Bard Balance - Phoenix Freeshard

I just had the best idea ever:

Since we ruined Bard as a support class we could give him hero dmg table and 2nd dd!

Seriously, think about it, Bard has to go to close range now to be useful for interrupt, so why not boost his melee/ close range rupt potential after the hard nerf for his enemy backline interrupt messing with Bards positioning.

Besides restoring balance between the 3 cc classes and Minst/Bard that would also add more 1vx 1v1 potential to the Bard.

Wed 22 Apr 2020 9:53 PM by Riac

lol someone mad.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:43 AM by Razur Ur

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 9:53 PM
lol someone mad.

with bard you have no chance to win a cast mezz vs a albcaster group where running with two sorc and two cabby´s all four caster have 2300 range spell with
nearsight and amnesia to rupt the bard ^_^ and bard have only 2k insta cast amnesia :-D. my opinion give bard 2300 cast amnesia or give ench ns and
menta cast amnesia with 2300 range.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 7:28 AM by bigne88

Bard and menta especially, now are broken...wtf.
This time devs went too far with custom stuff.
Hib caster setup, is even more broken.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:09 AM by Sepplord

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 9:53 PM
lol someone mad.

with bard you have no chance to win a cast mezz vs a albcaster group where running with two sorc and two cabby´s all four caster have 2300 range spell with
nearsight and amnesia to rupt the bard ^_^ and bard have only 2k insta cast amnesia :-D. my opinion give bard 2300 cast amnesia or give ench ns and
menta cast amnesia with 2300 range.

Sound reasoning /s

How did bard win against 2sorcs and 2cabas before with 2300amnesia?
And why the hell should ench suddenly get NS?

Yes hibgroups were nerfed slightly...but the argumentation and proposals that are coming now are completely void of reason

Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:22 AM by Razur Ur

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:09 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 9:53 PM
lol someone mad.

with bard you have no chance to win a cast mezz vs a albcaster group where running with two sorc and two cabby´s all four caster have 2300 range spell with
nearsight and amnesia to rupt the bard ^_^ and bard have only 2k insta cast amnesia :-D. my opinion give bard 2300 cast amnesia or give ench ns and
menta cast amnesia with 2300 range.

Sound reasoning /s

How did bard win against 2sorcs and 2cabas before with 2300amnesia?
And why the hell should ench suddenly get NS?

Yes hibgroups were nerfed slightly...but the argumentation and proposals that are coming now are completely void of reason

You dont understand this? Hibernia have now one Char the Eld in Group who can rupt with maximum range 2300 locs that is with the reason for
Hibernia Caster Groups that they must all time rush a Alb Caster Group because 4 Alb caster can save rupting with maximum range from 2300 locs.
And this is a big advantage for Alb Caster Groups vs Hib Caster Groups.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:29 AM by Sepplord

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:22 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:09 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
with bard you have no chance to win a cast mezz vs a albcaster group where running with two sorc and two cabby´s all four caster have 2300 range spell with
nearsight and amnesia to rupt the bard ^_^ and bard have only 2k insta cast amnesia :-D. my opinion give bard 2300 cast amnesia or give ench ns and
menta cast amnesia with 2300 range.

Sound reasoning /s

How did bard win against 2sorcs and 2cabas before with 2300amnesia?
And why the hell should ench suddenly get NS?

Yes hibgroups were nerfed slightly...but the argumentation and proposals that are coming now are completely void of reason

You dont understand this? Hibernia have now one Char the Eld in Group who can rupt with maximum range 2300 locs that is with the reason for
Hibernia Groups that they must all time rush a Alb Caster Group because 4 Alb caster can save rupting with maximum range from 2300 locs.
And this is a big advantage for Alb Caster Groups vs Hib Caster Groups.

Nice dodge of the question...didnt expect anything else to be honest

And i must have missed the patch where they limited groupssetups to one eld max.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:31 AM by Razur Ur

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:29 AM
And i must have missed the patch where they limited groupssetups to one eld max.

Oh i forget for zerger how you is this not interesting ;-)

Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:36 AM by Sepplord

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:31 AM
Oh i forget for zerger how you is this not interessting ;-)

I didnt know you were that bad that my 4 to 6 people visible smallmen felt like a zerg, but thanks for the compliment. We had people call us a fullgrp before but a zerg is taking it to another level of admiration.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:42 AM by Razur Ur

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:36 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:31 AM
Oh i forget for zerger how you is this not interessting ;-)

I didnt know you were that bad that my 4 to 6 people visible smallmen felt like a zerg, but thanks for the compliment. We had people call us a fullgrp before but a zerg is taking it to another level of admiration.

Haha with smallman running behind of the zerg do it not better ;-D, but your dumb ask with why not more as one eld in caster group is a little bit a joke!
In order for a hib caster group to have the same conditions as an alb caster group that runs with 2 sorc and 2 cabbys by default, the hib caster group
needed 4 Elds and this is very unrealistic.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 10:07 AM by Sepplord

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:42 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:36 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 9:31 AM
Oh i forget for zerger how you is this not interessting ;-)

I didnt know you were that bad that my 4 to 6 people visible smallmen felt like a zerg, but thanks for the compliment. We had people call us a fullgrp before but a zerg is taking it to another level of admiration.

Haha with smallman running behind of the zerg do it not better ;-D, but your dumb ask with why not more as one eld in caster group is a little bit a joke!
In order for a hib caster group to have the same conditions as an alb caster group that runs with 2 sorc and 2 cabbys by default, the hib caster group
needed 4 Elds and this is very unrealistic.

We have gone full circle, so...let's try one more time. Maybe you were able to make something up in the meantime and weren't too distracted by being butthurt:

How were hibgrps equal at 2300range before the amnesia change? Maybe if you could settle that it would make more sense why you are suddenly arguing that they need equal control at that range now.

I know the chances are slim, but i have hopes left that you wont retort to made up insults again. There must be something else somewhere inside you and considering the previous comments teason must be getting it's turn any second now

Thu 23 Apr 2020 10:12 AM by Morann

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 9:53 PM
lol someone mad.

with bard you have no chance to win a cast mezz vs a albcaster group where running with two sorc and two cabby´s all four caster have 2300 range spell with
nearsight and amnesia to rupt the bard ^_^ and bard have only 2k insta cast amnesia :-D. my opinion give bard 2300 cast amnesia or give ench ns and
menta cast amnesia with 2300 range.

Bard is strong in smallman - no doubt.
Amnesia - even to 2000 - nerf has a strong impact on the bards gameplay as discussed in the corresponding thread.

When looking at the numbers of groups in the gvg list, it is obvious that hib 8v8 grps need a buff in order to keep a healthy gvg population. Some good groups have moved to the other realms. Hib needs to be buffed here.
I think giving bard a second dd and/or root could be a change in the right direction.

In my opinion a strong hib set up is the general problem right now:

Hib caster setup has been nerved with hp-buff, crit changes, speedbreak and rupt backline with amnesia...

Meele setup either has 2nd bard for demezz and therefore missing dmg/ utility from Eld or you just have one demezzer...which is pretty bad.

There are no viable hybrid setups. Solutions could be giving warden demezz or as suggested ns to ench and amnesia to menta..

That would be a much more helpful change to the server than thinking about changing bleeds or styles...

Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:25 AM by bigne88

Morann wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 10:12 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 9:53 PM
lol someone mad.

with bard you have no chance to win a cast mezz vs a albcaster group where running with two sorc and two cabby´s all four caster have 2300 range spell with
nearsight and amnesia to rupt the bard ^_^ and bard have only 2k insta cast amnesia :-D. my opinion give bard 2300 cast amnesia or give ench ns and
menta cast amnesia with 2300 range.

Bard is strong in smallman - no doubt.
Amnesia - even to 2000 - nerf has a strong impact on the bards gameplay as discussed in the corresponding thread.

When looking at the numbers of groups in the gvg list, it is obvious that hib 8v8 grps need a buff in order to keep a healthy gvg population. Some good groups have moved to the other realms. Hib needs to be buffed here.
I think giving bard a second dd and/or root could be a change in the right direction.

In my opinion a strong hib set up is the general problem right now:

Hib caster setup has been nerved with hp-buff, crit changes, speedbreak and rupt backline with amnesia...

Meele setup either has 2nd bard for demezz and therefore missing dmg/ utility from Eld or you just have one demezzer...which is pretty bad.

There are no viable hybrid setups. Solutions could be giving warden demezz or as suggested ns to ench and amnesia to menta..

That would be a much more helpful change to the server than thinking about changing bleeds or styles...

Im agree with buffing menta with casted amnesia, and give back to bards the standard amnesia.
Just because a couple of crybabies felt to be abused by bards during their smallmen roams, devs should not bite the bait for it...
Why there was the need of changing mincer and menta charm? Why this crit change? And why the damn crap this bard's amnesia change???? Why all this hp buff?
Devs are happy to see that only hib melee setup and 4 body alb setup are viable? While all the others are subpar, if not meme setups, to say the least.
What's next? Ah yeah, im so looking forward to see the style changes, and the archer's rework + stealther zerg stuff.
Than what? Savage nerf? Than?
Im gratefull to devs for their effort, but imho, not a videogame creator or anything like that, the class / realm balance should be the focus. If you see only 3 viable setups around, something went really wrong. Also thous are setups that have nothing to do with daoc. You need 4 or 5 body casters to be able to kill a tank? This is bullshit. Hibernia casters dosent have life drain DD, so they are cucked.

Why not fix hib caster and alb melee? Stop being baited by noobs.

Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:25 PM by bigne88

Tonight eu prime, no hib groups out. Coincidenze?

Fri 24 Apr 2020 1:02 AM by solitarysoule

Keep instant amnesia for bard as-is.

Give mentalists casted amnesia

Hib already has the most synergy (bard/druid/ward/fill), this would make a core setup bard/druid/ward/mentalist. Everything you need. If you can't win mez, maybe you need to look at yourself, your spec, and how you play.

Fri 24 Apr 2020 1:04 AM by Hodge

That is why a bard should get castable 2300 lul like other realms but keep insta at 1750. Or make the insta 2300 but recast at 20 sec or something.

Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:24 AM by Sepplord

Hodge wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 1:04 AM
That is why a bard should get castable 2300 lul like other realms but keep insta at 1750. Or make the insta 2300 but recast at 20 sec or something.

The whole point of the change was to NOT give them a 2300 instant-casttime speedbreak (not instant speedbreak, speedbreak always was delayed), and not to nerf their availability during combat, which a longer timer would do.

In theory the best option would have been to make the effect, dependant on the range, but leave the rest as is....but i guess that would be much more problematic to code

Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:32 AM by Razur Ur

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 10:07 AM
I know the chances are slim, but i have hopes left that you wont retort to made up insults again. There must be something else somewhere inside you and considering the previous comments teason must be getting it's turn any second now

I see you can only talk shit ;-) and i am sure that you not prefer to play hibernia. only for you i try it to explain my minds! before the patch was you builded
Hib Setups how bard bard drood drood warden/hero bm vw champ or caster group with 2 bards 2 droods 2elds 2 ench and now you see with the choice
of two bard with 2300 amnesia and one or two elds you have 3 til 4 chars how the Alb Caster groups and now after bard nerf we have only ELD with
2300 range cast Only ONE CLASSES in Hib Realm and now i hope you understand this problem!

Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:37 AM by Sepplord

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:32 AM
I see you can only talk shit ;-)

What goes around, comes around / Wie man in den Wald hineinruft so schallt es heraus

Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:49 AM by Razur Ur

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:37 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:32 AM
I see you can only talk shit ;-)

What goes around, comes around / Wie man in den Wald hineinruft so schallt es heraus

Ok you mean this is fair that all another realms have two classes with cast spell from 2300 range
for rupt and hiberna have now only one class?

Fri 24 Apr 2020 7:38 AM by Sepplord

Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:49 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:37 AM
Razur Ur wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 6:32 AM
I see you can only talk shit ;-)

What goes around, comes around / Wie man in den Wald hineinruft so schallt es heraus

Ok you mean this is fair that all another realms have two classes with cast spell from 2300 range
for rupt and hiberna have now only one class?

i never said that, i said you are not making a sound argument. Hibernia was always (in standard setup) only 2chars with that range VS 4 in Albion.
So when one gets nerfed in hibernia, why is it reasonable to give enches and mentalists 2300 range as compensation, which would double the number of 2300chars compared to before the change. I asked that multiple times, and all you did was calling me a zerger out of nowhere.
But when i react to that with sarcasm, I only talk shit

That's butthurt hypocrisy from my POV

Personally i believe only the imbalance in engagement was an unfun mechanic, but the change overshot the intended goal.

Fri 24 Apr 2020 7:52 AM by Centenario

Give baseline stun to all casters please, alb and mid.

Fri 24 Apr 2020 8:06 AM by Razur Ur

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 7:38 AM
i never said that, i said you are not making a sound argument. Hibernia was always (in standard setup) only 2chars with that range VS 4 in Albion.
So when one gets nerfed in hibernia, why is it reasonable to give enches and mentalists 2300 range as compensation, which would double the number of 2300chars compared to before the change. I asked that multiple times, and all you did was calling me a zerger out of nowhere.
But when i react to that with sarcasm, I only talk shit That's butthurt hypocrisy from my POV

Personally i believe only the imbalance in engagement was an unfun mechanic, but the change overshot the intended goal.

The reason is, that before this nerf coming that hibernia had a disadvantage vs alb caster groups but now after patch is this disadvantage bigger! that was
the reason for me to say give menta cast amnesia and enchanter ns in light spec and not more and not lesser. For me one of the two things is enough,
but the main thing is that hibernia gets something to compensate for this disadvantage.

Fri 24 Apr 2020 8:07 AM by Razur Ur

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 7:52 AM
Give baseline stun to all casters please, alb and mid.

ok give all hib caster plz baseline root :-) and ani baseline stun too.

Fri 24 Apr 2020 5:27 PM by Nephamael

I agree, wizys should have a base or specline stun or mezz and rms too, both classes are pretty underpowered in 8v8.

But back to the problem here: Bards were already weaker than sorc/healer and minst before the nerf, now they are a class that hibgroups would boot out of every grp if bard wasnt the only speed5 class in hib.

We HAVE TO give Bard a compensation for the huge range nerf, either cast amnesia or a 2nd dd and more melee dps.

--------------
also for the 8v8 balance keep in mind eld and cabba give the grp exactly the same utility (nearsight disease) and basedd for the assist train, while eld doesnt have a pet and his cast doesnt lifetap ^^ lol - so 1 eld is as many non pet casters a grp can suffer to have, before horribly losing the interrupt war off pet impact

---------------------
i also like the suggestion about menta or ench getting a long range rupt like cast amnesia or nearsight, but it has to stay in balance with the other casters like rm and wizy wich desperately need some love too

Mon 27 Apr 2020 7:59 AM by Razur Ur

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Apr 2020 5:27 PM
--------------
also for the 8v8 balance keep in mind eld and cabba give the grp exactly the same utility (nearsight disease) and basedd for the assist train, while eld doesnt have a pet and his cast doesnt lifetap ^^ lol - so 1 eld is as many non pet casters a grp can suffer to have, before horribly losing the interrupt war off pet impact

You forget the eld cannot debuff the own cast dd dmg how the cabby ;-) and when we give ench in light spec ns too then is cabby nevertheless better as
a ench because of disease :-D.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 5:49 PM by Nephamael

Indeed ^^ - still changes have to be made, this is a custom server and only therefore it can overcome classic daoc's problems of balance.

I talked to many of my fellow 8men players that still (occasionally) play on this server here.

Everyone agrees (no matter if alb or mid) we need to buff hib grps, else we will stop to see them in 8v8.

The best way to do it would be buffing Bard and maybe Ment or Ench as it had been said here before. At least one Hib class needs cast amnesia, imo Menta would be a good idea, its already strong and heavy on utility with demezz, but it would fit the playstyle best and maybe encourage players to play the heavily underplayed class again.

-------------------

Also we need buffs for RM and Wizy and qol for necro (targeting for heals/demezz etc) to make 8v8 more enjoyable by making more grp setups viable, so we don't have to run into ever the same lineups, especially with alb grps.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 6:29 PM by Forlornhope

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Apr 2020 5:49 PM
Indeed ^^ - still changes have to be made, this is a custom server and only therefore it can overcome classic daoc's problems of balance.

I talked to many of my fellow 8men players that still (occasionally) play on this server here.

Everyone agrees (no matter if alb or mid) we need to buff hib grps, else we will stop to see them in 8v8.

The best way to do it would be buffing Bard and maybe Ment or Ench as it had been said here before. At least one Hib class needs cast amnesia, imo Menta would be a good idea, its already strong and heavy on utility with demezz, but it would fit the playstyle best and maybe encourage players to play the heavily underplayed class again.

-------------------

Also we need buffs for RM and Wizy and qol for necro (targeting for heals/demezz etc) to make 8v8 more enjoyable by making more grp setups viable, so we don't have to run into ever the same lineups, especially with alb grps.

So, not sure if you're talking aabout making the pet easier to target for demezz and heals. If you are, what UI do you use? Because I use ghost and when I click on the necro players name in the group window and casting automatically target the necro pet. If you're not talking about that, welpp my bad then lol.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 7:05 PM by Patron

So much "Person A", Hello!!!
We dont want mirrored realms, we want unique classes, which is the core of daoc.
Nuff said.

Fri 1 May 2020 6:10 PM by Siouxsie

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Apr 2020 9:51 PM
I just had the best idea ever:

Since we ruined Bard as a support class we could give him hero dmg table and 2nd dd!

Seriously, think about it, Bard has to go to close range now to be useful for interrupt, so why not boost his melee/ close range rupt potential after the hard nerf for his enemy backline interrupt messing with Bards positioning.

Besides restoring balance between the 3 cc classes and Minst/Bard that would also add more 1vx 1v1 potential to the Bard.

Worst idea ever.

Fri 1 May 2020 6:16 PM by Siouxsie

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:25 AM
Im agree with buffing menta with casted amnesia, and give back to bards the standard amnesia.
Just because a couple of crybabies felt to be abused by bards during their smallmen roams, devs should not bite the bait for it...
Why there was the need of changing mincer and menta charm? Why this crit change? And why the damn crap this bard's amnesia change???? Why all this hp buff?
Devs are happy to see that only hib melee setup and 4 body alb setup are viable? While all the others are subpar, if not meme setups, to say the least.
What's next? Ah yeah, im so looking forward to see the style changes, and the archer's rework + stealther zerg stuff.
Than what? Savage nerf? Than?
Im gratefull to devs for their effort, but imho, not a videogame creator or anything like that, the class / realm balance should be the focus. If you see only 3 viable setups around, something went really wrong. Also thous are setups that have nothing to do with daoc. You need 4 or 5 body casters to be able to kill a tank? This is bullshit. Hibernia casters dosent have life drain DD, so they are cucked.

Why not fix hib caster and alb melee? Stop being baited by noobs.

Translation:
"Hello, I play a bard. Buff my class please so I can pick on solos and smallmen with my 2300 instant amnesia again."

Fri 1 May 2020 11:22 PM by bigne88

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 1 May 2020 6:16 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Apr 2020 11:25 AM
Im agree with buffing menta with casted amnesia, and give back to bards the standard amnesia.
Just because a couple of crybabies felt to be abused by bards during their smallmen roams, devs should not bite the bait for it...
Why there was the need of changing mincer and menta charm? Why this crit change? And why the damn crap this bard's amnesia change???? Why all this hp buff?
Devs are happy to see that only hib melee setup and 4 body alb setup are viable? While all the others are subpar, if not meme setups, to say the least.
What's next? Ah yeah, im so looking forward to see the style changes, and the archer's rework + stealther zerg stuff.
Than what? Savage nerf? Than?
Im gratefull to devs for their effort, but imho, not a videogame creator or anything like that, the class / realm balance should be the focus. If you see only 3 viable setups around, something went really wrong. Also thous are setups that have nothing to do with daoc. You need 4 or 5 body casters to be able to kill a tank? This is bullshit. Hibernia casters dosent have life drain DD, so they are cucked.

Why not fix hib caster and alb melee? Stop being baited by noobs.

Translation:
"Hello, I play a bard. Buff my class please so I can pick on solos and smallmen with my 2300 instant amnesia again."

Nice try, but I dont play hib from 5 months