Why is every class being touched? But a champ still remains untouched and still very very OP solo. They get double debuff value here they also get ST to reset stun timers. With very very bursty dps like a warrior. Champ really needs to be reworked for the debuffs. On top of that very tanky
Champs need reworked
Started 18 Jun 2020
by
Stynkfyst28
in
Suggestions
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:46 AM
by
Razur Ur
Stynkfyst28 wrote: ↑Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:07 PMWhy is every class being touched? But a champ still remains untouched and still very very OP solo. They get double debuff value here they also get ST to reset stun timers. With very very bursty dps like a warrior. Champ really needs to be reworked for the debuffs. On top of that very tanky
i like you with your pala but what you telling is totall nonesense in this case!!!!
what's the point if the champion solo is only strong in 1vs1 but not suitable for group play? Without endureduce chant and rr5 for burst dmg in assisttrain. Champion is nothing half and nothing whole in a group compared to Valewalker (more dps) and BM (best peeler in hib) and a champion never comes close to the style dmg of the Warrior! And just by the way, purge the debuffs and the champion shits completely! and from 2vs1 on, every pala is better off than a champion because of better
defense.
therefore a champion without debuffs is worth nothing and a well played skald wins against a champion of equal rank! but strangely enough there is no whining.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:56 AM
by
Centenario
A big issue with champ imo is the instant snare with huge duration.
I think the debuffs should also apply to the champion for 50% of the value, so there is a trade-off to using them, and also not so much a difference between champ and opponent in 1v1.
In exchange they should get something else for example: Evade 3 and 360 evade
I think the debuffs should also apply to the champion for 50% of the value, so there is a trade-off to using them, and also not so much a difference between champ and opponent in 1v1.
In exchange they should get something else for example: Evade 3 and 360 evade
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:02 AM
by
Razur Ur
And by the way, the only things that are strong at champion are str/con debuff and dex/quick debuff! every realm has styles with 20% haste debuff, which negates the red haste debuff from champion but of course nobody thinks about that! and the snare is not rly well on that server, because this snare give root immunity! on live server
i can after reuse timer again and again same target snare but not on phönix server! next disadvantage for lfg champion!
And now please tell me what good is a class like the champion if you don't need him in a group and only have his right to exist in 1vs1!
i can after reuse timer again and again same target snare but not on phönix server! next disadvantage for lfg champion!
And now please tell me what good is a class like the champion if you don't need him in a group and only have his right to exist in 1vs1!
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:49 AM
by
Loki
So you think decreasing damage, weapon skill, constitution, dexterity (parry/evade) and quickness (swing speed/evade) is negated by a 20 haste debuff ?
Anyways, devs custom changed the champ debuff values to 1.7 and scaling with the buffs on the target as an intended hib buff in beta. Obviously this needs another look since a lot of things have changed, charges removed, recent MoA not affecting items, nerf of other classes' con debuff not stacking , all while champs were debuffing for more of those numbers that were considered inappropriate. I get debuffed for 114/111/95 str-con/dex/qui , in a classic environment thats huge. I have mentioned this several times but devs just ignore it as per usual. I personally don't think you want to increase debuffs as a way to improve a class, it's an anti-fun mechanic that cannot be defended against or played around it.
Now watch Razur have a melt down, because he's been crying for more toys for months now, while hijacking threads about other classes with references to champs.
Anyways, devs custom changed the champ debuff values to 1.7 and scaling with the buffs on the target as an intended hib buff in beta. Obviously this needs another look since a lot of things have changed, charges removed, recent MoA not affecting items, nerf of other classes' con debuff not stacking , all while champs were debuffing for more of those numbers that were considered inappropriate. I get debuffed for 114/111/95 str-con/dex/qui , in a classic environment thats huge. I have mentioned this several times but devs just ignore it as per usual. I personally don't think you want to increase debuffs as a way to improve a class, it's an anti-fun mechanic that cannot be defended against or played around it.
Now watch Razur have a melt down, because he's been crying for more toys for months now, while hijacking threads about other classes with references to champs.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:57 AM
by
Razur Ur
Loki wrote: ↑Fri 19 Jun 2020 9:49 AMSo you think decreasing damage, weapon skill, constitution, dexterity (parry/evade) and quickness (swing speed/evade) is negated by a 20 haste debuff ?
Anyways, devs custom changed the champ debuff values to 1.7 and scaling with the buffs on the target as an intended hib buff in beta. Obviously this needs another look since a lot of things have changed, charges removed, recent MoA not affecting items, nerf of other classes' con debuff not stacking , all while champs were debuffing for more of those numbers that were considered inappropriate. I get debuffed for 114/111/95 str-con/dex/qui , in a classic environment thats huge. I have mentioned this several times but devs just ignore it as per usual. I personally don't think you want to increase debuffs as a way to improve a class, it's an anti-fun mechanic that cannot be defended against or played around it.
Now watch Razur have a melt down, because he's been crying for more toys for months now, while hijacking threads about other classes with references to champs.
do you even read what I've written? You can reduce the debuff values if you want but then bite higher melee base dmg or rr5 ability as well as acuity and endureducechant for more groups!
And again for you the debuffs can be purged! and then you only have the disadvantage that you lost 500 hitpoints! Champion has low melee dmg + weaponsskill because he is hybrid and tell me what is the champion without his debuffs? would you want to play a champion without debuffs? And by the way the skald is as strong in 1vs1 as the champion!
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:07 AM
by
Blitze
I have seen plenty of duels over the last few weeks and one of my conclusions is that:
Champs are absolute beasts 1v1 (so much so that they are often ignored as no one will duel them).
As a (solo specced) RR7 Friar, i cannot beat a decently played RR2 Champ.
I have not seen a Skald beat one in a 1v1 yet.
I have not seen many other than high RR SBs/Infs beat a champ and i regularly see stealthers lose miserably to them.
I think casters like BD and Necro have a chance , however, i would not use Necro/BD (or even Skald as they are super poplular for a reason
here) as a measuring stick for balance.
Champs are absolute beasts 1v1 (so much so that they are often ignored as no one will duel them).
As a (solo specced) RR7 Friar, i cannot beat a decently played RR2 Champ.
I have not seen a Skald beat one in a 1v1 yet.
I have not seen many other than high RR SBs/Infs beat a champ and i regularly see stealthers lose miserably to them.
I think casters like BD and Necro have a chance , however, i would not use Necro/BD (or even Skald as they are super poplular for a reason
here) as a measuring stick for balance.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:23 AM
by
Kimahri
Razur Ur wrote: ↑Fri 19 Jun 2020 8:46 AMAnd just by the way, purge the debuffs and the champion shits completely!
therefore a champion without debuffs is worth nothing
1. Ah, the good old purge debuff argument... purging debuffs vs a champ before being 9sec stunned is a death sentence, if your stunning people and double debuffing them at the same time, your playing your class wrong!
2. Champ without debuffs is nothing eh?
What about purge, ignore pain, numb, slam, static tempest (with stun reset), wrath of champions to blow up your opponent if the fight is close, mastery of block/parry with shield swapping, interrupts to prevent restealthing/casting... Any champion with decent RR that loses to another melee is simply playing their class wrong. A high RR champ that plays it right vs any other melee will always win. THE TRUTH HURTS
3. BTW champion debuff value was never changed despite the delve of combined forces being nerfed (which affected every soloing class)
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:36 AM
by
Ele
Although I've to agree with Loki that Razurs constant complains about champ being weak are annoying because it is definately not, they are certainly not op either.
Champ is certainly a pain in 1vs1, but that is exactly what he is supposed to be with all the tools he has, and the only place where he can really shine atm. Right now they only have a spot as the last of 4 possible melees in a hib tanker with 4 naturalists. In 5 naturalist settings champ tends to be overlooked mostly because he doesn't offer the same raw dps of vw, bm or hero, and you really need that with only 3 dps classes. In caster setups - of which you don't see many atm - hero and bm outclass a champ due to stoicism, better peels on bm and better actives on hero. If the warden change goes through, they may have a more consistent spot in groups, but even then I think champ is nowhere near op and certainly doesn't need a nerf.
Btw, we had a nice /gvg fight vs your pug yesterday, Razur, and it showed clearly that a champ is nowhere near useless in groups. You locked my pac down for quite some time, because I couldn't ourtun you even when you got peeled due to your snare shout to get to a decent range to cc you, couldn't MoC outright because you still had ST up, and only once you got slamed I got out of range. No bm or vw could have kept me busy for so long, and when you were training me together with one bm at the beginning of the fight we were under a lot of pressure.
In addition, champ can't spec for annihilation without sacrificing slam or red debuffs, so if you encounter a champ who's dealing serious melee dmg, he likely has low defense or only mediocre debuffs and no capped s/c selfbuff.
All in all looks balanced to me, although Razur's gonna disagree and will suggest to buff champ anyway.
Champ is certainly a pain in 1vs1, but that is exactly what he is supposed to be with all the tools he has, and the only place where he can really shine atm. Right now they only have a spot as the last of 4 possible melees in a hib tanker with 4 naturalists. In 5 naturalist settings champ tends to be overlooked mostly because he doesn't offer the same raw dps of vw, bm or hero, and you really need that with only 3 dps classes. In caster setups - of which you don't see many atm - hero and bm outclass a champ due to stoicism, better peels on bm and better actives on hero. If the warden change goes through, they may have a more consistent spot in groups, but even then I think champ is nowhere near op and certainly doesn't need a nerf.
Btw, we had a nice /gvg fight vs your pug yesterday, Razur, and it showed clearly that a champ is nowhere near useless in groups. You locked my pac down for quite some time, because I couldn't ourtun you even when you got peeled due to your snare shout to get to a decent range to cc you, couldn't MoC outright because you still had ST up, and only once you got slamed I got out of range. No bm or vw could have kept me busy for so long, and when you were training me together with one bm at the beginning of the fight we were under a lot of pressure.
In addition, champ can't spec for annihilation without sacrificing slam or red debuffs, so if you encounter a champ who's dealing serious melee dmg, he likely has low defense or only mediocre debuffs and no capped s/c selfbuff.
All in all looks balanced to me, although Razur's gonna disagree and will suggest to buff champ anyway.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:45 AM
by
inoeth
give razur his back snare/endu reduce and reduce debuff values or increase debuff recast to 1min or maybe a combination of it.
and yes i can confirm, if there are brawls, champs usually stand around because nobody wants to fight them.
and yes i can confirm, if there are brawls, champs usually stand around because nobody wants to fight them.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:55 AM
by
opossum12
I remember the first pvp event, where every group was champ + savage + 3 support. Just with the debuffs, the savage would insta kill everything lol
Ae debuffs, but reduce delve? Wow, champs are now group characters and not so op solom
Ae debuffs, but reduce delve? Wow, champs are now group characters and not so op solom
Fri 19 Jun 2020 11:20 AM
by
DarkDavion
Stynkfyst28 wrote: ↑Thu 18 Jun 2020 8:07 PMWhy is every class being touched? But a champ still remains untouched and still very very OP solo. They get double debuff value here they also get ST to reset stun timers. With very very bursty dps like a warrior. Champ really needs to be reworked for the debuffs. On top of that very tanky
As u said he is strong in solo, as Devs already explained balance is aroung 8v8 not solo, so your thought is completely pointless.
Just for let u know, BM and Heroes are much better than champs in group.
What about solo champ? he is strong only vs melee classes, a lot of classes destroy him like necro,bd, cabalist, basically every caster.. and obviusly the OP minstrel.
Why are they thinking about nerf the minstrel? just bcs is WAY TOO GOOD SOLO, SMALL MAN AND GROUP! (even stealther group LOL) no one will care about one class good only vs melees.
you are just QQ without reason
P.s. a minstrel dont need the pet to kite you into death, but they are focusing on charm nerf bcs the point is to fix GvG not solo opness of minstrel..
Happy QQ
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:28 PM
by
Razur Ur
Ele wrote: ↑Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:36 AMAlthough I've to agree with Loki that Razurs constant complains about champ being weak are annoying because it is definately not, they are certainly not op either.
Champ is certainly a pain in 1vs1, but that is exactly what he is supposed to be with all the tools he has, and the only place where he can really shine atm. Right now they only have a spot as the last of 4 possible melees in a hib tanker with 4 naturalists. In 5 naturalist settings champ tends to be overlooked mostly because he doesn't offer the same raw dps of vw, bm or hero, and you really need that with only 3 dps classes. In caster setups - of which you don't see many atm - hero and bm outclass a champ due to stoicism, better peels on bm and better actives on hero. If the warden change goes through, they may have a more consistent spot in groups, but even then I think champ is nowhere near op and certainly doesn't need a nerf.
Btw, we had a nice /gvg fight vs your pug yesterday, Razur, and it showed clearly that a champ is nowhere near useless in groups. You locked my pac down for quite some time, because I couldn't ourtun you even when you got peeled due to your snare shout to get to a decent range to cc you, couldn't MoC outright because you still had ST up, and only once you got slamed I got out of range. No bm or vw could have kept me busy for so long, and when you were training me together with one bm at the beginning of the fight we were under a lot of pressure.
In addition, champ can't spec for annihilation without sacrificing slam or red debuffs, so if you encounter a champ who's dealing serious melee dmg, he likely has low defense or only mediocre debuffs and no capped s/c selfbuff.
All in all looks balanced to me, although Razur's gonna disagree and will suggest to buff champ anyway.
thank you bro, that what you wrote is exactly what I meant all along. I don't want the champion to be more surgery but I want the champion to get more group acceptance by giving him an endureducechant for group and when you compare Phoenix Champion to Live Champion, the champion here on Phoenix is still harmless to those on Live where seriously an overdone machine is.
And if you nerft the debuffs just because he is strong in 1vs1, then no one will play him anymore and a well played scalde can theoretically always win against a champ with kiting and his two DD's! Skalde can use SOS to counter static, skald can use ip and first aid thanks to Mezz and can always keep champion at a distance thanks to insta snare as champion has it. Sometimes I even have problems against rr5 skalde becaus I unfortunately don't block and parry anything despite the OP debuffs ^^ and believe me I'm not that bad in 1vs1, but I have to admit that I walk around with det9 solo.
Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:44 PM
by
jhaerik
Can we please not turn this into another duel server?
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:09 AM
by
Kimahri
Razur Ur wrote: ↑Fri 19 Jun 2020 1:28 PMEle wrote: ↑Fri 19 Jun 2020 10:36 AMAlthough I've to agree with Loki that Razurs constant complains about champ being weak are annoying because it is definately not, they are certainly not op either.
Champ is certainly a pain in 1vs1, but that is exactly what he is supposed to be with all the tools he has, and the only place where he can really shine atm. Right now they only have a spot as the last of 4 possible melees in a hib tanker with 4 naturalists. In 5 naturalist settings champ tends to be overlooked mostly because he doesn't offer the same raw dps of vw, bm or hero, and you really need that with only 3 dps classes. In caster setups - of which you don't see many atm - hero and bm outclass a champ due to stoicism, better peels on bm and better actives on hero. If the warden change goes through, they may have a more consistent spot in groups, but even then I think champ is nowhere near op and certainly doesn't need a nerf.
Btw, we had a nice /gvg fight vs your pug yesterday, Razur, and it showed clearly that a champ is nowhere near useless in groups. You locked my pac down for quite some time, because I couldn't ourtun you even when you got peeled due to your snare shout to get to a decent range to cc you, couldn't MoC outright because you still had ST up, and only once you got slamed I got out of range. No bm or vw could have kept me busy for so long, and when you were training me together with one bm at the beginning of the fight we were under a lot of pressure.
In addition, champ can't spec for annihilation without sacrificing slam or red debuffs, so if you encounter a champ who's dealing serious melee dmg, he likely has low defense or only mediocre debuffs and no capped s/c selfbuff.
All in all looks balanced to me, although Razur's gonna disagree and will suggest to buff champ anyway.
thank you bro, that what you wrote is exactly what I meant all along. I don't want the champion to be more surgery but I want the champion to get more group acceptance by giving him an endureducechant for group and when you compare Phoenix Champion to Live Champion, the champion here on Phoenix is still harmless to those on Live where seriously an overdone machine is.
And if you nerft the debuffs just because he is strong in 1vs1, then no one will play him anymore and a well played scalde can theoretically always win against a champ with kiting and his two DD's! Skalde can use SOS to counter static, skald can use ip and first aid thanks to Mezz and can always keep champion at a distance thanks to insta snare as champion has it. Sometimes I even have problems against rr5 skalde becaus I unfortunately don't block and parry anything despite the OP debuffs ^^ and believe me I'm not that bad in 1vs1, but I have to admit that I walk around with det9 solo.
This doesnt help your argument, Your proving the point that champ is OP here by stating you do well solo while spending 32 points on determination, I wish I could afford to spend 32 realm skill points on veil recovery and still outperform melee classes. Would be a nice world...
Sat 20 Jun 2020 10:55 AM
by
Razur Ur
Kimahri wrote: ↑Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:09 AMThis doesnt help your argument, Your proving the point that champ is OP here by stating you do well solo while spending 32 points on determination, I wish I could afford to spend 32 realm skill points on veil recovery and still outperform melee classes. Would be a nice world...
Haha that was a good try bro :-) but please do not forget that my champion is High RR! Furthermore I wonder why there are only two RR11 champions, although this class is so OP, shouldn't there be much more RR10/11 champions?
Sat 20 Jun 2020 5:15 PM
by
Nephamael
Champ is op vs melees, but merc is same op, so is necro or sm or bd.
Champ has more tools vs casters than a merc or necro, but less than a bd.
Also Champ has no stoic for 8v8... i agree Champs are very strong in 1v1s, but there is so many other characters equally strong.
Some people use to team up vs BDs, SMs, Minsts or Necros, you can do the same vs a champ if you disrespect it as a 1v1 character. Or you simply dodge the fight.
Champ has more tools vs casters than a merc or necro, but less than a bd.
Also Champ has no stoic for 8v8... i agree Champs are very strong in 1v1s, but there is so many other characters equally strong.
Some people use to team up vs BDs, SMs, Minsts or Necros, you can do the same vs a champ if you disrespect it as a 1v1 character. Or you simply dodge the fight.
Sat 20 Jun 2020 5:20 PM
by
Nephamael
I'd rather ask the other solos to play toons that can win but can lose too. Now that we have more solo qol we can think about what is fun for everyone.
And if a Champ or Merc annoys you, just logg your Necro, SM or Eld and kill him
And if a Champ or Merc annoys you, just logg your Necro, SM or Eld and kill him
Sat 20 Jun 2020 5:31 PM
by
Kimahri
Mercs are easier to beat imo, just snare them when they DT, then reengage afterward, but before your slam immunity wears off.
Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:41 PM
by
Nephamael
Mercs are easier to beat imo, just snare them when they DT, then reengage afterward, but before your slam immunity wears off.
that might be possible for some classes, but the chance to get it off without getting snared or killed before is pretty slim for most melees ^^
don't get me wrong, a merc is free RPs for any caster, daocs 1v1 balance is weird like that, rock paper scissor
Sun 21 Jun 2020 10:55 PM
by
imweasel
Nephamael wrote: ↑Sat 20 Jun 2020 8:41 PMMercs are easier to beat imo, just snare them when they DT, then reengage afterward, but before your slam immunity wears off.
that might be possible for some classes, but the chance to get it off without getting snared or killed before is pretty slim for most melees ^^
don't get me wrong, a merc is free RPs for any caster, daocs 1v1 balance is weird like that, rock paper scissor
The major issue with rock paper scissors is when it's an even amount of each.
But when there are 10 rocks 3 paper and one scissor this type of balancing theory won't work out.
Mon 22 Jun 2020 7:18 AM
by
pollojack
There are like zero champs in the dueling areas. Everyone acknowledges they are strong and don't bother bringing them. Still, they don't get a lot of group love because they lack stoicism.
They need the d/q for 8v8 and RvR. I am sure any of them would trade the haste debuff for stoicism or stoic lite, similar to the savage.
They need the d/q for 8v8 and RvR. I am sure any of them would trade the haste debuff for stoicism or stoic lite, similar to the savage.
Mon 22 Jun 2020 7:55 AM
by
inoeth
pollojack wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jun 2020 7:18 AMThere are like zero champs in the dueling areas. Everyone acknowledges they are strong and don't bother bringing them. Still, they don't get a lot of group love because they lack stoicism.
They need the d/q for 8v8 and RvR. I am sure any of them would trade the haste debuff for stoicism or stoic lite, similar to the savage.
when i am in the solo zone, there are at least 2-3 champs
but
nobody wants to fight them because they are so ridicolously strong
Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:04 AM
by
DarkDavion
inoeth wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jun 2020 7:55 AMpollojack wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jun 2020 7:18 AMThere are like zero champs in the dueling areas. Everyone acknowledges they are strong and don't bother bringing them. Still, they don't get a lot of group love because they lack stoicism.
They need the d/q for 8v8 and RvR. I am sure any of them would trade the haste debuff for stoicism or stoic lite, similar to the savage.
when i am in the solo zone, there are at least 2-3 champs
but
nobody wants to fight them because they are so ridicolously strong
I have a Champ and in the solo zone I usually fight reavers/paladins and infis. I can say that without purge u will lose vs high RR infi this new patch make them rly strong. Like most melee classes (arms, merc, war, zerk etc) don't want to duel with me I don't want to duel with cabalist, SM, BD etc.. But I duel theurg, wizard, rune master etc.. It's OK refuse to duel vs classes that don't give you any chance
Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:07 AM
by
Ibs
DarkDavion wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jun 2020 9:04 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jun 2020 7:55 AMpollojack wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jun 2020 7:18 AMThere are like zero champs in the dueling areas. Everyone acknowledges they are strong and don't bother bringing them. Still, they don't get a lot of group love because they lack stoicism.
They need the d/q for 8v8 and RvR. I am sure any of them would trade the haste debuff for stoicism or stoic lite, similar to the savage.
when i am in the solo zone, there are at least 2-3 champs
but
nobody wants to fight them because they are so ridicolously strong
I have a Champ and in the solo zone I usually fight reavers/paladins and infis. I can say that without purge u will lose vs high RR infi. Like most melee classes (arms, merc, war, zerk etc) don't want to duel with me I don't want to duel with cabalist, SM, BD etc.. But I duel theurg, wizard, rune master etc.. It's OK refuse to duel vs classes that don't give you any chance
Exactly, it's not just "omg op classes that couldn't even solo without this place are farming it up and laughing all the way to the master trainer". If you don't want to fight, don't fight. How much better of a chance would I have against the minst, 2 infs and 3 scouts I normally have to fight anyway?
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