Give Hunters Reactionary Stuns

I believe Hunter should have a reactionary stun on par with every other stealther we fight against. Currently, we only have two stuns. In sword we have Njord's Fury, a 7-second stun which requires an evade followed by landing two styles afterwards. In spear, we have a 5 second back-positional stun. Both are strong, but the spear stun is situational and the sword stun is unreliable to land (especially given the lower WS of sword on a hunter).

Meanwhile, our stealther counterparts each have access to at least one better stun:

Infiltrator
Beartooth: 6 second stun in the Thrust skill line, after evade.
Dragonfang: 9 second stun in the Thrust skill line, after evade.
Befuddler: 5 second stun in the Slash line, after evade and 2 styles.
Hypnotic Darkness: 7 second stun in the Dual Wield skill line, after evade and 2 styles.

Scout
Slam: 9 second Anytime stun.
The previously mentioned Thrust/Slash stuns from Infiltrator.

Ranger/NS:
Horizon Blade: 4 second stun in the Blades line, after evade.
Diamondback: 5 second stun in the Pierce line, after evade.
Ice Storm: 4 second stun in the Celtic Dual line, side-positional.

As you can see, every other stealther has access to at least one single-style stun off of evade, (or in the case of Scouts, an anytime stun) except for Hunters. I think giving Hunter a similar reactionary stun would make our melee more competitive and bring a little more balance to the stealther world.

Wed 3 Jun 2020 3:35 PM by piero

I agree with everything wrote in this post

Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:33 PM by inoeth

i would rather take an any anytime asr chain, the lack of it makes it really difficult for hunters in melee fights.
stuns get purged anyway

Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:34 PM by Cadebrennus

I wish everyone would stop whining about everything. I'm in favour of removing the evade stun from Blades for Hib Stealthers and putting it back to the classic mode (off block, not off evade) and doing the same to all realms.

Too many damn people have whined about too damn much and it's screwing up the server.

Learn to play with what you got. Seriously.

Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:40 PM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:34 PM
I wish everyone would stop whining about everything. I'm in favour of removing the evade stun from Blades for Hib Stealthers and putting it back to the classic mode (off block, not off evade) and doing the same to all realms.

Too many damn people have whined about too damn much and it's screwing up the server.

Learn to play with what you got. Seriously.

you mean you are happy with all the nice tools you got as a ranger with several stun options and the best asr combo in the game + dq debuff weapon?
and you dont wnat your opponents to have that too? i can totally understand that....

meanwhile you still do not play here but keep on spamming the forum

Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:46 PM by tsujin

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:34 PM
I wish everyone would stop whining about everything. I'm in favour of removing the evade stun from Blades for Hib Stealthers and putting it back to the classic mode (off block, not off evade) and doing the same to all realms.

Too many damn people have whined about too damn much and it's screwing up the server.

Learn to play with what you got. Seriously.

Care to explain to me in what way my calm, informative, and well-thought out post came off as "whining"? Or did you just post here to whine about whining? There are style changes coming soon, this is the suggestions form, so I posted a suggestion. I do think it would be to the benefit of hunters and put us on a more level playing field against other stealthers. I'm actually guessing you didn't even bother to read it all though and you're just posting to post, so whatever.

Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:50 PM by tsujin

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:33 PM
i would rather take an any anytime asr chain, the lack of it makes it really difficult for hunters in melee fights.
stuns get purged anyway

That's not a bad idea either, but my fights have often dragged out long enough to outlast one (or even sometimes two) stun immunity timer. So even with purge, I think it wouldn't necessarily be a bad tool to have, as we can get stunned twice very easily but it's extremely hard for us to land two stuns in a single fight, particularly against assassins.

Wed 3 Jun 2020 7:39 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:40 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:34 PM
I wish everyone would stop whining about everything. I'm in favour of removing the evade stun from Blades for Hib Stealthers and putting it back to the classic mode (off block, not off evade) and doing the same to all realms.

Too many damn people have whined about too damn much and it's screwing up the server.

Learn to play with what you got. Seriously.

you mean you are happy with all the nice tools you got as a ranger with several stun options and the best asr combo in the game + dq debuff weapon?
and you dont wnat your opponents to have that too? i can totally understand that....

meanwhile you still do not play here but keep on spamming the forum

Try reading slower next time. As a matter of fact, just move your fingers under the words. You can even make the sounds as you read. At this point in your posting history we really can't even judge you for doing that.

Start with the first damn paragraph of my post. Don't worry. We will wait. We will be patient.

Wed 3 Jun 2020 7:40 PM by Cadebrennus

tsujin wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:46 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:34 PM
I wish everyone would stop whining about everything. I'm in favour of removing the evade stun from Blades for Hib Stealthers and putting it back to the classic mode (off block, not off evade) and doing the same to all realms.

Too many damn people have whined about too damn much and it's screwing up the server.

Learn to play with what you got. Seriously.

Care to explain to me in what way my calm, informative, and well-thought out post came off as "whining"? Or did you just post here to whine about whining? There are style changes coming soon, this is the suggestions form, so I posted a suggestion. I do think it would be to the benefit of hunters and put us on a more level playing field against other stealthers. I'm actually guessing you didn't even bother to read it all though and you're just posting to post, so whatever.

Sorry, it's not a dig on you specifically. It's just that nearly every day I see someone asking for something they just don't need. This trend has to stop.

Wed 3 Jun 2020 8:08 PM by Kurbsen

you should practice getting a run through backstun off and then go into a crit shot. (for the time being)

Thu 4 Jun 2020 5:16 AM by caelio

LOL

Thu 4 Jun 2020 6:58 AM by Centenario

You already get up to 50% more damage because of two-hand bonus.

Thu 4 Jun 2020 8:08 AM by piero

2h bonus? Rofl
All say hunter is good cause the pet ofc
Tell e a chain root front style as scout and remove my pet, for Me will be enough.
What kind of defence has hunter? Anything

Thu 4 Jun 2020 8:55 AM by Nunki

Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 8:08 PM
you should practice getting a run through backstun off and then go into a crit shot. (for the time being)

Works only against low-skill opponents.
Everybody else knows how to counter-strafe and avoid the backstyle stun.

Changing it to sidestyle stun might be an option.

Thu 4 Jun 2020 11:06 AM by Cadebrennus

It's easy enough to use Shield when not swinging your weapon, then swap to your 2h slot for styles. This is why I preferred Sword, without even having to use /switch.

Thu 4 Jun 2020 10:39 PM by Kurbsen

Nunki wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jun 2020 8:55 AM
Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 8:08 PM
you should practice getting a run through backstun off and then go into a crit shot. (for the time being)

Works only against low-skill opponents.
Everybody else knows how to counter-strafe and avoid the backstyle stun.

Changing it to sidestyle stun might be an option.

people still purge numb.. youll be able to get this off 95% of the time lol

Thu 4 Jun 2020 10:54 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:34 PM
Too many damn people have whined about too damn much and it's screwing up the server.

I like you Cad, always have, but you're coming off as a hypocrite here. You've got a multi-page topic about nerfing already nerfed Minstrels.

Thu 4 Jun 2020 11:59 PM by Nephamael

I wouldn't mind giving Hunters an after evade stun in the spear line (so they don't have to strave in backstuns), the 2 style 7 second stun in sword is pretty awesome if you land it and it doesn't get purged.

In general i feel like Hunter is in a good shape, his superfast pet is the strongest of all pets out there (besides charmed oj+ ones). He does okish bow dmg and very good melee dmg.

Actually the previously mentioned Scout is the class that has serious problems in a 1v1 situation cause his dps is 2 low to kill anything, while his defense and kite ability are brokenly strong. So he ends up neither killing anything, nor getting killed ...

Fri 5 Jun 2020 4:29 AM by Cadebrennus

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jun 2020 10:54 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 6:34 PM
Too many damn people have whined about too damn much and it's screwing up the server.

I like you Cad, always have, but you're coming off as a hypocrite here. You've got a multi-page topic about nerfing already nerfed Minstrels.

I understand what you're saying, but after seeing multiple whine threads about Minstrels I was trying to offer.a reasonable solution to the pet anti-CC exploit. And I play Alb too.

Fri 5 Jun 2020 7:05 PM by tsujin

Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 8:08 PM
you should practice getting a run through backstun off and then go into a crit shot. (for the time being)

This is not a reliable method for landing the stun, it really only works if you're lucky enough to get a good position on someone at the start of the fight. I think changing the backstun to an evade stun would make it more competitive. It'll give us something on par with 'sin and other archers, as well as allow us to trigger our highest damage style if it's in the spear line (Odin's Wrath) off of evade.

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jun 2020 6:58 AM
You already get up to 50% more damage because of two-hand bonus.

Even at 50 spec, the bonus is not 50%. Unless the formula has been changed here, the default daoc formula is (1.1 + (0.005 * Spec) ) so a hunter with 50 spear would be 1.35 or a 35% increase. At 44 it's a 32% bonus, and at 39 it's a 29.5% bonus. This is effectively countered by the fact that we don't have an offhand to swing with, and swing slower thus are punished much harder for evades and misses. Our damage is fine and I have no problems with it though. It's a utility argument that I'm making.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jun 2020 11:06 AM
It's easy enough to use Shield when not swinging your weapon, then swap to your 2h slot for styles. This is why I preferred Sword, without even having to use /switch.

This only affects sword spec, which already at least has a stun (albeit behind a 2-style chain off evade). The problem with sword is that being 100% str-based with dex as our primary skill, it is even lower WS on an already WS-starved class. If the stun were a single style, I'd probably consider going sword but ever since switching to spear I have outperformed my sword spec by a large margin.

Fri 5 Jun 2020 7:46 PM by inoeth

hunter does not need evade stuns, hunter needs attack speed reduce styles which do not trigger off evade chains or positionals!
thats the only thing hunter lacks of
oh and maybe some dq debuff weapons

Fri 5 Jun 2020 11:35 PM by Cadebrennus

tsujin wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jun 2020 7:05 PM
Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Wed 3 Jun 2020 8:08 PM
you should practice getting a run through backstun off and then go into a crit shot. (for the time being)

This is not a reliable method for landing the stun, it really only works if you're lucky enough to get a good position on someone at the start of the fight. I think changing the backstun to an evade stun would make it more competitive. It'll give us something on par with 'sin and other archers, as well as allow us to trigger our highest damage style if it's in the spear line (Odin's Wrath) off of evade.

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jun 2020 6:58 AM
You already get up to 50% more damage because of two-hand bonus.

Even at 50 spec, the bonus is not 50%. Unless the formula has been changed here, the default daoc formula is (1.1 + (0.005 * Spec) ) so a hunter with 50 spear would be 1.35 or a 35% increase. At 44 it's a 32% bonus, and at 39 it's a 29.5% bonus. This is effectively countered by the fact that we don't have an offhand to swing with, and swing slower thus are punished much harder for evades and misses. Our damage is fine and I have no problems with it though. It's a utility argument that I'm making.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jun 2020 11:06 AM
It's easy enough to use Shield when not swinging your weapon, then swap to your 2h slot for styles. This is why I preferred Sword, without even having to use /switch.

This only affects sword spec, which already at least has a stun (albeit behind a 2-style chain off evade). The problem with sword is that being 100% str-based with dex as our primary skill, it is even lower WS on an already WS-starved class. If the stun were a single style, I'd probably consider going sword but ever since switching to spear I have outperformed my sword spec by a large margin.

So you're saying that:

a) Hunters run into the same issue as Hibs/Albs when running strength based weapons, but you forgot to mention the +10 strength advantage that Hunters have over Rangers

b) the rear stun is just as unreliable as the side stun in CD, yet I've seen other posters say that "it's so easy to pull off that it's almost like an anytime stun".

c) that Hunters CHOOSE not to have a reactionary stun, but it's someone else's fault. Granted, it's a second style in a chain, but I've rarely had an issue with that regarding any class I've played.

Basically, it comes down to choice. We choose what to use or not to use. I played a Sword Hunter in beta and loved it. The only reason I didn't continue as a Mid this time around is because Mid very quickly filled up during the first month of launch, and I hate playing on the overpopulated realm.

For the record, I'm against having an evade stun in Blades, since it didn't originally exist in classic DAOC.

Sat 6 Jun 2020 2:58 PM by pollojack

I do look forward to the melee rework. SB absolutely needs a 1 style off-evade stun, followup can be a bleed.

2H dmg bonus formula uses 1.2 for 20% bonus damage, not 1.5. I could be wrong as this server is different from live. Really need a stickied thread full of mechanics and formulas. The other "50%" likely comes from 2H always being slower than 1H.

That being said, the hunter has enough tools to break through most defenses with its pet. I try to strafe, hitting from the side to bypass most defenses but to pretend others cant strafe or counter strafe is silly. Which is why SB needs an off evade stun.

The only class I have issues with 1v1 on my hunter are pallys. Can't break through all their defenses, their ABS, ablative procs, and heal chant. Yes, champs are an obvious issue too but they are rarely solo in frontiers because they are actually wanted in groups.

Yes, most of us play this game for the skills it requires but it isn't designed with killing everything you see in mind. We can end necros every time unlike our melee counterparts. Similarly we can take down enchanters where a SB or Inf has little hope. You can't kill everything but hunters can kill most and choose who they fight.

Thu 11 Jun 2020 8:59 AM by Centenario

You have to write this is the style change discussion.
I would give after evade stun to sword line personally, the 25 sword style Ice Storm:
Use 1-hand sword and board
Get evade
Use icestorm for 5sec stun
Switch to 2h sword use 44 style sif revenge