what is being asked for. The comparison between these two classes helps people see and shows that even upped damage tables, HoT, offensive heal proc, greaters, and 2 passives defenses do not make anyone overpowered or change Phoenix's vision.

What we are NOT asking for...
Speccable shield
More damage
Heal procs
Greaters
Evade 5
Dex/quick or Str/con buffs
Spec AF buff

What we are asking FOR...
Mastery of Block RA
Instant speed chant
Class HoT with it castable in-combat (before you
misunderstand this remember how much power it takes)

Now that is out of the way...try to also understand BOTH the Friar and Warden can not be ALL things all the time. You must choose to be a Utility/support person who is more self support than group, for a Warden. Only buffs they provide for a group is PBT and resists. You can not spec for solo/duo on a Warden with how the class defining SELFbuffs are laid out. This should not change at all. Having to make hard decisions is part of the class. Now compare that to the Friar who can have the buffs, heals, and 18+ in staff with a 2h. Again only comparing to show that even with what Friars can pull off you don't see but perhaps 10 that try to solo because of the 1.65 meta.

I hope that helps explain things a little better and stops the old argument of homogenization and people assuming they are asking for the moon.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:56 AM by DJ2000

1. MoB is a RA for classes, that can specialize into a Shield Skill, to further enhance (MASTER of Blocking) their ability. Why not give it to Shamans? Clerics? What reason is there besides your own opinion. Because "live" did it? "Live" doesn't matter here.

2. The only Class with instant speed chant is the Skald. I'm pretty sure every other class (including the Minstrel and Bard) would like to have it instant too.
Why give it specifically to Warden?
The only Class that can instantly "pop" in the Bladeturn chant is the Warden. The Theu and SuppRM have to actually Cast it. I am also sure they would like this "QoL" of instant PBt as well, same with the Speed chant for that matter.

3. There is currently no other Ability that can be described like this: Class HoT with it castable in-combat.
This heavily cuts into every aspect of Gameplay from PvP/RvR/PvE for the Warden, and his opposing forces. This is no Solo-Game.

U can go easily 49 Nurt, 39 Weapon 12/16 Regr 16/12 Parry, or even lower Nurt/Weapon to bump Parry/Weapon or Regr. Maybe even 50 Weapon 37 Nurt 16/14 Parry 14/16 Regr.
You have enough points to do exactly what u said: All Grp Buffs for Solo/Duo.

If u just want a Version of a Warden that u remember from your time on Live Servers, then go for a Shard that has that specific Warden or the Live Servers itself.
The Warden here on Phoenix may not be the most exciting class to play, but its one of the classes that can be considered overall to be very Fine in its current form.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 12:32 PM by Bradekes

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 11:56 AM
U can go easily 49 Nurt, 39 Weapon 12/16 Regr 16/12 Parry, or even lower Nurt/Weapon to bump Parry/Weapon or Regr. Maybe even 50 Weapon 37 Nurt 16/14 Parry 14/16 Regr.
You have enough points to do exactly what u said: All Grp Buffs for Solo/Duo.

If u just want a Version of a Warden that u remember from your time on Live Servers, then go for a Shard that has that specific Warden or the Live Servers itself.
The Warden here on Phoenix may not be the most exciting class to play, but its one of the classes that can be considered overall to be very Fine in its current form.

I'm not condoning the HoT or instant speed. But warden suck in solo game no matter the spec. Friar are not live like but stronger for this patch level on phoenix so are quite a few classes. People enjoy playing solo warden, you just have to consider this as being true. A lot of people, including many that don't get on the forum, are disappointed with how warden plays here, and there will be a endless amount of these threads asking for this as a real possibility.

This issue won't go away on it's own, it's not just a matter of time until people stop requesting change on this subject. Melee warden need some love, I think the devs should do something to appease this idea. It doesn't have to be a game changing adjustment.

From my experience with a high melee spec warden it would be nice to have some instant self dot/disease cleanse and maybe a 10% block chance added to an anytime melee style, maybe fireblade or taunt. Or even a proc that gives said block chance like 15% defensive procrate with increasing block delve as you level your melee. Also small damage boost to melee because you're swinging a wetnoodle out there.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 1:54 PM by DJ2000

Being a Solo-Warden is tough on Phoenix, i know.
If anything i would prefer lower Weapon spec and higher parry Rate as the Damage increase/decrease is rather negligible.
Entire Regr Spec Line is basically beaten by combined potions of Reg. That leaves Heals(crappy), Cures, Rezz and the Endu Reduction as the only ones with usability.
PBt: Too slow vs. anything DW/LE, is ignored/useless and also slow vs. Archers, doesn't Work if Stunned or Mezzed (obv. reasons), it does Help vs. Sword/shield to not receive an instant Slam.
Resis Timers: Helpful vs. all Alb Casters besides the Wizard, not that helpful but still kinda balanced uses vs Mid casters.

Went from twf5 to twf1 as its more used to buy yourself some time to Heal, Cure or close the gap than actual rupt or Dmg.
Besides MoPain almost all other passives are useless to increase the damage, and even then its rather moderate.
AotG + tinder (+ Dmg add chant) is 90% of your Damage (if you can: grp with others before placing tinder, disband afterwards)
MoC1 mainly Cure or Rezz in solo/small.
Det and Purge is a must.
IP is Luxury but helpful (yes helpful, not Game changing until IP5)
No ranged interrupt (same as all Hero, Armnsmen, Warriors, Blademasters, Berserkers and Mercenaries) only charges, so your legion is at 10/10 most of the time.
Fast swing time with slow weapons is generating nice proc rates.

All in all, I would consider a Solo Bard to be stronger and more fun to play as a Solo Warden.
Yet i still repeat my earlier sentence:
The Warden here on Phoenix may not be the most exciting class to play, but its one of the classes that can be considered overall to be very Fine in its current form.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 2:15 PM by Bradekes

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Mon 31 Aug 2020 1:54 PM
All in all, I would consider a Solo Bard to be stronger and more fun to play as a Solo Warden.
Yet i still repeat my earlier sentence:
The Warden here on Phoenix may not be the most exciting class to play, but its one of the classes that can be considered overall to be very Fine in its current form.

I had considered replacing my melee warden to try a battlebard but the biggest issue/reason I dropped that idea was the fact that bards have 0 in combat utility unless you're chasing solo casters down. The only in combat song they have are resistances, so if you're fighting any real melee you're boned unless you kite then and wait for your 10second shout timer and that's both cheesy and boring.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 9:56 PM by Kymatius

I definitely think Wardens are fine at this patch level if this patch were not tuned and left untouched, but that is not the case. The Meta of the tuning and the patch is what has to be considered and modified around. Adding MoB would help a few certain play styles without giving anyone a off block stun or guard or giving them the ultra blockbot mode. It is also absolutely nothing like live so please do not confuse what I am promoting and live. They are vastly different and even all three additions wouldn't even put it in the same orbit as live. MoB would take a considerable investment to be worth anything pulling from other RAs like aotg or IP. They currently only fill the roll of PBT/resists bot as speccing anything else doesn't help this one needed roll and only works in smallmans and 8v8. Instant speed chant on a class with three instant chants only follows suit and is not out of the realm for the class. Now having one "chant" not instant out of the four seems cumbersome and does still function just more so a QoL for the solo Warden. The HoT I could take or leave but it would help out with defense in smallmans... you would still hit like a wet noodle but possibly live long enough to have another stealther feel bad for you and help kill the other. This brings us to the current Meta... secret life of assassin's and their overturned damage.

Mon 31 Aug 2020 10:15 PM by Kymatius

My last post sounded like a rant and not well thought out and I am sorry for that... just getting off from teaching and the fastest trip through North America currently is my head lol.

Tue 1 Sep 2020 2:32 AM by Nephamael

-Hot: If giving wardens hot it should be a cast like sham or friar have them. Balancing around a in combat self hot is impossible (check early catacombs vamp).
Then it is a good idea to give warden more to do in 8v8 than cure, single heal, cure nearsight and the occasional sidesnare.

-Upping dmg table: It is a must to let wardens dmg table match that of friar (and pally) if the Phoenix staff doesn't want to be rightfully called out for favoring Alb over Hib in this case for no legitimate reason. - This would not change 8v8 meta and help solo warden that currently - if perfectly played - performs at 30% winrates in 1v1s and can't exceed 50/50 in matchups warden is designed to be a counter against.

-Instant Speed: Yes this is a great QOL idea, as it is only caster speed and all other warden chants are instant - therefore having to stand still to cast speed feels unnatural and counter intuitive.

-mob for wardens without shieldspec: A good idea for a small buff. Instead of going parry 5 to 7 you can use the same points for mob 0 to 5 and gain 12% defense instead of 6% for the same points spent.

Thu 3 Sep 2020 12:19 AM by Tulpa

OMG PLEASE Just a bit of shield love would be nice... we have great blade styles off block....

I know we aren't meant to be a big damage class and to play well in melee we should have to work really hard. Being able to spec a bid in shield to block more and use the 4sec stun to then chain other positional styles would be amazing. Spec shield skill would be nice for spare points I'm not a parry fan and we don't get large weapons.

HoT would be nice but not a requirement for me..

Wardens get subpar damage (even for 1h), no style procs, low growth rates. While no one plays a warden for melee DPS, their melee damage is the most anemic. And to spec that means giving away a considerable amount from the two spell lines.

Thu 3 Sep 2020 12:48 AM by Kymatius

Tulpa wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 12:19 AM
OMG PLEASE Just a bit of shield love would be nice... we have great blade styles off block....

I know we aren't meant to be a big damage class and to play well in melee we should have to work really hard. Being able to spec a bid in shield to block more and use the 4sec stun to then chain other positional styles would be amazing. Spec shield skill would be nice for spare points I'm not a parry fan and we don't get large weapons.

HoT would be nice but not a requirement for me..

Wardens get subpar damage (even for 1h), no style procs, low growth rates. While no one plays a warden for melee DPS, their melee damage is the most anemic. And to spec that means giving away a considerable amount from the two spell lines.

I am for Mastery of Block but definitely not spec shield... now if they wanted to "add" the line so it gains from +skill and RR I am all about. For damage wise they should not up the table but increase the growth rates but again a style review is underway so that should be curtailed till that is finished. I also could leave the HoT but only if they be add MoB or unspeccable shield skill. At RR11 you should have roughly 28% chance to block...make this definitive and not on the DW def pen and we are in business.

Fri 18 Sep 2020 12:15 AM by Kymatius

Also a change to defense pen may be in order...not necessarily damage table although that directly effects defense pen...but definitely defense pen.

Fri 18 Sep 2020 5:25 AM by imweasel

Wardens need a ton of help. I do mean a ton...

I think a bump up in damage tables is long over due. How much is anyone's guess. In lieu of that, maybe a self timed str/con buff would be nice.

Make speed buff an instant.

Not a fan of an instant group HoT.

Wardens need protect.

Since warrens won't be getting shield spec, I think being able to take MoB is an excellent idea.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 1:05 AM by Nephamael

For the PvE side of things wardens could be another viable class to tank DS/HoH if they simply had protect and 2 dmg tables up.

Pala is the primary pick for PvE tanking since the dmg table buff - why not allow wardens to be at least viable at all?

Sun 20 Sep 2020 5:58 AM by Cadebrennus

Add Shield but no extra spec points. That will allow at least positional stuns and Guard+Engage. If they want Slam they're going to have to sacrifice something for it.

Sun 20 Sep 2020 2:59 PM by imweasel

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 5:58 AM
Add Shield but no extra spec points. That will allow at least positional stuns and Guard+Engage. If they want Slam they're going to have to sacrifice something for it.

Very intriguing idea. I'd still favor MoB over being able to spec in shield without at least a bump up from 1.5 spec points.

I wonder how many spec points you would get at 1.6 or 1.7 multiplier?

So in general...

MoB or maybe shield spec
Bump up in damage table
Speed made insta
Protect
Anything else?

Tue 22 Sep 2020 10:52 AM by Kymatius

I'd vote for insta speed, MoB, and higher damage table.

Tue 22 Sep 2020 9:36 PM by Cadebrennus

imweasel wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 2:59 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 5:58 AM
Add Shield but no extra spec points. That will allow at least positional stuns and Guard+Engage. If they want Slam they're going to have to sacrifice something for it.

Very intriguing idea. I'd still favor MoB over being able to spec in shield without at least a bump up from 1.5 spec points.

I wonder how many spec points you would get at 1.6 or 1.7 multiplier?

So in general...

MoB or maybe shield spec
Bump up in damage table
Speed made insta
Protect
Anything else?

I'm a huge proponent of sacrifice in spec lines which is why I like the idea of Shield spec but no extra points. I also advocate removing the evade stuns from Slash/Blades/etc. if it didn't exist before the Devs "updated" it from OF styles for the same reason: balance

Wed 23 Sep 2020 12:55 AM by Nephamael

Add Shield but no extra spec points. That will allow at least positional stuns and Guard+Engage. If they want Slam they're going to have to sacrifice something for it.

The DEVs said they defnitely don't want shieldspec for wardens on Phoenix.
While i'd love to play the guard/peel/healbot i agree it would be a strong character for 8v8.

But: Warden has the lowest specpoints of all melee characters on Phoenix and is the only one with a huge 1.65 disadvantage that has neither seen an increase in specpoints nor dmg table.
Which just even more so amplifies the urgent need to give warden compensation.

-2 dmg tables upp!
-Access to mastery of block!
-Protect!

Those would be tiny tiny buffs and all help the warden in RvR and PvE alike. I don't even ask for buffing spec points on top, even tho it would be just fair.

I think instant caster speed chant would be a nice qol patch too and defnitely support it. It is not the most urgent need tho.