Melees are funneled into hammer on Mid, can we take a look into balancing the specs a bit?

Hi All,

First off I wanna say that I think this server is great fun and I think you all have done a wonderful job.

Just wanted to take a look into melee spec options on Mid... I remember 2H Troll Berserkers going 50 Sword and hitting extremely hard back in the day. I'm not sure what's changed, but no one runs sword on Mid. I did check the growth rate of Ragnarok, and it's lower than the entire backstyle chain for Left Axe. With the changes to bleed, axe becomes more of a reality for Mids, but I don't think many people will pick a bleed style over a 60 percent snare (on the hammer line). I just wanted to see if we could create some more options for specs on Mid, to create some possibilities for trade-off. I.E, if I want to do more damage against most targets, I could go 2H sword, if I wanted more utility, hammer. Left axe is in a really nice place, but I do think that there should be some sort of decision that I should be making as to whether I want to be putting out a bunch of swings quickly, or a big burst with the 2H; right now, I strictly use dual-wield all the time, even after a nice stun where I might be able to get 2 or 3 big 2H swings in.

Anyway, tyvm for reading

Mon 22 Jun 2020 3:26 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Reklewt wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 3:18 PM
I'm not sure what's changed, but no one runs sword on Mid

Aside from the ease of enemies to kite you when using anything but hammer styles, these other factors play a role (as they do in all three realms): short range endo, forced to use blue endo pots with no option of going higher, only one level of Tireless.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 3:37 PM by labra

can't remember, is there an immune to snare from styles?

Mon 22 Jun 2020 4:07 PM by Bradekes

labra wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 3:37 PM
can't remember, is there an immune to snare from styles?

Melee snare only gain immunity if the target gets rooted or snared by non-damaging snare spells that aren't unbreakable.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 4:25 PM by labra

Maybe there's something to dig there too

Mon 22 Jun 2020 11:42 PM by

gruenesschaf

What changed is the meta shift to snaring / peeling making any line that doesn't have a back snare unable to compete with a line that does have one. This meta shift and hence exclusion of pretty much all but one line per realm is a pretty major part in what prompted live to do the style redesign where the lines kind of became a cosmetic choice instead.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 5:00 AM by daytonchambers

Axes looked appealing for the first day of the bleed change.

Then the bleed change got nerfed, and now its hammers or bust again =(

Tue 23 Jun 2020 6:51 AM by Kimahri

shadowblades with at least half a brain are also forced into axe, there is just no reason to take sword atm

Tue 23 Jun 2020 6:53 AM by labra

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 11:42 PM
What changed is the meta shift to snaring / peeling making any line that doesn't have a back snare unable to compete with a line that does have one. This meta shift and hence exclusion of pretty much all but one line per realm is a pretty major part in what prompted live to do the style redesign where the lines kind of became a cosmetic choice instead.

Is that what you have in mind with the style review? Having more diversity in other lines?

Tue 23 Jun 2020 10:45 AM by gromet12

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 5:00 AM
Axes looked appealing for the first day of the bleed change.

Then the bleed change got nerfed, and now its hammers or bust again =(

True but the bleeds are low on axe and would rarely stack over 50 as is with 2 part 9 bleed dmg frontal. The bleed change needed to happen, it benefited one realm line over all the others

Hammers is also about the weapon procs, I like axe but hamer is better due to dex/quick debuffs, axe gets the shaft in weapons and the procs, the benefit is supposed to be higher style dmg but they line up closely to hammer except for the frontal positionals

Tue 23 Jun 2020 1:45 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Kimahri wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 6:51 AM
shadowblades with at least half a brain are also forced into axe, there is just no reason to take sword atm

When did this happen?

It was sword or nothing for a year due to the TG str/con debuff sword.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 6:32 PM by gotwqqd

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 10:45 AM
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 5:00 AM
Axes looked appealing for the first day of the bleed change.

Then the bleed change got nerfed, and now its hammers or bust again =(

True but the bleeds are low on axe and would rarely stack over 50 as is with 2 part 9 bleed dmg frontal. The bleed change needed to happen, it benefited one realm line over all the others

Hammers is also about the weapon procs, I like axe but hamer is better due to dex/quick debuffs, axe gets the shaft in weapons and the procs, the benefit is supposed to be higher style dmg but they line up closely to hammer except for the frontal positionals

Yes
Axe bleeds need to be upped or chained to make this a choice worth considering

Tue 23 Jun 2020 6:46 PM by Kimahri

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 1:45 PM
Kimahri wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 6:51 AM
shadowblades with at least half a brain are also forced into axe, there is just no reason to take sword atm

When did this happen?

It was sword or nothing for a year due to the TG str/con debuff sword.

Happened a while back when they nerfed the swords ability to stack con debuff with enervating poison

Tue 23 Jun 2020 6:47 PM by Saroi

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 1:45 PM
Kimahri wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 6:51 AM
shadowblades with at least half a brain are also forced into axe, there is just no reason to take sword atm

When did this happen?

It was sword or nothing for a year due to the TG str/con debuff sword.

Axe has always been superior since the start. With Dragonmight you can have Triple dot on enemy and since the last dot change dots got stronger. Axe has 4.2 weaponspeed with damage procs(either Rog or crafted), Sword only 4.0. Axe has anytime ASR and a strong side ASR which makes it a must for any Shadowzerk.

Wed 24 Jun 2020 3:43 AM by daytonchambers

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 10:45 AM
True but the bleeds are low on axe and would rarely stack over 50 as is with 2 part 9 bleed dmg frontal. The bleed change needed to happen, it benefited one realm line over all the others

On the first day of the change I was experimenting on my SB that is still leveling (so no Tyr's Fury) with some success using bleed stacking. I was using fast weapons to get multiple evade bleeds from Raider, as well as Evernight back positional bleeds after a stun.

Was theorycrafting a heavy Axe mainhand spec with fast weapons to get a ton of bleeds on a target as fast as possible, since the bleed damage is the same regardless of weapon speed. Pair that damage with dot procs and poisons and you could get a boatload of damage over time on somebody.

Now with the reduction I'll go for a more traditional spec, just like everybody else =(

Wed 24 Jun 2020 9:23 PM by Nephamael

Actually i hugely agree it would be great to enable more weapontypes to be evenly strong to each other or have tools the other types dont have making them attractive.

I suggest either balancing all snares to match duration: for example: (hib) 2 style blunt sidesnare only snares 19 sec while blade sidesnare has 14 sec duration with just 1 style and piercing 1 style 15 sec = blunt sidesnare is much 2 short for needing 2 styles
// compare with (alb) thrust anytime 2 style snare = 27 sec duration, slash 1 style side 12 sec duration, crush doesn't have a positional or anytime snare but a anytime stun combo, so it has a special thing the others don't have
// (mid) axe anytime 2 style snare only 11 sec duration, hammer 1 style back snare at 23 sec!!! duration and on top a sidestyle 1 style snare 15 sec duration..., sword anytime 2 style snare only 9 sec duration, 2 style side snare only 15 sec duration

// (hib) large weapon 19 sec front style snare 1 style, celtic spear 11 sec 1 style backsnare
// (alb) twohander 11 sec 2 style anytime snare, 12s 1 style backsnare, 14s 1 style sidesnare (both positionals have decent to good growthrate so the duration is fine), polearm 12s anytime 1 style snare, 31 sec 2 style backstyle snare (pole is slow swing speed so both are ok)

I suggest putting all positional 2 style snares to at least 25 sec duration (can vary a bit depending on to hit rate and growthrate) and putting all anytime combo snares to not more than 25s (depending on to hit/growthrate), its anytimers!!!

Axe could use a positional snare or have the anytime duration hugely increased, sword needs the anytime 2 style snare duration hugely increased and the 2 style sidesnare, slash needs more duration on the 1 style snare, crush needs a positional snare, blunt 2 style sidesnare needs a longer duration, celtic spear needs higher growthrates

or
--the only other way to balance would be giving the weapontypes with bad or no snares a huge growthrate boost--

Sun 28 Jun 2020 7:10 PM by Reklewt

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Jun 2020 9:23 PM
Actually i hugely agree it would be great to enable more weapontypes to be evenly strong to each other or have tools the other types dont have making them attractive.

I suggest either balancing all snares to match duration: for example: (hib) 2 style blunt sidesnare only snares 19 sec while blade sidesnare has 14 sec duration with just 1 style and piercing 1 style 15 sec = blunt sidesnare is much 2 short for needing 2 styles
// compare with (alb) thrust anytime 2 style snare = 27 sec duration, slash 1 style side 12 sec duration, crush doesn't have a positional or anytime snare but a anytime stun combo, so it has a special thing the others don't have
// (mid) axe anytime 2 style snare only 11 sec duration, hammer 1 style back snare at 23 sec!!! duration and on top a sidestyle 1 style snare 15 sec duration..., sword anytime 2 style snare only 9 sec duration, 2 style side snare only 15 sec duration

// (hib) large weapon 19 sec front style snare 1 style, celtic spear 11 sec 1 style backsnare
// (alb) twohander 11 sec 2 style anytime snare, 12s 1 style backsnare, 14s 1 style sidesnare (both positionals have decent to good growthrate so the duration is fine), polearm 12s anytime 1 style snare, 31 sec 2 style backstyle snare (pole is slow swing speed so both are ok)

I suggest putting all positional 2 style snares to at least 25 sec duration (can vary a bit depending on to hit rate and growthrate) and putting all anytime combo snares to not more than 25s (depending on to hit/growthrate), its anytimers!!!

Axe could use a positional snare or have the anytime duration hugely increased, sword needs the anytime 2 style snare duration hugely increased and the 2 style sidesnare, slash needs more duration on the 1 style snare, crush needs a positional snare, blunt 2 style sidesnare needs a longer duration, celtic spear needs higher growthrates

or
--the only other way to balance would be giving the weapontypes with bad or no snares a huge growthrate boost--

The latter is really interesting to me... that's what I think should happen. If you decide to go Sword, then you miss out on the back snare from hammer line, but you can hit really hard. You make a decision between being a primary peeler or primary damage. I like the variety and choice.

I have a warrior that is specced sword in Thidranki right now, and it is insanely fun. I will be giving it a go at 50.