KISS or Keep it Simple Stupid. Is less more?

I think it is pretty cool that the devs try new things here but I am wondering if people may log in the game and be bewildered by the sheer number of custom changes to the game.

Is there a point where you can go too far with custom changes or not?

I'm sure they are balancing stuff and adjusting stuff when they try new stuff.

Stuff stuff.

In the end I am down for custom, different changes, etc, but it should be balanced and risk vs reward should be also balanced.

Thoughts?

Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:33 PM by Niix

If they’re making the game better and easier to approach for new people and old people that now have families it’s all for the better.

The live game always made changes and added expansions as time went on, why would his be any different.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 4:39 PM by aso

til now they didnt go to far.
we all know what happened when stick on 1.65 till death

Thu 30 Aug 2018 10:58 PM by Armsmancer

This post is a concern troll because the changes are being well received, and you're wanting to be more conservative about this server's ruleset and custom changes and you cannot appeal to the majority so you're appealing to nature/genetics of how it "should" be closer to pure daoc patch at that time.

Most of this stuff is self evident, if people don't like it they won't play here. The real test will be when there's a other QOL server with more liberal or conservative changes from 1.65 and see where people choose to play.

Also, you can do a survey monkey about "balance" and a 8v8er and a pve'er and a RP'er and a crafter and a casual .... you're going to get wildly different views of what is "balanced" so saying "I think this server should be balanced" is silly. Just be honest and say it is too fast/easy for you now and a casual will come in saying he's 1/10th the way to where you are now and he loves the changes...

Thu 30 Aug 2018 11:54 PM by Geek

Block Relvinian

Fri 31 Aug 2018 5:43 AM by Magesty

Dark Age of Camelot is a relic of a time long past. A time when MMORPGs were just screaming fledglings competing with their naked nest mates for scraps. As ignorant savages we looked on. More than impressed with what we were seeing. A sharp beak here, intelligent eyes there; never mind the weak and featherless bodies.

We knew no better then.

We had partied like it was 1999 and survived Y2K, but despite the auspicious start the new millennium had brought with it a terrible sort of darkness. A bubble bursting and towers of prosperity crumpling. To escape to firmer ground many of us sought solice in far away realms.

The era of the RTS was ending. It was a new age. There was a new nest. With a new type of bird hatching from shiny eggs. Most of us here now found one particular fledgling from this new species to our liking. This one had gumption. A certain flair. Something that the other ones didn’t. A lot of people noticed this one too and began to watch it. How impressive it was!

Enraptured we stared at this little bird. Time flowed into the past. Most people left to see other nests and other birds. Still we watched. Nest mates came and nest mates went. The world around us changed. Occasionally some of us would be briefly taken with one of the new comers.

Our eyes always returned, however, to the one that had caught our attention so long ago. As the years flowed onwards our bodies became burdened by time and responsibility. For many of us it became harder to spend as much time watching the little bird as we had in our youth. With the passage of time our fledgling hadn’t fared well. A misshapen, flightless adult, it had tried many ways to grow strong enough to leave the nest but all had failed.

Now, over seventeen years later, it lays wheezing on the latticed nest floor. Its once fiercely intelligent eyes are clouding over. The gumption and flair that had stolen our hearts was now bleeding out with every painful breath. It had failed to thrive over and over again. Sorrow at this pitiful sight grips at our collective throats. Fear tickles our stomachs. Something must be done.

None among us know for sure how to make the bird strong again. Some, however, have been watching the nest diligently for many years. Using brilliant reasoning and impressive pattern recognition we see that the things the bird had tried in the past many times over had failed, and realize that a different approach is needed. We can’t be sure what will work, but we know it has to be substantive enough to breathe new life into this ailing creature.

Those few qualified among us step forward, and, despite the poorly voiced lamentations of the weak willed and the fear filled, begin to burn away the bird’s disease. They seek to harness the potential of the underlying core. As fires burn and ashes fall they hope that what is left will be something magnificent.

We all wait with baited breath. Once the fires stop burning will our little bird roar into the skies with a song in its heart, or will it flicker and fade like so many times before?

Fri 31 Aug 2018 2:31 PM by relvinian

Focus group looking for body cab.

LFG Task RVR.

The two lfg requests I first see when I log in.

Never seen anyone looking for a body cab healer on any daoc server.

Never seen anyone looking for task rvr on any server.

Fri 31 Aug 2018 2:43 PM by Seigmoraig

relvinian wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 2:31 PM
Focus group looking for body cab.

LFG Task RVR.

The two lfg requests I first see when I log in.

Never seen anyone looking for a body cab healer on any daoc server.

Never seen anyone looking for task rvr on any server.

So what's the problem ? i don't understand

Fri 31 Aug 2018 8:36 PM by sebbo

Seigmoraig wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 2:43 PM
So what's the problem ? i don't understand

He doesn´t play one. He generally struggles to find groups, thats his major problem. If he invested as much effort into the game as he invests in useless forum threads, he´d be one of the top players of DAoC worldwide.

Fri 31 Aug 2018 9:57 PM by Whitecrow

Look at Football most sports or even games like counter strike and cod and even the new PubG.

What makes them all successful watched and played today.

Its due to them all changeing modernisation and keeping there customers and fans happy and haveing fun and keeping with the times.

DAOC can be changed modernised to be the same mythic blew it with TOA and Catacombs.

Success has come from quicker faster action and more skilled based = playing field for casuals

make the game skill based not time based and you could be better then any modern gameing server out there and attract thousands of players.

You make the old game of daoc were people with low skill but loads free time who can gain abilities quicker dominant then this server will die like every other daoc server.

Keep 80% casuals server is a success.
Loose 10% hardcore free time waster daoc players no big deal.
10% hardcore timer wasters still stay

Loose 80% casual left with 10% hardcore time wasters and bits pieces server fails.

You have keep 80% casuals and attract new blood even if you loose some players who don't like change. Keep the many get rid of few.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 5:00 AM by relvinian

I'm just trying to exchange ideas concerning a game we all play.

My end goal is to have a fun server to play on with lots of people.

The end.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 5:21 AM by Fk_

relvinian wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 2:31 PM
Focus group looking for body cab.

LFG Task RVR.

The two lfg requests I first see when I log in.

Never seen anyone looking for a body cab healer on any daoc server.

Never seen anyone looking for task rvr on any server.

LFG Doppleganger group.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 6:38 AM by Armsmancer

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Sep 2018 5:00 AM
I'm just trying to exchange ideas concerning a game we all play.

My end goal is to have a fun server to play on with lots of people.

The end.

No, you framed this all on the side of going in a particular direction. A post you are describing is something like "How does everyone like the changes" not "is less more?" this clearly is siding with less changes. News people do this disingenuous stuff all the time. This isn't asked with a neutral tone, it is a leading question asking us all to reconsider things as they are and hinting at maybe not doing more changes.

The population and constant action on this server vs. some others already answer your question. I mentioned this before about it being self evident : if you constantly see groups doing things and players logging in, even moreso on a beta where there will be a wipe, indicates less is not more, what is here is attracting players. Maybe you should go down to a starbucks and ask everyone in line to reconsider their orders because they should reconsider what they like.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:04 AM by relvinian

I went and read my original post again.

Not seeing that.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 8:51 AM by vitu

don’t feed the troll, just lock this thread already.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 12:19 PM by Geek

I think this thread should be renamed, not locked. How about:

"Phoenix Adds Too Many QoL Changes...You Won't Believe What Happens Next!"

-click-

Sat 1 Sep 2018 1:37 PM by Warjon

Rev I think your threads are on. Your Alchemist thread to me points out that we will all need one. I hate DAOC crafting, so that is huge. This thread, to extend that thought, makes me think pots empower stealth groups. All ready a sore point for many. I do think they can go too far, and probably will. Just adding all QOL features one can think of Will unbalance things.

The ease of this server has made getting into action easier, so the usual people raced off into action, since there is none on Uth2 really. I do not see that as a sign that this server will retain players or casuals. The BGs, which were always my favorite, will help but split the pop too. Xp off and RPs off will mean many will never see RvR. I'm seeing twinks with an alchemist. No "off" capabilities will just mean less twinking.

Even with QOL changes if the usual EU pre mades all come, and they will, the unorganized will be farmed and quit. The question remains is if a NA population can develop a game without the Uth1 timezone crowd being on. The Only hope for that is QOL changes that Uth2 didn't have.

/shrug time will tell. In the least I see a winter of fun here. If NA doesn't log in with the new QOL changes then DAOC is just too old and play styles too different to support a high pop.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 2:26 PM by relvinian

It's incredibly interesting to me how people can react to simple questions.

If I wanted to exploit the current situation I would play a speed or stealth class and get to lvl 34 and turn xp off.

Then I would run around the entire time trying to find people to kill either in the bgs or wherever.

Once you get to 3l0 you could then decide what to do. Go into frontier exclusively? Turn xp on and do item xp to 50?

Dunno.

Stealthers here already get mos for free. When I read that I knew that stealthers would dominate the solo game bigtime here.

Read it in the wiki, knew at that exact moment stealthers would dominate. But like you said, stealthers will all need pots.

Might not need to make them. Just make two toons, one universally desired pve toon and one stealther locked at 34.9

Here is another thought. Will there be any action? Maybe those who want the solo game can lock their level and find it.

If you all agree on say 30 and meet in frontier, if the fg rolls you, at least they get nothing for it.

If you want to pvp, meet in bg is also an option.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 4:26 PM by Armsmancer

I already broke this down Barney style I can't go further than I already have, but will try once more. This post asks a leading question. If you don't see that you don't understand grammar and language is why. You can replace a noun here to expose it, like "Are taxes too high?" then pretend you are asking from a neutral position. You have an indication in the question that leads to want to start from a point further than the neutral zero middle on a line graph, you're leading the question to have others consider it is too far to the right form the get-go, instead of zero'ing it out and asking pros and cons of it going either direction. Your post accommodates it moving to the right as being too much (too many changes) to be at, and makes no such accommodation for if it being on the left if it is too little. This is mathematically biased in this case, and so is your original question as it doesn't start at 0, it starts with "this is to the right of zero, isn't that too much?"

Again, asking it from a neutral position of "what does everyone think of all the custom changes?" is a neutral position. Your post asks a different question as I exposed above.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 4:54 PM by Quik

I personally feel a server can never have too many QoL changes as long as it doesn't ruin the balance of the game.

Most QoL have been great and I love them. Eggs, Phoenix Feathers, xp boost, etc.

I have 2 issues that I feel will end up killing the server and I know I am probably the only one that feels this way...

1) Pots. Too powerful and easy to make. Blue Endo pots giving perma sprint/perma styles along with tripots as powerful as they are. Good bye to all self buffing classes IMHO. Rangers/Hunters/Champions/Thanes/Paladins/Friars will be the main casualties. People want to keep saying pots will have no impact but you can see it in beta already. The new action from tasks has just brought it that much more into the limelight for me. I have done a lot of 8mans and a few small mans and I so RARELY see any of these classes because their special abilities have been taken away or nullified. If people think Pots aren't OP think on this, now that you have had all the pots as they are, how would you do if they were taken away? All I hear is that pots are needed to be competitive and that is completely false. With pots we are on equal ground with 6 classes so watered down no one plays them except for the friars HoT. Without pots we would still be on equal ground except now self buffs would be much more important and those same 6 classes (minus pally he needs more work) would stand out more.

2) Casual vs Elite. This is the hardest thing to overcome in any game, but modern games have adapted to keep things more fun. DAoC has never been a forgiving game at any time for a casual player, but the fact that so many elite players flip out when you talk about trying to do things to keep the casuals here because they want to feel super uber. Lots of ideas have been posted, and you can see how quickly the elite crowd just jumps in to quell any changes. I love the "They need to get better" argument. It will happen to a small degree, but not really. People have families and jobs now and won't be able to dedicate 20 hours a week to the game. You will have your casual player who will hit 50 since that is easy, then they will play in RvR for a bit because it will be competitive at first, but after a few weeks and they are getting rolled all the time they will move on to another game. Just like Uth2...just like Genesis...just like every freeshard ever to exist. Without casuals the server will not thrive. It will end up with 300-500 players at prime time and some of those will be the same elite players screaming that casuals don't matter, and the rest will be a few casuals trying to see what this wonderful game is like, before quitting once they hit RvR.

I hope the server does well, I just have a bad feeling it will go the same path every other free shard has taken. I doubt I will play much more in beta. I have turned in a LOT of bug issues as well as balance ideas, some implemented and some not, and don't want to burn myself out.

With pots like they are I just don't see my wife and I really putting as much time into the game as we would like, but we'll see when it goes live.

Either way I see where Relv is coming from, I just feel more QoL is better as long as they don't imbalance the game.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 5:16 PM by Ganaka

Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Sep 2018 4:54 PM
I personally feel a server can never have too many QoL changes as long as it doesn't ruin the balance of the game.

Most QoL have been great and I love them. Eggs, Phoenix Feathers, xp boost, etc.

I have 2 issues that I feel will end up killing the server and I know I am probably the only one that feels this way...

1) Pots. Too powerful and easy to make. Blue Endo pots giving perma sprint/perma styles along with tripots as powerful as they are. Good bye to all self buffing classes IMHO. Rangers/Hunters/Champions/Thanes/Paladins/Friars will be the main casualties. People want to keep saying pots will have no impact but you can see it in beta already. The new action from tasks has just brought it that much more into the limelight for me. I have done a lot of 8mans and a few small mans and I so RARELY see any of these classes because their special abilities have been taken away or nullified. If people think Pots aren't OP think on this, now that you have had all the pots as they are, how would you do if they were taken away? All I hear is that pots are needed to be competitive and that is completely false. With pots we are on equal ground with 6 classes so watered down no one plays them except for the friars HoT. Without pots we would still be on equal ground except now self buffs would be much more important and those same 6 classes (minus pally he needs more work) would stand out more.

2) Casual vs Elite. This is the hardest thing to overcome in any game, but modern games have adapted to keep things more fun. DAoC has never been a forgiving game at any time for a casual player, but the fact that so many elite players flip out when you talk about trying to do things to keep the casuals here because they want to feel super uber. Lots of ideas have been posted, and you can see how quickly the elite crowd just jumps in to quell any changes. I love the "They need to get better" argument. It will happen to a small degree, but not really. People have families and jobs now and won't be able to dedicate 20 hours a week to the game. You will have your casual player who will hit 50 since that is easy, then they will play in RvR for a bit because it will be competitive at first, but after a few weeks and they are getting rolled all the time they will move on to another game. Just like Uth2...just like Genesis...just like every freeshard ever to exist. Without casuals the server will not thrive. It will end up with 300-500 players at prime time and some of those will be the same elite players screaming that casuals don't matter, and the rest will be a few casuals trying to see what this wonderful game is like, before quitting once they hit RvR.

I hope the server does well, I just have a bad feeling it will go the same path every other free shard has taken. I doubt I will play much more in beta. I have turned in a LOT of bug issues as well as balance ideas, some implemented and some not, and don't want to burn myself out.

With pots like they are I just don't see my wife and I really putting as much time into the game as we would like, but we'll see when it goes live.

Either way I see where Relv is coming from, I just feel more QoL is better as long as they don't imbalance the game.

All of this, I agree with.

Tue 4 Sep 2018 3:23 AM by jhaerik

I'd argue that Catacombs/DR were the best x-pacs. They were just tainted by the trash that was ToA.

Also again what's the point of forcing 1 character play? The game is a billion years old and simple AF... gets boring running 1. and pots are a pita.

I mean check Uthgard stats and tell me how good 1.65 with no buff bots is for keeping a player base..

Game Server: Online Players: 59 Created Accounts: 56714 Created Characters: 176988

I remember when they had a full server and a couple thousand in queue...

Tue 4 Sep 2018 9:49 PM by Warjon

As on Uth Quik sums up what many of us are thinking.

Tue 4 Sep 2018 11:19 PM by Armsmancer

Speak for yourself. Saying pots are "goodbye buffing classes" , Please. I've never seen any group in any realm turn away an addition to the group because they got blue buffs. Give me a break. Can any of you point to anything objective instead of this "one time at a bandit camp" stories? I'll wait, and pack a lunch for this one.

Sun 9 Sep 2018 11:44 AM by jhaerik

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Sep 2018 11:19 PM
Speak for yourself. Saying pots are "goodbye buffing classes" , Please. I've never seen any group in any realm turn away an addition to the group because they got blue buffs. Give me a break. Can any of you point to anything objective instead of this "one time at a bandit camp" stories? I'll wait, and pack a lunch for this one.

No but a lot of solo fights will be lost without tons of PvE pot farmings.

Easier/better just to add bots or Realm Buffs.

Sun 9 Sep 2018 7:51 PM by Armsmancer

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Sep 2018 11:44 AM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Sep 2018 11:19 PM
Speak for yourself. Saying pots are "goodbye buffing classes" , Please. I've never seen any group in any realm turn away an addition to the group because they got blue buffs. Give me a break. Can any of you point to anything objective instead of this "one time at a bandit camp" stories? I'll wait, and pack a lunch for this one.

No but a lot of solo fights will be lost without tons of PvE pot farmings.

Easier/better just to add bots or Realm Buffs.

13g 10 charge invig pots and others around the same price for all others in each realm

dying in pve and restoring your constitution costs more than 100 minutes of buffs

mountain vs molehill I wonder which one this whine is

Tue 11 Sep 2018 1:58 PM by Hanshi

Well its simple. pots kill the other classes. This IS NOT a 1.65 server regardless of the real estate. I keep hoping for fixes etc to the things i have reported but still not happening. With all the changes, yes i think they pushed it a lil too far. I quit playing beta, server seems to be progressing to a place i dont think stays with the 1.65 era.
While you can quote the "its beta" bs all day facts show for themselves. Changing RA etc to make it the way THEY wish it to be.. who gives a rats but about det when ya need 34 pts to even think about making it viable(without stocism its weak no matter what ya say) points better off elsewhere. The Mos change was implemented on live about 2 yrs ago..so yeah this is 1.65? If ya gonna implement mechanics form 2016 why not fix friars,pally etc? Many qol stuff is nice, the accnt vault..ponies etc..but but the rvr changes ..why? If you dont rvr you shudnt get rps...Period. Lets talk about the cheat s for a sec. Speed cheat ok...Macroed attacks ..ok, I have even seen the see the sneak cheat a few times too. All seemed to be allowed. just dont dual log...
Yes i think they going too far in 1 direction. I hope things get ironed out before final launch. (not even going to go into the iron fisted close mindedness of the devs at this time..can only type so much before carpal tunnel).

Tue 11 Sep 2018 9:28 PM by Armsmancer

Hanshi wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Sep 2018 1:58 PM
Well its simple. pots kill the other classes. This IS NOT a 1.65 server regardless of the real estate. I keep hoping for fixes etc to the things i have reported but still not happening. With all the changes, yes i think they pushed it a lil too far. I quit playing beta, server seems to be progressing to a place i dont think stays with the 1.65 era.
While you can quote the "its beta" bs all day facts show for themselves. Changing RA etc to make it the way THEY wish it to be.. who gives a rats but about det when ya need 34 pts to even think about making it viable(without stocism its weak no matter what ya say) points better off elsewhere. The Mos change was implemented on live about 2 yrs ago..so yeah this is 1.65? If ya gonna implement mechanics form 2016 why not fix friars,pally etc? Many qol stuff is nice, the accnt vault..ponies etc..but but the rvr changes ..why? If you dont rvr you shudnt get rps...Period. Lets talk about the cheat s for a sec. Speed cheat ok...Macroed attacks ..ok, I have even seen the see the sneak cheat a few times too. All seemed to be allowed. just dont dual log...
Yes i think they going too far in 1 direction. I hope things get ironed out before final launch. (not even going to go into the iron fisted close mindedness of the devs at this time..can only type so much before carpal tunnel).

lol jesus people,

saying : "Well its simple. pots kill the other classes." is an unjustified presupposition. Please present any info or data you have showing this to be the case. You cannot simply declare it by fiat and expect everyone to just fall in, many disagree with you, and going into a "nunt uh!!! yuh huhhh!" defense and offense is better left on a playground.

Again, can any of you tell us even something anecdotal like "i walked up to a feather group on my friar and they turned me away because they said while they had a free spot, they all have potions in their inventory and for me to go away"

No, you can't, and its for the same reason the presupposition is unjustified, it isn't true. At least until any info comes from you or others saying it is the case besides the source being your butt. We'll keep waiting, another week or two going now since I put out this challenge, for any of you to come up with something that isn't patently absurd like "this feature that is in every incarnation of daoc since its inception, on every official and private server, kills X spec class!!!!"

Tue 11 Sep 2018 9:51 PM by relvinian

This is a basic question about KISS and going too far.

I personally liked 1.87 with new frontiers in a classic server without toa but champ levels like on gareth when I played.

Everyone is going to have their own favorite version of daoc but what matters most is a working server.

If you can get rr 9 in 2 weeks something aint working.

Tue 11 Sep 2018 9:57 PM by Vkejai

Give Friars heal proc styles and all will be well in the world !

Tue 11 Sep 2018 9:59 PM by Armsmancer

"If you can get rr 9 in 2 weeks something aint working."

said as if someone not online all the time without a job and not having to be a specific class that can solo and speed / stealth for easy kills can attain this

when the latest WoW expansion came out some guy hit 120 in a day

based on your logic they should upend the entire xp system and rethink things from the foundation because "something aint working"

solution is to look at the mean, not the extreme , some things will be under powered, some will be over, but you'll have a bigger player base by not focusing on extreme situations, like a stealther speed class that had purple pets speeding around with a smallman/solo huge RP bonus for weeks and acting like thats everyone's experience

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

pls stops with all the logical fallacies ya'll these are textbook

Wed 12 Sep 2018 4:37 AM by relvinian

I think I fell asleep during your post.

Wed 12 Sep 2018 5:19 AM by Geek

Oooo Relv with a shot! This guy..this guy right here is making his mark.

Wed 12 Sep 2018 9:02 AM by

Uthred

Would you two please stick to the topic and stop telling how much love you feel for each other? Thx.

Wed 12 Sep 2018 1:52 PM by relvinian

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Sep 2018 9:02 AM
Would you two please stick to the topic and stop telling how much love you feel for each other? Thx.

The actual topic is relevant. And since I made it, others have talked about issues with tasks and how it changed the game.

And now you can see people suiciding and running to the next task.

And, also, you can see people getting lots of rps quickly. Which maybe there needs to be caps put in place for daily rp gain like there are egg gains.

So many per hour. Or other ways to deal with this such as no tasks below 35, or curtailed. No tasks over rr5, or curtailed.

I'm very serious about my post and it was made in a non-toxic way. A couple of these people seem to have personal feelings one way or the other about me or daoc or something.

Since it does seem to be personal if there was a block feature I would block them.

I think what would be great is a block account feature that blocks someone both on the board and their entire account ingame.

Lots of people would use it on me. And the funny thing is, if they hate me that much, it would be doing me a favor.

Wed 12 Sep 2018 5:30 PM by Armsmancer

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Sep 2018 4:37 AM
I think I fell asleep during your post.

Then posts a larger post than mine right after.

Wed 12 Sep 2018 5:33 PM by Armsmancer

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Sep 2018 9:02 AM
Would you two please stick to the topic and stop telling how much love you feel for each other? Thx.

Point ---> Counterpoint isn't working here what else is there to do

Thu 13 Sep 2018 4:46 PM by Warjon

Rel there is a block feature here. Just click on name and make them a foe. Works great!

When people are suiciding you know things have gone too far.

Thu 13 Sep 2018 5:02 PM by relvinian

Warjon wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Sep 2018 4:46 PM
Rel there is a block feature here. Just click on name and make them a foe. Works great!

When people are suiciding you know things have gone too far.

OMG, I love you.

Thu 13 Sep 2018 8:13 PM by Geek

relvinian wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Sep 2018 5:02 PM
Warjon wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Sep 2018 4:46 PM
Rel there is a block feature here. Just click on name and make them a foe. Works great!

When people are suiciding you know things have gone too far.

OMG, I love you.

Can you still see my post?

Fri 14 Sep 2018 9:05 PM by relvinian

Back to the point.

I just don't get the development map at times here.

1. Heal pets don't work.
2. Basic functions of some classes don't work.
3. But Arena
4. But football.
5. No insta 50 or gear or rr. OK, I just tested a no gear newb vs a rr 9 shadowblade. What did we learn? What did we test?
But, it's your fault, relvinian, you should have temped 50's and crafters for days. WHY? Why am I supposed to work to test?
6. And also, KISS, I think some of this is not recognizable as DAOC. Less is sometimes more.

**Can you communicate your development plan somewhere?**

**Can you tell me what we are "testing" right now?**

I know this is an awful negative sounding post, and I apologize, but where is this server going?

Since insta 40, do we assume that all content below 40 is finished?

Are classes finished?

Are we then testing content between 40 and 50?

Fri 14 Sep 2018 9:58 PM by chryso

You are complaining that you have to work to test. They are working to build this place.
Their pay is the same as yours.
Dude, seriously, give it a rest.

Fri 14 Sep 2018 11:08 PM by Magesty

relvinian wrote: ↑
Fri 14 Sep 2018 9:05 PM
Back to the point.

I just don't get the development map at times here.

1. Heal pets don't work.
2. Basic functions of some classes don't work.
3. But Arena
4. But football.
5. No insta 50 or gear or rr. OK, I just tested a no gear newb vs a rr 9 shadowblade. What did we learn? What did we test?
But, it's your fault, relvinian, you should have temped 50's and crafters for days. WHY? Why am I supposed to work to test?
6. And also, KISS, I think some of this is not recognizable as DAOC. Less is sometimes more.

**Can you communicate your development plan somewhere?**

**Can you tell me what we are "testing" right now?**

I know this is an awful negative sounding post, and I apologize, but where is this server going?

Since insta 40, do we assume that all content below 40 is finished?

Are classes finished?

Are we then testing content between 40 and 50?

This post reeks of entitlement.

Do things like the arena system seem like a colossal waste of development time? Absolutely. Could this time be better spent improving things like classic dungeons, lesser used SI dungeons, or zones like Llyn Barfog? Yes, probably. Could it be used to fix other basic class issues like those you have mentioned? Sure, it seems like it could. Does having instant 40 make much sense to most of the player base? I’m going to go with a big no on that one, boss.

Are the devs beholden to us for playing on their server? No, they aren’t. It is their prerogative to spend time making the arena system. It is their prerogative to allocate resources however they’d like. There is even the smallest chance that they know things that we don’t about the steps in their development cycle. Unfortunately this is essentially a one-way transaction and patience may be required.

We are playing DAoC for free on a server they are all dedicating time to creating and maintaining. “Testing” (read: playing DAoC) doesn’t make us entitled to anything. If you are having issues getting characters geared then just template a couple you want to “test” (play) now and wait for i50. It’s really not that hard to manage. Budget templates are perfectly viable and easy to make using the highest utility jewelry from /leveling, the necklace quest, and PC’d gear.

My advice: be patient. These devs seem to understand that communication is vital to keeping a happy player base and I’m sure that we will eventually be informed about the development cycle. They’d be foolish not to do so. It is a good practice to voice your opinion when you disagree with something, but if you’re getting riled up about a beta it might be time to take a break until i50. Unless, of course, you have nothing better to do?

Fri 14 Sep 2018 11:12 PM by relvinian

I agree 100% but you forget the simple fact that all players are entitled. This is what they do for fun.

For fun equals entitled.

I apologize again for the negative tone of my post.

I have leveled about 5 toons to 50 from 40 to test them.

I don't feel entitled. I feel like someone who is working to hard to test something.

Sat 15 Sep 2018 1:18 AM by Geek

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 14 Sep 2018 11:08 PM
Do things like the arena system seem like a colossal waste of development time? Absolutely. Could this time be better spent improving things like classic dungeons, lesser used SI dungeons, or zones like Llyn Barfog? Yes, probably. Could it be used to fix other basic class issues like those you have mentioned? Sure, it seems like it could. Does having instant 40 make much sense to most of the player base? I’m going to go with a big no on that one, boss.

Are the devs beholden to us for playing on their server? No, they aren’t. It is their prerogative to spend time making the arena system. It is their prerogative to allocate resources however they’d like. There is even the smallest chance that they know things that we don’t about the steps in their development cycle. Unfortunately this is essentially a one-way transaction and patience may be required.

We are playing DAoC for free on a server they are all dedicating time to creating and maintaining. “Testing” (read: playing DAoC) doesn’t make us entitled to anything. If you are having issues getting characters geared then just template a couple you want to “test” (play) now and wait for i50. It’s really not that hard to manage. Budget templates are perfectly viable and easy to make using the highest utility jewelry from /leveling, the necklace quest, and PC’d gear.

My advice: be patient. These devs seem to understand that communication is vital to keeping a happy player base and I’m sure that we will eventually be informed about the development cycle. They’d be foolish not to do so. It is a good practice to voice your opinion when you disagree with something, but if you’re getting riled up about a beta it might be time to take a break until i50. Unless, of course, you have nothing better to do?

Does this post ask a lot of questions and then answer them? Yes it does.

Sat 15 Sep 2018 5:41 AM by

Uthred

The anwer is quite simple. As long as we havent fixed most of the rvr-relevant bugs and as long as we havent implemented all keep-siege-rvr-tasks-relics-things, there will be no i50.

In other words: please be patience and yes, it will still take "some" time to put all these things in.

Sat 15 Sep 2018 9:11 AM by Ceen

Just my thoughts but gruenesschaf probably left the uthgard project to build his own server since he wants to not only copy paste but code his own ideas.
I guess all the arena zergball event stuff keeps him entertaint and keeps up the spirit

Mon 17 Sep 2018 5:18 PM by Dis

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Sep 2018 9:28 PM
Hanshi wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Sep 2018 1:58 PM
Well its simple. pots kill the other classes. This IS NOT a 1.65 server regardless of the real estate. I keep hoping for fixes etc to the things i have reported but still not happening. With all the changes, yes i think they pushed it a lil too far. I quit playing beta, server seems to be progressing to a place i dont think stays with the 1.65 era.
While you can quote the "its beta" bs all day facts show for themselves. Changing RA etc to make it the way THEY wish it to be.. who gives a rats but about det when ya need 34 pts to even think about making it viable(without stocism its weak no matter what ya say) points better off elsewhere. The Mos change was implemented on live about 2 yrs ago..so yeah this is 1.65? If ya gonna implement mechanics form 2016 why not fix friars,pally etc? Many qol stuff is nice, the accnt vault..ponies etc..but but the rvr changes ..why? If you dont rvr you shudnt get rps...Period. Lets talk about the cheat s for a sec. Speed cheat ok...Macroed attacks ..ok, I have even seen the see the sneak cheat a few times too. All seemed to be allowed. just dont dual log...
Yes i think they going too far in 1 direction. I hope things get ironed out before final launch. (not even going to go into the iron fisted close mindedness of the devs at this time..can only type so much before carpal tunnel).

lol jesus people,

saying : "Well its simple. pots kill the other classes." is an unjustified presupposition. Please present any info or data you have showing this to be the case. You cannot simply declare it by fiat and expect everyone to just fall in, many disagree with you, and going into a "nunt uh!!! yuh huhhh!" defense and offense is better left on a playground.

Again, can any of you tell us even something anecdotal like "i walked up to a feather group on my friar and they turned me away because they said while they had a free spot, they all have potions in their inventory and for me to go away"

No, you can't, and its for the same reason the presupposition is unjustified, it isn't true. At least until any info comes from you or others saying it is the case besides the source being your butt. We'll keep waiting, another week or two going now since I put out this challenge, for any of you to come up with something that isn't patently absurd like "this feature that is in every incarnation of daoc since its inception, on every official and private server, kills X spec class!!!!"

i´ll tell you something, since ur downtalkin every thread who is kinda "against" the setup, rules and progress of the phoenix server, i think everybody knows how much love you have for the devs work and the server itself. it makes me sick to read your wall of text in every 2nd thread i read.
relvinian is right if he is talkin about pots are a problem, it creates a huge difference in solo and group play. if we are talkin about paper daoc, u can have it sure...i´m not talkin about soloplay, if you watching the whole change, shamans dont need to waste 8 out of 20 buffs for endu, 5nat hibgrps running with bards, who dont even have to change to endusong. albs would need a paladin in grp to get rid of the enduproblem, but all that problems solved by buffing the pots/regsystem overall. some realms having more advantages with that buff then others in my opinion. if you think about the solo rvr, its a big difference for selfbuff classes, but both players can get it, i dont see any problem.
relvinian is talkin about:

--> RP gain is to simply to high, tasks, solokills etc...
--> u can die for gettin rp´s
--> this isnt even i50 or the liveversion of the server, this will be totaly different situation, since i think it will be +1000 or more players then.
--> and yes i think hes right of just stop the custom changes allready and start the balance part and the fine-tuning things of the server to make it better.

i talked about the situation in rvr too and i got crushed by the same arguments here. people downtalkin facts. if you are talkin about an only casual server who are running/wipe from task to task the whole day 24/7 and get rps for it, then ur right, this server isnt for me then, we are just 8man, if 2000 people loves that, i rather dont play daoc if this will happen, because its a no fun criterium for me, i have 2 children on my own and have time to play for like 3 hours a day, i wont spend them on tasking in a zergball, but thats MY OPINION.
rp gain is just stupid, people are talkin about tasks starting to get low at rr5 blabla, if i log my cleric and i play for like 1,5 hours, i never logged without 25k+ rps.
on live there will be some people who are reaching rr10 within 3 months and i´m not talkin about the 24/7 faction, i´m talkin about the taskboys who are soloing sometimes.

but i´m done reading and creating threads since thats the aim for the server, keep the casual way of fun to play alive and implement a sorry i have to say this "retarded pvp arena system" for the rest of the non casuals.
i could write and write books about it, but i´m done here, because the next post of armsmancer will even be longer then my...dont do it since i wont read your trash anymore.

Mon 17 Sep 2018 5:22 PM by Armsmancer

Dis wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Sep 2018 5:18 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Sep 2018 9:28 PM
Hanshi wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Sep 2018 1:58 PM
Well its simple. pots kill the other classes. This IS NOT a 1.65 server regardless of the real estate. I keep hoping for fixes etc to the things i have reported but still not happening. With all the changes, yes i think they pushed it a lil too far. I quit playing beta, server seems to be progressing to a place i dont think stays with the 1.65 era.
While you can quote the "its beta" bs all day facts show for themselves. Changing RA etc to make it the way THEY wish it to be.. who gives a rats but about det when ya need 34 pts to even think about making it viable(without stocism its weak no matter what ya say) points better off elsewhere. The Mos change was implemented on live about 2 yrs ago..so yeah this is 1.65? If ya gonna implement mechanics form 2016 why not fix friars,pally etc? Many qol stuff is nice, the accnt vault..ponies etc..but but the rvr changes ..why? If you dont rvr you shudnt get rps...Period. Lets talk about the cheat s for a sec. Speed cheat ok...Macroed attacks ..ok, I have even seen the see the sneak cheat a few times too. All seemed to be allowed. just dont dual log...
Yes i think they going too far in 1 direction. I hope things get ironed out before final launch. (not even going to go into the iron fisted close mindedness of the devs at this time..can only type so much before carpal tunnel).

lol jesus people,

saying : "Well its simple. pots kill the other classes." is an unjustified presupposition. Please present any info or data you have showing this to be the case. You cannot simply declare it by fiat and expect everyone to just fall in, many disagree with you, and going into a "nunt uh!!! yuh huhhh!" defense and offense is better left on a playground.

Again, can any of you tell us even something anecdotal like "i walked up to a feather group on my friar and they turned me away because they said while they had a free spot, they all have potions in their inventory and for me to go away"

No, you can't, and its for the same reason the presupposition is unjustified, it isn't true. At least until any info comes from you or others saying it is the case besides the source being your butt. We'll keep waiting, another week or two going now since I put out this challenge, for any of you to come up with something that isn't patently absurd like "this feature that is in every incarnation of daoc since its inception, on every official and private server, kills X spec class!!!!"

i´ll tell you something, since ur downtalkin every thread who is kinda "against" the setup, rules and progress of the phoenix server, i think everybody knows how much love you have for the devs work and the server itself. it makes me sick to read your wall of text in every 2nd thread i read.
relvinian is right if he is talkin about pots are a problem, it creates a huge difference in solo and group play. if we are talkin about paper daoc, u can have it sure...i´m not talkin about soloplay, if you watching the whole change, shamans dont need to waste 8 out of 20 buffs for endu, 5nat hibgrps running with bards, who dont even have to change to endusong. albs would need a paladin in grp to get rid of the enduproblem, but all that problems solved by buffing the pots/regsystem overall. some realms having more advantages with that buff then others in my opinion. if you think about the solo rvr, its a big difference for selfbuff classes, but both players can get it, i dont see any problem.
relvinian is talkin about:

--> RP gain is to simply to high, tasks, solokills etc...
--> u can die for gettin rp´s
--> this isnt even i50 or the liveversion of the server, this will be totaly different situation, since i think it will be +1000 or more players then.
--> and yes i think hes right of just stop the custom changes allready and start the balance part and the fine-tuning things of the server to make it better.

i talked about the situation in rvr too and i got crushed by the same arguments here. people downtalkin facts. if you are talkin about an only casual server who are running/wipe from task to task the whole day 24/7 and get rps for it, then ur right, this server isnt for me then, we are just 8man, if 2000 people loves that, i rather dont play daoc if this will happen, because its a no fun criterium for me, i have 2 children on my own and have time to play for like 3 hours a day, i wont spend them on tasking in a zergball, but thats MY OPINION.
rp gain is just stupid, people are talkin about tasks starting to get low at rr5 blabla, if i log my cleric and i play for like 1,5 hours, i never logged without 25k+ rps.
on live there will be some people who are reaching rr10 within 3 months and i´m not talkin about the 24/7 faction, i´m talkin about the taskboys who are soloing sometimes.

but i´m done reading and creating threads since thats the aim for the server, keep the casual way of fun to play alive and implement a sorry i have to say this "retarded pvp arena system" for the rest of the non casuals.
i could write and write books about it, but i´m done here, because the next post of armsmancer will even be longer then my...dont do it since i wont read your trash anymore.

says i make wall of text, made up of 3 small paragraphs with like 2 sentences each

creates wall of text to complain about this that is much larger

gg

Mon 17 Sep 2018 6:30 PM by relvinian

I made armomancer my enemy and never see his posts unless someone quotes them.

I think there are some people who have the purpose in life of whatever the devs of a server say or do they support it without question.

those are the LAST people the devs should listen to.

You want someone who will tell you that Waterworld, which cost 175 million dollars to make, has huge plot problems.

Waterworld, where thousands of years have passed but the bad guys are called smokers, and all have Marlboro red cigarettes.

Someone, or their 12 year old kid, should have told Kevin Costner not to be a moron.

Listen to me:

1. DAOC is what people want and expect on a DAOC server.
2. They want fun.
3. They want a balance between work and play.
4. The want everything.
5. All this extra stuff is fine as long as all the classes work, stuff is balanced, and the main focus of the game remains DAOC.
6. If they login and its football, arena, and suiciding on guards to get rps, I'm not sure that is what they are looking for.
7. There is a chance that some might people might like that game. But there is a chance some people might quit.
8. population is literally EVERYTHING on a daoc server.
9. Can't be too easy. Can't be too hard.
10 Most important the players and devs have to build it together and agree on stuff. If Devs shove changes down the players throats it doesn't end well.

BTW, I apologize again, if this is hyperbole, or harsh. Sometimes when everyone is saying one thing you need to speak LOUDLY

Mon 17 Sep 2018 8:08 PM by Armsmancer

None of what anyone here said meets the burden asked for. So shamans don't have to spend conc on endo buffs, who cares? That's literally how it was at this patch level and EVERY SERVER ITERATION ever since. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean anything. Nobody for like the 4th week here has been able to show in any fashion how pots are a net bad over the good.

When you have to resort to whining about how long my posts are or how frequently active I am on topics on these forums has no bearing on their validity, it is a cheap and unintelligent man's attempt to bring down someone/their argument without substance. If you had some dead-to-rights counter to how bad pots are we'd all know about it because you'd have it as exhibit A. Instead, look at what you are handing us "your posts are too long!" "you post too much here!" are not some take down of me, and definitely not meeting the burden here.

Ad hominems do not win arguments. Get on my level. I don't go through your post history or some crap trying to dissuade others from listening. Just do like the other ostriches and hide those mean views on the interwebs by filtering them out, embrace your confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance like the other mouth breathers here who cannot construct a valid point, and have to go after people personally.

Mon 17 Sep 2018 9:22 PM by Magesty

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Sep 2018 8:08 PM
None of what anyone here said meets the burden asked for. So shamans don't have to spend conc on endo buffs, who cares? That's literally how it was at this patch level and EVERY SERVER ITERATION ever since. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean anything. Nobody for like the 4th week here has been able to show in any fashion how pots are a net bad over the good.

When you have to resort to whining about how long my posts are or how frequently active I am on topics on these forums has no bearing on their validity, it is a cheap and unintelligent man's attempt to bring down someone/their argument without substance. If you had some dead-to-rights counter to how bad pots are we'd all know about it because you'd have it as exhibit A. Instead, look at what you are handing us "your posts are too long!" "you post too much here!" are not some take down of me, and definitely not meeting the burden here.

Ad hominems do not win arguments. Get on my level. I don't go through your post history or some crap trying to dissuade others from listening. Just do like the other ostriches and hide those mean views on the interwebs by filtering them out, embrace your confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance like the other mouth breathers here who cannot construct a valid point, and have to go after people personally.

Ignoring the conflict between you and Relvinian- here is a hasty, biased, and undoubtedly incomplete list:

Potion Pros:
1) Higher stats makes for generally more satisfying combat
2) Allows users to cut certain classes out and be more "self sufficient"
3) Gold drain helps economy to not inflate as quickly
4) Makes charges less significant

Potion Cons:
1) Having to use potions every run -- compounds "anti-fun" feeling of getting rolled by larger numbers
2) 10m timers
3) Maintenance costs
4) Eliminates the need for certain classes' keystone abilities (end regen)
5) Weakens classes that rely on self buffs relative to those that do not have them
6) Creates a further gap between 'have' and 'have nots'
6a) Inventory space usage if you cannot acquire barrels consistently

I dislike potions as a mechanic-- at least in their current form. They were added to the game with SI to give players that didn't have bot accounts an opportunity to compete with fully buffed characters. Obviously it worked about as well as you'd expect and stat buff potions were basically never seen on live servers. To me it makes sense that if you remove buff bots from a server rule set you'd also remove buff potions as they were created as a direct response to bots. This line of logic is similar to why you couldn't add Vampiirs or Warlocks to the class pool with out significant modifications. They were designed specifically for an environment with bots and a certain level of elevated stats that no longer exists.

The potion mechanic is tedious. It is an extra step & barrier to RvR combat that I don't think needs to exist. They also impact class balance. While it is on a smaller scale that buff bots, it was something that Mythic (EA) took years to correct. I do think there are some benefits to potions existing, but on the whole I'd like to see them gone, or at the very least have their timers increased to 20 or more minutes. This is coming from a player who will likely have access to an LGM alch and plenty of plat after a couple months of live. I will not have issues acquiring potions.

I'd be curious to hear why you are so adamant they are a net positive. And remember: using the argument that they have always existed as a reason they are good/should exist is a logical fallacy.

Mon 17 Sep 2018 10:58 PM by Armsmancer

Thanks for making an objective post, then following up with your stance on it, you're a rare gem here lately in contrast. You aren't appealing to feels but the reals, other posters take note please.

My response is the fact that everyone is using them means that offering the mechanic means everyone is immediately taking full advantage of them. In their current form, they are worth it.

Despite them costing money, they clearly aren't too expensive, as everyone aside from fresh 40s on a new realm and 10g are getting them. Despite them being an inventory bloater, they aren't to the degree people don't use them because of this, they just get a merchant summoner and burden very much lightened.

Despite them being available, the detriment to a class like a friar isn't demonstrable that a guy walking up to a AC farming group is gonna get turned away because "Sorry we got mediocre buffs, get lost" ---> others say this is actually happening but are unable to do anything more than tell you, somewhere out in the ether, that this is happening. I think we know everyone loves our friar brethren and would not do that to them.

You make clear points and I agree with most of them aside from my notes above, I mean who wouldn't say its annoying to carry so many around in a game you can't buy more bags for inventory space? However, I don't have to justify why something in the game should be in the game. It's in the game, it's in the game manual that came with the install discs, and every private server out there has it, the expectation is that it would be there like everything else.

The burden is on others wanting it removed. Spellcraft is in, came with the same expansion, costs lots of money, can't compete without it, many same arguments against Alchemy but nobody is calling for its removal, why? Neither of these are appealing to nature because it comes in the box and it is a given. If you want to change a given you adopt a burden that I don't anymore than why I have to explain that relic keeps "should" be in the game, they are a part of the game files if you want that changed make your case maybe even I could agree with you, but everything above at best is an annoyance and hardly worth bickering about because I'd probably eat my hat if I saw a patch note like

*fixed savage Quad damage variance
*fixed Orange luster to be Orange
*Removed Alchemy
*Pointed Steeple Hat recipe is now correctly 50c and not 50s
*Firbolgs can now have blue hair like at launch
*Various fixes to Inconnu pain sounds when hit in melee to be less like fingernails on chalkboards

And finally,

"They were added to the game with SI to give players that didn't have bot accounts an opportunity to compete with fully buffed characters. Obviously it worked about as well as you'd expect and stat buff potions were basically never seen on live servers. To me it makes sense that if you remove buff bots from a server rule set you'd also remove buff potions as they were created as a direct response to bots"

Citation needed

Tue 18 Sep 2018 1:57 AM by relvinian

I personally hate the idea of using pots every minute of game time for the rest of my play time here.

Always farming for pots or paying for them. Clicking every ten minutes.

It's annoying. That is why I pushed for buff npcs.

Classes with buffs are always going to be welcome because everyone hates using pots.

Give me some nice cleric buffs and I don't want pots.

Self buffing classes who don't need pots? They don't have to use the annoying things.

Tue 18 Sep 2018 4:17 AM by Armsmancer

Tue 18 Sep 2018 5:34 AM by Kaziera

relvinian wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Sep 2018 1:57 AM
I personally hate the idea of using pots every minute of game time for the rest of my play time here.

Always farming for pots or paying for them. Clicking every ten minutes.

It's annoying. That is why I pushed for buff npcs.

Classes with buffs are always going to be welcome because everyone hates using pots.

Give me some nice cleric buffs and I don't want pots.

Self buffing classes who don't need pots? They don't have to use the annoying things.

I preferr to work hard and get a benefit from it.

Tue 18 Sep 2018 2:17 PM by Magesty

I appreciate the compliment, thank you.

Let me break down what I'm getting from your post and address the overarching ideas.
1) Everyone is using potions in their current state so they are fine
2) They don't affect balance in PvE
3) They exist in the game already
4) Citation needed

1) While I think this argument has some validity, I also think it is a bit of a trap. Firstly the majority of players currently playing are a little more hardcore than most. I mean we are pouring hours into things that are just going to be deleted all for the love of the game. Players like us are important to a server, but the (potentially much larger) population of semi-casual players is more important to appeal to.

Secondly, of course everyone is using potions. Everyone would be using potions if they were double or triple the cost. You have to use them to compete if you aren't running with a buffer. This doesn't make them a good mechanic, just a necessary one. It's a lot like the Paladin class if you removed endo pots. Still not a good class, but everyone has to drag one around because if they don't they will be unable to compete.

Forced supplementary mechanics aren't generally a good thing for a game. This is where spell crafting separates itself from the buff potion portion of alchemy. Spell crafting is a costly necessity, but it supplements many existing entities in the game. It makes the loot system more viable, it makes crafting serve a purpose, and it creates end-game depth that the game otherwise wouldn't have. It adds to the existing structure of the game and improves it. Buff potions are not a mechanic that serve a true function outside of filling out the alchemy line and giving it more of a purpose. If you removed spell crafting the entire game would suffer. Templates would become almost impossible to assemble and there wouldn't be much of a reason to even craft. If you removed buff potions the alchemy line would be weakened, and that's about it. Personally, I think the sacrifice would be well worth it. Sorry alchemists.

2) Totally agree. I saw the post you are referencing and thought it was ridiculous. I couldn't care less about PvE balance. I want PvE'rs to be happy and find a home here, but I think trying to use it as an argument for removing potions is very weak. No group is going to refuse a friar or cleric because they have potions. That's just silly. Any problem I have with buff potions is due to the effect they have on RvR. It is undeniable that self buffing classes are comparatively weakened when every class has buffs. It is also undeniable that endurance regen potions remove the need for Paladins.

3) From a purely logical perspective I understand where you are coming from with this, but I think this line of reasoning is better applied to ontological arguments. In this case we are dealing with a game made by people in a time where they didn't know all that much about game design. Obviously arguing based on feelings isn't going to suffice, (look at those minstrel threads... brutal.) but it is important to not approach DAoC's mechanics with the same sort of reverence we might have for natural law. It is just a game made by some dudes who did a great fucking job, don't get me wrong, but didn't have the benefit of hindsight and modern game design like we do.

I think there are a lot of fundamental issues with this game, especially in the Old Frontiers setting, and I hope to see them dealt with over time. The devs have already chipped away at some of the big ones, but there is a lot more to be done. We have seen what happens when things are kept the way they were, and we have seen what happens when things are like they are on live. There is a better path. A path of righteousness.

4) There is no way I'm going to be able to find an actual citation for where I read this information. I think it might have been in an interview with developers. Possibly the same one where they discussed the catacombs classes they added and how they were trying to add some (vamp, warlock, heretic) that didn't rely on buff bots as much so those players that didn't have access to them could feel like they were competing. So I guess take it or leave it. If you think about why they would have put in buff potions in the first place it makes a lot of sense. Just from a financial perspective if they could fool a few hundred people into keeping their subs for another half a year by making them think they could compete with botted players it was worth it.

To be honest I was incensed when I realized that buff potions were going to be on this server. Not only on the server, but actually customized and made even more of an integral part of the game play. I think the mechanic is shit for reasons we have already gone over. I have since gone through several different stages and am now nearing acceptance with one major qualm-- Why is potion duration only ten fucking minutes? If the devs are going to play Catholic priest and shove this mechanic down our young, undeveloped throats, they can at least let us "enjoy" it for a little longer.

Tue 18 Sep 2018 2:48 PM by chryso

Just brainstorming here, but would it be terribly unbalancing to let self buffing class buffs stack with other buffs?

Tue 18 Sep 2018 3:36 PM by imissswg

When I first created an account here very recently, I thought it was good there would be no buffbots, but after seeing how mandatory potions will be, honestly I'd rather either go back to buffbots or eliminate buff pots. The big deterrent to bots on live was (for most) paying for a 2nd account, and that's not an issue here. I will have my own LGM alchemist as soon as I farm the plat, so this isn't an issue of me not wanting others to have something I won't. At least with a bot, I only have to rebuff when I die instead of every 10 minutes, and not have to worry about that 10 min timer constantly expiring in the middle of a keep battle.

At the very least, I think they should make self buffs stack with buff pots if they insist on going the current route, and increase the duration of pots as they did with other buffs.

Tue 18 Sep 2018 5:20 PM by Armsmancer

Blue pot buffs are a decent luxury in pve and rvr but let's be honest its not some big meta shakeup thing we should spend weeks debating, there's lots of things on a list we should probably be more concerned about than this.

I do not see some guy signing up in the forums and about to join then see that we have alchemy and blue buff pots and going "WHAT!, F YOU CAMELOTS!" and going back to playing his xbox or something.

So to finally answer: no, less is not more, and keep in mind the whole thing that started this thread was when this guy started seeing people getting task RPs and having a beef with it. He didn't die from something, he didn't have some game stoppage, its a guy seeing others succeed and he's being the crab in the bucket and the curmudgeon in the town.

Tue 18 Sep 2018 5:44 PM by Geek

Curmudgeons con yellow around level 16 if I'm not mistaken.

Tue 18 Sep 2018 9:07 PM by relvinian

Buff npcs would be very welcome to me.

Tasks need extreme nerf.

Watching people suicide into a mass of defenders is sick. Pointless. Metagame. Barf.

Makes no sense. Doesn't tell a good story. Horrid.

Not making personal attacks here. Just expressing my viewpoint of watching people suicide, run to a keep, circle jerk, then lone lemmings suiciding into the keep.

Yuck.

DAOC was strategic and tactical. This is reacting to random stuff. Got to go. Or find a way to put it back into the players power.

Mark my words:

If tasks are not changed you will have a nice roll out. Lots of players. And then there will be lots of zerging. And then it will be great.

Like socialism, which works at first. People get more free stuff and its great.

Fast forward 6 months of the server? Like socialism, which seems like a good idea at first? There will be nothing left. Just a few bored players. And a candle that burned out very fast leaving nothing left.

Tue 18 Sep 2018 11:38 PM by Armsmancer

Deleted by Uthred.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:07 AM by relvinian

If they allowed vegas bets on my predictions you wouldn't want to put money against me.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 2:02 PM by Magesty

relvinian wrote: If they allowed vegas bets on my predictions you wouldn't want to put money against me.

Seems a fairly unimpressive "prediction". Every free shard ever made has died. The live server has been in its death throes for years.

The difference is this one is trying to make some fundamental changes to prevent that. I think they are going in the right direction even if the execution isn't perfect at the moment. I tried to communicate this way back on the first page of this thread, but perhaps a more blunt approach is best.

Your "predictions" and the manner in which you present them are akin to proclaiming, "Statistically speaking, I'm not going to live as long if I smoke cigarettes regularly," and then sitting back while looking around the room expectantly with a smug expression on your face.

No shit the server is probably going to die. That is what free shards have always done. The idea is to stop looking at the problem and seek solutions. We know a free shard with purely 1.65 mechanics will not work. We know the OF RvR environment as it was on 1.65 is not sustainable and does not hold the interest of a modernized and aging player base. If you'd stop sniveling about you discomfort with custom changes for a moment maybe you'd be able to see that too.

What are your ideas to keep the server fresh enough to retain population relvinian? Or are you so mired in conservatism that you honestly think releasing the same classic server with the same OF mechanics is going to somehow work out differently this time?

Wed 19 Sep 2018 2:38 PM by relvinian

Before you can solve a problem you first have to admit there is one.

Suiciding, then running to the next task, in order to suicide again for rps?

That right there is enough.

It is not fun. It is not a good story. It is reading a book and watching the writer write the story at the same time.

It is metagaming. I played it for a bit,. On my 50 hunter I was stealthing up to people and keeps and sicking my pet on them to do dmg and get credit.

I easily got rps by playing the meta. But it wasn't daoc.

It is also up to the players to tell these stories but the devs need to help. These tasks are heavy handed and they need to be written differently to give choice to players.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 2:41 PM by

Uthred

And again, please stick to the topic and stop insulting others. Last warning or I wil close this thread.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 2:57 PM by Geek

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 2:41 PM
And again, please stick to the topic and stop insulting others. Last warning or I wil close this thread.

Why don't you just answer Relvinian about this topic of his already? That'll close the thread.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 3:20 PM by relvinian

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 2:41 PM
And again, please stick to the topic and stop insulting others. Last warning or I wil close this thread.

Dude do you like watching people suicide on realm guards to rush over to another keep to suicide there in order to get rps?

Did you ever read any fantasy books like lord of the rings or wizard of earthsea?

Is suicidal lemmings the story you want to tell?

Wed 19 Sep 2018 3:35 PM by relvinian

"What are your ideas to keep the server fresh enough to retain population relvinian? Or are you so mired in conservatism that you honestly think releasing the same classic server with the same OF mechanics is going to somehow work out differently this time?"

1. Revise the tasks to include a reason, rather than deux machina. Think of them in terms of story. And explain them as a natural even or some other event.
2. Revise the tasks in order to add an element of player choice. The tasks need to optional. they really aren't.
3. also, choice needs to be included in other elements of the game, such as pots. You cannot play without pots in a world with pots. You can say using pots is a choice but it really isn't. In this case I think the best choice is to put buff npcs in or remove pots. since removing pots will never happen then put buff npcs in . Pots are still needed to be tactical for rez. Or for long distances if npc buffs run out.
4. My impression is that some of these customizations are put in for the fun or cool factor, and nothing wrong with that, but when you throw a rock into a pond it creates ripples. We need to take a look at things from a balance perspective and think about the big picture of the server.

As to my predictions being obvious, because all servers fail, I disagree. What are the goals of the server? Aren't the goals of a server to tell good stories and to have fun. Isn't mmog a shared online experience that depends on the actions of the players as well as the setting of the devs? Kind of like old paper and pencil dungeons and dragons-- which I played-- you need the gm to setup the story and the players who react to the story-- often in ways which the gm did not expect.

At the very minimum, during a beta, you need to evaluate things and decide what needs to be changed in order to make the best live version of a server.

People who really don't like something just log out. They move on, they don't bother to tell people why.

To be successful you need to be inclusive of a variety of play styles and set up an environment where people can succeed at the goals they choose to set for themselves.

But players should make the choices not some random god machine pooping out tasks.

Reminds me of rats pushing levers to get food pellets or dogs salivating when they hear a bell.

Inject those pots and run to the next task when the bell rings to get those pellets of rps.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 4:51 PM by

Uthred

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 3:20 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 2:41 PM
And again, please stick to the topic and stop insulting others. Last warning or I wil close this thread.

Dude do you like watching people suicide on realm guards to rush over to another keep to suicide there in order to get rps?

Did you ever read any fantasy books like lord of the rings or wizard of earthsea?

Is suicidal lemmings the story you want to tell?

My story is: getting this server ready for i50/launch.

You see "lemmings" suiciding, I see people that take part in RvR. Some of them just suicide, most of them fighting the enemies and having a good time.

Do you really want to remove tasks and to have that wasteland aka frontiers again as it was before we put in the tasks? Sure, they arent perfect. Sure, they still need adjustments. But we totally prefer 70% (and more) of lvl 50s in the frontiers like it is now over some lonely people in the frontier that get auto-ld because of no action there.

And coming back to your "lemmings"-thing. Those people that now suicide on keeps wouldnt have been out in the frontiers if there were no tasks. They would have idled at the porter keeps, maybe would have tried one run the milesgates, would have been killed there by a fg of visible or non-visible players and would have logged off again, with nothing but the release-button in their hand. But now they have a little something and may try again and again.

And maybe they will find others that think the same and suddenly they are not alone anymore and suddenly they realize: Now we are 5 people, we can stick the zerg and take part at the keepsieges and at the domination-tasks. And wow, it makes fun. Way more fun than just suiciding solo on a keep to get the reward. And they are becoming friends, creating a guild and will start ruinning around every night on a regular basis.

But yeah, you are right. They are just lemmings and want the easy rps. They only do it to show how bad the tasks are and what errors these tasks have. Or maybe, there are other reasons for them to do so. But it is way easier to call them lemmings.

Anyways, I already wasted more than enough time on this thread and trying to explain why we do the things we do. Im back to work on the next task that is not 1.65-like.

PS.: I just saw you made another post (yeah, surprise), so Im going to answer that in short before i really leave this thread.

1. We wrote multiple times before that we will add guild/alliance and other Realm tasks. It does take time. Patience pls. Thx.

2. Tasks are optional. No one forces you to take the taskkeep or to fight in the portal zones or to dominate breif/jamt. You could even use the task for your advantage like: Im Hib, mids running from uppland to Jamtland for the Domination-task. You could farm them on their way to the action. Or you are getting a grp of friends and killing evern while the zerg is in Jamtland. Yes, sorry. Tasks are bad, forcing you to stick to the zerg and/or suiciding like lemmings. Totally get your point.

3. You dont like pots, dont use them. Ah no, thats not a choice like you said. Ok, then play a buff class. Or find a friend that is playing a buffclass. Or pay someone (with ig-money) who is playing a buffclass to pretend to be your friend and to buff you. Sorry, im getting funny. Wasnt meant to be. Now the serious staff-anwser: we decided long time ago that we dont want buffbots and we dont want buff-npcs and that we also dont want buffpotions that buff the same amount like a regular buffclass. Thats why we implemented the "lower" buffpots. And also to increase the economy and to not make alchemists completly useless (when having buff-npcs). Surprise, but we sometimes think a little further that you might expect. Sorry, that last sentence was personal and not the official staff-anwser anymore.

4. Totally agree. I know, it is really startling, but we do sometimes (not very often tbh) some things to bring fun to the players. Crazy, isnt it? Ok, switching to staff-mode again. Thats why we adjust things. Did you realize all those changes that are made every day? Or even to the task-system. If not, read the patch-archive. Really informative. I promise. Sorry, switched to the being-funny-mode again. Honestly, we are not afraid of testing new things and we are also not afraid of changing things after we got >>>>>reasonable<<<<< feedback.

And to rest that you wrote: I guess Id better not answer on it because I would have to warn or maybe even time-ban myself after that. Anyways, im outta here for now, be back when the insult-o-meter reaches level 10 again.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 5:13 PM by Geek

/thread

Wed 19 Sep 2018 5:41 PM by defiasbandit

Problems with RvR tasks:

- Too disconnected/no big picture or story
- Too short. They often are almost over by time you arrive.
- Too repetitive. Running back and forth from each realm to the same zones every 30-40 minutes.
- Single zone causing zergs/groups to overrun the tasks.

Sure the task system is an improvement and fun for first week or so, but I am not convinced it will hold interest for casuals or hardcore players.

My suggestion is to combine the RvR tasks into one task that spans multiple zones in a single realm. Have it alternate between each realm. So if the task is in Hibernia then 3 or 4 of the zones in Hibernia will be available to zerg keeps in, have capture points, roam etc.. Make it last for like an entire day, then have it switch to the next realm and rotate. There can be a giant pool and every objective or kill will contribute to it on behalf of your realm. It would be like the % system in zergball that showed which realm was contributing the most during the task.

Each realm is then then rewarded rp from the pool based on how much contribution % their realm made.

So if Hib got 30%, Alb got 33%, and Mid got 37% then the RP would be distributed from the pool based on those contribution %.

There can be a running tally showing the contribution of each realm for the task. There can be bonus rewards based on realm contribution in each task such as cosmetics or titles etc.. This way your entire realm can win a task with everyone contributing through their own playstyle. Still have participation RP even for players who can not stay till the end. This would make it so RvR tasks are not just disconnected RP grabs that last under an hour.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:13 PM by Armsmancer

The amount of RPs across all players gained from the 30min tasks is nothing compared to the kills RP gain across all characters. If you are pointing at the task system rewards after you sit there for 30min dead as the problem of people getting RR to fast you cannot do 3rd grade math.

RR9 Minstrels didn't get there from 30 min keep tasks smart guy.

At best you are saying the paladins and other undesirable classes are getting rr4 too quickly! UNACCEPTABLE

a RR6 gets like 1500 rps after 30 mins if he cides on a keep. Try and have some perspective and again 3rd grade math goes a long way. This isn't debatable, its mathematics.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:28 PM by defiasbandit

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:13 PM
The amount of RPs across all players gained from the 30min tasks is nothing compared to the kills RP gain across all characters. If you are pointing at the task system rewards after you sit there for 30min dead as the problem of people getting RR to fast you cannot do 3rd grade math.

RR9 Minstrels didn't get there from 30 min keep tasks smart guy.

At best you are saying the paladins and other undesirable classes are getting rr4 too quickly! UNACCEPTABLE

a RR6 gets like 1500 rps after 30 mins if he cides on a keep. Try and have some perspective and again 3rd grade math goes a long way. This isn't debatable, its mathematics.

This is not a discussion about RP gain from the current task system. The current system achieves the goal of easy RP for low RR players. That does not mean the system can not be seriously improved. Revilinian is not the only who sees how hollow the current system is.

I offered a modification to the current system using tracking features and mechanics already present on the server. I would be appreciative of any constructive feedback.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:32 PM by Armsmancer

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:28 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:13 PM
The amount of RPs across all players gained from the 30min tasks is nothing compared to the kills RP gain across all characters. If you are pointing at the task system rewards after you sit there for 30min dead as the problem of people getting RR to fast you cannot do 3rd grade math.

RR9 Minstrels didn't get there from 30 min keep tasks smart guy.

At best you are saying the paladins and other undesirable classes are getting rr4 too quickly! UNACCEPTABLE

a RR6 gets like 1500 rps after 30 mins if he cides on a keep. Try and have some perspective and again 3rd grade math goes a long way. This isn't debatable, its mathematics.

This is not a discussion about RP gain from the current task system. The current system achieves the goal of easy RP for low RR players. That does not mean the system can not be seriously improved. Revilinian is not the only who sees how hollow the current system is.

I offered a modification to the current system using tracking features and mechanics already present on the server. I would be appreciative of any constructive feedback.

go look at all of relvs posts all up and down this entire thread and come back and tell me he is not bringing up how there should not be rp gain rewards for dying in a zone.

yes we know you keep talking about broadening the zones which is not what any of this is talking about, in fact you are adding more and he is saying less is more, pls pay attention these are all posted in the last few pages after all..

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:36 PM by relvinian

"Anyways, I already wasted more than enough time on this thread and trying to explain why we do the things we do. Im back to work on the next task that is not 1.65-like."

Friend, you did not waste enough time. Thank you, for your response.

Also, explaining why you do the things you do is GREAT. But it would be better to ask, sometimes, from the players for feedback. Or what they think, BEFORE you do it.

I'm not taking "sides", but sometimes you have to get a little squeeky, use some hyperbole, and make some noise. That is kind of how I roll. Go along and get along are not good things when it comes to making something complicated work well. You need feedback. You need to listen to your customers. (Players are customers, even in free servers.)

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:38 PM by defiasbandit

Easy participation RP is a good thing. If Revilian is arguing against participation rp then ignore him. I do not think suiciding in keeps then afking in town is ideal, but for now it is accomplishing the goal of easy RP which is good.

However, it is important that we look beyond this to find solutions and improvements to keep both casuals and hardcores active in the task system. If you have any criticism or questions about my task system concept please do share. I feel it fixes a lot of the complaints from players including Revilian.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:40 PM by Armsmancer

as we've discussed in game at length there's not a big enough population to spread out further now so talking about it now is like talking about the 2024 version of some car you can't get til then when we have the current model. Your system requires a lot more people, we do not have a lot more people, and we have no interest in talking about something that far away and untestable.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:45 PM by relvinian

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 5:41 PM
Problems with RvR tasks:

- Too disconnected/no big picture or story
- Too short. They often are almost over by time you arrive.
- Too repetitive. Running back and forth from each realm to the same zones every 30-40 minutes.
- Single zone causing zergs/groups to overrun the tasks.

Sure the task system is an improvement and fun for first week or so, but I am not convinced it will hold interest for casuals or hardcore players.

My suggestion is to combine the RvR tasks into one task that spans multiple zones in a single realm. Have it alternate between each realm. So if the task is in Hibernia then 3 or 4 of the zones in Hibernia will be available to zerg keeps in, have capture points, roam etc.. Make it last for like an entire day, then have it switch to the next realm and rotate. There can be a giant pool and every objective or kill will contribute to it on behalf of your realm. It would be like the % system in zergball that showed which realm was contributing the most during the task.

Each realm is then then rewarded rp from the pool based on how much contribution % their realm made.

So if Hib got 30%, Alb got 33%, and Mid got 37% then the RP would be distributed from the pool based on those contribution %.

There can be a running tally showing the contribution of each realm for the tasks. There can be bonus rewards based on realm contributio in the tasks such as cosmetics or titles etc.. This way your entire realm can win a task with everyone contributing through their own playstyle. Still have participation RP even for players who can not stay till the end. This would make it so RvR tasks are not just disconnected RP grabs that last under an hour.

Imagine there are two stories:

1. Everyone suddenly stops what they are doing as a message gets beamed into their head--- go to Dun Bolg and attack, or go to Dun Bolg to defend. So they rush off to complete a task.

2. Option two:

The commander of the albion forces orders an attack on Dun Bolg. Plans are made. Scouts are sent out to spy on the area. Logistics and supplies are laid in, orders given, troops get ready to move.

Spys from the Hybernian and mid realm begin to get information that something is being planned by alb. They don't know what. Spies are sent out. Troops are put into readiness and called back from leave. Weapons are sharpened and supplies are laid in.

Hibernia early reports come in that the Albion Army is on the move. Troops are readied and they rush to the walls of various keeps in the area to prepare to repel the invaders.

Midgard knows that Albion is on the move into Hybernia. How best to take advantage of this situation? Attack Hibernia as well and decimate a weakened foe? Attack Albion in order to loot the undefended lands?

Nobody knows for sure because when the arrows fly and the swords are unsheathed, all plans can get changed at a moments notice.

So how would example two be done?

1. Don't do neverending repeating tasks. Make tasks happen, but make them vague.

Hours before task happens, you get a message-- rumors of an enemy activity are heard.

Later on, another rumor is heard-- Albion plans to attack. Which realm? Who knows.

Spies go out-- the players trying to find out what is going on.

Another rumor there are enemies in the homeland. So players go out and skirmishes occur between forces.

Then later on you do get the realm where the attack may occur-- A keep attack-- not which one. Then maybe the keep is randomly chosen and information is given out in intervals. First to the attackers, they sure as hell know where they are going to attack before the defenders. Then later, a keep is going to be attacked info flashes to the defenders, they have to go out and figure out where. Then finally the 3rd realm gets info that "a keep" is going to be attacked in Hibernia. They can take a mission to attack a keep as well but it could be the same keep or an optional one.

I know its more complicated. I'm not criticizing the creativity and the hard work of the devs. Merely trying to make it better, to make sense, to offer player choice and input.

I'm not as dumb as I look. Most players are pretty sharp, and veteran gamers to boot. Ask them for their input and let's all brainstorm and work together to make something fun and better.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:47 PM by defiasbandit

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:40 PM
as we've discussed in game at length there's not a big enough population to spread out further now so talking about it now is like talking about the 2024 version of some car you can't get til then when we have the current model. Your system requires a lot more people, we do not have a lot more people, and we have no interest in talking about something that far away and untestable.

Explain how we do not have enough players for my system. It would involve RvR across 3 adjacent zones in a single realm. The current beta population is getting log jammed in a single zone task as is or they don't show up out of boredom. Dominate Breifine for example. You think at launch when we have 5 to 10x as many players that 3 or 4 zones is too big for a day long RvR task?

Not everyone wants to roam or run into a zerg in a single zone over and over again. This task system would focus all RvR in a single realm.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:51 PM by defiasbandit

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:45 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 5:41 PM
Problems with RvR tasks:

- Too disconnected/no big picture or story
- Too short. They often are almost over by time you arrive.
- Too repetitive. Running back and forth from each realm to the same zones every 30-40 minutes.
- Single zone causing zergs/groups to overrun the tasks.

Sure the task system is an improvement and fun for first week or so, but I am not convinced it will hold interest for casuals or hardcore players.

My suggestion is to combine the RvR tasks into one task that spans multiple zones in a single realm. Have it alternate between each realm. So if the task is in Hibernia then 3 or 4 of the zones in Hibernia will be available to zerg keeps in, have capture points, roam etc.. Make it last for like an entire day, then have it switch to the next realm and rotate. There can be a giant pool and every objective or kill will contribute to it on behalf of your realm. It would be like the % system in zergball that showed which realm was contributing the most during the task.

Each realm is then then rewarded rp from the pool based on how much contribution % their realm made.

So if Hib got 30%, Alb got 33%, and Mid got 37% then the RP would be distributed from the pool based on those contribution %.

There can be a running tally showing the contribution of each realm for the tasks. There can be bonus rewards based on realm contributio in the tasks such as cosmetics or titles etc.. This way your entire realm can win a task with everyone contributing through their own playstyle. Still have participation RP even for players who can not stay till the end. This would make it so RvR tasks are not just disconnected RP grabs that last under an hour.

Imagine there are two stories:

1. Everyone suddenly stops what they are doing as a message gets beamed into their head--- go to Dun Bolg and attack, or go to Dun Bolg to defend. So they rush off to complete a task.

2. Option two:

The commander of the albion forces orders an attack on Dun Bolg. Plans are made. Scouts are sent out to spy on the area. Logistics and supplies are laid in, orders given, troops get ready to move.

Spys from the Hybernian and mid realm begin to get information that something is being planned by alb. They don't know what. Spies are sent out. Troops are put into readiness and called back from leave. Weapons are sharpened and supplies are laid in.

Hibernia early reports come in that the Albion Army is on the move. Troops are readied and they rush to the walls of various keeps in the area to prepare to repel the invaders.

Midgard knows that Albion is on the move into Hybernia. How best to take advantage of this situation? Attack Hibernia as well and decimate a weakened foe? Attack Albion in order to loot the undefended lands?

Nobody knows for sure because when the arrows fly and the swords are unsheathed, all plans can get changed at a moments notice.

My task system would hopefully be more in line with your option two. Multiple fights/objectives in multiple zones. As much as we want player driven objectives/battles, we know from experience you need a carrot on a stick to some degree. In reality RvR is not some turn based roleplaying skirmish as fun as that is to brainstorm.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:00 PM by Armsmancer

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:47 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:40 PM
as we've discussed in game at length there's not a big enough population to spread out further now so talking about it now is like talking about the 2024 version of some car you can't get til then when we have the current model. Your system requires a lot more people, we do not have a lot more people, and we have no interest in talking about something that far away and untestable.

Explain how we do not have enough players for my system. It would involve RvR across 3 adjacent zones in a single realm. The current beta population is getting log jammed in a single zone task as is or they don't show up out of boredom. Dominate Breifine for example. You think at launch when we have 5 to 10x as many players that 3 or 4 zones is too big for a day long RvR task?

Not everyone wants to roam or run into a zerg in a single zone over and over again. This task system would focus all RvR in a single realm.

going from 1 to 3 zones is going to spread the ppl that would all be in 1 zone across to others. Math. There's not enough players on at least during NA times for this, and we do not want a system that is great for EU prime time, then is too spread out for the 100ish on each realm after they log out for the night. The current system benefits all and does not play favorites.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:03 PM by relvinian

"3. You dont like pots, dont use them. Ah no, thats not a choice like you said. Ok, then play a buff class. Or find a friend that is playing a buffclass. Or pay someone (with ig-money) who is playing a buffclass to pretend to be your friend and to buff you. Sorry, im getting funny. Wasnt meant to be. Now the serious staff-anwser: we decided long time ago that we dont want buffbots and we dont want buff-npcs and that we also dont want buffpotions that buff the same amount like a regular buffclass. Thats why we implemented the "lower" buffpots. And also to increase the economy and to not make alchemists completly useless (when having buff-npcs). Surprise, but we sometimes think a little further that you might expect. Sorry, that last sentence was personal and not the official staff-anwser anymore. "

It's ok, I'm annoying. I know it. My poor wife is married to me.

My issue with pots is that they give a large advantage to those with means. You pretty much do need them if you want to win solo pvp, particularly if you're mediocre like I am. So saying they are optional is not really true. And it isn't just me. the subject of pots/no pots comes up a lot in advice chat. Sure you can't please everyone.

My suggestion, was to make crappy npc buffs available. If player buffs are 48 base and 63 spec, and pots are 26 and 39, then make the npc buffs 16 and 22, have them give out pom 1 and tireless 1 as well as 5 hp regen. Make them last 24 minutes. If you die, you need pots. If you want to be uber competitive you need pots, if you are real casual or you farm/pve then you can choose the ghetto npc buffs.

Just a suggestion. If I had to write a story about an adventurer for daoc phoenix it would be a magical junkie who had to live on potions they drink every 10 minutes to get through their day. These junkies have to go out and work to get gold to pay for their habits. Kidding but I don't want to farm farm farm and click potion buttons every 10 minutes and I imagine some other players feel as I do. I don't have to imagine, I have seen it in advice chat.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:06 PM by defiasbandit

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:00 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:47 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:40 PM
as we've discussed in game at length there's not a big enough population to spread out further now so talking about it now is like talking about the 2024 version of some car you can't get til then when we have the current model. Your system requires a lot more people, we do not have a lot more people, and we have no interest in talking about something that far away and untestable.

Explain how we do not have enough players for my system. It would involve RvR across 3 adjacent zones in a single realm. The current beta population is getting log jammed in a single zone task as is or they don't show up out of boredom. Dominate Breifine for example. You think at launch when we have 5 to 10x as many players that 3 or 4 zones is too big for a day long RvR task?

Not everyone wants to roam or run into a zerg in a single zone over and over again. This task system would focus all RvR in a single realm.

going from 1 to 3 zones is going to spread the ppl that would all be in 1 zone across to others. Math. There's not enough players on at least during NA times for this, and we do not want a system that is great for EU prime time, then is too spread out for the 100ish on each realm after they log out for the. The current system benefits all and does not play favorites.

The current population is not indicative of the one at live. The system can flex the number of zones active based on the population. So if all four are open during EU primetime, then perhaps 2 are open during NA time.

The current system is repetitive and disconnected, serves no greater purpose for each realm, offers basically nothing for players past RR5, and requires players to run back and forth across the realms every 30 minutes or so.

How is my suggestion not a potential improvement.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:06 PM by relvinian

I think system messages could be sent out at different times to various realms. I think they could be more vague at first and more specific later on.

Fog of war.

I also think that when one task ends another one does not need to occur. After the armies are gathered to complete a task, let the players then decide what next to do with their forces.

Use the tasks to get things started but let the players write their own role in the story.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:10 PM by Armsmancer

The arguments against pots and in the same breath ask for buff merchants are hilarous

Also you don't need pots to be competitive. I've had no buffs up against someone fully buffed and won. This is so much more complicated and situational than you make it out to be some 0 or 1. I didn't need pots and sometimes don't even want to waste them if I don't need to. If I mez a guy and have the drop on him I don't care if he has dex str con buffed, who cares he's dead I can kite him without buffs or even my AF shields up.

Pots are in and are here to stay. They have said no to merchants since beta started. Stop asking for it, especially with bad and flawed arguments.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:19 PM by Armsmancer

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:06 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:00 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:47 PM
Explain how we do not have enough players for my system. It would involve RvR across 3 adjacent zones in a single realm. The current beta population is getting log jammed in a single zone task as is or they don't show up out of boredom. Dominate Breifine for example. You think at launch when we have 5 to 10x as many players that 3 or 4 zones is too big for a day long RvR task?

Not everyone wants to roam or run into a zerg in a single zone over and over again. This task system would focus all RvR in a single realm.

going from 1 to 3 zones is going to spread the ppl that would all be in 1 zone across to others. Math. There's not enough players on at least during NA times for this, and we do not want a system that is great for EU prime time, then is too spread out for the 100ish on each realm after they log out for the. The current system benefits all and does not play favorites.

The current population is not indicative of the one at live. The system can flex the number of zones active based on the population. So if all four are open during EU primetime, then perhaps 2 are open during NA time.

The current system is repetitive and disconnected, serves no greater purpose for each realm, offers basically nothing for players past RR5, and requires players to run back and forth across the realms every 30 minutes or so.

How is my suggestion not a potential improvement.

Holy crap dude. I didn't say the current population WAS indicative of the one at live, can you get on my level this is like entry-level debate mistakes.

Go ahead and tell us all how many will there be on day 1? Day 50? Right, so a system with 500 may not be good for 2500 right? So stop having this enormous confidence for "your idea" when you have absolutely nothing to back it up besides your feelings about it.

Crafting is repetitive and disconnected but people keep doing it, based on your logic lets gut the damned thing and make it so much more "connected" whatever that is really supposed to mean. Again who cares?

They don't need to design a system with any purpose beyond keeping a healthy active population. You can say it should look different but none of the rest of us care because their current system is producing results, and your hypothetical, untestable one nobody is going to spend any more time arguing about because as in my last analogy I do not want to spend effort talking about a 2024 version of a car I can't get for 6 years and all the features it should or should not have. WHO CARES I CAN'T DRIVE THAT CAR , and I don't want the already low #'s here spread out any further. You can say in the future it will work, I don't care.

You haven't played this game as much as the rest of us and you have no idea what you are saying and what will actually happen, you're an idealist and you keep doubling down when people who have played this game and probably levelled 50 level 50s are here saying "no that won't work" and you got 1 lv 50 telling us all how it is. Please.

If you take nothing else away from this then please take this : Your idea is untestable with the current population, and you have no good reason to think it will be an improvement. Saying it often or in all caps on the internet will not get you from "Maybe this is better" -- - - - --- - - - - - - - -- > "Definitely and obviously a huge improvement and the people will rejoice"

You have little play time at 50 on this server or any other , you have played likely less than 1/20th of the people here you are telling all how it should be. You lack experience and you will not stop doubling down on things when people tell you this will not work like you think.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:20 PM by defiasbandit

The Pot system is pretty much fine as is. It is not the most convenient to keep popping potions as solo or small man, but this is an RPG afterall.

Wed 19 Sep 2018 10:03 PM by

gruenesschaf

Only in very few cases will we ask for feedback before implementing a change, it's for all parties a lot easier to suggest changes (or even the removal if it really seems like a total miss) to something that's actually there than to imagine something entirely new and how differences might affect it.

I'd expect more changes to the existing realm task soonish, the first will be to stay in a specific realm for multiple consecutive tasks and only change the realm with the zone kill task. A potential option for the keep task would be to kind of let it be the start of a campaign to raid the entirety of a given realm until the defenders win and only then change from keep task to something else.

Thu 20 Sep 2018 2:29 AM by relvinian

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 10:03 PM
Only in very few cases will we ask for feedback before implementing a change, it's for all parties a lot easier to suggest changes (or even the removal if it really seems like a total miss) to something that's actually there than to imagine something entirely new and how differences might affect it.

I'd expect more changes to the existing realm task soonish, the first will be to stay in a specific realm for multiple consecutive tasks and only change the realm with the zone kill task. A potential option for the keep task would be to kind of let it be the start of a campaign to raid the entirety of a given realm until the defenders win and only then change from keep task to something else.

It is hard to see the big picture, because relics aren't in. But whatever the final result is, I hope we can agree that it should not be called task wars. Tasks should be in there if you want them, but not the focus of the game.

Don't you think it would be more interesting to have tasks which allow player choice and also tell a better story than a simultaneous system wide three realm message?

Thu 20 Sep 2018 12:09 PM by Lumpi

I kind of agree that the nonstop Taskwar including suicide in Keep guards is kind of.... <insertrandomswearword>
But I do heavily like the Task concept.
Didn't read the whole topic, but I would like to suggest the following change.

-A maximum of 1 Task per hour
-Random starting timer, with that I mean no fixed starting times like xx:15 or xx:30
-Have at least 1 hour waiting between 2 Tasks

I do think that this would encourage a "normal" RvR Gameplay and not just Zergballing through tasks into guard suicide but you still got a nice diversity with the Tasks.

Thu 20 Sep 2018 2:34 PM by Kaziera

I totaly agree with the post above.

Also i suggest to put an emphasis on tasks that are more natural to daoc rvr like keep take and fight in zone.

Dont get me wrong, real shout out to the implementation of ctf tasks, they just dont feel like daoc to.me.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 10:13 PM by Warjon

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 4:51 PM
relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 3:20 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 19 Sep 2018 2:41 PM
And again, please stick to the topic and stop insulting others. Last warning or I wil close this thread.

Dude do you like watching people suicide on realm guards to rush over to another keep to suicide there in order to get rps?

Did you ever read any fantasy books like lord of the rings or wizard of earthsea?

Is suicidal lemmings the story you want to tell?

My story is: getting this server ready for i50/launch.

You see "lemmings" suiciding, I see people that take part in RvR. Some of them just suicide, most of them fighting the enemies and having a good time.

Do you really want to remove tasks and to have that wasteland aka frontiers again as it was before we put in the tasks? Sure, they arent perfect. Sure, they still need adjustments. But we totally prefer 70% (and more) of lvl 50s in the frontiers like it is now over some lonely people in the frontier that get auto-ld because of no action there.

And coming back to your "lemmings"-thing. Those people that now suicide on keeps wouldnt have been out in the frontiers if there were no tasks. They would have idled at the porter keeps, maybe would have tried one run the milesgates, would have been killed there by a fg of visible or non-visible players and would have logged off again, with nothing but the release-button in their hand. But now they have a little something and may try again and again.

And maybe they will find others that think the same and suddenly they are not alone anymore and suddenly they realize: Now we are 5 people, we can stick the zerg and take part at the keepsieges and at the domination-tasks. And wow, it makes fun. Way more fun than just suiciding solo on a keep to get the reward. And they are becoming friends, creating a guild and will start ruinning around every night on a regular basis.

But yeah, you are right. They are just lemmings and want the easy rps. They only do it to show how bad the tasks are and what errors these tasks have. Or maybe, there are other reasons for them to do so. But it is way easier to call them lemmings.

Anyways, I already wasted more than enough time on this thread and trying to explain why we do the things we do. Im back to work on the next task that is not 1.65-like.

PS.: I just saw you made another post (yeah, surprise), so Im going to answer that in short before i really leave this thread.

1. We wrote multiple times before that we will add guild/alliance and other Realm tasks. It does take time. Patience pls. Thx.

2. Tasks are optional. No one forces you to take the taskkeep or to fight in the portal zones or to dominate breif/jamt. You could even use the task for your advantage like: Im Hib, mids running from uppland to Jamtland for the Domination-task. You could farm them on their way to the action. Or you are getting a grp of friends and killing evern while the zerg is in Jamtland. Yes, sorry. Tasks are bad, forcing you to stick to the zerg and/or suiciding like lemmings. Totally get your point.

3. You dont like pots, dont use them. Ah no, thats not a choice like you said. Ok, then play a buff class. Or find a friend that is playing a buffclass. Or pay someone (with ig-money) who is playing a buffclass to pretend to be your friend and to buff you. Sorry, im getting funny. Wasnt meant to be. Now the serious staff-anwser: we decided long time ago that we dont want buffbots and we dont want buff-npcs and that we also dont want buffpotions that buff the same amount like a regular buffclass. Thats why we implemented the "lower" buffpots. And also to increase the economy and to not make alchemists completly useless (when having buff-npcs). Surprise, but we sometimes think a little further that you might expect. Sorry, that last sentence was personal and not the official staff-anwser anymore.

4. Totally agree. I know, it is really startling, but we do sometimes (not very often tbh) some things to bring fun to the players. Crazy, isnt it? Ok, switching to staff-mode again. Thats why we adjust things. Did you realize all those changes that are made every day? Or even to the task-system. If not, read the patch-archive. Really informative. I promise. Sorry, switched to the being-funny-mode again. Honestly, we are not afraid of testing new things and we are also not afraid of changing things after we got >>>>>reasonable<<<<< feedback.

And to rest that you wrote: I guess Id better not answer on it because I would have to warn or maybe even time-ban myself after that. Anyways, im outta here for now, be back when the insult-o-meter reaches level 10 again.

Wait, you ARE saying all this as good things?? smh This is glorified and multiplied Uth2 crafting materials in FZ keeps. You are lining up the lemmings for the organized RvR guilds to farm them, just like You state here, are you not? How long do you think that will last? lol

Hint: Tweaking DAOC for casuals will not be done by helping the organized that reach 50 first widen their gap by more easy RPS when they get there. This all sounds like Uth2 on steroids.

Sat 22 Sep 2018 12:06 PM by Ganaka

Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I have the sinking feeling... On Uth, I always had the feeling that by the time I was RR2, the elites would be RR4+. Here, I feel that by the time I reach RR2, the elites will be RR7+.

Sat 22 Sep 2018 12:34 PM by Kampfar

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Sep 2018 12:06 PM
Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I have the sinking feeling... On Uth, I always had the feeling that by the time I was RR2, the elites would be RR4+. Here, I feel that by the time I reach RR2, the elites will be RR7+.

Reached 2l2 w lvl 40 toon in Duo w friend Who came over last saturday, was about 2 horus rvr Task. Most time we just sat there drinkin. So happy end, drunk, and a new char with some RA ....
☺

Sat 22 Sep 2018 3:27 PM by relvinian

If they tweak the tasks, it just might work out. But they need to balance things.

Be proactive and also reactive to exploits or negative trends brought on by player's ability to exploit damn near anything.

I'm not sure what they 2 task thing with the cool down is, exactly, and how it works, but might be a step in the right direction.