XP items are great but may not be without love

Walked into xp items in barrows and was like where is the spawn and then I saw a 50 necro at scaled camp.

Up on the bridge, another one.

Well that is it for me to get xp items. As soon as one spawns, necro kills it.

This is with 100 albs online.

How is that going to work on live?

Sun 23 Sep 2018 6:46 PM by Kralin

It will be worse on live but you'll have to deal with it. If you like populated servers, you have to take the good with the bad.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 7:35 PM by Bethoc

The necro plague caused me to quit Uthgard for several months until the population dropped. The sheer disrespect and uncaring attitude was what drove me off, butting into camps and kicking out full groups of lowbies for their own farming gain. I didn't even want to be in the same realm as those sorts of players. It was a thoroughly unpleasant daily display of selfish greed.

Here, at least, you can level rather quickly off even mediocre camps without zone bonuses if you're open to grouping. Upon launch, I wouldn't rely on the kill tasks at all, since the entire realm will be targeting those mobs. Necros or not, I would expect the majority of them to be unavailable. Perhaps you'll be able to sneak in a few during off hours.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 8:21 PM by Magesty

Maybe I’m alone in this, but I think XP items are way too strong. No reason to group with a character after 41 if you have a level 47-50 char that you can use to collect xp items. It’s silly that you can cheese out nine levels with a couple farm sessions.

You are right that the spawns are going to become inondated with necromancers and other farming classes. The amount of nerd rage generated around these camps is going to be astronomical. I think the solution is pretty clear: make it so experience items cannot be traded or sold. That way they are still available as a huge bonus for players while leveling, but don’t create a toxic farm environment or a cheesy way of avoiding actually leveling in the 40s.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 1:43 AM by Takii

Wait, they're tradable? I haven't actually used xp items but I expected them to not be tradable.

This is a pretty predictable result...

Mon 24 Sep 2018 4:29 PM by Anaethema

Magesty wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Sep 2018 8:21 PM
I think the solution is pretty clear: make it so experience items cannot be traded or sold. That way they are still available as a huge bonus for players while leveling, but don’t create a toxic farm environment or a cheesy way of avoiding actually leveling in the 40s.

That is an excellent idea! Let's hope the development team sees this thread and takes your suggestion to heart.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 4:33 PM by Magesty

Awesome. Inherent in that would be making it so they cannot be placed in the account vault as well, which might be a more difficult thing to achieve.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:34 PM by Turtle006

Making them not tradeable will make levelling stealth classes much much more difficult (horrifically so, stealthers do not get groups). I would agree with only tradeable on the same account.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:52 PM by colechar

Tradeable only on same account sounds like a good solution to me. I would like to hear what the Phoenix staff has to say on this.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 9:48 PM by Ganaka

Turtle006 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:34 PM
Making them not tradeable will make levelling stealth classes much much more difficult (horrifically so, stealthers do not get groups). I would agree with only tradeable on the same account.

There is a 5% bonus to xp for each class that is different from the other classes in the group. So adding an assassin and/or archer ain't the burden that it used to be. But, yeah...

Mon 24 Sep 2018 10:14 PM by Magesty

Turtle006 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:34 PM
Making them not tradeable will make levelling stealth classes much much more difficult (horrifically so, stealthers do not get groups). I would agree with only tradeable on the same account.

I leveled up a scout through the 40s using XP items and had no trouble farming almost all of the camps on that char. The only difficult ones I had to tap in my 50 for were oozes/flames in barrows and the teg rangers (they have bows and are uninterruptible). If you are smarter than me you might not even bother with those camps anyways as there are replacement options available. I also solo’d a number of the camps on my Merc without potions which I imagine isn’t that much easier than it would be on an infiltrator. If you invest some of the egregious amount of gold you get from selling ROGs while leveling to the 40s on potions you’ll be able to breeze through the camps.

I think if you keep XP items tradeable across an account you are just diluting the problem, which is 1) necros (or any other 50s in this case) jacking the camps from actual levelers and 2) players that have a 50 having little reason to actually play an alt they are trying to level through the 40s. Each player will only need to play a char through the 40s once before resorting to just power farming stacks of exp items to PL future characters from 41-50.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 11:24 PM by Armsmancer

Just add more killtasks for the same level ranges obviously I mean if theres 1 camp and 100 ppl want it just make more camps, SI has tons of unutilized, same level range mobs 1-50.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 3:06 AM by relvinian

once today I was at a camp soloing xp items

On one side was a cab/cleric duo and on other necro.

I think there should be a limit on number of xp items which drop per hour rather than a no trade nerf.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:08 AM by Kaziera

Why not make it a ten times per char drop. There are otds, so why not 10tds. Which is not sellable to Merchants. So evrybody can do with them what he wants but the farm madness stops.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:45 PM by Turtle006

I have changed my mind, I am in the no trade camp now. Stealth classes can farm them (relatively) easily solo, and having them account tradeable means no one will level from 40-50 more than once.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:47 PM by Armsmancer

Nobody responds or addresses my suggestion to make everyone happy and just add killtask items to tons of SI mobs, this literally solves this problem.

Just crickets and repeating the problem. I just solved it.

Reading, top to bottom, left to right.

Awaiting to hear more stories instead though about how bad day 1 will be and we should rework the whole mechanic/max it/not tradeable/ all this stuff when you can just add more killtasks in other zones....whats easier, I really wonder.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:48 PM by Armsmancer

Turtle006 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:45 PM
I have changed my mind, I am in the no trade camp now. Stealth classes can farm them (relatively) easily solo, and having them account tradeable means no one will level from 40-50 more than once.

Yeah there's just nobody out there 40-50 right now looking for groups right

do people even think before they post

Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:52 PM by Turtle006

I did think actually, that's why I changed my mind. I did think when I saw multiple necros at more than one camp yesterday while farming XP items, with 60 people online, how is it going to be with larger population? This isn't the first time, either. There may be a few people in /LFG now, but IMO most people are not levelling by killing mobs. Maybe it will be better when population is higher, but erring on the cautious side for now makes sense to me.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 6:37 PM by Kaziera

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:47 PM
Nobody responds or addresses my suggestion to make everyone happy and just add killtask items to tons of SI mobs, this literally solves this problem.

Just crickets and repeating the problem. I just solved it.

Reading, top to bottom, left to right.

Awaiting to hear more stories instead though about how bad day 1 will be and we should rework the whole mechanic/max it/not tradeable/ all this stuff when you can just add more killtasks in other zones....whats easier, I really wonder.

tldr

Tue 25 Sep 2018 6:58 PM by Magesty

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:47 PM
Nobody responds or addresses my suggestion to make everyone happy and just add killtask items to tons of SI mobs, this literally solves this problem.

Just crickets and repeating the problem. I just solved it.

Reading, top to bottom, left to right.

Awaiting to hear more stories instead though about how bad day 1 will be and we should rework the whole mechanic/max it/not tradeable/ all this stuff when you can just add more killtasks in other zones....whats easier, I really wonder.

This problem with XP items in their current state is two-fold.

Your inelegant solution fails to address one of the major issues which is the fact that you can simply avoid the 40s by transferring XP items to an alt. Sure, some people might still be leveling in groups. They could either not have a 50 yet or not yet know about how powerful XP items are. It is a unique feature on this server and there will be some delay in the population taking full advantage of it. XP items are clearly the most efficient way to get through these levels and it isn't even close-- especially when you have a templated class that is effective in PvE at your disposal.

If this is what the devs intended so be it, but I have a feeling it is not. Personally I don't like the mechanic and I think it cheapens the overall feel of the server (much like the ridiculous skin options), but I'm sure as hell going to abuse it if it's available to be abused.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 7:18 PM by Ganaka

Add me to the no trade camp.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 10:34 PM by Armsmancer

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Sep 2018 6:58 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:47 PM
Nobody responds or addresses my suggestion to make everyone happy and just add killtask items to tons of SI mobs, this literally solves this problem.

Just crickets and repeating the problem. I just solved it.

Reading, top to bottom, left to right.

Awaiting to hear more stories instead though about how bad day 1 will be and we should rework the whole mechanic/max it/not tradeable/ all this stuff when you can just add more killtasks in other zones....whats easier, I really wonder.

This problem with XP items in their current state is two-fold.

Your inelegant solution fails to address one of the major issues which is the fact that you can simply avoid the 40s by transferring XP items to an alt. Sure, some people might still be leveling in groups. They could either not have a 50 yet or not yet know about how powerful XP items are. It is a unique feature on this server and there will be some delay in the population taking full advantage of it. XP items are clearly the most efficient way to get through these levels and it isn't even close-- especially when you have a templated class that is effective in PvE at your disposal.

If this is what the devs intended so be it, but I have a feeling it is not. Personally I don't like the mechanic and I think it cheapens the overall feel of the server (much like the ridiculous skin options), but I'm sure as hell going to abuse it if it's available to be abused.

My solution deals with the constant complaint about #s of people at #s of camps available for the highly sought after items. This spreads it out so much its no longer an issue. If some guy walks up to a camp and sees 2 necros he can i guess either /wrists or i don't know go do something else maybe? The tone is like its some server smashing thing some guy is inconvenienced.

The other issue stated is them not being bind on pickup. This isn't like...default bad. You and others are only taking into consideration that poor poor player so broke so bad at the game to only know one way to level up, and HE can't get some items because there's either lots of other players or lv 50s doing it for their alts. So what, that is good for them. Again, there is not a victim here. I go to alb AC sometimes and my fav camp is taken. Should I find a way to never let that ever happen, i mean do we want population or not? Also, the guy farming plats is gonna sell it to some guy who turns it in and that seller now has plats for SC for his main class. Nobody here is a victim any more than when I walk up to my fav spots and its taken, I move on, there's more zones in the game with plenty of mobs.

Some of us got to 50 before task items were even really introduced here. People like are you acting like this doesn't happen, or if it does, somehow there is a victim because it took group A longer because they didn't take advantage of task items. So what. Do what you want, and there are going to people who play at different times who get screwed and others that don't.

It has been like that for 17 years but I guess we should talk about it like its some new phenomena.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 10:43 PM by Armsmancer

Plus lets be real, which of these do you think will group and which will killtask instead :

enh cleric
fire wiz
servant necro
sight necro
staff friar
paladin
polearmsman
rejuv cleric
rejuv friar

The answer is different for each of these above on if its better to just group to 50 or go do task items. I don't bother on my cleric to go try and kill yel-OJ mobs at my task level. My Firewiz however burns them up fast and I got my 10 items.

If you don't know where I'm going with this , it is because your examples/points (multiple ppl here) apply to some of the above classes and not the others, so address that instead of some absolute form of "tasks are bad/good" and not understand there's people that skip them entirely because of their class.

That means you don't get to include them in the calculation and use them as victims we need to all set forth out to fix. Nothing is broken, if you suck at killing things possibly, just maybe, something called a Kill Task isn't what you should be putting your time into.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 12:19 AM by Magesty

I think you are focusing too much on certain players being seen as victims in this scenario. The core of the issue with XP items in their current state is that they run directly against the devs' stated goal of encouraging social play. The problem isn't necessarily who is going to be excluded specifically, but rather that they are going to create both a toxic environment with regards to players directly competing for camps and an asocial environment for the vast majority of levers post 41. Perhaps you are content languishing in this kind of system, but I can assure you it is not a good method for encouraging a healthy player base. Whether you like it or not casuals are the lifeblood of a server, and keeping them interested is of paramount importance. They are kept interested by having an engaging and social experience while playing. I'm sure you or I can get a character to 50 fairly quickly, have access to all crafters, and easily farm the camps we need. Unfortunately we really aren't all that important to the server's longevity, and I don't know about you, but I want to play on a server with a shit ton of contented zerglings to kill.

I got to 47ish on my Merc before I turned in a stack of Elyll Wine and realized the extent of Phoenix's buff to XP items. After seeing that I received around 5 bubs for a single XP item stack I had no desire to group ever again. Why would I? It is stupidly inefficient and requires me to rely on random players' whims. Obviously I could have just chosen to group for the rest of the time. Hell, I could choose to level up killing only blues and still make it to 50 eventually. The point is that it is wildly ineffective to do anything but farm XP items, and, as we all know, humans are going to tend to choose the easiest path ninety nine times out of one hundred.

As for your list-- I'm going to do something I've noticed you love to do and point out that the manner in which you have presented that argument is a clear case of selection bias. You have included perhaps the only three specs that wouldn't be better suited farming XP items in rejuv cleric, enhancement cleric and rejuv friar. The last of which would likely still have enough staff and enhance for it to be more efficient.

The other very large hole in that argument is that those three specs require any number of the others to actually form a coherent group. Thus they are likely to be doubly harmed by the XP item system as it currently stands. Not only can they not farm the camps efficiently themselves, but the classes they need to group with to level up are far less likely to actually be willing to group since they can.

Again, this isn't about a certain kind of player that you don't see as deserving of respect being victimized, but rather the overarching effect these items have on the post-40 environment as a whole.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 12:39 AM by Geek

Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 12:19 AM
Whether you like it or not casuals are the lifeblood of a server, and keeping them interested is of paramount importance. They are kept interested by having an engaging and social experience while playing.

I'm a casual and I don't want the social experience. I play stealthers. To indirectly quote Armsmancer, it seems you're really generalizing and lumping casuals into one group. We're all different.

I for one see no problem with trading XP items for social outcasts, loners, social butterflies or Relvinian.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 12:45 AM by Ganaka

My prediction: Imagine 1 year after the server goes live... If XP items are trade-able between players, then new players might find it hard to find groups or fit in to the server. Most established players would simply farm, or buy, the XP items and not bother grouping or helping new players. New players are less likely to stick around if they have to slog it alone to level 50.

I could be wrong. I'm wrong a lot.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 12:50 AM by Armsmancer

Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 12:19 AM
I think you are focusing too much on certain players being seen as victims in this scenario. The core of the issue with XP items in their current state is that they run directly against the devs' stated goal of encouraging social play. The problem isn't necessarily who is going to be excluded specifically, but rather that they are going to create both a toxic environment with regards to players directly competing for camps and an asocial environment for the vast majority of levers post 41. Perhaps you are content languishing in this kind of system, but I can assure you it is not a good method for encouraging a healthy player base. Whether you like it or not casuals are the lifeblood of a server, and keeping them interested is of paramount importance. They are kept interested by having an engaging and social experience while playing. I'm sure you or I can get a character to 50 fairly quickly, have access to all crafters, and easily farm the camps we need. Unfortunately we really aren't all that important to the server's longevity, and I don't know about you, but I want to play on a server with a shit ton of contented zerglings to kill.

I got to 47ish on my Merc before I turned in a stack of Elyll Wine and realized the extent of Phoenix's buff to XP items. After seeing that I received around 5 bubs for a single XP item stack I had no desire to group ever again. Why would I? It is stupidly inefficient and requires me to rely on random players' whims. Obviously I could have just chosen to group for the rest of the time. Hell, I could choose to level up killing only blues and still make it to 50 eventually. The point is that it is wildly ineffective to do anything but farm XP items, and, as we all know, humans are going to tend to choose the easiest path ninety nine times out of one hundred.

As for your list-- I'm going to do something I've noticed you love to do and point out that the manner in which you have presented that argument is a clear case of selection bias. You have included perhaps the only three specs that wouldn't be better suited farming XP items in rejuv cleric, enhancement cleric and rejuv friar. The last of which would likely still have enough staff and enhance for it to be more efficient.

The other very large hole in that argument is that those three specs require any number of the others to actually form a coherent group. Thus they are likely to be doubly harmed by the XP item system as it currently stands. Not only can they not farm the camps efficiently themselves, but the classes they need to group with to level up are far less likely to actually be willing to group since they can.

Again, this isn't about a certain kind of player that you don't see as deserving of respect being victimized, but rather the overarching effect these items have on the post-40 environment as a whole.

"I think you are focusing too much on certain players being seen as victims in this scenario. The core of the issue with XP items in their current state is that they run directly against the devs' stated goal of encouraging social play."

-this can be used to justify just about anything really. The social play is about the buffbot argument mainly, not things like killtask items or just about everything else. This doesn't move the game piece any further for your point because its too broad to use as a justification. I could use a similar out of context quote to justify stuff with this poor use of quoting them, it doesn't get you from asking if something is a problem/wrong to YES it is a problem/wrong. Besides, who gets to decide what is social? What if a 5 man group is happy and doesn't want to add more people? There is nothing wrong with it.

"but rather that they are going to create both a toxic environment with regards to players directly competing for camps"
-people fighting for camps is some new thing in 2018? This would exist if there were no killtask items and everyone 46-50 was in lyonesse wanting that sweet tree spot. The addition or removal of killtask items does not create or even exacerbate this problem, it lowers it because it spreads it out. I don't go back to do lv 20 task items when I'm lv 30, I've moved on. Unlike static camps, killtasks spread things out.

"I can assure you it is not a good method for encouraging a healthy player base"
-citation needed
I mean really I've made friends and formed groups at killtask items so your assumption cannot be stated so confidently and absolutely. Everyone just sees the negative and is not even bothering mentioning all the good things this system brings. It wasn't even in the game until a bit recently so we have something to compare it to, and it was worse without it, not better. Also, some classes aren't geared to take on yel-oj mobs solo anyway so this has even less weight to it, some aren't even bothering with them because of their class and spec.

"They are kept interested by having an engaging and social experience while playing"
-another fiat. There's tons of reasons players stay and leave. Your sentence doesn't cover them and all and I'm not appealing to some fringe outlier. I log in for tons of reasons and I log out for others. I take breaks and play other games, I have friends wanting me to join them playing something else. Everyone has this opportunity cost and it cannot be summed up the way you want it to be to use it as some justification to "therefore" some other part of your arguments. Again what you said moves no game piece anywhere to a point, you just told us why some people play and stay. Great stuff, but you left out literally everything else ever why people choose to play a game. What about when nostalgia wears off? When the new assassins creed comes out people were waiting for, tons of factors. Stop defaulting to "they would be here playing if it weren't for this one/two issues".

"i don't know about you, but I want to play on a server with a shit ton of contented zerglings to kill."
-sometimes I log in just to craft for people and leave, or run a AC group to get more 50s even though I don't need the feathers. I barely pvp. We're different gamers, which is why I have to constantly point out to people not everyone is like everyone and using those types of assumptions in some large sweeping change is fallacious and like, pls stop speaking for me ty.

"I got to 47ish on my Merc before I turned in a stack of Elyll Wine and realized the extent of Phoenix's buff to XP items. After seeing that I received around 5 bubs for a single XP item stack I had no desire to group ever again. Why would I?"

-tons of reasons. maybe you're a stay at home dad/employee and cannot commit to a group with frequent afks. Maybe it's faster but boring grind and you'd rather level 20% slower but have a social in game life. Neither choice is wrong, please stop trying to make the one you prefer everyone else's only option.

"As for your list-- I'm going to do something I've noticed you love to do and point out that the manner in which you have presented that argument is a clear case of selection bias"
-I was frustrated even coming up with the list thinking of whatever really, the point isn't what i put there, just that it was clear a rejuv cleric is going to have 0% interest in following the killtask list like some enchanter with speed. The point I guess missed is there is a chunk of the population not even bothering with them. All my dps classes with speed did them, others I didn't bother with it was faster because my class like healer was always in LFG being asked for my class so easy choice.

I'll sum up the rest as

Who cares?

Like lv 40-50 is some huge hill to go fight on. With killtasks or groups you can do it in 1-5 days tops.

You've lost your perspective, you keep being relative to what phoenix is to what some proposal is, when you should compare it to your other alternatives. Go to Uthgard and 40-50 then come here and you will not complain. It isn't perfect but its WORLDS away and you guys are again pointing to molehills and yelling about mountains. MOUNTAINS GANDALF

sorry for the wall but hey what are you gonna do

Wed 26 Sep 2018 12:53 AM by Armsmancer

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 12:45 AM
My prediction: Imagine 1 year after the server goes live... If XP items are trade-able between players, then new players might find it hard to find groups or fit in to the server. Most established players would simply farm, or buy, the XP items and not bother grouping or helping new players. New players are less likely to stick around if they have to slog it alone to level 50.

I could be wrong. I'm wrong a lot.

I can go solo farm basilisk in pennine for 5 stacks of items I can sell from 1-2p each stack.

I can also SC in this time and make about 20-50p

The basilisks are safe from my wrath because you aren't even in the same ballpark range. There isn't going to be some huge army camping barrows for wight turds or whatever. All this sandwich board end of the world , "nobody will ever level again!!!!" talk is a joke. This server is super fast even before killtasks just with eggs. Please.

And I have to point this out I'm sure for some but he said after 1 year. After 1 year I think there's time to get leg SC.

Again, some of you ♪don't know whacha got....til it's goooooooone ♪

If Phoenix dropped unexpectedly and you had to play Uth/Genesis for 2 weeks, then Phoenix came back, half of all this whining would be rightly smacked down. You need to keep what is relative to your other alternatives and you'll be so much happier.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 1:37 AM by Magesty

For someone who [talks] about anecdotal arguments and logical fallacies you sure don't shy away from using them.

This is not a hill I'm willing to die on, nor it is something I'm willing to get in an over-extended, nit picky debate about. Especially one where the other person generally misrepresents and muddies my arguments. I'm assuming this is due to a language barrier and not a tactic. I would have to spend more time correcting what you are saying I am saying than I would actually responding to your original thoughts.

XP items as they stand discourage social play. XP items as they stand encourage max level players to farm them and generally discourage level 41+ players from grouping. I don't see how this is debatable.

Generally speaking (yes, it is OK to generalize when discussing subjects like this) a social, engaging leveling environment from level forty to fifty is going to be a net positive when it comes to retaining a server's population. Fringe cases do not a solid argument make.

Obviously these levels are not as important as end game RvR, but there is no reason to leave a part of the game to fester.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 5:06 AM by Armsmancer

Magesty wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 1:37 AM
For someone who whines endlessly about anecdotal arguments and logical fallacies you sure don't shy away from using them.

This is not a hill I'm willing to die on, nor it is something I'm willing to get in an over-extended, nit picky debate about. Especially one where the other person generally misrepresents and muddies my arguments. I'm assuming this is due to a language barrier and not a tactic. I would have to spend more time correcting what you are saying I am saying than I would actually responding to your original thoughts.

XP items as they stand discourage social play. XP items as they stand encourage max level players to farm them and generally discourage level 41+ players from grouping. I don't see how this is debatable.

Generally speaking (yes, it is OK to generalize when discussing subjects like this) a social, engaging leveling environment from level forty to fifty is going to be a net positive when it comes to retaining a server's population. Fringe cases do not a solid argument make.

Obviously these levels are not as important as end game RvR, but there is no reason to leave a part of the game to fester.

Please highlight what i said and tie it to a logical fallacy

also if someone does a textbook logical fallacy, and I point it out, that is not whining. [removed] "if you point out a guy is straw manning your argument and you lay it out and it is objectively correct, you're whiiiiining!" Please [love]. What's next, if I call the sky blue I'm somehow wrong on some level with you. This is objective, you cannot debate a 1 being a 1. You aren't saying I'm wrong, you're saying I'm right actually, but I just shouldn't point it out? [removed].

Wed 26 Sep 2018 3:40 PM by Armsmancer

edit : not really worth this any more people are calling in admins to punish me to help their arguments not sure if it was you but whatever not a fair playing field to debate with that going on, snowflakes win, feels before reals ya'll.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 4:20 PM by rubaduck

If there is one thing we learned from Beta in regards of XP items, is that it is in itself an economy. I have been talking about economy for a long time, but this is one of the things that I don't want to be a part of it.

I agree that XP items shouldn't be tradeable. Well at least not with other players, but keep them like feathers only tradeable with your own characters or if possible with your group members within a given time period after it has been obtained. If it is not, it will saturate the marked and the strongest farmers (looking at necros and animists) will more or less dominate it making sure everyone gets one of those characters as soon as possible and not only saturate the marked but also saturate the kill sites. Even though kill task items has always been tradeable, it is not healthy for the server as it has been, as it is now and how it will be as at launch.

Another argument for group trading within a period of time is that it will be more beneficial to form groups to do them as well.

One can argue that this is a good thing for the marked, because goods are changing hands for in game currency, but it is on the expense of the progress for the players on the server. This should be reserved for items that has a value for the player, like RoG's, named items and crafted items and not for "saving time". This will most surely sour the whole community, and make people very annoyed.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 11:25 PM by Chimaera

This thread got off-topic with too many personal insults. I cleaned it up, but for the future, please do this censoring yourself. As a reminder, use respectful language towards others, even when you disagree.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 1:45 AM by Geek

Chimaera wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 11:25 PM
This thread got off-topic with too many personal insults. I cleaned it up, but for the future, please do this censoring yourself. As a reminder, use respectful language towards others, even when you disagree.

I think moderation is great, especially when you come in and clean up the place. What isn't great is when a mod comes in and doesn't even attempt to answer the question of the OP. I've seen this twice now, and it's probably happened multiple times. If a mod is going to come into a thread and do housework, why not at least attempt to answer the OP about the subject to keep these kind of threads from derailing into a boxing match between a few individuals? Even if Chimaera doesn't have the answer, at least direct it to a mod who does know and can shed some insight, like Uthred perhaps.

If this can be done earlier in threads, they won't last so long and turn into poop.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 3:42 PM by Chimaera

Geek,
Not every thread will get a response from the team. This is especially true as we focus on the next phases of the project, i50, followed by release.

While not every thread will be answered, the chance is increased when it's placed on the correct forum with a clear title and body.

I have moved this topic to the Ask the Team forum, and forwarded the question to a staff member that may be able to answer it.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 5:31 PM by Waygone

I think tradable XP items are fine as is. I do think it might need to be monitored upon release. I like the risk vs. reward for the frontier items. Anything that brings more people out there is a bonus imo.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 10:32 PM by Ganaka

There is no risk and farming gold in PVE areas and buying XP items.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 11:07 PM by Armsmancer

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 10:32 PM
There is no risk and farming gold in PVE areas and buying XP items.

Please quote where it is stated that "risk" is required for xp item acquisition.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 11:20 PM by Armsmancer

Supply demand fixes this anyway I don't know what you are complaining about. I put a bunch up on my merchant and they took awhile to sell at 2p each 10 stack.

What is wrong with me trading my pve class's ability to farm them after a few hours to someone who has cash from their crafting and has like a cleric and would rather just make the trade. This is free trade, nobody should get between it, it solves itself. If I charge too much it will sit forever, if I charge too little they all go away so fast I can't keep up and am actually selling my labor for less than I could be selling it for, we hit equilibrium and it works.

There is nothing wrong with the above transaction. This is how all things work in this game selling goods/time. I sell my time on SC and there's no "risk" in me doing that, should I stop being able to advance in the game because it isn't risky?

Fri 28 Sep 2018 7:49 PM by Ganaka

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 11:07 PM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 10:32 PM
There is no risk and farming gold in PVE areas and buying XP items.

Please quote where it is stated that "risk" is required for xp item acquisition.

I’m not arguing with aggressive person that always argues in extremes. There is more than one valid opinion.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 11:20 PM by relvinian

Just ignore people that always want to fight.

Helps a ton.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 11:59 PM by Takii

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 11:20 PM
There is nothing wrong with the above transaction. This is how all things work in this game selling goods/time. I sell my time on SC and there's no "risk" in me doing that, should I stop being able to advance in the game because it isn't risky?

The problem isn't that you're selling your XP items. If there was an unlimited supply of mobs that drop these XP items and the only factor was time invested, we wouldn't be talking about this.

The problem is the source of these XP items is very easily monopolized by even a single person of the right class in the right camp.

Sat 29 Sep 2018 4:26 AM by rubaduck

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 11:20 PM
Supply demand fixes this anyway I don't know what you are complaining about. I put a bunch up on my merchant and they took awhile to sell at 2p each 10 stack.

What is wrong with me trading my pve class's ability to farm them after a few hours to someone who has cash from their crafting and has like a cleric and would rather just make the trade. This is free trade, nobody should get between it, it solves itself. If I charge too much it will sit forever, if I charge too little they all go away so fast I can't keep up and am actually selling my labor for less than I could be selling it for, we hit equilibrium and it works.

There is nothing wrong with the above transaction. This is how all things work in this game selling goods/time. I sell my time on SC and there's no "risk" in me doing that, should I stop being able to advance in the game because it isn't risky?

I am not going to tell you that that is a greedy price because you set your own prices and it is supply and demand (but saying so I have indirectly said it to you), but time and effort equals money. To put it quite delecately: If I use your price on your own goods, so 10 x ItemY takes (Which I know takes 30 minutes to farm out of shear experience with farming xp items for my own toons), and you make 2p selling them on the marked, you have an hourly income of 4p if you sell 2 stacks.

If you look at a different way to earn money, say spellcrafting because I make some money of that now. I charge 1p for 6 items, or 250 gold for individual parts. Most people spellcraft 6 pieces with me which means 1p per trade usually. If I get 2 customers within an hour, I make 2p. I can't work faster then what the system allows me, so the only thing I can is to increase my effectivity, which can push me to 3 p if my mind is in mint condition but this has never happened and is for me only on a theoretical level.

Compare the two: The time is equal, 1 hour spent making cash. The effort however. Chaining mobs takes no effort, you can watch a movie on a second screen and just be on autopilot. If you use heavy farm classes like the Necro or an Animist you're even more efficienct and the value is a lot more, but 2 stacks of 10 x XPItemY and you sell them for 2p a stack. Thats it, that is all the effort you put in to it. The time it takes to sell them is not even considered because that is absolutely no effort at all. While on spellcrafting, you need to make the correct choices, make a mistake and you more or less are doomed to either a)make a new item for the customer to spellcraft if you have the skill high enough and lose material costs, or b) purchase a whole new item from the market and both will result in your own loss of money. That means you need to do it correct, every time, for every customer. Spellcrafting 6 pieces takes about 20-30 minutes, so if you are efficient you're able to make at most 3 p (using my own prices for SC). But that's not all, spellcrafting requires you to put money IN to get money OUT too, something every crafter has to do to sell their goods, yet still I make only half the money for all my effort then your autopilot farming but I had to put double effort in to it because I had to level my character and level my crafting.

If you add pieces together here you must see that there is an imbalance. Both of the things I've used in these example are high-in-demand goods, at nearly any given time in the game. One takes absolutely no other effort but to level up a character, while the other needs to invest heavily on both gold and time to be able to make money of it. XP items should not be a part of the economy, it should at best be able to trade with your own characters but not other players for money.

Sat 29 Sep 2018 3:20 PM by Armsmancer

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Sep 2018 7:49 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 11:07 PM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 10:32 PM
There is no risk and farming gold in PVE areas and buying XP items.

Please quote where it is stated that "risk" is required for xp item acquisition.

I’m not arguing with aggressive person that always argues in extremes. There is more than one valid opinion.

Translation : you challenged me and I can't back up my statement so instead I'm going to call you a mean-head and act like continuing on as if I refuted you is logical in some universe

Sat 29 Sep 2018 3:27 PM by Armsmancer

Takii wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Sep 2018 11:59 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 11:20 PM
There is nothing wrong with the above transaction. This is how all things work in this game selling goods/time. I sell my time on SC and there's no "risk" in me doing that, should I stop being able to advance in the game because it isn't risky?

The problem isn't that you're selling your XP items. If there was an unlimited supply of mobs that drop these XP items and the only factor was time invested, we wouldn't be talking about this.

The problem is the source of these XP items is very easily monopolized by even a single person of the right class in the right camp.

I think mobs infinitely respawn unless the server is down or did they make like the drakes in pennine permadeath?

I know you want to say you mean that there isn't enough for everyone on the server that wants one to go get them at some perfect, uninterrupted rate, but I don't know if you've , well I dunno, driven around in traffic, you got to share space with people.

Admins/Gms/Devs are under no obligation to remove the "traffic". This is normal and besides, nobody is responding to my point above about how some cleric has no access to these killtask items solo unless they wait til the mobs are blue, and even then, some solid group in DF or some farm spot is gonna be better. Nobody wants to talk about this though, they want some image of everyone logging in and going to some bandit camp nearby camped by thousands of albions and some poor friar is crying in the corner because he can't get some. Like there's no other way to level up. Some of us got to 50 without these even in the game, this is supplementing it, stop your whining (more for all the others) this is a bonus and the sky is falling if its left in as it is for some reason nobody can tell me other than some people will have them and some won't ........ just like everything else, ever.

Sat 29 Sep 2018 3:36 PM by Armsmancer

Relv keeps trying to bait me or something, if you want his cowardice spread to you go ahead take his advice and back down from a debate.

It goes :

Point > Counter Point > Rebuttals > etc

not :

Point > Counter Point > Ignore Counterpoint > call them mean-heads for pointing out flaws > tell all others don't listen to the person and their valid arguments, dismiss them for other reasons, like appealing to tone/feelings

Ostriches I tell ya, ostriches

edit : lastly to drive it home, xp items are a BONUS, not the default, the default is standard xp groups in fz/df/si/etc. The staff can't add something nice like this to make it even better without people whining. Maybe they should completely remove them so nobody can win since not everyone can huh? Maybe we should all get a trophy too.

Sun 30 Sep 2018 1:14 AM by rubaduck

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Sep 2018 3:36 PM
edit : lastly to drive it home, xp items are a BONUS, not the default, the default is standard xp groups in fz/df/si/etc. The staff can't add something nice like this to make it even better without people whining. Maybe they should completely remove them so nobody can win since not everyone can huh? Maybe we should all get a trophy too.

But when everyone is levling from 40 to 50 with XP items it's no longer a bonus, it is the default. What the items used to be in live is not even remotely compareable as this is not live. Here the xp groups are the bonus, and the items are default.

Sun 30 Sep 2018 5:29 AM by Armsmancer

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Sep 2018 1:14 AM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Sep 2018 3:36 PM
edit : lastly to drive it home, xp items are a BONUS, not the default, the default is standard xp groups in fz/df/si/etc. The staff can't add something nice like this to make it even better without people whining. Maybe they should completely remove them so nobody can win since not everyone can huh? Maybe we should all get a trophy too.

But when everyone is levling from 40 to 50 with XP items it's no longer a bonus, it is the default. What the items used to be in live is not even remotely compareable as this is not live. Here the xp groups are the bonus, and the items are default.

For the 1000th time not everyone is going to be doing it. How many enhance clerics are going to be out there melee'ing oranges again? Only dps classes and those with speed are going to pull ahead of a cleric that is steadily in a group. I wouldn't know though I mean I don't have any 50s or anything that did it before and after task items were implemented in each realm.

Comparing them to "live" as far as what they do/SHOULD do, is a joke, at what point aside sharing in the same name are they on a custom server? Their worth/implementation/impact are entirely tied to the variables in the coding that a Phoenix dev puts on them. "Live" has no bearing on it aside from sharing in name, so not even a moot point here. A custom server is custom, and is under no obligation to be within some specific margins of what Live wants it to be.

If groups are the bonus and not the default, please provide me what you used as the numerator and the denominator for this calculation. Oh wait, its someone just pulling figures out of their butt again, haven't seen that before here.