[Feedback] Demon Breach Event

Started 14 Apr 2020
by Centenario
in PvE
Pleasantly surprised that the dev team managed to pull out a well-working groupfinder system for DAoC, congrats!
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 14 Apr 2020 2:56 AM
It will be used for other pve events after some changes to it, examples of those changes:
- confirmation when a group is supposed to be built to avoid afk people
- filling up again when someone left
- some restrictions on the built groups like kicking only possible after a vote and stuff like that
- instead of a single min/max level for the whole group have some tighter level range for dds / tanks and a more relaxed level range for support classes
But there are currently no plans to use it outside of events.

1. Event Waiting Area:
Lots of people in one place spamming sound effects and graphic effects and jumping around with cloaks. I'd rather avoid that to have less strain on out-of-shape computers/connections.

2. Event Fighting Arena:
Id like if the full group could be sent to one of 8 possible arena, with different spawn points and feel (Pict Invasion, Roman Skeleton Centurions Estate, Valhalla Valkyries Invasion, Banshees and Vampires Invasion, etc...)
Id like that mobs are spread into different families (beast/humanoids/undeads/dragons/etc...)
Id like that mobs can start spawning with different classes at wave 5 will have 1 archery class, at wave 10 one Healer class, etc...

3. Event Frequency:
Id like the event to come for 1 week per month, since some people work on weekend, etc... Or give players invitation tokens, tradeable, that can be dropped on mobs during the event. Or give each character 10 invitations token per event session, untradeable, to be used during that week.

4. Mob Strength vs Player:
I have played a little of all groups: low level, high level, lots of CC, no CC at all, PBAOE, AOE dot kitting, stealth group. The event was very different for each group compos.
At low level you couldnt expect to go past wave 6, since CC didnt last long enough to be able to DPS mobs one by one. Heals couldnt keep tanks up they were taking too large hits, their block rate is very low too.
Without CC / or only single roots, it is also impossible to go very far, let's say the higher lvl can get to wave 8 max.
With CC and low DPS, you don't get very far either, maybe you got 3 mezzers and no single target or pbaoe. You just cant handle the DPS fast enough to continue very far, people usually disband at any sign of death around wave 6.
With AoE dot, you can easily reach wave 20+ with people sitting at merchants.
How to remedy this? TBD.

5. Group Level and Composition
Minimum level 10 for healers for rez ability.
Need 1 Main Tank with shield spec and taunt needs to be highest level.
Need 1 Guard bot up to 5 level below tank
Need 1 main heal up to 7 level below tank(healer/shaman/druid/cleric)
Need 1 support heal up to 7 level below tank(bard/warden/friar)
Need 1 AoE Mezzer up to 2 level below tank(SorcMind/HealerPac/BardMusic/SpiritMasterDarkness lvl 21+)
Need 1 Stealther
Need 2 Any
I would simply break aoe dot somehow, to prevent people from just looking for that type of group, they can level easily like this in the regular exp areas.

6. Wave timers and compositions
[IN PROGRESS]

7. Rate of Exp
I felt that the exp was correct:
- For a pbaoe/healer it is annoying to have to find a new group and start from scratch every 20minutes, usually they can farm constantly for 5 hours.
- For social classes its great to finally be able to have on-par exp rates.
I would not decrease or increase exp rates.

8. Social Experience
I feel that the waiting area could be improved, maybe some quests, some decors, some task item NPCs, I don't know what are the worldbuild possibilities.

9. Gameplay Experience
Finally we get to see some of the full potential of some classes like minstrel in PvE (except w/o pet). Usually its been mindless pull and burst gameplay, but here people get to train their targeting, CCing and assisting. Melees get to use their special styles, we even see some DPS tank with 2-handers.
Tue 14 Apr 2020 2:19 PM by LegalEagle52
Maybe some sort of penalty for disbanding early. Nothing too draconian but maybe like a short time out from being able to be placed in a new group. Just something to make people think twice about disbanding without sticking them too hard for wanting a better group.
Tue 14 Apr 2020 2:26 PM by Razur Ur
LegalEagle52 wrote:
Tue 14 Apr 2020 2:19 PM
Maybe some sort of penalty for disbanding early. Nothing too draconian but maybe like a short time out from being able to be placed in a new group. Just something to make people think twice about disbanding without sticking them too hard for wanting a better group.

Why? i disband only if my life was under 10% and two or more players in my group was dead. why i not disband before iam died and get exp lost? give by this
event no exp and gold lost and nobody disband earlier the group and only then can you demand a penality!!!
Tue 14 Apr 2020 3:11 PM by inoeth
casting noises? cloaks? graphic effects? for real? maybe update your 2005 pc and turn stuff off ingame?!
Tue 14 Apr 2020 3:24 PM by kedelin
The only thing I would change is no premade groups
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:24 AM by Jingo NZ
The group finder is very clever and matched pretty quickly when there were no premades.

The event lost some charm once the prevalent dot and kite strategy emerged.
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:55 AM by gruenesschaf
Jingo NZ wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:24 AM
The event lost some charm once the prevalent dot and kite strategy emerged.

You can be pretty sure that this will not be possible in the next one, at the same time the waves won't just increase the mob count by 1 each time but instead there will be some other increase in their scaling / difficulty.
The intention has been to somewhat regularly build new groups aka dieing somewhat quickly (most groups should struggle around wave 7/8, quite a few making it to 12 and close to nobody reaching 15 or beyond).
Wed 15 Apr 2020 8:56 AM by Chihuahua
I think the premade should be removed, since at every comp people will figure out the best comp and try to build around it.

I totally agree, that aoe dot kiting should not be possible, we figured it out already in the first group with the raid and made it to Wave 37 - then everyone was 50 (we started at 44 and took around 2,5hours).

First waves we CC'd (upto like wave 8-10) - we had mezz & root
Then we continued similarly but 1-3 people hitted the mobs that got out of CC and kited them in the centre room, until our group could dps them down 1by1
Then we figured that caba can aoe dot kite them and also figured, that if caba aoe dotted 1 pack of mobs all agroed him - which should be removed from next event.
After that (approx wave 12-13) our BD's went aoe dot also and we just aoe dotted the event until wave 37 with 50% of grp pretty much afk at merchants.

So to sum up:

- Dont allow premade groups
- Mobs need to have abilities (cast etc)
- Remove the mechanic, that all mobs agro one person (who agros first?)

Cheers
Wed 15 Apr 2020 9:08 AM by Razur Ur
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:55 AM
Jingo NZ wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:24 AM
The event lost some charm once the prevalent dot and kite strategy emerged.

You can be pretty sure that this will not be possible in the next one, at the same time the waves won't just increase the mob count by 1 each time but instead there will be some other increase in their scaling / difficulty.
The intention has been to somewhat regularly build new groups aka dieing somewhat quickly (most groups should struggle around wave 7/8, quite a few making it to 12 and close to nobody reaching 15 or beyond).

why not? another was this event not rly funny! most time was the groupsetup terrible and after wave 5 or 6 died the most player because of three scout/ranger/hunters
in the group or not guarder. if this with kite not more possible can i do powerleveling in normal pvm!
Wed 15 Apr 2020 4:20 PM by Azrael
Razur Ur wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 9:08 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:55 AM
Jingo NZ wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:24 AM
The event lost some charm once the prevalent dot and kite strategy emerged.

You can be pretty sure that this will not be possible in the next one, at the same time the waves won't just increase the mob count by 1 each time but instead there will be some other increase in their scaling / difficulty.
The intention has been to somewhat regularly build new groups aka dieing somewhat quickly (most groups should struggle around wave 7/8, quite a few making it to 12 and close to nobody reaching 15 or beyond).

why not? another was this event not rly funny! most time was the groupsetup terrible and after wave 5 or 6 died the most player because of three scout/ranger/hunters
in the group or not guarder. if this with kite not more possible can i do powerleveling in normal pvm!

I dunno but I doubt the intention was that people can powerlevel multiple toons. Instead they should have some crazy group composition (polearms with cele?) which they usually do not get and have some... "fun"... or something like that?

edit: I think it is funny how you complain about dying on wave 5 or 6 when schaf already mentioned you should struggle at 7/8.
Wed 15 Apr 2020 10:29 PM by Centenario
I would like to see groupfinder implemented on instanced dungeons:
on alb:
- mithra
- keltoi
- tepok
- cardova
- barrows

And have some kind of quest to go kill the dungeon boss and reward great exp.
That would have a little more flavour than demon breach.
Sat 18 Apr 2020 8:07 PM by rogueyak
I thought the event was overall really great, and the groupfinder was impressive. Based on this event I would consider giving the mobs something like you did with gwyd beach so they can't be kited indefinitely. It really made aoe dot and kiting the ONLY group setup in a lot of peoples minds. I even had some people straight up disband if there was no aoe dotter in the group because 'it wouldn't work'. I feel like the disparity between aoe dot groups being able to reach wave 50 and non aoe dot groups only getting to 15ish is big enough that something should be done to make people not so reliant on having an aoe dotter in the group.

If not making them unkitable perhaps give a bonus xp for killing waves faster or something. Aoe dotting was the safe route but was actually quite slow compared to tank/pbae settup that i think the groupfinder was built around.
Tue 21 Apr 2020 3:10 PM by Kahmi
Centenario wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 10:29 PM
I would like to see groupfinder implemented on instanced dungeons:
on alb:
- mithra
- keltoi
- tepok
- cardova
- barrows

And have some kind of quest to go kill the dungeon boss and reward great exp.
That would have a little more flavour than demon breach.

I like that idea
Tue 21 Apr 2020 11:12 PM by howjaabah
Centenario wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 10:29 PM
I would like to see groupfinder implemented on instanced dungeons:
on alb:
- mithra
- keltoi
- tepok
- cardova
- barrows

And have some kind of quest to go kill the dungeon boss and reward great exp.
That would have a little more flavour than demon breach.

I second this idea. It would be great for some nostalgia and not as abusable as the dot group (as much as I like my free 50). Every group would be able to compete and could Xp with melee groups, PBAE, CC groups. Add a timer, increase the level of all the mobs in the dungeon and the faster the group clears the dungeon the bigger the xp reward.
Thu 23 Apr 2020 7:57 PM by dougrighteous1
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:55 AM
Jingo NZ wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:24 AM
The event lost some charm once the prevalent dot and kite strategy emerged.

You can be pretty sure that this will not be possible in the next one, at the same time the waves won't just increase the mob count by 1 each time but instead there will be some other increase in their scaling / difficulty.
The intention has been to somewhat regularly build new groups aka dieing somewhat quickly (most groups should struggle around wave 7/8, quite a few making it to 12 and close to nobody reaching 15 or beyond).

then xp needs to be ramped up quite a shitload then.
The xp is only worth it past wave 11, and that's when it's worth. You still have to make up for the previous 30 minutes of shitty xp, and 15 minutes of waiting for a group.
If you don't, then people are just going to abandon the event, which is what happened anyway. The first 3 wave xp were worth like less than 1 yellow, and in a lot of cases, some groups didnt make it past wave 4 which was equivalent to a couple yellows in 45 minutes.
Sun 26 Apr 2020 9:39 AM by watbrif
dougrighteous1 wrote:
Thu 23 Apr 2020 7:57 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:55 AM
Jingo NZ wrote:
Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:24 AM
The event lost some charm once the prevalent dot and kite strategy emerged.

You can be pretty sure that this will not be possible in the next one, at the same time the waves won't just increase the mob count by 1 each time but instead there will be some other increase in their scaling / difficulty.
The intention has been to somewhat regularly build new groups aka dieing somewhat quickly (most groups should struggle around wave 7/8, quite a few making it to 12 and close to nobody reaching 15 or beyond).

then xp needs to be ramped up quite a shitload then.
The xp is only worth it past wave 11, and that's when it's worth. You still have to make up for the previous 30 minutes of shitty xp, and 15 minutes of waiting for a group.
If you don't, then people are just going to abandon the event, which is what happened anyway. The first 3 wave xp were worth like less than 1 yellow, and in a lot of cases, some groups didnt make it past wave 4 which was equivalent to a couple yellows in 45 minutes.

If you expect meta, meta everywhere and at anytime, then yes. I barely have time for group play so getting a guaranteed group and wiping after wave 8 on a regular basis (but doing this a few times) actually made for decent xp. The only people who spoilt it were the usual instant quitters because the group setup wasn't perfect enough....
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