Shield for Warden - Phoenix Freeshard

Hello,
Just wanna know if Warden can spec in Shield on this server
Thank you for your answer

Wed 25 Jul 2018 5:01 PM by Aincrad

Algarakai wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Jul 2018 2:48 PM
Hello,
Just wanna know if Warden can spec in Shield on this server
Thank you for your answer

They cannot as far as I am aware

Thu 26 Jul 2018 5:02 PM by Magesty

No shield spec for Warden on this server. Only parry.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:41 PM by Ragnar

How Warden are doing solo ? Any feedback ? 🤔

Thu 30 Aug 2018 8:18 PM by Zintair

Ragnar wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:41 PM
How Warden are doing solo ? Any feedback ? 🤔

Doubt we'd be good without a stun.

Anytime stun. Haven't spend high blades tho so not sure the true potential.

Fri 31 Aug 2018 9:36 AM by inoeth

with 50 blunt you have a 10 sec stun, i play with that spec and it is actually really powerful vs melee classes except assassins.

the downside is you have to gimp yourself in nurture and healing spec....

so shieldspec for warden would be very nice, since you can play both solo and grp with just one spec. also grp play for wardens would be more fun since you have more to do than just buff resists and single heal.

Mon 3 Sep 2018 3:39 AM by Thinal

Unless it came with more spec points, I think it would counter-intuitively render wardens useless. We'd be expected to spec 42 shield for the anytime stun. To hit a standard 49 nurture, that would barely reach 6 blades for the taunt, 12 regrowth for the first fatigue reduction, and zero points for anything else. Crappy heals, no side snare, no real melee damage, no real solo ability, no benefit to the group other than a buff+stun bot. You might enjoy that, but I wouldn't.

I don't play live, so I don't know how it worked out there. Did they give out more spec points? Are wardens pretty much buffbots there? Do they reduce nurture to compensate?

Mon 3 Sep 2018 11:44 AM by inoeth

shield skill with increase of skill points ofc.... like it was on live several years ago

Mon 3 Sep 2018 11:50 AM by Druth

I like the idea of more diversity in groups, but slam is so insanely strong that I personally don't think we need more with it, the opposite really.

Imo, any melee stun at 7+ sec should come with a condition of some sort.
We have light tanks going 42 shield for this style alone. They will not pull out shield for any other reason than slam, thats how strong it is.

Mon 3 Sep 2018 1:27 PM by Thinal

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 11:44 AM
shield skill with increase of skill points ofc.... like it was on live several years ago

Well, now you're facing the opposite problem, the warden who gets the extra specs and uses it for something other than shield. Full nurture, high regrowth, and high weapon? Sounds like the class to be, especially pre-42 when slam isn't available yet anyhow.

Tue 4 Sep 2018 7:43 AM by inoeth

how is that a problem? on the other hand you wont be able to skill all 3 high because before lvl 40 you gain less skill points per level since you get etra points for the .5 lvls.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:11 AM by Cadebrennus

I was just speaking with a buddy of mine (Mattswarden) who was one of the top (if not the top) Warden player on live. He agreed that extra spec points would make Wardens OP'ed here but shield spec without the extra spec points would be balanced. As a poster mentioned earlier, to get 42 shield would require a significant sacrifice in other lines available to a Warden. The other option would be to spec lower shield and "git gud" with the positional stun styles.

I think the real benefit here would be that adding Shield spec without the extra points would give Wardens more group utility in RvR (and PvE) without making them OP.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:49 AM by inoeth

warden never was op with and without shield lol
shieldspec without bonus skillpoints is BS ..... BTW mythic only granted about 400 skillpoints when they introduced shield for wardens

try to explain why you think wardens with more spec points and the ability to skill shield, but not actually skilling shield would make wardens OP
either you have good healing, high nurture, shield.... but lack of dmg or ( 32 reg 49 nurt 42 shield 3 weapon)
good healing high nurture ok dmg but suck at defense or (32 reg 49 nurt 39 weapon 15 shield)
no healing, ok dmg, ok defense but low nurture (7 reg 44 weapon 42 shield 38 nurt)
none of these specs are considered OP

Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:19 AM by Ceen

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:49 AM
warden never was op with and without shield lol
shieldspec without bonus skillpoints is BS ..... BTW mythic only granted about 400 skillpoints when they introduced shield for wardens

try to explain why you think wardens with more spec points and the ability to skill shield, but not actually skilling shield would make wardens OP
either you have good healing, high nurture, shield.... but lack of dmg or ( 32 reg 49 nurt 42 shield 3 weapon)
good healing high nurture ok dmg but suck at defense or (32 reg 49 nurt 39 weapon 15 shield)
no healing, ok dmg, ok defense but low nurture (7 reg 44 weapon 42 shield 38 nurt)
none of these specs are considered OP

( 32 reg 49 nurt 42 shield 3 weapon)
I consider this as OP.
What is the trade of? You go from zero damage to less than Zero damage?

Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:36 AM by Druth

The problem is not that it would make wardens OP, but that it would make hib groups even better than they are now, which they dont need.
Take away shield from BM and give to wardens, then I'd be fine with it.

Then give friars anytime snare, and backside stun.
And give berserkers anytime stun.

Nerfs and buffs has to be proposed in context of the realm, and not isolated on the class, especially on a class with as much utility as warden.

Thu 6 Sep 2018 7:58 AM by

Uthred

There are no plans for adding shield spec to wardens.

Thu 6 Sep 2018 11:08 AM by relvinian

I remember watching a warden kill a skald and me adding him.

Fri 7 Sep 2018 2:04 PM by inoeth

lol 3 weapon..... try to hit someone with that, it will all get blocked/parried/evaded!
since you dont have access to battlemaster styles you need high melee skill if you want to kill anybody.
and for grp play i dont think this matters so much, what else would you skill if you wouldnt have bonus points? 49 nurt 42 shield 12 reg 6 weapon?

there was a reason why mythic gave wardens more specpoints

Mon 10 Sep 2018 6:00 PM by Thinal

Some interesting strawmen, but my precise point was "Well, now you're facing the opposite problem, the warden who gets the extra specs and uses it for something other than shield" --- a warden build using the extra points WITHOUT the shield.

With just the 400 extra points mentioned, I could get 33 regrowth / 49 nurture / 39 blades / 10 parry or shield, or 45 regrowth (full effect) / 49 nurture / 25 blunt (backstyle and its 21 sidesnare) with 8 parry or shield. In other words, I can get pretty much everything I need to be awesome support and passable melee without sacrificing anything other than slam, something I don't have now. With a full bump to 2.0x spec of +756 spec points, I can get 34 blunt for the sidesnare followup and even more damage and defense penetration.

It's a bad idea all around. Warden isn't an uber build, but its problems aren't going to be helped by adding slam to the build. Its bigger problem is that it's a hibbie class where we tend to run caster groups because our primary tanks are boring as hell. Warden with a caster group isn't nearly as useful as warden with a melee group or extra druid / bard with a caster group. Slam helps none of that.

Thu 13 Sep 2018 8:10 PM by majedorcanie

On live with spec Shield you can snare back.
No need to put points into a weapon, you hit with the line master level Battlemaster.
Warden have buffs, resists, good heal, hot, cure, speed, bubble, add damage, celerity, and TH Field in Ra.
And you have multi song too.
It's not OP to play with a warden ....
It's the better bodyguarder in this game.

Any groups play just with a bard a druid and a warden with ML perfecter like a druid.

On this server, with group mid playing 3 tanks bubble is very important.
Warden can't slam but can snare.
And have determination and TH F too.
On Hib you must play with a bard 2 druids a warden.
After for me i like play with 4 tanks : hero bm champion and vw.
Deter for all, stoicism for 2, 1 charge, any stun (slam, side, back) for all, debuff and interrupt.
Or hybrid with hero bm enchant moon and eld/menta.

Sun 16 Sep 2018 4:49 PM by inoeth

majedorcanie wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Sep 2018 8:10 PM
On live with spec Shield you can snare back.
No need to put points into a weapon, you hit with the line master level Battlemaster.
Warden have buffs, resists, good heal, hot, cure, speed, bubble, add damage, celerity, and TH Field in Ra.
And you have multi song too.
It's not OP to play with a warden ....
It's the better bodyguarder in this game.

Any groups play just with a bard a druid and a warden with ML perfecter like a druid.

On this server, with group mid playing 3 tanks bubble is very important.
Warden can't slam but can snare.
And have determination and TH F too.
On Hib you must play with a bard 2 druids a warden.
After for me i like play with 4 tanks : hero bm champion and vw.
Deter for all, stoicism for 2, 1 charge, any stun (slam, side, back) for all, debuff and interrupt.
Or hybrid with hero bm enchant moon and eld/menta.

what has live warden to do with phoeanix warden?
btw i think it be very dumb to not have slam when given shield spec.... weaponskill is not really needed as grp warden since you dont do dmg with it, but you can guerd and slam and heal and absorb and resis .... imo that is like paladin but done right ;D

Tue 18 Sep 2018 9:48 PM by relvinian

I think they should just make a new class available for all realms called.

Space Force!

They get light sabers and stealth and speed 5.

Once you go far enough custom, anything is possible.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 5:32 AM by Cadebrennus

relvinian wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Sep 2018 9:48 PM
I think they should just make a new class available for all realms called.

Space Force!

They get light sabers and stealth and speed 5.

Once you go far enough custom, anything is possible.

Already in game. They're called Minstrels. You also forgot that they wear chainmail (better than Stormtrooper armor) and have a Jedi buddy that's red or purple con helping them out.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:05 AM by relvinian

I thought those were called muggers.

I just felt like a victim when I died to that nonsense.

Sat 29 Sep 2018 1:11 AM by Beefzerkee

Hi, Mattswarden here. I was the sort of unofficial team lead for live wardens for a long time and I thought maybe I could provide some insight here as I played wardens on live since release.

The warden here isnt a powerful class, it can't melee very well and has low defense as well as meh heals and can't play more than one chant at a time. What they are is convenient, they offer pbt and emergency heals and peels. While this puts the warden in a decent place in groups and a great class to play in solo pve, we're not very good at much else. You can argue that was Mythics original vision for the class as a gimp hybrid, but in my opinion, the class bloomed when shield spec was added in Labryinth of the Minotaur and felt like a natural extention of the class, as if it should've been there all along.

Fitting with the time frame, wardens would be very strong if they recieved 1.8x spec points and shield spec and extremely underwhelming if they stayed with 1.5x spec points and shield spec. I believe with the horizon blade off block stun and access to mastery of blocking the warden can be built into a strong solo class with a ton of realm rank, but unlike other classes, really can't be without it.

A warden on this server with 1.8x spec points and shield and at least rank 7 would be extremely strong due to how strong TWF and other RAs would compliment the insane defense they would receive with the additions.

10/10 would be awesome and my biased side wants it
2/10 would annihilate almost everything except good light tanks and assassins with it.

Conclusion, too stronk don't do

Sat 29 Sep 2018 12:35 PM by Magesty

This is how I feel about adding shield to the class as well. It makes sense, it fits, and it makes them way more fun. Unfortunately, it’d be too powerful with the game in its current state and the class already receiving det and a better heal.

A lot of other things were in place for the other classes when they added shield/celerity/spec points/heal procs on Wardens. Around that time period “Mythic” was homogenizing the game and amping up the power level of all hybrid classes across the board.

I do think you could give wardens a little something to make them more appealing as a solo class and fit them into a wider variety of play styles without distorting their power level relative to other classes too significantly. It is really a question of how the devs look at the game philosophically— is it ok for some classes to just be completely niche, or would they like to make minor tweaks to make a wider variety of classes be able to fit into a wider variety of roles? Obviously, Mythic originally intended some classes to just be niche and that clearly works out just fine from a design perspective. I do think the game is more interesting when more options are available.

Personally, I really enjoyed the fact that so many classes were viable in solo/small man play during Labyrinth. That was just about the only aspect of it I liked, but it’s nice looking at a class list and knowing you can play just about any one of them solo and you would actually have a chance to compete. Let’s be honest here- playing a warden in solo or small man is going to be an arduous journey. The lack of either damage or CC makes them... less than potent in either setting.

So what can you give them to make them a little bit more viable without distorting their power level in group play? I think, unlike with Friars, that a reworked version of the offensive heal procs are actually a viable option at this patch level. This would allow Wardens to have a little bit more staying power in solo situations and would also allow them to contribute a little bit more in small mans while not adding any significant benefit to group play. They’d still do crap damage and they’d still not have CC, but at least they’d have a better chance of actually securing a kill every once in a while as a soloer and might be included in more small mans. It’s not a perfect solution, and I’m sure there are better ones out there, but it is a starting point if your goal is to shift the class out of niche viability.

Sat 29 Sep 2018 4:59 PM by Beefzerkee

Good thoughts, I'd like to point out though that staying power is less of a concern than you'd think with us having access to mastery of blocking and mastery of parrying plus an off block stun in blades.

What I recommend isn't solo viability, we have that if high enough rank and specced correctly, what I recommend is allowing two chants at once and bringing back the minor celerity on the damage add. That'll help us be less niche and more wanted for tank groups and would drastically improve small man viability.

Sun 30 Sep 2018 4:36 PM by Magesty

Beefzerkee wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Sep 2018 4:59 PM
Good thoughts, I'd like to point out though that staying power is less of a concern than you'd think with us having access to mastery of blocking and mastery of parrying plus an off block stun in blades.

What I recommend isn't solo viability, we have that if high enough rank and specced correctly, what I recommend is allowing two chants at once and bringing back the minor celerity on the damage add. That'll help us be less niche and more wanted for tank groups and would drastically improve small man viability.

I was trying to look at a solo Warden in a realistic RvR environment rather than in a vacuum. If you’re able to get a clean 1v1 they do currently have a ton of staying power, but this is highly unlikely in what is looking to be a jam packed OF environment. As it stands the longer your fight goes the chance you are added on increases exponentially, and the population is only a fraction of what it will be after launch. The Warden has no ability to kill enemies with any sort of expedience nor can they reliably stun or CC. This means that in most cases they will need to draw out a fight and endure being attacked by multiples to even secure one kill. Compare this to almost any other melee outside of the Paladin (although even they have more killing power and slam)— they have success as solos or in small mans because they can kill targets somewhat quickly or deal with adds for at least a short time. The Warden lacks the ability to do either and a solution that affects the fewest other areas of gameplay is to increase their ability to outlast an opponent via melee for long enough to at least have chance to secure a kill before dying to adds.

If you try to solo as a class with low weaponskill that relies on MoB/MoP to land a chain you’re going to quickly find yourself realizing that dodger and the penalty to block from dual wield were removed from the game for a reason. If you think wardens are going to have any level of real solo viability even at higher realm ranks I think you are sorely mistaken. Assassins and frequent adders (the Alb stealth Zerg is already at seemingly every mile gate) are going to make it nearly impossible to get kill RPs outside of the occasional clean 1v1 against a tank or 1H melee.

I think your suggested change is a good one if your goal is fitting them in to tank groups, but I think that’s just about all it will improve. It is unlikely a small man would rather have a Warden over another caster or a proper melee dps because they are bringing a 15% haste. Why would I want 15% extra damage when I could just add 100% via another fighter or more effective utility and damage via something like a mentalist.

It’s a tough thing to fix without going overboard or messing up balance in an aspect of the game. If it were up to me we’d see a lot of granular balance changes and experimental abilities through instant 50 and early launch to try to find something that works for not only the Warden, but all the classes/specs that need some love.

Mon 1 Oct 2018 4:53 AM by Beefzerkee

Magesty wrote: ↑
Sun 30 Sep 2018 4:36 PM
Beefzerkee wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Sep 2018 4:59 PM
Good thoughts, I'd like to point out though that staying power is less of a concern than you'd think with us having access to mastery of blocking and mastery of parrying plus an off block stun in blades.

What I recommend isn't solo viability, we have that if high enough rank and specced correctly, what I recommend is allowing two chants at once and bringing back the minor celerity on the damage add. That'll help us be less niche and more wanted for tank groups and would drastically improve small man viability.

I was trying to look at a solo Warden in a realistic RvR environment rather than in a vacuum. If you’re able to get a clean 1v1 they do currently have a ton of staying power, but this is highly unlikely in what is looking to be a jam packed OF environment. As it stands the longer your fight goes the chance you are added on increases exponentially, and the population is only a fraction of what it will be after launch. The Warden has no ability to kill enemies with any sort of expedience nor can they reliably stun or CC. This means that in most cases they will need to draw out a fight and endure being attacked by multiples to even secure one kill. Compare this to almost any other melee outside of the Paladin (although even they have more killing power and slam)— they have success as solos or in small mans because they can kill targets somewhat quickly or deal with adds for at least a short time. The Warden lacks the ability to do either and a solution that affects the fewest other areas of gameplay is to increase their ability to outlast an opponent via melee for long enough to at least have chance to secure a kill before dying to adds.

If you try to solo as a class with low weaponskill that relies on MoB/MoP to land a chain you’re going to quickly find yourself realizing that dodger and the penalty to block from dual wield were removed from the game for a reason. If you think wardens are going to have any level of real solo viability even at higher realm ranks I think you are sorely mistaken. Assassins and frequent adders (the Alb stealth Zerg is already at seemingly every mile gate) are going to make it nearly impossible to get kill RPs outside of the occasional clean 1v1 against a tank or 1H melee.

I think your suggested change is a good one if your goal is fitting them in to tank groups, but I think that’s just about all it will improve. It is unlikely a small man would rather have a Warden over another caster or a proper melee dps because they are bringing a 15% haste. Why would I want 15% extra damage when I could just add 100% via another fighter or more effective utility and damage via something like a mentalist.

It’s a tough thing to fix without going overboard or messing up balance in an aspect of the game. If it were up to me we’d see a lot of granular balance changes and experimental abilities through instant 50 and early launch to try to find something that works for not only the Warden, but all the classes/specs that need some love.

I think you're probably right, I'm just trying to be reasonable and I didn't think of it like that because I know what I can do with a warden and it's not what the average person can do. I will be fine on one with some rank, but I see your reasoning for suggesting what you are.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 12:46 AM by Rexoo

Ohhh, i like the idea

But as long there is skills like PA from stealth, and 2 handed, that hit almost as fast as a 1 hander, and that more or less all the time bypass the shield and (parry). And cost nothing / with all the end reg, we can get in the game. And when even a Thane can nuke you down. (What a joke) A shield has no point. Overall in this game, the " Tanky (Points in parry, shield and the use of Plate" protection idea, is a waist of time - Sorry

Sun 11 Nov 2018 3:06 AM by Abattoir

I'd like to be able to run more than 1 chant at a time. All of them preferred.

Group Endo Regen/redux

Rear snare @ 21-25 weapon spec

Cure NS (Friar warden I would say shammy but they don't need help so put it on Thane)

Celerity, both casted and da/chant ( this will do very little for a solo warden as we are near cap with a 1 handed weapon anyway)

Heal proc/hot

Basicly most things they can do now on live BESIDES shield spec/extra points

Tue 4 Dec 2018 3:21 AM by Lawdawg

Shield spec without Essence Flames still makes the warden meh in melee . I ran a firby warden (against the warden code, right?) the other night, first testing the solo viability (39 blades i think it was). I got beat down pretty easy, solo. Then ran some 8 man (5 natty, because why would any hib 8 man run anything else?). I added resists, pbt to the group and charged in, interrupting and harassing healers (shooting my bow a lot, if i got rooted. very effective, btw) , or sometimes assisting a BM (why would there be any other tank in the group?..). Oh, and I threw a heal here and there, but with 2 bards and 2 druids in the group, umm...yea... We wrecked everything. The mid tanker, the alb caster, didnt really matter. Don't get me wrong, the right players can play any realm and win, so take that out of the conversation. Shield spec really wouldnt have made that much of a difference, particularly if I was sacrificing something else to get it.

Throw in a dd proc style, or EF like style, and then we can talk adding shield spec as a viable option to make a "melee" warden. Until then, it's fine like it is, in a hybrid support role, in my opinion.