"Intentionally Bad" Spell Speclines moved to baseline.

So many complaints come in about the niche speclines that are not really meant to be main specced(my own complaints included). My suggestion is to take all those gimped abilities from those particular lines and make them baseline abilities so no one complains about having to spec for garbage.

There might be one or two spells that would tip the balance that could be left needed to be specced in but the ones that really bring nothing to the table or that should be baseline anyways could be made so.

Hib example druid Nature spec DoT, Pet(grey con pet, may be green by level 50), Damage Shield all made baseline but aoe root, instant root, instant aoe root left as speccable abilities.

Mid example spiritmaster Summoning pet stat buffs, damage shield, pet haste buff made baseline, pulse damage shield, rezz, pet snare proc, pet mezz duration buff left specced.

Alb example cleric Smite self damage add and instant pbaoe dd moved baseline, rest left specced.

There are other classes with useless spec lines as well. Hib is obviously the one with the most spell lines that never warrant speccing 50 in, (Nature, Enchantments, Mentalism) alb just has really strong lines that make their average spell lines worthless but not gimp. Mid is mostly balanced among spellines.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 6:16 PM by gotwqqd

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 6:13 PM
So many complaints come in about the niche speclines that are not really meant to be main specced(my own complaints included). My suggestion is to take all those gimped abilities from those particular lines and make them baseline abilities so no one complains about having to spec for garbage.

There might be one or two spells that would tip the balance that could be left needed to be specced in but the ones that really bring nothing to the table or that should be baseline anyways could be made so.

Hib example druid Nature spec DoT, Pet(grey con pet, may be green by level 50), Damage Shield all made baseline but aoe root, instant root, instant aoe root left as speccable abilities.

Mid example spiritmaster Summoning pet stat buffs, damage shield, pet haste buff made baseline, pulse damage shield, rezz, pet snare proc, pet mezz duration buff left specced.

Alb example cleric Smite self damage add and instant pbaoe dd moved baseline, rest left specced.

There are other classes with useless spec lines as well. Hib is obviously the one with the most spell lines that never warrant speccing 50 in, (Nature, Enchantments, Mentalism) alb just has really strong lines that make their average spell lines worthless but not gimp. Mid is mostly balanced among spellines.

And how will those classses get nerfed?

Mon 22 Jun 2020 6:18 PM by Bradekes

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 6:16 PM
And how will those classses get nerfed?

Why nerf them? The Devs have labeled certain spelline as literally "intentionally gimp" they will never be made worthwhile so if they aren't worthwhile then they are not going to unbalance the class if they are made baseline.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 8:49 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 6:18 PM
Why nerf them? The Devs have labeled certain spelline as literally "intentionally gimp" they will never be made worthwhile so if they aren't worthwhile then they are not going to unbalance the class if they are made baseline.

Because just having a bad spec line compared to the other two doesn't make all of the abilities in that line bad.

Would you really be fine with the extra power a Spiritmaster would gain from having all those buffs on his chain-stunning intercepting pet all the time now?

Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:30 PM by Bradekes

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 8:49 PM
Because just having a bad spec line compared to the other two doesn't make all of the abilities in that line bad.

Would you really be fine with the extra power a Spiritmaster would gain from having all those buffs on his chain-stunning intercepting pet all the time now?

AFAIK the Spiritmaster pet intercept ability shouldn't factor in ABS so the buffs would do nothing to prolong your melee or ranged fight with an SM. If that's not how the ability is operating then the devs need to fix it.

If it made SM overpowered then the pet would have buffs from the main buffers in the group with all the extra conc they added awhile back anyways.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:55 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:30 PM
If it made SM overpowered then the pet would have buffs from the main buffers in the group with all the extra conc they added awhile back anyways.

How much concentration do you think buffers have where a single Shaman can spec 8 people, endo 8 people, and have conc left for a pet? You're lucky if a single shaman can fully spec and endo your entire group if it includes any casters. Aug Healers are in the same boat, I had to spec aug acuity 2 just to have enough conc to fully buff my melee group.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 10:04 PM by Bradekes

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:55 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:30 PM
If it made SM overpowered then the pet would have buffs from the main buffers in the group with all the extra conc they added awhile back anyways.

How much concentration do you think buffers have where a single Shaman can spec 8 people, endo 8 people, and have conc left for a pet? You're lucky if a single shaman can fully spec and endo your entire group if it includes any casters. Aug Healers are in the same boat, I had to spec aug acuity 2 just to have enough conc to fully buff my melee group.

Why did you skip the first part of my response? Where it doesn't matter anyways.

I still think it's fair if the respective classes from the other realms also gain access to the buffs from their third spec. It just doesn't make sense to act like there's not a problem with there being specs that bring nothing to the table when these classes only have 3 spec lines to train in.

Also sounds like you should of rolled frosty

Mon 29 Jun 2020 7:24 AM by Sepplord

So the solution to useless specclines is to buff the other specclines by giving more stuff baseline?

Yeah...seriously...i can't follow that reasoning at all

Mon 29 Jun 2020 11:59 AM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jun 2020 7:24 AM
So the solution to useless specclines is to buff the other specclines by giving more stuff baseline?

Yeah...seriously...i can't follow that reasoning at all

Having useless speclines makes a class weaker and less versatile overall by making it very predictable. If some of the very very poor utility from those speclines was made baseline it would atleast make the classes more balanced overall.

Most of the useless things gained from these speclines are pretty bad and wouldn't result in the class becoming noticeably stronger.

I also don't think doing absolutely nothing is the right answer. Just spit balling some ideas to maybe get the devs brains some juice to get something going.

They obviously don't want to buff these speclines as they've mentioned so moving some of the abilities to baseline is a reasonable idea that seems fair to those classes with less options.

Mon 29 Jun 2020 2:56 PM by Sepplord

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jun 2020 11:59 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jun 2020 7:24 AM
So the solution to useless specclines is to buff the other specclines by giving more stuff baseline?

Yeah...seriously...i can't follow that reasoning at all

Having useless speclines makes a class weaker and less versatile overall by making it very predictable. If some of the very very poor utility from those speclines was made baseline it would atleast make the classes more balanced overall.

Most of the useless things gained from these speclines are pretty bad and wouldn't result in the class becoming noticeably stronger.

I also don't think doing absolutely nothing is the right answer. Just spit balling some ideas to maybe get the devs brains some juice to get something going.

They obviously don't want to buff these speclines as they've mentioned so moving some of the abilities to baseline is a reasonable idea that seems fair to those classes with less options.

Yeah, okay i at least see now where you are coming from...
The thing is, i don't feel like all classes that have shitty speclines are underpowered or unbalanced to begin with. Shaman healline is a joke and not worth speccing, yet i doubt buffing shamans is any poriority but the lowest.
You are trying to advocate a change that has the potential to buff strong classes, or in the best case "would not result in the class becoming notably stronger".... if the stuff given baseline is that useless, why do such a change at all?

I agree that "doing nothing" is most often not the right answer...but doing something just to avoid "doing nothing" and without any other reason is definitely worse

Mon 29 Jun 2020 3:46 PM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jun 2020 2:56 PM
Yeah, okay i at least see now where you are coming from...
The thing is, i don't feel like all classes that have shitty speclines are underpowered or unbalanced to begin with. Shaman healline is a joke and not worth speccing, yet i doubt buffing shamans is any poriority but the lowest.
You are trying to advocate a change that has the potential to buff strong classes, or in the best case "would not result in the class becoming notably stronger".... if the stuff given baseline is that useless, why do such a change at all?

I agree that "doing nothing" is most often not the right answer...but doing something just to avoid "doing nothing" and without any other reason is definitely worse

You're right in the fact that doing something can actually do more harm than nothing. You're also right in the fact that most of the classes with useless specs are mostly balanced.

The reason I see for doing such a change would come in more of a form of not feeling cheated when you choose to play one of those classes.

I may only be speaking for myself here but for example, when I play on my enchanter I so wish the enchantment line was on a similar level to cabalist vivification and not a pile of trash. If I could have a buffed pet and some reasonable amount of ranged utility. But enchanter really just has one viable spec high enough mana for resist debuff rest light.

When I play my druid I wish nature was worth speccing in other than for aoe/instant roots where it felt like a solid spec that was semi-rewarding to play.

These two are my personal examples and Warden being worth speccing melee similar to friar would be my other wish.

Hibernia in general is just forced to play their classes one way and no other it makes the whole realm boring.

It's not that they need these check marks to be a playable class it's that these classes aren't enjoyable to play for me and others that have complained on the forums.

Tue 30 Jun 2020 1:54 PM by Killaloth

Having played all realms damage add on Mana chanters and ABS buff on Arboreal animists is what is lacking on Hib, while so easily available on Alb and Mid.

I don't think that moving spells to base line is the right idea.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 8:51 PM by jhaerik

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jun 2020 3:46 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jun 2020 2:56 PM
Yeah, okay i at least see now where you are coming from...
The thing is, i don't feel like all classes that have shitty speclines are underpowered or unbalanced to begin with. Shaman healline is a joke and not worth speccing, yet i doubt buffing shamans is any poriority but the lowest.
You are trying to advocate a change that has the potential to buff strong classes, or in the best case "would not result in the class becoming notably stronger".... if the stuff given baseline is that useless, why do such a change at all?

I agree that "doing nothing" is most often not the right answer...but doing something just to avoid "doing nothing" and without any other reason is definitely worse

You're right in the fact that doing something can actually do more harm than nothing. You're also right in the fact that most of the classes with useless specs are mostly balanced.

The reason I see for doing such a change would come in more of a form of not feeling cheated when you choose to play one of those classes.

I may only be speaking for myself here but for example, when I play on my enchanter I so wish the enchantment line was on a similar level to cabalist vivification and not a pile of trash. If I could have a buffed pet and some reasonable amount of ranged utility. But enchanter really just has one viable spec high enough mana for resist debuff rest light.

When I play my druid I wish nature was worth speccing in other than for aoe/instant roots where it felt like a solid spec that was semi-rewarding to play.

These two are my personal examples and Warden being worth speccing melee similar to friar would be my other wish.

Hibernia in general is just forced to play their classes one way and no other it makes the whole realm boring.

It's not that they need these check marks to be a playable class it's that these classes aren't enjoyable to play for me and others that have complained on the forums.

To be fair the only realm that gets any choice in their group comps/specs is Mid.
They get the choice of Hammer or HAHMAH!

But seriously though it's just a player mind set more than anything. You can make other specs work but generally only in a sidecar.. and people have this weird idea that RvR only comes in 3 favors in paper DAoC. Solo duel, 8v8, and zerging towers/keeps. Personally I love sidecars. Either they are soft targets you can actually get a couple kills on when you are at a serious RR advantage on, or generally turn forgone conclusions into interesting fights.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 10:38 PM by gotwqqd

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 8:51 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jun 2020 3:46 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jun 2020 2:56 PM
Yeah, okay i at least see now where you are coming from...
The thing is, i don't feel like all classes that have shitty speclines are underpowered or unbalanced to begin with. Shaman healline is a joke and not worth speccing, yet i doubt buffing shamans is any poriority but the lowest.
You are trying to advocate a change that has the potential to buff strong classes, or in the best case "would not result in the class becoming notably stronger".... if the stuff given baseline is that useless, why do such a change at all?

I agree that "doing nothing" is most often not the right answer...but doing something just to avoid "doing nothing" and without any other reason is definitely worse

You're right in the fact that doing something can actually do more harm than nothing. You're also right in the fact that most of the classes with useless specs are mostly balanced.

The reason I see for doing such a change would come in more of a form of not feeling cheated when you choose to play one of those classes.

I may only be speaking for myself here but for example, when I play on my enchanter I so wish the enchantment line was on a similar level to cabalist vivification and not a pile of trash. If I could have a buffed pet and some reasonable amount of ranged utility. But enchanter really just has one viable spec high enough mana for resist debuff rest light.

When I play my druid I wish nature was worth speccing in other than for aoe/instant roots where it felt like a solid spec that was semi-rewarding to play.

These two are my personal examples and Warden being worth speccing melee similar to friar would be my other wish.

Hibernia in general is just forced to play their classes one way and no other it makes the whole realm boring.

It's not that they need these check marks to be a playable class it's that these classes aren't enjoyable to play for me and others that have complained on the forums.

To be fair the only realm that gets any choice in their group comps/specs is Mid.
They get the choice of Hammer or HAHMAH!

But seriously though it's just a player mind set more than anything. You can make other specs work but generally only in a sidecar.. and people have this weird idea that RvR only comes in 3 favors in paper DAoC. Solo duel, 8v8, and zerging towers/keeps. Personally I love sidecars. Either they are soft targets you can actually get a couple kills on when you are at a serious RR advantage on, or generally turn forgone conclusions into interesting fights.

Yup
People need to just do what they like, not disregard other lines or specs because someone else said they are no goid

Fri 3 Jul 2020 1:11 AM by Bradekes

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 8:51 PM
To be fair the only realm that gets any choice in their group comps/specs is Mid.
They get the choice of Hammer or HAHMAH!

But seriously though it's just a player mind set more than anything. You can make other specs work but generally only in a sidecar.. and people have this weird idea that RvR only comes in 3 favors in paper DAoC. Solo duel, 8v8, and zerging towers/keeps. Personally I love sidecars. Either they are soft targets you can actually get a couple kills on when you are at a serious RR advantage on, or generally turn forgone conclusions into interesting fights.

For one, I am not familiar with the term "sidecar" and I don't think poor specs are a mindset. It is an apparent lack of utility/damage/synergy within those specs that causes the issue, not a lack of imagination. Sure one could take the time to play them at their very highest potential, but in the end you will just be disappointed with your character and spec a more traditional way.

Also mid weapon choices are all good. The problem is hammer is exceptional with its backsnare and especially it's endo use, so it is not exactly the same issue. Mid melee kinda in the same boat as wizard. Earth Magic just too good to spec any other way but the other ways aren't really bad.