Getting Concerned with the Server

What is going on with Phoenix lately? Arena in DAOC? A game designed around open world PvP and realm abilities.

You can call it testing, but this is getting absurd. Any kind of instanced PvP will kill the Frontiers. I can see the value in getting to practice against enemy realm classes, but it becomes a slippery slope. The Frontiers are the place to do this in.

The RvR tasks have been beneficial, but still need a lot of changing. They are feeling really repetitive. Run to zone, zigzag through the zergs, 30 mins later task ends and you are running to another realm's frontier. I don't want to run back and forth between Emain and some random keep zone over and over anymore.

Original DAOC had lots of issues with frontiers.The power of fullgroup premade 8mans killed a lot of the fun for more casual players. Yet I feel the frontiers currently are sort of like artificial rp farms. Heck I always felt group sizes being 8 instead of 5 hurt RvR, but I don't imagine that being altered.

My suggestion is to combine the RvR tasks into one task that spans multiple zones in a single realm. Have it alternate between each realm. So if the task is in Hibernia then 3 or 4 of the zones will be available to zerg keeps in, have capture points, roam etc.. There can be a giant pool and every objective or kill will contribute to it on behalf of your realm.

The realm that earns the most from the pool receives a bonus. Still have participation RP even for players who can not stay till the end. This would make it so RvR tasks are not just disconnected RP grabs that last under an hour.

Tue 18 Sep 2018 11:59 PM by Falken

yeah, I haven't logged on/been playing at all, but a 1v1 arena really sounds like something we don't need. If it is implemented it should be ZERO rps, possibly titles only, and purely for practicing or just wanting some action when there is none or you don't want to run around frontiers for 30 mins to find nothing.

I say this as somebody planning to main BD as well

Thu 20 Sep 2018 11:17 PM by Bethoc

Despite the vast majority of custom changes being positive ones, I am starting to feel the same concern, largely as a result of the recent melee style changes which remain undocumented after heavily nerfing hero positional damage (my main) and presumably other classes. This may be based on more 'correct' data, but it has noticeably reduced my effectiveness and risks skewing group compositions even further towards light tank or caster DPS. The reasoning for it hasn't been adequately explained, considering that the devs play fast and loose with many aspects of the game and aren't beholden to strict 1.65 patch adherence. I'm hoping for further style revision and balancing.

The domination/flag capture tasks are also quite dull and pull activity into areas that are biased so far towards a particular realm that their advantage with similar numbers is insurmountable. Beyond that, the objectives are arbitrary - they're at random locations that have no relevance or defensive fortifications. It's a game of groups dancing around each other and cycling back and forth between flags as stealthers wait until you leave and then immediately recapture them.

Like you said, there is a growing sense of repetition, and this isn't a lone sentiment - I've often heard from fellow group members and guildmates that they specifically hate the domination tasks and begrudgingly complete them only for the RP. If they're here to stay (I would prefer them gone entirely), minor fortifications and guards could be added to these areas, which would force more confrontation by slowing capture speed and preventing lone stealthers from singlehandedly undoing the progress of entire groups.

As far as the arena idea, it's potentially damaging to frontier activity and is antithetical to DAoC's fundamental appeal, which is based on large scale realm wide conflicts and not instanced organized fights where both foes are expecting each other. If it's relegated to testing purposes, I won't mind, but I can see 8v8 groups grinding out RP in isolation. 16 players missing from RvR, and potentially several times that.

Thu 20 Sep 2018 11:47 PM by Armsmancer

"As far as the arena idea, it's potentially damaging to frontier activity"

Nowhere is it written players have to go out to the frontiers, and that if they didn't something is somehow "wrong" and must be fixed. I craft a lot, that is "damaging to frontier activity" since I'm not there.

All you guys have here is an unjustified presupposition with appeals to genetics/nature fallacy (how it should beholden to some certain patch level) of how things "should" be.

Your mistake is you are assuming that the goal is to be livelike at some point in the past. You need to look at it more as mods for Skyrim or something people are adding on QOL changes.

Also, get over yourself and stop being selfish. You're walking by some guys having fun 1v1/2v2 in and trying to FORCE them to stop and come play in YOUR sandbox. Mind your own business and stop being controlling. Arena and the rest of the game are not mutually exclusive, they can both exist. And if you have X fewer people to kill where and when you are playing then get over it. The same thing happens when a Sidi raid goes on, ppl leave the frontier. The frontier is not chief #1 concern, active players are. Accept this, swallow the bitter pill and be wiser.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 12:30 AM by Tree

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Sep 2018 11:47 PM
"As far as the arena idea, it's potentially damaging to frontier activity"

Nowhere is it written players have to go out to the frontiers, and that if they didn't something is somehow "wrong" and must be fixed. I craft a lot, that is "damaging to frontier activity" since I'm not there.

All you guys have here is an unjustified presupposition with appeals to genetics/nature fallacy (how it should beholden to some certain patch level) of how things "should" be.

Your mistake is you are assuming that the goal is to be livelike at some point in the past. You need to look at it more as mods for Skyrim or something people are adding on QOL changes.

Also, get over yourself and stop being selfish. You're walking by some guys having fun 1v1/2v2 in and trying to FORCE them to stop and come play in YOUR sandbox. Mind your own business and stop being controlling. Arena and the rest of the game are not mutually exclusive, they can both exist. And if you have X fewer people to kill where and when you are playing then get over it. The same thing happens when a Sidi raid goes on, ppl leave the frontier. The frontier is not chief #1 concern, active players are. Accept this, swallow the bitter pill and be wiser.

I dont think the majority of people is opposed to arena or other ways to experience DAoC in general. The problem are rewards for time played (meaning RP, gold, feathers etc.)
If a new game mode like arena would on average award you more of the aforementioned things you would have to do them to be most efficient and competitive, thus rendering other / classic ways to experience DAoC somewhat obsolete.
That being said I hope Phoenix will continue to innovate, but also consider the impact on existing gameplay. If an arena comes to Phoenix (and I kind of hope it will) then just give it new rewards like special titles, maybe certain apparel/skins, trophies or even some bounty points to help with rent. You could also include a betting system, where a player or group(leader) can bet gold/platin on their win. That would be kinda interesting.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 12:55 AM by Armsmancer

Please quote this in your reply the answers filled out so we all know what true balance looks like and we can move on to other issues

Arena solo kill Rps should be exactly _____________________________
Arena duo kill Rps should be exactly ______________________________

This will clear up any concern we all have so there is no over-production of super high RR's coming out of the arena.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:01 AM by defiasbandit

Level 50 instanced PvP is really not what we need. It's embarassing really. There are so many other issues to address regarding RvR.

Organized dueling is cool, but it should be in the realm zones. There can events and tournaments revolving around it. I would look forward to hosting them to find the best of the best 1v1ers on the server.

You are right most players back in DAOC didn't play much RvR, they leveled characters, did PvE, tradeskills etc.. Part of that was because of how exclusive RvR became as the game went on. The devs are trying to fix those shortcomings on Phoenix. Fragmenting the PvP population is not something you wanna do.

I speak on behalf of a lot of players here that really only play Phoenix for frontiers RvR experience. That is what separated DAOC from other MMOs.

The whole reason why companies made PvP in MMOs instanced was because it let players fight eachother at the click of a button. Battlegrounds, arenas etc.. I could care less about that. MOBAs or FPS games are infinitely superior to those experiences.

Open world PvP is unique and DAOC did it as well as any game.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:01 AM by Bethoc

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Sep 2018 11:47 PM
"As far as the arena idea, it's potentially damaging to frontier activity"

Nowhere is it written players have to go out to the frontiers, and that if they didn't something is somehow "wrong" and must be fixed. I craft a lot, that is "damaging to frontier activity" since I'm not there.

All you guys have here is an unjustified presupposition with appeals to genetics/nature fallacy (how it should beholden to some certain patch level) of how things "should" be.

Your mistake is you are assuming that the goal is to be livelike at some point in the past. You need to look at it more as mods for Skyrim or something people are adding on QOL changes.

Also, get over yourself and stop being selfish. You're walking by some guys having fun 1v1/2v2 in and trying to FORCE them to stop and come play in YOUR sandbox. Mind your own business and stop being controlling. Arena and the rest of the game are not mutually exclusive, they can both exist. And if you have X fewer people to kill where and when you are playing then get over it. The same thing happens when a Sidi raid goes on, ppl leave the frontier. The frontier is not chief #1 concern, active players are. Accept this, swallow the bitter pill and be wiser.

What's with the dismissive attitude and assumption of selfish reasoning? How ugly and needlessly confrontational. It's also laughable that you think our goal is a live-like experience when all suggestions in this thread are further customizations. Did you read any of the text before spouting off on a self-righteous tirade?

To address the actual point about arenas, player engagement in RvR is highly contingent on the ability to find action. When this is absent, players retreat to PvE alternatives or simply log out. The ones who stick around and roam for hours in an almost empty frontier are outliers. So yes, anything that contributes to a drop in RvR activity is a grave concern for not only my own enjoyment, but the overall health of the server. An example of this very problem can be found on Uthgard regarding its NA timezone, which became utterly dead and caused hundreds of players to jump ship to Phoenix.

I say this as someone who experienced the fall of numerous MMORPGs centered primarily around PvP and ongoing activity sustained by the playerbase's own initiative, rather than the developers' constant creation of new content. When activity is weakened enough, these games die. It happened to Shadowbane, Darkfall, Face of Mankind, etc. The causes varied, but the collapse was in every case precipitated by a decline of the playerbase beneath a certain point. Do I believe arenas are going to cause a death spiral? No, but they could easily lead to reduced keep captures, inability to take relics, and a slide towards organized 8v8 away from large scale battles. Less dynamic and more static, with fewer attempts at larger objectives, and ultimately a shorter life span for the server, because of a diminished ability for it to provide the RvR experience many (not all) players are seeking.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:03 AM by defiasbandit

If you want instant level 50 Arena fights in DAOC. Phoenix is thankfully not the server for you.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:25 AM by Armsmancer

Bethoc wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:01 AM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Sep 2018 11:47 PM
"As far as the arena idea, it's potentially damaging to frontier activity"

Nowhere is it written players have to go out to the frontiers, and that if they didn't something is somehow "wrong" and must be fixed. I craft a lot, that is "damaging to frontier activity" since I'm not there.

All you guys have here is an unjustified presupposition with appeals to genetics/nature fallacy (how it should beholden to some certain patch level) of how things "should" be.

Your mistake is you are assuming that the goal is to be livelike at some point in the past. You need to look at it more as mods for Skyrim or something people are adding on QOL changes.

Also, get over yourself and stop being selfish. You're walking by some guys having fun 1v1/2v2 in and trying to FORCE them to stop and come play in YOUR sandbox. Mind your own business and stop being controlling. Arena and the rest of the game are not mutually exclusive, they can both exist. And if you have X fewer people to kill where and when you are playing then get over it. The same thing happens when a Sidi raid goes on, ppl leave the frontier. The frontier is not chief #1 concern, active players are. Accept this, swallow the bitter pill and be wiser.
What's with the dismissive attitude and assumption of selfish reasoning? How ugly and needlessly confrontational. It's also laughable that you think our goal is a live-like experience when all suggestions in this thread are further customizations. Did you read any of the text before spouting off on a self-righteous tirade?

To address the actual point about arenas, player engagement in RvR is highly contingent on the ability to find action. When this is absent, players retreat to PvE alternatives or simply log out. The ones who stick around and roam for hours in an almost empty frontier are outliers. So yes, anything that contributes to a drop in RvR activity is a grave concern for not only my own enjoyment, but the overall health of the server. An example of this very problem can be found on Uthgard regarding its NA timezone, which became utterly dead and caused hundreds of players to jump ship to Phoenix.

I say this as someone who experienced the fall of numerous MMORPGs centered primarily around PvP and ongoing activity sustained by the playerbase's own initiative, rather than the developers' constant creation of new content. When activity is weakened enough, these games die. It happened to Shadowbane, Darkfall, Face of Mankind, etc. The causes varied, but the collapse was in every case precipitated by a decline of the playerbase beneath a certain point. Do I believe arenas are going to cause a death spiral? No, but they could easily lead to reduced keep captures, inability to take relics, and a slide towards organized 8v8 away from large scale battles. Less dynamic and more static, with fewer attempts at larger objectives, and ultimately a shorter life span for the server, because of a diminished ability for it to provide the RvR experience many (not all) players are seeking.

I take a stark tone because I have people like you that I already addressed the main vein and point and you double down on it and do not deal with the giant flaw I just pointed out, you just trot along whistling like I'm not pointing right at it.

I get the feeling with you I will have to point this out again.

"To address the actual point about arenas, player engagement in RvR is highly contingent on the ability to find action. When this is absent, players retreat to PvE alternatives or simply log out. The ones who stick around and roam for hours in an almost empty frontier are outliers. So yes, anything that contributes to a drop in RvR activity is a grave concern for not only my own enjoyment, but the overall health of the server"

Again, this is an unjustified presupposition. I said that before, and you didn't address it. If i have to break it down further :

OTHER PLAYERS ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO GO TO THE ZONE YOU WANT AND FIGHT THE WAY YOU WANT

Your suggestion is rude because your suggestions will actually REMOVE the ability for players to freely do what they want with the options presented to them. I have harsh words against this.

But I'm the bad guy right, oooooooo mean words vs. removing complete gaming modes people are obviously enjoying. Think which has a bigger effect Einstein.

Edit : For the record I never have and never will play arena mode. I have no dog in this fight aside from having to mace-spray with harsh words towards people that are attempting to come in and break it so nobody else can play with it; they're saying things like I don't see exactly what they are doing, you are trying to shoehorn all players into one box of one type of gaming and you do not have that playerbase. Exhibit A : ppl are enjoying events and arenas and tasking. This is self evident. Adapt to it, and stop trying to take the enjoyment these players are having away from them to come be forced to play with YOUR TOYS in YOUR SANDBOX. This is what you want, going crying to the teacher because other ppl won't come play with you.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:33 AM by Armsmancer

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:03 AM
If you want instant level 50 Arena fights in DAOC. Phoenix is thankfully not the server for you.

i50 is coming soon and arena will be here then, so for the rest of that time Phoenix will be exactly the server for you if you want those things

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:35 AM by defiasbandit

Players enjoy those activities because they are Easy RPS and easy action. That is the same reason why Blizzard added battlegrounds and Arena to WoW.

This isn't WoW. This is a custom server trying to make FZ RvR better than it has ever been. The task system is improving each iteration pretty much.

There was no instanced RvR at 50 in DAOC. That is fundamentally opposed to the core of the game in everyway.

You act like because some players flock to something that it's a good mechanic or addition to the game. Sure some players are enjoying it for a few days, but what makes you think they will spend months playing some instanced PvP or Arena event in DAOC. It also causes players to complain about 1v1 balance etc.. which was never a part of DAOC.

Idea here is to create RvR in the Frontiers that keeps players wanting more and playing here for months if not years.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:37 AM by Armsmancer

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:35 AM
Players enjoy those activities because they are Easy RPS and easy action. That is the same reason why Blizzard added battlegrounds and Arena to WoW.

This isn't WoW. This is a custom server trying to make FZ RvR better than it has ever been. The task system is improving each iteration pretty much.

There was no instanced RvR at 50 in DAOC. That is fundamentally opposed to the core of the game in everyway.

2 for 1 ya'll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:41 AM by Armsmancer

"Welcome to Phoenix - a Classic inspired DAoC Freeshard#1" - Vivien

key word Inspired

"Using Patch 1.65 as a basis for our development, we have already implemented some changes and a big chunk of QoL’s"

key word Basis

pls keep up

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:42 AM by Anonymouse

Agreed, these radical additions to the RvR side of the game are starting to feel like they're crossing a fundamental line that is DAoC. The feathers, skins, and SO much of the server are totally on point, and yes RvR additions are necessary. But if it turns into a bizarro version of DAoC that's hardly recognizable, then it may be time to move on to one of the modern mmo's on the horizon.

And Armsmancer is a chump, just read his post history. Pretty douchey 95% of the time lol

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:43 AM by defiasbandit

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:37 AM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:35 AM
Players enjoy those activities because they are Easy RPS and easy action. That is the same reason why Blizzard added battlegrounds and Arena to WoW.

This isn't WoW. This is a custom server trying to make FZ RvR better than it has ever been. The task system is improving each iteration pretty much.

There was no instanced RvR at 50 in DAOC. That is fundamentally opposed to the core of the game in everyway.

2 for 1 ya'll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

You just don't get it. DAOC RvR always has had its problems. Mythic never got it right. Uthgard never got it right. Phoenix is trying to make it better than it ever was.

Mythic never added Arena or something like that to DAOC even when the population was dying. Why? Because Open World 3 realm PvP was the only selling point to the game .Adding PvP minigames or instances at level 50 is not what we need right now. DAOC is not about instanced PvP. It is antithetical to level 50 RvR. Is Darknessfalls instanced? No it is a open zone for RvR.

You don't realize how tenous and catastrophic additions like an arena or level 50 battleground can be to the game.

If you do not have constant and consistent action in the Frontiers then RvR will fail and the server will die. Uthgard died partly for this reason.

If you want instanced level 50 RvR on a DAOC server, then I am sure there are some shards with 20 population out there for you to play on.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:43 AM by Armsmancer

Anonymouse wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:42 AM
Agreed, these radical additions to the RvR side of the game are starting to feel like they're crossing a fundamental line that is DAoC. The feathers, skins, and SO much of the server are totally on point, and yes RvR additions are necessary. But if it turns into a bizarro version of DAoC that's hardly recognizable, then it may be time to move on to one of the modern mmo's on the horizon.

And Armsmancer is a chump, just read his post history. Pretty douchey 95% of the time lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

its like you aren't even trying

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:47 AM by Armsmancer

"Adding PvP minigames or instances at level 50 is not what we need right now."

Citation needed.

"DAOC is not about instanced PvP."

Citation needed.

"It is antithetical to level 50 RvR. Is Darknessfalls instanced? No it is a open zone for RvR."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

"You don't realize how tenous and catastrophic additions like an arena or level 50 battleground can be to the game. "

Citation needed.

"If you do not have constant and consistent action in the Frontiers then RvR will fail and the server will die. Uthgard died partly for this reason."

CItation needed

"If you want instanced level 50 RvR on a DAOC server, then I am sure there are some shard with 20 population out there for you to play on."

I already said I won't ever be participating in the arena system, not my bag.

But I'm not going to be the real douche and remove others from enjoying what they enjoy. I say my points without honeyed words so that makes me worse here to some than actually removing content. Snowflakes all of them, stop taking away other people's toys and making them just play with yours.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:51 AM by Armsmancer

Nothing any of you above have said justifies taking away a new event or system from the players that enjoy them.

Nothing any of you above have said takes away from the glaring fact : you want them to do what you want them to do. You want to tell players how they should be spending their time. If this statement is incorrect, please scroll back up and across the forums to see all the resistance.

You have a built in, unjustified presupposition that

a) frontier rvr is all that there should really be at 50
b) that people don't tire of frontier rvr

The goal is a healthy server where everyone can do what they want. You are basing a lot of this on current low-pop beta population. I said before if there were 5000 players here you wouldn't be complaining, but if your justification changes with the winds of population then the flaw in your reasoning has been exposed. The goal, again, is high population. This mechanic may bring more players that otherwise wouldn't even be here.

There is nothing wrong with a player choosing to want to play arena and test their skill in small man and not wanting to drone on in 8v8 or zerg fights. DAOC isn't about what you think it is about, it is about whatever the player wants it to be.

STOP FORCING YOUR PREFERENCES ON OTHERS

Fri 21 Sep 2018 2:01 AM by defiasbandit

Well since apparently none us were able to explain why it is a bad idea, you just did it your last post.

We don't have 5000 players. We may never have 5000 players. The frontier zones may struggle to fill at launch. This is why adding an Arena right now is not what we need. We don't want to fragment the RvR community at this point.

If the Frontiers were highly populated and better than ever, then maybe down the line having something like an arena should be up for discussion.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 2:40 AM by Bethoc

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:25 AM
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:01 AM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Sep 2018 11:47 PM
"As far as the arena idea, it's potentially damaging to frontier activity"

Nowhere is it written players have to go out to the frontiers, and that if they didn't something is somehow "wrong" and must be fixed. I craft a lot, that is "damaging to frontier activity" since I'm not there.

All you guys have here is an unjustified presupposition with appeals to genetics/nature fallacy (how it should beholden to some certain patch level) of how things "should" be.

Your mistake is you are assuming that the goal is to be livelike at some point in the past. You need to look at it more as mods for Skyrim or something people are adding on QOL changes.

Also, get over yourself and stop being selfish. You're walking by some guys having fun 1v1/2v2 in and trying to FORCE them to stop and come play in YOUR sandbox. Mind your own business and stop being controlling. Arena and the rest of the game are not mutually exclusive, they can both exist. And if you have X fewer people to kill where and when you are playing then get over it. The same thing happens when a Sidi raid goes on, ppl leave the frontier. The frontier is not chief #1 concern, active players are. Accept this, swallow the bitter pill and be wiser.
What's with the dismissive attitude and assumption of selfish reasoning? How ugly and needlessly confrontational. It's also laughable that you think our goal is a live-like experience when all suggestions in this thread are further customizations. Did you read any of the text before spouting off on a self-righteous tirade?

To address the actual point about arenas, player engagement in RvR is highly contingent on the ability to find action. When this is absent, players retreat to PvE alternatives or simply log out. The ones who stick around and roam for hours in an almost empty frontier are outliers. So yes, anything that contributes to a drop in RvR activity is a grave concern for not only my own enjoyment, but the overall health of the server. An example of this very problem can be found on Uthgard regarding its NA timezone, which became utterly dead and caused hundreds of players to jump ship to Phoenix.

I say this as someone who experienced the fall of numerous MMORPGs centered primarily around PvP and ongoing activity sustained by the playerbase's own initiative, rather than the developers' constant creation of new content. When activity is weakened enough, these games die. It happened to Shadowbane, Darkfall, Face of Mankind, etc. The causes varied, but the collapse was in every case precipitated by a decline of the playerbase beneath a certain point. Do I believe arenas are going to cause a death spiral? No, but they could easily lead to reduced keep captures, inability to take relics, and a slide towards organized 8v8 away from large scale battles. Less dynamic and more static, with fewer attempts at larger objectives, and ultimately a shorter life span for the server, because of a diminished ability for it to provide the RvR experience many (not all) players are seeking.

I take a stark tone because I have people like you that I already addressed the main vein and point and you double down on it and do not deal with the giant flaw I just pointed out, you just trot along whistling like I'm not pointing right at it.

I get the feeling with you I will have to point this out again.

"To address the actual point about arenas, player engagement in RvR is highly contingent on the ability to find action. When this is absent, players retreat to PvE alternatives or simply log out. The ones who stick around and roam for hours in an almost empty frontier are outliers. So yes, anything that contributes to a drop in RvR activity is a grave concern for not only my own enjoyment, but the overall health of the server"

Again, this is an unjustified presupposition. I said that before, and you didn't address it. If i have to break it down further :

OTHER PLAYERS ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO GO TO THE ZONE YOU WANT AND FIGHT THE WAY YOU WANT

Your suggestion is rude because your suggestions will actually REMOVE the ability for players to freely do what they want with the options presented to them. I have harsh words against this.

But I'm the bad guy right, oooooooo mean words vs. removing complete gaming modes people are obviously enjoying. Think which has a bigger effect Einstein.

Edit : For the record I never have and never will play arena mode. I have no dog in this fight aside from having to mace-spray with harsh words towards people that are attempting to come in and break it so nobody else can play with it; they're saying things like I don't see exactly what they are doing, you are trying to shoehorn all players into one box of one type of gaming and you do not have that playerbase. Exhibit A : ppl are enjoying events and arenas and tasking. This is self evident. Adapt to it, and stop trying to take the enjoyment these players are having away from them to come be forced to play with YOUR TOYS in YOUR SANDBOX. This is what you want, going crying to the teacher because other ppl won't come play with you.

Stating that something is an unjustified presupposition doesn't make that the case, nor does it excuse your condescending nastiness. You breezed right past two whole paragraphs supporting the supposition that frontier RvR is vital to the health of the server. That this partially coincides with my own playstyle/gameplay interests should be irrelevant. I happen to appreciate PvE as well and have nothing at all against arena PvP unless it begins negatively impacting frontier activity, which I do see as a risk. 16 players missing doesn't matter on a 2000 population server, but it sure will on one with 200.

Perhaps discuss the merit of an idea instead of (incorrectly) guessing the intention behind it. Do you see a kneejerk demand on my part to immediately shut down the arena? No, anyone who takes the time to read will see that it's an agreement of concern and an expression of preference - which is the point of this thread and a means by which the developers can gauge community feedback. I skimmed over some of your later statements, and it seems you're obsessing about and misapplying logical fallacies instead of properly addressing the points that others raise, while expecting them to care about the ones you raise. That's not the best way to handle discussions, and on that note I am done with this exchange.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 3:17 AM by Anonymouse

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:51 AM
Nothing any of you above have said justifies taking away a new event or system from the players that enjoy them.

Nothing any of you above have said takes away from the glaring fact : you want them to do what you want them to do. You want to tell players how they should be spending their time. If this statement is incorrect, please scroll back up and across the forums to see all the resistance.

You have a built in, unjustified presupposition that

a) frontier rvr is all that there should really be at 50
b) that people don't tire of frontier rvr

The goal is a healthy server where everyone can do what they want. You are basing a lot of this on current low-pop beta population. I said before if there were 5000 players here you wouldn't be complaining, but if your justification changes with the winds of population then the flaw in your reasoning has been exposed. The goal, again, is high population. This mechanic may bring more players that otherwise wouldn't even be here.

There is nothing wrong with a player choosing to want to play arena and test their skill in small man and not wanting to drone on in 8v8 or zerg fights. DAOC isn't about what you think it is about, it is about whatever the player wants it to be.

STOP FORCING YOUR PREFERENCES ON OTHERS

I feel like our personal opinions have gotten all up in assmancer's safe space

Fri 21 Sep 2018 3:20 AM by Armsmancer

Bethoc wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 2:40 AM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:25 AM
Bethoc wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:01 AM
What's with the dismissive attitude and assumption of selfish reasoning? How ugly and needlessly confrontational. It's also laughable that you think our goal is a live-like experience when all suggestions in this thread are further customizations. Did you read any of the text before spouting off on a self-righteous tirade?

To address the actual point about arenas, player engagement in RvR is highly contingent on the ability to find action. When this is absent, players retreat to PvE alternatives or simply log out. The ones who stick around and roam for hours in an almost empty frontier are outliers. So yes, anything that contributes to a drop in RvR activity is a grave concern for not only my own enjoyment, but the overall health of the server. An example of this very problem can be found on Uthgard regarding its NA timezone, which became utterly dead and caused hundreds of players to jump ship to Phoenix.

I say this as someone who experienced the fall of numerous MMORPGs centered primarily around PvP and ongoing activity sustained by the playerbase's own initiative, rather than the developers' constant creation of new content. When activity is weakened enough, these games die. It happened to Shadowbane, Darkfall, Face of Mankind, etc. The causes varied, but the collapse was in every case precipitated by a decline of the playerbase beneath a certain point. Do I believe arenas are going to cause a death spiral? No, but they could easily lead to reduced keep captures, inability to take relics, and a slide towards organized 8v8 away from large scale battles. Less dynamic and more static, with fewer attempts at larger objectives, and ultimately a shorter life span for the server, because of a diminished ability for it to provide the RvR experience many (not all) players are seeking.

I take a stark tone because I have people like you that I already addressed the main vein and point and you double down on it and do not deal with the giant flaw I just pointed out, you just trot along whistling like I'm not pointing right at it.

I get the feeling with you I will have to point this out again.

"To address the actual point about arenas, player engagement in RvR is highly contingent on the ability to find action. When this is absent, players retreat to PvE alternatives or simply log out. The ones who stick around and roam for hours in an almost empty frontier are outliers. So yes, anything that contributes to a drop in RvR activity is a grave concern for not only my own enjoyment, but the overall health of the server"

Again, this is an unjustified presupposition. I said that before, and you didn't address it. If i have to break it down further :

OTHER PLAYERS ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO GO TO THE ZONE YOU WANT AND FIGHT THE WAY YOU WANT

Your suggestion is rude because your suggestions will actually REMOVE the ability for players to freely do what they want with the options presented to them. I have harsh words against this.

But I'm the bad guy right, oooooooo mean words vs. removing complete gaming modes people are obviously enjoying. Think which has a bigger effect Einstein.

Edit : For the record I never have and never will play arena mode. I have no dog in this fight aside from having to mace-spray with harsh words towards people that are attempting to come in and break it so nobody else can play with it; they're saying things like I don't see exactly what they are doing, you are trying to shoehorn all players into one box of one type of gaming and you do not have that playerbase. Exhibit A : ppl are enjoying events and arenas and tasking. This is self evident. Adapt to it, and stop trying to take the enjoyment these players are having away from them to come be forced to play with YOUR TOYS in YOUR SANDBOX. This is what you want, going crying to the teacher because other ppl won't come play with you.
Stating that something is an unjustified presupposition doesn't make that the case, nor does it excuse your condescending nastiness. You breezed right past two whole paragraphs supporting the supposition that frontier RvR is vital to the health of the server. That this partially coincides with my own playstyle/gameplay interests should be irrelevant. I happen to appreciate PvE as well and have nothing at all against arena PvP unless it begins negatively impacting frontier activity, which I do see as a risk. 16 players missing doesn't matter on a 2000 population server, but it sure will on one with 200.

Perhaps discuss the merit of an idea instead of (incorrectly) guessing the intention behind it. Do you see a kneejerk demand on my part to immediately shut down the arena? No, anyone who takes the time to read will see that it's an agreement of concern and an expression of preference - which is the point of this thread and a means by which the developers can gauge community feedback. I skimmed over some of your later statements, and it seems you're obsessing about and misapplying logical fallacies instead of properly addressing the points that others raise, while expecting them to care about the ones you raise. That's not the best way to handle discussions, and on that note I am done with this exchange.

You're right, sorry. I was conflating your posts with the others and mistakenly lumped them together. I redirect those points onto those saying things like Arena has no place in the game, etc. My apologies.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 3:23 AM by Armsmancer

Anonymouse wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 3:17 AM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 1:51 AM
Nothing any of you above have said justifies taking away a new event or system from the players that enjoy them.

Nothing any of you above have said takes away from the glaring fact : you want them to do what you want them to do. You want to tell players how they should be spending their time. If this statement is incorrect, please scroll back up and across the forums to see all the resistance.

You have a built in, unjustified presupposition that

a) frontier rvr is all that there should really be at 50
b) that people don't tire of frontier rvr

The goal is a healthy server where everyone can do what they want. You are basing a lot of this on current low-pop beta population. I said before if there were 5000 players here you wouldn't be complaining, but if your justification changes with the winds of population then the flaw in your reasoning has been exposed. The goal, again, is high population. This mechanic may bring more players that otherwise wouldn't even be here.

There is nothing wrong with a player choosing to want to play arena and test their skill in small man and not wanting to drone on in 8v8 or zerg fights. DAOC isn't about what you think it is about, it is about whatever the player wants it to be.

STOP FORCING YOUR PREFERENCES ON OTHERS

I feel like our personal opinions have gotten all up in assmancer's safe space

The caps and stuff is meant to bring attention to the main point of contention which is for me that others are in various ranges of degrees trying to redirect players from what they would be doing given absolute freedom, into what their vision is on what they should REALLY be doing with their time.

I'm not sitting here with steam coming out of my ears or something. Again no dog in the fight. I've been a part of a few servers and there are always this group of people who unashamedly tell other players that they know better and how they think, and with admin power behind it, change the way players want to spend their time in game.

I'll pump my brakes a bit though don't want to lose the war vs. battle and all that. Sorry for my tone lately, I'll walk it back. I'm hoping everyone can do what they want without interference of how other types play trying to influence the admins to make it more about them and about just a free sandbox we can all do what we want in. Cheers.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 5:33 AM by Kaziera

Armsmancer, while i think your points are all factually correct as well as the logical observations, from an emotional and human point of view i only can say:

Dude, back off.

You can only discuss WITH ppl. Not AGAINST them. And yes, i shortenend this statement. But you get the point.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 5:37 AM by Armsmancer

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 5:33 AM
Armsmancer, while i think your points are all factually correct as well as the logical observations, from an emotional and human point of view i only can say:

Dude, back off.

You can only discuss WITH ppl. Not AGAINST them. And yes, i shortenend this statement. But you get the point.

My last two posts are apologetic with me literally saying I'm backing off so

Fri 21 Sep 2018 8:23 AM by Kaziera

I was making more of a general statement.

Usualy i share your points. I just find it sad, because in your post all that ppl read is HATE HATE HATE. And the point gets lost.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 7:04 AM by gosupepper

Lower the groupsize to 5 people.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 8:58 AM by defiasbandit

gosupepper wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Sep 2018 7:04 AM
Lower the groupsize to 5 people.

I've been pushing for this since 2003. Would tell Mythic about it every other day.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 1:27 PM by Ganaka

gosupepper wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Sep 2018 7:04 AM
Lower the groupsize to 5 people.

I agree. Lowering the max group size to 5 (or 6, but not 7 or more) would help the server a lot.

For those that have been asking for it, even if indirectly... It would also be an indirect nerf to healers, since the group heals and group buffs would affect fewer people.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 4:23 PM by vulna

For the record, I do not care if arena makes it in at launch or not. It makes zero difference to me. However, I do believe Phoenix will have the population to support both the frontiers and an arena system. The simplest solution is to put it in and keep an eye on the action. The Phoenix team has proven to be very proactive, they're not going to let an arena kill the frontiers.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 2:20 AM by defiasbandit

Move the realm tasks out of the portal zones.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 4:49 AM by Bradekes

Arena play is okay.
Zerg is okay.
8 man is okay.
Giving players options is okay.
Anything that brings people to the game that makes them think, "I think that is cool, I'm gunna try it." is okay.

There may be some issues with how RvR tasks are setup. There maybe other ways they can initiate realm fights. This server has only been up a little more than a month and you're already taking it for granted. How about stop posting all your negative connotations about where they are going wrong all the time. They have worked hard and have a great thing going on. Yes it will need more and more as it goes also tweaking. You constantly are making posts about how doomed it is if they don't change things your way RIGHT NOW. Kinda exhausting reading all your posts all the time, and I'm not even a GM or Dev or anything...

Maybe take a break from the forums for a week and try enjoying the game...

Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:04 AM by Sepplord

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 2:20 AM
Move the realm tasks out of the portal zones.

thank god you and your upvotebuddy found this 5month old thread and necrod it without new information/arguments

mindboggling

pls lock

Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:19 AM by milesnapue

Guessing you all have not seen this yet...
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=5383

Mon 18 Feb 2019 8:43 AM by Sepplord

milesnapue wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:19 AM
Guessing you all have not seen this yet...
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=5383

He had seen it, he had also already posted in that thread AND made an identical new thread before necroing here

spamming the forum is his thing

Mon 18 Feb 2019 8:45 AM by Durgrim

...and also being the #1 world's most worried and concerned person