Volley, Rapid Fire, "Flank Shot" Stealth and Critshot.

I've already posted this in the planned Archery changes but to be sure it did not drown in the pages I'm posting it here aswell.

So we had the damage buffed a bit and nerfed a little again... So instead of looking at the damage, we could have a look at utilities and mechanics...

1. Volley: Bring back the old Volley where you could move ground-target around after each shot. IMO it made it much more interesting. Where you actually had to aim at the ground and predict where people were moving.

2. Rapid Fire: In addition to the current effect add 1.5-2.0 sec snare effect to it... This will give Archers a tool to slow down their enemies so they can't run away that easy and keep the damage low since they have to fire at cap or almost cap speed in order to keep up the effect on their target.

3. "Flank Shot": An alternative to the Rapid Fire change could making a new shot that would only be useable from behind/side target and give a snare effect when they try to run off.

4. Stealth: Some hate it and some love it. Perhaps a mechanic that makes it more interesting to not be in stealth could make folks happier(wishful thinking). A percentage increase in damage increase for each minute not being in stealth. This would ofc. have to be monitored very closely and carefully perhaps a nerf of the regular damage to regulate and justify the buff from this. But what I had in mind was something like being out of stealth for 10-15 min would give you 10-15% damage increase. If you then choose to stealth you will lose the damage buff and have to start over... This will make Archers have to choose between damage or taking cover. I hope this could make Archer a more likable character to invite to a group. At big fights making the Archer not re-stealth all the time only to see them pop out a sec after and run again.

5. Critical Shot: I see people complain about this "ZOMG ONE HIT THIS MUCH DMG - OP SH*T" etc. Though I don't really agree. But to justify one or more of the above changes. Perhaps make it only useable from stealth... nerf the damage bonus or simply remove it.

Oh and please give Scouts an ability to give themselves 75 Dex/Qui... The realm skill points the have to spend to catch up to the other Archers accumulate more than two realm ranks.

I hope some of this could be an inspiration for some more interesting suggested changes for Archers. Thanks for reading <3

Thu 21 May 2020 4:57 PM by Ashenspire

Just a big ole yikes to all of this.

Archers were fine. They didn't need the buffs they got, people just felt they should be able to kill any target all the time every time.

These changes are in the same vein as that thought process, which is just ridiculous.

Thu 21 May 2020 10:46 PM by idget575

Archer buff then nerf 2x. I say leave everything as it is. Currently at 65 composite bow and aug dex 8 i hit the dummies for 690 on crit and 345 regular shot. That by no means is overpowered considering debuff stun nuke or earth wiz 50% debuff then get hit with their spec bolt. To hit that hard on a scout I literally hit for 20 weapon dmg per swing melee as the Spec line is 50 bow, 45 shield, 9 thrust and 37 stealth. Yes the thrust will be slightly raised after rr5 but I prefer 52 composite stealth for DF mobs and keep guards, might not make a difference but it sure seems like it to me.

Fri 22 May 2020 7:17 AM by SaintRon

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 21 May 2020 4:57 PM
Just a big ole yikes to all of this.

Archers were fine. They didn't need the buffs they got, people just felt they should be able to kill any target all the time every time.

These changes are in the same vein as that thought process, which is just ridiculous.

So before these changes:

People would tell you in all 3 realms that playing an archer was a waste of time & not viable.

That you don't bother going high bow because its not viable.

Only viable ranger/hunter was melee. (if you were lucky, most people would just refer to a hunter as trash)

Yet they were also 'fine'?

Fri 22 May 2020 8:34 AM by kvaernen

From day one archers was a headache for Mythic. Archers were hiding in trees from where they could shoot and kill enemies without them ever knowing the direction.
A long the way Mythic added arrows that indicated from where you got shot, and /face and all kind of patches.

The main problem remain, they are not very group friendly (doesn't bring much to a group), and are either to week or overpowered. The last being a very thin line, be course lining up a crit shot from stealth is not that hard. If your arrows cant do the job, archers are now week melee (unless like some rangers).

I dont know if it is outside the scope of a free shard to mend the archers problem, and to what extend pheonix can makes changes (how much are client side and what can be done server side).

The 45 shield for scouts was a decent attempt of bringing a group friendly ability. However using shield for a ranged class is a last resort, and do feel a little counter intuitive having to sprint after people trying to snare them (think of a 8 man group setup).

Here is my take on what could be done;

Add some utility shot, being utility they should do less than normal bow damage (30 seconds after leaving stealth).

1) silence shot, 5-6 second where target cant cast spell/shout, followed by an emunity timer of 15-30 seconds.
2) snare shot, 4-5 seconds, which can be reapplied. This will be an alternative to a peel bot (with much longer snare timer). Maube it should do less damage, (so you trade range for damage).
3) Bleed shot, makes all existing bleeding tick for 50-200.
4) 10-20% Resist debuf shot, with a short timer.

If we have to go the added bow damage way, maybe crit shot shouldn't do 100% extra damage, but be reduced to 50% if shot from stealth.

Fri 22 May 2020 9:11 PM by Basilisk

Archers don’t need any of these. Started soloing on my scout at rr1 and was #1 on solo kills within two days for scouts that week. People just need to play better and use what tools they have. None of this is needed whatsoever ever for a change. Numb baiting and a root style is already broken af but people are just bad and need more handicaps.

Sat 23 May 2020 6:59 AM by Tanakeo

all people see are the big numbers, but not looking at the DPS. it takes around 4 seconds to get ur shots out, u can compare that to any caster, and ur dps is still in the toilet considering the investments u put in...

Mon 25 May 2020 9:39 AM by Sepplord

Tanakeo wrote: ↑
Sat 23 May 2020 6:59 AM
all people see are the big numbers

that's because the archers are in stealth and can't be seen before the big numbers happen...which is something often forgotten by people claiming the DPS is low. The DPS of a single archer shooting you is lower than the dps a caster can put out in the same time.
How much DPS is a caster doing that you interrupt when you see him? (Hint...it's zero)
How much DPS is an archer doing that you interrupt when you see him? Definitely more than zero, since the arrow is already flying befor you have a chance to see them.

Comparing casters to archers is a tedious task and i haven't seen a single comment going for that comparison to even try taking all different circumstances into consideration.

Mon 25 May 2020 10:59 AM by canzian

Give me no immunity root on my ranger and u can have d/q buff.. and all are happy

Mon 25 May 2020 2:30 PM by jwalker

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 25 May 2020 9:39 AM
Tanakeo wrote: ↑
Sat 23 May 2020 6:59 AM
all people see are the big numbers

that's because the archers are in stealth and can't be seen before the big numbers happen...which is something often forgotten by people claiming the DPS is low. The DPS of a single archer shooting you is lower than the dps a caster can put out in the same time.
How much DPS is a caster doing that you interrupt when you see him? (Hint...it's zero)
How much DPS is an archer doing that you interrupt when you see him? Definitely more than zero, since the arrow is already flying befor you have a chance to see them.

Comparing casters to archers is a tedious task and i haven't seen a single comment going for that comparison to even try taking all different circumstances into consideration.

You do realize what DPS is? The point here is that over a longer period archer still do pretty lousy DPS but they have a pretty high frontload damage. Especially vs. Casters but also vs. Leather classes this frontload can be pretty impressive, not so much vs. studded and chain.

However, once you talk about DPS then it really depends on the time frame to look at

3 seconds
archer (moa5 needed + 250 quickness), preloaded crit shot (otherwise he needs 6,5 seconds to do the same): 700 damage crit + 350 damage regular shot (that's what you can expect vs. studded with bonus arrows) = 1050 damage in 3 seconds
Now a caster could get about 3x casts out in this time, at least debuff + 2 nukes probably hitting around 900-1100 damage

So in this short timeframe they have comparable DPS, but only if the crit shot was already preloaded. What happens if the target isn't dead and we look at ...

6 seconds
Archer: 700 + 2x 350 (regular shot takes 3 seconds each) = 1400 damage
Casters can easily cast debuff + 5 nukes or 5-6 regular nukes = A LOT MORE!

And I don't really want to talk about your interrupt DPS comment, you disregard quickcast, cc, bubble, moc, ichor, life tap reprocs and so on.

Mon 25 May 2020 3:40 PM by Sepplord

jwalker wrote: ↑
Mon 25 May 2020 2:30 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 25 May 2020 9:39 AM
Tanakeo wrote: ↑
Sat 23 May 2020 6:59 AM
all people see are the big numbers

that's because the archers are in stealth and can't be seen before the big numbers happen...which is something often forgotten by people claiming the DPS is low. The DPS of a single archer shooting you is lower than the dps a caster can put out in the same time.
How much DPS is a caster doing that you interrupt when you see him? (Hint...it's zero)
How much DPS is an archer doing that you interrupt when you see him? Definitely more than zero, since the arrow is already flying befor you have a chance to see them.

Comparing casters to archers is a tedious task and i haven't seen a single comment going for that comparison to even try taking all different circumstances into consideration.

You do realize what DPS is? The point here is that over a longer period archer still do pretty lousy DPS but they have a pretty high frontload damage. Especially vs. Casters but also vs. Leather classes this frontload can be pretty impressive, not so much vs. studded and chain.

However, once you talk about DPS then it really depends on the time frame to look at

3 seconds
archer (moa5 needed + 250 quickness), preloaded crit shot (otherwise he needs 6,5 seconds to do the same): 700 damage crit + 350 damage regular shot (that's what you can expect vs. studded with bonus arrows) = 1050 damage in 3 seconds
Now a caster could get about 3x casts out in this time, at least debuff + 2 nukes probably hitting around 900-1100 damage

So in this short timeframe they have comparable DPS, but only if the crit shot was already preloaded. What happens if the target isn't dead and we look at ...

6 seconds
Archer: 700 + 2x 350 (regular shot takes 3 seconds each) = 1400 damage
Casters can easily cast debuff + 5 nukes or 5-6 regular nukes = A LOT MORE!

And I don't really want to talk about your interrupt DPS comment, you disregard quickcast, cc, bubble, moc, ichor, life tap reprocs and so on.

Thanks for elaborating on my point, it seems you completely agree with my point.
You just missed that my point literally was that comparing archers to casters isn't a one scenario comparison, but that there are tons of different scenarios. Your comment is one of the more detailed ones, but it is far from complete and i believe a complete comparison would include so many different informations that deducing a balance-decision from it would be nigh impossible.

You say a caster gets at least 3cast out in tha ttimeframe, to which i reply, against a good opponent, the caster will get nothing out at all (unless using RAs or QC) because the caster is visible while running into castrange.
We could go back and forth for 100pages adding new scenarios and situations favoring one or the other without running out of material, becasue the comparison in itself is just completely flawed from the beginning

Mon 25 May 2020 5:01 PM by Horus

So at 68 archery and 383 dex and with all the str relics I went out hunting as soon as the 1st archery adjustment went in.

I was in the solo pvp area and also protecting expers from gankers in the gorge. I was pleasantly surprised at the damage. I was actually able to kill solo minstrels, skalds, SBs, infilts before they either ran away or got to me and interrupted. Other archers were also plentiful and nice targets (i was one myself many times...comes with the territory)

I then tried my hand a keep defense and again was surprised at my ability to play a role in defense. I was able to kill solo casters quite easily if they didn't retreat after the 1st shot. You actually had to account for archers in your tactics. Standing in range spamming the walls with AoE non stop was now a dangerous proposition.

Then the 1st nerf went in...things were still OK but we had all the str relics.
Then the 2nd nerf went in and I noticed things were worse but at least a little better than before.
Then we lost the two additional str relics and it seems the dmg is now the same as it was before the initial boost. No longer can kill anyone unless they are really sleeping or adding onto a stealth fight. Extra frustrating because at 50 bow now I have practically no melee. Any low RR assassin or melee toon can take me out with ease. ..even scouts.
I think it may be time to shelve again or go back to a low bow melee spec and just add for RPS or be an interrupt bot.

I applaud dev for trying to fix a popular class across all realms. Just wish they would have stuck by the fix a little longer to see how things fell out over a little bit more time. A couple days is not enough to measure a change. Everyone wanted to try an archer so it was the flavor of the weekend. Many of those would have stopped even if no dmg adjustment down went in. Most of the people complaining were assassins and who think any time they die it isn't fair unless it is to another assassin and ganker who think they should be able to kill levelers with impunity.