Please Explain why You don't allow dual Logging and 2 acct. Bot usage?

I'm not on Phoenix staff but I think I can explain why live supports dual logging and free shards don't.

Live gets extra revenue from those second accounts. Free shards do not. Any server has a finite capacity based on equipment and staff. If every player has 2 accounts then only half as many players can be supported.

Live would love to run out of resources due to extra accounts, they would just use the extra revenue to hire more staff and more server resources. When a free shard is out of resources, they don't have that option.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:33 PM by Aincrad

Uthgard isn't successful for a lot of reasons, none of them having to do with not allowing bots/dual logging. This is something that will NEVER be allowed on this server, which I am okay with. Especially since there are tons of customizations the dev team has provided us in regards to PvE. A quote straight from a Dev. Below is the thread as well where the quote is from.

"Short answer would be that we want Phoenix to be a social "experience", that means creating a setup in which people are encouraged to interact and collaborate. Allowing dual logging would go against that goal. We understand that some people prefer to play on their own, and that is their right - but we will not actively encourage it by allowing bots. We feel that it wouldn't promote a "healthy" server community - especially since dual logging is much easier today as it was in 2003 (i.e. no extra subscription fee and most modern PCs can easily handle two accounts). You'd very rapidly have a situation where part of the player base would roll bot duos and the other half had no one to group/play with."

https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=772

Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:55 PM by colechar

I want to echo the above post. Uthgard did not fail because they lacked buff bots. There were a number of issues that they failed to address.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 7:33 PM by Waygone

Saying Uthgard died from not allowing dual logging is like saying Hitler failed to conquer the world because he had a funny mustache

Mon 24 Sep 2018 8:29 PM by klaggorn

Let me assure you that uthgard is still banning people. What they stopped doing was posting it or even informing the people they are banning.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 9:39 PM by Joc

Still think they should allow bots, but to each their own.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 10:18 PM by Pendalith

no bots

Mon 24 Sep 2018 10:52 PM by chryso

If you want bots go play live. You can have all you want.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 11:21 PM by Armsmancer

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

Tue 25 Sep 2018 8:15 AM by Druth

I had fun with my bots, and would likely have fun with 2-4 bots here.

But bots together with ToA represents what internally (WoW likely did most of the damage) killed DaoC.
It made a gap between casual and "elite" the size of the Pacific Ocean.

I suspect this is the biggest reason for people having distrust towards allowing bots.

Add to this that people with bots are less likely to ask people for help, as most can be done "solo" then.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 1:16 PM by Karqa

No bots

Love sellin buffpots

Tue 25 Sep 2018 8:03 PM by FrackinReavers

Aincrad wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:33 PM
Uthgard isn't successful for a lot of reasons, none of them having to do with not allowing bots/dual logging. This is something that will NEVER be allowed on this server, which I am okay with. Especially since there are tons of customizations the dev team has provided us in regards to PvE. A quote straight from a Dev. Below is the thread as well where the quote is from.

"Short answer would be that we want Phoenix to be a social "experience", that means creating a setup in which people are encouraged to interact and collaborate. Allowing dual logging would go against that goal. We understand that some people prefer to play on their own, and that is their right - but we will not actively encourage it by allowing bots. We feel that it wouldn't promote a "healthy" server community - especially since dual logging is much easier today as it was in 2003 (i.e. no extra subscription fee and most modern PCs can easily handle two accounts). You'd very rapidly have a situation where part of the player base would roll bot duos and the other half had no one to group/play with."

https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=772

Lul Paladins.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 11:21 PM by Armsmancer

As quoted, it's a social thing of them pushing you to do certain behavior. It's their server so it's like their sandbox. They are the parent/teachers watching the kids play and they force you to mingle instead of letting you play with your tonka truck in the corner. They do not want kids playing by themselves and they see themselves as arbiters here trying to make people more dependent on each other and not self sufficient.

I originally wanted bots and argued a lot especially on genesis about it, but I've reached the acceptance stage.

I will say its more pleasant experience not having to alt tab all the damn time.

But yeah, it's not because of some impactful thing anyone can put their finger on that is inherently negative or some numbers anyone can cite, it is totally the staff's discussion about it long ago ended with a consensus they believe it is better to have people nudged to play together instead of some completely neutral sandbox. At best the server load argument may have some merit but there aren't any hard numbers to answer yes or no about it actually pushing them over some cap, nobody has ever stated cap pop this server and hold, and that they are already 80% capacity or something, therefore having bots would be bad, it is all conjecture and speculation.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 10:34 AM by DrMetti

i played alot with buffbots in the past and i liked it
but today i prefer to play rvr or even pve with "real" chracters, not armed (buffed) to teeth because everyone has his buffbot loitering around

Wed 26 Sep 2018 6:37 PM by rubaduck

The gameplay was never designed for bots but everyone who played from vanilla knows that stat buffs on one single class was a bad game design to begin with and exploited it. Mythic allowed it because they made money of it, period. Phoenix doesn't make any money of this, and to be frank, buff bots has been the bane of Daoc's exitence. Yup I had bots, multiple bots, but I had to pay for them. I don't have to pay for anything here, so everyone is equal.

This is just to explain my take at why. The whole structure of active players vs inactive characters and the infrastructure you would need to double up the player base is a completely new discussion.

Given that buffs from a player has a range limit now as well, it only creates one given scenario where it can be used: pve content not meant to do with just one player. In RVR it's useless, unless you want to have a group of bots sidecaring the group.

So that leaves it down to why. Why spend more money to maintain the server power , just to give players the satisfaction of doing pve content meant for groups as solo?

Wed 3 Oct 2018 12:11 AM by chryso

You are going to get a lot of fake answers but the real reason is because we don't like you and we want you to be unhappy.
There, I said it. Sorry, but that is the way it is.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 3:33 AM by rubaduck

chryso wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 12:11 AM
You are going to get a lot of fake answers but the real reason is because we don't like you and we want you to be unhappy.
There, I said it. Sorry, but that is the way it is.

Unhappy? I play druid am I am buffed all the time. So is my team.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:06 PM by poisonclover

IMHO, I don't want bots and I don't think buff potions should be in game and a thing either.

I spend my last hour of play time, prepping for the next time I log on to rvr. farming cash, making potions. just to be able to compete. Honestly there is still a gap between the people as it stands. People who can afford potions and those who cant. Just hate the fact that live forced you to have a buffbot to compete and now your forced to be an alchemist to compete or be rich. ( recharging, pots) not cheap at all.

Honestly just add NPC buff Merchants and call it a day. and possibly not cost an arm and a leg. Or just remove them all together. Fighting things with 50% evade,50% parry etc is just asinine... you have style chains with 3-4 styles and you never ever see the end of them due to the OP Defensive skills people are running around with due to them getting RA's and speccing around Buff potions. Therefore making it a requirement to play, what kind of QoL is this?

Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:09 PM by poisonclover

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 6:37 PM
The gameplay was never designed for bots but everyone who played from vanilla knows that stat buffs on one single class was a bad game design to begin with and exploited it. Mythic allowed it because they made money of it, period. Phoenix doesn't make any money of this, and to be frank, buff bots has been the bane of Daoc's exitence. Yup I had bots, multiple bots, but I had to pay for them. I don't have to pay for anything here, so everyone is equal.

This is just to explain my take at why. The whole structure of active players vs inactive characters and the infrastructure you would need to double up the player base is a completely new discussion.

Given that buffs from a player has a range limit now as well, it only creates one given scenario where it can be used: pve content not meant to do with just one player. In RVR it's useless, unless you want to have a group of bots sidecaring the group.

So that leaves it down to why. Why spend more money to maintain the server power , just to give players the satisfaction of doing pve content meant for groups as solo?

Everyone is not equal, Some classes where given self buffs to be on par. These self buffs are the same the enemy now has buff potions that put them back over the line of balance. think about it.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:11 PM by defiasbandit

Increase the stats on combined forces potions and lower the tears cost possibly.

Why not make potions as good as castable buffs? Why give full group buffs an advantage?

Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:41 PM by Armsmancer

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:06 PM
IMHO, I don't want bots and I don't think buff potions should be in game and a thing either.

I spend my last hour of play time, prepping for the next time I log on to rvr. farming cash, making potions. just to be able to compete. Honestly there is still a gap between the people as it stands. People who can afford potions and those who cant. Just hate the fact that live forced you to have a buffbot to compete and now your forced to be an alchemist to compete or be rich. ( recharging, pots) not cheap at all.

Honestly just add NPC buff Merchants and call it a day. and possibly not cost an arm and a leg. Or just remove them all together. Fighting things with 50% evade,50% parry etc is just asinine... you have style chains with 3-4 styles and you never ever see the end of them due to the OP Defensive skills people are running around with due to them getting RA's and speccing around Buff potions. Therefore making it a requirement to play, what kind of QoL is this?

Be intellectually honest. We both know you can get 100 minutes of buffs for like 3g.5g per materials for each stat. With a bag of potions you have the same buffs as those with barrels who are just using up less bag space, but pay for that convenience.

However, you frame it as the latter as the cost, yet the benefit in stat is the same. If I drink a STR potion or a STR barrel, I get the same bonus. You just want cake/eat it too, so again, be intellectually honest and stop handing us this garbage comparison that is tainted trying to smuggle in how "expensive" it is. It takes very, very little time to get an alch up to do all the stat potions, and they even made them scale! You don't need lv 40 or 50 versions, everyone is on the same playing field, but when I say everyone, I mean those that will at least put in the small effort to get to like 500 alch which is super cheap just by making poisons to that point. Get to this point and you can have all of your chars fully buffed and invig/crack pots, everything, it is such a small investment for a huge future payoff, yet we get these dishonest comparisons and them calling it "buffbot" it isn't a buffbot stop hijacking terms to put your finger on the scale.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 11:01 PM by rubaduck

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:09 PM
Everyone is not equal, Some classes where given self buffs to be on par. These self buffs are the same the enemy now has buff potions that put them back over the line of balance. think about it.

I wouldn't care if they removed buff potions, just to make that clear right from the get go. I barely use them, and charges are usually a better option and better buffs. Allowing dual logging is just a no go too.

Thu 4 Oct 2018 2:20 PM by poisonclover

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:41 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:06 PM
IMHO, I don't want bots and I don't think buff potions should be in game and a thing either.

I spend my last hour of play time, prepping for the next time I log on to rvr. farming cash, making potions. just to be able to compete. Honestly there is still a gap between the people as it stands. People who can afford potions and those who cant. Just hate the fact that live forced you to have a buffbot to compete and now your forced to be an alchemist to compete or be rich. ( recharging, pots) not cheap at all.

Honestly just add NPC buff Merchants and call it a day. and possibly not cost an arm and a leg. Or just remove them all together. Fighting things with 50% evade,50% parry etc is just asinine... you have style chains with 3-4 styles and you never ever see the end of them due to the OP Defensive skills people are running around with due to them getting RA's and speccing around Buff potions. Therefore making it a requirement to play, what kind of QoL is this?

Be intellectually honest. We both know you can get 100 minutes of buffs for like 3g.5g per materials for each stat. With a bag of potions you have the same buffs as those with barrels who are just using up less bag space, but pay for that convenience.

However, you frame it as the latter as the cost, yet the benefit in stat is the same. If I drink a STR potion or a STR barrel, I get the same bonus. You just want cake/eat it too, so again, be intellectually honest and stop handing us this garbage comparison that is tainted trying to smuggle in how "expensive" it is. It takes very, very little time to get an alch up to do all the stat potions, and they even made them scale! You don't need lv 40 or 50 versions, everyone is on the same playing field, but when I say everyone, I mean those that will at least put in the small effort to get to like 500 alch which is super cheap just by making poisons to that point. Get to this point and you can have all of your chars fully buffed and invig/crack pots, everything, it is such a small investment for a huge future payoff, yet we get these dishonest comparisons and them calling it "buffbot" it isn't a buffbot stop hijacking terms to put your finger on the scale.

You clearly are missing the point here, as you so very often do on all of your responses to peoples posts, So ill dummy it down and be "Intellectually" honest with you.
The Economy in the beta is trash. People are charging plats for full buff pots that's cost what 250g? Alchemists are rolling In the money
The Shear fact that you think its ok to have to farm cash to RvR because it only takes a small amount of time? who are you to decide how valuable my time is what I need to be doing with it? I farmed enough to template my character, now i have to keep coin in my pocket to fund rvr....you're ridiculous. 70-100g recharge cost per item. + Potion Cost and time ( (900+ alchemy btw)
Nobody was comparing a BARREL TO A POTION TO A ELIXIR amount of charges is irrelevant. The point being made is ITS REQUIRED TO COMPETE to carry buff potions.
Everyone is not on a level playfield, again I can explain it slower for you. some classes where given self buffs to put them closer to the line, other classes where not given self buffs for obviously causing the line to rise. With Buff potions, the Line has moved higher and the Self buffs are the same, therefore they are back where they started, only difference being they do more damage faster, but now so does their opponent. So it appears fair and level but its really not. (I don't play self buffing classes here ,I fight them )

So in short, add NPC buff merchants or remove them in its entirety.
this game only ever required one thing to compete, and that was a buffbot on live. Only difference here is you need buff potions, how you go about getting them is irrelevant, be it making them or buying them. But it basically cost money to RvR as it stands, how much is irrelevant clearly you have more time on your hands then some of us and your solution doesn't work for everyone.

my vote is remove buff potions and endo potions and remove the gap between the people with jobs and families from the basement dwellers.

Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:37 PM by Armsmancer

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 2:20 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:41 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:06 PM
IMHO, I don't want bots and I don't think buff potions should be in game and a thing either.

I spend my last hour of play time, prepping for the next time I log on to rvr. farming cash, making potions. just to be able to compete. Honestly there is still a gap between the people as it stands. People who can afford potions and those who cant. Just hate the fact that live forced you to have a buffbot to compete and now your forced to be an alchemist to compete or be rich. ( recharging, pots) not cheap at all.

Honestly just add NPC buff Merchants and call it a day. and possibly not cost an arm and a leg. Or just remove them all together. Fighting things with 50% evade,50% parry etc is just asinine... you have style chains with 3-4 styles and you never ever see the end of them due to the OP Defensive skills people are running around with due to them getting RA's and speccing around Buff potions. Therefore making it a requirement to play, what kind of QoL is this?

Be intellectually honest. We both know you can get 100 minutes of buffs for like 3g.5g per materials for each stat. With a bag of potions you have the same buffs as those with barrels who are just using up less bag space, but pay for that convenience.

However, you frame it as the latter as the cost, yet the benefit in stat is the same. If I drink a STR potion or a STR barrel, I get the same bonus. You just want cake/eat it too, so again, be intellectually honest and stop handing us this garbage comparison that is tainted trying to smuggle in how "expensive" it is. It takes very, very little time to get an alch up to do all the stat potions, and they even made them scale! You don't need lv 40 or 50 versions, everyone is on the same playing field, but when I say everyone, I mean those that will at least put in the small effort to get to like 500 alch which is super cheap just by making poisons to that point. Get to this point and you can have all of your chars fully buffed and invig/crack pots, everything, it is such a small investment for a huge future payoff, yet we get these dishonest comparisons and them calling it "buffbot" it isn't a buffbot stop hijacking terms to put your finger on the scale.

You clearly are missing the point here, as you so very often do on all of your responses to peoples posts, So ill dummy it down and be "Intellectually" honest with you.
The Economy in the beta is trash. People are charging plats for full buff pots that's cost what 250g? Alchemists are rolling In the money
The Shear fact that you think its ok to have to farm cash to RvR because it only takes a small amount of time? who are you to decide how valuable my time is what I need to be doing with it? I farmed enough to template my character, now i have to keep coin in my pocket to fund rvr....you're ridiculous. 70-100g recharge cost per item. + Potion Cost and time ( (900+ alchemy btw)
Nobody was comparing a BARREL TO A POTION TO A ELIXIR amount of charges is irrelevant. The point being made is ITS REQUIRED TO COMPETE to carry buff potions.
Everyone is not on a level playfield, again I can explain it slower for you. some classes where given self buffs to put them closer to the line, other classes where not given self buffs for obviously causing the line to rise. With Buff potions, the Line has moved higher and the Self buffs are the same, therefore they are back where they started, only difference being they do more damage faster, but now so does their opponent. So it appears fair and level but its really not. (I don't play self buffing classes here ,I fight them )

So in short, add NPC buff merchants or remove them in its entirety.
this game only ever required one thing to compete, and that was a buffbot on live. Only difference here is you need buff potions, how you go about getting them is irrelevant, be it making them or buying them. But it basically cost money to RvR as it stands, how much is irrelevant clearly you have more time on your hands then some of us and your solution doesn't work for everyone.

my vote is remove buff potions and endo potions and remove the gap between the people with jobs and families from the basement dwellers.

its 200g in mats and 750 feathers smart guy, why don't you just go grab a few of those real quick as well off the merch...oh wait ya can't I wonder how long it will take you to put these 2 things together. This is what I'm talking about you leaving stuff like that out and passing it off as legit. Alch takes tons and tons of plats to level up but you want their time and investment to be left out of the calculation. Why not I dunno farm the feathers yourself and get an alch to do it with 200g mats and tip them instead of going to the market and using someone else's feathers I know it's so complicated to think of things like this.

Also see my other post about equilibrium. Prices are going to fluxuate but will hit equilibrium. There are no "greedy albs" or whatever others were saying, the market sets the prices by supply and demand, not some gouging, Mr. Burns guy cackling in the corner with all the best loots, get a clue. The reason I'm short with people about this is because its objective, econ 101 stuff and I've got to teach people basic stuff like this when its already settled with this type of stuff across all types of markets everywhere, it isn't up for debate about how prices reach equilibrium in a supply and demand economy.

Thu 4 Oct 2018 7:37 PM by defiasbandit

I think potion costs can be tweaked a bit. Look most players do not want to grind a ton to RvR, but the costs here are not as high as some claim. 200 gold and 750 feathers is easily farmable. It can be done in RvR as well. Perhaps the feather cost could be lowered to 500 or so.

Buff pots should be as good as casted buffs.

You need to have some gold sinks, and give alchemists something to do.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 1:22 AM by Zansobar

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 7:37 PM
I think potion costs can be tweaked a bit. Look most players do not want to grind a ton to RvR, but the costs here are not as high as some claim. 200 gold and 750 feathers is easily farmable. It can be done in RvR as well. Perhaps the feather cost could be lowered to 500 or so.

Buff pots should be as good as casted buffs.

You need to have some gold sinks, and give alchemists something to do.

I agree. Without buff bots (which were the norm back in 1.65 times) the game is quite imbalanced and massively favors 8 mans (since they will always run fully buffed). A reasonable compromise would be to make buff potions fully buff the stats they affect but since they cost money and/or feathers there is still a big advantage to running a buff spec toon in your group. By fully buffed I mean +155 dex/qui and str/con.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 4:23 AM by AngelRose

I don't see any real reason to not have bots, besides people don't like them. It does not make you elite, if everyone can have one, esp in a game you don't have to pay for the account.

Not having access to bots does not hurt the 8v8 elite crowd, they will always have healers in group. It hurts people who want to solo or smallman

Fri 5 Oct 2018 5:06 AM by Kaziera

While one buffbot is quite bad (makes ppls able to solo a lot instead of making them group up
Aka social interaction) its even more so about multibox farmers. They are a pain in the ass, usually blocking important encounters from ppls access and ruining a server economy by putting insane amounts of money and control over certain loots in one persons hands.

Sure, there will be efforts needed to balance classes that are broken with buff pots. But that should be easy on the way in i50.

For the money side of things, i dont see your problems. With soloing my paly to rr4 and playing cleric theurgist wiz and minst to 3lx or even 5l0 i made profit in feathers and cash while using int an charges on all my casters and charges+pots on my solo paly.

All i did different was financing my guild crafters during start of beta and while lvling up my chars. So there you see the problem. If you are not able to join a community because your social skills are not adequate, maybe start there instead of cring in the forums. I personal love the Situation how it is. Give communicative and social ppl a advantage. Great stuff.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 6:11 AM by Armsmancer

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Oct 2018 5:06 AM
While one buffbot is quite bad (makes ppls able to solo a lot instead of making them group up
Aka social interaction) its even more so about multibox farmers. They are a pain in the ass, usually blocking important encounters from ppls access and ruining a server economy by putting insane amounts of money and control over certain loots in one persons hands.

Sure, there will be efforts needed to balance classes that are broken with buff pots. But that should be easy on the way in i50.

For the money side of things, i dont see your problems. With soloing my paly to rr4 and playing cleric theurgist wiz and minst to 3lx or even 5l0 i made profit in feathers and cash while using int an charges on all my casters and charges+pots on my solo paly.

All i did different was financing my guild crafters during start of beta and while lvling up my chars. So there you see the problem. If you are not able to join a community because your social skills are not adequate, maybe start there instead of cring in the forums. I personal love the Situation how it is. Give communicative and social ppl a advantage. Great stuff.

If buffbots were allowed on phoenix which encounter do you believe would be blocked by the waves of players and their bots exactly?

Fri 5 Oct 2018 7:13 AM by defiasbandit

It just doesn't make any sense to me why buff potions are not red.

Letting other players have a big advantage in RvR due to casted buffs etc.. is a huge mistake.

Stuff like that is what drives players away.

Fighting a group buffed character isn't even comparable.

The potion buffs should be as good as any group buffs.

We want skill based RvR, not who is grouped with a cleric,shaman, healer.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 9:25 AM by Kaziera

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Oct 2018 7:13 AM
It just doesn't make any sense to me why buff potions are not red.

Letting other players have a big advantage in RvR due to casted buffs etc.. is a huge mistake.

Stuff like that is what drives players away.

Fighting a group buffed character isn't even comparable.

The potion buffs should be as good as any group buffs.

We want skill based RvR, not who is grouped with a cleric,shaman, healer.

Nonsense. A duo will always be better than a solo.

And a duo with a healer will always have less Offensive potential than one with 2 dds

And evrything else is subject to balancing. That will come after i50 so cool your jets.

Edit: @armsmancer, all epic mobs that can get kited/ killed via agro ping pong. That are quite a lot. Just as example the 4 ac epic mobs.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 2:24 PM by AngelRose

The reality is there are people who would like to play this server, but will not play if they don't have red buffs. That is not an argument, but a fact. There are many reasons to include an option for red buffs for those who solo or smallman, but the reasons NOT to have that do not hold water, and those arguing against are just posting their personal dislike/opinion.

Red buffs will help increase and sustain population

Fri 5 Oct 2018 3:40 PM by

Uthred

We will not change anything about buff potions, dual logging, buffbots, etc.

We have stated it several times in several threads. Just read the 3rd post in this topic. Its a perfect summary to explain the reasons behind this decision.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 4:28 PM by poisonclover

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:37 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 2:20 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:41 PM
Be intellectually honest. We both know you can get 100 minutes of buffs for like 3g.5g per materials for each stat. With a bag of potions you have the same buffs as those with barrels who are just using up less bag space, but pay for that convenience.

However, you frame it as the latter as the cost, yet the benefit in stat is the same. If I drink a STR potion or a STR barrel, I get the same bonus. You just want cake/eat it too, so again, be intellectually honest and stop handing us this garbage comparison that is tainted trying to smuggle in how "expensive" it is. It takes very, very little time to get an alch up to do all the stat potions, and they even made them scale! You don't need lv 40 or 50 versions, everyone is on the same playing field, but when I say everyone, I mean those that will at least put in the small effort to get to like 500 alch which is super cheap just by making poisons to that point. Get to this point and you can have all of your chars fully buffed and invig/crack pots, everything, it is such a small investment for a huge future payoff, yet we get these dishonest comparisons and them calling it "buffbot" it isn't a buffbot stop hijacking terms to put your finger on the scale.

You clearly are missing the point here, as you so very often do on all of your responses to peoples posts, So ill dummy it down and be "Intellectually" honest with you.
The Economy in the beta is trash. People are charging plats for full buff pots that's cost what 250g? Alchemists are rolling In the money
The Shear fact that you think its ok to have to farm cash to RvR because it only takes a small amount of time? who are you to decide how valuable my time is what I need to be doing with it? I farmed enough to template my character, now i have to keep coin in my pocket to fund rvr....you're ridiculous. 70-100g recharge cost per item. + Potion Cost and time ( (900+ alchemy btw)
Nobody was comparing a BARREL TO A POTION TO A ELIXIR amount of charges is irrelevant. The point being made is ITS REQUIRED TO COMPETE to carry buff potions.
Everyone is not on a level playfield, again I can explain it slower for you. some classes where given self buffs to put them closer to the line, other classes where not given self buffs for obviously causing the line to rise. With Buff potions, the Line has moved higher and the Self buffs are the same, therefore they are back where they started, only difference being they do more damage faster, but now so does their opponent. So it appears fair and level but its really not. (I don't play self buffing classes here ,I fight them )

So in short, add NPC buff merchants or remove them in its entirety.
this game only ever required one thing to compete, and that was a buffbot on live. Only difference here is you need buff potions, how you go about getting them is irrelevant, be it making them or buying them. But it basically cost money to RvR as it stands, how much is irrelevant clearly you have more time on your hands then some of us and your solution doesn't work for everyone.

my vote is remove buff potions and endo potions and remove the gap between the people with jobs and families from the basement dwellers.

its 200g in mats and 750 feathers smart guy, why don't you just go grab a few of those real quick as well off the merch...oh wait ya can't I wonder how long it will take you to put these 2 things together. This is what I'm talking about you leaving stuff like that out and passing it off as legit. Alch takes tons and tons of plats to level up but you want their time and investment to be left out of the calculation. Why not I dunno farm the feathers yourself and get an alch to do it with 200g mats and tip them instead of going to the market and using someone else's feathers I know it's so complicated to think of things like this.

Also see my other post about equilibrium. Prices are going to fluxuate but will hit equilibrium. There are no "greedy albs" or whatever others were saying, the market sets the prices by supply and demand, not some gouging, Mr. Burns guy cackling in the corner with all the best loots, get a clue. The reason I'm short with people about this is because its objective, econ 101 stuff and I've got to teach people basic stuff like this when its already settled with this type of stuff across all types of markets everywhere, it isn't up for debate about how prices reach equilibrium in a supply and demand economy.

I have no problem farming feathers, my alchemy is over 900 now, I have a cleric for farming, scout for rvr… minstrel for hadrians tasks.. I clearly have no issues with money or feathers or buying anything in the game that I want. I am simply stating all of the above is required to be successful on this server, Where is I still play here I don't have an issue, I feel like the its going to cost population later on. Most people do not have said time to invest in all of that to be able to compete.

You wont be able to afford to just have one character especially one that doesn't get pve groups to begin with and I feel RVR shouldn't have all of these requirements. on a server that has added so much QoL Does that make sense to you now? Its my opinion, and I hope im wrong, but it will get old for people and when that happens overall population will dwindle naturally.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 5:39 PM by defiasbandit

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Oct 2018 4:28 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:37 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 2:20 PM
You clearly are missing the point here, as you so very often do on all of your responses to peoples posts, So ill dummy it down and be "Intellectually" honest with you.
The Economy in the beta is trash. People are charging plats for full buff pots that's cost what 250g? Alchemists are rolling In the money
The Shear fact that you think its ok to have to farm cash to RvR because it only takes a small amount of time? who are you to decide how valuable my time is what I need to be doing with it? I farmed enough to template my character, now i have to keep coin in my pocket to fund rvr....you're ridiculous. 70-100g recharge cost per item. + Potion Cost and time ( (900+ alchemy btw)
Nobody was comparing a BARREL TO A POTION TO A ELIXIR amount of charges is irrelevant. The point being made is ITS REQUIRED TO COMPETE to carry buff potions.
Everyone is not on a level playfield, again I can explain it slower for you. some classes where given self buffs to put them closer to the line, other classes where not given self buffs for obviously causing the line to rise. With Buff potions, the Line has moved higher and the Self buffs are the same, therefore they are back where they started, only difference being they do more damage faster, but now so does their opponent. So it appears fair and level but its really not. (I don't play self buffing classes here ,I fight them )

So in short, add NPC buff merchants or remove them in its entirety.
this game only ever required one thing to compete, and that was a buffbot on live. Only difference here is you need buff potions, how you go about getting them is irrelevant, be it making them or buying them. But it basically cost money to RvR as it stands, how much is irrelevant clearly you have more time on your hands then some of us and your solution doesn't work for everyone.

my vote is remove buff potions and endo potions and remove the gap between the people with jobs and families from the basement dwellers.

its 200g in mats and 750 feathers smart guy, why don't you just go grab a few of those real quick as well off the merch...oh wait ya can't I wonder how long it will take you to put these 2 things together. This is what I'm talking about you leaving stuff like that out and passing it off as legit. Alch takes tons and tons of plats to level up but you want their time and investment to be left out of the calculation. Why not I dunno farm the feathers yourself and get an alch to do it with 200g mats and tip them instead of going to the market and using someone else's feathers I know it's so complicated to think of things like this.

Also see my other post about equilibrium. Prices are going to fluxuate but will hit equilibrium. There are no "greedy albs" or whatever others were saying, the market sets the prices by supply and demand, not some gouging, Mr. Burns guy cackling in the corner with all the best loots, get a clue. The reason I'm short with people about this is because its objective, econ 101 stuff and I've got to teach people basic stuff like this when its already settled with this type of stuff across all types of markets everywhere, it isn't up for debate about how prices reach equilibrium in a supply and demand economy.

I have no problem farming feathers, my alchemy is over 900 now, I have a cleric for farming, scout for rvr… minstrel for hadrians tasks.. I clearly have no issues with money or feathers or buying anything in the game that I want. I am simply stating all of the above is required to be successful on this server, Where is I still play here I don't have an issue, I feel like the its going to cost population later on. Most people do not have said time to invest in all of that to be able to compete.

You wont be able to afford to just have one character especially one that doesn't get pve groups to begin with and I feel RVR shouldn't have all of these requirements. on a server that has added so much QoL Does that make sense to you now? Its my opinion, and I hope im wrong, but it will get old for people and when that happens overall population will dwindle naturally.

I think they could consider lowering the cost of recharging a bit. Maybe 5 gold instead of 10.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 6:29 PM by imissswg

I hope you at least consider extending the duration of potions. Having to drink pots every 10 minutes will get old fast. Why not the same as all the self buffs are now? Why did you increase the duration of self buffs to 23 minutes...QOL issue? Pots should get the same.

Sat 6 Oct 2018 4:55 PM by Armsmancer

poisonclover wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Oct 2018 4:28 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:37 PM
poisonclover wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 2:20 PM
You clearly are missing the point here, as you so very often do on all of your responses to peoples posts, So ill dummy it down and be "Intellectually" honest with you.
The Economy in the beta is trash. People are charging plats for full buff pots that's cost what 250g? Alchemists are rolling In the money
The Shear fact that you think its ok to have to farm cash to RvR because it only takes a small amount of time? who are you to decide how valuable my time is what I need to be doing with it? I farmed enough to template my character, now i have to keep coin in my pocket to fund rvr....you're ridiculous. 70-100g recharge cost per item. + Potion Cost and time ( (900+ alchemy btw)
Nobody was comparing a BARREL TO A POTION TO A ELIXIR amount of charges is irrelevant. The point being made is ITS REQUIRED TO COMPETE to carry buff potions.
Everyone is not on a level playfield, again I can explain it slower for you. some classes where given self buffs to put them closer to the line, other classes where not given self buffs for obviously causing the line to rise. With Buff potions, the Line has moved higher and the Self buffs are the same, therefore they are back where they started, only difference being they do more damage faster, but now so does their opponent. So it appears fair and level but its really not. (I don't play self buffing classes here ,I fight them )

So in short, add NPC buff merchants or remove them in its entirety.
this game only ever required one thing to compete, and that was a buffbot on live. Only difference here is you need buff potions, how you go about getting them is irrelevant, be it making them or buying them. But it basically cost money to RvR as it stands, how much is irrelevant clearly you have more time on your hands then some of us and your solution doesn't work for everyone.

my vote is remove buff potions and endo potions and remove the gap between the people with jobs and families from the basement dwellers.

its 200g in mats and 750 feathers smart guy, why don't you just go grab a few of those real quick as well off the merch...oh wait ya can't I wonder how long it will take you to put these 2 things together. This is what I'm talking about you leaving stuff like that out and passing it off as legit. Alch takes tons and tons of plats to level up but you want their time and investment to be left out of the calculation. Why not I dunno farm the feathers yourself and get an alch to do it with 200g mats and tip them instead of going to the market and using someone else's feathers I know it's so complicated to think of things like this.

Also see my other post about equilibrium. Prices are going to fluxuate but will hit equilibrium. There are no "greedy albs" or whatever others were saying, the market sets the prices by supply and demand, not some gouging, Mr. Burns guy cackling in the corner with all the best loots, get a clue. The reason I'm short with people about this is because its objective, econ 101 stuff and I've got to teach people basic stuff like this when its already settled with this type of stuff across all types of markets everywhere, it isn't up for debate about how prices reach equilibrium in a supply and demand economy.

I have no problem farming feathers, my alchemy is over 900 now, I have a cleric for farming, scout for rvr… minstrel for hadrians tasks.. I clearly have no issues with money or feathers or buying anything in the game that I want. I am simply stating all of the above is required to be successful on this server, Where is I still play here I don't have an issue, I feel like the its going to cost population later on. Most people do not have said time to invest in all of that to be able to compete.

You wont be able to afford to just have one character especially one that doesn't get pve groups to begin with and I feel RVR shouldn't have all of these requirements. on a server that has added so much QoL Does that make sense to you now? Its my opinion, and I hope im wrong, but it will get old for people and when that happens overall population will dwindle naturally.

Again, despite it being tedious to have the cheap versions of the potions, it is so cheap to get the 10 charge ones and the buff is the same bonus as the omnibuff one. Hell, the omnibuff one is just one of the quality of life custom changes here, so it is bizarre to talk about the price of it to compete when it is the same bonus and just a convenience, and rvr happened before it, so this is all convenience and paying for it, not competition and paying for it.

Also enjoy the climb to 1100 and you'll see why prices are what they are for alchs because they are all homeless beggars after doing that last 100 pts in alch, your mouth will drop when you buy mats for 30 items to craft and see the deduction from your wallet, just to get like 8-12 skill points if you're lucky. This is always left out of the "crafters are greedy" conclusion.

So in conclusion, it costs, rounding up, like 4g per 100 minutes of a stat buff. This is not some crazy sidi drop you need to compete, and again mountains being made out of molehills to try and justify its removal/nerf and the burden of proof has not been met as I have laid out, unless 200g for some pots every now and then is some huge, rvr swaying mechanic, which it isn't - you can be stun nuked down being fully buffed in pots with a chanter without even his shields up, so hardly a solid case against pots here.

Sat 6 Oct 2018 5:26 PM by AngelRose

It is going to hurt the population. I was all excited to play this server till I saw the buff situation. Devs want to force people to group, or craft, or pay for buffs. Thats fine. But I have no interest in any of that and will not be playing. I am only one person, but probably not the only one. I don't have tons of time to game, and just want to rvr, either solo or smallman, not craft or farm.

Sat 6 Oct 2018 5:33 PM by defiasbandit

The issue is that it is clunky.

The full buff bots don't even compare to full group buffs.

The charge items run 10 gold per use and you can only use them once every 2 or 3 minutes.

The full buffs and charge buffs only last 10 minutes. You are constantly having to rebuff yourself and have to wait 5-10 minutes to even apply all the charge buffs.

It is just really clunky and can get costly.

Groups instead can just full buff to the best stats in a few seconds. I don't get what the point of putting players who don't want to play with a buffer at such a disadvantage.

There are few things that make players quit PvP games faster than blatant power differences between players. DAOC isn't balanced and was never meant to be, but buffing is something that can easily be balanced in the game.

That is just now how games are made these days. We want competitive PvP. Buffing is bad in DAOC and always has been.

Sat 6 Oct 2018 7:22 PM by Armsmancer

AngelRose wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Oct 2018 5:26 PM
"I don't want to work out, but I want to compete with a MMA boxer, and I don't think he should have all those muscles, but I want to fight him still, and it be a fair fight."

If others are willing to upgrade their gear and stats but you aren't, but you want to be on even footing, you are internally inconsistent and have a very bizarre expectation of the game/server you are joining. Every iteration of private and public servers since the release of SI have included alchemy. If you approach this with an expectation other than the default, you should really rethink your thinking process, because you're hanging something negative on the server/admin choices as if they are doing something other than the norm when its in the SI booklet how the expac comes with SC and Alch.

It's one thing to not want them. It's entirely another to approach this and put it in the light as if it by default shouldn't even be in the game except for some admin custom change. The game files literally install this system, it isn't some post hoc change, yet you phrase it as their invention like feathers or something.

Also you have no idea what it will do to the population, your source is your buttocks for that statement about it hurting the population. Really, how so? What % within certain error margins? Yeah that's what I thought, more unjustified presuppositions on the phoenix forums calling on the doomsdays.

Sat 6 Oct 2018 8:03 PM by Armsmancer

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Oct 2018 5:33 PM
The issue is that it is clunky.

The full buff bots don't even compare to full group buffs.

The charge items run 10 gold per use and you can only use them once every 2 or 3 minutes.

The full buffs and charge buffs only last 10 minutes. You are constantly having to rebuff yourself and have to wait 5-10 minutes to even apply all the charge buffs.

It is just really clunky and can get costly.

Groups instead can just full buff to the best stats in a few seconds. I don't get what the point of putting players who don't want to play with a buffer at such a disadvantage.

There are few things that make players quit PvP games faster than blatant power differences between players. DAOC isn't balanced and was never meant to be, but buffing is something that can easily be balanced in the game.

That is just now how games are made these days. We want competitive PvP. Buffing is bad in DAOC and always has been.

Yikes, so many assumptions.

"The full buff bots don't even compare to full group buffs." - where is this stated it is the intended goal or that they are even supposed to compare? It isn't anywhere, btw.

"It is just really clunky and can get costly." It is incredibly cheap to skill up alch to like the 600s where you can just make poisions, and then all the pots for yourself and friends for super cheap, then going forward you pay cost of materials as your own alch, you don't even need to switch characters any more you can be all craft on one person. Cost for a 100 mins of buffs is already super cheap for the boost they give you. Saying it is "costly" is incorrect unless you say a pack of gum is "costly".

"There are few things that make players quit PvP games" oh boy here we go , here comes another statistic that doesn't exist and cannot be cited yet will be put forth as some chiseled in stone, brought down from the mountain-truth, let's see if he can keep it on the road though... "than blatant power differences between players." Ah there we go. Power differences are the rule, not the exception in DOAC. You keep trying to smuggle in things with ambiguous terms, like "blatant". Well describe what you mean by blatant exactly? Is 20 more weaponskill blatant? Is 55? 200? By keeping it ambiguous you get to smuggle in an ambiguous term you can change the meaning of later down the line.

You also leave out how they get there anyways, where these players engage each other, and you are acting like they are both equally prepared. Well they aren't if there's a power imbalance. One guy could be SC'd and the other cannot afford it, that fight is going to be over rather quickly if its something like assassins or casters getting off the stuns/CCs first with their capped dex, right? Where are your posts about this imbalance? Don't you think a tempted character vs an untempted is going to be a very one sided engagement? Where's the pages and pages of debate about this imbalance.

Let me get this straight :

If one player is willing to spend the $$ to get crafted and tempted, and the other one isn't, this is perfectly fine with everyone here.

If one player is willing to spend the $$ to have portable mediocre buffs, and the other one isn't, this is an absolute outrage and SOOooo many people will quit!

Like the player taking a dirt nap that died from no SC'd gear, or instead died from not having blue buffs up, cares at all, he's dead because his opponent did more than him. It's like working out and participating in some MMA match. I've seen some matches where one guy put more effort in than the other and resoundingly won, and it came out later the loser just trash talked and would leave training early all the time. Phoenix isn't pay to win or something, so if you want to enter the RVR game you better prepare yourself, there is no cakes and eat it too, a nuke hits you for what it hits you for, nobody cares you didn't have time to farm to SC your heat resist in a template.