(Class Balance) Ways to bring up underutilized Hybrids

Started 25 Aug 2018
by senseless
in Suggestions
So time and time again, I see posts regarding how many underutilized Hybrids are thrown by the wayside due to QoL changes (ie pots vs friar and pally utility). Though the pots are possibly a factor that help contribute to this, I think that the argument seems more valid mainly because some of the classes fundamentals are flawed to begin with. I am sure there are hib and mid counterparts that could argue this same topic (possible warden or thane low utility) Rather than argue that pots are ruining a fundementally flawed class, would it be worth arguing that with a few additions, these classes could be made viable? These are all really rough ideas, but I think some could be tossed around. Possible changes could include:

Paladin:
Ranged snare or DDs on a timer similar to mini. Mini still has SOS, speed, pet stun on timer so I feel that these would not overlap utility greatly. Rupts would put them more in line with champ and thane without stealing from their identity too bad.

More spec points?
Could offer some damage spec options.

ABS debuff style?
Something similar to live battlewarden. Might help add them to tank groups?

Insta celerity buff on a long timer?
Something similar to Reavers insta self DA. 1 min or 30 sec duration on (insert timer here) cool down. Bonus points if it's 250 range PBAoE.

PB BT style or insta on cool down?
Usable like a guard on ally. Maybe a spell-specific BT, not sure how hard that would be to code.

Mezz feedback protect?
Kind of like GoLM charge that you can throw onto an ally. Unsure of timer.

Insta speed on reuse timer?
Kind of like the archer get out of jail free cards. Damage could knock them out of it, but could be useful to zone, peel, Chase, ect.


I know pally is kinda what I spitballed off the top of my head atm, maybe one or two additions similar to the above suggested would add unique utility without gimping other classes. I am sure they would all need some serious testing/ tweaking to get nailed down and have values adjusted to
I would love to hear what people could drum up for other underutilized Hybrids as well. If this thread gains traction, I'll actually put some together for friar/warden/champ/thane (though admittedly I am less familiar with them)
Sat 25 Aug 2018 11:43 PM by Bigga
no, this is not classic.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:04 PM by Joc
Cant really make the arguement for keeping it classic anymore. To say this server is highly customized even is an understatement.

I love it though. There have been a ton of QOL and class tweaks. So far they all have made sense. We will see where they go with pallys and minis.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:28 PM by relvinian
Bigga wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 11:43 PM
no, this is not classic.

Classic 1.65, population 100
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:56 PM by Cadebrennus
Adding Shield spec to Wardens would make them highly groupable in PVE and RVR without making them OP
Sun 26 Aug 2018 4:04 PM by Zansobar
What about breaking the mold of only one speed class per realm? What if you gave Paladins speed in their Chants line? Since speed is a pretty much must have in RvR groups it would lead to more groups running with a Paladin. I still think given how overpowered a Minstrel is they would still get RvR groups too, at least at a MUCH higher rate than current Paladins. (Minstrel would still have numerous rupts and mez cure etc.).

Along that line, what if Thanes got speed as the second Midgard class to gain speed? Skalds would still have more rupts than a Thane and still get RvR groups at a very high clip, but now Thanes would also.

And in Hibernia, what about giving Champions speed - again no one is NOT going to group a Bard just because Champs got speed, but it means Champs WILL get RvR groups.

Anyway, spreading speed around to more classes wouldn't affect PvE much at all, but would make those classes much more appealing to RvR groups and allow for more diverse and imaginative group make-ups instead of the same cookie-cutter composition that we've seen for 17 years.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 6:53 PM by relvinian
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:56 PM
Adding Shield spec to Wardens would make them highly groupable in PVE and RVR without making them OP

How about spec points with this suggestion?
Sun 26 Aug 2018 7:09 PM by Ganaka
relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 6:53 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:56 PM
Adding Shield spec to Wardens would make them highly groupable in PVE and RVR without making them OP

How about spec points with this suggestion?

They already have buffs, heals, blade, blunt, and parry. If Wardens get shield and more points, why would anyone choose to play a Hero or BM over a Warden?
Sun 26 Aug 2018 7:29 PM by Magesty
If you’re going to look at adjusting Paladins you have to first decide what your goal is with the changes.

When considering balance most people are inclined to focus on adjusting for 8v8 play. That is to say they try to find ways to cram whatever gimp class it may be into a slot in an 8man. This seemed to generally be the approach Mythic took when making adjustments and it is why we saw so many random and sweeping changes from patch to patch.

I don’t think this is the right way to make decisions. 8v8 is a highly specialized environment and you often have to strengthen a non-specialized class very far in one direction to find them a spot. Oftentimes this type of overcompensation leads to homogenization across realms or it wrecks havoc on solo/small man gameplay. Celerity being given to paladins, leviathan type styles being given to thanes/valks/vales, and heal procs/styles on Friars are all examples of this overcompensation.

I think the goal for Paladins is to get them to a spot where they are viable in small mans and can be subbed into certain 8man setups without losing much. They are currently too weak as damage dealers/assisters and offer no real meaningful utility outside of end chant.

How do we achieve this? Before looking at adding abilities or anything extreme, granular changes can be made to their existing kit. Their base stats and weaponskill can be adjusted upwards. They can be given more spec points. The numbers on their heal and resist chants can be modified. The heal chant is a class defining ability and should be a focal point of any ability-based changes.

I think that the above changes would be enough to accomplish the goal of making Paladins a worthwhile addition to a small man or possibly fill a role in certain 8man setups. If they are not enough then you look into adding abilities. It is vital that these fit into the theme of the class and don’t contribute to homogenization. Paladins are tanky fighters that are stronger against melee and provide support/healing with a holy theme. Perhaps you consider giving them an instant, no Rez sick, rez or an instant “holy nova” style ability. Maybe something like a PBAE effectiveness debuff shout to help them reduce incoming damage. Whatever abilities are given need to respect the design and goals for the class while also not making them a necessity in 8mans or overbearing in solo/small man fights.

In short, I think increasing the strength of paladins existing abilities and, more importantly, increasing their weaponskill and stats will make them viable. I’ve seen a lot of people clamoring for the removal of endurance potions to force Paladins back into groups. The issue is this doesn’t fix the underlying issues with the class and just forces people to drag them around as endo bots. They are still weak and generally useless except for one ability.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 7:29 PM by Magesty
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 7:09 PM
relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 6:53 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:56 PM
Adding Shield spec to Wardens would make them highly groupable in PVE and RVR without making them OP

How about spec points with this suggestion?

They already have buffs, heals, blade, blunt, and parry. If Wardens get shield and more points, why would anyone choose to play a Hero or BM over a Warden?

Because wardens have very low weaponskill and do no damage.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 7:30 PM by Isavyr
It appears popular to want to add more toys to make each class better. I don't think these are the right answers, as it makes the class more complicated, and takes away one of the things that made classic ideal--its simplicity. I think it's better to examine each class, its intended role, and if that role can be satisfied without homogenizing or expanding its toolkit. For examples, see below:

Paladin was originally a tank. It was emasculated by the early RvR patch which gave its brother tanks speccable Determination. While Mythic later gave the paladin celerity, as they moved to homogenize all realms, I think the simplest solution for the Paladin is to restore what went originally wrong--it didn't get determination. It was designed as a support tank, with lesser hp, lesser damage, and chants to compensate. For it to be effective, the simplest solution is to give it full determination + stoicism so it can behave more like a typical tank. You could go further, but this is really the simplest way to make it effective, and still feel very classic.

Warden is neglected in most setups, and probably considered niche. I think having a more reliable snare would go a long way in allowing the warden to effectively behave as a peeler. An any-time snare, for example. It already has lesser Determination, increased heals and cure disease/poison, so I think it's well-rounded in its other role of supporting healing. I think shield spec is unnecessary complication that contributes to power creep.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 12:06 PM by jonl
warden does not need any more buffs
Mon 27 Aug 2018 6:33 PM by Seigmoraig
While heal styles would be nice for Friar, I can see how it would upset a lot to have them in. However some some smaller changes could be done to have them be more desirable.
Change the base growth stats. Currently they have PIE/CON/STR as primary, secondary, tertiary growth stats. Change this to DEX/CON/PIE
Staff styles are very messy. They have 2 evade chains and 2 melee snares. While I don't really have a problem with the 2 evade chains existing because one is super low level, having 2 almost unusable snare styles isn't great. An off evade and side snare isn't great. Have one be a back snare, possibly 2nd in line or with a low growth rate would be a great step up.
Self buffs. Friar could have a self spec con buff (69 value like self dex/qui) so that they can be fully buffed by themself.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 10:00 PM by Whitecrow
Warden with Thornfield blade turn damage chant heals and Determination does not need buffing it's amazing class for tank groups or even for caster group to peel heal and pbaoe.

With druid group purge and self purge he can keep group blade turn up.

I guess they get cure disease and poison on this server unlike the other freeshard.

Friar self haste should also give group haste.

Thane group lighting damage add chant

Pally is a hard one
Mon 27 Aug 2018 11:23 PM by Niix
Whitecrow wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Aug 2018 10:00 PM
Warden with Thornfield blade turn damage chant heals and Determination does not need buffing it's amazing class for tank groups or even for caster group to peel heal and pbaoe.

With druid group purge and self purge he can keep group blade turn up.

I guess they get cure disease and poison on this server unlike the other freeshard.

Friar self haste should also give group haste.

Thane group lighting damage add chant

Pally is a hard one

Think there are lots of little things they could do to incentify putting at least one hybrid in groups..

Dmg add on thane is bad idea, they get that from shaman and skald, still no reason to group thane over savage or zerk.

Maybe create a new skill for all hybrids that make them better peelers as that’s where they’re already strongest at and most useful in groups. Like a pbaoe root/snare purge for group mates.
Tue 28 Aug 2018 12:45 AM by Ganaka
Damage adds of different types stack.
Tue 28 Aug 2018 11:00 PM by Niix
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Aug 2018 12:45 AM
Damage adds of different types stack.

Oh really? that's OP, would be a fine change for Thanes then... still not sure its enough to bring them into a group over savage/war/zerker tho.
Wed 29 Aug 2018 5:18 AM by Isavyr
I don't know that it'd be a good idea to change the meta, as it risks alienating players and/or destroying the classic feeling.

Regarding thanes--they currently have lighter Determination, with stronger burst than a warrior. I don't think it, or the Champion, suffers from the same problems as other hybrids, as their spells are unique and interrupting, even if it that use doesn't make them immediately obvious to all group configurations. I think moving to lighter Det was the right choice, but we still have time to judge whether those classes will be played (i50) before writing them off as insufficient.

Just my two cents anyway.
Wed 29 Aug 2018 5:30 AM by vulna
Seigmoraig wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Aug 2018 6:33 PM
While heal styles would be nice for Friar, I can see how it would upset a lot to have them in. However some some smaller changes could be done to have them be more desirable.
Change the base growth stats. Currently they have PIE/CON/STR as primary, secondary, tertiary growth stats. Change this to DEX/CON/PIE
Staff styles are very messy. They have 2 evade chains and 2 melee snares. While I don't really have a problem with the 2 evade chains existing because one is super low level, having 2 almost unusable snare styles isn't great. An off evade and side snare isn't great. Have one be a back snare, possibly 2nd in line or with a low growth rate would be a great step up.
Self buffs. Friar could have a self spec con buff (69 value like self dex/qui) so that they can be fully buffed by themself.

Friar side snare is one of the best snare styles in the game, both for duration and ease of pulling it off.

If you have never played a melee, the side arcs are HUGE and massively forgiving compared to the front and rear arcs. Changing Friar's Friend to a rear snare would be a nerf!
Wed 29 Aug 2018 9:01 AM by Druth
Friars only need 2 things.

A reason to spec 50 staff.
And stun to be 2nd in chain and not 3rd.

Making dex primary would make their damage/ws quite insane.

They are a secondary healer class, with damage potential.
Wed 29 Aug 2018 3:54 PM by Niix
I brought this up in another thread but I think its a decent idea to help out the struggling Hyrbids:

How about the idea that all self buffs stack with regular buffs (tune down the value if needed):

This would do two things:

1. Give back the benefit and original intent of self buffs to balance hybrids
2. Give more benefit and incentive for hybrids to group scene that everyone constantly complaining about

Paladins don't get a self buff but chants, but I think you could give them a self buff haste that stacks with regular haste (like a timer buff celerity). This could bring their damage in line with Arms as well some utility.
Thu 30 Aug 2018 1:47 PM by Kaziera
I think most hybrid classes are greatly designed but have been left behind in the patches.

For most hybrids like reaver, skald, vw or Champion det allready did the trick.

paladins and thanes are a great class by their intentional design. But their impact is just too low to be relevant. Just improve some of their tools and they are ready to shine. I did a comprehensive review on the state of the paladin in the albion forum by the way.

https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=10432#p10432

And then there is the friar. Its odd. The improved regen made the hot good, but still not suficient for rvr grps. Staff is still a solo thing. I think friar needs some aditional tool for the buff or the heal line to make it class that can be an active grp char
Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:34 PM by heardstheword
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 1:47 PM
paladins and thanes are a great class by their intentional design. But their impact is just too low to be relevant. Just improve some of their tools and they are ready to shine. I did a comprehensive review on the state of the paladin in the albion forum by the way.

Thanes can be a decent slam replacement over warrior. With Det changes, mezz isn't nearly as intense, and the go-to tank nullifier is a snare. If you snare a thane, they're still able to contribute to interupts and damage whereas a warrior is essentially useless until it's gone.
Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:50 PM by Kaziera
I agree, i still find thane dmg Potential too low to be any competition for warrior.
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:33 PM by Isavyr
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 2:50 PM
I agree, i still find thane dmg Potential too low to be any competition for warrior.

You can debuff Thane's damage. You cannot debuff warrior's damage. A thane isn't intended for every setup, but they have their place, and are a decent hybrid as is, imo. The warrior is chosen for his determination--different role. You cannot give the Thane full determination as that'd be broken with its ranged interrupts.

Their damage isn't a problem, either. While the warrior has higher sustain, the Thane has higher front-loaded burst. I really am not seeing the fault with Thanes you're referring to. I think it's a perception problem.

Regarding Paladins, I think I've already posted a very logical response to their problem--read the thread before posting (please?). You're welcome to disagree, but ignoring it and then posting an already-made point is counterproductive to the discussion.
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:38 PM by Kaziera
I read the thread, yet the opinion concerning paladin i posted above i didnt find.

I respect your opinion on warrior vs thane, but i dont share it. Imo thane, all things considered, is so subpar to warrior that it is, like here at the moment, not played.

Please try not to be condescending, when you encounter ppl that have a different opinion. Tyvm.
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:40 PM by Niix
I don’t really understand all the hate on friars, I think they are a perfect fit for a melee alb group:
Cleric - cleric - friar - Sorc - minst - merc - merc - arms

More well rounded group, peeler that can stop and cure disease and heal... what is wrong with that? Seems like a perfect fit. Only downside is peeler has no stuns... but peeler can heal which I mean can work just as well if they’re good
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:43 PM by Kaziera
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:40 PM
I don’t really understand all the hate on friars, I think they are a perfect fit for a melee alb group:
Cleric - cleric - friar - Sorc - minst - merc - merc - arms

More well rounded group, peeler that can stop and cure disease and heal... what is wrong with that? Seems like a perfect fit. Only downside is peeler has no stuns... but peeler can heal which I mean can work just as well if they’re good

Its opportunity cost. For evry role the friar can perform, you will find something better. Except resists. That i give you. But the total package is just not heavy enough to outperform an aditional light tank or dmg caster.
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:52 PM by Isavyr
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:38 PM
I read the thread, yet the opinion concerning paladin i posted above i didnt find.

I respect your opinion on warrior vs thane, but i dont share it. Imo thane, all things considered, is so subpar to warrior that it is, like here at the moment, not played.

Please try not to be condescending, when you encounter ppl that have a different opinion. Tyvm.
Well, that confirms what I suspected--that you didn't read the thread before posting. I'm not being condescending, I'm only criticizing--and criticism is warranted for ignoring previous points in favor of making your own. It's right here: https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1888&start=10#p10021

Some damage tests would be useful to support my argument on Thane vs Warrior damage. I'll see what I can generate later. If the Thane's melee damage is ~80% of warrior's, which I suspect it to be, it would appear balanced, as the Thane can push out two instant DDs on target during first-hit, generating a burst of over 200% the warrior's initial attack.
Thu 30 Aug 2018 4:11 PM by Niix
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:43 PM
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:40 PM
I don’t really understand all the hate on friars, I think they are a perfect fit for a melee alb group:
Cleric - cleric - friar - Sorc - minst - merc - merc - arms

More well rounded group, peeler that can stop and cure disease and heal... what is wrong with that? Seems like a perfect fit. Only downside is peeler has no stuns... but peeler can heal which I mean can work just as well if they’re good

Its opportunity cost. For evry role the friar can perform, you will find something better. Except resists. That i give you. But the total package is just not heavy enough to outperform an aditional light tank or dmg caster.

I think overall that group has a more well robust/balanced setup, that would be harder to fight against be it a caster group or tank group opponent. Hard to justify putting a friar in any type of caster group... just makes no sense cuz you extended all day and Arms superior peeler for that. Tank group is different, can fight much more in their face and bring more utility with friar than others (high rejuv heals includes group hot, side snare that is high duration, resists). I think the old thing really holding the friar back is they don't have a good unique RA that is beneficial for that role) .
Thu 30 Aug 2018 4:29 PM by Kaziera
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:52 PM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:38 PM
I read the thread, yet the opinion concerning paladin i posted above i didnt find.

I respect your opinion on warrior vs thane, but i dont share it. Imo thane, all things considered, is so subpar to warrior that it is, like here at the moment, not played.

Please try not to be condescending, when you encounter ppl that have a different opinion. Tyvm.
Well, that confirms what I suspected--that you didn't read the thread before posting. I'm not being condescending, I'm only criticizing--and criticism is warranted for ignoring previous points in favor of making your own. It's right here: https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1888&start=10#p10021

Some damage tests would be useful to support my argument on Thane vs Warrior damage. I'll see what I can generate later. If the Thane's melee damage is ~80% of warrior's, which I suspect it to be, it would appear balanced, as the Thane can push out two instant DDs on target during first-hit, generating a burst of over 200% the warrior's initial attack.

And again. I read exactly this post.

I guess i need to be more specific. I was implicitly referring to the paladin testing i linked in my post.

I dont want better det. I want their overall performance increased. And in my opinion the tweaks are more dmg from da, more heals from heal chant and a bit more dmg or weaponskill overall. I want paly to stay paly and not another armsman that can sparkle but cant spec pole.

Concerning thane, sorry i wont lvl another 50 on top of the 4 i have allready. But i really hope this discussion makes somebody perform another test like the one i did on paly.

Finally i accept that you dont want to be condescending. It just read like you wanted to be.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 12:52 AM by Niix
What are the problem classes? (Thane, friar, paladin, champ?)
Basically all those with particular problems are ones with self buffs, they were given those to help compensate with lower weapon skill and determination.

Just make the following stack with other spec buffs to bring their damage or utility up (nerf value if you have to):
Thane: strength/con
Champ: strength/con
Friar: dex/quick
Paladin: spec AF
Fri 31 Aug 2018 3:06 AM by Zansobar
Niix wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 12:52 AM
What are the problem classes? (Thane, friar, paladin, champ?)
Basically all those with particular problems are ones with self buffs, they were given those to help compensate with lower weapon skill and determination.

Just make the following stack with other spec buffs to bring their damage or utility up (nerf value if you have to):
Thane: strength/con
Champ: strength/con
Friar: dex/quick
Paladin: spec AF

I don't think this will help because some of those classes are already going to be hitting the 400 stat soft cap (Thane if Troll for sure) especially after speccing into aug str for the pre-reqs to other abilities, so the extra buffs in weapon skill stat won't help much at all. And if the +con amounted to much it might lead to these hybrids having more HP than the true tanks of the realms. The big problem is just that everyone else will be running with +155 buffs to the main stats ... the game would be much healthier if buffs were dropped from the main buffing classes and only self buffers remained.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 3:13 AM by Niix
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 3:06 AM
Niix wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 12:52 AM
What are the problem classes? (Thane, friar, paladin, champ?)
Basically all those with particular problems are ones with self buffs, they were given those to help compensate with lower weapon skill and determination.

Just make the following stack with other spec buffs to bring their damage or utility up (nerf value if you have to):
Thane: strength/con
Champ: strength/con
Friar: dex/quick
Paladin: spec AF

I don't think this will help because some of those classes are already going to be hitting the 400 stat soft cap (Thane if Troll for sure) especially after speccing into aug str for the pre-reqs to other abilities, so the extra buffs in weapon skill stat won't help much at all. And if the +con amounted to much it might lead to these hybrids having more HP than the true tanks of the realms. The big problem is just that everyone else will be running with +155 buffs to the main stats ... the game would be much healthier if buffs were dropped from the main buffing classes and only self buffers remained.

So let the buffs go over the cap? I mean the self buffs are useless AF in a proper group denying any of that utility... add on lack of CC reduction and poof they're not wanted. Interrupts can be managed if you just CC them forever.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 4:46 AM by Kaziera
Overcaps are not the way imo. They are a slippery slope towards toa.

Also increasing the selfbuff would have very divers effects. While it would make champs and thanes a lot stronger, paladin would almost gain nothing. Sure, even more tanky in pve, but totaly useless in pvp.

As i stated before its a opportunity cost vs performance issue. And that is best tackled by increasing the desired performance.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 1:36 PM by Isavyr
Hi Kaz,
I performed some testing. Here are the results:
Unbuffed Thane is 78% +/- 1% of warrior melee damage.
Self damage-add brings Thane to 93% of warrior melee damage.

Unloading the PBAOE/DD, which are on 20s timers, appeared to do about 1.22x of one Ragnarok style. This means that on initial attack, the thane would do about 200% of the warrior's damage, and would lessen over-time to about 110% of the warrior's damage (assuming no resists), and not decrease any more than 93% of the warrior's melee damage. This surprised me.

Actual RvR is a lot more complicated, though. There are situations the Thane cannot PBAOE (break mezzes), it gets its spells resisted, it pbaoe's beside target thereby decreasing the damage, or the group has damage add so the Thane's wouldn't self-boost their damage quite as much. But this test confirmed my original belief: Their damage is fine. They may not be the best for 8-man, but they have their place and their problem is primarily one of perception.

Also, all of the above was done without consideration for their str/con self-buff, which would generally be given in most groups. But it's still worth pointing out they have it as an option.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 1:48 PM by Kaziera
Dayum, we are really starting to get some quality in here. I will try to provide some testing and comparison of paly to armsman this weekend. No promisses though.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 12:02 AM by Pendalith
For the Thane perhaps opening more caster ra's, crit %, base dmg %, cast spd ect ^^
Sat 1 Sep 2018 12:58 AM by Magesty
An anecdotal blurb:

I had a level 50 dwarf Thane on Uthgard 2.0 and the class definitely isn’t as weak as everyone seems to think. They have slam and decent burst. The issue is they aren’t specialized. They will perform passably well in small man and solo here without changes. With NF ST and lag hammers they should be fine in keep defense/offense as well. Sure, 8mans might not be clamoring for them, but they aren’t in the dismal position Paladins are.

If my buddies weren’t set on playing Alb I’d be rolling one again.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 12:05 PM by rubaduck
I agree that paladins needs to be altered, and those who are replying "this is classic...." should in my opinion just leave because the devs have said time after time that this is not a classic server, but a server with 1.65 as a reference.

I agree that paladins should be reworked in the direction of a support / tank, but I don't have any clear ideas on how to fix them entirely, rather pack more and bigger responsabilities on them. I do know that giving them mez dampening is a very dangarous path to go as you will give him a very powerful tool to utilize in a tank setup with classes that can have DET RA and that can easily spin out of control. I would like to see paladins be able to provide heal to the group, and maybe go in the direction of how a warden work for hibs in terms of healing but don't give him any buffs other then his chants. The endurance chant is more or less redundant, which means the other chants can be either reworked completely to something different or change the number values.

One idea I have, would be to give one of his chants the effects of a tinderbox tick, however. The endurance and power regeneration only affects his group, but not the paladin him/herself. This chant replace the heal chant, and is applicable in combat, but drains a moderate amount of power. On a raw sketch this looks like a good idea to me, but this is also a very powerful idea that can turn in to an overpowered one if the scaling is wrong, but I believe it is a beginning in the right direction of a support paladin. This gives him a purpose for caster groups as well as tank groups as well as giving him purpose in pve groups.

The resistance chants suck. They are a waste of space on the quickbar and to make them more viable also needs to be trimmed down. Instead of having a single chant per element, one could have two chants and include 3 types of resistances in every chant. So Heat/Cold/Matter could be one, and Energy/Body/Spirit could be one. This would only make it a quality of life improvement as I doubt it will have a very big impact all together, other then being able to customize for the incoming battle in RVR or specific pve encounters.

The taunt is stupid, not because it is a taunt ability, but because it is missplaced. I would rather see Paladins have a smite ability (not going to go fully WoW lore retard here, I hate that game) as an instant DD instead of a taunt. I don't know if it is possible to rework it but it will sure give him some more oomph.

His offense will still be as before, but the player will probably rely more on switching between his peeling job and his support and healing. With a rejuv spec he also needs to think about how he wants to spend in offense. I have no ideas here really, but seeing as his offense sucked before I really doubt trying to make that better is the right path to go in the first place.

The rejuv spec would be spec only and no base heals as well as spec resurrection and cure poison and disease. So a spec small, great and group heal and a ress at 15 or 25.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 2:08 PM by Ganaka
My opinion doesn't help with the discussion, but.... I've always believed that the problem with the Paladin is that they made the Friar. Those two should be the same class. The Paladin has no ranged attack? and can't cast heal? He's a sitting duck/tank/? The Friar is a front-line fighter with melee abilities that chain off of evade, but they don't wear real armor? What? Those twists, on what should've been a single easy-to-create class, still don't make any sense to me,
Sun 2 Sep 2018 12:16 PM by phixion
I'm down for QoL changes and stuff but I check out when the discussion turns to adding abilities or even removing classes.

Paladins have their place in game. Yeah it sucks that they aren't included in the "perfect" 8 man setup, but they are absolutely viable if you allow them to be, and they're more than viable in a small man group.

They're great in PvE, nearly every group wants a Paladin.

We have Endurance pots for those too competitive to allow Paladins in to their groups.
Sun 2 Sep 2018 3:02 PM by Isavyr
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Sep 2018 12:05 PM
I agree that paladins needs to be altered, and those who are replying "this is classic...." should in my opinion just leave because the devs have said time after time that this is not a classic server, but a server with 1.65 as a reference.

I agree that paladins should be reworked in the direction of a support / tank, but I don't have any clear ideas on how to fix them entirely, rather pack more and bigger responsabilities on them. I do know that giving them mez dampening is a very dangarous path to go as you will give him a very powerful tool to utilize in a tank setup with classes that can have DET RA and that can easily spin out of control.

What? Spin out of control? With the 100 damage 2-handed hits? What exactly would spin out of control? Almost everything the paladin does via chanting is negligible, except for their endurance. Otherwise they are a sub-par tank with inferior damage and inferior hit points. I'm really curious what you think would be problematic in having full determination & stoicism--maybe you could spell it out.
Sun 2 Sep 2018 6:03 PM by Niix
Paladins have fantastic utility in the 2H style line.... they just hit like potatoes and have low hit points so no reason to add to group with regen pots available...

Fix either their low damage or low hit points and they will become more viable...
Can’t have a class with lower hits, lower damage and no stoicism and expect to put in geoup
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:19 AM by Pendalith
well the paladin taunt breaks speed now , that's a plus ^^
Mon 3 Sep 2018 8:54 AM by Kaziera
Did some dmg testing yesterday. Pala damage at rr3 isnt that bad. backstyle with pierce on Chain, 99% 4.5 2h, 44+13 2h, 37+13 1h, yellow spec and red base, max str and qui from Temp, hits for 220 with less than 2s swings. My slow weapons are not ready yet. Meh.

Its not the same as arms or merc. But not abysmal. A little more utility from chants and pala is good to go.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 9:48 AM by Ceen
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 8:54 AM
Did some dmg testing yesterday. Pala damage at rr3 isnt that bad. backstyle with pierce on Chain, 99% 4.5 2h, 44+13 2h, 37+13 1h, yellow spec and red base, max str and qui from Temp, hits for 220 with less than 2s swings. My slow weapons are not ready yet. Meh.

Its not the same as arms or merc. But not abysmal. A little more utility from chants and pala is good to go.

Mon 3 Sep 2018 10:09 AM by Kaziera
Whats so funny? 4.5 2h is only a bit slower than a 4.2 1h. 220 dmg mainhand from a merc would be nothing to sneeze at.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 2:34 PM by Niix
Can they allow i50 for paladin and thanes? I want to test things out
Mon 3 Sep 2018 2:59 PM by phixion
Niix wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 2:34 PM
Can they allow i50 for paladin and thanes? I want to test things out


Can they allow i50 for every class already?
Mon 3 Sep 2018 3:07 PM by Niix
phixion wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 2:59 PM
Niix wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 2:34 PM
Can they allow i50 for paladin and thanes? I want to test things out


Can they allow i50 for every class already?

But then who's going to lvl and test paladins and thanes? think about it.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 4:31 PM by Komaf
Thanes get groups while leveling due to taunt and a shield. They're a fun and probably stronger leveling tank than warrior. End game, with all the hitpoints and highest weaponskill table in the game (still correct on Phoenix?), it changes and it's 99% rvr then anyway and a smattering of dragon raids.

/check



Paladins should get every alb pve group period as the prime tank due to not just endo - but the heal chant aggro magnet. We always used to say that if you gave a chicken a heal chant, they'd hold aggro as well as a pally.

/check

Let's see as the OP stated, what end game looks like so maybe some though about making thanes/paladins/hybrids pvp valued starts to become a consideration.

Makes perfect sense - if i50 happens in segments, you'll start getting folks focusing on those segments, instead of everyone rolling an i-50 infiltrator/shadowblade, which is going to happen since getting groups in daoc as a rogue is painful at best - again, that whole what your class brings to the table viability thing that's supposed to be a big focus for our hopes with Phoenix.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:27 PM by Niix
Serious note here:

Thanes:
I think its fair to keep their weapon skill lower, they get spells and self dmg add.
I think its fair to keep them away from stoich
I don't think its fair they also have to suffer lower hit points, that alone would bring their viability up... in all honesty they should be the best peelers in mid, have all the tools warriors have, but also ability to ranged interrupt... if you gave them stoich, no one would run warriors.

Paladins:
I think its fair to keep their weapon skill lower, they get end and various chants that add benefit defensively
I think its fair to keep their hit points lower, they have insane high AF and heal chants
I think Paladins on the other hand should be considered a tank in terms of stoich, you are still not going to run more than one of them in any pvp group but giving them stoich and that would give them a niche spot in groups... may still not run one in a caster setup (just not enough spots in alb groups), but you would see them thrive in alb tank setups.

Champs:
I honestly don't know if people have a huge problem with Champs, they have never had the same complaints thane/paladins have due to their debuffs having significant benefit to justify one in group every now and then.
However, if anything they should get a HP buff because I still don't see any of them out (to be fair that might be due to the strength/utility of the BM right now).

Reavers:
Reavers with Det now bring enough to the table with their insane damage potential, not sure if they will field in groups much but they have their niche and adding any buffs would require nerfs to levi damage I would think.

Wardens:
Giving wardens det was a huge buff already, having a Det support class is pretty insane giving their utility in pbt. Feel like they have a place and are in a good spot atm.

Friars:
Haven't seen any friars out right now or much comments, I feel like they may need something... they are like wardens now, but pbt puts wardens way ahead of them in terms of viability. I think their main problem is just how hard it is to fit things into an alb setup, its almost like albion has one too many class options I would love to run a setup with friar though on peels: Cleric, Cleric, Minst, Friar, Sorc, Arms, Merc, Merc(or paladin if they had buffs).

In all honesty the name of the game is to bring up the class to a level they aren't laughed at and can contribute in groups... If you buff too much then you push other classes out of meta and the 'hardcores' will recognize that and adjust. There will always be a meta and its just about balancing that meta to give flexibility without driving a class to ridiculous OP status solo or group (ala minstrel).
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:48 PM by Kaziera
In terms of the state of hybrids i pretty much go along with the post above.

In terms of paladins, i would rather like to see their support role buffed. I still come from a RP point. Imo paladin is THE Knight in shiny armor, helping ppl in distress. Thus all supporting tools should be buffed. Cant help but promote heal chant again. Damage is imo actually not so bad.

You forgot the vw though.
Vw is imo in a strange place. Imo it is less played because of the high skill cap. Beeing heavily reliant on positional styles, it needs a player, that has not only a decent machine and connection, it also needs good timing. Not evrybody can deliver there. In the hands of a good player, vw can be devastating and dominate almost evry other class.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:59 PM by Niix
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:48 PM
You forgot the vw though.
Vw is imo in a strange place. Imo it is less played because of the high skill cap. Beeing heavily reliant on positional styles, it needs a player, that has not only a decent machine and connection, it also needs good timing. Not evrybody can deliver there. In the hands of a good player, vw can be devastating and dominate almost evry other class.

Right, should have mentioned VW too, but like Reaver I think they are in a good spot since getting Det... They have their niche and in right setups/hands are fantastic....
Tue 4 Sep 2018 2:37 AM by Takii
A decent machine and connection? This game is 17 years old .
Tue 4 Sep 2018 10:35 AM by schreon
I know that adding extra skills to classes has the potential of alienating people. However:

Simply giving the paladin the same instant and group instant heals the cleric has to the chanting specline might solve 2 issues at once:

1) Make paladin a unique def-tank
2) Make it viable for alb groups to run with 1 cleric and 1 heal-spec friar

In case this makes paladin a too OP solo character, optionally make one or both instant heals only work on group mates, but not himself.

What I like about this solution is that it would also help the friar indirectly.

As someone else stated before, I also believe Mythic should have chosen that support-tank route for paladin back then instead of making him an offensive zealot-like char with celerity etc.
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:31 AM by juhalanz
@Paladin : a casted single heal + a casted group heal like Official would be too anti classic/op?
Wed 5 Sep 2018 11:29 AM by Takii
I'm not sure a castable heal would make Paladins more desirable in either pve or rvr. In PvE you're tanking and can't cast it, in RvR it's probably not worth casting that heal unless you also give Paladins a fairly large mana pool. Stopping to cast heals is already problematic for friars and wardens but at least those classes bring resist buffs to the group (that aren't unreliable like chants).
Thu 6 Sep 2018 10:23 PM by Ganaka
Paladins have an instant group heal that costs 14 RP on a 30 minute timer?
Fri 7 Sep 2018 2:21 AM by Niix
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Sep 2018 10:23 PM
Paladins have an instant group heal that costs 14 RP on a 30 minute timer?

Sounds OP plz nerf

Paladins are a tank as much as savages are light tank ... they 100% should get stoich.

And lower RP cost of purge to tank level as well
Fri 7 Sep 2018 2:57 AM by Takii
I guess giving them Stoicism would be a fairly simple change with a predictable balance outcome... so probably safer than any of the other rather drastic measures suggested here (like straight up new abilities... which isn't something you just casually drop into a class in this game).
Fri 7 Sep 2018 7:33 AM by Niix
Takii wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Sep 2018 2:57 AM
I guess giving them Stoicism would be a fairly simple change with a predictable balance outcome... so probably safer than any of the other rather drastic measures suggested here (like straight up new abilities... which isn't something you just casually drop into a class in this game).

Who honestly is going to complain about paladins getting stoich? Prob just thanes, Vw, champ, reaver but paladins been in dumpster way longer than them... thanes are close, honestly they could get stoich too for all I care
Fri 7 Sep 2018 8:26 AM by yallia
Paladins sure need something.
There is a lot that could be done to help us find a place in RvR.

Stoic or purge to 5 is one.
50 poison/disease chant would be another.
Having all chants up with no need of twisting would be a nice upgrade and quality of life, although I have to admit I kinda like having to twist, it's part of the pal identity.
Celerity chant would be too op in my opinion and unfair to the rest.

(I'm not saying all of the above at once, but even just one of those choice would probably be enough to make us a bit more desirable)

Adding the castable heals would probably be useless, we don't have the Healing Effectiveness stat here, and without it + bad mana pool it's just not going to be worth it 99% of the time.
Fri 7 Sep 2018 8:30 AM by Ceen
Even with stoicism Paladin lacks imba armsman snare or reaver damage.
Pala = endu + heat / cold resist
With endu beeing useless its the resist chant only keeping the Paladin half way useful.
Fri 7 Sep 2018 1:16 PM by Kaziera
Snare wise paladin is quite usefull. Pierce is 27s even. 2h has back and sidesnare and slash side.

Its not snare itsself. Its not havin dmg, snare and slam at the same time.

And chants frankly dont have enough utility to make up for that. But they should!
Fri 7 Sep 2018 8:08 PM by Ganaka
Niix wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Sep 2018 2:21 AM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Sep 2018 10:23 PM
Paladins have an instant group heal that costs 14 RP on a 30 minute timer?

Sounds OP plz nerf

Paladins are a tank as much as savages are light tank ... they 100% should get stoich.

And lower RP cost of purge to tank level as well

Good points on stoicism and purge. Purge costs 4 RP for tanks, but 10 points for everyone else. Giving both to Paladibs wouldn't hurt balance at all, and as others have said, would have a predictable outcome.
Fri 7 Sep 2018 8:14 PM by Niix
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Sep 2018 8:08 PM
Niix wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Sep 2018 2:21 AM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Sep 2018 10:23 PM
Paladins have an instant group heal that costs 14 RP on a 30 minute timer?

Sounds OP plz nerf

Paladins are a tank as much as savages are light tank ... they 100% should get stoich.

And lower RP cost of purge to tank level as well

Good points on stoicism and purge. Purge costs 4 RP for tanks, but 10 points for everyone else. Giving both to Paladibs wouldn't hurt balance at all, and as others have said, would have a predictable outcome.

In all honesty low RP purge should only be available to Warrior, Hero, Arms and Paladin... no idea why light tanks get that and stoich (they have too many tools that heavy tanks have plus way more dps) *shrug*.

I think you could make the argument and fair point that Thane like Paladin suffers with same problems and should be classified in the same category as Tank... would help both those under-utilized classes. Doesn't help Friar, VW, Champ tho which are still in tougher spots.
Fri 7 Sep 2018 11:29 PM by Takii
I think Friars are quite good, they're just unfortunately in a realm where there's no room for them in a group. If they were in Mid or Hib I actually think you'd see them in RvR groups quite often (I'd take one over a VW or Champion any day).

VWs are a mess from a design POV and can't easily be fixed. Champions are literally bad Heroes with a single unique tool that is not that amazing and is already partly covered by Light or Mana elds.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 2:05 AM by Isavyr
The thane has a ranged rupt, and a repeatable cast DD. The paladin does not. The paladin was never intended as a ranged class. It was given a 1350 taunt later in classic in order to allow it to pull mobs, which only muddied the waters in terms of RvR balance.

In short, the thane is truly a magical hybrid because it was built as a half-way ranged class, whereas the paladin was not.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 3:27 AM by Ganaka
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Sep 2018 2:05 AM
The thane has a ranged rupt, and a repeatable cast DD. The paladin does not. The paladin was never intended as a ranged class. It was given a 1350 taunt later in classic in order to allow it to pull mobs, which only muddied the waters in terms of RvR balance.

In short, the thane is truly a magical hybrid because it was built as a half-way ranged class, whereas the paladin was not.

Great point.
Mon 10 Sep 2018 1:18 PM by Hedien
What is really conclusive to me of power and group finding easiness is the top RR of those classes :

BM :
23 > 5L,
9 > 6L,
3 > 7L,
2 > 8L

This looks like the most popular melee dps. Far across all 3 realms.

Now, let's look at outliers :
Paladin : 1 at 5L0
Thane : 1 5L1
Valewalker : 1 5L0, 1 7L0

Just to reinforce that these classes are not attractive enough at the moment and that this request for balance (love) is needed.

Grim
Tue 18 Sep 2018 11:53 AM by Hedien
Based on today's Discord discussion :
- Even if you give af spec stacking to a pal.
- Even if you give dual chant.
- Even if you give combined resist chant.

Pal will not be played over Arms.

Adding a new ability like direct heal or celerity alters 100% the class.

Currently the class has limited damage potential.
Currently the class is mostly used with a shield in pve for large encounters for it's significant aggro generation via chants.

What about we take the spirit of this class and make it viable with a shield and not as a main damage dealer, but more like a heal-less support class. Having the ability to significantly improve guard ability to make it Bodyguard like. I would have it on short duration with a timer, so that the game play is not : I become a bot for the rest of the fight.

Bodyguard in itself would make another gameplay / class less useless : ice wizard (which current role is limited to hugging door at keep def and spam pbaoe)

Hed / Grim
Tue 18 Sep 2018 12:20 PM by daocgod
These classes were shit at this level of DAoC, if you want better hybrids go play Ywain.
Tue 18 Sep 2018 12:22 PM by yallia
Stoicism and lower cost purge for paladins and thane would make them viable and way more wanted in group.

Not having those 2 are hurting them a lot, and I believe it's the main reason why nobody's playing them at the moment.
Tue 18 Sep 2018 10:37 PM by Kralin
yallia wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Sep 2018 12:22 PM
Stoicism and lower cost purge for paladins and thane would make them viable and way more wanted in group.

Not having those 2 are hurting them a lot, and I believe it's the main reason why nobody's playing them at the moment.

Well, uh, and the fact that you can use endurance potions. Remove the endo potions and the Paladin is needed in groups.
Wed 19 Sep 2018 1:36 AM by Takii
Kralin wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Sep 2018 10:37 PM
yallia wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Sep 2018 12:22 PM
Stoicism and lower cost purge for paladins and thane would make them viable and way more wanted in group.

Not having those 2 are hurting them a lot, and I believe it's the main reason why nobody's playing them at the moment.

Well, uh, and the fact that you can use endurance potions. Remove the endo potions and the Paladin is needed in groups.

Removing endo pots will also remove a significant portion of Albion's rvr population because it won't make Paladins more popular to the point where there are enough around to fill the gaps left by the removal of endo pots. More casual groups will be forced to go out without a pally and without endo, and they'll get facerolled twice and just log.
Wed 19 Sep 2018 2:42 PM by Kaziera
yallia wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Sep 2018 12:22 PM
Stoicism and lower cost purge for paladins and thane would make them viable and way more wanted in group.

Not having those 2 are hurting them a lot, and I believe it's the main reason why nobody's playing them at the moment.

I disagree here. Thane may be viable that way. You substitute melee dmg with cast dmg and can still have slam.
pala can eiter have slam or meleedamage. An the utility of the chants is not high enough to make him a Alternative to reaver merc and arms.
Wed 19 Sep 2018 3:09 PM by rubaduck
Hedien wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Sep 2018 11:53 AM
Based on today's Discord discussion :
- Even if you give af spec stacking to a pal.
- Even if you give dual chant.
- Even if you give combined resist chant.

Pal will not be played over Arms.

Adding a new ability like direct heal or celerity alters 100% the class.

Currently the class has limited damage potential.
Currently the class is mostly used with a shield in pve for large encounters for it's significant aggro generation via chants.

What about we take the spirit of this class and make it viable with a shield and not as a main damage dealer, but more like a heal-less support class. Having the ability to significantly improve guard ability to make it Bodyguard like. I would have it on short duration with a timer, so that the game play is not : I become a bot for the rest of the fight.

Bodyguard in itself would make another gameplay / class less useless : ice wizard (which current role is limited to hugging door at keep def and spam pbaoe)

Hed / Grim

For paladins to be viable to play as a pvp character it needs to be overhauled. Nothing in it's kit is attractive, not even endurance (yeah yeah blame pots if you want). The devs need to take it's concept and remake it, with the vision Mythic had for it. It is a dead class, because it is a terrible one
Wed 19 Sep 2018 11:05 PM by yallia
Paladin is not about the endo chant, it seems like its the only thing you remember about the class but its not.

A good pal will mitigate a lot of damage on your group, be it with AF chant, heal chant (yeah sure its not much, but it still add up) and resist chant. They are great peelers and the fact most people see them as useless also works at their advantage atm.

Not having stoicism and / or the cheap purge hurts them to much because against any decent group you'll just spend way to much time cc'd, unable to peel, while the ennemies tank will most likely not have this issue.

I believe if they did had it, I'd look for a pala as a peeler over any arms / merc in any caster group I'd be.
Thu 20 Sep 2018 12:04 AM by Takii
yallia wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 11:05 PM
Paladin is not about the endo chant, it seems like its the only thing you remember about the class but its not.

A good pal will mitigate a lot of damage on your group, be it with AF chant, heal chant (yeah sure its not much, but it still add up) and resist chant. They are great peelers and the fact most people see them as useless also works at their advantage atm.

Not having stoicism and / or the cheap purge hurts them to much because against any decent group you'll just spend way to much time cc'd, unable to peel, while the ennemies tank will most likely not have this issue.

I believe if they did had it, I'd look for a pala as a peeler over any arms / merc in any caster group I'd be.

I'm not sure how you can make that argument. In literally every situation, Arms and Mercs have better peeling tools than Paladins. Not only do Arms and Mercs have ALL of the peeling tools the Paladin has (which is only Slam and positional styles), they also have better versions (anytime polearm snare) or additional ones (Prevent Flight and Dirty Tricks).
Thu 20 Sep 2018 5:11 AM by Amroth
All i know is thane's need some love because right now they're still hot garbage.
Thu 20 Sep 2018 3:48 PM by inoeth
imo giving thanes the cast upgrade ( 1750 range single DD, energy debuff, doomhammer) and add passive casting ras could make them a great peel/caster class.
back in thge days when mythic published that upgrade, it came with style DDs thus i do not recommend to bring them here also i really liked that, i still wthink it would be too powerful here... or at least bring a nerfed version of that.
Wed 26 Sep 2018 2:31 AM by yallia
Takii wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Sep 2018 12:04 AM
yallia wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 11:05 PM
Paladin is not about the endo chant, it seems like its the only thing you remember about the class but its not.

A good pal will mitigate a lot of damage on your group, be it with AF chant, heal chant (yeah sure its not much, but it still add up) and resist chant. They are great peelers and the fact most people see them as useless also works at their advantage atm.

Not having stoicism and / or the cheap purge hurts them to much because against any decent group you'll just spend way to much time cc'd, unable to peel, while the ennemies tank will most likely not have this issue.

I believe if they did had it, I'd look for a pala as a peeler over any arms / merc in any caster group I'd be.

I'm not sure how you can make that argument. In literally every situation, Arms and Mercs have better peeling tools than Paladins. Not only do Arms and Mercs have ALL of the peeling tools the Paladin has (which is only Slam and positional styles), they also have better versions (anytime polearm snare) or additional ones (Prevent Flight and Dirty Tricks).

Simple to make that argument really. 42 shield 39 2H pal are snaring machines, with access to side, rear snares and an anytime followup, which I don't know why you would use but its there. As long as the pal understand he's not supposed to swing a 6.0 apoc you've a great peeler.

You make it sound like having only positionnal snares is bad, but they are very easy to land, specially when you have both side & rear options, that basically what ? 320° of a character you can snare from ? Specially when most of ennemies tank will be desperate to go rupt your casters, easy peasy.

Casters are squishy by nature, which they in turn compensate by the amount of burst they can provide with a couple of assists / debuff. I do believe that added resists, added AF, and even the heal chant are all tools that would be more beneficial to a true caster group than a slitghly better peeler. If you start throwing the utility RAs like hmmmm a group instant heal, yeah I'd really take a pal over an arms.

But in the end, it's just personnal preferences, I'm not saying arms are bad, just that this would make more sense to me ; provided that pal had cheap purge & stoicism. Because without that they just get out cc'd and that window of time where ennemies tank move while they don't just hurts to much and make them pretty much useless.
Mon 1 Oct 2018 5:00 AM by teiloh
Itemization is also plays a significant part in making life difficult for hybrids.

Maybe we could see things like +all skills period (rather than melee or caster only), +All Stats, etc.

+All Stats for example would be nice for most classes but would be an extra boost to hybrid classes that badly some more in Acuity, Strength and Dex
Mon 1 Oct 2018 10:16 PM by vulna
With the way ROGs are handled on this server, you won't have any trouble temping hybrids.
Tue 2 Oct 2018 5:13 AM by Kaziera
yallia wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 2:31 AM
Takii wrote: ↑
Thu 20 Sep 2018 12:04 AM
yallia wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 11:05 PM
Paladin is not about the endo chant, it seems like its the only thing you remember about the class but its not.

A good pal will mitigate a lot of damage on your group, be it with AF chant, heal chant (yeah sure its not much, but it still add up) and resist chant. They are great peelers and the fact most people see them as useless also works at their advantage atm.

Not having stoicism and / or the cheap purge hurts them to much because against any decent group you'll just spend way to much time cc'd, unable to peel, while the ennemies tank will most likely not have this issue.

I believe if they did had it, I'd look for a pala as a peeler over any arms / merc in any caster group I'd be.

I'm not sure how you can make that argument. In literally every situation, Arms and Mercs have better peeling tools than Paladins. Not only do Arms and Mercs have ALL of the peeling tools the Paladin has (which is only Slam and positional styles), they also have better versions (anytime polearm snare) or additional ones (Prevent Flight and Dirty Tricks).

Simple to make that argument really. 42 shield 39 2H pal are snaring machines, with access to side, rear snares and an anytime followup, which I don't know why you would use but its there. As long as the pal understand he's not supposed to swing a 6.0 apoc you've a great peeler.

You make it sound like having only positionnal snares is bad, but they are very easy to land, specially when you have both side & rear options, that basically what ? 320° of a character you can snare from ? Specially when most of ennemies tank will be desperate to go rupt your casters, easy peasy.

Casters are squishy by nature, which they in turn compensate by the amount of burst they can provide with a couple of assists / debuff. I do believe that added resists, added AF, and even the heal chant are all tools that would be more beneficial to a true caster group than a slitghly better peeler. If you start throwing the utility RAs like hmmmm a group instant heal, yeah I'd really take a pal over an arms.

But in the end, it's just personnal preferences, I'm not saying arms are bad, just that this would make more sense to me ; provided that pal had cheap purge & stoicism. Because without that they just get out cc'd and that window of time where ennemies tank move while they don't just hurts to much and make them pretty much useless.

You talk a lot here, but you just describe a 2nd way for the same problem.

Which is, that paladin cant peel while dealing dmg, while im the same moment, the peeling quality drops.

Evry spec that has 42 Shield and 39 2h will lack damage aswell as guarding capacity.

You will also need to spec 21 int slash to gain access to sidesnare. Otherwise you cant snare with shield out.


The dmg will hit around 140 at 2h swings. Thats less than e arms with 1h. And you will lack the pole spec and styles.

And then you have about enough points to spec into chants for red endo. While you drop da, heal and af chant to yellow. Which makes bad chants even worse Chats which cost so much endo that they are not worth to press.

Granted, you have one more stye (1h side, 2h side, 2h rear) than arms. But you dont need that. Arms has 1h side, pole rear. While you guard, 1h side is perfect. And when your protected target got away, you just tail that enemy tank and kill him in 5 styles.

And thats what the problem is. Not beeing able to peel. Its beeing able to peel and deal damage at the same time. This is so much easier. An enemy offtank beeing in the mid of your grp thats allready under pressure drops so easy and compromises the enemy healers soooo hard, its just not worth to give this up for chants!
Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:22 AM by faliv
Only problem will be endu in albion pve because noone will play a paladin.

So maybe give arms the enduchant in the shieldline and let him loose the chant when hitting 50. So there should be enough endu available during the leveling time.

Otherweise hybrids are fine. It is impossible to make every class usefull at the same time on the same level. There will be always stronger and weaker classes. If you only pick the optimal classes, it is, was and will be a nobrainer under every patchlevel. You can compete with every hybrid in your group just fine, just not on the highest level. But honestly, 99% don´t play on that level anyways, so who cares?

If you choose a hybrid, you know what you are picking.
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:08 AM by Kaziera
faliv wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:22 AM
Only problem will be endu in albion pve because noone will play a paladin.

So maybe give arms the enduchant in the shieldline and let him loose the chant when hitting 50. So there should be enough endu available during the leveling time.

Otherweise hybrids are fine. It is impossible to make every class usefull at the same time on the same level. There will be always stronger and weaker classes. If you only pick the optimal classes, it is, was and will be a nobrainer under every patchlevel. You can compete with every hybrid in your group just fine, just not on the highest level. But honestly, 99% don´t play on that level anyways, so who cares?

If you choose a hybrid, you know what you are picking.

Which leads to some classes not beeing played at all. At the moment, i see only one paladin around that is beeing played active in rvr. And thats me. And i only do it because i like the style of the class and because want to promote paladin beeing buffed. So i need to play it so i know what im talking about. When server goes live, i will not touch paly when its in its current state.

Just look at the topic. This is not the idc-thread. We are trying to find balanced and meaningfull ways to bring those underplayed hybrids back into the meta. So please take part or be gone.
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:30 AM by faliv
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:08 AM
faliv wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:22 AM
Only problem will be endu in albion pve because noone will play a paladin.

So maybe give arms the enduchant in the shieldline and let him loose the chant when hitting 50. So there should be enough endu available during the leveling time.

Otherweise hybrids are fine. It is impossible to make every class usefull at the same time on the same level. There will be always stronger and weaker classes. If you only pick the optimal classes, it is, was and will be a nobrainer under every patchlevel. You can compete with every hybrid in your group just fine, just not on the highest level. But honestly, 99% don´t play on that level anyways, so who cares?

If you choose a hybrid, you know what you are picking.

Which leads to some classes not beeing played at all. At the moment, i see only one paladin around that is beeing played active in rvr. And thats me. And i only do it because i like the style of the class and because want to promote paladin beeing buffed. So i need to play it so i know what im talking about. When server goes live, i will not touch paly when its in its current state.

Just look at the topic. This is not the idc-thread. We are trying to find balanced and meaningfull ways to bring those underplayed hybrids back into the meta. So please take part or be gone.

If you bring back underplayed hybrids into the meta then other classes are shifted out of the meta and we will have a new thread "ways to bring back xy". Yes, paladins outside of pve are pretty useless compared to an arms. if you buff them to be more usefull then an arms, then noone will play a friking arms, like it was on live for years. there will never be a perfect balance, regardless if you spam 4234234 pages like 234536456435 people in the history of daoc have done before.

hint: even in the current state you do not automaticly loose if you group a hybrid. some of them like valewalkers or reavers are doing pretty fine, others are surely not optimal, but still playable.

so i can not see the need of the 53453456 "my class needs a buff111" thread. so i suggest (according to the board-category): leave it as it is and tweak endu for alb pve. otherweise we will have the same thread with other classes and so on. and now i leave you alone with your paper daoc, hf.
Tue 2 Oct 2018 8:51 AM by Kaziera
faliv wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:30 AM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:08 AM
faliv wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:22 AM
Only problem will be endu in albion pve because noone will play a paladin.

So maybe give arms the enduchant in the shieldline and let him loose the chant when hitting 50. So there should be enough endu available during the leveling time.

Otherweise hybrids are fine. It is impossible to make every class usefull at the same time on the same level. There will be always stronger and weaker classes. If you only pick the optimal classes, it is, was and will be a nobrainer under every patchlevel. You can compete with every hybrid in your group just fine, just not on the highest level. But honestly, 99% don´t play on that level anyways, so who cares?

If you choose a hybrid, you know what you are picking.

Which leads to some classes not beeing played at all. At the moment, i see only one paladin around that is beeing played active in rvr. And thats me. And i only do it because i like the style of the class and because want to promote paladin beeing buffed. So i need to play it so i know what im talking about. When server goes live, i will not touch paly when its in its current state.

Just look at the topic. This is not the idc-thread. We are trying to find balanced and meaningfull ways to bring those underplayed hybrids back into the meta. So please take part or be gone.

If you bring back underplayed hybrids into the meta then other classes are shifted out of the meta and we will have a new thread "ways to bring back xy". Yes, paladins outside of pve are pretty useless compared to an arms. if you buff them to be more usefull then an arms, then noone will play a friking arms, like it was on live for years. there will never be a perfect balance, regardless if you spam 4234234 pages like 234536456435 people in the history of daoc have done before.

hint: even in the current state you do not automaticly loose if you group a hybrid. some of them like valewalkers or reavers are doing pretty fine, others are surely not optimal, but still playable.

so i can not see the need of the 53453456 "my class needs a buff111" thread. so i suggest (according to the board-category): leave it as it is and tweak endu for alb pve. otherweise we will have the same thread with other classes and so on. and now i leave you alone with your paper daoc, hf.

Nobody wanty to bring paladin above arms. No clue why u assume that. The intention here is, and i quote myself, to bring all underused hybrids back into the meta. Not above.

And yes, you are correct, this thread is paper daoc. Which a lot of ppls, according to the 9 pages, want to come true. So please spare us the condescending (53453456 "my class needs a buff111" atitude. Tyvm.
Tue 2 Oct 2018 9:38 AM by inoeth
faliv wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:30 AM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:08 AM
faliv wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 6:22 AM
Only problem will be endu in albion pve because noone will play a paladin.

So maybe give arms the enduchant in the shieldline and let him loose the chant when hitting 50. So there should be enough endu available during the leveling time.

Otherweise hybrids are fine. It is impossible to make every class usefull at the same time on the same level. There will be always stronger and weaker classes. If you only pick the optimal classes, it is, was and will be a nobrainer under every patchlevel. You can compete with every hybrid in your group just fine, just not on the highest level. But honestly, 99% don´t play on that level anyways, so who cares?

If you choose a hybrid, you know what you are picking.

Which leads to some classes not beeing played at all. At the moment, i see only one paladin around that is beeing played active in rvr. And thats me. And i only do it because i like the style of the class and because want to promote paladin beeing buffed. So i need to play it so i know what im talking about. When server goes live, i will not touch paly when its in its current state.

Just look at the topic. This is not the idc-thread. We are trying to find balanced and meaningfull ways to bring those underplayed hybrids back into the meta. So please take part or be gone.

If you bring back underplayed hybrids into the meta then other classes are shifted out of the meta and we will have a new thread "ways to bring back xy". Yes, paladins outside of pve are pretty useless compared to an arms. if you buff them to be more usefull then an arms, then noone will play a friking arms, like it was on live for years. there will never be a perfect balance, regardless if you spam 4234234 pages like 234536456435 people in the history of daoc have done before.

hint: even in the current state you do not automaticly loose if you group a hybrid. some of them like valewalkers or reavers are doing pretty fine, others are surely not optimal, but still playable.

so i can not see the need of the 53453456 "my class needs a buff111" thread. so i suggest (according to the board-category): leave it as it is and tweak endu for alb pve. otherweise we will have the same thread with other classes and so on. and now i leave you alone with your paper daoc, hf.

you brought the best argument for buffing hybrids yourself lol... speaking about VW and reaver, they do alot of dmg but still do not kick others classes out of the "meta" whatever that means in daoc anyway.
it is all about bringing more options and diversity into the game and make all the classes at least playable. it is not an easy task i know and that is why this thread is for, to generate ideas how to buff hybrids in a balanced way.

ot: im not sure if style procs for thanes are the way to go even thou i really like to see them, but in classic setting they are really overpowered imo. look at reavers^^
maybe bring them in a weaker version or in a combo chain. also i really like to see the option to spec caster ras and bring the caster update for thanes.
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:00 PM by Exploder
Paladin: I've been playing a paladin for the past few days and it is incredibly weak. Due to dual wield halving block chance, it is impossible to be a defensive stalwart which is what the class is designed to be. Matched with ineffective chants (hello, heal chant), way too many buttons to mash, and low weapon skill, the class flounders in every aspect of the game.

Improvements: First off, I'll start by saying I am not asking for all of these changes. These are just some ways to improve the class.
1) Heal chant. Increase the heal by 50%. A 40-45 point heal isn't going to mitigate anything. A 50% increase should give it the feel that it is actually doing something without being game breaking. Also consider making heal chant usable out of combat.
2) Decrease the dual wield penalty to shields. Now this could vary by shield size to make larger shields more useful (ex. small 50% - med 35% - lg 20%). This would make me, as a paladin, feel like I can defend myself from 80% of the melee classes out there currently and not just be a pincushion.
3) Increase weapon skill. Upgrade it by 1 tier. The combination of being unable to hit anything (dodger lol), poor damage, and bad defense makes it impossible to be effective in any form.
4) Dual chants. Paladin chants are so incredibly clunky. This would just be a quality of life improvement.
5) Nerf endurance pots. Limit to end 2. Why even run a paladin in PvE/RvR when you can just buy an endurance potion that is just as effective? Anything over end 3 in most cases is unnecessary.
6) Remove endurance cost to chants/reduce power cost of endurance chant: Both really just quality of life changes.
7) Make it so chants don't drop when incapacitated.

"Fun"/Custom Additions:
I'm not a fan of adding anything custom, but if you do it needs to fit the class thematically. I'd much rather have the above 7 be changed over anything in this section as these are off the cuff.
1) Holy Nova. Yes, this is a rip off of WoW, but it fits the class. A PBAOE heal/dd similar to the cleric pbaoe shout.
2) Pairing Chants. Idea being you could only run 2 chants at a time with a global cooldown of 5-8 seconds. Depending on the pairing, it would give you a bonus of some sort. i.e. dmg add+heal = adds a heal proc, af+resists = melee/magic ablative, etc. To me this feels WAY too custom, but it would remove twisting and also make chants more engaging.

Do NOT add:
1) Celerity. This only goes to Mid. Don't add it to Paladin's just because they are weak.
2) Speed. They don't need a speed chant nor does it fit thematically.
3) Divine Shield. I haven't actually read anything in this thread for a little while, but I do remember Divine Shield in some form being mentioned either in this thread or another. Please don't. Incredibly broken mechanic.

Thane: I haven't had the chance to test, so I can only speak from what I saw on Uthgard and what I've read on the boards. During my brief stay on Uthgard 2.0, I did have a thane in my duo/trio (skald/thane/shaman). From what I could tell, he had exceptional burst and solid damage overall. Insta DD's and a castable DD also made him far more useful to me than a Warrior ever could be. However, from what I've been reading on the forums they do not sound the same here. I would personally have to do some tests or see actual numbers from someone else.

Do NOT add:
Live proc styles. Mythic/EA's approach to fixing a broken class was, "Okay, give it a proc style." This is easily the most lazy change from a bunch of developers that had no foresight. For having a test server it's amazing what passed through to live.

Champion: Haven't tested them at all, but I imagine they could use some help. Some of the suggestions I've read (debuff recast time) seem fair to me and could possibly give them a role in 8 mans. Might have to pair it with something else.

Reaver: Not having the new Leviathan/Unquenchable Thirst of Souls animation makes this class unplayable. Other than that, they are fine.

Warden: I haven't played a Warden on this server, but my experience tells me that:
1) They do no damage.
2) They have no shield so defense solely relies on PBT and parry.
3) Are not widely accepted in groups as they don't have a clear role. If they spec regrowth, why not just get another druid? If they spec melee, they do next to no damage so could never be on a tank train. They could potentially be a peel (snare) bot, but why not just have a Hero who gets slam, guard, and snare?

To me, this means you need to improve their small man/solo capability.
Steps to do that:
1) Add the Shield line. I believe I read somewhere the devs have no plans in adding shield to Warden's, but they need something to feel a bit more viable. PBT and a small amount of parry isn't enough to be effective as a fighter. This would be really the only change you could do to make them useful in 8 mans.
2) Add more spec points. This is a given if paired with the Shield line. If that is not going to happen, they still need a bit more. This would allow them to put more points into parry without sacrificing too much regrowth or weapon spec.
3) Increase weaponskill. Similar to Paladin's, increase it by 1 tier. Due to low weaponskill, they continuously fire reactionary styles off of assassins (primarily who they will be fighting if they solo) and as a whole struggle to penetrate any form of defense. This would also somewhat alleviate their damage woes.

Friar: I have a lot of experience playing this class on Lamorak/classic cluster. Friar's suffer from a few different things.
1) Buff potions. The class is balanced around the fact that it has access to buffs while others don't. The minute you bridge that gap, friar's become exponentially weaker.
2) Useless styles. They have limited access to a stun, and have probably the worst level 50 style (off-parry, no special effect) in the game. And probably the most useless style of all time (Holy Staff).

Ways to improve Friar's:
Before I start listing changes, everyone needs to accept they are not an 8 man class. The character needs buffs to give them an advantage over someone that is unbuffed. Fighting others that have comparable buffs just exposes Friar's no matter what you do, aside from a complete overhaul of the class.

1) Add a few Heal styles. Do not fully implement them the way they are on Live. Adopt only the live version of "Holy Staff" to make it a viable style. You can nerf the heal over time slightly if need be. Also a couple other styles should have some minor heal effect on it.
2) Excommunicate needs to be changed. An off-parry, level 50 style that has literally no effect on it is just downright pathetic. Add a stun to it so there is a point in specializing 50 staff.
3) Make dex a primary or secondary attribute. If primary is too much, then do secondary. This is just a quality of life change that always bugged me.
4) Remove/nerf buff potions. Polarizing topic, but it is something to be considered. Wouldn't really be as necessary if you improve their styles.

A combination of these changes would suffice. Since they are awful in an 8 man, they need to fill the niche of being an above average solo/small man class. Being below average to average as they are now isn't good enough.

I would also add smite clerics and nature druids to this list. They could really use some love.
Tue 2 Oct 2018 9:58 PM by Takii
Decreasing the dual wield bonus against shields just to help Paladins is like using a cannon to shoot down a mosquito... Cmon, that would have huge repercussions on a bunch of other classes.
Tue 2 Oct 2018 10:16 PM by yallia
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 5:13 AM
You talk a lot here, but you just describe a 2nd way for the same problem.

Which is, that paladin cant peel while dealing dmg, while im the same moment, the peeling quality drops.

Evry spec that has 42 Shield and 39 2h will lack damage aswell as guarding capacity.

You will also need to spec 21 int slash to gain access to sidesnare. Otherwise you cant snare with shield out.


The dmg will hit around 140 at 2h swings. Thats less than e arms with 1h. And you will lack the pole spec and styles.

And then you have about enough points to spec into chants for red endo. While you drop da, heal and af chant to yellow. Which makes bad chants even worse Chats which cost so much endo that they are not worth to press.

Granted, you have one more stye (1h side, 2h side, 2h rear) than arms. But you dont need that. Arms has 1h side, pole rear. While you guard, 1h side is perfect. And when your protected target got away, you just tail that enemy tank and kill him in 5 styles.

And thats what the problem is. Not beeing able to peel. Its beeing able to peel and deal damage at the same time. This is so much easier. An enemy offtank beeing in the mid of your grp thats allready under pressure drops so easy and compromises the enemy healers soooo hard, its just not worth to give this up for chants!

Well I have no idea how you worked your build out, but you can actually go :
42 shields, 21 slash, 39 2H, 48 chants so I don't know where you get that you lose on chants ?

You also say "Evry spec that has 42 Shield and 39 2h will lack damage aswell as guarding capacity. " I have legit no idea what you mean. Do you think mercs and arms go 50 shield ? Pretty sure they don't, or at the very least, almost none of them do.

I think you get overfixated on the idea of not doing enough damage compared to an arms.
In a caster group, it is not the arms damage while peeling that will make or break the fight. As the name suggest, it's the casters that will put the pressure and actually kill targets. In order to do so they have to 1° be alive 2° be properly peeled. I've already showed to you how paladin is as good as a peeler than an arms, now for the staying alive part, the chants do provide extra survivability.

You try to give an exemple of why the damage of an arms is important and makes it better than the paladin : "Granted, you have one more stye (1h side, 2h side, 2h rear) than arms. But you dont need that. Arms has 1h side, pole rear. While you guard, 1h side is perfect. And when your protected target got away, you just tail that enemy tank and kill him in 5 styles."

Alright so let me try to understand your exemple. Assuming we are still talking about a caster group. So you peeled a tank from one of your caster, he got away to safety, so you, the armsman, switch to the polearm to kill him in 5 styles.

Case n°1 : he's the only tank in the ennemy team, pushing.
Your casters are somehow kiting back (since you just peeled the guy), so in 9/10 cases he's going to be the main target for your group since he's the one pushing the most.
Since you are staying on the target with your cool polearm, I'm assuming the rest of your casters don't need peeling, otherwise why would you be trying to deal damage instead of going to peel for them.
At this point, your 5 styles don't make any sense to me. The casters are going to shred him, regardless of if you hit for 300 with your polearm, or 130 with your greatsword.

Case n°2 : he's the only tank in the ennemy team, but not really pushing. Their entire group is onto you, somehow. Which means your casters won't be able to do a proper assist.
So again, you properly peeled the one tank they have, but your team can't kill anything because their is to much interruptions going on and not enough distance created.
Well again, in this case, why would you, as a support for your casters, want to go polearm and try to solo kill the 1 tank ? If your casters are being disrupted and need to create distance there is a lot more important things to do, go rupt a couple casters before going back to snare the tank for exemple.

Case n°3 : they have multiple tanks. Only one was pushing somehow and you just peeled him.
Best guess is that the other tanks are coming for your casters (not sure why they are not going on them already but whatever). Do you think the ideal course of option in such a situation is to switch to your polearm, and try to "5-style kill" the one tank that is not a threat atm ? Or actually go and intercept the other tanks before they get onto your casters ?


Okay I understand this is all hypothetical but your exemple just didn't make any sense. Sure it looked cool when you said it "hey I peeled now I can also kill". But it'll pretty much never actually happen.

The problem of the paladin as a peeler IN A CASTER GROUP it not the lack of damage. It's the fact that because of no stoi, and to some extent higher costing purge, he'll get out cc'd compared to all the meta tanks. The extra seconds lost on that root / mezz are crucial in being able to intercept or not the tanks before they are able to disrupt your casters in a critical way. And THAT is what will make or break the fight. Not the occasional 130dmg difference every XX seconds on a backsnare.

To end this, in another one of your posts, you said you were the only active paladin in RvR, so I don't know if Herald is bugged or not, but my paladin has been sitting at 5L / #1 and I haven't played her in like, a month ? Considering how fast the rps are going up, you probably are not that active in rvr with your paly after all.
Tue 2 Oct 2018 11:50 PM by Exploder
Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 9:58 PM
Decreasing the dual wield bonus against shields just to help Paladins is like using a cannon to shoot down a mosquito... Cmon, that would have huge repercussions on a bunch of other classes.

Yeah, of course it would. The point is the dual wielding bonus is way too high and makes using a shield feel like it's only for slam. I'd fully expect them to drop it for dual wield vs. evade, 2h vs. parry, etc.

I'm sorry, but having a 20% chance to block against an assassin/light tank with 42+x shield is a joke.
Wed 3 Oct 2018 5:25 AM by Kaziera
At the moment im playing my paly in a 2h only solo build. Trying a different spec while waiting for i50 to do a extensive testing at higher rr. You are correct, im not playing much. But whenever i play any one of my chars, i NEVER see a paly out.

I guess i didnt conclude my point so i came across unclear. I dont want paly to deal the same dmg as arms. That would ne not realistic. Im fine with the dmg as it is. I was stating that paly is lacking that ability to deal dmg while peeling. Also you are correct that paly suffers from lack of stoic and from higher costs for purge. I didnt mention that. Also your 3 examples describe situations in rvr quite correclty. But what you neglect, is, that those 400 dmg per peeling style put a pressure on the enemy heals that you shouldnt ignore or your offtank becomes a liability. And to make paly a peeler of the same quality, something has to make up for that. And again. I dont want dmg. I want viability. Which that is, is open for discussion here.

I personaly vote for better chants. But they have to go a long way to compensate the lack of dmg, stoic, hp and arms or merc RA. Or to complete the shield tanks, reaver dmg and rupt.
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:14 AM by rubaduck
Exploder wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:00 PM
Paladin: I've been playing a paladin for the past few days and it is incredibly weak. Due to dual wield halving block chance, it is impossible to be a defensive stalwart which is what the class is designed to be. Matched with ineffective chants (hello, heal chant), way too many buttons to mash, and low weapon skill, the class flounders in every aspect of the game.

They have always been incredible weak. Paladins are the result of poor game design, and lack of a specific role. They are tanks like armsman, wield two handers and shields like armsman but they have chants. Their WS is lower because they are not armsman. Their defensive capeabilities are among the highest in the game. Plate, shield weilder, self AF buff and (this hurts to say) a spec AF chant. Cutting down on core shield mechanics just to buff one class against DW classes is not the way to go. It has a low weaponskill compared to Armsman because it is not an armsman. Giving them more damage, makes them compete with that class, something which is more devestating. Paladin players need to question themselves: do I want to do damage? Go armsman. Do I want to be a hybrid peeler / support? Go Paladin.
The chants are their selling point, and should be the focus when they begin to balance classes.

Exploder wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:00 PM
Improvements: First off, I'll start by saying I am not asking for all of these changes. These are just some ways to improve the class.
1) Heal chant. Increase the heal by 50%. A 40-45 point heal isn't going to mitigate anything. A 50% increase should give it the feel that it is actually doing something without being game breaking. Also consider making heal chant usable out of combat.
2) Decrease the dual wield penalty to shields. Now this could vary by shield size to make larger shields more useful (ex. small 50% - med 35% - lg 20%). This would make me, as a paladin, feel like I can defend myself from 80% of the melee classes out there currently and not just be a pincushion.
3) Increase weapon skill. Upgrade it by 1 tier. The combination of being unable to hit anything (dodger lol), poor damage, and bad defense makes it impossible to be effective in any form.
4) Dual chants. Paladin chants are so incredibly clunky. This would just be a quality of life improvement.
5) Nerf endurance pots. Limit to end 2. Why even run a paladin in PvE/RvR when you can just buy an endurance potion that is just as effective? Anything over end 3 in most cases is unnecessary.
6) Remove endurance cost to chants/reduce power cost of endurance chant: Both really just quality of life changes.
7) Make it so chants don't drop when incapacitated.

1) Completely agree. The heal chant needs to make an impact no questions about it. An increase between 50 and 75% should be tested during i50

2) Again, don't ruin a mechanic just to give more defensive play. Also, this would mean that heavy/light tanks would have to golfbag shields.

3) Paladins are difficult to balance, they have extremely many defensive utilities and they can't be at the level of an armsman. This is where fine tuning will have to be done during i50.

4) Nop, it makes imbalance between the other song/chanters. This will not fix the pally, but it will sure as hell make hib and mid stronger.

5) This argument is stupid, no offense. Endo 3 has been in the game for a long time given at a higher level of alchemy in this patch but still. And it is the same on both hib and mid too. If this was the real issue of the paladin, everything else would be mint, which it's not.

6) Agree, lower the cost.

7) OK on stun, but not on mezz so I kind of agree.


Exploder wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:00 PM
"Fun"/Custom Additions:
I'm not a fan of adding anything custom, but if you do it needs to fit the class thematically. I'd much rather have the above 7 be changed over anything in this section as these are off the cuff.
1) Holy Nova. Yes, this is a rip off of WoW, but it fits the class. A PBAOE heal/dd similar to the cleric pbaoe shout.
2) Pairing Chants. Idea being you could only run 2 chants at a time with a global cooldown of 5-8 seconds. Depending on the pairing, it would give you a bonus of some sort. i.e. dmg add+heal = adds a heal proc, af+resists = melee/magic ablative, etc. To me this feels WAY too custom, but it would remove twisting and also make chants more engaging.

The only customthing I would add is a spec heal line, for those that wants a plate healer.

1) It would be too different. I would rather see an instant DD instead of taunt for example.

2) Too custom if you ask me. Compressing the resistance from 6 to 2 spells would be fine in my opinion.

Exploder wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:00 PM
Do NOT add:
1) Celerity. This only goes to Mid. Don't add it to Paladin's just because they are weak.
2) Speed. They don't need a speed chant nor does it fit thematically.
3) Divine Shield. I haven't actually read anything in this thread for a little while, but I do remember Divine Shield in some form being mentioned either in this thread or another. Please don't. Incredibly broken mechanic.

1) To make paladins attractive, you need an edge. This is an edge so we have to agree to disagree.
2) Agree, don't understand why it's even mentioned by folks.
3) 100% agree, poor and cheap mechanics. I.e Sojourner Phase Shift and Battlemaster Bodyguard.



Exploder wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:00 PM
Champion: Haven't tested them at all, but I imagine they could use some help. Some of the suggestions I've read (debuff recast time) seem fair to me and could possibly give them a role in 8 mans. Might have to pair it with something else.

Champions are on the opposite spectre, they work very well solo, but not in groups. Lowering recast time might help them out a lot.


Exploder wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:00 PM
Warden: I haven't played a Warden on this server, but my experience tells me that:
1) They do no damage.
2) They have no shield so defense solely relies on PBT and parry.
3) Are not widely accepted in groups as they don't have a clear role. If they spec regrowth, why not just get another druid? If they spec melee, they do next to no damage so could never be on a tank train. They could potentially be a peel (snare) bot, but why not just have a Hero who gets slam, guard, and snare?

1) They don't need to do damage. They have TWF, they are naturalists and damage on them is straight up dangarous.

2) They don't need shield spec line, and never did. It were given to them to give them more variance in specline instead of just lowering their specpoints.

3) They are wildely accepted. You can switch out one druid for a warden and don't experience any problem what so ever. It will even bring more utility to the group and is done frequently, at least in this patch. They are always present in a tank group, and their job is heal and peel as they get a side snare at 10 blade.

Exploder wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:00 PM
To me, this means you need to improve their small man/solo capability.
Steps to do that:
1) Add the Shield line. I believe I read somewhere the devs have no plans in adding shield to Warden's, but they need something to feel a bit more viable. PBT and a small amount of parry isn't enough to be effective as a fighter. This would be really the only change you could do to make them useful in 8 mans.
2) Add more spec points. This is a given if paired with the Shield line. If that is not going to happen, they still need a bit more. This would allow them to put more points into parry without sacrificing too much regrowth or weapon spec.
3) Increase weaponskill. Similar to Paladin's, increase it by 1 tier. Due to low weaponskill, they continuously fire reactionary styles off of assassins (primarily who they will be fighting if they solo) and as a whole struggle to penetrate any form of defense. This would also somewhat alleviate their damage woes.

1) Don't. It is not needed, they are not supposed to be slambots.

2) Nonono, they can go 49 nurt 42 reg 10 blade, if anything reduce their spec pool so that more variety can be induced.

3) It's on repeat: they don't need damage, they are not damage dealers. That is reserved for VW, BM, Hero and Champions.
Wed 3 Oct 2018 7:57 AM by Cadebrennus
What about adding a Blocking chant? That way when faced with a dual wielder a Paladin (and only a Paladin) can negate SOME (not all) of the Dual Wielder's ability to halve block chance. Paladins then have a choice between AF chant, Ablative chant, or Blocking chant etc. This would boost Paladins as soloers and groupmate guards (hopefully) without making them OP'ed.
Wed 3 Oct 2018 1:51 PM by Exploder
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:14 AM
Exploder wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 7:00 PM
Paladin: I've been playing a paladin for the past few days and it is incredibly weak. Due to dual wield halving block chance, it is impossible to be a defensive stalwart which is what the class is designed to be. Matched with ineffective chants (hello, heal chant), way too many buttons to mash, and low weapon skill, the class flounders in every aspect of the game.

They have always been incredible weak. Paladins are the result of poor game design, and lack of a specific role. They are tanks like armsman, wield two handers and shields like armsman but they have chants. Their WS is lower because they are not armsman. Their defensive capeabilities are among the highest in the game. Plate, shield weilder, self AF buff and (this hurts to say) a spec AF chant. Cutting down on core shield mechanics just to buff one class against DW classes is not the way to go. It has a low weaponskill compared to Armsman because it is not an armsman. Giving them more damage, makes them compete with that class, something which is more devestating. Paladin players need to question themselves: do I want to do damage? Go armsman. Do I want to be a hybrid peeler / support? Go Paladin.
The chants are their selling point, and should be the focus when they begin to balance classes.
Bumping them to 20 on the Factor table wouldn't put them near Armsman in damage. In what world is the DW penalty good as it is? I'm not doing this just to buff Paladin's - this was meant for all shield tanks. 50% penalty is just way too steep.

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:14 AM
1) Completely agree. The heal chant needs to make an impact no questions about it. An increase between 50 and 75% should be tested during i50

2) Again, don't ruin a mechanic just to give more defensive play. Also, this would mean that heavy/light tanks would have to golfbag shields.

3) Paladins are difficult to balance, they have extremely many defensive utilities and they can't be at the level of an armsman. This is where fine tuning will have to be done during i50.

4) Nop, it makes imbalance between the other song/chanters. This will not fix the pally, but it will sure as hell make hib and mid stronger.

5) This argument is stupid, no offense. Endo 3 has been in the game for a long time given at a higher level of alchemy in this patch but still. And it is the same on both hib and mid too. If this was the real issue of the paladin, everything else would be mint, which it's not.

6) Agree, lower the cost.

7) OK on stun, but not on mezz so I kind of agree.
2) It's not a healthy mechanic. I'm not asking for it be removed - just reduced. A golfbag? so 1 extra shield constitutes a golf bag? This would make it so the other shields are actually used. /switch macro's are easy enough to make.

3) I agree.

4) This would be Paladin specific.

5) It's really not. Endo 3 being in the game forever isn't a good counter argument. As it stands now, I can do whatever I want on any of my character's with no fear of running out of endurance. Even though I listed this under Paladin, this is more of a general change. Much like the DW penalty and buff potions.

7) That's fine.

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:14 AM
The only customthing I would add is a spec heal line, for those that wants a plate healer.

1) It would be too different. I would rather see an instant DD instead of taunt for example.

2) Too custom if you ask me. Compressing the resistance from 6 to 2 spells would be fine in my opinion.
1) I agree. I'm really not a fan of custom additions, these would just be ones that fit the class if you wanted to go down that route.

2) They technically do have compressed resistances, but the values on them at max level are 10% for all.

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 6:14 AM
1) They don't need to do damage. They have TWF, they are naturalists and damage on them is straight up dangarous.

2) They don't need shield spec line, and never did. It were given to them to give them more variance in specline instead of just lowering their specpoints.

3) They are wildely accepted. You can switch out one druid for a warden and don't experience any problem what so ever. It will even bring more utility to the group and is done frequently, at least in this patch. They are always present in a tank group, and their job is heal and peel as they get a side snare at 10 blade.

I would defer to people that actually have experience playing the class. These were suggestions from fighting wardens on this server and from past experience on the classic cluster. That being said, my suggested changes were under the assumption that they weren't getting groups. If they are, then my suggestions are moot.
Wed 3 Oct 2018 9:19 PM by Dve
I haven't seen most of the pages - in fact I only looked at the first and the last page, and I have to say I don't like most of the suggestions that include additional "unclassic" features like slam for wardens, additional group spells for paladins etc.

If anyone of you played in RvR on Phoenix already, you would know that especially Wardens don't need any buffs at all! They are in fact one of the more powerful classes with amped up heals. Their classic features of 6 second Pulse BT, recastable Group BT and Body Resist buff, their ability to even use side snares with just 10 in Blades (a self peeling healer!), but also their custom Cure Disease spell, custom Determination RA (a healer with det!), customized buffed up Major Heal for almost no manacost already make them a core part of any Hib "melee" (or rather: healer) group. If you now try to counter me with something like "but that's a healing warden spec, what about DPS warden ZOMG", why don't we start discussing to buff smite clerics, cave shamans and earth wizards then?

Here are my suggestions to make Paladins more viable without giving them any additional custom abilities.
Would be nice to get all of them, but only having a few would already be great improvements.

1. Make the cleric spec AF buff & paladin spec AF chant behave like speed songs & hastener speed
Let the spec AF chant "overwrite" the cleric spec AF buff, as long as it is pulsing - when it is not pulsing, put the cleric spec AF buff back to effect. Currently, the paladin spec AF chant is USELESS because you would sometimes run out of the chant's range or the Paladin could be incapacitated from twisting it. It would put to use though if it behaved like speed songs, which just put into effect "whichever highest buff is currently available".

2. Lengthen all chants to 8 second duration.
Why? because he can only use chants every 8 seconds. Currently, the resist chants have a duration of 5 seconds (while being recastable every 8 seconds). This means the resist chants only have an uptime of 62.5% (if the paladin is twisting efficiently). Either that or give him castable cold/heat/matter resist buffs.

3. Remove endu cost of twisting chants.
Paladins have 6 chants. They will never be able to use most of them, because twisting them every 8 seconds results in run out of endurance immediately, especially when they are sprinting, slamming and snaring in between. From playing paladin myself on the other shard, I remember just keeping a few select chants running instead of twisting because of this. What a waste of skillpoints put into this line, when you are only using one of them effectively!

4. Enable the 2handed spec!
This one might be a stretch, but I'd love to see it possible to spec 50 2h, 42 Shield, 39 slash/thrust/crush and max level Chants. You'd need about 1100 additional skill points for this. The only way to have 2h + slam in a group spec right now, would require you to have 39 2h and only yellow chants. If you can only have yellow chants (and just 39 2h), you really would rather invite an Armsman. And no worries, even if Paladins had enough skillpoints to get 50 2h, they would still get surpassed by Armsmen with Stoicism, a higher placement on the Damage Table (factor 19 instead of factor 22), and Polearm styles. (You could give Champion and Thane the same treatment: allow them to get 50 2handed, 42 shields, max Magic. They won't surpass Warriors or Heroes in Group RvR because of Stoicism and higher Damage Table factors.
Wed 3 Oct 2018 9:46 PM by Isavyr
Takii wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Oct 2018 9:58 PM
Decreasing the dual wield bonus against shields ... would have huge repercussions on a bunch of other classes.

Would it?

Light-tanks aren't intended to be attacking the face of their targets (where shield is useful), and assassins--imo--shouldn't be able to take down a tank unless the tank is significantly less skilled/realmranked.

It was a questionable design decision in 2003 and it remains that way--in my view. Speaking of which, while shield is only useful from the front, requires specialization, and requires reducing your damage to a one-hander, light-tanks get 360* evade... because?
Wed 3 Oct 2018 9:54 PM by vulna
What patch allowed paladin spec AF to stack with cleric spec AF on live? Anyone remember??
Thu 4 Oct 2018 7:35 AM by inoeth
Dve wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 9:19 PM
"but that's a healing warden spec, what about DPS warden ZOMG", why don't we start discussing to buff smite clerics, cave shamans and earth wizards then?


cave shamans are fine, erath wizards are too .... smite clerics well im not sure if anyonye rly wants to play a smiter?

i agree wardens are not the weakest hybrid, but you are actually stuck to one specific spec and in a fight you only single heal or sidesnare.... thats pretty boring.
slam would make the gameplay a bit more interesting while not being so much overpowered, because even with the stun its not an iwin-button, but in fact i would like to see 15% cele on the dmg add chant being the better choice for a change. thats because the paladin therefore has to get that too and also that would make the paladin a musthave in every alb tank grp. imo that would catch two flies with one hit^^
Thu 4 Oct 2018 11:48 AM by Kaziera
Dve wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 9:19 PM
I haven't seen most of the pages - in fact I only looked at the first and the last page, and I have to say I don't like most of the suggestions that include additional "unclassic" features like slam for wardens, additional group spells for paladins etc.

If anyone of you played in RvR on Phoenix already, you would know that especially Wardens don't need any buffs at all! They are in fact one of the more powerful classes with amped up heals. Their classic features of 6 second Pulse BT, recastable Group BT and Body Resist buff, their ability to even use side snares with just 10 in Blades (a self peeling healer!), but also their custom Cure Disease spell, custom Determination RA (a healer with det!), customized buffed up Major Heal for almost no manacost already make them a core part of any Hib "melee" (or rather: healer) group. If you now try to counter me with something like "but that's a healing warden spec, what about DPS warden ZOMG", why don't we start discussing to buff smite clerics, cave shamans and earth wizards then?

Here are my suggestions to make Paladins more viable without giving them any additional custom abilities.
Would be nice to get all of them, but only having a few would already be great improvements.

1. Make the cleric spec AF buff & paladin spec AF chant behave like speed songs & hastener speed
Let the spec AF chant "overwrite" the cleric spec AF buff, as long as it is pulsing - when it is not pulsing, put the cleric spec AF buff back to effect. Currently, the paladin spec AF chant is USELESS because you would sometimes run out of the chant's range or the Paladin could be incapacitated from twisting it. It would put to use though if it behaved like speed songs, which just put into effect "whichever highest buff is currently available".

2. Lengthen all chants to 8 second duration.
Why? because he can only use chants every 8 seconds. Currently, the resist chants have a duration of 5 seconds (while being recastable every 8 seconds). This means the resist chants only have an uptime of 62.5% (if the paladin is twisting efficiently). Either that or give him castable cold/heat/matter resist buffs.

3. Remove endu cost of twisting chants.
Paladins have 6 chants. They will never be able to use most of them, because twisting them every 8 seconds results in run out of endurance immediately, especially when they are sprinting, slamming and snaring in between. From playing paladin myself on the other shard, I remember just keeping a few select chants running instead of twisting because of this. What a waste of skillpoints put into this line, when you are only using one of them effectively!

4. Enable the 2handed spec!
This one might be a stretch, but I'd love to see it possible to spec 50 2h, 42 Shield, 39 slash/thrust/crush and max level Chants. You'd need about 1100 additional skill points for this. The only way to have 2h + slam in a group spec right now, would require you to have 39 2h and only yellow chants. If you can only have yellow chants (and just 39 2h), you really would rather invite an Armsman. And no worries, even if Paladins had enough skillpoints to get 50 2h, they would still get surpassed by Armsmen with Stoicism, a higher placement on the Damage Table (factor 19 instead of factor 22), and Polearm styles. (You could give Champion and Thane the same treatment: allow them to get 50 2handed, 42 shields, max Magic. They won't surpass Warriors or Heroes in Group RvR because of Stoicism and higher Damage Table factors.

Sad that you didnt read the pages inbetween 1 and 10. Because evrything you suggest allready has been suggested. Mostly in more elaborate variants
Thu 4 Oct 2018 1:18 PM by Seigmoraig
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 11:48 AM
Sad that you didnt read the pages inbetween 1 and 10. Because evrything you suggest allready has been suggested. Mostly in more elaborate variants

As if anybody has time to read 10 pages of long rambling sometimes full of hate and bickering posts. Seriously
Thu 4 Oct 2018 1:56 PM by Kaziera
Ever heard of the concept of clancing through something? In the time he wrote the post above, he would have finished glancing through the thread and reading the relevant bits 10 times.
Sat 6 Oct 2018 12:35 AM by Niix
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 7:35 AM
Dve wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 9:19 PM
"but that's a healing warden spec, what about DPS warden ZOMG", why don't we start discussing to buff smite clerics, cave shamans and earth wizards then?


cave shamans are fine, erath wizards are too .... smite clerics well im not sure if anyonye rly wants to play a smiter?

i agree wardens are not the weakest hybrid, but you are actually stuck to one specific spec and in a fight you only single heal or sidesnare.... thats pretty boring.
slam would make the gameplay a bit more interesting while not being so much overpowered, because even with the stun its not an iwin-button, but in fact i would like to see 15% cele on the dmg add chant being the better choice for a change. thats because the paladin therefore has to get that too and also that would make the paladin a musthave in every alb tank grp. imo that would catch two flies with one hit^^

Slam on wardens would make them too strong imo, they are already a must have class for most group setups hib runs, they in a perfect place imo
Wed 10 Oct 2018 7:16 PM by rubaduck
Niix wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Oct 2018 12:35 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Oct 2018 7:35 AM
Dve wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Oct 2018 9:19 PM
"but that's a healing warden spec, what about DPS warden ZOMG", why don't we start discussing to buff smite clerics, cave shamans and earth wizards then?


cave shamans are fine, erath wizards are too .... smite clerics well im not sure if anyonye rly wants to play a smiter?

i agree wardens are not the weakest hybrid, but you are actually stuck to one specific spec and in a fight you only single heal or sidesnare.... thats pretty boring.
slam would make the gameplay a bit more interesting while not being so much overpowered, because even with the stun its not an iwin-button, but in fact i would like to see 15% cele on the dmg add chant being the better choice for a change. thats because the paladin therefore has to get that too and also that would make the paladin a musthave in every alb tank grp. imo that would catch two flies with one hit^^

Slam on wardens would make them too strong imo, they are already a must have class for most group setups hib runs, they in a perfect place imo

I would actually say a bit too good. Wardens can run 49 nurture, 42 regrowth 10 blades (for side snare) and 8 parry (I think). There are no variation to this, it is the most optimal spec and provides with red resists, all the chants, the best major heal as well as a side snare. Lowering the spec points will make the plaer be more conscious and choose more wisely instead of just having all the candy. But I agree, a shield spec will not make it better, that will only give one more slambot to groups, and it won't make them more viable in a 1v1 or smallmen either as they are very limited on their offense.
Thu 11 Oct 2018 7:50 AM by Sei
senseless wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 6:53 PM
So time and time again, I see posts regarding how many underutilized Hybrids are thrown by the wayside due to QoL changes (ie pots vs friar and pally utility). Though the pots are possibly a factor that help contribute to this, I think that the argument seems more valid mainly because some of the classes fundamentals are flawed to begin with. I am sure there are hib and mid counterparts that could argue this same topic (possible warden or thane low utility) Rather than argue that pots are ruining a fundementally flawed class, would it be worth arguing that with a few additions, these classes could be made viable? These are all really rough ideas, but I think some could be tossed around. Possible changes could include:

Paladin:
Ranged snare or DDs on a timer similar to mini. Mini still has SOS, speed, pet stun on timer so I feel that these would not overlap utility greatly. Rupts would put them more in line with champ and thane without stealing from their identity too bad.

More spec points?
Could offer some damage spec options.

ABS debuff style?
Something similar to live battlewarden. Might help add them to tank groups?

Insta celerity buff on a long timer?
Something similar to Reavers insta self DA. 1 min or 30 sec duration on (insert timer here) cool down. Bonus points if it's 250 range PBAoE.

PB BT style or insta on cool down?
Usable like a guard on ally. Maybe a spell-specific BT, not sure how hard that would be to code.

Mezz feedback protect?
Kind of like GoLM charge that you can throw onto an ally. Unsure of timer.

Insta speed on reuse timer?
Kind of like the archer get out of jail free cards. Damage could knock them out of it, but could be useful to zone, peel, Chase, ect.


I know pally is kinda what I spitballed off the top of my head atm, maybe one or two additions similar to the above suggested would add unique utility without gimping other classes. I am sure they would all need some serious testing/ tweaking to get nailed down and have values adjusted to
I would love to hear what people could drum up for other underutilized Hybrids as well. If this thread gains traction, I'll actually put some together for friar/warden/champ/thane (though admittedly I am less familiar with them)

I d simply remove endu pot, i dont see any benefit of having them in terms of gameplay but to slightly buff soloer vs grp.

No end pot = forcing alb to get paly, or no speed6 on alb , forcing having sham, forcing Bard to cast endu and stay with tanks, having the possibility to remove endu by killing someone.
Thu 11 Oct 2018 7:52 AM by Sei
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:56 PM
Adding Shield spec to Wardens would make them highly groupable in PVE and RVR without making them OP

Well i m not sure, even with Shield warden was underpowered , i would rather buff their heal spec
Thu 11 Oct 2018 8:51 AM by Kaziera
Sei wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 7:52 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:56 PM
Adding Shield spec to Wardens would make them highly groupable in PVE and RVR without making them OP

Well i m not sure, even with Shield warden was underpowered , i would rather buff their heal spec

But that was in the bodyguard meta, where peeling and kiting was not important. It was all about hitpoints and dmg reduction where warden still sucked.
Thu 11 Oct 2018 1:51 PM by Ganaka
Sei wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 7:52 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:56 PM
Adding Shield spec to Wardens would make them highly groupable in PVE and RVR without making them OP

Well i m not sure, even with Shield warden was underpowered , i would rather buff their heal spec

Like a better group heal or the group heal-over-time? The Mentalist has the only HOT in Hibernia, and its single target only.
Fri 12 Oct 2018 11:59 AM by yaru
imo adding totally new abilities (in most cases even stuff from later patchlevels) should be kept to a minimum cos it ll change the classic feel way too much.
rather buff already existing/abilities, grant more specpoints to enable hybrids full potential or try tweaking passive attributes like hp/weaponskill.

lots of good suggestions already in this thread of which id like to pick up/repeat some of them.



class-specific suggestions:

regarding wardens. i think theyre in a perfect place already, even on the edge of being op cos they got access to det aswell. me personally id like a warden to be part of any tank/hybrid and in some setups possibly even caster grps. its just an allround great support class with lots of benefits for the grp, no need to add shieldspec or anything to it.

to make friars more viable on the other hand it should atleast be possible for them to go high enh (48), rej (43) and at the same time be able to get the staff sidepeel (18). for that they would either need a few more specpts or the sidestyle to be moved to 13 staff or lower. like that friars could more effectively be played as backup healers/peelers without giving up important resists.

paladin. i also had the exact same thought @ganaka, paladin/friar re both kind of incomplete. if u were to make a hybrid out of the two it would be a great support/tank and possibly seen in every albgrp. <- just theoretically speaking, not actually suggesting it.
so what could be done? nice suggestions from exploder/dve here btw.
i think the best way without altering the feel/playstyle too much would be to increase their amount of specpoints greatly to make them able to go
high chants/shield/2h/1h. it would improve their utility and create a more versatile playing experience if u had the ability to switch between shield(1h)/2h when necessary.
to promote twisting it might be a good idea to remove endocost from chants so paladins can actually use more of their (on paper) huge utility.
only problem i see by increasing hybrids skillpoints by a fair amount is that they may become too strong in 1v1/smallman situations cos it would aside from the splitspec also enable full defense/dps specs (of which dps spec on a paladin most likely wont ever become a problem at this setting ) - eventho id maybe also like to see paladins being moved up in the dmgtable a lil.

wizards. no hybrid, but definitely need some love imo. add the 15% heatresist-debuff on the fire spec-DD to make them able to also kill stuff in group situations (with enemies having yellow-red resists) without always having the need of a bodysorc 50% debuffing for them. dmg is the only thing they bring to the table, dont leave it so easily counterable by a single resist buff.
consider giving them ns in earth-line to atleast add some utility to them. right now fire- and ice-spec re 100% dmg oriented and earth completely obsolete aside from maybe keep-/MG-fightsituations

champ. increase skillpoints to enable high lw/valor + 42shield spec. problem i see is that it might become too beast in 1v1/smallman.

vw. perfectly fine. only thing i could think of would be increasing the selfdmgadds off some styles. cos as is theyre pretty useless (way too low)

thane. same treatment as paladin/champ - more skillpoints to make high sc/weapon + 42shield a possibility.

hunter. maybe just a flat increase to melee/ranged dps. id think that any change to their pet, like disease or stun would be too strong and alter their playstyle alot.



general suggestions:

- lower powercost on cleric/thane smite, vw lifetap
- give friar, vw and thane access to more passive caster-ras

friar - wh, moArts
vw - mom, moArts
thane - mom, wp, moArts

- up range to 1,5k on high-level cleric spec-smite

- since most hybrids seem to do fine solo (some in smallman too) it should may be considered to make some of their selfbuffs -> groupbuffs.

ofc some would be way too strong, thinking of warden haste or vw diseaseproc. so stay away from those. but what about

paladin spec-af
friar dex/quick
champ/thane strength/con
vw ablative
reaver offensive-proc
Fri 12 Oct 2018 12:40 PM by rubaduck
Sei wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 7:50 AM
I d simply remove endu pot, i dont see any benefit of having them in terms of gameplay but to slightly buff soloer vs grp.

No end pot = forcing alb to get paly, or no speed6 on alb , forcing having sham, forcing Bard to cast endu and stay with tanks, having the possibility to remove endu by killing someone.

But does that really help though? Are Paladins considered as not good because of endu? What you're saying (indirectly) is that his kit is good, but because of endu pots he's useless. The answer to this is of course no. The Paladins, even without the endu pot is still useless, but are only brought because they have to bring them, not because it is a good team choice. You will force alb caster groups to bring a pally too, even though it is straight up redundant. They are wasting a slot for a class that is considered unfinished, and who will suffer for it? Albion groups, Albion pugs, Albion smallmen and Albion soloers. Hibs and mids will be completely unaffected by the change.

Mids run with a shaman, shaman buffs endu no problem they are still good to go regardless if it's a caster or a melee group and will steamroll any alb caster groups because they are virtually a 7 man group with an endurance bot who can't do #¤(= because of it's underpower. Hibernia runs a bard, no problem both caster groups and melee groups runs a bard, and facing an alb group, they will virtually be 8vs7 because of the very same reasons.

What you are implying, is that paladins are considered good, but they are not good. They are probably the worst class in the game and has been since vanilla daoc all the way up to laby expansion. And no, that's not because of endu pots, it is because the class is /(#=, it has a )#"ty kit, with #(=)¤ skills and and (#)%ty spells. Does endu pots help them? Absolutely not, but that is not because pots are broken, it is because the paladin kit is bad.

Cause and effect, think about it and you'll see how bad the "remove endurance pots" argument really is (for Albs).
Sat 13 Oct 2018 9:24 AM by Tool73
So much changes on assasins and there poisons, they never had in 1.65, to push them, so i would like to comment on hunter for more usefull charm pets in frontier, for ALL archers access to 5.5 delay bows and highest range, selfbuffs hunter + ranger (and maybe all the other selfbuff classes) viable to normal buff classes, to make it more worth to specc in beast+pathfind and at least: strongest ability in my view on this patch was the pet could desneak when once on attack mode, u changed this for all pet classes, what makes hunter very weak vs other sneaks, cause they can easy outrun the low range damage and sneak away. Give unique ability to hunter pet to desneak or call of the hounds.
Sat 13 Oct 2018 2:42 PM by Niix
New ideas:
Friar - give them cute nearsight at 40 rejuvenation
Thane - higher weapon skill table, caster RAs and a 15% energy debuff on their insta dd
Paladin - higher weapon skill table, more spec points, buff heal chant
Champ - already buffed debuffs, small easy change that put them back into viable category
Reaver - think these guys already have their niche and are super strong it it, any buffs may require nerf to Levi
VW - don’t see much wrong here either, very serviceable and fun
Warden - strong class in this meta, no changes required
Sat 13 Oct 2018 3:23 PM by rubaduck
Niix wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 2:42 PM
New ideas:
Friar - give them cute nearsight at 40 rejuvenation
Thane - higher weapon skill table, caster RAs and a 15% energy debuff on their insta dd
Paladin - higher weapon skill table, more spec points, buff heal chant
Champ - already buffed debuffs, small easy change that put them back into viable category
Reaver - think these guys already have their niche and are super strong it it, any buffs may require nerf to Levi
VW - don’t see much wrong here either, very serviceable and fun
Warden - strong class in this meta, no changes required

Agree with mostly everything here, thane needs love and caster RAs will be a great tool, champs looks like they got a strong change that can make them favourable. Pallys need a lot more, increasing their WS will only make them closer to an arms, but increasing heal chant will def make them more attractive. More spec points is fine, as long as the end result doesn't end up as an armsman, just with chants.
Sat 13 Oct 2018 3:38 PM by Niix
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 3:23 PM
Agree with mostly everything here, thane needs love and caster RAs will be a great tool, champs looks like they got a strong change that can make them favourable. Pallys need a lot more, increasing their WS will only make them closer to an arms, but increasing heal chant will def make them more attractive. More spec points is fine, as long as the end result doesn't end up as an armsman, just with chants.

It won’t, they don’t have access to pole, still will have lower weapon skill, lower hit points, less defense from lower shield spec and parry... end is still useless and no one will use as long as end 4 pots and tireless exist... at least imo
Sat 13 Oct 2018 4:35 PM by rubaduck
Niix wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 3:38 PM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 3:23 PM
Agree with mostly everything here, thane needs love and caster RAs will be a great tool, champs looks like they got a strong change that can make them favourable. Pallys need a lot more, increasing their WS will only make them closer to an arms, but increasing heal chant will def make them more attractive. More spec points is fine, as long as the end result doesn't end up as an armsman, just with chants.

It won’t, they don’t have access to pole, still will have lower weapon skill, lower hit points, less defense from lower shield spec and parry... end is still useless and no one will use as long as end 4 pots and tireless exist... at least imo

That goes for all realms, so it isn't really a confident argument for the pally. That class won't be saved by altering endo pots, it's ludacris to even think so. The class is a mess, unfinished, underpowered on every aspect. Don't force them in to groups before they are ready to be played. I don't mind a bump in WS, but paladins have the potential of becoming a powerhouse of a class if they are treated well, just and fair. It will require drastic changes, but I am not sure if damage is the way to go. I am not even sure if support is the way to go either. It is a conundrum to be honest.
Sat 13 Oct 2018 5:46 PM by Niix
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 4:35 PM
It won’t, they don’t have access to pole, still will have lower weapon skill, lower hit points, less defense from lower shield spec and parry... end is still useless and no one will use as long as end 4 pots and tireless exist... at least imo

That goes for all realms, so it isn't really a confident argument for the pally. That class won't be saved by altering endo pots, it's ludacris to even think so. The class is a mess, unfinished, underpowered on every aspect. Don't force them in to groups before they are ready to be played. I don't mind a bump in WS, but paladins have the potential of becoming a powerhouse of a class if they are treated well, just and fair. It will require drastic changes, but I am not sure if damage is the way to go. I am not even sure if support is the way to go either. It is a conundrum to be honest.
[/quote]

I agree, paladins were not in a good spot end pots or not :p

Hybrids value to groups has kind of always been utility (at least the successful ones VW/warden/Champ haha), if you dropped pbt wardens wouldn't be good - ala friar but that alone gives them enough group utility.

I agree weaponskill isn't necessarily the answer, but thane/pally should at least be where champ is and last someone linked me they were not (would like to confirm that).
Sat 13 Oct 2018 8:55 PM by Sei
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Oct 2018 12:40 PM
Sei wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 7:50 AM
I d simply remove endu pot, i dont see any benefit of having them in terms of gameplay but to slightly buff soloer vs grp.

No end pot = forcing alb to get paly, or no speed6 on alb , forcing having sham, forcing Bard to cast endu and stay with tanks, having the possibility to remove endu by killing someone.

But does that really help though? Are Paladins considered as not good because of endu? What you're saying (indirectly) is that his kit is good, but because of endu pots he's useless. The answer to this is of course no.

Alot of text, but 1) you are completely ignoring my points2) you are changing the focus of the debate on : is the pala kit good?

I defenitly dont want to go on this 2nd discussion, and i still confirm my point about endu pot : removing them would force alb grp to get paly to perma sprint/ run mele setup .

It is exactly the same with mis that should run with 3rd heal instead of sham in current meta.

My point was to Say that endu pot is dumping certain classes + remove a strategical aspect from the gameplay (controling the endu provider)
Mon 15 Oct 2018 11:55 PM by cortexqc
why not add bodyguard at 42 hybrid shield spec (and only for paladin, champ, and thane)
this way you can help them to find place in group for peeling "and" super guard roles for healers or pbaoe class player.
only 1 feature 3 class boost.

For Friar since the core of gameplay is 2 hand offensive maybe an active skill with timer.
Like : instant 30s buff 2mn timer CD healing melee spread heal (don't work on the friar, they don't need to be solo selfbuffed).
ex : hit for 250 ---->heal the group mate with lesser life for 250.
Tue 16 Oct 2018 2:05 AM by Niix
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Oct 2018 11:55 PM
why not add bodyguard at 42 hybrid shield spec (and only for paladin, champ, and thane)
this way you can help them to find place in group for peeling "and" super guard roles for healers or pbaoe class player.
only 1 feature 3 class boost.

For Friar since the core of gameplay is 2 hand offensive maybe an active skill with timer.
Like : instant 30s buff 2mn timer CD healing melee spread heal (don't work on the friar, they don't need to be solo selfbuffed).
ex : hit for 250 ---->heal the group mate with lesser life for 250.

Don’t say the word bodyguard around here... horrible idea
Tue 16 Oct 2018 6:37 PM by Stormfront
There is an entire thread about thanes somewhere.. all 3 of us have given ideas.
Wed 17 Oct 2018 2:49 PM by Sepplord
I personally hate bodyguard but even if i liked the TOA-abilities, introducing bodyguards without the others would be a clusterfuck (for example, no zephyring away of the bodyguard)
Wed 17 Oct 2018 11:35 PM by Ganaka
If Paladins had the Minstrel speed and ablative armor, would they be more valuable? Would they be overpowered?
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