bigne88 wrote: ↑Sat 16 Nov 2019 2:52 AM
Talking abot stealther class players, I prefer to think that expers in fz are a font of morale and ego boost for nolifer nerds who failed so hard in RL that fails also in a videogame.
Nothing wrong with being greedy.
Bistravoda wrote: ↑Sat 16 Nov 2019 12:15 PMbigne88 wrote: ↑Sat 16 Nov 2019 2:52 AMBistravoda wrote: ↑Fri 15 Nov 2019 10:11 PMexpers dont go in pvp zona my man dont be greedy for xp it is like driving a car 120 km it should be safe, but 200 km ooohhh lord.
Talking abot stealther class players, I prefer to think that expers in fz are a font of morale and ego boost for nolifer nerds who failed so hard in RL that fails also in a videogame.
Nothing wrong with being greedy.
my man i won't go off topic its not the right place to crying about stealther, has other places to do it. peace bthcry
bigne88 wrote: ↑Sat 16 Nov 2019 5:49 PMBistravoda wrote: ↑Sat 16 Nov 2019 12:15 PMbigne88 wrote: ↑Sat 16 Nov 2019 2:52 AMTalking abot stealther class players, I prefer to think that expers in fz are a font of morale and ego boost for nolifer nerds who failed so hard in RL that fails also in a videogame.
Nothing wrong with being greedy.
my man i won't go off topic its not the right place to crying about stealther, has other places to do it. peace bthcry
Keep living in your mom basement
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Sat 14 Mar 2020 3:41 AMIs 44 blades really worth it?
How often is the 3rd part of the evade chain used?
Damage-wise, It seemed like 39 vs 44 results in +1-2 damage per styled hit on test dummies (along with minimal if even noticeable increase to crit and DA damage)
Weaponskill (DmgMod) maxes at 52 composite, so there should be no difference between 39 and 44 at RR3+
Just wondering if there are other factors I'm not considering.
Currently diggin' 50 PF, 39 Blades, and 18+ CD for rear snare and side stun, with composite 50 stealth.
inoeth wrote: ↑Sat 14 Mar 2020 6:32 PMsylvynyr wrote: ↑Sat 14 Mar 2020 3:41 AMIs 44 blades really worth it?
How often is the 3rd part of the evade chain used?
Damage-wise, It seemed like 39 vs 44 results in +1-2 damage per styled hit on test dummies (along with minimal if even noticeable increase to crit and DA damage)
Weaponskill (DmgMod) maxes at 52 composite, so there should be no difference between 39 and 44 at RR3+
Just wondering if there are other factors I'm not considering.
Currently diggin' 50 PF, 39 Blades, and 18+ CD for rear snare and side stun, with composite 50 stealth.
52 comp spec only caps ypour base dmg, your styl dmg however will ofc increase
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Sat 14 Mar 2020 7:46 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Sat 14 Mar 2020 6:32 PMsylvynyr wrote: ↑Sat 14 Mar 2020 3:41 AMIs 44 blades really worth it?
How often is the 3rd part of the evade chain used?
Damage-wise, It seemed like 39 vs 44 results in +1-2 damage per styled hit on test dummies (along with minimal if even noticeable increase to crit and DA damage)
Weaponskill (DmgMod) maxes at 52 composite, so there should be no difference between 39 and 44 at RR3+
Just wondering if there are other factors I'm not considering.
Currently diggin' 50 PF, 39 Blades, and 18+ CD for rear snare and side stun, with composite 50 stealth.
52 comp spec only caps ypour base dmg, your styl dmg however will ofc increase
Absolutely, but it seemed that on the test dummies it only increased Fire Blade by 1 style damage and Spectrum Blade by 2 style damage that only applies to MH damage. Tested with Fire Blade and Spectrum Blade only since test dummies don't evade ;\
imweasel wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:09 AMSo would a blades melee ranger go with:
Shar
Str/con/dex for stats?
At low rr:
38 stealth
39 blades
12 cd
27 bow
46 pf
Occasionally drop stealth as RR increases and add to cd?
Alternate spec:
38 stealth
39 blades
39 cd
27 bow
27 pf
inoeth wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:01 AMimweasel wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:09 AMSo would a blades melee ranger go with:
Shar
Str/con/dex for stats?
At low rr:
38 stealth
39 blades
12 cd
27 bow
46 pf
Occasionally drop stealth as RR increases and add to cd?
Alternate spec:
38 stealth
39 blades
39 cd
27 bow
27 pf
i did an excel sheet a while ago for ranger specs and it turned out that the sweet spot for highest dmg is something between yellow and red dmg add, so i would not go under that... only if you want to charge dmg add every fight thats a different story then
inoeth wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:01 AMimweasel wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:09 AMSo would a blades melee ranger go with:
Shar
Str/con/dex for stats?
At low rr:
38 stealth
39 blades
12 cd
27 bow
46 pf
Occasionally drop stealth as RR increases and add to cd?
Alternate spec:
38 stealth
39 blades
39 cd
27 bow
27 pf
i did an excel sheet a while ago for ranger specs and it turned out that the sweet spot for highest dmg is something between yellow and red dmg add, so i would not go under that... only if you want to charge dmg add every fight thats a different story then
imweasel wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 11:50 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:01 AMimweasel wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:09 AMSo would a blades melee ranger go with:
Shar
Str/con/dex for stats?
At low rr:
38 stealth
39 blades
12 cd
27 bow
46 pf
Occasionally drop stealth as RR increases and add to cd?
Alternate spec:
38 stealth
39 blades
39 cd
27 bow
27 pf
i did an excel sheet a while ago for ranger specs and it turned out that the sweet spot for highest dmg is something between yellow and red dmg add, so i would not go under that... only if you want to charge dmg add every fight thats a different story then
So PF should be at least 36? How much damage am I giving up if I drop CD to 12? Or should I drop archery down to get more PF?
Perhaps something more like this?
38 stealth
39 blades
31 cd
27 archery
36 pf
Or drop CD to 12 and get pf to 46?
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:30 PMimweasel wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 11:50 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:01 AMi did an excel sheet a while ago for ranger specs and it turned out that the sweet spot for highest dmg is something between yellow and red dmg add, so i would not go under that... only if you want to charge dmg add every fight thats a different story then
So PF should be at least 36? How much damage am I giving up if I drop CD to 12? Or should I drop archery down to get more PF?
Perhaps something more like this?
38 stealth
39 blades
31 cd
27 archery
36 pf
Or drop CD to 12 and get pf to 46?
Never drop CD lower than 18. You need that side stun. I recommend you drop the CD lower in your proposed spec in order to get Rapid Fire. You're not going to do much melee damage as a hybrid Ranger anyways.
imweasel wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 7:01 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:30 PMimweasel wrote: ↑Wed 1 Apr 2020 11:50 AMSo PF should be at least 36? How much damage am I giving up if I drop CD to 12? Or should I drop archery down to get more PF?
Perhaps something more like this?
38 stealth
39 blades
31 cd
27 archery
36 pf
Or drop CD to 12 and get pf to 46?
Never drop CD lower than 18. You need that side stun. I recommend you drop the CD lower in your proposed spec in order to get Rapid Fire. You're not going to do much melee damage as a hybrid Ranger anyways.
So for a melee ranger how about this?
38 stealth
44 blades
18 cd
12 archery
46 pf
imweasel wrote: ↑Thu 2 Apr 2020 8:50 PMIs it better to have more blades than cd? Or is it better to have more CD than blades? It seems the side stun and rear snare in CD is pretty strong.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:39 PMimweasel wrote: ↑Thu 2 Apr 2020 8:50 PMIs it better to have more blades than cd? Or is it better to have more CD than blades? It seems the side stun and rear snare in CD is pretty strong.
The calculations I have done suggest to either go big or go home with CD. CD is great with a lot of spec points (44+) or with just barely enough (just 18 for your utility styles). Sitting in the middle of that seems to be a waste of points that are better spent elsewhere.
I have a similar philosophy about Blades, but its minimum utility is at 39, and its "go big or go home" spec is at 50 thanks to the excellent growth rates you get on the rear style and its follow-up at 50.
imweasel wrote: ↑Fri 3 Apr 2020 10:54 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:39 PMimweasel wrote: ↑Thu 2 Apr 2020 8:50 PMIs it better to have more blades than cd? Or is it better to have more CD than blades? It seems the side stun and rear snare in CD is pretty strong.
The calculations I have done suggest to either go big or go home with CD. CD is great with a lot of spec points (44+) or with just barely enough (just 18 for your utility styles). Sitting in the middle of that seems to be a waste of points that are better spent elsewhere.
I have a similar philosophy about Blades, but its minimum utility is at 39, and its "go big or go home" spec is at 50 thanks to the excellent growth rates you get on the rear style and its follow-up at 50.
Another noob question.
How much do I need to spec in my baseline weapon (in this case blades) to decrease variance and increase base damage when using CD styles? Or should I just spec in blades and get 18CD?
imweasel wrote: ↑Mon 30 Mar 2020 6:25 PMSorry for the noob question, but is it worth spec'ing in PF? Seems combined forces would cover a lot of the ground the self buffs do.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 9:31 AMIf you are melee ranger, what is the point to have an add dmg that you don't maximize the value with a low CD spec...
For a low rr melee ranger, PF should be 40. There is not enough gain with the red add dmg (3-5 dmg pet hits vs the yellow) and red buffs for the invested points (what you want is the red force buff as a blade user and it's a lot of points wasted to reach that).
My spec :
33 blade
44 CD
42 PF
31 stealth
14 bow
It's too hard to pass the fireblade combo and the dmg of the first style is bad so I got rid of it and I use the debuff atk speed on evade with the CD chain (I would not do that before 6/7L and keep the 39 blade until then).
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 9:31 AMIf you are melee ranger, what is the point to have an add dmg that you don't maximize the value with a low CD spec...
For a low rr melee ranger, PF should be 40. There is not enough gain with the red add dmg (3-5 dmg pet hits vs the yellow) and red buffs for the invested points (what you want is the red force buff as a blade user and it's a lot of points wasted to reach that).
My spec :
33 blade
44 CD
42 PF
31 stealth
14 bow
It's too hard to pass the fireblade combo and the dmg of the first style is bad so I got rid of it and I use the debuff atk speed on evade with the CD chain (I would not do that before 6/7L and keep the 39 blade until then).
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:07 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 9:31 AMIf you are melee ranger, what is the point to have an add dmg that you don't maximize the value with a low CD spec...
For a low rr melee ranger, PF should be 40. There is not enough gain with the red add dmg (3-5 dmg pet hits vs the yellow) and red buffs for the invested points (what you want is the red force buff as a blade user and it's a lot of points wasted to reach that).
My spec :
33 blade
44 CD
42 PF
31 stealth
14 bow
It's too hard to pass the fireblade combo and the dmg of the first style is bad so I got rid of it and I use the debuff atk speed on evade with the CD chain (I would not do that before 6/7L and keep the 39 blade until then).
Phoenix provides +.86% offhand chance per CD point with 25% base2019-3-2 Saturday
dw / cd scaling increase from .68% per dw spec point to .86%
RR1
18+11 = 29 CD = ~49.94% offhand chance
44+11 = 55 CD = ~72.3% offhand chance
RR9 (assuming since spec 33 blades is mentioned + 19 = 52 composite)18+19 = 37 CD = ~56.82 offhand chance
44+19 = 63 CD = ~79.18% offhand chance
Technically 18 -> 44 could be considered a 22.36% DPS improvement over enough time, however out of every 10 attacks it means swinging the offhand ~2 extra times and damage is not guaranteed (can still miss, be evaded, parried, blocked, etc). There's also improvement to style damage if CD styles are used, however Blades seem more useful in most scenarios for Rangers.
Composite 50 stealth is highly preferred.
Composite 52 weapon is essentially a necessity to maximize physical damage.Style-wise, 18 CD gets the utility while 39 Blades gets that sweet 30% ASR, otherwise the differences in Growth Rates are negligible.
CD Anytime = .49 -> .81
Blades Anytime = .48 -> .80 with 30% ASR
CD Evade = .88 bleed3-> .92 23% ASR
Blades Evade = .89 4sec stun -> .88 bleed8
[list=]Blades ASR is second style off anytime[/list]
[list=]CD ASR is second style off evade after a bleed[/list]
[list=]Difference between 39 and 44 Blades for style damage appears to be ~1-2 damage per hit[/list]
[list=]Sweet spots seem to be 39 Blades and 18 CD[/list]
PF provides a decent benefit not to be underestimated.50 PF = 62 str & 90 d/q & 9.4da
42 PF = 51 str & 78 d/q & 7.3da
Red DA = 28.77% more damage than Yellow DA
From the perspective of DA at RR1:
42pf/44cd = 100% damage + 100%*72.3% = 172.3%
46pf/18cd = 128.77% damage + 128.77%*49.94% = 193%
A major issue with Phoenix for stealthers is the low weaponskill due to lack of buffbots and reliance upon CF Pots. Having the ability to spec PF and gain the necessary weaponstat boosts that are not available to other stealthers seems like a fantastic boon along with DA and SpecAF.
imweasel wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:39 PMSo as a blades spec Shar melee ranger would this be a good spec for low rr?
38 stealth
39 blades
18 CD
13 bow
50 PF
There seems to be a far ranging opinion on how to spec a melee ranger...
imweasel wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:39 PMsylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:07 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 9:31 AMIf you are melee ranger, what is the point to have an add dmg that you don't maximize the value with a low CD spec...
For a low rr melee ranger, PF should be 40. There is not enough gain with the red add dmg (3-5 dmg pet hits vs the yellow) and red buffs for the invested points (what you want is the red force buff as a blade user and it's a lot of points wasted to reach that).
My spec :
33 blade
44 CD
42 PF
31 stealth
14 bow
It's too hard to pass the fireblade combo and the dmg of the first style is bad so I got rid of it and I use the debuff atk speed on evade with the CD chain (I would not do that before 6/7L and keep the 39 blade until then).
Phoenix provides +.86% offhand chance per CD point with 25% base2019-3-2 Saturday
dw / cd scaling increase from .68% per dw spec point to .86%
RR1
18+11 = 29 CD = ~49.94% offhand chance
44+11 = 55 CD = ~72.3% offhand chance
RR9 (assuming since spec 33 blades is mentioned + 19 = 52 composite)18+19 = 37 CD = ~56.82 offhand chance
44+19 = 63 CD = ~79.18% offhand chance
Technically 18 -> 44 could be considered a 22.36% DPS improvement over enough time, however out of every 10 attacks it means swinging the offhand ~2 extra times and damage is not guaranteed (can still miss, be evaded, parried, blocked, etc). There's also improvement to style damage if CD styles are used, however Blades seem more useful in most scenarios for Rangers.
Composite 50 stealth is highly preferred.
Composite 52 weapon is essentially a necessity to maximize physical damage.Style-wise, 18 CD gets the utility while 39 Blades gets that sweet 30% ASR, otherwise the differences in Growth Rates are negligible.
CD Anytime = .49 -> .81
Blades Anytime = .48 -> .80 with 30% ASR
CD Evade = .88 bleed3-> .92 23% ASR
Blades Evade = .89 4sec stun -> .88 bleed8
[list=]Blades ASR is second style off anytime[/list]
[list=]CD ASR is second style off evade after a bleed[/list]
[list=]Difference between 39 and 44 Blades for style damage appears to be ~1-2 damage per hit[/list]
[list=]Sweet spots seem to be 39 Blades and 18 CD[/list]
PF provides a decent benefit not to be underestimated.50 PF = 62 str & 90 d/q & 9.4da
42 PF = 51 str & 78 d/q & 7.3da
Red DA = 28.77% more damage than Yellow DA
From the perspective of DA at RR1:
42pf/44cd = 100% damage + 100%*72.3% = 172.3%
46pf/18cd = 128.77% damage + 128.77%*49.94% = 193%
A major issue with Phoenix for stealthers is the low weaponskill due to lack of buffbots and reliance upon CF Pots. Having the ability to spec PF and gain the necessary weaponstat boosts that are not available to other stealthers seems like a fantastic boon along with DA and SpecAF.
So as a blades spec Shar melee ranger would this be a good spec for low rr?
38 stealth
39 blades
18 CD
13 bow
50 PF
There seems to be a far ranging opinion on how to spec a melee ranger...
imweasel wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 2:57 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 9:31 AMIf you are melee ranger, what is the point to have an add dmg that you don't maximize the value with a low CD spec...
For a low rr melee ranger, PF should be 40. There is not enough gain with the red add dmg (3-5 dmg pet hits vs the yellow) and red buffs for the invested points (what you want is the red force buff as a blade user and it's a lot of points wasted to reach that).
My spec :
33 blade
44 CD
42 PF
31 stealth
14 bow
It's too hard to pass the fireblade combo and the dmg of the first style is bad so I got rid of it and I use the debuff atk speed on evade with the CD chain (I would not do that before 6/7L and keep the 39 blade until then).
How do you get composite stealth to 50? Or does that not matter? And why 42pf? Is +14af buff worth it?
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 5:40 PMi used the wrong term sorry about that.
But do you challenge my conclusion or not ? That even without taking weapon procs into account and the increase swing speed when you double hit, on paper my 44CD/42PF is better than 46PF/18CD.
Freedomcall wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:38 PMBtw why are you two guys comparing rr9 spec vs rr3 spec?
If you are RR9, you are already at 28CD, not 18CD.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:33 PMThe problem with fireblade, it's that you go against lots of people with :
Evade + debuffs
blocks + parade
it's a nightmare to passe the 2 styles, and the dps of fireblade is horrible, you NEED to pass the 2nd style to have a similar DPS as the taunt twice.
It was too hard to pass the 2nd style and I was losing fights because of this.
11 strenght is on paper 2 points of dmg pet hit. I made the calculation with Str 3. So what is the point to invest so many points that could go elsewhere ? You would gain more DPS with the style dmg with the points you would put in blade or dual. The dex is useless for melee ranger, only the viva is important and you can get to 250 with quickness 1 and MoA 5 and the yellow buff.
daytonchambers wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:40 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:33 PMThe problem with fireblade, it's that you go against lots of people with :
Evade + debuffs
blocks + parade
it's a nightmare to passe the 2 styles, and the dps of fireblade is horrible, you NEED to pass the 2nd style to have a similar DPS as the taunt twice.
It was too hard to pass the 2nd style and I was losing fights because of this.
11 strenght is on paper 2 points of dmg pet hit. I made the calculation with Str 3. So what is the point to invest so many points that could go elsewhere ? You would gain more DPS with the style dmg with the points you would put in blade or dual. The dex is useless for melee ranger, only the viva is important and you can get to 250 with quickness 1 and MoA 5 and the yellow buff.
You don't use Fire Blade chain repeatedly. You do it long enough to land the ASR, then you switch to styles with better growth.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:42 PMYou think I didn't know that ? I was 39 blade until the 7L.
Do you think you were solo enough to have the same experience I have in 1vs1 ?
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:40 PMFreedomcall wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:38 PMBtw why are you two guys comparing rr9 spec vs rr3 spec?
If you are RR9, you are already at 28CD, not 18CD.
What? I compare what is comparable. I don't know what you speak about
Second I said I would not go for this kind of spec before the 5/6L because you need to decrease blade but keep composite 52.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 5:40 PMBut do you challenge my conclusion or not ? That even without taking weapon procs into account and the increase swing speed when you double hit, on paper my 44CD/42PF is better than 46PF/18CD.
daytonchambers wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:50 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:42 PMYou think I didn't know that ? I was 39 blade until the 7L.
Do you think you were solo enough to have the same experience I have in 1vs1 ?
No need to get pissy, I was simply stating my point of view about the styles in general and not trying to "school you" in particular.
The player needs to determine whether the lower dps and likely misses are worth it when the ASR payoff finally lands. This will be based on the players experience, and what particular class they're fighting. Simple as that.
And for the record I am also in the rr7s and play solo, so yes I do think I have similar experience to you when it comes to trying to land style chains.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:33 PMThe problem with fireblade, it's that you go against lots of people with :
Evade + debuffs
blocks + parade
it's a nightmare to passe the 2 styles, and the dps of fireblade is horrible, you NEED to pass the 2nd style to have a similar DPS as the taunt twice.
It was too hard to pass the 2nd style and I was losing fights because of this.
11 strenght is on paper 2 points of dmg pet hit. I made the calculation with Str 3. So what is the point to invest so many points that could go elsewhere ? You would gain more DPS with the style dmg with the points you would put in blade or dual. The dex is useless for melee ranger, only the viva is important and you can get to 250 with quickness 1 and MoA 5 and the yellow buff.
Freedomcall wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:52 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:40 PMFreedomcall wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:38 PMBtw why are you two guys comparing rr9 spec vs rr3 spec?
If you are RR9, you are already at 28CD, not 18CD.
What? I compare what is comparable. I don't know what you speak about
Second I said I would not go for this kind of spec before the 5/6L because you need to decrease blade but keep composite 52.
Yeah I already read that 5/6L stuff, all good, but you keep comparing 44CD/42PF with 46PF/18CD and it is pretty misleading.Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 5:40 PMBut do you challenge my conclusion or not ? That even without taking weapon procs into account and the increase swing speed when you double hit, on paper my 44CD/42PF is better than 46PF/18CD.
If you want to compare RR9 spec, you should compare 44CD/42PF with 46PF/28CD for more accurate debate.
Or, something that is not 44CD, if you want to talk about low RR spec, cuz 44CD is not low RR rangers can go.
Freedomcall wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:38 PMBtw why are you two guys comparing rr9 spec vs rr3 spec?
If you are RR9, you are already at 28CD, not 18CD.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:58 PMFreedomcall wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:52 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:40 PMWhat? I compare what is comparable. I don't know what you speak about
Second I said I would not go for this kind of spec before the 5/6L because you need to decrease blade but keep composite 52.
Yeah I already read that 5/6L stuff, all good, but you keep comparing 44CD/42PF with 46PF/18CD and it is pretty misleading.Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 5:40 PMBut do you challenge my conclusion or not ? That even without taking weapon procs into account and the increase swing speed when you double hit, on paper my 44CD/42PF is better than 46PF/18CD.
If you want to compare RR9 spec, you should compare 44CD/42PF with 46PF/28CD for more accurate debate.
Or, something that is not 44CD, if you want to talk about low RR spec, cuz 44CD is not low RR rangers can go.
Exept I am not the one who brought the 46/18 (you can be 18 if you put your points in other stuff like bow or blade even at rr9). So i compared what was brought to me.
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:58 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:33 PMThe problem with fireblade, it's that you go against lots of people with :
Evade + debuffs
blocks + parade
it's a nightmare to passe the 2 styles, and the dps of fireblade is horrible, you NEED to pass the 2nd style to have a similar DPS as the taunt twice.
It was too hard to pass the 2nd style and I was losing fights because of this.
11 strenght is on paper 2 points of dmg pet hit. I made the calculation with Str 3. So what is the point to invest so many points that could go elsewhere ? You would gain more DPS with the style dmg with the points you would put in blade or dual. The dex is useless for melee ranger, only the viva is important and you can get to 250 with quickness 1 and MoA 5 and the yellow buff.
D/Q still improves Evasion and helps cap swing speed as you mentioned.
What is +11 strength when debuffed though?
11 RA points to cap quickness? (other benefits from MoA are acknowledged such as improvements to CF Pots
Fireblade, Spectrum Blade and Squall (Taunt) all have the same to hit bonus.
.59 + .59 = .59 average GR (squall + squall)
.48 + .80 = .64 average GR (fireblade + spectrum blade) if they both hit of course
I won't discredit your experience especially considering your RR, but I wanna say I rather consistently hit two style combos both on my Blades NS and Blades Ranger, both with a 2nd chain style providing that sweet sweet added ASR benefit, and both are Lurikeens gimped on Strength.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:55 PMYou have 6% of my solo kills, so excuse me if you lecturing me about how I should play my ranger made me react in an aggressive manner
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:03 PMWith a NS, it's good because of the advantage with all your debuffs, but on a ranger I disagree. The problem is that 10% miss + 25% evade vs a sin, it makes it hard to land the chain, and when want to land it, it's a the start of the fight. In my experience, it's too hard to pass on everything that has a high defense. Also the points I spare in blade can be used elsewhere.
The dex/qui bonus to evade is peanuts, it's not even 0.5%, so the dex is only useful for a bow user.
yeah same value for how many points spent? you could spend them in dual instead and increase your DPS this way.sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:08 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:03 PMWith a NS, it's good because of the advantage with all your debuffs, but on a ranger I disagree. The problem is that 10% miss + 25% evade vs a sin, it makes it hard to land the chain, and when want to land it, it's a the start of the fight. In my experience, it's too hard to pass on everything that has a high defense. Also the points I spare in blade can be used elsewhere.
The dex/qui bonus to evade is peanuts, it's not even 0.5%, so the dex is only useful for a bow user.
But we're talking about a lot of peanuts here, especially at RR9.
39 vs 44 spec = 1-2 damage
+11 str = 1-2 damage
.5% here .2% there... it all adds up.
daytonchambers wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:04 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:55 PMYou have 6% of my solo kills, so excuse me if you lecturing me about how I should play my ranger made me react in an aggressive manner
There are multiple opportunities to land the fire-spectrum chain, either after an Ice storm or a Horizon is one possibility provided the stun isn't immediately purged. And you should know this.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:09 PMyeah same value for how many points spent? you could spend them in dual instead.sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:08 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:03 PMWith a NS, it's good because of the advantage with all your debuffs, but on a ranger I disagree. The problem is that 10% miss + 25% evade vs a sin, it makes it hard to land the chain, and when want to land it, it's a the start of the fight. In my experience, it's too hard to pass on everything that has a high defense. Also the points I spare in blade can be used elsewhere.
The dex/qui bonus to evade is peanuts, it's not even 0.5%, so the dex is only useful for a bow user.
But we're talking about a lot of peanuts here, especially at RR9.
39 vs 44 spec = 1-2 damage
+11 str = 1-2 damage
.5% here .2% there... it all adds up.
except that your calculation is wrong. I post it again :sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:11 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:09 PMyeah same value for how many points spent? you could spend them in dual instead.sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:08 PMBut we're talking about a lot of peanuts here, especially at RR9.
39 vs 44 spec = 1-2 damage
+11 str = 1-2 damage
.5% here .2% there... it all adds up.
Except we just saw that 42pf/44cd is 1% less DPS than 46pf/28cd...
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:11 PMdaytonchambers wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:04 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 6:55 PMYou have 6% of my solo kills, so excuse me if you lecturing me about how I should play my ranger made me react in an aggressive manner
There are multiple opportunities to land the fire-spectrum chain, either after an Ice storm or a Horizon is one possibility provided the stun isn't immediately purged. And you should know this.
I used the CD debuff chain after a stun which deal WAY more dmg and debuff atk by 22%. If you play solo, you don't alway have the luxery to place a side stun.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:13 PMexcept that your calculation is wrong. I post it again :
Also you second example, with 28, it's not working like this... Do you want another calculation ? it's actually simple, take my table above and add 6.32 dmg ((63+19) *0.8%*10 dual points)
you still don't reach same dps as the 44/42
because you have 8% chances more to land a hit, you add 8% of one hit to my 46/18 calculation, it's still inferior there.
AGAIN :
this doesn't take into acount all the rest like a LT proc from your left hand that is actually a huge deal in a duel.
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:16 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:11 PMdaytonchambers wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:04 PMThere are multiple opportunities to land the fire-spectrum chain, either after an Ice storm or a Horizon is one possibility provided the stun isn't immediately purged. And you should know this.
I used the CD debuff chain after a stun which deal WAY more dmg and debuff atk by 22%. If you play solo, you don't alway have the luxery to place a side stun.
CD Debuff Evade .88 -> .92 = .900 avg
Blades Stun Evade .89 -> .88 = .885 avg
Or maybe you used the Blades evade stun first, while I would use the evade stun style twice before proceeding to the next style.
.89 -> .88 -> .92 = .897 avg
.89 -> .89 -> .88 = .887 avg
Or maybe use the evade stun, then land your 2nd pt 30% ASR?
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:19 PMsylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:16 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:11 PMI used the CD debuff chain after a stun which deal WAY more dmg and debuff atk by 22%. If you play solo, you don't alway have the luxery to place a side stun.
CD Debuff Evade .88 -> .92 = .900 avg
Blades Stun Evade .89 -> .88 = .885 avg
Or maybe you used the Blades evade stun first, while I would use the evade stun style twice before proceeding to the next style.
.89 -> .88 -> .92 = .897 avg
.89 -> .89 -> .88 = .887 avg
Or maybe use the evade stun, then land your 2nd pt 30% ASR?
except that because I have more in dual than in blade, my dual style make more in term of dmg, so I have no interest in landing twice the stun style.
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:18 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:13 PMexcept that your calculation is wrong. I post it again :
Also you second example, with 28, it's not working like this... Do you want another calculation ? it's actually simple, take my table above and add 6.32 dmg ((63+19) *0.8%*10 dual points)
you still don't reach same dps as the 44/42
because you have 8% chances more to land a hit, you add 8% of one hit to my 46/18 calculation, it's still inferior there.
AGAIN :
this doesn't take into acount all the rest like a LT proc from your left hand that is actually a huge deal in a duel.
Again, DPS is over time. Either you do calculations based on relative percentages which account for certain constants, or you sample a large enough pool to see the specific effects over time.
And again.... procs have a rate over time. Slow weapons will proc more because there are less chances/swings for it to proc.
daytonchambers wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:27 PMThis has devolved from "post your ranger spec" to "argue with one another about who has the best spec"
Start with 35st 39blade 19CD 40PF. After that take the remaining points and dump them in either PF and CD for a melee toon, or get bow to 35 for a hybrid.
Or, Just be a keen shooter and everything is fixed! =)
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:22 PMA dd proc adds to your dps man, it seems that you don't get that. If I proc more, my DPS increase because I do more dmg in the same time lapse... They don't have a proc rate over time. They have a proc rate that is weapon speed *2.5% (from memory this 2.5%), and the faster you hit, the more you proc during a fight, that's why you want to slower MH possible and reach the swing cap...
Do you know your subject ?
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:39 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:22 PMA dd proc adds to your dps man, it seems that you don't get that. If I proc more, my DPS increase because I do more dmg in the same time lapse... They don't have a proc rate over time. They have a proc rate that is weapon speed *2.5% (from memory this 2.5%), and the faster you hit, the more you proc during a fight, that's why you want to slower MH possible and reach the swing cap...
Do you know your subject ?
You are not the only one who has procs in that equation. And procs fire based of a proc rate over time... Trying to find the Grab Bag that spelled it out, but in the meantime here are two tidbits...
2019-5-23 Thursday
reflex attack chance now takes weapon speed into account like other melee proc chances
http://apothecary.daoc-sites.info/faq.php
Q. What is the percentage chance of an Effect / Reactive Effect going off?
A. The chance for an Effect to 'proc' is based on the delay of the weapon it is imbued into but Mythic has not released the formula for how it is calculated.
Weapon procs take SPD into account meaning faster weapons proc less often per swing, but have more chances/swings to proc and slower weapons proc more often per swing, but they have less chances/swings to proc over the same amount of time. In the end, they proc the same amount over time.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:31 PMMan it's not a problem, everyone should spec as they want, but what pissed me off is to see advices made with wrong assuptions.
I am not saying that my 33 blades is better, than the 39, if you like the debuff nopb, I give my opinion about why at high rank it's not the best.
But for the CD vs PF dps calculation, or for the proc rate, it's just wrong.
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:48 PMOh thanks, for proving my point. it take SPD so it's a multiplicator of your weapon speed lol (3.9 or 4.2). Except that when your reach the swing speed, because the proc is dependant of the SPD of the WEAPON, the 4.2 will proc more often when you reach the swing cap...
if you take both weapon with an toon that doesn't cap the swing speed, it doesn't change anything (hey it's what I wrote before !) they will proc the same.
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:59 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:48 PMOh thanks, for proving my point. it take SPD so it's a multiplicator of your weapon speed lol (3.9 or 4.2). Except that when your reach the swing speed, because the proc is dependant of the SPD of the WEAPON, the 4.2 will proc more often when you reach the swing cap...
if you take both weapon with an toon that doesn't cap the swing speed, it doesn't change anything (hey it's what I wrote before !) they will proc the same.
Again, no. A particular proc will fire the exact same amount over time no matter what weapon is used. Faster swing speeds do not mean more procs. The point of this exercise is an attempt to explain that procs should be considered a constant and irrelevant when comparing the CD/PF specs in question.
Faster SPD Weapon = more swings per period of time= less chance to proc per swing
Slower SPD Weapon = less swings per same period of time = higher chance to proc per swing
Another tidbit:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=42852#p42852
Noashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 8:03 PMOn uthgard the slower the weapon speed (aka 4.2 or 5.5) the higher %chance of proc, ignoring total swing speed.
That's how it's supposed to be. The only difference is that we still set a % chance per proc and hence we can have procs / weapons with a higher chance than the rest but this entered number is then subject to the proc rate change due to weapon speed.
I don't know what you read, but it exactly what I wrote lol
A dd proc adds to your dps man, it seems that you don't get that. If I proc more, my DPS increase because I do more dmg in the same time lapse... They don't have a proc rate over time.
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 8:08 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 8:03 PMOn uthgard the slower the weapon speed (aka 4.2 or 5.5) the higher %chance of proc, ignoring total swing speed.
That's how it's supposed to be. The only difference is that we still set a % chance per proc and hence we can have procs / weapons with a higher chance than the rest but this entered number is then subject to the proc rate change due to weapon speed.
I don't know what you read, but it exactly what I wrote lol
What you wrote wasA dd proc adds to your dps man, it seems that you don't get that. If I proc more, my DPS increase because I do more dmg in the same time lapse... They don't have a proc rate over time.
Which is incorrect on so many levels, but you keep changing the argument and so I'm done.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 10:30 PMThe weapon speed over time always averages out so that weapons are equal in the amount of procs over time. What people seem to be forgetting here is that the higher your CD spec the greater chance you have of your OFFHAND proccing. That will increase your dps and also increase the amount of proc effects that you can get. Using a 95 DD in both hands as a baseline (including resists) plus the DA from PF, you can expect to see the following in the first 30 seconds of a fight:
46 PF 18 CD: 915 extra damage, for a total of an extra 30 damage per second.
42 PF 44 CD: 962 extra damage, for a total of an extra 32 damage per second.
If you have offhand weapons with procs other than damage, it becomes more significant than mere damage, since the 44 CD spec swings the offhand 22% more than the 18CD spec.
It's entirely possible that I may have missed something in my calculations, so feel free to point it out. These calculations also ignore the effect of spec on damage, since this calculator doesn't even touch base or style damage. It is merely the added damage (from DA and procs) only.
If I have time tomorrow I'll extract my calculator from its main sheet so that you guys can mess around with it and possibly improve upon it.
inoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:25 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 10:30 PMThe weapon speed over time always averages out so that weapons are equal in the amount of procs over time. What people seem to be forgetting here is that the higher your CD spec the greater chance you have of your OFFHAND proccing. That will increase your dps and also increase the amount of proc effects that you can get. Using a 95 DD in both hands as a baseline (including resists) plus the DA from PF, you can expect to see the following in the first 30 seconds of a fight:
46 PF 18 CD: 915 extra damage, for a total of an extra 30 damage per second.
42 PF 44 CD: 962 extra damage, for a total of an extra 32 damage per second.
If you have offhand weapons with procs other than damage, it becomes more significant than mere damage, since the 44 CD spec swings the offhand 22% more than the 18CD spec.
It's entirely possible that I may have missed something in my calculations, so feel free to point it out. These calculations also ignore the effect of spec on damage, since this calculator doesn't even touch base or style damage. It is merely the added damage (from DA and procs) only.
If I have time tomorrow I'll extract my calculator from its main sheet so that you guys can mess around with it and possibly improve upon it.
can you explain why that only applies for the first 30s of a fight? why would that change after 30s?
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:30 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:25 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 7 Apr 2020 10:30 PMThe weapon speed over time always averages out so that weapons are equal in the amount of procs over time. What people seem to be forgetting here is that the higher your CD spec the greater chance you have of your OFFHAND proccing. That will increase your dps and also increase the amount of proc effects that you can get. Using a 95 DD in both hands as a baseline (including resists) plus the DA from PF, you can expect to see the following in the first 30 seconds of a fight:
46 PF 18 CD: 915 extra damage, for a total of an extra 30 damage per second.
42 PF 44 CD: 962 extra damage, for a total of an extra 32 damage per second.
If you have offhand weapons with procs other than damage, it becomes more significant than mere damage, since the 44 CD spec swings the offhand 22% more than the 18CD spec.
It's entirely possible that I may have missed something in my calculations, so feel free to point it out. These calculations also ignore the effect of spec on damage, since this calculator doesn't even touch base or style damage. It is merely the added damage (from DA and procs) only.
If I have time tomorrow I'll extract my calculator from its main sheet so that you guys can mess around with it and possibly improve upon it.
can you explain why that only applies for the first 30s of a fight? why would that change after 30s?
It doesn't apply only to the first 30 seconds of a fight. I did calculations based on the first 30 seconds, the first 60 seconds, and also 120 seconds of a fight, based on the average time of a fight (30-60 seconds) as well as what the /use timer is (2 minutes). Everything of course assumes that every single hit lands (when it actually doesn't) and that the player is uninterrupted (which never happens).
majedorcanie wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:37 AMSpec for my ranger Celt :
35 Stealth
39 Blades
40 PF
30 BOW
26 CD
inoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:35 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:30 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:25 AMcan you explain why that only applies for the first 30s of a fight? why would that change after 30s?
It doesn't apply only to the first 30 seconds of a fight. I did calculations based on the first 30 seconds, the first 60 seconds, and also 120 seconds of a fight, based on the average time of a fight (30-60 seconds) as well as what the /use timer is (2 minutes). Everything of course assumes that every single hit lands (when it actually doesn't) and that the player is uninterrupted (which never happens).
that would mean that proc chances vary, which they do not. also what has that to do with item charge timers? well i could understand that if we assume you would charge a dmg add, then the first 60s would be different but you say 30s that does not make any sense... light me up scotty
sylvynyr wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:41 AMPotential fallacies with some of the presented logic:
1) Assuming proc rates are a flat chance per hit without considering an "over time" aspect
- Proc rates are assigned per proc type and adjusted to weapon SPD, therefore should consider an "over time" component
2) Assuming the offhand "haste effect" has an effect on base DPS (including DA)
- Swing speed is averaged every time both MH and OH swing
- - The MH swings faster, but the OH swings slower by the same amount which should result in the same base DPS
3) Assuming the offhand "haste effect" has an effect on proc rate
- Swing speed is averaged every time both MH and OH swing
- - The MH swings faster, but the OH swings slower by the same amount which should result in the same overall proc rate
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:40 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:35 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:30 AMIt doesn't apply only to the first 30 seconds of a fight. I did calculations based on the first 30 seconds, the first 60 seconds, and also 120 seconds of a fight, based on the average time of a fight (30-60 seconds) as well as what the /use timer is (2 minutes). Everything of course assumes that every single hit lands (when it actually doesn't) and that the player is uninterrupted (which never happens).
that would mean that proc chances vary, which they do not. also what has that to do with item charge timers? well i could understand that if we assume you would charge a dmg add, then the first 60s would be different but you say 30s that does not make any sense... light me up scotty
Proc chances vary according to the listed weapon speed, not how fast you attack with that weapon. A damage add only lasts for 30 seconds, and has a reuse timer of 120 seconds. So, when using an item, you have to decide between things such as a bigger damage add /use, a heal /use, a debuff /use, etc. Fights generally last between 30 and 60 seconds, according to an informal poll I took from alliance members, as well as from my own experience.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:51 AMsylvynyr wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:41 AMPotential fallacies with some of the presented logic:
1) Assuming proc rates are a flat chance per hit without considering an "over time" aspect
- Proc rates are assigned per proc type and adjusted to weapon SPD, therefore should consider an "over time" component
2) Assuming the offhand "haste effect" has an effect on base DPS (including DA)
- Swing speed is averaged every time both MH and OH swing
- - The MH swings faster, but the OH swings slower by the same amount which should result in the same base DPS
3) Assuming the offhand "haste effect" has an effect on proc rate
- Swing speed is averaged every time both MH and OH swing
- - The MH swings faster, but the OH swings slower by the same amount which should result in the same overall proc rate
Agreed. This is why my calculations accounted for an averaged weapon speed (I looked at the fastest and the slowest Blades weapons), while still taking into account offhand swing chance. I definitely put proc damage into the calculations as an over time effect rather than a per-hit effect, which is why I presented my data in 30 second chunks.
I think most people are forgetting points 1) 2) and 3) so thanks for pointing those out.
Interesting little tidbit I noticed when doing a separate calculation: (working from memory here)
Going from a 3.1 offhand to a 2.4 speed offhand netted me an approximately 8% faster mainhand hit, but also meant a 22% drop in offhand damage.
Question: is that 22% drop in damage per offhand hit worth the 8% gain in speed? Does an 8% gain in speed per hit translate to only an 8% increase in damage over time? Or is there some other number I'm missing here?
inoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:04 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:40 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:35 AMthat would mean that proc chances vary, which they do not. also what has that to do with item charge timers? well i could understand that if we assume you would charge a dmg add, then the first 60s would be different but you say 30s that does not make any sense... light me up scotty
Proc chances vary according to the listed weapon speed, not how fast you attack with that weapon. A damage add only lasts for 30 seconds, and has a reuse timer of 120 seconds. So, when using an item, you have to decide between things such as a bigger damage add /use, a heal /use, a debuff /use, etc. Fights generally last between 30 and 60 seconds, according to an informal poll I took from alliance members, as well as from my own experience.
yes according to the weapon speed but not randomly during a fight.. also since we are talking about rangers here, one would assume the ranger uses his own dmg add and no charge. so your 30s thing is irrelevant here. so lets hold for the record: the dmg does not change after 30s
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:31 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:04 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:40 AMProc chances vary according to the listed weapon speed, not how fast you attack with that weapon. A damage add only lasts for 30 seconds, and has a reuse timer of 120 seconds. So, when using an item, you have to decide between things such as a bigger damage add /use, a heal /use, a debuff /use, etc. Fights generally last between 30 and 60 seconds, according to an informal poll I took from alliance members, as well as from my own experience.
yes according to the weapon speed but not randomly during a fight.. also since we are talking about rangers here, one would assume the ranger uses his own dmg add and no charge. so your 30s thing is irrelevant here. so lets hold for the record: the dmg does not change after 30s
The numbers I posted earlier don't assume a damage add charge. If you read it, it assumes the Ranger is using the DA from the PF spec. Damage over 30 seconds is still relevant because that's the average quick fight between two combatants.
inoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:09 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:51 AMsylvynyr wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:41 AMPotential fallacies with some of the presented logic:
1) Assuming proc rates are a flat chance per hit without considering an "over time" aspect
- Proc rates are assigned per proc type and adjusted to weapon SPD, therefore should consider an "over time" component
2) Assuming the offhand "haste effect" has an effect on base DPS (including DA)
- Swing speed is averaged every time both MH and OH swing
- - The MH swings faster, but the OH swings slower by the same amount which should result in the same base DPS
3) Assuming the offhand "haste effect" has an effect on proc rate
- Swing speed is averaged every time both MH and OH swing
- - The MH swings faster, but the OH swings slower by the same amount which should result in the same overall proc rate
Agreed. This is why my calculations accounted for an averaged weapon speed (I looked at the fastest and the slowest Blades weapons), while still taking into account offhand swing chance. I definitely put proc damage into the calculations as an over time effect rather than a per-hit effect, which is why I presented my data in 30 second chunks.
I think most people are forgetting points 1) 2) and 3) so thanks for pointing those out.
Interesting little tidbit I noticed when doing a separate calculation: (working from memory here)
Going from a 3.1 offhand to a 2.4 speed offhand netted me an approximately 8% faster mainhand hit, but also meant a 22% drop in offhand damage.
Question: is that 22% drop in damage per offhand hit worth the 8% gain in speed? Does an 8% gain in speed per hit translate to only an 8% increase in damage over time? Or is there some other number I'm missing here?
yes, the style dmg which adds to every swing. thats why everyone since 20 years is getting a fast offhand and a slow main hand.
there was just one guy who found out that in fact its the total opposite, i dont remember the name... something with c.. cad... cadebrennus! oh damn thats you!
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:36 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:09 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:51 AMAgreed. This is why my calculations accounted for an averaged weapon speed (I looked at the fastest and the slowest Blades weapons), while still taking into account offhand swing chance. I definitely put proc damage into the calculations as an over time effect rather than a per-hit effect, which is why I presented my data in 30 second chunks.
I think most people are forgetting points 1) 2) and 3) so thanks for pointing those out.
Interesting little tidbit I noticed when doing a separate calculation: (working from memory here)
Going from a 3.1 offhand to a 2.4 speed offhand netted me an approximately 8% faster mainhand hit, but also meant a 22% drop in offhand damage.
Question: is that 22% drop in damage per offhand hit worth the 8% gain in speed? Does an 8% gain in speed per hit translate to only an 8% increase in damage over time? Or is there some other number I'm missing here?
yes, the style dmg which adds to every swing. thats why everyone since 20 years is getting a fast offhand and a slow main hand.
there was just one guy who found out that in fact its the total opposite, i dont remember the name... something with c.. cad... cadebrennus! oh damn thats you!
Okay smart-ass, then multiply 0.08 times the style damage and add that to the total damage taking into account the average amount of times the weapon swings and hits over 30 seconds. Or, you could simply up your reading comprehension game, since obviously your reading skill is on par with your PvP skill and RvR skill, since you missed the part where I already said I haven't taken the weapon damage into account regarding these particular calculations in general. The last part of that post was meant for the person I responded to, not a mouth-breather that lacks basic knowledge and manners.
inoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:52 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:36 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:09 PMyes, the style dmg which adds to every swing. thats why everyone since 20 years is getting a fast offhand and a slow main hand.
there was just one guy who found out that in fact its the total opposite, i dont remember the name... something with c.. cad... cadebrennus! oh damn thats you!
Okay smart-ass, then multiply 0.08 times the style damage and add that to the total damage taking into account the average amount of times the weapon swings and hits over 30 seconds. Or, you could simply up your reading comprehension game, since obviously your reading skill is on par with your PvP skill and RvR skill, since you missed the part where I already said I haven't taken the weapon damage into account regarding these particular calculations in general. The last part of that post was meant for the person I responded to, not a mouth-breather that lacks basic knowledge and manners.
talking about manners, calling me a mouth breather LOOOL
its always fun to uncover your bullshit
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 1:35 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:52 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 12:36 PMOkay smart-ass, then multiply 0.08 times the style damage and add that to the total damage taking into account the average amount of times the weapon swings and hits over 30 seconds. Or, you could simply up your reading comprehension game, since obviously your reading skill is on par with your PvP skill and RvR skill, since you missed the part where I already said I haven't taken the weapon damage into account regarding these particular calculations in general. The last part of that post was meant for the person I responded to, not a mouth-breather that lacks basic knowledge and manners.
talking about manners, calling me a mouth breather LOOOL
its always fun to uncover your bullshit
I highly suggest you read the response to your post, just above this post lol
majedorcanie wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 1:33 PM
At 30 i have Penetrating Arrow for Chance to pen. bladeturn for 50% damage.
Horus wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 3:17 PM
Yea, that only affects the Blade Turn casted on others and does not affect the person who casted it or any other self casted bubble...it is pretty worthless.
imweasel wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 6:37 PMWow. Did this go a different route.
The reasons that I am getting confused about spec'ing:
1) Is it better to spec low in blades and high in CD? Or the opposite? How important is it to spec in the base weapon? How much does it or doesn't affect damage variance and weapon skill? Or does one line have better styles/damage?
2) How much PF should you take? I've seen the following suggested - 36, 40, 42, 46 and 50. That's a big difference.
The only thing that been agreed on is Archery. As low as it can go with leftover points only.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:30 pm
The weapon speed over time always averages out so that weapons are equal in the amount of procs over time. What people seem to be forgetting here is that the higher your CD spec the greater chance you have of your OFFHAND proccing. That will increase your dps and also increase the amount of proc effects that you can get. Using a 95 DD in both hands as a baseline (including resists) plus the DA from PF, you can expect to see the following in the first 30 seconds of a fight:
46 PF 18 CD: 915 extra damage, for a total of an extra 30 damage per second.
42 PF 44 CD: 962 extra damage, for a total of an extra 32 damage per second.
If you have offhand weapons with procs other than damage, it becomes more significant than mere damage, since the 44 CD spec swings the offhand 22% more than the 18CD spec.
It's entirely possible that I may have missed something in my calculations, so feel free to point it out. These calculations also ignore the effect of spec on damage, since this calculator doesn't even touch base or style damage. It is merely the added damage (from DA and procs) only.
[\quote]
Basically the added procs from the offhand make up the difference in damage, as well as give you a greater opportunity for procs with effects. 36 PF is the minimum for a respectable Damage Add. 40 PF is for the yellow Dex/Qui buff, and 42 PF is for the purple spec. 46 is for the top tier PF DA, but my opinion is if you're going 46 PF, then you might as well go 48 for the Dex/Qui to boost your defense and your attack speed.
You need to be high RR, like 8 or 9L. I have 33 blade because i have +19 in the skill.imweasel wrote: ↑Wed 8 Apr 2020 9:37 PMWell I'm going to try this spec:
RR3
37 stealth
39 blades
13 bow
20 CD
50 PF
See how it goes...
*Edit to add*
Maybe I'm missing something, but to get CD and PF that high, you are not going to be spec 52 in blades. Not even close. Is that going to seriously affect damage variance and/or weapon skill?
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:59 AMSomething that everyone keeps missing here is that 52 comp Blades isn't the stopping point, it's the starting point for better damage. If you're going to use Blades styles then you need to get your Blades skill as high as possible. The only time you can comfortably rest at 52 comp Blades is if your CD skill is much higher and you're using CD styles for damage.
watbrif wrote: ↑Sat 11 Apr 2020 8:02 PMIf you run with the bg, how much melee power do you actually need?
Stealth 30
Pierce 34
CD 19
Bow 35
PF 48
Any thoughts?
watbrif wrote: ↑Sat 11 Apr 2020 11:39 PM
Yes, I've been thinking about this as well, but I usually don't like basing the spec on the availability of other classes. But I reckon the alternative would be a fairly standard 32/39/18/35/43? I'm not sure if I need the last damage add in a bow-spec leaning build. I'm intrigued by the melee spec, too - but I always assumed it would be fairly useless for BG?
Soinoeth wrote: ↑Sun 5 Apr 2020 12:30 PMlmao, rear chain, when do you get it off as a ranger? like never.... but instead you lose either good buffs or CD
also "in the middle" CD spec i actually better than low CD spec, fact.
as a melee ranger it really depends on spreading your spec points to get the most dmg out of it, maximizing one spec line leads to being weak.
what does that mean?
you want to have:
medium to high weapon spec for better style bonus (39-44)
at least yellow buffs (d/q, dmg add)
as much as possible CD for increased off hand hit chance, which a) increases you swing speed b) off hand hit+dmg add=more dmg
so in the end you have something like
39-44 blade
40-46 pf
23-38 CD
35 stealth
12 bow
if you want to be more bow orientated
39 blade
18 CD
40-46 pf
27-35 bow
35 stealth
gotwqqd wrote: ↑Thu 30 Apr 2020 12:41 PMSoinoeth wrote: ↑Sun 5 Apr 2020 12:30 PMlmao, rear chain, when do you get it off as a ranger? like never.... but instead you lose either good buffs or CD
also "in the middle" CD spec i actually better than low CD spec, fact.
as a melee ranger it really depends on spreading your spec points to get the most dmg out of it, maximizing one spec line leads to being weak.
what does that mean?
you want to have:
medium to high weapon spec for better style bonus (39-44)
at least yellow buffs (d/q, dmg add)
as much as possible CD for increased off hand hit chance, which a) increases you swing speed b) off hand hit+dmg add=more dmg
so in the end you have something like
39-44 blade
40-46 pf
23-38 CD
35 stealth
12 bow
if you want to be more bow orientated
39 blade
18 CD
40-46 pf
27-35 bow
35 stealth
Is 35 bow worth the reduced benefits of pf line?
How about 24 bow/48pf?
I was looking at a damage spreadsheet someone put together showing 25bow had only 25 less damage per shot than 30inoeth wrote: ↑Thu 30 Apr 2020 12:46 PMgotwqqd wrote: ↑Thu 30 Apr 2020 12:41 PMSoinoeth wrote: ↑Sun 5 Apr 2020 12:30 PMlmao, rear chain, when do you get it off as a ranger? like never.... but instead you lose either good buffs or CD
also "in the middle" CD spec i actually better than low CD spec, fact.
as a melee ranger it really depends on spreading your spec points to get the most dmg out of it, maximizing one spec line leads to being weak.
what does that mean?
you want to have:
medium to high weapon spec for better style bonus (39-44)
at least yellow buffs (d/q, dmg add)
as much as possible CD for increased off hand hit chance, which a) increases you swing speed b) off hand hit+dmg add=more dmg
so in the end you have something like
39-44 blade
40-46 pf
23-38 CD
35 stealth
12 bow
if you want to be more bow orientated
39 blade
18 CD
40-46 pf
27-35 bow
35 stealth
Is 35 bow worth the reduced benefits of pf line?
How about 24 bow/48pf?
with 24 you will miss the highest crit shot at 27
48 pf can be an option at lower RR when you dont have the points for augquick/moarcana to reach 250 quickness, later you want the points for extra CD spec
gotwqqd wrote: ↑Thu 30 Apr 2020 3:51 PMI was looking at a damage spreadsheet someone put together showing 25bow had only 25 less damage per shot than 30inoeth wrote: ↑Thu 30 Apr 2020 12:46 PMgotwqqd wrote: ↑Thu 30 Apr 2020 12:41 PMSo
Is 35 bow worth the reduced benefits of pf line?
How about 24 bow/48pf?
with 24 you will miss the highest crit shot at 27
48 pf can be an option at lower RR when you dont have the points for augquick/moarcana to reach 250 quickness, later you want the points for extra CD spec
It was 445/470
daytonchambers wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 12:15 AMIf you're going to spec bow at all I can't suggest 35bow strongly enough. That first rapid-fire is a crazy good tool to have in your setup.
As far as 48pf or higher goes, that's done exclusively for pure sniping builds, or higher for the red Str buff for pure melee builds. IF you want to do a bit of both then 40-43 Pathfinding is as high as you ought to take it.
To have a fighting chance as a hybrid, the base spec is 40PF, 39 mainhand weapon (your choice) 19 CD, 35 bow, 35 stealth. Adjust to your tastes, but that's the starting point.
My 2c
gotwqqd wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 1:09 AMdaytonchambers wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 12:15 AMIf you're going to spec bow at all I can't suggest 35bow strongly enough. That first rapid-fire is a crazy good tool to have in your setup.
As far as 48pf or higher goes, that's done exclusively for pure sniping builds, or higher for the red Str buff for pure melee builds. IF you want to do a bit of both then 40-43 Pathfinding is as high as you ought to take it.
To have a fighting chance as a hybrid, the base spec is 40PF, 39 mainhand weapon (your choice) 19 CD, 35 bow, 35 stealth. Adjust to your tastes, but that's the starting point.
My 2c
I was looking at the DAMAGE differences from 14-45 bow spec
Honestly I’m thinking of sub 18 bow with 48/50 pf
And 44+ slash
Noashakra wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 9:02 AMgotwqqd wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 1:09 AMdaytonchambers wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 12:15 AMIf you're going to spec bow at all I can't suggest 35bow strongly enough. That first rapid-fire is a crazy good tool to have in your setup.
As far as 48pf or higher goes, that's done exclusively for pure sniping builds, or higher for the red Str buff for pure melee builds. IF you want to do a bit of both then 40-43 Pathfinding is as high as you ought to take it.
To have a fighting chance as a hybrid, the base spec is 40PF, 39 mainhand weapon (your choice) 19 CD, 35 bow, 35 stealth. Adjust to your tastes, but that's the starting point.
My 2c
I was looking at the DAMAGE differences from 14-45 bow spec
Honestly I’m thinking of sub 18 bow with 48/50 pf
And 44+ slash
The strength of the ranger is the add dmg and the left and swing (but hitting more left hand you increase you add dammage value). 44 slash doesn't bring enough compared to higher CD.
48/50PF is a waste of points too, 11 strength is like 4 dmg per swing main hand. and the red D/Q is not usefull for blade spec.
imweasel wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 2:13 PMI have tried several specs on my Shar blades ranger. I'm only rr3, but this is where I am at now. I usually run with 1-2 other rangers and respec'ed to
37 stealth
39 blades
27 CD
27 bow
40 PF
I just don't know if this hybrid build is going to work out well or not...
I have thought about lowering PF to 36 and CD to 23 and raising bow to 35 for rapid fire. Any ideas on that?
Noashakra wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 3:23 PMimweasel wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 2:13 PMI have tried several specs on my Shar blades ranger. I'm only rr3, but this is where I am at now. I usually run with 1-2 other rangers and respec'ed to
37 stealth
39 blades
27 CD
27 bow
40 PF
I just don't know if this hybrid build is going to work out well or not...
I have thought about lowering PF to 36 and CD to 23 and raising bow to 35 for rapid fire. Any ideas on that?
It's a good spec at low rr
the firstimweasel wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 3:41 PMNoashakra wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 3:23 PMimweasel wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 2:13 PMI have tried several specs on my Shar blades ranger. I'm only rr3, but this is where I am at now. I usually run with 1-2 other rangers and respec'ed to
37 stealth
39 blades
27 CD
27 bow
40 PF
I just don't know if this hybrid build is going to work out well or not...
I have thought about lowering PF to 36 and CD to 23 and raising bow to 35 for rapid fire. Any ideas on that?
It's a good spec at low rr
Which one? The 37/39/27/27/40? Or the second one where I go pf down to 37, CD down to 23 and bumping how to 35?
imweasel wrote: ↑Fri 1 May 2020 2:13 PMI have tried several specs on my Shar blades ranger. I'm only rr3, but this is where I am at now. I usually run with 1-2 other rangers and respec'ed to
37 stealth
39 blades
27 CD
27 bow
40 PF
I just don't know if this hybrid build is going to work out well or not...
I have thought about lowering PF to 36 and CD to 23 and raising bow to 35 for rapid fire. Any ideas on that?
Raagnarr wrote: ↑Mon 4 May 2020 7:41 AM"If you want to spend RP to my mid toons"
Please clarify, as this makes zero sense.
Tupacalipse wrote: ↑Mon 4 May 2020 5:18 PM-rangers (unlike NS's), get access to Broodmothers Fang, the slowest 1h available (4.3) and has energy DoT. So DoT stacking with BMF + crafted OH becomes a thing.
Tupacalipse wrote: ↑Mon 4 May 2020 5:18 PMEveryone runs slash. For the reasons mentioned above (damage table in stealth wars, ASR @39slash, d/q debuff weap stacked with the ASR).
By far the stronger in stealth vs stealth.
However, to plays devil's advocate:
-thrust gives more WS to all rangers, especially luri
-synergizes better with bow, which may become better with upcoming archery changes.
-with archery changes, may see some different specs coming out. If you are taking <39 weapon, the tables are evened a little more.
-rangers (unlike NS's), get access to Broodmothers Fang, the slowest 1h available (4.3) and has energy DoT. So DoT stacking with BMF + crafted OH becomes a thing.
-thrust offers the greatest difference between MH/OH speed (4.3/2.3), for highest DW DPS combo (ignoring resist tables).
-5s off-evade stun vs 4s stun in slash
So vs. thrust weak opponents, you would do better. Especially mid thrust weak since they are slash resist (skalds, warrs).
Ranger thrust definitely more arguable than NS thrust (BMF), imo.
So depends how you want to play, but for stealth wars, there isn't a good way to argue for pierce spec. For visi wars, maybe you could argue it.
good luck, they gonna smash you most time.Going from Str 5 to Str 6 made a difference of 2dmg per swing (for 6 points of stats). So 19 is about right.60 str did about 19 dmg per swing wow
inoeth wrote: ↑Tue 5 May 2020 6:12 AMTupacalipse wrote: ↑Mon 4 May 2020 5:18 PMEveryone runs slash. For the reasons mentioned above (damage table in stealth wars, ASR @39slash, d/q debuff weap stacked with the ASR).
By far the stronger in stealth vs stealth.
However, to plays devil's advocate:
-thrust gives more WS to all rangers, especially luri
-synergizes better with bow, which may become better with upcoming archery changes.
-with archery changes, may see some different specs coming out. If you are taking <39 weapon, the tables are evened a little more.
-rangers (unlike NS's), get access to Broodmothers Fang, the slowest 1h available (4.3) and has energy DoT. So DoT stacking with BMF + crafted OH becomes a thing.
-thrust offers the greatest difference between MH/OH speed (4.3/2.3), for highest DW DPS combo (ignoring resist tables).
-5s off-evade stun vs 4s stun in slash
So vs. thrust weak opponents, you would do better. Especially mid thrust weak since they are slash resist (skalds, warrs).
Ranger thrust definitely more arguable than NS thrust (BMF), imo.
So depends how you want to play, but for stealth wars, there isn't a good way to argue for pierce spec. For visi wars, maybe you could argue it.
i heavily doubt that.
asr+dq debuff cuts the swing speed to roughly double the time which means you do double the dmg compared to your opponent. those dot procs you mentioned do around 40 dmg per tick so if both proc you have +80 which is not bad but if you compare that to an average swing of around 150 dmg, this is a joke.
higher WS, wow, does not help you vs your main opponents which are hunters/sb/infi. when the dmg tables are shitty vs them. (you can not ignore that, its tremendous)
attacking mid tanks as ranger
5s stun yeah cool but its getting purged anyway.
what kind of synergy do you mean? i think this aims towards augdex?! you know what, stats do not bring much dmg here. guildy did a dmg test when switching races, turned out 60 str did about 19 dmg per swing wow.
but maybe, just maybe the style overhaul will turn the tide here but as far as the thrust styles stay the same i dont see any valid reason to spec this over blades.
Tupacalipse wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 4:47 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Tue 5 May 2020 6:12 AMTupacalipse wrote: ↑Mon 4 May 2020 5:18 PMEveryone runs slash. For the reasons mentioned above (damage table in stealth wars, ASR @39slash, d/q debuff weap stacked with the ASR).
By far the stronger in stealth vs stealth.
However, to plays devil's advocate:
-thrust gives more WS to all rangers, especially luri
-synergizes better with bow, which may become better with upcoming archery changes.
-with archery changes, may see some different specs coming out. If you are taking <39 weapon, the tables are evened a little more.
-rangers (unlike NS's), get access to Broodmothers Fang, the slowest 1h available (4.3) and has energy DoT. So DoT stacking with BMF + crafted OH becomes a thing.
-thrust offers the greatest difference between MH/OH speed (4.3/2.3), for highest DW DPS combo (ignoring resist tables).
-5s off-evade stun vs 4s stun in slash
So vs. thrust weak opponents, you would do better. Especially mid thrust weak since they are slash resist (skalds, warrs).
Ranger thrust definitely more arguable than NS thrust (BMF), imo.
So depends how you want to play, but for stealth wars, there isn't a good way to argue for pierce spec. For visi wars, maybe you could argue it.
i heavily doubt that.
asr+dq debuff cuts the swing speed to roughly double the time which means you do double the dmg compared to your opponent. those dot procs you mentioned do around 40 dmg per tick so if both proc you have +80 which is not bad but if you compare that to an average swing of around 150 dmg, this is a joke.
higher WS, wow, does not help you vs your main opponents which are hunters/sb/infi. when the dmg tables are shitty vs them. (you can not ignore that, its tremendous)
attacking mid tanks as ranger
5s stun yeah cool but its getting purged anyway.
what kind of synergy do you mean? i think this aims towards augdex?! you know what, stats do not bring much dmg here. guildy did a dmg test when switching races, turned out 60 str did about 19 dmg per swing wow.
but maybe, just maybe the style overhaul will turn the tide here but as far as the thrust styles stay the same i dont see any valid reason to spec this over blades.
Again I'm not saying thrust is better (obviously), but I am making an argument that it's not unreasonable in the right setting / setup.
While I did test effect of AugStats on my hero, I found that each 4 str (aka each Aug level) = ~0.6% DPS gain. BUT it's not only about damage per swing. You also gain increased defensive penetration. Once you are at composite weapon spec, the only thing that affects defensive penetration is Str (or str/dex for pierce). These aren't huge differences with small stat differences but they are real (especially at the extremes) and do have an impact in the RNG game.
The ASR argument is a strong reason to take blades for any class. However, if you have better styles to use (CD styles, CS styles, etc depending class/spec), it can be frustrating wasting all that time trying to land a 2-part chain against a evading/parrying/blocking enemy just so you can get the ASR and move on. If you have nothing better to use anyway then sure it's free and why not.
But for many classes with access to CD, going above composite weapon spec just to get ASR wastes a lot of spec points you could use elsewhere, especially as you get higher RR. Is it worth it? Again, depends on class/spec/setup/opponent.
With regards to DoT procs, they have variance per tick but very consistently do 170-180 dmg per 20 seconds. This can be thought of as a 9.0 DPS damage add that is not affected by enemy defenses but has a 10% to get resisted. Maybe that doesnt sound like a lot but thats a 12-15% DPS gain per stack for most ppl. Get 2 going simultaneously and thats a ~18dps DA / 24-30% DPS gain (hypothetically). I find them particularly effective against defensive opponents since unlike a real DA, evade/parry/block doesn't affect DoTs.
If you are taking a spec that uses 39+ weapon & doesn't rely primarily on CD styles & you're fighting primarily assassins, then yes, blades wins hands down. If you want to use CD styles primarily and want to milk every spec point out of a Wyrd spec and can tolerate doing 5-15% less damage to assassins, you can be that one guy rocking thrusters. Race, weapon, and proc choices can widen or narrow that gap.
TL;DR: there's probably a reason everyone is blades.
~Pollinator
Tupacalipse wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 4:47 AMThe ASR argument is a strong reason to take blades for any class. However, if you have better styles to use (CD styles, CS styles, etc depending class/spec), it can be frustrating wasting all that time trying to land a 2-part chain against a evading/parrying/blocking enemy just so you can get the ASR and move on. If you have nothing better to use anyway then sure it's free and why not.
But for many classes with access to CD, going above composite weapon spec just to get ASR wastes a lot of spec points you could use elsewhere, especially as you get higher RR. Is it worth it? Again, depends on class/spec/setup/opponent.
If you are taking a spec that uses 39+ weapon & doesn't rely primarily on CD styles & you're fighting primarily assassins, then yes, blades wins hands down. If you want to use CD styles primarily and want to milk every spec point out of a Wyrd spec and can tolerate doing 5-15% less damage to assassins, you can be that one guy rocking thrusters. Race, weapon, and proc choices can widen or narrow that gap.
TL;DR: there's probably a reason everyone is blades.
~Pollinator
imweasel wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 1:15 PMSo with the bow changes in, I decided to level my thid luri ranger and try a pure bow spec build (already have a Shar melee).
Currently I am thinking of this.
37 Stealth
45 Bow
48 PF
Rest into melee (probably CD)
So do folks think a pure bow spec can be viable? Or wishful thinking?
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 1:20 PMimweasel wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 1:15 PMSo with the bow changes in, I decided to level my thid luri ranger and try a pure bow spec build (already have a Shar melee).
Currently I am thinking of this.
37 Stealth
45 Bow
48 PF
Rest into melee (probably CD)
So do folks think a pure bow spec can be viable? Or wishful thinking?
My luri ranger is 48pf 50bow 34st.
imweasel wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 1:21 PMdbeattie71 wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 1:20 PMimweasel wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 1:15 PMSo with the bow changes in, I decided to level my thid luri ranger and try a pure bow spec build (already have a Shar melee).
Currently I am thinking of this.
37 Stealth
45 Bow
48 PF
Rest into melee (probably CD)
So do folks think a pure bow spec can be viable? Or wishful thinking?
My luri ranger is 48pf 50bow 34st.
How is that working in rvr?
Saroi wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 8:34 AMTupacalipse wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 4:47 AMThe ASR argument is a strong reason to take blades for any class. However, if you have better styles to use (CD styles, CS styles, etc depending class/spec), it can be frustrating wasting all that time trying to land a 2-part chain against a evading/parrying/blocking enemy just so you can get the ASR and move on. If you have nothing better to use anyway then sure it's free and why not.
But for many classes with access to CD, going above composite weapon spec just to get ASR wastes a lot of spec points you could use elsewhere, especially as you get higher RR. Is it worth it? Again, depends on class/spec/setup/opponent.
If you are taking a spec that uses 39+ weapon & doesn't rely primarily on CD styles & you're fighting primarily assassins, then yes, blades wins hands down. If you want to use CD styles primarily and want to milk every spec point out of a Wyrd spec and can tolerate doing 5-15% less damage to assassins, you can be that one guy rocking thrusters. Race, weapon, and proc choices can widen or narrow that gap.
TL;DR: there's probably a reason everyone is blades.
~Pollinator
No Ranger/NS uses CD Styles on this server except for the Stun. CD also as a 2 part anytime style. So it goes to the same argument you made about the ASR from Blades. Atleast Blade 2 part has an effect with ASR and both Blade styles have a better defense bonus than the CD. CD only has 0.1 Growth Rate more which is not noticable compared to the other effects.
The Sidechain is also pretty useless because both NS/Ranger did not get the growth Rate increase. Only BM has that. For example Supernova, level 50 3rd of Chain has 0,9 Growth Rate on NS/Ranger and 1.25 for BM.
There is absolutely no point in using CD Styles over Blade styles as NS/Ranger. NS have CS and well Rangers only have the option of Blade.
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 1:28 PM
Really well, don’t get caught on the ground by a sneak though lol. Honestly, it’s silly for rvr groups not to have an archer now. Rapid 2 can lock down a few casters that would normally free nuke from a tower. Fight at bolg yesterday was crazy. I think I vollyed arrows for 20 mins and went through 1k arrows.
I know that changes didn’t effect volley damage but I was this spec before the changes. The difference was there were more rangers, I guess, that ground assist easy other.
daytonchambers wrote: ↑Sat 9 May 2020 2:30 AMdbeattie71 wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 1:28 PM
Really well, don’t get caught on the ground by a sneak though lol. Honestly, it’s silly for rvr groups not to have an archer now. Rapid 2 can lock down a few casters that would normally free nuke from a tower. Fight at bolg yesterday was crazy. I think I vollyed arrows for 20 mins and went through 1k arrows.
I know that changes didn’t effect volley damage but I was this spec before the changes. The difference was there were more rangers, I guess, that ground assist easy other.
The biggest problem with a heavy shooters build is that you're kind of trapped in a single location and can't roam around, be it humping a tower humping a keep humping a relic gate etc etc.
That's because if you happen to encounter an enemy sneak in open field with that spec you may as well just sit down cause you're a dead man.
Tupacalipse wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 2:14 PMSaroi wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 8:34 AMTupacalipse wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 4:47 AMThe ASR argument is a strong reason to take blades for any class. However, if you have better styles to use (CD styles, CS styles, etc depending class/spec), it can be frustrating wasting all that time trying to land a 2-part chain against a evading/parrying/blocking enemy just so you can get the ASR and move on. If you have nothing better to use anyway then sure it's free and why not.
But for many classes with access to CD, going above composite weapon spec just to get ASR wastes a lot of spec points you could use elsewhere, especially as you get higher RR. Is it worth it? Again, depends on class/spec/setup/opponent.
If you are taking a spec that uses 39+ weapon & doesn't rely primarily on CD styles & you're fighting primarily assassins, then yes, blades wins hands down. If you want to use CD styles primarily and want to milk every spec point out of a Wyrd spec and can tolerate doing 5-15% less damage to assassins, you can be that one guy rocking thrusters. Race, weapon, and proc choices can widen or narrow that gap.
TL;DR: there's probably a reason everyone is blades.
~Pollinator
No Ranger/NS uses CD Styles on this server except for the Stun. CD also as a 2 part anytime style. So it goes to the same argument you made about the ASR from Blades. Atleast Blade 2 part has an effect with ASR and both Blade styles have a better defense bonus than the CD. CD only has 0.1 Growth Rate more which is not noticable compared to the other effects.
The Sidechain is also pretty useless because both NS/Ranger did not get the growth Rate increase. Only BM has that. For example Supernova, level 50 3rd of Chain has 0,9 Growth Rate on NS/Ranger and 1.25 for BM.
There is absolutely no point in using CD Styles over Blade styles as NS/Ranger. NS have CS and well Rangers only have the option of Blade.
I disagree that theres no point for a CD spec...
The reason no ranger uses CD styles is because everyone wants that 39 blades ASR and then there aren't enough points left to make CD styles worth using over blades.
Some paper daoc theorycrafting maths...
Let's take two specs for comparison of high blades vs high CD:
*Base DPS caps at composite 52
*Each pt in weapon line above composite 52 adds about 0.5% damage / point
*Defense penetration from spec caps at composite 52
*Offhand swing rate increases 0.86% per spec pt CD
*Assume offhand base damage contributes about 35% extra damage when it swings, per styled hit (should be around there or a bit higher for a 4.X/2.X setup).
--> therefore each point in CD adds 35% * 0.86% = +0.3% dmg/pt CD [on average, over time]
50 Blades / 25 CD / 40 PF / 33 stealth / 12 archery
-Access to ASR, uses Blades styles
34 Weapon / 44 CD / 40 PF / 33 stealth / 12 archery
-No ASR
-3% less damage on styled attacks from lower primary weapon spec (0.5% x 6), but 19 higher CD = 5.7% DPS gain from offhand swings (not counting procs)
-Slightly higher CD GR's
-Significantly higher GR's if you master side style
-Net improvement of at least 2.7% DPS, probably closer to 4-5% with the above soft considerations (offhand procs, better CD GRs, side styling,etc).
Most consider the 3-4% DPS loss and lower offhand proc rate worth the 30% ASR.
There are obviously lots of ranger specs, some with higher PF/lower CD etc -- you can do the math with them all and it should work out similarly that (when possible), advanced weapon line Wyrd specs nets more DPS. The problem rangers face is having to spread their points so thinly that it's not always possible to get both composite weapon and CD high enough to make the styles worth using.
Saroi wrote: ↑Sat 9 May 2020 10:32 AMTupacalipse wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 2:14 PMSaroi wrote: ↑Fri 8 May 2020 8:34 AMNo Ranger/NS uses CD Styles on this server except for the Stun. CD also as a 2 part anytime style. So it goes to the same argument you made about the ASR from Blades. Atleast Blade 2 part has an effect with ASR and both Blade styles have a better defense bonus than the CD. CD only has 0.1 Growth Rate more which is not noticable compared to the other effects.
The Sidechain is also pretty useless because both NS/Ranger did not get the growth Rate increase. Only BM has that. For example Supernova, level 50 3rd of Chain has 0,9 Growth Rate on NS/Ranger and 1.25 for BM.
There is absolutely no point in using CD Styles over Blade styles as NS/Ranger. NS have CS and well Rangers only have the option of Blade.
I disagree that theres no point for a CD spec...
The reason no ranger uses CD styles is because everyone wants that 39 blades ASR and then there aren't enough points left to make CD styles worth using over blades.
Some paper daoc theorycrafting maths...
Let's take two specs for comparison of high blades vs high CD:
*Base DPS caps at composite 52
*Each pt in weapon line above composite 52 adds about 0.5% damage / point
*Defense penetration from spec caps at composite 52
*Offhand swing rate increases 0.86% per spec pt CD
*Assume offhand base damage contributes about 35% extra damage when it swings, per styled hit (should be around there or a bit higher for a 4.X/2.X setup).
--> therefore each point in CD adds 35% * 0.86% = +0.3% dmg/pt CD [on average, over time]
50 Blades / 25 CD / 40 PF / 33 stealth / 12 archery
-Access to ASR, uses Blades styles
34 Weapon / 44 CD / 40 PF / 33 stealth / 12 archery
-No ASR
-3% less damage on styled attacks from lower primary weapon spec (0.5% x 6), but 19 higher CD = 5.7% DPS gain from offhand swings (not counting procs)
-Slightly higher CD GR's
-Significantly higher GR's if you master side style
-Net improvement of at least 2.7% DPS, probably closer to 4-5% with the above soft considerations (offhand procs, better CD GRs, side styling,etc).
Most consider the 3-4% DPS loss and lower offhand proc rate worth the 30% ASR.
There are obviously lots of ranger specs, some with higher PF/lower CD etc -- you can do the math with them all and it should work out similarly that (when possible), advanced weapon line Wyrd specs nets more DPS. The problem rangers face is having to spread their points so thinly that it's not always possible to get both composite weapon and CD high enough to make the styles worth using.
You wrote about paper daoc. All sounds good on Paper.
About Side chain: If you are talking about walkthrough etc. to land other attacks, you would have to compare the damage with the Backstyle from Blades which has the highest GR. Can't compare reactional CD styles with Anytimer from Blades. In your first spec you have 50 Blades, then the 2 part backchain does more damage. So here you have more Mainhand/Styledamage compared to CD.
Blade Back: 0.77 Growth, Followup: 0.99 Growth
CD Side: 0.68 Growth, Followup: 0.88 Growth
Also 3part Evadechain of Blades have a higher GR than 3part Evadechain of CD. So the Statement about significantly higher GR(Side style) is not true.
I would agree with you if Hib had 0,77/1.00/1.25 on the Sidechain like BM does. I have tested higher CD myself and came to the conclusion it is not worth it. The fact that nobody goes high CD also shows other have tried it and came to the same conclusion. Blade isn't all about the ASR style, it is simply because CD doesn't offer any shown higher damage, especially consistant damage.
inoeth wrote: ↑Sun 10 May 2020 1:26 PMactually this discussion led me to respec my ranger to:
44CD
39blade
35st
31pf
17bow
and well .... im ripping, feels so much smoother now, almost like playing a SB but with better dmg
very high rr assassins are still hard but for same rr assasins i dont even need any active ra most time
daytonchambers wrote: ↑Sun 10 May 2020 2:16 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Sun 10 May 2020 1:26 PMactually this discussion led me to respec my ranger to:
44CD
39blade
35st
31pf
17bow
and well .... im ripping, feels so much smoother now, almost like playing a SB but with better dmg
very high rr assassins are still hard but for same rr assasins i dont even need any active ra most time
Why 17 bow with the scraps? could have pushed CD up another lv to 45 and ended up with 45cd, 39blade, 35stealth, 31pf, 15bow. With 0pts remaining =D
https://playphoenix.online/charplan/?class=Ranger&level=50&realmRank=30&view=skills&s22=31&s31=35&s51=45&s58=15&s78=39
Noashakra wrote: ↑Sat 9 May 2020 8:38 AMdon't blieve they will add the proc. The dmg are good enough.
Now it's time to do somthing against engage/bloc/parry/evade vs ranged weapons
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑Mon 11 May 2020 6:17 AMNoashakra wrote: ↑Sat 9 May 2020 8:38 AMdon't blieve they will add the proc. The dmg are good enough.
Now it's time to do somthing against engage/bloc/parry/evade vs ranged weapons
They already "slightly" nerfed archery already. So yes, give us the proc, give us snare / dots like on live, otherwise we will end up having to spec 50 bow to get 100 more dmg on CS and 50 on normal shots soon, which means everyone will go back to melee rangers / hunters to make sins rejoice.
I mean let's face it archery is a disappointment as it is atm. Only spec line where you get to 50 and only have 2 skills on your action bar (3rd being your bow from inv). Give us a pinning shot - 99% snare for 10s, give us multishot (put a CD on it like 10-15s), give us a true rapid fire that fires 10 arrows at your target in like 2 seconds with same penalty of current RF (50% dmg of normal arrows). Give us a silencing shot for 3-5s with 20s cd instead of NS / disease procs.
The server continues to move far away from classic daoc, and it won't go near live, so why not at least make something good out of it?
Cheers <3
inoeth wrote: ↑Mon 11 May 2020 6:47 AMAnelyn77 wrote: ↑Mon 11 May 2020 6:17 AMNoashakra wrote: ↑Sat 9 May 2020 8:38 AMdon't blieve they will add the proc. The dmg are good enough.
Now it's time to do somthing against engage/bloc/parry/evade vs ranged weapons
They already "slightly" nerfed archery already. So yes, give us the proc, give us snare / dots like on live, otherwise we will end up having to spec 50 bow to get 100 more dmg on CS and 50 on normal shots soon, which means everyone will go back to melee rangers / hunters to make sins rejoice.
I mean let's face it archery is a disappointment as it is atm. Only spec line where you get to 50 and only have 2 skills on your action bar (3rd being your bow from inv). Give us a pinning shot - 99% snare for 10s, give us multishot (put a CD on it like 10-15s), give us a true rapid fire that fires 10 arrows at your target in like 2 seconds with same penalty of current RF (50% dmg of normal arrows). Give us a silencing shot for 3-5s with 20s cd instead of NS / disease procs.
The server continues to move far away from classic daoc, and it won't go near live, so why not at least make something good out of it?
Cheers <3
"disappointment" lul! fireing for 400 normal and 900+ crit very disappointing...
dude in what world do you live in?
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑Mon 11 May 2020 6:58 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 11 May 2020 6:47 AMAnelyn77 wrote: ↑Mon 11 May 2020 6:17 AMThey already "slightly" nerfed archery already. So yes, give us the proc, give us snare / dots like on live, otherwise we will end up having to spec 50 bow to get 100 more dmg on CS and 50 on normal shots soon, which means everyone will go back to melee rangers / hunters to make sins rejoice.
I mean let's face it archery is a disappointment as it is atm. Only spec line where you get to 50 and only have 2 skills on your action bar (3rd being your bow from inv). Give us a pinning shot - 99% snare for 10s, give us multishot (put a CD on it like 10-15s), give us a true rapid fire that fires 10 arrows at your target in like 2 seconds with same penalty of current RF (50% dmg of normal arrows). Give us a silencing shot for 3-5s with 20s cd instead of NS / disease procs.
The server continues to move far away from classic daoc, and it won't go near live, so why not at least make something good out of it?
Cheers <3
"disappointment" lul! fireing for 400 normal and 900+ crit very disappointing...
dude in what world do you live in?
I was talking about something else, yet you turned it into dmg numbers. So 400 and 900 is too high, sure, what would you want those numbers to be 200 and 450? 300 and 600? Sure, just give more shots to archers if you tone damage down further, give a pinning shot at 42 bow so that melee archers can't get it, give a dot with good delve at 47 bow etc.
inoeth wrote: ↑Mon 11 May 2020 9:29 AMafaik there is a cap, gruenes said the cap is untouched they just adjusted the scaling from spec.
ofc im talking about 300 600 dmg for high RR, lowers can be around 250 500 so basicly revert the recent archer change^^
instead give the tools that were initially there like, again, sure shot, camuflage and some kind of higher range stealth detection (mos or true sight)
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑Mon 11 May 2020 11:49 AMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 11 May 2020 9:29 AMafaik there is a cap, gruenes said the cap is untouched they just adjusted the scaling from spec.
ofc im talking about 300 600 dmg for high RR, lowers can be around 250 500 so basicly revert the recent archer change^^
instead give the tools that were initially there like, again, sure shot, camuflage and some kind of higher range stealth detection (mos or true sight)
Aren't you afraid that the higher stealth detection will further encourage stealth hunting? Small or even stealth zergs could actively do only that if you can see them from 1k range at mach 5?
Let's wait and see how this whole stealth nerf works out in next couple days and where the devs wanna go from there
Siouxsie wrote: ↑Fri 15 May 2020 10:17 PMThanks, rangers for destroying any chance we had at decent archery damage.
70 rangers logged on.. all cookie cutter bow spec ones.
I really had my hopes up that archery would stay buffed but you had to ruin things with your assisted volleys and other BS nonsense camping the keeps.
Now you've ruined it for all us archers.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Fri 15 May 2020 8:49 PMI can see PF actually being useful now with a Sniper build, if only to push the Dex/Qui a bit higher than everyone else that's pot buffed. That being said I think Scouts should have something to compare to it.
watbrif wrote: ↑Sun 17 May 2020 1:03 AMTo build on another thread in the forum: are there any rangers out there who completely disregard stealth (apart from speccing up to safe fall) for a bg play style? This would of course eliminate your role as a scout, but I suppose this would allow you to interrupt, deal damage and not be completely useless when peeling and being forced into melee. Do people spec like that?
watbrif wrote: ↑Sun 17 May 2020 1:03 AMTo build on another thread in the forum: are there any rangers out there who completely disregard stealth (apart from speccing up to safe fall) for a bg play style? This would of course eliminate your role as a scout, but I suppose this would allow you to interrupt, deal damage and not be completely useless when peeling and being forced into melee. Do people spec like that?
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Sun 17 May 2020 6:03 AMwatbrif wrote: ↑Sun 17 May 2020 1:03 AMTo build on another thread in the forum: are there any rangers out there who completely disregard stealth (apart from speccing up to safe fall) for a bg play style? This would of course eliminate your role as a scout, but I suppose this would allow you to interrupt, deal damage and not be completely useless when peeling and being forced into melee. Do people spec like that?
Visi Ranger spec. I've been doing it since 2013, and yes it works very well. I can still hide from Visi characters and groups no problem, and don't bother to hide from other Stealthers since they're going to find you regardless of Stealth spec.
imweasel wrote: ↑Sun 17 May 2020 5:05 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Sun 17 May 2020 6:03 AMwatbrif wrote: ↑Sun 17 May 2020 1:03 AMTo build on another thread in the forum: are there any rangers out there who completely disregard stealth (apart from speccing up to safe fall) for a bg play style? This would of course eliminate your role as a scout, but I suppose this would allow you to interrupt, deal damage and not be completely useless when peeling and being forced into melee. Do people spec like that?
Visi Ranger spec. I've been doing it since 2013, and yes it works very well. I can still hide from Visi characters and groups no problem, and don't bother to hide from other Stealthers since they're going to find you regardless of Stealth spec.
What is a visi ranger spec?
inoeth wrote: ↑Mon 18 May 2020 6:14 AM
no, im not obsessed with you its just you post so much bullshit in the threads im reading and writing in.
why are you so obsessed with telling ppl bullshit and comparing apples with pears?
btw i really try hard to not answer you anymore, would be great if you just did the same
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Mon 18 May 2020 1:24 PMinoeth wrote: ↑Mon 18 May 2020 6:14 AM
no, im not obsessed with you its just you post so much bullshit in the threads im reading and writing in.
why are you so obsessed with telling ppl bullshit and comparing apples with pears?
btw i really try hard to not answer you anymore, would be great if you just did the same
So when I post something, say where the video is, you still say I'm saying some bullshit? Tell me and the world what exactly I said that was wrong in my post.
Sorry dude, you can't take the high ground all of a sudden when you've been operating from the gutter the whole time.
Freakzilla wrote: ↑Sun 13 Sep 2020 7:15 AMLuri. 40 bow, 40 pf, 39 blades, 35 stealth. I use a shield, but maybe I shouldn't...dunno, I don't have enough experience. My bow damage seems to suck. Not sure about ra path either. I understand that one of the ra increases buffs,. Could use pointers. I don't really know anyone on the server...would be nice to hang with some cool people to show me the ropes.
I think sniper spec 50ish bow 4x pf (highest dex/quick and da) is pretty powerfulasnusia wrote: ↑Sun 13 Sep 2020 8:26 AMAnyone know the acctual difference between 35, 40, 45 and 50 bow?
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Mon 14 Sep 2020 8:46 AMinoeth=pr0 troller
If you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation then stay silent. Let people discuss the topic without your flaming and trolling.
gotwqqd wrote: ↑Mon 14 Sep 2020 9:31 AMI think sniper spec 50ish bow 4x pf (highest dex/quick and da) is pretty powerfulasnusia wrote: ↑Sun 13 Sep 2020 8:26 AMAnyone know the acctual difference between 35, 40, 45 and 50 bow?
Could be hib having lots of relics
But even as a minstrel with chain I’m pretty much dead before I can react(latency?) as I’ll have less than 20% hits after first couple shots when correct arrow used
IdiamVonGawaine wrote: ↑Tue 15 Sep 2020 1:28 AMSub-RR 5 Lurikeen
50 bow, 48 pf, 34 stealth, insignificant amounts of melee
Tried a bunch of different levels of bow/melee before my /24 hours elapsed once I hit 50 on my ranger. I found that at low RR his melee was awful regardless of spec, and his bow damage was equally junk, so I went all in on bow. With that much bow and PF he can stand a pretty decent chance at killing solo low HP classes that don't have shields, healer support, or have crappy templates, but anything grouped with a healer not AFK will just run away to safety unless somebody assists me.
If caught in melee he's basically free RP's.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Tue 15 Sep 2020 6:17 AMThat being said have you considered dropping Archery to 45 and getting 18 CD 10 Blades?
asnusia wrote: ↑Fri 18 Sep 2020 9:11 AMCan work a setup like this for a hybrid ranger for soloing?
race: lurikeen
stat: +10str, dex, qui
rr5 spec: 47bow, 35stealth, 39blade, 29cd, 10path (at rr7 50bow, 33 stealth)
ra: quick 3 (cap quickness to 250) ip3, purge3, tough3, lw, tireless
armor: galla chest + full abla
charge: DA to use in combat so no legion heal
If i use a da charge after aim an arrow the shot is rupted?
This is getting silly... I feel we're trapped in a never-ending melee/bow spec loop (or one could just stop playing ranger, since this seems to be the ultimate goal of the recent changes).
watbrif wrote: ↑Tue 3 Nov 2020 2:35 PMSpeaking of melee ranger: given the announced changes, will people now ditch the bow line again?
Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 4 Nov 2020 7:57 AMDidn't you just claim a few days ago that you don't play ranger, but your merc?
So you ditched your mercenary because the unused ranger got nerfed to level a melee hunter that didn't get changed and is just like they have been for months?
well...sorry, that sounds completely made up to push a point
Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 4 Nov 2020 7:57 AMDidn't you just claim a few days ago that you don't play ranger, but your merc?
So you ditched your mercenary because the unused ranger got nerfed to level a melee hunter that didn't get changed and is just like they have been for months?
well...sorry, that sounds completely made up to push a point
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