Feather and Darkness Falls Changes

We will soon do a couple changes to the feather system:

We will add feathers to most high level nameds in zones like Llyn Barfog, Raumarik and Cursed Forest and other zones, basically every high level named will drop some feathers and use the epic mob system (high hp, level 50 for defensive rolls), most of them will be setup as 1 group fights.

We will remove feathers from all trash mobs except those in epic dungeons and darkness falls.

Mobs level 56 and higher in Darkness Falls will have a level based chance to drop Phoenix Ash and Phoenix Tears (the chance at level 56 will be very low, at 65 (for example hulks) it will be about 2 - 3%), this is in addition to the current feather amount.

Sat 29 Sep 2018 10:43 PM by florin

Awesome thank you!

Sun 30 Sep 2018 2:24 AM by Yint

woot, feathers and tears in df! Nice.

Sun 30 Sep 2018 4:43 PM by defiasbandit

What are considered epic dungeons?

Sun 30 Sep 2018 5:50 PM by Anasth

Gala/sidi/tg i guess?

Sun 30 Sep 2018 10:20 PM by

Uthred

Yes, epic dungeons are Tuscar, Galladoria and Caer Sidi.

Mon 1 Oct 2018 4:41 PM by Draygon

In regards to the changes I feel that overall it may not have the desired effect that you are wanting/looking for. I understand that the change is meant to essentially force players to actively take keeps and get Darkness Falls open, which is good to get more keep taking done, but is bad overall in regards to feathers. I am not sure how it was on the other realms as I have only ever played Albion during the beta but it was fairly difficult to get feathers due to only a few places being worth sitting and farming them. With the new changes those places are gone and here are some issues that we could see:

1. Based on what I have heard from others that have come from other realms Albion has a huge problem with the cost of player created (Alchemy mostly) items. Ive been told that they are 2-3 times higher than on Hib or Mid. I don't know if this is because it is easier to farm the feathers to turn into ash and tears on those realms or if Albs are just greedy, but the market price is high for barrels, etc... With this change and there only being 2 places to get them feathers will be harder to get and that is going to drive the price up higher than they were before.

2. Challenge mode was put in to help groups with a good setup to level a bit easier with the increased difficulty and reward. With the new feather change challenge mode no longer gives increased feathers. This will make feathers more scarce and will again increase the prices on things as I referenced above.

3. The prices on feather items were already high in my, and many others, opinion so if the changes are going to remain then a price reduction could be warranted for the items bought with feathers from the merchants.

4. With the main place to get feathers being an RvR dungeon a suggestion would be to look at also giving feathers for RvR kills. This would make it more viable to do the tasks, get the credit and also earn more feathers while doing so and falls in line with the change to feathers only really coming from DF. As I mentioned earlier I am not sure about the other realms but from my own personal experience it is becoming harder and harder to form a raid to do Sidi, Alb players just dont want to do it and I am told its because the reward is not worth the time it takes to do it. So for Alb players its really Task or DF that will be utilized for feathers so why not look at the 3rd option of Feathers in RvR.
The other thing to keep in mind is that while a end game of this game is RvR, not everyone wants to do RvR and some enjoy more PvE than RvR and will more than likely want another way to get feathers than to be forced to play the RvR game and farm them in an RvR dungeon.

Mon 1 Oct 2018 5:56 PM by defiasbandit

Incentivize nontask Frontier Zones by allowing feather farming there. Have mobs drop items you can collect and turn in for feathers.

It can work like the xp task items in RvR frontier zones. It can bring more RvR to frontiers that are not part of a realm task.

Mon 1 Oct 2018 6:13 PM by

gruenesschaf

Draygon wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Oct 2018 4:41 PM
4. With the main place to get feathers being an RvR dungeon a suggestion would be to look at also giving feathers for RvR kills. This would make it more viable to do the tasks, get the credit and also earn more feathers while doing so and falls in line with the change to feathers only really coming from DF. As I mentioned earlier I am not sure about the other realms but from my own personal experience it is becoming harder and harder to form a raid to do Sidi, Alb players just dont want to do it and I am told its because the reward is not worth the time it takes to do it. So for Alb players its really Task or DF that will be utilized for feathers so why not look at the 3rd option of Feathers in RvR.
The other thing to keep in mind is that while a end game of this game is RvR, not everyone wants to do RvR and some enjoy more PvE than RvR and will more than likely want another way to get feathers than to be forced to play the RvR game and farm them in an RvR dungeon.

The main place to farm feathers are the epic dungeons, the second best way should be farming other high level named mobs either in the other si dungeons or outside (still wip to add them to the ones outside the si dungeons).

Mon 1 Oct 2018 6:27 PM by

Uthred

Today (see servernews/patch notes) we made the first change and removed feathers from the trashmobs except in epic dungeons and in DF. The feather-droptrate of trashmobs in the epic dungeon did not get changed. But the droprate for trashmobs level 56 and higher in DF.

[attachment=1]Amount of Feathers per Moblevel.JPG[/attachment]

We also added ash & tears to mobs lvl 56 and higher. No matter what level the mob is (only needs to be 56+), it will always only drop one ash and one tear. The higher the level of a mob is, the higher the dropchance gets. Each mob can drop ash & tears. When you kill a lvl 56+ mob it will be rolled for ash & tears separately.

[attachment=0]Ash & Tears Dropchance.JPG[/attachment]

Mon 1 Oct 2018 6:44 PM by defiasbandit

What if holding the most keeps only gives a realm access to feather drops in DF, but the dungeon stays neutral.

I think this can promote some fun rvr.

Mon 1 Oct 2018 7:12 PM by Draygon

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Oct 2018 6:13 PM
Draygon wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Oct 2018 4:41 PM
4. With the main place to get feathers being an RvR dungeon a suggestion would be to look at also giving feathers for RvR kills. This would make it more viable to do the tasks, get the credit and also earn more feathers while doing so and falls in line with the change to feathers only really coming from DF. As I mentioned earlier I am not sure about the other realms but from my own personal experience it is becoming harder and harder to form a raid to do Sidi, Alb players just dont want to do it and I am told its because the reward is not worth the time it takes to do it. So for Alb players its really Task or DF that will be utilized for feathers so why not look at the 3rd option of Feathers in RvR.
The other thing to keep in mind is that while a end game of this game is RvR, not everyone wants to do RvR and some enjoy more PvE than RvR and will more than likely want another way to get feathers than to be forced to play the RvR game and farm them in an RvR dungeon.
The main place to farm feathers are the epic dungeons, the second best way should be farming other high level named mobs either in the other si dungeons or outside (still wip to add them to the ones outside the si dungeons).

I understand where you want the main place to be farming feathers from, but for Albs its just not happening. My last Sidi raid I had 20 people show up, that's with advertising and trying to get more for 1.5 hours. In the end we ended up just going to DF because there is no point in doing Sidi with that few people to only kill trash mobs and very few of the easier bosses. What I was saying above is that the changes you made, while with good intentions, I dont believe you will get the results you are looking for and feathers need to be more easily accessible especially with the prices of not only the items you can buy with them, but now alchemy items as well. To farm in DF you need keeps, in order to take keeps you have to have people wanting to take keeps....and that doesnt always happen.

The addition of feathers into the game, even before these changes, essentially removed plat as a currency in the game and moved everything to tears and ash. If there are more areas to farm feathers that may change again but until then gold isnt worth much.

Mon 1 Oct 2018 8:17 PM by Yint

I am glad that there is a reason to go to DF now, but i tested the drop rates today and have to say that it was not very rewarding. Our group started at hulks and they were dropping 3 feathers per, very easy to farm but the feather rate was too slow so we ventured deeper. We pushed past gatekeeper dommel, he dropped something like 60 feathers and was a red mob. That looked promising so we went deeper and killed dukes and earls, those mobs were just as hard as dommel and only dropped 6 feathers per person in our full group the other trash dropping only 2 feathers. We killed a high lord and he dropped 100ish feathers for a 5-7 min fight, so even if we chained insta popping high lords(they dont) that would be 1k feathers per hour for 1 full group.

After about 1.5-2 hours of doing this i ended with less than 700ish feathers, 4 phoneix tears, and 3 phoenix ash.

My first impression is that feather droprates need to be increased in there, only the high lords and dommel dropping 60-100 feathers and the rest dropping 2 or 3 is really really slow farm. And we still end up with a bag full of useless diamond seals that we cant use for anything decent.

Mon 1 Oct 2018 9:14 PM by florin

Draygon wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Oct 2018 7:12 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Oct 2018 6:13 PM
Draygon wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Oct 2018 4:41 PM
4. With the main place to get feathers being an RvR dungeon a suggestion would be to look at also giving feathers for RvR kills. This would make it more viable to do the tasks, get the credit and also earn more feathers while doing so and falls in line with the change to feathers only really coming from DF. As I mentioned earlier I am not sure about the other realms but from my own personal experience it is becoming harder and harder to form a raid to do Sidi, Alb players just dont want to do it and I am told its because the reward is not worth the time it takes to do it. So for Alb players its really Task or DF that will be utilized for feathers so why not look at the 3rd option of Feathers in RvR.
The other thing to keep in mind is that while a end game of this game is RvR, not everyone wants to do RvR and some enjoy more PvE than RvR and will more than likely want another way to get feathers than to be forced to play the RvR game and farm them in an RvR dungeon.
The main place to farm feathers are the epic dungeons, the second best way should be farming other high level named mobs either in the other si dungeons or outside (still wip to add them to the ones outside the si dungeons).

I understand where you want the main place to be farming feathers from, but for Albs its just not happening. My last Sidi raid I had 20 people show up, that's with advertising and trying to get more for 1.5 hours. In the end we ended up just going to DF because there is no point in doing Sidi with that few people to only kill trash mobs and very few of the easier bosses. What I was saying above is that the changes you made, while with good intentions, I dont believe you will get the results you are looking for and feathers need to be more easily accessible especially with the prices of not only the items you can buy with them, but now alchemy items as well. To farm in DF you need keeps, in order to take keeps you have to have people wanting to take keeps....and that doesnt always happen.

The addition of feathers into the game, even before these changes, essentially removed plat as a currency in the game and moved everything to tears and ash. If there are more areas to farm feathers that may change again but until then gold isnt worth much.

To Draygons point, even though I welcome these changes, - I am very seriously considering not being an alb at launch. Even though alb has my favorite classes, the economy is broken price per item wise. Additionally this is compounded for not clear reasons with albs not wanting DF - as opposed to hibs and mids who are constantly in DF. There is something about that alb economy that makes DF not necessary - moving feathers to DF is great but i think will hurt albs unless theres a reason for them to go there - hoping feathers is enough incentive.

Tue 2 Oct 2018 5:07 PM by Armsmancer

"albs are greedy"

someone needs to take a econ 101 course i think. I don't log into my mid alch then my alb alch and get some magic spell cast on me because I clicked the grail icon, now i sell my pots for more, because...screw saracens!!!! yeah makes sense that's what is going on

Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:38 PM by Draygon

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 5:07 PM
"albs are greedy"

someone needs to take a econ 101 course i think. I don't log into my mid alch then my alb alch and get some magic spell cast on me because I clicked the grail icon, now i sell my pots for more, because...screw saracens!!!! yeah makes sense that's what is going on

Please explain then, with a valid reason, why Alb pots/barrels/weapons, etc... go for 2-3 times the rate they do on Hib or Mid? There is a imbalance right now in gold due to the Minstrel bug (exploit that some used) to flood the market with gold, so prices are inflated for that currently. Even on other servers Alb was always much higher than Hib or Mid was when it came to buying or selling items. So without being a jerk and insulting as you were above with the Econ 101 comment (I have a BA in Business Management btw so I understand everything in that regard) why that is?

Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:58 PM by Magesty

You are going to quickly learn that the argument you are about to engage in will not be worth the wasted time and breath.

Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:04 PM by cocio_dk

Moving Feather farm to DF (pvp zone) was freakng amaxing idea. i love it., HOWEVER the droprate of feathers is simply 2 low when ur in a grp. you need 2 up the feather count also because we do it in pvp area. feathers/tears/ash have become and will stay the new currency., and making it too hard to get will kill the casual gamers. good work on server, great job

Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:09 PM by Draygon

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:58 PM
You are going to quickly learn that the argument you are about to engage in will not be worth the wasted time and breath.

Me? Or him? Im genuinely asking the question why is it ok that Albs charge more than the other realms? When the new game currency feathers/tears/ash is the same for all realms.

Im not opposed to the changes, I just believe that the drop rate of feathers needs to go up because it doesnt promote grouping it promotes solo farming with the pool dropping per group member. That and I think challenge mode should still reward the greater risk as it did before.

To add to this, a Caer Sidi raid, the last one I did, took 4 hours to do and we got 8k feathers by the end. From what Ive been told Tusk Glacier is done in 3 hours and they leave with 14k feathers.

Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:11 PM by Draygon

cocio_dk wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:04 PM
Moving Feather farm to DF (pvp zone) was freakng amaxing idea. i love it., HOWEVER the droprate of feathers is simply 2 low when ur in a grp. you need 2 up the feather count also because we do it in pvp area. feathers/tears/ash have become and will stay the new currency., and making it too hard to get will kill the casual gamers. good work on server, great job

Pretty much what Ive been saying just summed up very nicely. I am in no way bashing the decisions, just asking for it to be looked at differently and adjusted a bit.

Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:22 PM by Jokerall

cocio_dk wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:04 PM
Moving Feather farm to DF (pvp zone) was freakng amaxing idea. i love it., HOWEVER the droprate of feathers is simply 2 low when ur in a grp. you need 2 up the feather count also because we do it in pvp area. feathers/tears/ash have become and will stay the new currency., and making it too hard to get will kill the casual gamers. good work on server, great job

This.

I really like the idea of making Darkness Falls usefull again, but with those drop rates ppl will quickly realize that its not worth it, unless you're soloing, since it penalizes grouping right now.
Also albs have a really hard time gathering enough people for sidi because of the high difficulty and design of the dungeon, so having no sidi and reaaally low drop rates in df as a group will make prices skyrocket even higher than they are now (3-4p for a combined barrel on alb right now).

Tue 2 Oct 2018 9:13 PM by Neoz

I had a session in DF tonight, and the droprate for feathers is really, really bad. we chain many red just near domnel but the droprate is too poor compare to Avalon City.
i won just 2/3 ash and tears in 2 hours.

I really love the idea of Draygon, about winning Feathers in RvR !

So please Dev Team, could you review the droprate in DF, and maybe look at the good idea in this thread ? )

Regards,

Tue 2 Oct 2018 11:57 PM by Armsmancer

Draygon wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:38 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 5:07 PM
"albs are greedy"

someone needs to take a econ 101 course i think. I don't log into my mid alch then my alb alch and get some magic spell cast on me because I clicked the grail icon, now i sell my pots for more, because...screw saracens!!!! yeah makes sense that's what is going on

Please explain then, with a valid reason, why Alb pots/barrels/weapons, etc... go for 2-3 times the rate they do on Hib or Mid? There is a imbalance right now in gold due to the Minstrel bug (exploit that some used) to flood the market with gold, so prices are inflated for that currently. Even on other servers Alb was always much higher than Hib or Mid was when it came to buying or selling items. So without being a jerk and insulting as you were above with the Econ 101 comment (I have a BA in Business Management btw so I understand everything in that regard) why that is?

Don't be scared by the whiners, these are people who cannot muster a defense for their points and choose to use ad hominems and other logical fallacies or become ostriches and just do not answer the challenge I offer to their points, its kindergarten mentality of just run away or call him a meany for pointing out glaring flaws.

To directly respond to your question : Prices hit equilibrium when the demand for an item meets the supply which they teach this in econ 101. I can't sell a pot for 500 plat but I can sell it for 5p on alb, and yes I have to sell it for less on midgard on my alch there. This is because there is more money in the market on alb and less on midgard, or could also be there's many more alchs on mid saturating the supply. Could also be that midgard class Shaman is much more popular and so the demand is lower. Alb does not = Mid for several reasons. Appealing to some rich Monty Burns guys is silly as an explanation. I can't sell my jalopy of a truck for more than someone is willing to purchase it for. The item is what the buyer decides it is worth, not some third party not involved in the transaction. This is all covered in economics and makes sense when you think about the examples I put there.

If the item is regularly selling for 5p then it is worth 5p. If it doesn't sell after a week or two then the seller will usually lower their price, which will make it hit equilibrium and meet the demand.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 12:46 AM by defiasbandit

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 11:57 PM
Draygon wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:38 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 5:07 PM
"albs are greedy"

someone needs to take a econ 101 course i think. I don't log into my mid alch then my alb alch and get some magic spell cast on me because I clicked the grail icon, now i sell my pots for more, because...screw saracens!!!! yeah makes sense that's what is going on

Please explain then, with a valid reason, why Alb pots/barrels/weapons, etc... go for 2-3 times the rate they do on Hib or Mid? There is a imbalance right now in gold due to the Minstrel bug (exploit that some used) to flood the market with gold, so prices are inflated for that currently. Even on other servers Alb was always much higher than Hib or Mid was when it came to buying or selling items. So without being a jerk and insulting as you were above with the Econ 101 comment (I have a BA in Business Management btw so I understand everything in that regard) why that is?

Don't be scared by the whiners, these are people who cannot muster a defense for their points and choose to use ad hominems and other logical fallacies or become ostriches and just do not answer the challenge I offer to their points, its kindergarten mentality of just run away or call him a meany for pointing out glaring flaws.

To directly respond to your question : Prices hit equilibrium when the demand for an item meets the supply which they teach this in econ 101. I can't sell a pot for 500 plat but I can sell it for 5p on alb, and yes I have to sell it for less on midgard on my alch there. This is because there is more money in the market on alb and less on midgard, or could also be there's many more alchs on mid saturating the supply. Could also be that midgard class Shaman is much more popular and so the demand is lower. Alb does not = Mid for several reasons. Appealing to some rich Monty Burns guys is silly as an explanation. I can't sell my jalopy of a truck for more than someone is willing to purchase it for. The item is what the buyer decides it is worth, not some third party not involved in the transaction. This is all covered in economics and makes sense when you think about the examples I put there.

If the item is regularly selling for 5p then it is worth 5p. If it doesn't sell after a week or two then the seller will usually lower their price, which will make it hit equilibrium and meet the demand.

Alot of players on Phoenix do not want to PvE to be competitive in RvR. It is that simple.

Albion does not raid Caer Sidi much. Albion players have a harder time getting feathers in dungeons. This new feather system in Darkness Falls might actuall yexacerbate that issue driving prices even higher.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 1:00 AM by Armsmancer

You're trying to use the beta population and experience to justify a change that would affect live, which is not intuitive at all and doesn't justify such a change. Your exhibit A is not applicable and not good enough even if allowed in to consider making some sweeping change, all because the current population on 1 realm of beta doesn't find the dungeon appealing enough to go spend time doing. You cannot quantify any of the things you are talking about. Falling behind? How far behind are others falling? These are things needing to be known to adjust any parameter or value on the server settings, yet all we are getting is "its imba, fix it!" like how with that total info....

Wed 3 Oct 2018 1:19 AM by defiasbandit

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 1:00 AM
You're trying to use the beta population and experience to justify a change that would affect live, which is not intuitive at all and doesn't justify such a change. Your exhibit A is not applicable and not good enough even if allowed in to consider making some sweeping change, all because the current population on 1 realm of beta doesn't find the dungeon appealing enough to go spend time doing. You cannot quantify any of the things you are talking about. Falling behind? How far behind are others falling? These are things needing to be known to adjust any parameter or value on the server settings, yet all we are getting is "its imba, fix it!" like how with that total info....

I agree that we don't really know how it will play out with potentially thousands of players.

I think that on live there will be more Raids happening. It should make feathers more plentiful for all realms. I get that the devs want the Raids to have a purpose in the game, but I think that feathers can best used as incentive to promote RvR.

Having them drop in DF will hopefully encourage players to take keeps. Just like having them be more attainable in frontier zones could bring more players to farm in them.

Let's say you play at offpeak hours and you are short 3-4 keeps to access DF. What if Raids just aren't happening as often during your window of playtime.

Sure this is hypothetical, but it is a scenario a lot of players might be facing on the server. Allowing them to farm feathers in smaller groups out in the frontiers remedies a lot of this.

I think feather farming can be faster in raids or DF, but should still be possible solo or small man in RvR zones.

I think the xp tasks in the frontiers is one of the best features on the server. Having systems like that for level 50 players is even better.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 1:29 AM by florin

They will be adding feathers to epic level mobs in other regions like Barfog. That should be enough. These are group farmable (likely solo exploitable) also trash mobs in sidi. Also sidi raiders can /release to dungeon entrance and avoid losing time on the run over.

No mention of a healer at entrance

Uthred made the point that feathers are not supposed to be farmable...but for high level content. Likely this will drive prices higher or incentivize more raids. We shall see. I predict raids initially that will drop off as the population stabilizes - unless we have someone like draygon stepping up weekly to run them.

Likely what will happen is several dedicated groups that farm and keep supply limited like the diamond industry.

The solution is to either make feathers worthless or easily attainable - unless you are looking for #1 capitalist title.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 1:34 AM by defiasbandit

florin wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 1:29 AM
They will be adding feathers to epic level mobs in other regions like Barfog. That should be enough. These are group farmable (likely solo exploitable) also trash mobs in sidi. Also sidi raiders can /release to dungeon entrance and avoid losing time on the run over.

No mention of a healer at entrance

Uthred made the point that feathers are not supposed to be farmable...but for high level content. Likely this will drive prices higher or incentivize more raids. We shall see. I predict raids initially that will drop off as the population stabilizes - unless we have someone like draygon stepping up weekly to run them.

Likely what will happen is several dedicated groups that farm and keep supply limited like the diamond industry.

The solution is to either make feathers worthless or easily attainable - unless you are looking for #1 capitalist title.

I agree with you. Feathers should be farmable in the frontier zones by small groups. It brings players to the frontiers, creates RvR, and allows players to earn feathers without the need of a raid group or DF access.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 1:46 AM by florin

One more thing. Housing in alb had tears on sale for 3p/100 - this was the going rate. I undercut by 500g to sell about 20k feathers at 2.5p/100. This was several weeks of work in AC, keep raids and 2 sidi raids, and solo /
(Even in challenge mode) I don’t feel bad selling at this price and would have sold for more but I wanted to get my temp done. There were buyers happy to buy at 2.5p. The price is too high but I could have probably made the same amount or more in salvaging or selling rogs in the mean time. So is the point that they are “slow” to attain solo or in small groups to prevent hoarding and price gouging? Because it’s working the other way.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 4:58 PM by Armsmancer

I think a lot of you would be served a bit better by zooming out a bit and stop looking at this as 1 dimensional. There's plenty of things you can do other than farm feathers to get feathers. You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time. I don't get why this is lost on people. I stopped playing about a week ago and had about 100p left after leveling all crafts because I would sell my time for their labor. Lots of this came from taking orders and making myself available and watching the market.

No MP jambiyas on the market but 4 MP longswords? Obviously make some jambs. Lots of 99% plate except for chests? Make some and put them on the market. No good jewelry over 50 utility? Make a AC group and farm for the night. These all vary so much but I was able to successfully get rich, and I can buy feathers if I couldn't farm them with this kind of income. I'm guildless and not getting any favors done for me or being carried in Sidi. I can just buy the Sidi raid gear because I don't want to do that but they don't want to do LGM SC, so we trade our labor.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:31 PM by florin

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 4:58 PM
I think a lot of you would be served a bit better by zooming out a bit and stop looking at this as 1 dimensional. There's plenty of things you can do other than farm feathers to get feathers. You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time. I don't get why this is lost on people. I stopped playing about a week ago and had about 100p left after leveling all crafts because I would sell my time for their labor. Lots of this came from taking orders and making myself available and watching the market.

No MP jambiyas on the market but 4 MP longswords? Obviously make some jambs. Lots of 99% plate except for chests? Make some and put them on the market. No good jewelry over 50 utility? Make a AC group and farm for the night. These all vary so much but I was able to successfully get rich, and I can buy feathers if I couldn't farm them with this kind of income. I'm guildless and not getting any favors done for me or being carried in Sidi. I can just buy the Sidi raid gear because I don't want to do that but they don't want to do LGM SC, so we trade our labor.

Fair point but not everyone wishes to be Rydia and be LGM of all things crafting. Some detest crafting so they choose PVE. The ask is that we make all play-styles viable.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:44 PM by Armsmancer

florin wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:31 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 4:58 PM
I think a lot of you would be served a bit better by zooming out a bit and stop looking at this as 1 dimensional. There's plenty of things you can do other than farm feathers to get feathers. You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time. I don't get why this is lost on people. I stopped playing about a week ago and had about 100p left after leveling all crafts because I would sell my time for their labor. Lots of this came from taking orders and making myself available and watching the market.

No MP jambiyas on the market but 4 MP longswords? Obviously make some jambs. Lots of 99% plate except for chests? Make some and put them on the market. No good jewelry over 50 utility? Make a AC group and farm for the night. These all vary so much but I was able to successfully get rich, and I can buy feathers if I couldn't farm them with this kind of income. I'm guildless and not getting any favors done for me or being carried in Sidi. I can just buy the Sidi raid gear because I don't want to do that but they don't want to do LGM SC, so we trade our labor.

Fair point but not everyone wishes to be Rydia and be LGM of all things crafting. Some detest crafting so they choose PVE. The ask is that we make all play-styles viable.

I specifically said "You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time." to account for this type of response. I did not say be LGM all crafts did i? The point is you can sell your labor or time for their labor or time its how the economy works. If you don't want to do this its like not getting a job, it isn't going to impress the landlord or the grocer (analogy here is a crafter) if you have no money. This is very self evident I'm surprised i have to keep breaking it down Barney style here.

Edit : I had to sell cheap pots and go farm odd killtask items that were in demand, or simply sell ROGs to vendors, to get the $$ to get crafting up. People act like its just raid sidi, just rvr, or just farm pve for raw cash, which isn't the case in my examples above about what you should be looking for that is high in demand and doing that activity. I saw there were no LGM SC really on so I levelled that after alch, then I could accommodate both usually on the same job so I didn't have to put time into customer acquisition for just procs or charges, I am already SC'ing their gear...it takes investment of time then there is a big pay off. If you don't invest the time, don't expect the payoff. So much here is "but i want the plats but don't want to do what is necessary to obtain the plats" which is like a 7 year old whining. Put in the time for the reward, pretty simple.

Wed 3 Oct 2018 8:25 PM by florin

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:44 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:31 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 4:58 PM
I think a lot of you would be served a bit better by zooming out a bit and stop looking at this as 1 dimensional. There's plenty of things you can do other than farm feathers to get feathers. You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time. I don't get why this is lost on people. I stopped playing about a week ago and had about 100p left after leveling all crafts because I would sell my time for their labor. Lots of this came from taking orders and making myself available and watching the market.

No MP jambiyas on the market but 4 MP longswords? Obviously make some jambs. Lots of 99% plate except for chests? Make some and put them on the market. No good jewelry over 50 utility? Make a AC group and farm for the night. These all vary so much but I was able to successfully get rich, and I can buy feathers if I couldn't farm them with this kind of income. I'm guildless and not getting any favors done for me or being carried in Sidi. I can just buy the Sidi raid gear because I don't want to do that but they don't want to do LGM SC, so we trade our labor.

Fair point but not everyone wishes to be Rydia and be LGM of all things crafting. Some detest crafting so they choose PVE. The ask is that we make all play-styles viable.

I specifically said "You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time." to account for this type of response. I did not say be LGM all crafts did i? The point is you can sell your labor or time for their labor or time its how the economy works. If you don't want to do this its like not getting a job, it isn't going to impress the landlord or the grocer (analogy here is a crafter) if you have no money. This is very self evident I'm surprised i have to keep breaking it down Barney style here.

Edit : I had to sell cheap pots and go farm odd killtask items that were in demand, or simply sell ROGs to vendors, to get the $$ to get crafting up. People act like its just raid sidi, just rvr, or just farm pve for raw cash, which isn't the case in my examples above about what you should be looking for that is high in demand and doing that activity. I saw there were no LGM SC really on so I levelled that after alch, then I could accommodate both usually on the same job so I didn't have to put time into customer acquisition for just procs or charges, I am already SC'ing their gear...it takes investment of time then there is a big pay off. If you don't invest the time, don't expect the payoff. So much here is "but i want the plats but don't want to do what is necessary to obtain the plats" which is like a 7 year old whining. Put in the time for the reward, pretty simple.

Hey that's a nice straw man you built there. Way to argue what no one is saying. But do go on...zzzz

Wed 3 Oct 2018 11:08 PM by Armsmancer

florin wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 8:25 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:44 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:31 PM
Fair point but not everyone wishes to be Rydia and be LGM of all things crafting. Some detest crafting so they choose PVE. The ask is that we make all play-styles viable.

I specifically said "You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time." to account for this type of response. I did not say be LGM all crafts did i? The point is you can sell your labor or time for their labor or time its how the economy works. If you don't want to do this its like not getting a job, it isn't going to impress the landlord or the grocer (analogy here is a crafter) if you have no money. This is very self evident I'm surprised i have to keep breaking it down Barney style here.

Edit : I had to sell cheap pots and go farm odd killtask items that were in demand, or simply sell ROGs to vendors, to get the $$ to get crafting up. People act like its just raid sidi, just rvr, or just farm pve for raw cash, which isn't the case in my examples above about what you should be looking for that is high in demand and doing that activity. I saw there were no LGM SC really on so I levelled that after alch, then I could accommodate both usually on the same job so I didn't have to put time into customer acquisition for just procs or charges, I am already SC'ing their gear...it takes investment of time then there is a big pay off. If you don't invest the time, don't expect the payoff. So much here is "but i want the plats but don't want to do what is necessary to obtain the plats" which is like a 7 year old whining. Put in the time for the reward, pretty simple.

Hey that's a nice straw man you built there. Way to argue what no one is saying. But do go on...zzzz

I said "You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time"

then you said " not everyone wishes to be Rydia and be LGM of all things crafting"

This is textbook straw man, then you accuse me of using straw man. Can you maybe google the word and what that term means so you can get on the same level of debate as me this is like entry level stuff it's hurting my brain at this point pointing out obvious, textbook, objective facts like this only to be accused of it, you come off like some guy that doesn't understand a sport trying to narrate it using the wrong terms for everything, "that golfer just landed in the end zone!" type of stuff, you're just not even in the same ballpark here.

Also notice you just said the term and ran away from it, not like quoting the exact phrase that would make what I said a straw man. Again, level up a bit here learn from it, it will help you in the future. So far I'm still unopposed since nobody like you will put forth something of substance. If you quoted where I put a straw man in here you'd have won, but everyone reading this sees the lack of such a thing. Try harder or concede the point and move on.

Thu 4 Oct 2018 2:16 AM by florin

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 11:08 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 8:25 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:44 PM
I specifically said "You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time." to account for this type of response. I did not say be LGM all crafts did i? The point is you can sell your labor or time for their labor or time its how the economy works. If you don't want to do this its like not getting a job, it isn't going to impress the landlord or the grocer (analogy here is a crafter) if you have no money. This is very self evident I'm surprised i have to keep breaking it down Barney style here.

Edit : I had to sell cheap pots and go farm odd killtask items that were in demand, or simply sell ROGs to vendors, to get the $$ to get crafting up. People act like its just raid sidi, just rvr, or just farm pve for raw cash, which isn't the case in my examples above about what you should be looking for that is high in demand and doing that activity. I saw there were no LGM SC really on so I levelled that after alch, then I could accommodate both usually on the same job so I didn't have to put time into customer acquisition for just procs or charges, I am already SC'ing their gear...it takes investment of time then there is a big pay off. If you don't invest the time, don't expect the payoff. So much here is "but i want the plats but don't want to do what is necessary to obtain the plats" which is like a 7 year old whining. Put in the time for the reward, pretty simple.

Hey that's a nice straw man you built there. Way to argue what no one is saying. But do go on...zzzz

I said "You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time"

then you said " not everyone wishes to be Rydia and be LGM of all things crafting"

This is textbook straw man, then you accuse me of using straw man. Can you maybe google the word and what that term means so you can get on the same level of debate as me this is like entry level stuff it's hurting my brain at this point pointing out obvious, textbook, objective facts like this only to be accused of it, you come off like some guy that doesn't understand a sport trying to narrate it using the wrong terms for everything, "that golfer just landed in the end zone!" type of stuff, you're just not even in the same ballpark here.

Also notice you just said the term and ran away from it, not like quoting the exact phrase that would make what I said a straw man. Again, level up a bit here learn from it, it will help you in the future. So far I'm still unopposed since nobody like you will put forth something of substance. If you quoted where I put a straw man in here you'd have won, but everyone reading this sees the lack of such a thing. Try harder or concede the point and move on.

There is nothing to concede - your rambling took a discussion about feathers to the realm where no one gives a dingleberry about your crafting fetish. Try to stay on topic. Take your meds.

Thu 4 Oct 2018 4:56 AM by Armsmancer

florin wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 2:16 AM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 11:08 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 8:25 PM
Hey that's a nice straw man you built there. Way to argue what no one is saying. But do go on...zzzz

I said "You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time"

then you said " not everyone wishes to be Rydia and be LGM of all things crafting"

This is textbook straw man, then you accuse me of using straw man. Can you maybe google the word and what that term means so you can get on the same level of debate as me this is like entry level stuff it's hurting my brain at this point pointing out obvious, textbook, objective facts like this only to be accused of it, you come off like some guy that doesn't understand a sport trying to narrate it using the wrong terms for everything, "that golfer just landed in the end zone!" type of stuff, you're just not even in the same ballpark here.

Also notice you just said the term and ran away from it, not like quoting the exact phrase that would make what I said a straw man. Again, level up a bit here learn from it, it will help you in the future. So far I'm still unopposed since nobody like you will put forth something of substance. If you quoted where I put a straw man in here you'd have won, but everyone reading this sees the lack of such a thing. Try harder or concede the point and move on.

There is nothing to concede - your rambling took a discussion about feathers to the realm where no one gives a dingleberry about your crafting fetish. Try to stay on topic. Take your meds.

Translation : You challenged me to quote you on where your Straw Man Fallacy is, and I decided to not produce anything, just like everyone else around here that cannot compete with your points.

I mean, its all right here. Just hightlight it and paste it man, we're all waiting.

Thu 4 Oct 2018 9:24 AM by florin

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 4:56 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 2:16 AM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 11:08 PM
I said "You can be a LGM crafter and sell your time for their time"

then you said " not everyone wishes to be Rydia and be LGM of all things crafting"

This is textbook straw man, then you accuse me of using straw man. Can you maybe google the word and what that term means so you can get on the same level of debate as me this is like entry level stuff it's hurting my brain at this point pointing out obvious, textbook, objective facts like this only to be accused of it, you come off like some guy that doesn't understand a sport trying to narrate it using the wrong terms for everything, "that golfer just landed in the end zone!" type of stuff, you're just not even in the same ballpark here.

Also notice you just said the term and ran away from it, not like quoting the exact phrase that would make what I said a straw man. Again, level up a bit here learn from it, it will help you in the future. So far I'm still unopposed since nobody like you will put forth something of substance. If you quoted where I put a straw man in here you'd have won, but everyone reading this sees the lack of such a thing. Try harder or concede the point and move on.

There is nothing to concede - your rambling took a discussion about feathers to the realm where no one gives a dingleberry about your crafting fetish. Try to stay on topic. Take your meds.

Translation : You challenged me to quote you on where your Straw Man Fallacy is, and I decided to not produce anything, just like everyone else around here that cannot compete with your points.

I mean, its all right here. Just hightlight it and paste it man, we're all waiting.

Since you are not able comprehend..I will spell it out. Your whole crafting diatribe was a straw man. No one was arguing about crafting and making pots. This is thread is about feathers. Not feeding the troll anymore - good day.

Thu 4 Oct 2018 12:40 PM by Nino

Guard tasks should give feathers

Thu 4 Oct 2018 6:33 PM by Armsmancer

florin wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 9:24 AM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 4:56 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 2:16 AM
There is nothing to concede - your rambling took a discussion about feathers to the realm where no one gives a dingleberry about your crafting fetish. Try to stay on topic. Take your meds.

Translation : You challenged me to quote you on where your Straw Man Fallacy is, and I decided to not produce anything, just like everyone else around here that cannot compete with your points.

I mean, its all right here. Just hightlight it and paste it man, we're all waiting.

Since you are not able comprehend..I will spell it out. Your whole crafting diatribe was a straw man. No one was arguing about crafting and making pots. This is thread is about feathers. Not feeding the troll anymore - good day.

You don't know what a straw man is clearly can you google it please, jesus h christ.

I brought up crafting and other ways to make money because the posts before were about the prices of things. Those coin icons on your character sheet are things called money that you have to pay these things called prices with to obtain an item. Acting like you are, like the ways to make the money to pay prices, is not related, like I'm some nut for bringing up how to fill your coffers with money so you can buy anything, is hilarious and I am heartily laughing at this pathetic attempt, you get nothing, good day sir.