Side stun for zerks - Phoenix Freeshard

good morning folks, just a lil post to speak about the missing style on zerkers which is the side stun one ;/ we can compare to the BM and the mercenary and we can see that we are the only class dual of these 3 light tanks to not have any positional stun, worse than that, we had one and it been taken away on this server , i make this post to ask phoenix staff if it could b thought about? would b some justice to give back that style as you give new styles to scouts .
Getroasted

Tue 21 Jul 2020 9:26 AM by Patron

Vendo, 100 % Swing of Leftaxe, highest Strength and 100 % proc with 50 left axe, Celerity and still want more?
Play a Warrior or Thane if u wanna stun ur opponents!

Hello Person A, get off...

Tue 21 Jul 2020 9:31 AM by ptitbiscuit

Patron wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 9:26 AM
Vendo, 100 % Swing of Leftaxe, highest Strength and 100 % proc with 50 left axe, Celerity and still want more?
Play a Warrior or Thane if u wanna stun ur opponents!

Hello Person A, get off...

Its not about wanting more sir, its about having what the class should have already , whats the 100% proc with 50 leftaxe you talking about the 3style back chain? where it used to be 2 on live after side stun? i aint here to make any angryness or anything just ask if there s a reason why that class isnt like it should be.

Tue 21 Jul 2020 10:46 AM by Patron

Base for your claimed live-setting is that other classes have enhancements too. When Warden get Shieldstun and Friar gets Grouphealstyles, maybe Berzis get stun

Here they have it not, so the Berzi have it not too.

Maybe when the staff bring the style-patch your claim is right. But till this happens, there is no reason, why the Berzi should have this.
Right?

Tue 21 Jul 2020 11:55 AM by inoeth

Patron wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Jul 2020 10:46 AM
Base for your claimed live-setting is that other classes have enhancements too. When Warden get Shieldstun and Friar gets Grouphealstyles, maybe Berzis get stun
Here they have it not, so the Berzi have it not too.

Maybe when the staff bring the style-patch your claim is right. But till this happens, there is no reason, why the Berzi should have this.
Right?

because warden does not have specable shield zerks dont get side stuns? weird logic

Tue 21 Jul 2020 6:11 PM by Noashakra

vendo>>spectral blade>>fumble in 8vs8
100% hit chance with better styles? And you want a side stun?

Getroasted

Make sense now

Wed 22 Jul 2020 4:26 AM by protege

I'm for this if SBs get it as well <3

Wed 22 Jul 2020 6:38 AM by Sepplord

The announced style revamp included giving "mirror"-classes similar access to utility styles

That change is taking its time though, which is a good thing considering how big of a change it will (would?) be.
I wouldn't expect a stylechange for a specific class outside of the big style-change

Sun 26 Jul 2020 9:17 PM by cmckenzie1452

I can attest that mid certainly gets the worst light tank on the server. While they may do more dps overall, it makes little difference to a merc and BM that can slam on contact, flurry for the extra burst, and side stun when needed. Vendo, in comparison to the other 2, is a worse alternative in 8v8. Losing your defensive abilities for extra damage is not nearly as useful as dirty tricks and triple wield. If your dps is that weak in 8v8, when you have CELERITY, your group has problems. I often look forward to watching zerks go vendo on my BM. It's an easy win, and it isn't fair. But the server isn't exactly fair to begin with. This shit needs some major balancing.

Mon 27 Jul 2020 12:58 PM by inoeth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Jul 2020 6:38 AM
The announced style revamp included giving "mirror"-classes similar access to utility styles

That change is taking its time though, which is a good thing considering how big of a change it will (would?) be.
I wouldn't expect a stylechange for a specific class outside of the big style-change

i dont believe style changes are going to come anymore tbh.... just like the "reward" for the kissed by fire event

Mon 27 Jul 2020 2:21 PM by Forlornhope

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jul 2020 12:58 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Jul 2020 6:38 AM
The announced style revamp included giving "mirror"-classes similar access to utility styles

That change is taking its time though, which is a good thing considering how big of a change it will (would?) be.
I wouldn't expect a stylechange for a specific class outside of the big style-change

i dont believe style changes are going to come anymore tbh.... just like the "reward" for the kissed by fire event

I thought thy added a custom pet that you can get for free from that event?

Mon 27 Jul 2020 3:30 PM by inoeth

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jul 2020 2:21 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jul 2020 12:58 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Jul 2020 6:38 AM
The announced style revamp included giving "mirror"-classes similar access to utility styles

That change is taking its time though, which is a good thing considering how big of a change it will (would?) be.
I wouldn't expect a stylechange for a specific class outside of the big style-change

i dont believe style changes are going to come anymore tbh.... just like the "reward" for the kissed by fire event

I thought thy added a custom pet that you can get for free from that event?

did they? well a pet.. wow

Wed 29 Jul 2020 6:21 AM by Noashakra

cmckenzie1452 wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Jul 2020 9:17 PM
I can attest that mid certainly gets the worst light tank on the server. While they may do more dps overall, it makes little difference to a merc and BM that can slam on contact, flurry for the extra burst, and side stun when needed. Vendo, in comparison to the other 2, is a worse alternative in 8v8. Losing your defensive abilities for extra damage is not nearly as useful as dirty tricks and triple wield. If your dps is that weak in 8v8, when you have CELERITY, your group has problems. I often look forward to watching zerks go vendo on my BM. It's an easy win, and it isn't fair. But the server isn't exactly fair to begin with. This shit needs some major balancing.

lol vendo worst than flurry and dt in 8vs8.... what's next? savage is the worst melee in the game for 8vs8?
losing defense in 8vs8 is peanuts.
You speak about zerk vs bm, it's a duel, and yeah the zerk is a poor dueler compared to the others. But it's not 8vs8...

Wed 29 Jul 2020 7:30 AM by Cadebrennus

Neither myself nor the healers I've ever played with have worried about BMs or Mercs nearly as much as they have about Zerks when they're on our casters.

Wed 29 Jul 2020 2:49 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jul 2020 6:21 AM
losing defense in 8vs8 is peanuts.

This is true, if you're fighting bad players.

Good ones turn on the vendo and destroy it in 3 seconds.

Wed 29 Jul 2020 6:46 PM by Noashakra

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jul 2020 2:49 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jul 2020 6:21 AM
losing defense in 8vs8 is peanuts.

This is true, if you're fighting bad players.

Good ones turn on the vendo and destroy it in 3 seconds.

What? The zerk has no shield. Even with an assist of 3 tanks, on your zerk you will not go down in 3 seconds... I want to know which tanks on hib or alb can deal 244dmg per second (to kill a 2200 hp tank) to a tank with 19% abs.
Which game are you plaing?

Wed 29 Jul 2020 6:56 PM by Ibs

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jul 2020 2:49 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jul 2020 6:21 AM
losing defense in 8vs8 is peanuts.

This is true, if you're fighting bad players.

Good ones turn on the vendo and destroy it in 3 seconds.

Well if you're talking specifically about good opponents, you'll just get melted in less than 3 seconds by debuff nuke assist trains regardless if you're a bear or not. So i don't really see the point you're trying to prove.
Vendo when paired with your 4.7 spd offhand always swinging, and celerity is pretty unique and powerful when compared to bm/merc dt/da/flurry in an 8v8 environment.

Wed 29 Jul 2020 7:44 PM by ExcretusMaximus

If your 3-4 tanks can't kill a vendoed out zerker in less than 4 seconds, it's a player problem, not a mechanic one.

There's no mainhand 4.7 weapon in Midgard, let alone an offhand one. Making up and/or inflating numbers does not help your argument.

Wed 29 Jul 2020 7:52 PM by Ibs

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jul 2020 7:44 PM
If your 3-4 tanks can't kill a vendoed out zerker in less than 4 seconds, it's a player problem, not a mechanic one.

There's no mainhand 4.7 weapon in Midgard, let alone an offhand one. Making up and/or inflating numbers does not help your argument.

Sorry steinvors axe is 4.2 offhand, that totally invalidates my point /s...

Point being mid has celerity, vendo, slow as a snail offhand for both zerk and savage which ramps burst dps significantly. What's the slowest oh alb or hib can get? Oh wait they don't have celerity and don't swing with their offhand every attack so they aren't even looking for a slow dps weapon....

Wed 29 Jul 2020 8:03 PM by Noashakra

Again, give me 3 tanks that can do the DPS you need to kill a full buffed zerk in less than 3 sec. A BM will do maybe 600 if he is lucky to hit with both hand twice. In which world are you living?
If you healers can't react (and they should if the tanks assist your tanks) wtf is going on, it's you who need better supports.

Wed 29 Jul 2020 8:43 PM by cmckenzie1452

Y'all are talking about DPS of a zerk as if it's in this perfect setting where they aren't snared or stunned out before they get to their target. Yes, they do more DPS than the other light tanks, but as I said before, their utility is completely lacking. Not having a shield or ANY form of positional stun is far more important than the damage they COULD do. They can't flurry away a pbt before hitting, they can't stun out an enemy peeler, they can't guard a caster getting melee'd, they can't even act as good cannon fodder, especially while in vendo. BM and Merc have it much nicer, just as OP has mentioned. Something tells me these people haven't even played a light tank.

Wed 29 Jul 2020 9:30 PM by Noashakra

Man I speak about Vendo vs the other abilities...
Saying it's the worst of the three is factually not true.

I don't speak about stun shield etc.

Thu 30 Jul 2020 3:14 PM by hyshash

cmckenzie1452 wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jul 2020 8:43 PM
Y'all are talking about DPS of a zerk as if it's in this perfect setting where they aren't snared or stunned out before they get to their target. Yes, they do more DPS than the other light tanks, but as I said before, their utility is completely lacking. Not having a shield or ANY form of positional stun is far more important than the damage they COULD do. They can't flurry away a pbt before hitting, they can't stun out an enemy peeler, they can't guard a caster getting melee'd, they can't even act as good cannon fodder, especially while in vendo. BM and Merc have it much nicer, just as OP has mentioned. Something tells me these people haven't even played a light tank.

i srsly want to change our merc for a zerker not thinking about that change for a sec
not having a backsnare on a light tank makes up for anything the merc can offer in comparision to a zerker
if youre not able to keep your target withing range while your snared yourself and by that not being able to do any dmg at all is way worse then anything you described

Sun 2 Aug 2020 12:17 AM by Patron

Dps or Utility. You cant have both...
And as the best dps lighttank you should not have a good utility. Play warrior if u want util...
Nuff said

Sun 2 Aug 2020 6:01 AM by Cadebrennus

Patron wrote: ↑
Sun 2 Aug 2020 12:17 AM
Dps or Utility. You cant have both...
And as the best dps lighttank you should not have a good utility. Play warrior if u want util...
Nuff said

Exactly.

DPS = Zerker>BM>Merc
Utility = Merc>BM>Zerk

That looks like balance to me.

Wed 19 Aug 2020 1:01 PM by DinoTriz

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 2 Aug 2020 6:01 AM
Exactly.

DPS = Zerker>BM>Merc
Utility = Merc>BM>Zerk

That looks like balance to me.

I remember someone did the calculations on how much more DPS Berserkers did over the other Light Tanks and it was something like 5.5% more.

It could have been between LA and DW/CD but still, that's tiny.

Sure, a Troll will have more STR and Vendo has a chance to burst more damage. (Which isn't a set percentage btw...You can Vendo and only increase crit by 10% if you're unlucky)

At the very least, Berserker's LA line needs some reworking. There's a reason why Berserkers spam Doublefrost non-stop. It's because it's one of the only styles you can use besides the back chain.

Wed 19 Aug 2020 1:51 PM by inoeth

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Aug 2020 1:01 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 2 Aug 2020 6:01 AM
Exactly.

DPS = Zerker>BM>Merc
Utility = Merc>BM>Zerk

That looks like balance to me.

I remember someone did the calculations on how much more DPS Berserkers did over the other Light Tanks and it was something like 5.5% more.

It could have been between LA and DW/CD but still, that's tiny.

Sure, a Troll will have more STR and Vendo has a chance to burst more damage. (Which isn't a set percentage btw...You can Vendo and only increase crit by 10% if you're unlucky)

At the very least, Berserker's LA line needs some reworking. There's a reason why Berserkers spam Doublefrost non-stop. It's because it's one of the only styles you can use besides the back chain.

formulas are:

LA
Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

which adds up to following at rr5:

mh= 99.0% dmg
oh= 85.7% dmg

cd/dw

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + 0.86 * CD/DW spec

which adds up to following at rr5:

mh= 100% dmg
oh chance= 80.9% while 100% dmg

so when assuming weaponspeeds is the same for all classes and hands the difference is 3.8% towards the berserk for unstyled swings
while on live the difference is more significant there the formula for dw/cd is

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + 0.68 * CD/DW spec

which adds up to following at rr5:

mh= 100% dmg
oh= 69.2% while 100% dmg

so on live the zerk does alot more dmg (15.5%) while lacking of utility, here the dmg is nearly equal but berserks still lacking of utility

same thing applies to shadowblades, they have the least spec points and therefore deal a bit more dmg on live while here the dmg between all the assassins is pretty much the same but the others have more spec points and dmg type advantage.

Wed 19 Aug 2020 9:43 PM by Noashakra

You forget that Mid is the only realm with celerity.
You also don't take into account that 100% off hand hits = more weapon procs and less variance.

Thu 20 Aug 2020 6:28 AM by inoeth

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Aug 2020 9:43 PM
You forget that Mid is the only realm with celerity.
You also don't take into account that 100% off hand hits = more weapon procs and less variance.

no i did not forget this, but since that is the same on live or at least in case of celerity, was the same, i did not mention that because it does not matter imo.
fact is berserk should do alot more dmg than its counter parts which is not the case on phoenix, therefore vote for sidestun to increase at least its utility

Thu 20 Aug 2020 7:14 AM by Sepplord

more offensive proccs is cancelled by more defensive proccs too

Thu 20 Aug 2020 12:42 PM by byron

I think it's quite a Midgard issue with weapon styles (I don't want to compare to other realms, I know that we would like to have better stuff for our own realm/char): all players with a tank are using hammer (even zerkers) because it's the only weapon that has some utlity style (snare on the back style). So we see that all the chars are specced in the same way and it is quite boring. It would be nice that each weapon would have its own strong positional style different from the others so that the player can choose what is best for him. We would see some diversity and not a copy and paste of the same char like now.

Thu 20 Aug 2020 12:56 PM by DinoTriz

byron wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Aug 2020 12:42 PM
I think it's quite a Midgard issue with weapon styles (I don't want to compare to other realms, I know that we would like to have better stuff for our own realm/char): all players with a tank are using hammer (even zerkers) because it's the only weapon that has some utlity style (snare on the back style). So we see that all the chars are specced in the same way and it is quite boring. It would be nice that each weapon would have its own strong positional style different from the others so that the player can choose what is best for him. We would see some diversity and not a copy and paste of the same char like now.

Exactly. Everyone is pretty much forced to go Hammer.

I'd personally love to spec Axe, because Berserkers NEED to carry two axes - anything else is heresy to the lore of a berserker.

But seriously, the LA line doesn't even have side positionals! What kind of melee line doesn't have side styles??

It doesn't have to be a Stun or a Snare...but ONE side style would be nice.

Also, given that Berserkers don't have shield spec, it would be nice if their Axe and Sword lines would have their After Block styles replaced with something a little more useful.

Thu 20 Aug 2020 3:29 PM by Cadebrennus

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Aug 2020 9:43 PM
You forget that Mid is the only realm with celerity.
You also don't take into account that 100% off hand hits = more weapon procs and less variance.

He didn't forget. He chooses to omit.

Fri 21 Aug 2020 6:47 AM by Noashakra

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Aug 2020 7:14 AM
more offensive proccs is cancelled by more defensive proccs too

It's not cancelled. If you can proc haste faster (a proc that lasts 30sec) and switch weapons for offensive proc, it's a bonus. Also, weapons procs ignore ablatives, so it's a huge bonus.
Also the haste effect from the left hand applies to each swing for the zerk. It's not the case for the BM and merc.

Fri 21 Aug 2020 6:56 AM by Sepplord

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Aug 2020 6:47 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Aug 2020 7:14 AM
more offensive proccs is cancelled by more defensive proccs too
It's not cancelled. If you can proc haste faster (a proc that lasts 30sec) and switch weapons for offensive proc, it's a bonus. Also, weapons procs ignore ablatives, so it's a huge bonus.

i would be intrested to see actual and realistic math for perfectly switching weapons VS MHB and healproccs, i am not convinced that it is as clear as you claim.
Healproccs and MHBs mitigate much more dmg, than a dmg procc adds. Haste adds more dmg, but as you said, that is a single procc every 30seconds, and after that you are back to the much lower value proccs, so the average offensive procc value is somewhere between.

Procc-dmg ignoring MHB is irrelevant, since you always do weapondmg too, that get's mitigated. As long as a MHB is mitigating damage, it can "cancel out" procc dmg in a comparison of benefits, even if procc-dmg itself is not mitigated

Fri 21 Aug 2020 7:34 AM by inoeth

also keep in mind that dd procs delve for 95 and mhb for 150 so the defensive procs mitigate much more than a the actual dd adds