My experience with a Bone Dancer

I was pveing in a bg and saw a fight between a BD and a fellow mele realm mates character. I joined the fight to take down the BD. The BD had a caster healer. This caster could cast with great rapidity and with such powerful spells that the BD player was not only able to survive, but kill myself and my fellow realm mate. I would suggest a review of BD pet casting speed and strength of heal spells. Is the class performing as designed ?

Wed 5 Sep 2018 12:22 AM by grannydanger

Yes, it is. You need cc and burst damage to kill a good BD. Even with two people.

All of the realms have stupidly strong classes.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 2:35 AM by relvinian

Its rock paper scissors

BD is one of those

Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:20 AM by Druth

1) I think they cast to fast, and for to much. Anyway compared to how I remember them, but memory is tricky.

2) CC and you still have a class that will defeat another non-stun caster.

3) Assassins with disease eats them.

4) Their pets have an extremely high chance of finding stealthers, and not just talking about the "pets will keep finding you once owner has send them on you".

5) Midgard is underdog.

No. 3 and 5 means I suggest we look the other way and move on.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 11:44 AM by Sayuri

Shadanwolf wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Sep 2018 7:37 PM
I was pveing in a bg and saw a fight between a BD and a fellow mele realm mates character. I joined the fight to take down the BD. The BD had a caster healer. This caster could cast with great rapidity and with such powerful spells that the BD player was not only able to survive, but kill myself and my fellow realm mate. I would suggest a review of BD pet casting speed and strength of heal spells. Is the class performing as designed ?

and you dont think that in 2v1 you should kill healer pet ?

Wed 5 Sep 2018 1:25 PM by Isavyr

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 2:35 AM
Its rock paper scissors

BD is one of those

Just no. Rock paper scissors implies balance with strengths and weaknesses. Mythic never intended them to be balanced.

To address the OP: Is it silly? Yes, but how it was intended.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 1:40 PM by Kaziera

I remember a fight beween my warden and a bd in 200x.

I was like yea, strafe in sidestyle, yea nice gogogo i can do this. Uh wait. Why is he full hp again. Ok next sidechain. Oh. Dead

He was like lifetap, rofl-emote, lifetap, rofl-emote, win.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 1:49 PM by Arthur Dayne

Ways to kill a BD:
- AoE Mez, kill the BD.
- Bolt & nuke down the BD from a distance.
- Kill the BD with an archer from a distance.
- As suggested above, use an assassin with disease to kill the BD.

Ways to not kill a BD:
- Run in as a solo melee character with no CC.

Not every class is going to be easily killable one-on-one with every other class. You just happened to try and kill it with the worst classes to try and kill it with.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 1:51 PM by relvinian

Assassins cannot be beat solo by most classes. Speaking of assassins.

With the free MOS and endless chain poison, how do you beat one?

True sight? You can't purge the golf bag of poison.

You can't out dps them.

Solo toons, it is all about the assassin.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 2:31 PM by phixion

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 1:51 PM
Assassins cannot be beat solo by most classes. Speaking of assassins.

With the free MOS and endless chain poison, how do you beat one?

True sight? You can't purge the golf bag of poison.

You can't out dps them.

Solo toons, it is all about the assassin.

"Free" MoS is just a movement speed increase... And you actually have to spec the points to get it, you don't get it via composite stealth spec.

Endless poison... Yeah just how it's always been. But you can only have 1 lifebane running at a time, they don't stack. I can't say I've ever thought assassins were OP, they have their limitations on classes they just won't win against, they also spend a long time standing around waiting for an opportunity.

Last I checked, even diseased BD's can outlast Assassins end game, once PA/CD is done, your burst damage is gone.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 3:43 PM by relvinian

You must play an assassin.

That is how u know who chimes in on these threads.

Look for balance people hate you.

Want to buff ur own class-- love.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:46 PM by phixion

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 3:43 PM
You must play an assassin.

That is how u know who chimes in on these threads.

Look for balance people hate you.

Want to buff ur own class-- love.

You're turning in to a snowflake mate. I did not insult you or say I hated you.

This thread is about BD's and you decide to divert the conversation to "assassins are OP".

As someone who played a NS to RR11 and faced my fair share of BD's, I can tell you they are not a walk over for an assassin, in fact I usually avoided them... even disease was not enough to hinder their spam healing pets and insta lifetap.

And no, I do not play an assassin. Imagine that!

Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:16 PM by ecopli

yes bogdar pet DPS is to hight; need to nerfing pet with dammage value or speed cast time;
Bogdar it's a dps and CC Class;
And at this moment Bogdard is the first dps caster with pet assist.
and pet have DD Snare ...

Wed 5 Sep 2018 5:22 PM by Vkejai

Last I checked, even diseased BD's can outlast Assassins end game, once PA/CD is done, your burst damage is gone.

^^^^^^ And normally that is enough

Wed 5 Sep 2018 6:21 PM by Geek

If you crit with PA and hit your follow-ups, you can most likely drop a BD. However, when I played as a NS, I avoided BDs about 90-something percent of the time because of that frickin heal pet. As an inf, I usually avoid them unless I'm duoing with a scout. A single assassin cannot always drop a BD. It's not always going to happen.

Basically all classes are OP if Relvinian dies to them.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:11 PM by poisonclover

I used to love PA-Vanish the heal pets on bds lol

Fun times, sometimes they don't even realize wtf happen lol

Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:15 PM by relvinian

phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 4:46 PM
relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 3:43 PM
You must play an assassin.

That is how u know who chimes in on these threads.

Look for balance people hate you.

Want to buff ur own class-- love.

You're turning in to a snowflake mate. I did not insult you or say I hated you.

This thread is about BD's and you decide to divert the conversation to "assassins are OP".

As someone who played a NS to RR11 and faced my fair share of BD's, I can tell you they are not a walk over for an assassin, in fact I usually avoided them... even disease was not enough to hinder their spam healing pets and insta lifetap.

And no, I do not play an assassin. Imagine that!

And now I'm a snowflake. Another personal attack.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:32 PM by phixion

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 8:15 PM
And now I'm a snowflake. Another personal attack.

Time to take a break... wait til i50.

Thu 6 Sep 2018 7:30 AM by

Uthred

Would you please stay ontopic or I also have to close this thread. The thread is about BDs and not about flaming each other. Thank you.

Thu 6 Sep 2018 7:57 AM by Druth

Bonedancers are fine, they don't make Midgard OP, and you just have to stay away from them as a solo.
Their strength lies only in them being hard to bring down when 1v1.

Are they annoying? Yes! I hate them when soloing, but in groups they are not a problem.

I'm an Alb, please don't nerf Midgard, they need a buff, not a nerf.

Thu 6 Sep 2018 4:30 PM by poisonclover

Every class is killable by a specific class or 3.. some have more weakness solo then others. fact is.. it was never supposed to be a solo game for anyone except stealthers.

Sat 8 Sep 2018 7:51 PM by Falken

From the POV of a bonedancer we are not that OP, you just have to know how to defeat them (disease, double wiz bolt, hib stun + debuff + 2 nukes, mez pets, get in melee range to slam, stun them when kiting and their pets fall behind, be a stealther and 2 shot them). If you are a class without mez then you should probably avoid them, and even if you have mez and you don't get all the pets mezzed before one or all of them are on you then you are likely dead. As a dark (nuke spec) BD soloing isn't friendly due to no speed and everybody just runs with no real way to catch, but you can take advantage of poor players quite easily and 2v1 some with the right knowledge of class priorities in rupt/killing. I personally find sup (the instant lifetap spec) BD to be absurdly boring, but you are a 1v1 god due to high lifetaps and healer pets, same rules apply as above though if you don't mez/rupt their pet(s) you are toast either way, and against a sup bd even without pets they could potentially out heal your dmg due to instant lifetap or at least stick you and rupt you so that you can't cast, BD can die in a QC+Stun w/ nukes though easily enough.

All that being said BD still isn't operating at full capacity, caster pet resists are to high and they don't have styles from commander (weapon) or formations yet, but I am told that formations, spacing, and weapons will be added before launch. The spacing and formations will help drastically for requiring more than 1 mez to cc all the pets which may not be huge in zerging or 8v8, but in solo where you get only 1 QC this will be a major bane for fighting BDs, so it will just be more reason for all the solo speed classes with mez to just continue to run away (as they already do).

Sat 8 Sep 2018 8:04 PM by Isavyr

Falken wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Sep 2018 7:51 PM
From the POV of a bonedancer we are not that OP, you just have to know how to defeat them (disease, double wiz bolt, mez pets, get in melee range to slam, stun them when kiting and their pets fall behind, be a stealther and 2 shot them). If you are a class without mez then you should probably avoid them, and even if you have mez and you don't get all the pets mezzed before one or all of them are on you then you are likely dead. As a dark (nuke spec) BD soloing isn't friendly, but you can take advantage of poor players quite easily and 2v1 some with the right knowledge of class priorities in rupt/killing. I personally find sup BD to be absurdly boring, but you are a 1v1 god due to high lifetaps and healer pets, same rules apply as above though if you don't mez/rupt their pet(s) you are toast either way, and against a sup bd even without pets they could potentially out heal your dmg due to instant lifetap or at least stick you and rupt you so that you can't cast, BD can die in a QC+Stun w/ nukes though easily enough.

You're right. Just bring a group's worth of utility to kill one class. Totally unique counter to bonedancer. Feel like I've gone back in time to find such one-sided arguments.

If you can't be convinced by what's apparent to most people, it isn't worth discussion. Simply put, the game would be much better balanced without Si altogether, which changed the meta for the worse (for all realms, except maybe Alb)

Sat 8 Sep 2018 8:17 PM by Falken

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Sep 2018 8:04 PM
Falken wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Sep 2018 7:51 PM
From the POV of a bonedancer we are not that OP, you just have to know how to defeat them (disease, double wiz bolt, mez pets, get in melee range to slam, stun them when kiting and their pets fall behind, be a stealther and 2 shot them). If you are a class without mez then you should probably avoid them, and even if you have mez and you don't get all the pets mezzed before one or all of them are on you then you are likely dead. As a dark (nuke spec) BD soloing isn't friendly, but you can take advantage of poor players quite easily and 2v1 some with the right knowledge of class priorities in rupt/killing. I personally find sup BD to be absurdly boring, but you are a 1v1 god due to high lifetaps and healer pets, same rules apply as above though if you don't mez/rupt their pet(s) you are toast either way, and against a sup bd even without pets they could potentially out heal your dmg due to instant lifetap or at least stick you and rupt you so that you can't cast, BD can die in a QC+Stun w/ nukes though easily enough.

You're right. Just bring a group's worth of utility to kill one class. Totally unique counter to bonedancer. Feel like I've gone back in time to find such one-sided arguments.

If you can't be convinced by what's apparent to most people, it isn't worth discussion. Simply put, the game would be much better balanced without Si altogether, which changed the meta for the worse (for all realms, except maybe Alb)

All the ways I mentioned to kill them can be done by a single class... stealther disease, wiz double bolt from bolt range, sorc or minstrel can mez the pets and solo the BD with pet and nukes/DDs+stun, chanter can kite BD and create distance between BD+pets then QC stun BD+debuff+2 nukes with companion and BD is dead before his pets can catch up and rupt, any light tank w/ slam can kill BD in a slam (maybe not sup BD due to caster heals depends on pets). Sure some classes stand little/no chance, but each realm has solo classes with answers or who are just plain better at soloing. Enchanter and Minstrel + Sorc can handle BD pretty well, not every class is designed to solo and some are easier than others, welcome to daoc! Worst case scenario you could just kill the BD commander in 2 nukes/3 styles and then BD is fodder. If you want a true solo class then you would want to roll a speed class, BD isn't the answer unless you go full sleeper sup spec and pray you don't get 2 shot by stealthers, but you will get rolled by a good duo regardless of spec. If you think BD is bad then please take a look at the utility a sorc or minstrel bring to soloing...

Sat 8 Sep 2018 8:30 PM by Isavyr

Assassin isn't reliable counter. This is why many stealthers simply don't attack BD. On this server, because of inflated PA damage, it may be possible reliably (needs testing).
Wizard isn't a counter at all. Bolts against a temp'd BD will not kill. Plus it's unlikely he won't get a 2nd cast off before the BD closes from 1875 (max bolt range) to 1500, and the BD begins 4s CD lifetaps. And even if he does QC to finish second bolt, he'll still die. (truthfully, with hastener, he won't even get first bolt off)
Minstrel isn't a counter at all. Cannot mezz all pets without being interrupted by either the pets or the BD. The stun isn't making the difference, either.
Chanter isn't a counter at all. Chanter pet needs to be able to cast to reliably kite. If BD rupts the pet (either his own rupts or using his pets), he can push the enchanter. It's really not as easy as you suggest.
Light tanks cannot kill BD during 1 stun, even with buffs--with exception of savage, but savages don't fight BDs, nor do they have slam.

These lists are a fantasy. Not sure why anyone has a hard time believing Mythic intentionally released broken classes that just incidentally laid behind a paywall. Look at warlock, vampiir, bainshee, savage, bonedancer, etc. Bonedancers aren't balanced in small-man, they aren't balanced in large-man. They're just less broken in large man because there's a lot more utility to mitigate them.

Sun 9 Sep 2018 10:40 PM by Falken

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Sep 2018 8:30 PM
Assassin isn't reliable counter. This is why many stealthers simply don't attack BD. On this server, because of inflated PA damage, it may be possible reliably (needs testing).
Wizard isn't a counter at all. Bolts against a temp'd BD will not kill. Plus it's unlikely he won't get a 2nd cast off before the BD closes from 1875 (max bolt range) to 1500, and the BD begins 4s CD lifetaps. And even if he does QC to finish second bolt, he'll still die. (truthfully, with hastener, he won't even get first bolt off)
Minstrel isn't a counter at all. Cannot mezz all pets without being interrupted by either the pets or the BD. The stun isn't making the difference, either.
Chanter isn't a counter at all. Chanter pet needs to be able to cast to reliably kite. If BD rupts the pet (either his own rupts or using his pets), he can push the enchanter. It's really not as easy as you suggest.
Light tanks cannot kill BD during 1 stun, even with buffs--with exception of savage, but savages don't fight BDs, nor do they have slam.

These lists are a fantasy. Not sure why anyone has a hard time believing Mythic intentionally released broken classes that just incidentally laid behind a paywall. Look at warlock, vampiir, bainshee, savage, bonedancer, etc. Bonedancers aren't balanced in small-man, they aren't balanced in large-man. They're just less broken in large man because there's a lot more utility to mitigate them.

Haven't meet an assassin that PA'd me and I lived, assuming it landed properly they typically do 60-80% of my life. They don't even need the disease because I don't live long enough to get a 2nd lifetap off. BDs don't have a lot of the nifty RAs that they did on live to turn themselves into legitimate tanks (specifically Physical Defense), we are still a cloth caster. As I said from the start I don't play boring suppression BD, my lifetaps are nice for rupting but will not keep me alive against a mdps or any kind of real damage. Sure, if I wanted to just be an unkillable beast and troll people I could go suppression, but its a 1 button toon that just isn't fun.

I can only speak from my EXPERIENCES, not simply paper daoc and theories. All the scenarios that I mentioned actually happened to me, and you can be sure experienced players know how to beat a BD, they aren't the undefeatable monsters that everybody proclaims or everybody would be playing one. You must not have played a BD on this server or clearly have no idea just how squishy they are. Getting hit for 200-300 from a tank is pretty standard practice, in 8v8 they will 3 shot me if I get caught. Tanks must be OP then I guess.

Sun 9 Sep 2018 11:28 PM by Isavyr

Not everyone enjoys playing the class, regardless of how good it is. A good suppression BD will actually counter all of the above situations, which were being referenced in solo situations. You can join a group and still be overpowered but it won't be with the suppression spec.

Lastly, I think you're right about assassins--melee damage appears too hard in general. Casters have been getting hit by 550-600 by two-handed attacks, 400-450 damage dual-wield 2.0s attacks, over 1000 quad hits, and PAs non critting for 700, which means a crit will be over 1k easily. However, some type of AF fix went in a few days ago so hopefully that helps.

Mon 10 Sep 2018 4:39 AM by Cirath

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 1:51 PM
Assassins cannot be beat solo by most classes. Speaking of assassins.

With the free MOS and endless chain poison, how do you beat one?

True sight? You can't purge the golf bag of poison.

You can't out dps them.

Solo toons, it is all about the assassin.

/eyeroll

More vintage Relvinian running his mouth about things he doesn't understand.

Mon 10 Sep 2018 10:01 AM by relvinian

Explain it to me.

How do you beat that 9 second evade inf with the golf bag of poison? And anytime snare/disease, what have u?

Mon 10 Sep 2018 10:05 AM by Druth

Do BD's have 9 sec stun and evade?

First of all you get back on topic, and then make a new thread.

Mon 10 Sep 2018 2:00 PM by heardstheword

Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Sep 2018 7:57 AM
Are they annoying? Yes! I hate them when soloing, but in groups they are not a problem.

This is the biggest point about BD's. They are very strong in 1v1 because their pets really make it a 4v1 fight.

Some classes are monsters 1v1 and level off in groups. Some classes are useless 1v1 and essential in groups. BD's have a strong solo game.

Mon 10 Sep 2018 2:06 PM by Cirath

If I land PA vs a bonedancer I will probably win. If I miss, he uncovers me, he adds me while fighting/finishing another, catches me running unstealthed etc I will die. Seems fair to me.

Even a golfbag full of poisons won't help my unbeatable 1v1 roxor class if I miss PA.