Friar style review Suggestions

FAO Devs

Firstly, I’d like to commend you guys for the work you have spent on Friars already, you have helped turn them from the least popular class to lower-middle. Additionally, you have done this relatively gently with minor buffs and nerfs mixed in (reflex change/dodger removal).

Therefore, in light of the Bleed change and for the upcoming style review (removal of long chains etc) I have put together a tweaked friar Staff list as In my opinion Friars Staff is a bit of a mess and a few tweaks could make Friars smoother and more fun to play without being close to overpowering.

Current style info is a brackets.

Styles:
Lvl2 - no change
Lvl4 - Figure eight - Keep same but add a 3 damage bleed (evade reactionary)
Lvl6 - Friars Ally - no change (3s stun after Figure Eight)
Lvl8 - Defenders Fury - no change (ASR red anytime)
Lvl 10 - Quick Strike - keep same but add a 4 dmg bleed or a crush resist debuff (after Defenders Fury)
Lvl12 - Friars Redress - no change (detaunt)
Lvl15 - Double strike - change it to a parry reactive Bleedstyle (Bleedstyle after Figure Eight).
Lvl18 - Friar’s Friend - no change (sidesnare)
Lvl21 - Counter Evade - no change (evade Reactionary snare)
Lvl 25 - Banish - make it after double strike (between Friars Friend and Stunning staff)
Lvl 29 - Friar’s Boon - no change (taunt)
Lvl 34 - Holy Staff - rearsnare //already changed// (was a useless anytime)
Lvl 39 - Friars Fury - no change (Bleed after counter evade)
Lvl 44 - Stunning Staff - 8s stunstyle, make it chain directly from Friars Friend (chains from banish)
LASTLY...
Lvl 50 - Excommunicate - Only weird options Left here... with side/back positionals and, evade/party reactions taken. Therefore, we are left with:
A. Frontal Style or
B. Follow-up after Holy staff Backstyle
Then what effect?
1. High ~34% ASR
2. Pbaoe ASR
3. Pbaoe Absorb debuff
4. Pbaoe Celerity
5. 9s stun
6. Pbaoe stun
7. Pbaoe 5s disarm (akin to the Friars RR5)
8. 25damage bleed
9. DD
10. heal proc
11. DD + healproc (akin to live Exc style)
12. Group HoT (akin to live Holy Staff)
13. 50 second snare
14. Pbaoe snare
15. Crush resist debuff

I understand that These excommunicate Suggestions may seem OP but with 1.5 specc points Friars have to give up Both redbuffs and Decent healing to get 50 staff...(50staff, 38ench, 16rejuv) Therefore it should be very good.

TLDR:
Add some bleeds to lowbie styles and rejig them so they’re useful-ish at 50.
Add in a parry reactionary early on
Change 3part sidechain stun to 2part
Make Excommunicate useful in anyway.

Sun 21 Jun 2020 9:44 PM by Centenario

It feels like only buffs and no nerfs.
Gotta review growth rates offensive and defensive bonus and endo cost as well.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:46 AM by Neso

Looking at Friar melee styles on the char builder, and its apparent Mythic ran out of ideas with this class early on.
Their (decent) stun at 8 seconds is at 44, which is 3rd in chain.
They can spec parry, but their only parry reactive is at 50 staff (with no additional effects).

OP suggestions seem pretty reasonable. Didn't Friars on Live get a heal proc on (50 staff) Excommunicate?

Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:53 AM by labra

They had a few custom style that might be too op for this server .

However, I hope the style change to be effective, to check how it changes the game meta.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:57 AM by Blitze

Friars were an early designed class with so many mistakes embedded in (e.g. in the very early days Str was kept as rising stat when staff was changed to 100%Dex).

It’s a similar story with other early style lines.. Midgard has no one speccing Axe/Sword, Armsmen never spec 2handed.

But, Currently the Friar staff line has two things going for it:
1. A better than average anytime (good GR, to hit and med end)
2. Low damage high endurance snare.

(Kinda similar to the Hammer line in Midgard, with a good low end anytime and nice snares).

Compare with Reav/VW/savage which have poor anytimes, devastating positionals and good reactionaries.

Importantly, I think it would be terrible If homogenisation of all class style lines was to occur and anytimes, positionals & reactionaries we’re moderated to be similar GRs, end, to-hit, respectively....cos I think a lot of what I like about this patch level would be lost. For example, I don’t want my Friars to have high GR positionals at the cost of the snares or a good anytime.
Which is why I’ve suggested opening up alternate Friar specs (with higher Staff that no one does here) or giving niche uses to the lower staff styles.

The real crux of this style review (and I am sure all the major headaches) will come from the Reaver 4part chain ending in massive Lifetap and the Valewalker 3part chain ending in big Pbaoe. All other problems/changes will seem small.

And that probably stems from the fact that VW/Reav/Savage have great style lines that define their role as a variant DPS light tanks. And giving them better anytimes and significantly Lower damage positionals (that are easier to perform) would be a bit dull.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 10:08 AM by labra

I was reffering to the reduction of style chains.

I don't want to bring the style change debate here but I agree with you on the necessity to not ending on all mirror classes/styles.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 10:35 AM by Blitze

Yea, it seems that for reduction of style chains some nerf would need to accompany their newer ease of use.

For example, Changing:
Friars friend(snare) —> banish (no effect) —> Stunning staff(8s stun)
To
Friars friend(snare) —> Stunning staff(8s stun)

It may seem too strong at first glance, but let’s compare...
Similar styles:
Hammer - Lvl 34 2nd chain after parry; 7s stun.
Crush - Lvl 15 2nd anytime; 6s stun.
Large Weap - lvl 50 backstyle; 8s stun.
Scythe - lvl 39 backstyle; 8s stun.
Pierce - lvl 15 after evade/block; 6s stun.
Blunt - lvl 50 2nd after parry; 10s stun.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 10:44 AM by labra

unless you keep :
Friars friend(snare) —> banish (no effect)
and add Stunning staff as a side opener.

It would be an incentive to spec high in staff and create more diversity in specs

Mon 22 Jun 2020 11:19 AM by Blitze

Yep, based on the comparisons... it seems that it should just be a stand alone stun, especially being at 44. (Then maybe have excommunicate chain off it).

However, friars have a better anytime than every line I mentioned (Except Hammer). And losing that would be bad. Changes to 39/44 and 50 style only effect melee friars not hybrids or healers. And if this review buffs high styles at the cost of lower ones, then that’s hard for most friars.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 12:00 PM by Bradekes

Blitze wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:57 AM
Importantly, I think it would be terrible If homogenisation of all class style lines was to occur and anytimes, positionals & reactionaries we’re moderated to be similar GRs, end, to-hit, respectively....cos I think a lot of what I like about this patch level would be lost. For example, I don’t want my Friars to have high GR positionals at the cost of the snares or a good anytime.

The big reason they are doing this is because they have custom code in place that pretty much 100% prevent 3 or 4 style chains from hitting most melee classes that aren't stunned, and good luck pulling off a 4 style evade chain on a stunned target.

They are limiting styles to 2 part chain. So in order to turn some of those chained styles into new positional or reactionary styles they need to equalize all existing styles so they don't appear to show favoritism to any realm or class.

I'm sure they will still add some slight differences to keep things similar to how they are now.

Mon 22 Jun 2020 1:06 PM by gotwqqd

Blitze wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Jun 2020 10:35 AM
Yea, it seems that for reduction of style chains some nerf would need to accompany their newer ease of use.

For example, Changing:
Friars friend(snare) —> banish (no effect) —> Stunning staff(8s stun)
To
Friars friend(snare) —> Stunning staff(8s stun)

It may seem too strong at first glance, but let’s compare...
Similar styles:
Hammer - Lvl 34 2nd chain after parry; 7s stun.
Crush - Lvl 15 2nd anytime; 6s stun.
Large Weap - lvl 50 backstyle; 8s stun.
Scythe - lvl 39 backstyle; 8s stun.
Pierce - lvl 15 after evade/block; 6s stun.
Blunt - lvl 50 2nd after parry; 10s stun.

The style change will remove any 3 or 4 length chains
2 or single is all that will be left
Not sure if I like that

Fri 26 Jun 2020 2:38 AM by Nephamael

Lvl 50 - Excommunicate - Only weird options Left here... with side/back positionals and, evade/party reactions taken. Therefore, we are left with:

i suggest a high growthrate backstyle followup with a 25 sec snare (friar staff hits much much faster than arms pole, so more than 25s (that is very very long) would be imbalanced)
or a high growthrate 9 sec stun