any plans to make pally more group viable ?

hey,

i still feel that the paladin is very unloved in alb for group play. is there any work on to improve his performance in grp ?? like give him cele, stoicism or any other gimmick making him useful ?

greetings

Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:46 PM by ExcretusMaximus

It's not a matter of paladins being weak, but a matter of Albion casters being broken; stop running nothing but 5 caster cheese groups and he'll see some groups.

Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:49 PM by In.Flames

thanks for the salt

Sun 16 Aug 2020 5:13 PM by joshisanonymous

They made a couple changes to paladins in June. What exactly makes them unviable in groups? (Not a rhetorical question; I think the thread would be more productive if there were specific issues brought up.)

Sun 16 Aug 2020 6:16 PM by Neso

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 16 Aug 2020 5:13 PM
They made a couple changes to paladins in June. What exactly makes them unviable in groups? (Not a rhetorical question; I think the thread would be more productive if there were specific issues brought up.)

Armsmen.
Stoic, Dashing Defence, Soldiers Barr, Anytime snare, HO race option, no macro spamming.

Paladin doesn't bring much besides AF and endo. AOTG can be useful, but then most groups are caster based on alb and prefer the peels/tank slot as armsman.
Another problem is the lack of active higher RR paladin players.

DPS? Merc or Reaver
Peeler? Arms
Paladin sits between everything which is their biggest problem in groups. Just meh...

Sun 16 Aug 2020 8:06 PM by inoeth

pala has back snare and side snare, not too bad but arms in general is the better option if there is just one tank spot in the grp

Sun 16 Aug 2020 10:44 PM by Forlornhope

Pally is group viable, but there's a difference between viable and optimal, which it is not. The problem's not the class it's more about people trying for the best group comp possible 100% of the time. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. People just treat it like a competition.

Mon 17 Aug 2020 9:44 AM by Ele

Paly has its niche in hybrid setups as a second melee and can be included in full melee setups, but in both setups it is more of an optional last slot, not a mandatory one, and competes over it with the other melees/hybrids. In that it is comparable to champs, which are one of the possible melees in a 4/4 or 3/5 tanker, but not mandatory, like e.g. a vw. They already got their dmg buffed, more spec points and the possibility to spec det. Paly is fine on paper, but tends to not get invited due to the meta.
Regarding your suggestions:

In.Flames wrote: give him cele, stoicism or any other gimmick

If palys get celerity, my guess is that it
a) puts him on a mandatory slot in melee groups.
b) turns him into a totally unbalanced beast in solo/smallman scenarios, where he already shines out, because he gets a xx% (depending on value) flat dmg increase due to the way celerity works.

If palys get stoicism, my guess is that it causes
a) other hybrid-players to demand it which would lead to homogenization of melees all across the board.
b) no real change in palys groupability, as any arms will still outperform him, especially because of the available RA's.

I can't really think of other gimmicks paly should get. In addition to his toolkit paly already has recieved the afore mentioned buffs, has access to the group-friendly RA's VR and AotG. My first impulse was to think about AM, but as many alb groups, especially tankers, already run two minsts, having AM three times in a group may be a bit excessive.

tl;dr
Paly only has its niche and I have no idea how to get him into alb groups via buffs.

Mon 17 Aug 2020 9:58 AM by Centenario

1) Pally is almost mandatory for DS for endo
2) change some styles to give pally a good peeling option
3) remove autotrain and give the points for free (or give autotrain to all three weapon specs)
4) Pally should become a hybrid: castable from range (like thane) and healing from range (like warden)

I would rework the whole chant line, with baseline and spec line.
Baseline would be the current chant line, without the AF self-buff, that you get at all level like any casters.
Specline you would have to design a line with Healing, and dps and spec AF, maybe what the devs had in mind with a 20sec cd 20% group heal and maybe some pbaoe heals.

Mon 17 Aug 2020 10:51 AM by inoeth

Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Aug 2020 9:58 AM
1) Pally is almost mandatory for DS for endo
2) change some styles to give pally a good peeling option
3) remove autotrain and give the points for free (or give autotrain to all three weapon specs)
4) Pally should become a hybrid: castable from range (like thane) and healing from range (like warden)

I would rework the whole chant line, with baseline and spec line.
Baseline would be the current chant line, without the AF self-buff, that you get at all level like any casters.
Specline you would have to design a line with Healing, and dps and spec AF, maybe what the devs had in mind with a 20sec cd 20% group heal and maybe some pbaoe heals.

all points completely pointless *facepalmsmily*

1) endu pot, but who cares about PVE anyway... this thread is about RVR
2) has side and back snare
3) this is already the case
4) pala does not have any range dd and should also not get one / pala is not a healer therefore should not get castable heals. pala is a sturdy tank with minimal heals which only work while in combat so he is kind of a combat healer. with castable heals pala would become totally overpowered because then he was waaay stronger than a friar

Mon 17 Aug 2020 11:26 AM by Lollie

*has flashbacks to live pallys with thier healing abilites* *shudder*

Thing is if you gave pallys healing like the wardens then all the wardens will want spec points+damage table like pallys.

They arent in a bad place, more spec points, increased damaged tables, macro for chants. End pots screwed them but the player base/devs screws them more due to the whole caster meta.

Mon 17 Aug 2020 2:26 PM by Centenario

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Aug 2020 10:51 AM
all points completely pointless *facepalmsmily*
1) endu pot, but who cares about PVE anyway... this thread is about RVR
2) has side and back snare
3) this is already the case
4) pala does not have any range dd and should also not get one / pala is not a healer therefore should not get castable heals. pala is a sturdy tank with minimal heals which only work while in combat so he is kind of a combat healer. with castable heals pala would become totally overpowered because then he was waaay stronger than a friar

...why?

1) endu pot is not enough for reaver to spam levis, or they'd have to bring endo pots and endo charges and still it could be an issue on long fights (tried it personally).
2) I am comparing peeling to the armsman (since the issue is making paladin viable) armsman which has anytime snare at 18 pole for 12 sec duration. Paladin has at 39 2-hander back snare or 44 thrust 2-stylechain with low hit bonus, or 15 2-handed side snare or 21 slash sidesnare.
I think he needs a 1-handed backsnare like mid-hammer line.
3) Here the autotrain only works for slash, if you go crush or thrust you dont get the 77 points, and slash has the worst taunt style (no hit bonus)
I would also like to add that the 50 thrust style dragonfang even if it was changed to after-block for paladin, is still too expensive (and useless) when you got slam. On phoenix also going more than composite 52 in weapon is poor. If it could become a high hit bonus anytime snare it would be a lot better.
4) I don't know live pala as I stopped playing DAoC in early 2004. I give suggestion that I think would make it viable and would balance the realms a little, people choose a friar or paladin for resists too. Hibernia has many healing classes. I didnt talk about Nearsight cure, I didnt suggest castable really if u read further the explanation of 4):
"I would rework the whole chant line, with baseline and spec line.
Baseline would be the current chant line, without the AF self-buff, that you get at all level like any casters.
Specline you would have to design a line with Healing, and dps and spec AF, maybe what the devs had in mind with a 20sec cd 20% group heal and maybe some pbaoe heals."

Mon 17 Aug 2020 4:10 PM by Cadebrennus

The "Pally seen as useless" issue is similar to the "Caster groups are non-viable in Mid" issue. Mid Caster groups are scary effective (I fear Mid Caster groups far more than Alb or Hib Caster groups.) The problem however is that Mid Tank groups are that much better than Mid Caster groups, which is why we don't see Mid Caster groups very often.

Tue 18 Aug 2020 6:22 AM by Sepplord

if mid caster groups are far ahead of hib/alb-castergroups, and mid-melee-groups far ahgead of mid-caster groups, then the logical result would be that midgard tankgroups are out of this world against any enemy groups...which i strongly doubt

Tue 18 Aug 2020 10:54 AM by inoeth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Aug 2020 6:22 AM
if mid caster groups are far ahead of hib/alb-castergroups, and mid-melee-groups far ahgead of mid-caster groups, then the logical result would be that midgard tankgroups are out of this world against any enemy groups...which i strongly doubt

im pretty sure he tested that by himself at dummies, but cant show you the test results now

Wed 19 Aug 2020 2:13 PM by Wakefield

Thought just got the auto train points automatically every ding here like the rest of the classes?

Wed 19 Aug 2020 2:15 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Wakefield wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Aug 2020 2:13 PM
Thought just got the auto train points automatically every ding here like the rest of the classes?

Only if you put points into the autotrain line, otherwise it stays at 1.

Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:18 PM by Wakefield

Thought just got the auto train points automatically every ding here like the rest of the classes?

Wed 19 Aug 2020 5:44 PM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Aug 2020 6:22 AM
if mid caster groups are far ahead of hib/alb-castergroups, and mid-melee-groups far ahgead of mid-caster groups, then the logical result would be that midgard tankgroups are out of this world against any enemy groups...which i strongly doubt

Mid Tank groups are the best on the server due to a variety of elements. No one can doubt that. This is why Mid Caster groups aren't as prevalent. It doesn't mean that Mid Tanker groups insta-gib entire enemy zergs.

Wed 19 Aug 2020 8:10 PM by thirian24

The Paladin is in great shape in this server. The problem isn't the Paladin, this issue is alb in general. Alb abilities are spread way way out amongst the classes. This is why it takes so many classes to get to the core of the built before you decide on which DPS you want to run. This also hurts Alb with not having some classes in grp comps that have some very major RAs to choose from.

When you break it down, this is why the Hib 4/4 tanker out shines every other comp and is dominating RvR currently.

They have their 4 core classes and can run 4 very nasty tanks. Everything you could need or want is in that grp setup. Alb doesn't have that ability, so a lot of classes get left out as there are not enough slots in the grp by the time you have speed, buffs, pbt, mezz, rupts.

Thu 20 Aug 2020 8:06 AM by Centenario

thirian24 wrote: The Paladin is in great shape in this server. The problem isn't the Paladin, this issue is alb in general. Alb abilities are spread way way out amongst the classes. This is why it takes so many classes to get to the core of the built before you decide on which DPS you want to run. This also hurts Alb with not having some classes in grp comps that have some very major RAs to choose from.

When you break it down, this is why the Hib 4/4 tanker out shines every other comp and is dominating RvR currently.

They have their 4 core classes and can run 4 very nasty tanks. Everything you could need or want is in that grp setup. Alb doesn't have that ability, so a lot of classes get left out as there are not enough slots in the grp by the time you have speed, buffs, pbt, mezz, rupts.

So are you suggesting to give a core ability to Paladin?
Maybe bubble like the warden or mins.speed, change resists from chants to buffs?

Thu 20 Aug 2020 8:26 AM by inoeth

agree 1 hero, 2 bm, 1 vw is really heavy dmg with the option to also nuke

only NS is missing in the setup, still i think hib tanker is the most dangerous atm

id say cele would encourage albs to run more melee grps but the pala would also much too op for small man or solo game.... so this is a double bladed sword

Fri 21 Aug 2020 1:45 PM by thirian24

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Aug 2020 8:06 AM
thirian24 wrote: The Paladin is in great shape in this server. The problem isn't the Paladin, this issue is alb in general. Alb abilities are spread way way out amongst the classes. This is why it takes so many classes to get to the core of the built before you decide on which DPS you want to run. This also hurts Alb with not having some classes in grp comps that have some very major RAs to choose from.

When you break it down, this is why the Hib 4/4 tanker out shines every other comp and is dominating RvR currently.

They have their 4 core classes and can run 4 very nasty tanks. Everything you could need or want is in that grp setup. Alb doesn't have that ability, so a lot of classes get left out as there are not enough slots in the grp by the time you have speed, buffs, pbt, mezz, rupts.

So are you suggesting to give a core ability to Paladin?
Maybe bubble like the warden or mins.speed, change resists from chants to buffs?

No. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm just stating the matter of fact which is the reasons of the current dynamic.

Tue 25 Aug 2020 2:52 PM by necrolove1

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Aug 2020 8:10 PM
The Paladin is in great shape in this server. The problem isn't the Paladin, this issue is alb in general. Alb abilities are spread way way out amongst the classes. This is why it takes so many classes to get to the core of the built before you decide on which DPS you want to run. This also hurts Alb with not having some classes in grp comps that have some very major RAs to choose from.

When you break it down, this is why the Hib 4/4 tanker out shines every other comp and is dominating RvR currently.

They have their 4 core classes and can run 4 very nasty tanks. Everything you could need or want is in that grp setup. Alb doesn't have that ability, so a lot of classes get left out as there are not enough slots in the grp by the time you have speed, buffs, pbt, mezz, rupts.

This 1000x

Sun 30 Aug 2020 11:30 AM by Noashakra

Hib tanker outshine everything? Which group plays it atm?
I hear this all time and each time everyone fails to give me a group playing it.

Sun 30 Aug 2020 1:43 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 11:30 AM
Hib tanker outshine everything? Which group plays it atm?
I hear this all time and each time everyone fails to give me a group playing it.

And I've told you every time you bring it up that every US PT group but one runs tanks, but you refuse to believe it because you think EU PT is the only time anyone plays.

Sun 30 Aug 2020 8:24 PM by Noashakra

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 1:43 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Aug 2020 11:30 AM
Hib tanker outshine everything? Which group plays it atm?
I hear this all time and each time everyone fails to give me a group playing it.

And I've told you every time you bring it up that every US PT group but one runs tanks, but you refuse to believe it because you think EU PT is the only time anyone plays.

if you speak about the 2 example you gave me, they barely play anymore, and seeing their rank, it's far from "dominating".