Space for somwhat balanced RvR

Started 7 Sep 2018
by schreon
in Suggestions
Hi,

I really appreciate the efforts to bring action to RvR. It works, certain parts of the frontiers are packed with action. This is a very cool accomplishment.

However, I find it very difficult to find somewhat balanced RvR during prime times. This significantly reduces fun for me, because it does not feel like a competetive game anymore in many situations, but rather a game which is about who happens to outnumber whom.

If two or more parties of very different sizes fight each other, it is almost certain who will win: in general, it will be the largest party. The problem is always the same for all group sizes. It is a huge difference in the sizes of groups which eliminates the relevance of individual actions.

If we are 4 people and we start a fight versus 3, and a stealther of the remaining realm adds into the fight, it is fun, because my actions matter - we might win, but we also might lose.

If we are 8 people and we start a fight versus 10, it is difficult but still doable, so it is potentially fun, because my actions matter.

If we are 8 people and fight versus 20, it is impossible to do anything to win, the fight is ending very fast, and there is zero fun, because my actions do not matter. Except the 20 people are playing very very bad.

If we are 8 people and we face another group of 8 people which have a way higher RR and play better, we might not be able to win, but we might come close to a victory and kill a few out of their group. Hence my actions mater, thus this is fun to me.

If we are 20 and we roll over any group of 8 or even smaller, it does not matter what I do, I can even sit down and watch, the outcome will be the same. My actions do not matter, hence this is not fun. The only thing is, I get realm points, my rank increases, which is fun as long you are desperate for some realm rank, but it gets very, very dull as soon you got the most important RAs and the RP curve flattens out.

If we run with 16 people and we encounter 20 people, that is fun again, it is again potentially more difficult, but doable, so it matters what my actions are, hence it is fun.

What also is fun is if a fight starts small and it grows bigger slowly, because small parties or solos continue adding into the fight until there is a large chaotic battle taking place. Even if one realm grows faster than the others, there will have been a timespan at the beginning when my actions did matter. So this was fun, although the scenario might have evolved into an unwinnable situation where my actions eventually did not matter anymore.

I had the opportunity to play a LOT over the course of the past 2 weeks, so I was lucky to get an impression during different times of the day. I did not count yet, but my feeling is that during prime times, 90% of the fights I encounter are unbalanced: either getting steamrolled or steamrolling others. It is like watching a ping pong game on speed. Everybody wins and loses (which is great!) but the fights are decided way too clearly and fast.

I thought about starting to run past smaller groups or solos if I encounter them. But I actually do not want to spare them, because that totally destroys the realm versus realm feeling for me. At the same time, it is getting very dull to just farm people and I also feel sorry for them in those situations because I know how frustrating the same situation is for me whenever I get farmed. Boredom on one side, frustration on the other. Not good.

Zerging must be part of DAoC, that is for sure, and I enjoy it sometimes as it can be quite relaxing. I also tried to build my own battlegroup recently and it was awesome. Also, with a new character it is great to make first realm points, unlock new abilities etc. But it gets dull in the long run, at least for me. What I am asking for is NOT to get rid of zergs or the task system. It is part and has to be part of DAoC that you occasionally get farmed/steamrolled. But it should not be the case 90% of the time.

I'm asking to come up with additional concepts which create space for more balanced RvR situations, parallel to the existing realm task zerg RvR. Unbalanced situations will and shall happen, but they should be rather rare and not normal. It is like when you play a game set during a zombie apocalypse: it is fun if there is a constant risk that a large herd of zombies catches your attention and you get ripped apart without standing a chance. This creates tension. But that game would not be fun if getting ripped apart is the default case.

Do you have the same impression, or am I in a minorty here?
Sat 8 Sep 2018 1:26 AM by Isavyr
I think the skill level is a lot higher among the players today than in the past--no surprise. This leads to the idea that numbers are the only determining factor. I'll word it differently: if everyone has the same skill level, then the only thing that matters is numbers.

The zerg-busting strategies of old, PBAOE groups, don't work on modern players because they are smarter and counter them better.

The other factor is DAoC's large group-size (8 players) which creates larger opportunities for disparity. Imagine if maximum group size was 12. When you duo with a friend, or get caught solo, you'll get flattened even faster against the group of 12. Conversely, if group size was 2, solo players would often have a chance against "full groups". The game was built around the size of 8 though, so there's not really anything to be done.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 3:56 AM by Zansobar
Isavyr wrote:
Sat 8 Sep 2018 1:26 AM
I think the skill level is a lot higher among the players today than in the past--no surprise. This leads to the idea that numbers are the only determining factor. I'll word it differently: if everyone has the same skill level, then the only thing that matters is numbers.

The zerg-busting strategies of old, PBAOE groups, don't work on modern players because they are smarter and counter them better.

The other factor is DAoC's large group-size (8 players) which creates larger opportunities for disparity. Imagine if maximum group size was 12. When you duo with a friend, or get caught solo, you'll get flattened even faster against the group of 12. Conversely, if group size was 2, solo players would often have a chance against "full groups". The game was built around the size of 8 though, so there's not really anything to be done.

Well the devs have the ability to change the group limit size, so there is still hope.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 4:19 AM by Takii
Changing the group size will thankfully never happen because the devs here seem to have at least a minimum of common sense...
Sat 8 Sep 2018 5:59 AM by jelzinga_EU
Takii wrote:
Sat 8 Sep 2018 4:19 AM
Changing the group size will thankfully never happen because the devs here seem to have at least a minimum of common sense...

I have to agree with you. If you change the group-size this will have a huge impact on balance. If, for example, you set the groupsize to 4 and you want the basics (CC, some heals, speed) you theoretically cover that with a bard in Hibernia, need 2 in Mid with healer+skald and 3 in Albion with sorc+minstrel+cleric.

And yes, bard-healing will obviously be low compared to cleric but a smaller groupsize heavily penalizes Albion where must-have utility is spread-out much further.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 9:24 AM by keen
1. Get into discord
2. PM relevant people
3. Agree on a zone that is not a contested task area
4. Enjoy fights free of adds.

Actually the task system makes it easier for 8men to get clean fights. If it doesn't happen that's cause they don't want to make it happen.
That's not the task systems fault.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 10:35 AM by schreon
The discussion went in a strange direction already. I take it you all feel confident with how the RvR encounters are currently?

The idea of reducing the group cap was already discussed in another thread and it was not welcome at all. There also have been very good arguments against it (like certain classes like Bards being very important, not leaving much room for other low-util classes anymore; or that it makes not much of a difference if the battlegroup consists of 8 5man groups or 5 8man groups).

I understand the argument of organizing things via discord. However, you could also argue that people could have agreed on meeting in certain zones and bringing all their toons, also 40+ and unequip. Did it happen? No. An automated incentive system helped bridging the organizational gap.

There is a reason for this and it is convenience as well as hesitation. Sure, the elite 8man groups will find their way to do their thing, organizing fights via discord. I am not worried about them. However, people who are to several degrees more casual on the casual<>hardcore spectrum. I would consider myself somewhere in the middle of that in general (as I usually don't have as much time as in the past weeks).

Also, it is not about X vs X nice-fighting. It is about a much, much softer version of that: creating situations in where my actions have an impact, also if the situation is very unfair and my probability of winning is small. It is about a casual version of that.

Maybe the automated incentive system (realm tasks and personal tasks) could be extended in a way that they lift the organizational burden of smaller semi-casual groups and solos finding RvR encounters they consider enjoyable. A player who likes battlegroup RvR always knows where to find the action. In my opinion, we need something like that for smaller encounters, too. Not by rules, not by separate zones, just by some additional incentive systems that indicate where to go.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 5:29 PM by Isavyr
schreon wrote:
Sat 8 Sep 2018 10:35 AM
It is about ... creating situations in where my actions have an impact, also if the situation is very unfair and my probability of winning is small. It is about a casual version of that.

I liked the idea of 5-man cap, but you'd have to change so many things to make it work that you're no longer playing the same game. For some that's OK--for others it's no bueno.

To give an example of how it's very different: 8-mans usually have redundant roles (cure ns, cure mezz, healing). When the group size is smaller, each action is more significant; a single mezz takes a higher percentage of the enemy out of the fight, and you have a lesser percent of your group generally able to counter those abilities. Furthermore, the long duration requires the mezzed player to either use purge, or their side is likely to lose the fight.

To help resolve this chaotic situation (either side can win based on beating one cast by 0.001s), CC either needs shorter durations, or purge needs to have higher up-time (like 5 or 10m cooldown).

Now this game no longer resembles classic DAoC, with its shorter cooldowns and more competitive group sizes. But that's not all it does. It also removes 8v8, which is a highly competitive, highly cooperative game-mode, the mental rewards of which cannot be duplicated by 5v5. Imagine if soccer (futbol) were to shrink down to 5 players, and you see similar problems in that the game must be changed fundamentally to account for this, and is no longer the same at the end of the day.

To recap, you're removing one type of gameplay that people enjoy. And the game requires several changes to make it work. I have no doubt it would be a better final product, but it comes at the expense of another game-mode, and requires a lot of controversial changes.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 5:38 PM by schreon
Isavyr, the discussion is not any longer about modifying group size cap. This discussion is also not about fiddling with abilities and classes.

It is purely about establishing incentives. Incentives maybe similar to the realm tasks which draw groups of similar sizes into the same areas, so the probability of getting a somewhat balanced fight get higher.

No extra battlegrounds, zones, no tempering with game mechanics. Pure incentives to go somewhere.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 6:32 PM by Isavyr
schreon wrote:
Sat 8 Sep 2018 5:38 PM
Isavyr, the discussion is not any longer about modifying group size cap. This discussion is also not about fiddling with abilities and classes.

It is purely about establishing incentives. Incentives maybe similar to the realm tasks which draw groups of similar sizes into the same areas, so the probability of getting a somewhat balanced fight get higher.

No extra battlegrounds, zones, no tempering with game mechanics. Pure incentives to go somewhere.

Well, that is a bit funny. You dismiss my point because it isn't what you want to discuss. That's OK with me.

Let me know when you have such an incentive because I disagree that the incentives are the problem.
Sat 8 Sep 2018 6:37 PM by Hedien
I like how you word it, Khnattr : bridging organizational gap.

This is spot on because any organizational decision is hard.

1st daily decision :
- Saying "lfg" = easy
- Deciding to build = harder
- Deciding to build with viable setup = even harder
- Deciding to build with meta setup = excruciating
- Deciding to build with meta setup and experienced players = kill me please

2nd daily decision :
- Sticking = easy
- Deciding where to roam/drive = harder

3rd daily decision :
- Staying vocal less = easy
- Deciding to use vocal and agree where = harder
- Deciding to use vocal and guide people on how to properly call actions = Good luck.

For me - the 3 aspects above are the difficulties of DAoC because they are the pillar for successful, enjoyable play. The easier the path, the less you will enjoy. The opposite is true but most people don't want the hard part when it comes to a game in which they want to relax.

In WoW, selecting the class in the dungeon finder tackled the 1st aspect at the cost of social interactions. In War you have the concept of open parties / raids. The Daoc group finder is not intuitive enough to be used, and still require people to /send which they find as hard as picking up the phone to say happy birthday to their grandma. The BG are not nearly as good as War open parties because it does not unlock group synergies, mapping visibility and other group perks.

In many games, they tried to in-bed vocals with relative success rates. I have not seen a good intuitive one yet. DAoC was just too old to have this tech.

If I were the GM/Devs, I would rack my brains on :
1. How to finetune the existing task system. But to me, it is already pretty close and a significant improvement that gave DAoC a sustainability never experienced. I personally would like more keep action, with weaker guards (red max). Hence always have 2 tasks in parallel 1 keep, 1 roaming in emain/og/hw. Mainly because casuals try to play keep, it is finished and then they realize they cannot play for the roaming bit if no zerg is here as they are not competitive enough. Then they stop for 30 min, or log. We should not have something making player stop playing.
2. Work on a group finder, with potentially some automation in group creation / filters in players requirements, with a new interface as the old one is painful to use. I would work on this aspect in priority because not finding a group is what make people want to quit the game. Will it change the life of the 8man guilds - nope. Will it change the life of casuals - big time.

This last point is the closer link to your post. If people can build faster, they can be at equilibrium faster. Creating more balanced encounters.

Grim.
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