Bard frustrations- Make their songs un-interrupt-able

PREFACE: Playing hib on live, there was always a shortage of bards. From a meta perspective, is is a powerful class that can CC, Base-Buff, Speed 5, Endo, and help with heal duties. But the class is the most frustrating class, in DAOC, to play.

SUGGESTION: Bard is probably too strong on live now, with 2 songs and root. However, making their songs un-interrupt-able seems fine.

RATIONALE: At the start of combat a bard must perform 2 tasks simultaneously: change from speed to endurance song & mezz opponents. Bards cannot cast while attempting to sing a song. Even if everything goes perfectly, and no opponent interrupts your song transition, you must now demezz, cure disease and heal. Bards are forced to use MOC 1 when Endurance is interrupted.

Forcing a class to dump 5 Realm Points into an RA, to accomplish what Shamans and Paladins can do without interruption seems unbalanced.

Tue 30 Jun 2020 5:37 AM by Patron

Classes are not mirrored, plz stop to compare the classes. This road not lead into goods...

Hello Person A...
And i am a Hib Player

Tue 30 Jun 2020 7:09 AM by Kurbsen

give me root, second dd, and 2 second confuse as well! oh and mezz reduction!!!!!!!! ( i wish) ill dream, k bye

Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:17 AM by Centenario

Why use endo song, when you have cheap endo pots.
All of alb uses endo pots 100% of the time.

Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:19 AM by Razur Ur

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:17 AM
Why use endo song, when you have cheap endo pots.
All of alb uses endo pots 100% of the time.

for tank groups is not enough only blue endu pots with value 3!!!!

Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:30 AM by Centenario

Tireless and Longwind are mandatory RA.
So you got endo 4 and reduced sprinting cost, should be enough.

Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:47 AM by

Uthred

Stop the insults Razur. Really. Im sick of having to delete every 2nd post of you. Thank you.

Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:56 AM by Grunwave

Patron wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 5:37 AM
Classes are not mirrored, plz stop to compare the classes. This road not lead into goods...

Hello Person A...
And i am a Hib Player

Have you ever RvR as a bard?

Tue 30 Jun 2020 9:00 AM by Grunwave

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:30 AM
Tireless and Longwind are mandatory RA.
So you got endo 4 and reduced sprinting cost, should be enough.

Is this true?

Why not just run a Paladin?

Tue 30 Jun 2020 9:17 AM by Razur Ur

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:30 AM
Tireless and Longwind are mandatory RA.
So you got endo 4 and reduced sprinting cost, should be enough.

i can't agree with that, because when sprinting with blue endureg value 3 +tl and lw there is no endu regeneration and therefore when
running + styling the endu is used up very fast and especially merc and bm have increased this problem.

i would be interested if you have ever played tank in rvr and which realm to play.

Tue 30 Jun 2020 10:45 AM by Killaloth

Endo switch is not a priority at the beginning of the inc.

Tanks can go through endo pot, scrap of legion, charge for BM. Ideally you want to use your endo pot while you switch from one target to another. Most tanks finish endo because they sprint the whole fight..

OT: having played all realms damage add on Mana chanters and ABS buff on Arboreal animists is what is lacking on Hib, while so easily available on Alb and Mid.

Tue 30 Jun 2020 1:42 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:30 AM
Tireless and Longwind are mandatory RA.
So you got endo 4 and reduced sprinting cost, should be enough.

If you're playing support or a caster, sure.

But on a melee character, you have zero regen while sprinting and styling, which means you're out of endo very quickly if you aren't chain snaring your target.

Wed 1 Jul 2020 10:06 AM by Noashakra

I play bard and yeah it's annoying but it's part of the class. Give us more rupt or give us back amnesia 2300 range.

Wed 1 Jul 2020 10:10 AM by Gildar

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 10:06 AM
I play bard and yeah it's annoying but it's part of the class. Give us more rupt or give us back amnesia 2300 range.

Give us back amnesia at 2300 ....

what a great mistake shorten amnesia ranhe on bards -.-

Wed 1 Jul 2020 10:13 AM by Noashakra

Gildar wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 10:10 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 10:06 AM
I play bard and yeah it's annoying but it's part of the class. Give us more rupt or give us back amnesia 2300 range.

Give us back amnesia at 2300 ....

what a great mistake shorten amnesia ranhe on bards -.-

It makes the fights vs tanks groups too hard to win with 8man caster groups...

Wed 1 Jul 2020 11:23 AM by Forlornhope

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:19 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:17 AM
Why use endo song, when you have cheap endo pots.
All of alb uses endo pots 100% of the time.

for tank groups is not enough only blue endu pots with value 3!!!!

If you're constantly sprinting, sure.. but that's more a learn to play issue than a bard/endo pot issue. If you're running around constantly sprinting and spamming slam on targets of course you'll run out of endo. all you really need to fix these problems, even if you do over use sprint and don't turn it off once you start your melee is an end replenish pot.

Wed 1 Jul 2020 12:28 PM by Razur Ur

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 11:23 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:19 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:17 AM
Why use endo song, when you have cheap endo pots.
All of alb uses endo pots 100% of the time.

for tank groups is not enough only blue endu pots with value 3!!!!

If you're constantly sprinting, sure.. but that's more a learn to play issue than a bard/endo pot issue. If you're running around constantly sprinting and spamming slam on targets of course you'll run out of endo. all you really need to fix these problems, even if you do over use sprint and don't turn it off once you start your melee is an end replenish pot.

Well, that is a bit too sweeping a statement! It makes a difference if you fight against a caster group or against a tank group. Against a tank group your statement is mostly
true and most of you won't have any problems, but against a casters group where the target casters are permanently running and have stun immunity, the endu goes
out a bit faster and tips like not sprinting permanently won't help at all ;-).

Wed 1 Jul 2020 1:47 PM by Forlornhope

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 12:28 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 11:23 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:19 AM
for tank groups is not enough only blue endu pots with value 3!!!!

If you're constantly sprinting, sure.. but that's more a learn to play issue than a bard/endo pot issue. If you're running around constantly sprinting and spamming slam on targets of course you'll run out of endo. all you really need to fix these problems, even if you do over use sprint and don't turn it off once you start your melee is an end replenish pot.

Well, that is a bit too sweeping a statement! It makes a difference if you fight against a caster group or against a tank group. Against a tank group your statement is mostly
true and most of you won't have any problems, but against a casters group where the target casters are permanently running and have stun immunity, the endu goes
out a bit faster and tips like not sprinting permanently won't help at all ;-).

I have been in that situation numerous times on my hero, the things I mentioned do help and make it possible to beat them even when they're kiting. I don't knnow about the people you play with, but they must be doing something wrong? lol

Wed 1 Jul 2020 2:54 PM by Razur Ur

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jul 2020 1:47 PM
I have been in that situation numerous times on my hero, the things I mentioned do help and make it possible to beat them even when they're kiting. I don't knnow about the people you play with, but they must be doing something wrong? lol

i'm not saying it's impossible to fight without endu song as a tank thanks to endu charges from bottle and items but if the bard can play endu, it just makes some things
more pleasant and the bards where times endu play I think I can enumerate on one hand ^^.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 5:55 AM by Sepplord

The song helps and is useful to be turned on, but it isn't a top priority on inc, which is the baseline argument.
Against a castergroup kiting away the bard has to move and follow durng the fight anyways and can use that time to turn on endu-song.

Forlorn isn't saying that bards should never turn on endusong, but that it is not required for the whole fight to have any chances

Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:37 AM by Nephamael

I played Bard for almost 20 years and after doing some runs after the amnesia nerf i stopped playing Bard on Phoenix.

Bard on Phoenix patch/balance level is inferior to Healer and by far inferior to Sorc. After the nerf the class is a total cripple.

I won't play it again until it get's at least a 2nd dd.

The main problem is, hib grps have just 1 character with 2300 range in all viable 8v8 setups (eld) or 0 in a fulltanker. Even mid tankgrps have at least 2 2300 range rupts (Healer amnesia).
Hib tankgrps can compensate the Bard's lack of long range rupt by pushing but hib castergrps can't do the same.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 6:13 AM by Razur Ur

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:37 AM
I played Bard for almost 20 years and after doing some runs after the amnesia nerf i stopped playing Bard on Phoenix.

Bard on Phoenix patch/balance level is inferior to Healer and by far inferior to Sorc. After the nerf the class is a total cripple.

I won't play it again until it get's at least a 2nd dd.

The main problem is, hib grps have just 1 character with 2300 range in all viable 8v8 setups (eld) or 0 in a fulltanker. Even mid tankgrps have at least 2 2300 range rupts (Healer amnesia).
Hib tankgrps can compensate the Bard's lack of long range rupt by pushing but hib castergrps can't do the same.

problem with hib tanker group is now of course that when pushing as a tank you can't expect great rupt support from the bard thanks to amnesia range nerf.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 6:46 AM by Patron

Grunwave wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:56 AM
Patron wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 5:37 AM
Classes are not mirrored, plz stop to compare the classes. This road not lead into goods...

Hello Person A...
And i am a Hib Player

Have you ever RvR as a bard?

Yes i did. But not on Phoenix.
And what you doing now with this info?

And ofc, i see the bardamnesianerf critically, its not understandable for me why the staff did this and bringing Hibernia such a malus. Just (like everytime) because of some few albs n mids who telling BS and not knowing how this game works.

And i can feel every bardplayer who stop to play this class.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 7:25 AM by Centenario

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:37 AM
Bard on Phoenix patch/balance level is inferior to Healer and by far inferior to Sorc. After the nerf the class is a total cripple.

I disagree, i think the change to amnesia has brought the bard closer to Sorc and Healer.

If the sorc is 9000, the Healer is 10000, the bard used to be 11000, now its 9500, its still over 9000 !!!

Fri 3 Jul 2020 7:30 AM by Kurbsen

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:37 AM
I played Bard for almost 20 years and after doing some runs after the amnesia nerf i stopped playing Bard on Phoenix.

Bard on Phoenix patch/balance level is inferior to Healer and by far inferior to Sorc. After the nerf the class is a total cripple.

I won't play it again until it get's at least a 2nd dd.

The main problem is, hib grps have just 1 character with 2300 range in all viable 8v8 setups (eld) or 0 in a fulltanker. Even mid tankgrps have at least 2 2300 range rupts (Healer amnesia).
Hib tankgrps can compensate the Bard's lack of long range rupt by pushing but hib castergrps can't do the same.

as much as i want 2300 back.. 2000 really isnt terrible.. the only thing you cant amnesia in time is a nearsight.. and a casted amnesia but even then dont matter too much.. Bard really need one of the following tho..(or all).. : Root, Second DD, 2 second cast time on confuse 1500 range, Mezz reduction shield. Give them one of those and they will be in a great spot.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:05 PM by Gildar

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 7:25 AM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:37 AM
Bard on Phoenix patch/balance level is inferior to Healer and by far inferior to Sorc. After the nerf the class is a total cripple.

I disagree, i think the change to amnesia has brought the bard closer to Sorc and Healer.

If the sorc is 9000, the Healer is 10000, the bard used to be 11000, now its 9500, its still over 9000 !!!

Absolutely no !!!
Now:
Sorc 9000, healer 10000 and bard 8000

Amnesia nerf is an unbelivable mistake done by Devs ... they do a GREAT work on this server but with amnesia nerf they disrupt Hib rvr

I also stop playing my bard since amnesia nerf after 2 weeks of test and frustrating RvR clashes

Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:12 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 6:46 AM
its not understandable for me why the staff did this

Because on Phoenix, whoever cries the loudest gets special treatment.

People screamed and bitched and moaned about never being able to outrun Hib groups since their 2300 range spell is instant and breaks speed, unlike the other two realms who had to stop and cast their 2300, giving you a chance to get away. Now Hibs don't have instant Amnesia.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:34 PM by Amser

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:12 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 6:46 AM
its not understandable for me why the staff did this

Because on Phoenix, whoever cries the loudest gets special treatment.

People screamed and bitched and moaned about never being able to outrun Hib groups since their 2300 range spell is instant and breaks speed, unlike the other two realms who had to stop and cast their 2300, giving you a chance to get away. Now Hibs don't have instant Amnesia.

You brought up the exact reason I felt it was nerfed. I'm personally cool with it being 2300 for 8v8/RvR concerns. If they return it back to that distance though, they need to make it so it doesn't drop speed.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 10:34 PM by easytoremember

You talk like 2300 casted amnesia and 2300 instant amnesia were equal, but that aside the cool thing about daoc is the realms aren't copies of one another; you don't need a casted amnesia hib to win with a "crippled" bard(s)

Sat 4 Jul 2020 7:15 AM by Gildar

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 10:34 PM
You talk like 2300 casted amnesia and 2300 instant amnesia were equal, but that aside the cool thing about daoc is the realms aren't copies of one another; you don't need a casted amnesia hib to win with a "crippled" bard(s)

You talk like bards have quickcast ....

On bards amnesia was instant because bards arent casters .... so they cant quickcast amnesia like sorcerers ...

And yes now bards are somewhat "crippled" ... ad sai before, i stop playing mine ... pointless playing an interrupter with no tools to interrupt or broken ones ... bards now have only instamezz ... dd have a short range and to cast it ù have to enter between enemy tanks lol ...

Sat 4 Jul 2020 12:39 PM by Noashakra

Amser wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:34 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:12 PM
Patron wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 6:46 AM
its not understandable for me why the staff did this

Because on Phoenix, whoever cries the loudest gets special treatment.

People screamed and bitched and moaned about never being able to outrun Hib groups since their 2300 range spell is instant and breaks speed, unlike the other two realms who had to stop and cast their 2300, giving you a chance to get away. Now Hibs don't have instant Amnesia.

You brought up the exact reason I felt it was nerfed. I'm personally cool with it being 2300 for 8v8/RvR concerns. If they return it back to that distance though, they need to make it so it doesn't drop speed.

lol no, because it's the only way to make caster groups viable again. Now when you cast amnesia, the tanks don't lose the speed before they are in melee. And lol the sorcerer at the bottom, that's why they are 2 per groups more often than not...

Sat 4 Jul 2020 5:07 PM by Nephamael

You brought up the exact reason I felt it was nerfed. I'm personally cool with it being 2300 for 8v8/RvR concerns. If they return it back to that distance though, they need to make it so it doesn't drop speed.

Mostly as far as i know it was nerfed so smaller groups could outrun 8men without being speed broken.

The best fix would be to set range back to 2300 for rupt and make it so speed doesn't break until target is in 2000 or lower range, but i think that might be not easy to code.

Right now your only chance as a Bard to get interrupt impact into a fight is to heavily overextend into the fight with the natural result of high risk to be exploded, which the other 2 cc classes in the game don't have to take, to make more interrupt impact. (That has been the case before the amnesia nerf too, but therefore the Bard has instant rupts, so he at least outperformed a healer or sorc while being rupted. But now he can't even reach a target putting rupt onto his team from 2300 range, unless he stands inside the tankfight.)
Another problem that brought to Bard is, with his new positioning for rupt he often can only demezz with moc, or he has to decide to stay outside a range where he can rupt no single enemy backliner to be able to demezz.

Tue 7 Jul 2020 2:52 AM by jhaerik

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 9:17 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jun 2020 8:30 AM
Tireless and Longwind are mandatory RA.
So you got endo 4 and reduced sprinting cost, should be enough.

i can't agree with that, because when sprinting with blue endureg value 3 +tl and lw there is no endu regeneration and therefore when
running + styling the endu is used up very fast and especially merc and bm have increased this problem.

i would be interested if you have ever played tank in rvr and which realm to play.

I play a BM and usually only run with endo 3 pots. I very rarely run into any issues with endurance.
You see there is the wonderfully gimped version of Charge BM gets. If you hit that after getting into melee range of a kiting opponent after 1-2 styles you'll find that you basically never run out of endo.

If I had to guess you are using too slow of a shield, spamming slam, not using charge, or spamming your anytime style. All of those will run you out of endo fast. The biggest burner of endo tends to be slam and a lot of people end up, for some reason, using slam twice because they slam into BT for some reason. Also spamming high endo styles SHOULD run you out of endo... bard isn't going to fix that.

Wed 8 Jul 2020 2:25 AM by Nephamael

If I had to guess you are using too slow of a shield, spamming slam, not using charge, or spamming your anytime style. All of those will run you out of endo fast. The biggest burner of endo tends to be slam and a lot of people end up, for some reason, using slam twice because they slam into BT for some reason. Also spamming high endo styles SHOULD run you out of endo... bard isn't going to fix that.

If you toggle sprint off you can save a lot of endu drain, but if you run close to cap swing speed you will still run into endu problems.

I play arms5 qui5 on my bm and i need strong endupots and skin of legion to stay somewhat endu healthy with just endureg3 pots.