See title. Mobs can interupt moc when they are above level 50. A player charming an oj/red mob shouldn't be allowed to use that pet to interupt a player while in MOC. The whole interaction is dumb to begin with, but allowing a solo minstrel to win vs a caster using a 10 minute cooldown (MOC) simply because they have an OJ pet is beyond dumb.
Charmed pets shouldn't be able to interupt MOC
Started 8 Jul 2020
by
Bry
in
RvR
Wed 8 Jul 2020 8:09 PM
by
Lerox
Bry wrote: ↑Wed 8 Jul 2020 7:23 PMSee title. Mobs can interupt moc when they are above level 50. A player charming an oj/red mob shouldn't be allowed to use that pet to interupt a player while in MOC. The whole interaction is dumb to begin with, but allowing a solo minstrel to win vs a caster using a 10 minute cooldown (MOC) simply because they have an OJ pet is beyond dumb.
So why do you mention the minstrel only? Metalists can have an orange pet too and they can get MOC too :-o.
It got included 21 April 2019 and pets did not interrupt people in MOC before it.
And by the way it has a chance to interrupt during MOC and doesn't interrupt all the time.
There was another thread before not long ago and it is working as intended! https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/13702-50-pets-rupting-moc
Thu 9 Jul 2020 10:50 AM
by
jhaerik
Lerox wrote: ↑Wed 8 Jul 2020 8:09 PMBry wrote: ↑Wed 8 Jul 2020 7:23 PMSee title. Mobs can interupt moc when they are above level 50. A player charming an oj/red mob shouldn't be allowed to use that pet to interupt a player while in MOC. The whole interaction is dumb to begin with, but allowing a solo minstrel to win vs a caster using a 10 minute cooldown (MOC) simply because they have an OJ pet is beyond dumb.
So why do you mention the minstrel only? Metalists can have an orange pet too and they can get MOC too :-o.
It got included 21 April 2019 and pets did not interrupt people in MOC before it.
And by the way it has a chance to interrupt during MOC and doesn't interrupt all the time.
There was another thread before not long ago and it is working as intended! https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/13702-50-pets-rupting-moc
That was basic when they were trying to be an authentic DAoC classic server.
Since then they've changed so much (including adding NF and giving scouts perma root) what's one more thing matter?
Thu 9 Jul 2020 11:59 AM
by
gromet12
jhaerik wrote: ↑Thu 9 Jul 2020 10:50 AMLerox wrote: ↑Wed 8 Jul 2020 8:09 PMBry wrote: ↑Wed 8 Jul 2020 7:23 PMSee title. Mobs can interupt moc when they are above level 50. A player charming an oj/red mob shouldn't be allowed to use that pet to interupt a player while in MOC. The whole interaction is dumb to begin with, but allowing a solo minstrel to win vs a caster using a 10 minute cooldown (MOC) simply because they have an OJ pet is beyond dumb.
So why do you mention the minstrel only? Metalists can have an orange pet too and they can get MOC too :-o.
It got included 21 April 2019 and pets did not interrupt people in MOC before it.
And by the way it has a chance to interrupt during MOC and doesn't interrupt all the time.
There was another thread before not long ago and it is working as intended! https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/13702-50-pets-rupting-moc
That was basic when they were trying to be an authentic DAoC classic server.
Since then they've changed so much (including adding NF and giving scouts perma root) what's one more thing matter?
That is just recent...the list could go on. Some classes are on 1.65, alot of classes are not and playing with tools given/designed in a post TOA world, yet those basic classes not changed suffer here, since its "group" and here melee are just peel bots anyways, I guess it doesn't matter
Thu 9 Jul 2020 5:22 PM
by
Iuppiter
Bry wrote: ↑Wed 8 Jul 2020 7:23 PMSee title. Mobs can interupt moc when they are above level 50. A player charming an oj/red mob shouldn't be allowed to use that pet to interupt a player while in MOC. The whole interaction is dumb to begin with, but allowing a solo minstrel to win vs a caster using a 10 minute cooldown (MOC) simply because they have an OJ pet is beyond dumb.
Let's make MOC god-tier and make it unaffected by amnesia too (a baseline ability) - and also give the user stun/mezz immunity because it's crazy that a caster would have to consider when to use their 10 minute cooldowns at strategically appropriate times. On an unrelated note, why do we have so many devs? Bry seems to have a good (and clearly unbiased!) grasp of game mechanics on the whole with reasonable and well-thought out critiques, just let him make all the balancing decisions.
Fri 10 Jul 2020 1:23 AM
by
Forlornhope
Iuppiter wrote: ↑Thu 9 Jul 2020 5:22 PMBry wrote: ↑Wed 8 Jul 2020 7:23 PMSee title. Mobs can interupt moc when they are above level 50. A player charming an oj/red mob shouldn't be allowed to use that pet to interupt a player while in MOC. The whole interaction is dumb to begin with, but allowing a solo minstrel to win vs a caster using a 10 minute cooldown (MOC) simply because they have an OJ pet is beyond dumb.
Let's make MOC god-tier and make it unaffected by amnesia too (a baseline ability) - and also give the user stun/mezz immunity because it's crazy that a caster would have to consider when to use their 10 minute cooldowns at strategically appropriate times. On an unrelated note, why do we have so many devs? Bry seems to have a good (and clearly unbiased!) grasp of game mechanics on the whole with reasonable and well-thought out critiques, just let him make all the balancing decisions.
cc interrupting something like moc actually makes sense, as does amnesia since it effectively negates what you casted and not actually interrupting it.. But considering Moc is designed to be uninterruptible by things like melee/casted damage spells a pet interupting your moc makes zero sense. Stop talking out of you ass lol
Fri 10 Jul 2020 8:07 AM
by
Sepplord
Forlornhope wrote: ↑Fri 10 Jul 2020 1:23 AMcc interrupting something like moc actually makes sense, as does amnesia since it effectively negates what you casted and not actually interrupting it.. But considering Moc is designed to be uninterruptible by things like melee/casted damage spells a pet interupting your moc makes zero sense. Stop talking out of you ass lol
Arguing realism in a game like daoc...
Well but okay, here we go: Mastery of concentration , not Godlike Concentrator.
You mastered staying focussed for short periods of time, brushing of normal attacks from foes that are your own strength (aka level), and manage to finish your spellcast.
The bigger and more scary the enemy is, the more likely it is for you to lose your concentration, despite being a master, and are unable to properly finish your spell.
There, perfect sense. Problem solved, you should be satisfied now
Fri 10 Jul 2020 10:47 AM
by
Ele
Beeing on the recieving end of the interrupting pet quite frequently I don't regard high pets interrupting MoC as problematic.
Orange pets rarely produce an interrupt, red pets do so more often, but: If you can moc, you likely have a tool to get rid of a pet for cc'ing it as it is on its way to you. With charm cancel no longer breaking cc, the minst needs to release the pet to get it out of cc or needs to be free to demezz it. If you moc, you can prevent the demezz, and the cc break via getting in range to the pet, dd, recharm, sending it to you and the pet finally hitting you the first time takes a few seconds and opens up room for your casting.
I regard the pet as one point on my moc check list. If one of this things doesn't get a check, I might cosider not to moc.
1. Immunities?
2. Purge?
3. Range?
4. Position (Enemy Rupt (Minst Pet!), CC, Dps)?
Moc is very situational. Removing the rupt from higher pets from the list of things to consider before using it would certainly make it easier to decide wether to use it, but personally I don't think it is necessary. And taking into consideration that especially the minst pets got a lot easier to manage with the latest changes, another nerf doesn't sound reasonable to me.
Orange pets rarely produce an interrupt, red pets do so more often, but: If you can moc, you likely have a tool to get rid of a pet for cc'ing it as it is on its way to you. With charm cancel no longer breaking cc, the minst needs to release the pet to get it out of cc or needs to be free to demezz it. If you moc, you can prevent the demezz, and the cc break via getting in range to the pet, dd, recharm, sending it to you and the pet finally hitting you the first time takes a few seconds and opens up room for your casting.
I regard the pet as one point on my moc check list. If one of this things doesn't get a check, I might cosider not to moc.
1. Immunities?
2. Purge?
3. Range?
4. Position (Enemy Rupt (Minst Pet!), CC, Dps)?
Moc is very situational. Removing the rupt from higher pets from the list of things to consider before using it would certainly make it easier to decide wether to use it, but personally I don't think it is necessary. And taking into consideration that especially the minst pets got a lot easier to manage with the latest changes, another nerf doesn't sound reasonable to me.
Sat 11 Jul 2020 11:44 PM
by
Tyrlaan
Forlornhope wrote: ↑Fri 10 Jul 2020 1:23 AMcc interrupting something like moc actually makes sense, as does amnesia since it effectively negates what you casted and not actually interrupting it.. But considering Moc is designed to be uninterruptible by things like melee/casted damage spells a pet interupting your moc makes zero sense. Stop talking out of you ass lol
You make things up, MoC was never meant to make you uninterruptable, and it doesn´t. It has always just reduced interrupt chance by 100% (as stated in its description), not removed it. Interrupt chance is adjusted for attacker level, so it´s 100% for same level, less for lower con, more for higher con. Working as intended, as they say.
Sun 12 Jul 2020 5:05 AM
by
Forlornhope
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑Sat 11 Jul 2020 11:44 PMForlornhope wrote: ↑Fri 10 Jul 2020 1:23 AMcc interrupting something like moc actually makes sense, as does amnesia since it effectively negates what you casted and not actually interrupting it.. But considering Moc is designed to be uninterruptible by things like melee/casted damage spells a pet interupting your moc makes zero sense. Stop talking out of you ass lol
You make things up, MoC was never meant to make you uninterruptable, and it doesn´t. It has always just reduced interrupt chance by 100% (as stated in its description), not removed it. Interrupt chance is adjusted for attacker level, so it´s 100% for same level, less for lower con, more for higher con. Working as intended, as they say.
Go ahead and read what you wrote, reduce interrupt chance by 100%... That not only implies that it makes you uninterruptable it is the literal definition.
Sun 12 Jul 2020 5:26 AM
by
Forlornhope
Sepplord wrote: ↑Fri 10 Jul 2020 8:07 AMForlornhope wrote: ↑Fri 10 Jul 2020 1:23 AMcc interrupting something like moc actually makes sense, as does amnesia since it effectively negates what you casted and not actually interrupting it.. But considering Moc is designed to be uninterruptible by things like melee/casted damage spells a pet interupting your moc makes zero sense. Stop talking out of you ass lol
Arguing realism in a game like daoc...
Well but okay, here we go: Mastery of concentration , not Godlike Concentrator.
You mastered staying focussed for short periods of time, brushing of normal attacks from foes that are your own strength (aka level), and manage to finish your spellcast.
The bigger and more scary the enemy is, the more likely it is for you to lose your concentration, despite being a master, and are unable to properly finish your spell.
There, perfect sense. Problem solved, you should be satisfied now
I mean sure, or you can go by what the spell description says. Seems like a much easier and logical method to determine how something works.
Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:42 AM
by
Sepplord
Forlornhope wrote: ↑Sun 12 Jul 2020 5:26 AMI mean sure, or you can go by what the spell description says. Seems like a much easier and logical method to determine how something works.
You mean this description?
"Grants a 100% bonus to avoid being interrupted by any form of attack when casting a spell."
Or do you have a version in mind that says "makes you immune to interrupts"?
Because it works exactly like described...it's just that when your level is lower than your attackers level the chance to interuppt you is above 100%
Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:51 AM
by
Forlornhope
Sepplord wrote: ↑Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:42 AMForlornhope wrote: ↑Sun 12 Jul 2020 5:26 AMI mean sure, or you can go by what the spell description says. Seems like a much easier and logical method to determine how something works.
You mean this description?
"Grants a 100% bonus to avoid being interrupted by any form of attack when casting a spell."
Or do you have a version in mind that says "makes you immune to interrupts"?
Because it works exactly like described...it's just that when your level is lower than your attackers level the chance to interuppt you is above 100%
Yes, I mean the first description. If it was actually 100% chance to avoid being interrupted by any attack, either level should not matter or they should actually specify that in the spell description. I don't think level should matter, you may say I am taking things too literally but if something has a 100% chance to do something then it should regardless of other stipulations. Any attack from any source should not be able to interrupt someone who has used Moc.
Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:32 PM
by
gruenesschaf
gruenesschaf
Forlornhope wrote: ↑Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:51 AMYes, I mean the first description. If it was actually 100% chance to avoid being interrupted by any attack, either level should not matter or they should actually specify that in the spell description. I don't think level should matter, you may say I am taking things too literally but if something has a 100% chance to do something then it should regardless of other stipulations. Any attack from any source should not be able to interrupt someone who has used Moc.
You can basically take the tooltip literally for live daoc. You have a chance, based on attacker level, to be interrupted. On pend for green mobs it's somewhere around 10 - 30% for blue around 30 - 60 and for yellow around 70 - 90ish (you sometimes cast even while being attacked) and for players around 95 to 100% (every once in a while you could get a cast through but trying is usually not worth it due to the secondary rupt timer). For higher level mobs it's 100 - 1xx% which doesn't matter until things like moc come in that reduce the chance to be rupted, e. g. if you have a 150% chance to be rupted by a level 57 mob with moc active you're at 50%.
Early on here we made the change that only blue and green mob interrupts are chance based, yellow or higher as well as player attacks always interrupt and with the fix to preserve the minstrel / menta counter against moc higher level mobs have again a chance to interrupt through moc as wel.
Mon 13 Jul 2020 1:48 PM
by
ExcretusMaximus
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:32 PMto preserve the minstrel / menta counter against moc higher level mobs have again a chance to interrupt through moc as wel.
Meanwhile Mids are standing there with their blue maximum pet wondering why the other realms can get ones 10-17 levels higher.
"Balanced."
Mon 13 Jul 2020 9:47 PM
by
Forlornhope
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:32 PMForlornhope wrote: ↑Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:51 AMYes, I mean the first description. If it was actually 100% chance to avoid being interrupted by any attack, either level should not matter or they should actually specify that in the spell description. I don't think level should matter, you may say I am taking things too literally but if something has a 100% chance to do something then it should regardless of other stipulations. Any attack from any source should not be able to interrupt someone who has used Moc.
You can basically take the tooltip literally for live daoc. You have a chance, based on attacker level, to be interrupted. On pend for green mobs it's somewhere around 10 - 30% for blue around 30 - 60 and for yellow around 70 - 90ish (you sometimes cast even while being attacked) and for players around 95 to 100% (every once in a while you could get a cast through but trying is usually not worth it due to the secondary rupt timer). For higher level mobs it's 100 - 1xx% which doesn't matter until things like moc come in that reduce the chance to be rupted, e. g. if you have a 150% chance to be rupted by a level 57 mob with moc active you're at 50%.
Early on here we made the change that only blue and green mob interrupts are chance based, yellow or higher as well as player attacks always interrupt and with the fix to preserve the minstrel / menta counter against moc higher level mobs have again a chance to interrupt through moc as wel.
The explanation definitely makes sense, thank you. The wording on the spell description is definitely confusing though lol. I haven't played live in a very long time and really don't remember how it is, or was, there so maybe it's more of an accurate description for how it works there.
Wed 15 Jul 2020 4:30 PM
by
Bry
a PET should not be allowed to interupt a 10 minute cooldown that a large chunk of RA points has been spent on. its utterly stupid. something that is free for a minst (and ment) shouldn't completely cancel out 15-30 RA points and a 10 minute timer. Yes, it has a chance to interupt. but 1v1, a caster in moc vs a minstrel, the pet will interupt and then no casting for 3s. the amount of time needed to win is verry short vs a minstrel as a caster. its just dumb. the mechanic needs to be removed.
Thu 16 Jul 2020 6:21 AM
by
gotwqqd
While I agree about any pets should not bypass the RA (especially minstrel)Bry wrote: ↑Wed 15 Jul 2020 4:30 PMa PET should not be allowed to interupt a 10 minute cooldown that a large chunk of RA points has been spent on. its utterly stupid. something that is free for a minst (and ment) shouldn't completely cancel out 15-30 RA points and a 10 minute timer. Yes, it has a chance to interupt. but 1v1, a caster in moc vs a minstrel, the pet will interupt and then no casting for 3s. the amount of time needed to win is verry short vs a minstrel as a caster. its just dumb. the mechanic needs to be removed.
It’s hardly free.
Thu 16 Jul 2020 7:18 AM
by
Sepplord
The Free and X-RA points or specpoints arguments are always shitty imo...
The whole package needs to be evaluated, not what singular abilities "cost"
All RA's are somehow countered by "free" abilities.
All damage RAs are countered by heals / Hots and Con-buffs, all defensive RAs are countered by damaging-abilities
The whole package needs to be evaluated, not what singular abilities "cost"
All RA's are somehow countered by "free" abilities.
All damage RAs are countered by heals / Hots and Con-buffs, all defensive RAs are countered by damaging-abilities
Thu 23 Jul 2020 10:45 AM
by
Siouxsie
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:32 PMForlornhope wrote: ↑Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:51 AMYes, I mean the first description. If it was actually 100% chance to avoid being interrupted by any attack, either level should not matter or they should actually specify that in the spell description. I don't think level should matter, you may say I am taking things too literally but if something has a 100% chance to do something then it should regardless of other stipulations. Any attack from any source should not be able to interrupt someone who has used Moc.
You can basically take the tooltip literally for live daoc. You have a chance, based on attacker level, to be interrupted. On pend for green mobs it's somewhere around 10 - 30% for blue around 30 - 60 and for yellow around 70 - 90ish (you sometimes cast even while being attacked) and for players around 95 to 100% (every once in a while you could get a cast through but trying is usually not worth it due to the secondary rupt timer). For higher level mobs it's 100 - 1xx% which doesn't matter until things like moc come in that reduce the chance to be rupted, e. g. if you have a 150% chance to be rupted by a level 57 mob with moc active you're at 50%.
Early on here we made the change that only blue and green mob interrupts are chance based, yellow or higher as well as player attacks always interrupt and with the fix to preserve the minstrel / menta counter against moc higher level mobs have again a chance to interrupt through moc as wel.
This breaks a fundamental mechanic of DAOC. The fact that the change you made "early on" means that all kinds of wacky and weird nonsense that shouldn't happen occurs, such as a player who cons grey to someone can actually cast a stun or mezz and it lands every time! This just shouldn't happen. The resist rate should be 99%.
When I asked about this I was given a canned reply like: "We felt all players should have a chance in RVR".
Yes, but you broke a core, fundamental mechanic of DAOC to do this.
Fri 24 Jul 2020 9:42 AM
by
gruenesschaf
gruenesschaf
Siouxsie wrote: ↑Thu 23 Jul 2020 10:45 AMThis breaks a fundamental mechanic of DAOC. The fact that the change you made "early on" means that all kinds of wacky and weird nonsense that shouldn't happen occurs, such as a player who cons grey to someone can actually cast a stun or mezz and it lands every time! This just shouldn't happen. The resist rate should be 99%.
When I asked about this I was given a canned reply like: "We felt all players should have a chance in RVR".
Yes, but you broke a core, fundamental mechanic of DAOC to do this.
This just shows that you really have no idea what you're talking about. The resist rate in pvp is since quite some time before si only based on spell level vs enemy level, that means that low level characters can and do hit level 50 players, this is not a custom feature here. If you had ever played mordred or camlann you'd know the stupidity that was /level 20 air theurgists.
Fri 24 Jul 2020 3:40 PM
by
Taniquetil
Siouxsie wrote: This breaks a fundamental mechanic of DAOC...Nonsense
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑Fri 24 Jul 2020 9:42 AMThis just shows that you really have no idea what you're talking about. The resist rate in pvp is since quite some time before si only based on spell level vs enemy level, that means that low level characters can and do hit level 50 players, this is not a custom feature here. If you had ever played mordred or camlann you'd know the stupidity that was /level 20 air theurgists.
And heres Gruenes' response summarised as a gif for you Siouxsie:
Fri 31 Jul 2020 12:22 AM
by
stewbeedoo
So true!Siouxsie wrote: ↑Thu 23 Jul 2020 10:45 AMgruenesschaf wrote: ↑Mon 13 Jul 2020 12:32 PMForlornhope wrote: ↑Mon 13 Jul 2020 8:51 AMYes, I mean the first description. If it was actually 100% chance to avoid being interrupted by any attack, either level should not matter or they should actually specify that in the spell description. I don't think level should matter, you may say I am taking things too literally but if something has a 100% chance to do something then it should regardless of other stipulations. Any attack from any source should not be able to interrupt someone who has used Moc.
You can basically take the tooltip literally for live daoc. You have a chance, based on attacker level, to be interrupted. On pend for green mobs it's somewhere around 10 - 30% for blue around 30 - 60 and for yellow around 70 - 90ish (you sometimes cast even while being attacked) and for players around 95 to 100% (every once in a while you could get a cast through but trying is usually not worth it due to the secondary rupt timer). For higher level mobs it's 100 - 1xx% which doesn't matter until things like moc come in that reduce the chance to be rupted, e. g. if you have a 150% chance to be rupted by a level 57 mob with moc active you're at 50%.
Early on here we made the change that only blue and green mob interrupts are chance based, yellow or higher as well as player attacks always interrupt and with the fix to preserve the minstrel / menta counter against moc higher level mobs have again a chance to interrupt through moc as wel.
This breaks a fundamental mechanic of DAOC. The fact that the change you made "early on" means that all kinds of wacky and weird nonsense that shouldn't happen occurs, such as a player who cons grey to someone can actually cast a stun or mezz and it lands every time! This just shouldn't happen. The resist rate should be 99%.
When I asked about this I was given a canned reply like: "We felt all players should have a chance in RVR".
Yes, but you broke a core, fundamental mechanic of DAOC to do this.
Mon 3 Aug 2020 2:43 PM
by
jlxscholar
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑Fri 24 Jul 2020 9:42 AMSiouxsie wrote: ↑Thu 23 Jul 2020 10:45 AMThis breaks a fundamental mechanic of DAOC. The fact that the change you made "early on" means that all kinds of wacky and weird nonsense that shouldn't happen occurs, such as a player who cons grey to someone can actually cast a stun or mezz and it lands every time! This just shouldn't happen. The resist rate should be 99%.
When I asked about this I was given a canned reply like: "We felt all players should have a chance in RVR".
Yes, but you broke a core, fundamental mechanic of DAOC to do this.
This just shows that you really have no idea what you're talking about. The resist rate in pvp is since quite some time before si only based on spell level vs enemy level, that means that low level characters can and do hit level 50 players, this is not a custom feature here. If you had ever played mordred or camlann you'd know the stupidity that was /level 20 air theurgists.
HA. This brings back memories. Me and my buddy played on Andred and Mordred and regularly would jump high levels by PK Bridge with our low level theurgs lol.
For the sake of argument, its very true, low levels have always had a chance. Back in the day it wasn't uncommon for groups of level 25-30s to attempt a PK on lvl 50s. Especially casters.
Mon 17 Aug 2020 6:06 AM
by
Kurbsen
+1, red baurgest pet can rupt literally every single cast of moc. spending that many points for a RA to get wasted is kinda silly. I'm fine with some rupts but atleast throw a cooldown on when it can rupt again...pls xD
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