State of archery and possible solutions

Archers are still hitting tanks for over 700 dmg crit shots and 300 dmg regular shots. (I have already submitted screenshots of this already to Maharet so you know this statement is true)

If this is ur desired result for damage. There is a couple of new issue with archers now since they hit like casters.

1) They should be wearing cloth armor. This is an unfair advantage since the damage output of archer is the same as a caster they should suffer the same downsides.
2) Either remove stealth from the class or dramatically lower how many spec points they get to in order to avoid high stealth and bow specs or give stealth to all classes.
3) The cost of archery shots now hitting like casters they should have the cost of endurance dramatically increased so they are comparable to how much mana casters use to cast spells.

The alternative to all this is to dramatically lower the damage of the bow since the advantage of stealth with massive damage and no real drawbacks is simply going to erode away the population for non-stealther classes. We are starting to see this already with the explosion of archers, especially in Hibernia. I have submitted screenshots of the rangers population on the server exceeding over 100. Hibernia generally has almost the same archer population of the other two realms combined. I suspect this is the case due to the fact they can spec red self buffs, run 5.5-speed bows, and the difficulty of spotting lurikeens because of their size.

Tue 19 May 2020 12:54 AM by gotwqqd

tibofeif wrote: ↑
Mon 18 May 2020 7:44 PM
Archers are still hitting tanks for over 700 dmg crit shots and 300 dmg regular shots. (I have already submitted screenshots of this already to Maharet so you know this statement is true)

If this is ur desired result for damage. There is a couple of new issue with archers now since they hit like casters.

1) They should be wearing cloth armor. This is an unfair advantage since the damage output of archer is the same as a caster they should suffer the same downsides.
2) Either remove stealth from the class or dramatically lower how many spec points they get to in order to avoid high stealth and bow specs or give stealth to all classes.
3) The cost of archery shots now hitting like casters they should have the cost of endurance dramatically increased so they are comparable to how much mana casters use to cast spells.

The alternative to all this is to dramatically lower the damage of the bow since the advantage of stealth with massive damage and no real drawbacks is simply going to erode away the population for non-stealther classes. We are starting to see this already with the explosion of archers, especially in Hibernia. I have submitted screenshots of the rangers population on the server exceeding over 100. Hibernia generally has almost the same archer population of the other two realms combined. I suspect this is the case due to the fact they can spec red self buffs, run 5.5-speed bows, and the difficulty of spotting lurikeens because of their size.

Please don’t compare archers to caster
Damage is nothing....all the bells and whistles is what makes casters deserve cloth armor.

Tue 19 May 2020 7:20 AM by Noashakra

Comparing classes with utility / cc / pets / moc / qc and have all the tools to take the upper hand at ranger with archers that have just raw dmg with their bow to justify them wearing cloth...
I am done xD

Tue 19 May 2020 9:03 AM by Killaloth

The mistake was to give brain-dead people the chance to play a brain-dead stealth zerg and leech class designed to ruin other people incs. No one is playing that class to solo.

I am only playing thidranki ATM, where infiltrators are immensely more powerful than scouts. But you need 3 fingers to play one.

If many brain-dead are playing a gimp scout in thidranki I can't imagine how many are playing a full bow leech class in new frontiers but it's no longer my problem.

Tue 19 May 2020 9:19 AM by Killaloth

Last week solo kills, stealthers.

Those 2 low rank scouts are there only because they were killing expers in frontiers.

All the other scouts are playing to add and leech everything they see.

We just injected pure cancer inside the sever. My buddies on Alb sent me some screenshots of exp grps with 7 scouts inside, I knew that cancer was coming..

Same for any other bow class, scouts are just an example. A predictable shitshow.

Tue 19 May 2020 9:39 AM by CubanXv

This guy seriously.... got his post shredded in another forum and decides to start a fresh one on its own? Same results buddy. Casters have a million more tools to deserve their cloth armor. As for that screenshot, proves the total opposite if anything. It shows that even after a tweak these classes are still on an uphill struggle to get solo kills. All those cry babies that finally starting losing to archers are just trying to nerf them back into the ground for their own superior classes to continue to shit on them. It takes a perfect fight for archers to get that solo kill. The target needs RA's down and the hope I can kite for a real long time without adds. UNLESS they choose to go full melee and even with that, we need all of OUR ras up while YOURS are all down to get an honest one.

Tue 19 May 2020 9:44 AM by Blitze

I was hoping the archery buff would make more people want to play a scout/hunter/ranger solo As it is now more than viable to get RPs this way (obvs shield tanks should always give them a headache).

However, I have played my friar solo a bit and have not seen any solo archers, conversely, I have seen a big increase in archer groups that that now kill me in 5-6 shots (Which is ~ 8 sec with 2 archers and ~4sec with 3, etc). It shows how trying to make a class Viable For the solo stealth predatory playstyle by just increasing damage was a naive move.

We need suggestions on how to fix archers so that they feel comfortable soloing without making groups of them cancer...? This is a tough ask as a portion of this is down to mentality of the player base!

Tue 19 May 2020 10:04 AM by Killaloth

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 19 May 2020 9:44 AM
I was hoping the archery buff would make more people want to play a scout/hunter/ranger solo As it is now more than viable to get RPs this way (obvs shield tanks should always give them a headache).

However, I have played my friar solo a bit and have not seen any solo archers, conversely, I have seen a big increase in archer groups that that now kill me in 5-6 shots (Which is ~ 8 sec with 2 archers and ~4sec with 3, etc). It shows how trying to make a class Viable For the solo stealth predatory playstyle by just increasing damage was a naive move.

We need suggestions on how to fix archers so that they feel comfortable soloing without making groups of them cancer...? This is a tough ask as a portion of this is down to mentality of the player base!

Impossible.

I am telling you, in Thidranki scouts are GIMP. Yet many people play scout stealthzerg because their brain is dead.

You give the brain dead the chance to play the class, they will go for it. One finger needed = happy braindead.

The only solution is to keep the gimp class gimp and force the braindead to play a visible, because they ain't got fingers to play an infiltrator and they are too scared to leech a fight getting close to a target.

Tue 19 May 2020 11:06 AM by Noashakra

What they should give is utility, not raw damage, like sureshot at 35/40 in bow.

Tue 19 May 2020 12:58 PM by Centenario

Killaloth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 May 2020 10:04 AM
Impossible.
I am telling you, in Thidranki scouts are GIMP. Yet many people play scout stealthzerg because their brain is dead.
You give the brain dead the chance to play the class, they will go for it. One finger needed = happy braindead.
The only solution is to keep the gimp class gimp and force the braindead to play a visible, because they ain't got fingers to play an infiltrator and they are too scared to leech a fight getting close to a target.

Playing an archer class and getting kills has been 10x more difficult than playing a healer/caster/assassin/meleetrain.

"Simple can be harder than complex"

When you got only one tool and you are supposed to make a masterpiece, its a lot harder than having 10 tools for every scenario.

Which is why I disagree with archer = braindead

Although I would agree that assist targeting is "small peepi," but caster and melee do it too...

Tue 19 May 2020 1:36 PM by Killaloth

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 19 May 2020 12:58 PM
Killaloth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 May 2020 10:04 AM
Impossible.
I am telling you, in Thidranki scouts are GIMP. Yet many people play scout stealthzerg because their brain is dead.
You give the brain dead the chance to play the class, they will go for it. One finger needed = happy braindead.
The only solution is to keep the gimp class gimp and force the braindead to play a visible, because they ain't got fingers to play an infiltrator and they are too scared to leech a fight getting close to a target.

Playing an archer class and getting kills has been 10x more difficult than playing a healer/caster/assassin/meleetrain.

"Simple can be harder than complex"

When you got only one tool and you are supposed to make a masterpiece, its a lot harder than having 10 tools for every scenario.

Which is why I disagree with archer = braindead

Although I would agree that assist targeting is "small peepi," but caster and melee do it too...

Yes playing a solo scout is challenging. But solo scouts can be counted on an amputated hand.

The remaining 99% of the "small peepi" does as per below and that's why listening to whiners is wrong.

Custom changes can be good and can be bad. Sometimes going back on your step and rolling back a change is the best option. Archery change is the perfect example.

I'm not bothering soloing with a visible in New Frontiers, I won't feed the small peepees.

Tue 19 May 2020 5:59 PM by gromet12

Valk spear line added to Hunters

Just asking for a friend

Wed 20 May 2020 7:24 AM by Sepplord

is dick-shaming the new flavor of the week argument that's somehow supposed to make people take arguments more seriously?

I mean, i agree that the archer situation seems to spiral a bit out of control...and that pick of the group levelling with 6scouts is hilarious. But when i see people talking about people brain and dicksizes because of their classchoice, i immediatly take their comment less serious. It shows they are helpless and over emotional and implies they have no real argument. Even if they have one, its credibility is heavily reduced

Wed 20 May 2020 9:30 AM by Centenario

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 20 May 2020 7:24 AM
is dick-shaming the new flavor of the week argument that's somehow supposed to make people take arguments more seriously?

I mean, i agree that the archer situation seems to spiral a bit out of control...and that pick of the group levelling with 6scouts is hilarious. But when i see people talking about people brain and dicksizes because of their classchoice, i immediatly take their comment less serious. It shows they are helpless and over emotional and implies they have no real argument. Even if they have one, its credibility is heavily reduced

After the latest damage improvements made to archery, a lot of people have started to complain about archery adders now having an impact in BG RVR, 8v8 RvR, Smallman RvR, 1v1 solo and battlegrounds. To make sure that these changes would not be implemented as is, the 8v8 players have convened to create groups of archers as fast as possible and spread havoc in the battlefield. They have used every underhand tactics available to them: assist targeting, stealth zerg, baits, spies, ganking on soloers. They have completely disregarded the 20 years of DAoC ethics, without shame and have made archers look like vermines. They have shown the ugly side of archers.

Now, the good lone archers like clint eastwood, and the bad archers like me the casual. We want to save archery:
- we need to remove the ugly not the good and the bad.
- its hard to fix player behavior/ethics.

We have proposed in the past to put a 1.45 immunity after every arrow to remove assist targeting and stealth zerging of archers.
We could review the damage formula for archery to take into account the target hp%.
We could have different types of arrows (X Damage or XX Damage or XXX Damage with increased cost)
The goal is to keep the following 20 year old formula (Classic without healers and hybrids)
Assassin>Archer>Caster
Archer>Caster>MeleeDPS
Caster>MeleeDPS>Tank
MeleeDPS>Tank>Assassin
Tank>Assassin>Archer

Wed 20 May 2020 10:27 AM by Blitze

i just tried to plug a BD into the rock, paper scissors scheme above. It no work.

Wed 20 May 2020 11:10 AM by Cadebrennus

Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 20 May 2020 9:30 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 20 May 2020 7:24 AM
is dick-shaming the new flavor of the week argument that's somehow supposed to make people take arguments more seriously?

I mean, i agree that the archer situation seems to spiral a bit out of control...and that pick of the group levelling with 6scouts is hilarious. But when i see people talking about people brain and dicksizes because of their classchoice, i immediatly take their comment less serious. It shows they are helpless and over emotional and implies they have no real argument. Even if they have one, its credibility is heavily reduced

After the latest damage improvements made to archery, a lot of people have started to complain about archery adders now having an impact in BG RVR, 8v8 RvR, Smallman RvR, 1v1 solo and battlegrounds. To make sure that these changes would not be implemented as is, the 8v8 players have convened to create groups of archers as fast as possible and spread havoc in the battlefield. They have used every underhand tactics available to them: assist targeting, stealth zerg, baits, spies, ganking on soloers. They have completely disregarded the 20 years of DAoC ethics, without shame and have made archers look like vermines. They have shown the ugly side of archers.

Now, the good lone archers like clint eastwood, and the bad archers like me the casual. We want to save archery:
- we need to remove the ugly not the good and the bad.
- its hard to fix player behavior/ethics.

We have proposed in the past to put a 1.45 immunity after every arrow to remove assist targeting and stealth zerging of archers.
We could review the damage formula for archery to take into account the target hp%.
We could have different types of arrows (X Damage or XX Damage or XXX Damage with increased cost)
The goal is to keep the following 20 year old formula (Classic without healers and hybrids)
Assassin>Archer>Caster
Archer>Caster>MeleeDPS
Caster>MeleeDPS>Tank
MeleeDPS>Tank>Assassin
Tank>Assassin>Archer

You should remove Caster assisting too, to be fair.

Sat 23 May 2020 7:14 AM by Tanakeo

again people complaining about archers doing caster numbers... look at dps man, takes 4 seconds to do a 300 dmg shot to a tank, (if you heavily invested in aug dex), what u think a caster can do in that timeframe with the same ra investment... gtfo lol

Sun 24 May 2020 1:34 PM by Pigleto

Here is my post from another thread:

Right now having high archery is greater than dex. Maybe instead of going above 52 composite archery, they should have done something with dex. Meaning the higher your dex than the higher your damage. Hunters can solo and small man still. They are the top tier archer class right now. Rangers cannot spec decent melee anymore if they go more into bow. This is where rangers in further patches were given more spec points. As a ranger you have to either choose between archery or melee. Its real hard now to play a hybrid. And as a ranger you need to either snare your opponent off you or get that reactionary stun off and then kite and shoot again. This means that rangers are going to rely upon nightshades to be their meat shields for them because their melee skills are subpar now unless you are a full melee ranger. Scouts spec 50 bow, 45 shield, 35 stealth (rr5), and 15 in thrust; they have no melee skills. They are one trick ponies and unless there are multiples, they aren't hard to 1v1. stun, you purge, they snare, they kite, you pull your bow out and shoot and even throw your dog on them. Scouts and Rangers are grouping up because everyone wants to be all archery and so they need meat shields to hide behind because they can't melee. At least if you based bow damage off of dex, people would have to raise their pathfinding or beast craft to 40 and since archery is capped at 52 composite hypothetically speaking they wouldn't spec as high of bow maybe 35 bow again but then if you wanted to do more bow damage you'd choose a race with more dex and then you'd have to invest in more aug dex. I think on my hunter at one point I've had about 356 dex at one point but that was when I was a kobold. As a dwarf hunter I have 300 dex and my spec is 40 bow, 39 spear, 35 stealth, and 40 BC and really I feel as though I don't need any more dex as a hunter because aug dex 5 only gives me 322 dex and thats only 11 points of damage additional on my standard shot and 10 ra points are spent better in IP 5 or some other survivability tool. I don't know what a scout looks like dps wise melee but if you couldn't go above 52 composite bow the new meta might look like 40 bow, 34 slash/thrust, 34 stealth <rr6> and 45 shield. But if you make bow damage based off of dex instead of bow skill you would have more balanced specs. Rangers go to melee spec is 27 bow, 40 pathfinding, 39 CD, 29 blade/pierce, and 35 stealth <rr5>. I think rangers get screwed the most no matter what they do. I think 40 archery is at least a minimum for any archer class because of that penetrating shot. And if you want to do more damage as a hunter right now try 45 bow, 34 BC, 39 spear, and 35 stealth <rr5>. Like I said you do more damage with bow skill from 40 to 45 than you do having more dex. Eventually at rr10 you could do 50 bow, 32 BC, 39 spear and 30 stealth <rr10>.

Sun 24 May 2020 9:22 PM by gotwqqd

Pigleto wrote: ↑
Sun 24 May 2020 1:34 PM
Here is my post from another thread:

Right now having high archery is greater than dex. Maybe instead of going above 52 composite archery, they should have done something with dex. Meaning the higher your dex than the higher your damage. Hunters can solo and small man still. They are the top tier archer class right now. Rangers cannot spec decent melee anymore if they go more into bow. This is where rangers in further patches were given more spec points. As a ranger you have to either choose between archery or melee. Its real hard now to play a hybrid. And as a ranger you need to either snare your opponent off you or get that reactionary stun off and then kite and shoot again. This means that rangers are going to rely upon nightshades to be their meat shields for them because their melee skills are subpar now unless you are a full melee ranger. Scouts spec 50 bow, 45 shield, 35 stealth (rr5), and 15 in thrust; they have no melee skills. They are one trick ponies and unless there are multiples, they aren't hard to 1v1. stun, you purge, they snare, they kite, you pull your bow out and shoot and even throw your dog on them. Scouts and Rangers are grouping up because everyone wants to be all archery and so they need meat shields to hide behind because they can't melee. At least if you based bow damage off of dex, people would have to raise their pathfinding or beast craft to 40 and since archery is capped at 52 composite hypothetically speaking they wouldn't spec as high of bow maybe 35 bow again but then if you wanted to do more bow damage you'd choose a race with more dex and then you'd have to invest in more aug dex. I think on my hunter at one point I've had about 356 dex at one point but that was when I was a kobold. As a dwarf hunter I have 300 dex and my spec is 40 bow, 39 spear, 35 stealth, and 40 BC and really I feel as though I don't need any more dex as a hunter because aug dex 5 only gives me 322 dex and thats only 11 points of damage additional on my standard shot and 10 ra points are spent better in IP 5 or some other survivability tool. I don't know what a scout looks like dps wise melee but if you couldn't go above 52 composite bow the new meta might look like 40 bow, 34 slash/thrust, 34 stealth <rr6> and 45 shield. But if you make bow damage based off of dex instead of bow skill you would have more balanced specs. Rangers go to melee spec is 27 bow, 40 pathfinding, 39 CD, 29 blade/pierce, and 35 stealth <rr5>. I think rangers get screwed the most no matter what they do. I think 40 archery is at least a minimum for any archer class because of that penetrating shot. And if you want to do more damage as a hunter right now try 45 bow, 34 BC, 39 spear, and 35 stealth <rr5>. Like I said you do more damage with bow skill from 40 to 45 than you do having more dex. Eventually at rr10 you could do 50 bow, 32 BC, 39 spear and 30 stealth <rr10>.

Complaining that rangers lose melee damage if they spec higher bow?
Helooooo...this is what spec lines are about

Mon 25 May 2020 9:05 AM by Cadebrennus

Pigleto wrote: ↑
Sun 24 May 2020 1:34 PM
Here is my post from another thread:

Right now having high archery is greater than dex. Maybe instead of going above 52 composite archery, they should have done something with dex. Meaning the higher your dex than the higher your damage. Hunters can solo and small man still. They are the top tier archer class right now. Rangers cannot spec decent melee anymore if they go more into bow. This is where rangers in further patches were given more spec points. As a ranger you have to either choose between archery or melee. Its real hard now to play a hybrid. And as a ranger you need to either snare your opponent off you or get that reactionary stun off and then kite and shoot again. This means that rangers are going to rely upon nightshades to be their meat shields for them because their melee skills are subpar now unless you are a full melee ranger. Scouts spec 50 bow, 45 shield, 35 stealth (rr5), and 15 in thrust; they have no melee skills. They are one trick ponies and unless there are multiples, they aren't hard to 1v1. stun, you purge, they snare, they kite, you pull your bow out and shoot and even throw your dog on them. Scouts and Rangers are grouping up because everyone wants to be all archery and so they need meat shields to hide behind because they can't melee. At least if you based bow damage off of dex, people would have to raise their pathfinding or beast craft to 40 and since archery is capped at 52 composite hypothetically speaking they wouldn't spec as high of bow maybe 35 bow again but then if you wanted to do more bow damage you'd choose a race with more dex and then you'd have to invest in more aug dex. I think on my hunter at one point I've had about 356 dex at one point but that was when I was a kobold. As a dwarf hunter I have 300 dex and my spec is 40 bow, 39 spear, 35 stealth, and 40 BC and really I feel as though I don't need any more dex as a hunter because aug dex 5 only gives me 322 dex and thats only 11 points of damage additional on my standard shot and 10 ra points are spent better in IP 5 or some other survivability tool. I don't know what a scout looks like dps wise melee but if you couldn't go above 52 composite bow the new meta might look like 40 bow, 34 slash/thrust, 34 stealth <rr6> and 45 shield. But if you make bow damage based off of dex instead of bow skill you would have more balanced specs. Rangers go to melee spec is 27 bow, 40 pathfinding, 39 CD, 29 blade/pierce, and 35 stealth <rr5>. I think rangers get screwed the most no matter what they do. I think 40 archery is at least a minimum for any archer class because of that penetrating shot. And if you want to do more damage as a hunter right now try 45 bow, 34 BC, 39 spear, and 35 stealth <rr5>. Like I said you do more damage with bow skill from 40 to 45 than you do having more dex. Eventually at rr10 you could do 50 bow, 32 BC, 39 spear and 30 stealth <rr10>.

Forcing a range specced character to rely on a meatshield is what brings balance to this game. Furthermore, having Archery damage tied more significantly to Dex than spec points will make Rangers OP in relation to other Archers and that is something I have never supported.

Mon 25 May 2020 8:16 PM by Siouxsie

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 20 May 2020 11:10 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 20 May 2020 9:30 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 20 May 2020 7:24 AM
is dick-shaming the new flavor of the week argument that's somehow supposed to make people take arguments more seriously?

I mean, i agree that the archer situation seems to spiral a bit out of control...and that pick of the group levelling with 6scouts is hilarious. But when i see people talking about people brain and dicksizes because of their classchoice, i immediatly take their comment less serious. It shows they are helpless and over emotional and implies they have no real argument. Even if they have one, its credibility is heavily reduced

After the latest damage improvements made to archery, a lot of people have started to complain about archery adders now having an impact in BG RVR, 8v8 RvR, Smallman RvR, 1v1 solo and battlegrounds. To make sure that these changes would not be implemented as is, the 8v8 players have convened to create groups of archers as fast as possible and spread havoc in the battlefield. They have used every underhand tactics available to them: assist targeting, stealth zerg, baits, spies, ganking on soloers. They have completely disregarded the 20 years of DAoC ethics, without shame and have made archers look like vermines. They have shown the ugly side of archers.

Now, the good lone archers like clint eastwood, and the bad archers like me the casual. We want to save archery:
- we need to remove the ugly not the good and the bad.
- its hard to fix player behavior/ethics.

We have proposed in the past to put a 1.45 immunity after every arrow to remove assist targeting and stealth zerging of archers.
We could review the damage formula for archery to take into account the target hp%.
We could have different types of arrows (X Damage or XX Damage or XXX Damage with increased cost)
The goal is to keep the following 20 year old formula (Classic without healers and hybrids)
Assassin>Archer>Caster
Archer>Caster>MeleeDPS
Caster>MeleeDPS>Tank
MeleeDPS>Tank>Assassin
Tank>Assassin>Archer

You should remove Caster assisting too, to be fair.

Make it so only the single lurikeen mouthbreather who spams baseline stun->nuke->nuke can actually cast spell on the target.
Not him + his 7 buddies.

Tue 26 May 2020 5:53 AM by Cadebrennus

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 25 May 2020 8:16 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 20 May 2020 11:10 AM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Wed 20 May 2020 9:30 AM
After the latest damage improvements made to archery, a lot of people have started to complain about archery adders now having an impact in BG RVR, 8v8 RvR, Smallman RvR, 1v1 solo and battlegrounds. To make sure that these changes would not be implemented as is, the 8v8 players have convened to create groups of archers as fast as possible and spread havoc in the battlefield. They have used every underhand tactics available to them: assist targeting, stealth zerg, baits, spies, ganking on soloers. They have completely disregarded the 20 years of DAoC ethics, without shame and have made archers look like vermines. They have shown the ugly side of archers.

Now, the good lone archers like clint eastwood, and the bad archers like me the casual. We want to save archery:
- we need to remove the ugly not the good and the bad.
- its hard to fix player behavior/ethics.

We have proposed in the past to put a 1.45 immunity after every arrow to remove assist targeting and stealth zerging of archers.
We could review the damage formula for archery to take into account the target hp%.
We could have different types of arrows (X Damage or XX Damage or XXX Damage with increased cost)
The goal is to keep the following 20 year old formula (Classic without healers and hybrids)
Assassin>Archer>Caster
Archer>Caster>MeleeDPS
Caster>MeleeDPS>Tank
MeleeDPS>Tank>Assassin
Tank>Assassin>Archer

You should remove Caster assisting too, to be fair.

Make it so only the single lurikeen mouthbreather who spams baseline stun->nuke->nuke can actually cast spell on the target.
Not him + his 7 buddies.

Why be racist against Lurikeens?