Bleed Cap Discussion - Phoenix Freeshard

Whilst the bleed change is fresh in everyones mind as its only been a few days.

Initially, theorycraft of the Dual Shadows style showed that the 200 damage cap was too high. Therefore, a 50 damage cap was introduced.

However, this seems to punish all other bleedstyles for the sake of one style. It may be useful to raise the bleed cap to 100ish and then run some tests to see what value to lower the specific dual shadows bleed value. My guess is probably 10ish for Merc and 6ish for inf.

Has anyone got any opinions?
Should other styles have their values increased
e.g. Axe in Mid so that it can compete with hammer for usage?

Tue 23 Jun 2020 2:44 PM by Saroi

I don't see much punishment for other styles with the cap. As a SB even with PA and getting Harmstring and Leaper off, I never managed to reach the cap of 50. And it is also not achieveable with a purge in fight.

The only one who really benefits from a cap of 100 would be Merc alone but then the ticks would get really strong. Before the cap lowered to 50 I had fought a Merc and he stacked on me to 93 damage and I had to kite him before he stacked more on me. A cap of 100 would mean 74 ticks on resist and this also bypasses Armor of tanks.

The cap is a nerf to Mercs in my opinion though because no on hit damage anymore and 2x Dual Shadows usually did more damage than the tick of 37.

I don't know if it is possible but having an certain on hit effect when reaching the cap would be nice. Like when you reach cap, your bleed styles will deal 50% damage on hit while refreshing the bleed timer.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 3:31 PM by Blitze

I guess the main problem and big question is...
Is balancing bleeds (so that they are useful in various realms speccs) impossible due to Dual Shadows?

Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:03 PM by Bradekes

Why not raise cap to 90 but reduce the amount of bleed damage that stacks passed 50 damage and reduce bleed duration by 60%. So after you accumulate 50 bleed damage the amount you accumulate drops by 50% every 10 bleed damage accumulated.

0-50 100% so 25 damage from dual shadows
50-60 50% so 12
60-70 25% so 6
70-80 12% so 3
80-90 6% so 1

That way it doesn't stack so quickly and the dps from dual shadows bleed on every hit isn't nerfed.

Either that or cap bleeds at 67damage which is 4(bleed tick)/1.5(weapon speed cap)×25(dual shadow bleed damage)

Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:22 PM by labra

Why not simply tweak dual shadow and lower the bleed effect?

Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:25 PM by Bradekes

labra wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:22 PM
Why not simply tweak dual shadow and lower the bleed effect?

Why nerf merc for no reason tho? The point of bleeds stacking was to make them relevant not nerf.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:28 PM by Noashakra

The problem of the merc was never the lack of damage...
It's the lack of peel in groups, nothing else.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:29 PM by labra

Before the change it was a 25 bleed. Now it's a 50 one (easy to reach).
Lowering the bleed effect in double shadow and raising the max bleeding damage would be an up for everyone I believe, not a nerf

Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:34 PM by Bradekes

labra wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:29 PM
Before the change it was a 25 bleed. Now it's a 50 one (easy to reach).
Lowering the bleed effect in double shadow and raising the max bleeding damage would be an up for everyone I believe, not a nerf

The only way it's not a nerf to their dps is the duration of the bleed letting them use other styles while the bleed ticks. But 50dmg every 4 seconds is a nerf to their dps when spamming dual shadows.

If they had speed cap weapon they would do more dps without this change.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:39 PM by Cadebrennus

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:28 PM
The problem of the merc was never the lack of damage...
It's the lack of peel in groups, nothing else.

There are plenty of peels available to Mercs. The lack of peels is a player problem, not a class problem.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:44 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:28 PM
The problem of the merc was never the lack of damage...
It's the lack of peel in groups, nothing else.

There are snares in every weapon line plus they get shield spec, there's no way a decent Merc should have difficulty peeling.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:47 PM by Cadebrennus

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:44 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Jun 2020 4:28 PM
The problem of the merc was never the lack of damage...
It's the lack of peel in groups, nothing else.

There are snares in every weapon line plus they get shield spec, there's no way a decent Merc should have difficulty peeling.

Agreed. Operative word here being "decent".

Tue 23 Jun 2020 9:57 PM by Noashakra

The thing is the meta doesn't allow the merc to shine in most groups, because there are better peelers in alb. That's the problem of the merc. You have better options for this job.

Tue 23 Jun 2020 10:09 PM by gotwqqd

Since the stacking cap has been reduced I’d like to see something replace that damage....how about a stacking 3-5% snare?

It would open up a lot of viable weapon lines and styles

Wed 24 Jun 2020 9:25 AM by Fyah

Why not pass tick bleed 4 sec too 2 sec or maybe 1 sec with a cap at 25-40

Wed 24 Jun 2020 10:34 AM by Blitze

Or give each bleed style its own stack that can reach 50...

That means that although Dual shadows is the still the outright best bleedstyle, if given long enough time the lower level bleeds can stack up.

For example a thrust merc with 2.0 weapon swing...

Attacks 2 times with dual shadows to get his 50 damage rolling for the next 40 seconds (9-10 ticks).
Then over the next 40 seconds (20 swings) attacks 10 times with puncture and 10 times with the followup: bloody dance and in doing so stacks a 30 bleed and a 40 bleed on the target.
Then refresh Dual shadows x2. and finally, back to 3-4 more puncture/bloody dance chains to stack them to 50 each...
This will give after 1min 30 sec 3 x 50 damage bleeds running (which would tick for 111damage on a 26damage target).

Wed 24 Jun 2020 11:27 AM by jhaerik

IMHO just raise the groth rate slightly on Twin Shadows (maybe .89 instead of .83) and lower the bleed to 20.

2 TS wouldn't reach the cap that way.

Wed 24 Jun 2020 11:39 AM by Centenario

Just do

50/stylebleed damage

Then Cap= result^2 * Stylebleed damage/2

For a style that does 5bleed damage then:

50/5=10

10*10*5/2=250 damage cap

For a Style that does 25 bleed damge

50/25=2

2*2*25/2=4*12.5=50

For a style that does 14 damage

50/14=3.57...
3.57..^2=12.75...
12.75..*14=178

Wed 24 Jun 2020 12:19 PM by inoeth

imo the bleed change was a nice idea but the only two classes that benefit from it are indeed merc and infi. all other classes do not have high tick bleed styles which you can stack quickly to be effective without screwing up your whole spec.
therefore it is very questionable if the change is a good thing at all.

Wed 24 Jun 2020 3:12 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Jun 2020 12:19 PM
imo the bleed change was a nice idea but the only two classes that benefit from it are indeed merc and infi. all other classes do not have high tick bleed styles which you can stack quickly to be effective without screwing up your whole spec.
therefore it is very questionable if the change is a good thing at all.

IMO they put the cart before the horse on this one. They should have waited until after the style revamp and then decided if making bleeds stack would be worth it.

Wed 24 Jun 2020 3:33 PM by Amser

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Jun 2020 12:19 PM
imo the bleed change was a nice idea but the only two classes that benefit from it are indeed merc and infi. all other classes do not have high tick bleed styles which you can stack quickly to be effective without screwing up your whole spec.
therefore it is very questionable if the change is a good thing at all.

I would say all assassins benefit from this not just Infi. CS line is loaded with bleeds. PA, SS. Hamstring chain.

Wed 24 Jun 2020 11:15 PM by gotwqqd

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Jun 2020 3:12 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Jun 2020 12:19 PM
imo the bleed change was a nice idea but the only two classes that benefit from it are indeed merc and infi. all other classes do not have high tick bleed styles which you can stack quickly to be effective without screwing up your whole spec.
therefore it is very questionable if the change is a good thing at all.

IMO they put the cart before the horse on this one. They should have waited until after the style revamp and then decided if making bleeds stack would be worth it.

I don’t agree
Bleeds were pretty pointless
And some weapon lines(axe) and chains are designed around bleeds
So giving bleeds a change with purpose was needed
Now they can tune the styles with knowing the impact of stacked bleeds

Wed 24 Jun 2020 11:33 PM by Bradekes

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Jun 2020 11:15 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Jun 2020 3:12 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Jun 2020 12:19 PM
imo the bleed change was a nice idea but the only two classes that benefit from it are indeed merc and infi. all other classes do not have high tick bleed styles which you can stack quickly to be effective without screwing up your whole spec.
therefore it is very questionable if the change is a good thing at all.

IMO they put the cart before the horse on this one. They should have waited until after the style revamp and then decided if making bleeds stack would be worth it.
I don’t agree
Bleeds were pretty pointless
And some weapon lines(axe) and chains are designed around bleeds
So giving bleeds a change with purpose was needed
Now they can tune the styles with knowing the impact of stacked bleeds

That's a fair argument. Still seems like it could be predicted as to how it would affect things based on the fact that only certain styles have bleeds

Thu 25 Jun 2020 7:51 AM by Centenario

I was playing with a stealther recently and some fights last only 10seconds if you don't have purge up, in where you don't even have time to land multiple bleeds.

Realistically, the bleeds style damage could grow with weapon spec, so that all bleed style at 50 weapon do 25 damage per application.
When you hit people at 50-150 damage per 1.5 second (or more) and some people QQ about a 50 damage bleed every 4sec...
I think stacking even to 100 should be doable, if they would nerf the duration to 12 second, so 3*100*(1-0.26)= 222 (one extra hit for lower hit bonus and growth damage) if it takes you a while to get the styles in and since the duration refreshes after each application then you might see more damage after the fight is finished.

Thu 25 Jun 2020 10:28 PM by daytonchambers

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Jun 2020 7:51 AM
"When you hit people at 50-150 damage per 1.5 second (or more) and some people QQ about a 50 damage bleed every 4sec..."

The issue is not the 50 damage bleed.

The issue is that you can achieve that cap in two swings then move on to higher growth styles while still capping bleed damage. Nobody else can do that.