The Bomb thing - Phoenix Freeshard

Hey !

At the moment it can be a pain to find a group if your not a Bomb, Heal or tank. lfg chanel is full of "need 2 more bombs" and many other classes are left alone.

I wont debate about this, even if, from my point of view its sad since the bomb gameplay is quite boring. I understand why and I would not drop the pots anyways.

But could we just up the social xp bonus or think about other ways to make other classes/spec more group friendly ?

By the way the faster group I had on phoenix had 4 melees and only one bomb for the most part. Level 50 in 5 hours. The tanks actually allowed us to target HL mobs keeping the wizz free to cast all along. Really, I think most of us became quite obsessed with those bombs.

[Edit] actually speaking about Albion, I don't know if it's an issue on ohers realms since I never switch.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:02 PM by gotwqqd

I was the tank in a group other day
One nor two healers
Pbt caster
4 zerker

Was very effective

Fri 10 Apr 2020 7:44 AM by Centenario

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:02 PM
I was the tank in a group other day
One nor two healers
Pbt caster
4 zerker

Was very effective

Can't compare mid to other realm... They have celerity haha

Fri 10 Apr 2020 7:51 AM by Ele

You can do the same in Alb, just add a friar with offensive heal procc to your melee group. Once you have pbt, healers will either join the train or go to sleep.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 9:36 AM by Cadebrennus

People are so obsessed with "the meta" that they forget that there are other ways to play, some of which might be as effective or more effective than "the meta".

Fri 10 Apr 2020 9:54 PM by watbrif

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 9:36 AM
People are so obsessed with "the meta" that they forget that there are other ways to play, some of which might be as effective or more effective than "the meta".

This meta thinking is definitely stupid. Even if you try and build a group in a different way, people will immediately pressure you into inviting the "right" classes (I've seen people leave the group if I didn't!). People also seem to only accept the "best" level spots - it's either POC or nothing (even if levelling in SI for example would be more efficient because you don't get ganked 24/7!). Hib is even worse than Alb because of animist (it's always great if you can't find a group, because an animist replaces all three tank classes - only to face solo animists who pull a whole spot, again leaving you with nothing to work with....). This has been annoying me for a long time, but, alas, I doubt that anything will improve the situation for tanks in Hib (unless you nerf the animist).

Mon 13 Apr 2020 11:52 PM by Wolfir666

watbrif wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 9:54 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 9:36 AM
People are so obsessed with "the meta" that they forget that there are other ways to play, some of which might be as effective or more effective than "the meta".

This meta thinking is definitely stupid. Even if you try and build a group in a different way, people will immediately pressure you into inviting the "right" classes (I've seen people leave the group if I didn't!). People also seem to only accept the "best" level spots - it's either POC or nothing (even if levelling in SI for example would be more efficient because you don't get ganked 24/7!). Hib is even worse than Alb because of animist (it's always great if you can't find a group, because an animist replaces all three tank classes - only to face solo animists who pull a whole spot, again leaving you with nothing to work with....). This has been annoying me for a long time, but, alas, I doubt that anything will improve the situation for tanks in Hib (unless you nerf the animist).

Well that always was like this in DAoC, everywhere, and it likely also never will change.
On top of that on phoenix you got pretty good and valuable options to level solo as well (which is great by itself!) , but that also will lead some people to rather leave a group where they think they won't get enough XP and wait for an invitation for another one while going around solo.
Can't even blame them, most people just play DAoC for RvR, so PvE is kinda a needed evil, they just try to make it as fast as possible to get it over with, not really thinking of the fun they might have with the group. More like in the W.W-game with the instances, where people run through them knowing everything in 15min, just to start the next one right afterwards, not caring about talk or quests or good behaviour, as all that counts is them getting their XP.

You never will be able to change that really, as there always will be some kind of "meta". and if you raise the xp bonus too much, the only thing that will happen is that the meta will change to add more social spots to provide the XP. Bombs always were the thing and always will be the thing for group-XP.

Tue 14 Apr 2020 6:32 AM by

gruenesschaf

The tinder damage add increase puts melees about on par with pbae caster, the only ones that still have a hard time are single target nuker but they can usually provide something else or spec pbae, I think there is currently only 1 class that's rather useless in pve and maybe 1 or 2 where there would be noticeably better options but given that tinder becomes the most effective in full groups even they should be invited just to fill up.

Tue 14 Apr 2020 12:07 PM by watbrif

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Apr 2020 6:32 AM
The tinder damage add increase puts melees about on par with pbae caster, the only ones that still have a hard time are single target nuker but they can usually provide something else or spec pbae, I think there is currently only 1 class that's rather useless in pve and maybe 1 or 2 where there would be noticeably better options but given that tinder becomes the most effective in full groups even they should be invited just to fill up.

I appreciate all that the server has done to alleviate the situation (social boni, tinder etc.), but I don't think that any bomb group invites tanks for their damage, but for their shield and guard. And if you have to use your shield, your dmg is rather meh of course. But it's the aoe that matters - if you can choose from a gazillion aoe "tanks" (animist), nobody will invite a normal tank just to try something new. That's a matter of low utility. I mean who doesn't want to play a character that is perfect for levelling solo, essential for group play and that you can use later to solo farm cash/rogs.

That leaves you with building tank groups, but you still need healers for those (and those are rare and rather play in bomb groups as well). Again, this might just be a mentality thing again and tank groups might be as efficient as bomb groups. But Hib seems to have such an oversupply of animists and bombs, that this doesn't really matter.

I agree with the person above: I don't think it can really be changed.

Tue 14 Apr 2020 12:35 PM by Centenario

Create two new PvE style for melee classes PbAoE DoT and PbAoE Damage:

PbAoE DoT for kite farming solo, from melee with sprint with those lines: (Left Axe, Celtic Dual, Dual Wield)
PbAoE Damage like whirlwind style with those lines: (TwoHanded/LargeWeapons/Sword/Polearm/CelticSpear/Spear)
Also make Volley-like archery ability usable like a GtAoE spell for archers.

"If you cannot beat them, join them!"

These things can be tested for 7 days, then feedback, update, test again, feedback update, test, vote, deploy or not.

Thu 16 Apr 2020 9:05 AM by Chaskha

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Apr 2020 12:35 PM
Create two new PvE style for melee classes PbAoE DoT and PbAoE Damage:

PbAoE DoT for kite farming solo, from melee with sprint with those lines: (Left Axe, Celtic Dual, Dual Wield)
PbAoE Damage like whirlwind style with those lines: (TwoHanded/LargeWeapons/Sword/Polearm/CelticSpear/Spear)
Also make Volley-like archery ability usable like a GtAoE spell for archers.

"If you cannot beat them, join them!"

These things can be tested for 7 days, then feedback, update, test again, feedback update, test, vote, deploy or not.

I would LOVE to test that *but* that needs to be a PvE style or serious balance test for PvP

Thu 16 Apr 2020 11:03 AM by wookerzz

People that stick to the "pbaoe meta" like sheeps are just "stupid" and think it's the only way.

I cry inside when I see someone announcing " Bomb Group with 3 bombers + Verd Ani LFM !! " as if it was efficient at all.

Melee groups are absolutely fine with the tinderbox change. I've been doing more and more 100% Melee Groups ( on Hib ) starting from level 1 to raise awareness that those kind of groups work perfectly fine. Not only it is WAY easier than a bomb setup group but also somewhat faster : permanently chaining reds/purps without a single break, even in challenge mode.

I tried a melee group on Mid & it also was very simple & efficient thanks to Celerity and mezz/root/aoe stun/double DA.
Same for Alb, I remember my minstrel w/ her Ellyl Champion at 40 ish hitting mobs for 700 w/ Tinderbox

People tend to forget that 200% DA from Tinderbox is actually insane. Imagine a Melee hitting for 150 ( Which is VERY easy to reach), means he will hit for 150+300 = 450. 450 PER swing without having to care about resist chances on a purple mob.

Thu 16 Apr 2020 11:42 AM by Sepplord

wookerzz wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 11:03 AM
People that stick to the "pbaoe meta" like sheeps are just "stupid" and think it's the only way.

I cry inside when I see someone announcing " Bomb Group with 3 bombers + Verd Ani LFM !! " as if it was efficient at all.

Melee groups are absolutely fine with the tinderbox change. I've been doing more and more 100% Melee Groups ( on Hib ) starting from level 1 to raise awareness that those kind of groups work perfectly fine. Not only it is WAY easier than a bomb setup group but also somewhat faster : permanently chaining reds/purps without a single break, even in challenge mode.

I tried a melee group on Mid & it also was very simple & efficient thanks to Celerity and mezz/root/aoe stun/double DA.
Same for Alb, I remember my minstrel w/ her Ellyl Champion at 40 ish hitting mobs for 700 w/ Tinderbox

People tend to forget that 200% DA from Tinderbox is actually insane. Imagine a Melee hitting for 150 ( Which is VERY easy to reach), means he will hit for 150+300 = 450. 450 PER swing without having to care about resist chances on a purple mob.

He is still just hitting a single mob...
i fully agree that melee groups with perma-tinder are perfectly fine and even have advantages regarding their safety, but "cringing" at bombgrps? Come on, that's really stretching it.

Thu 16 Apr 2020 11:55 AM by wookerzz

He is still just hitting a single mob...
i fully agree that melee groups with perma-tinder are perfectly fine and even have advantages regarding their safety, but "cringing" at bombgrps? Come on, that's really stretching it.

Not what I meant, bomb groups are also perfectly fine but I do cringe at all those people trying to include 45 bombs per group & almost laughing at any melee's face because they're not a bomber when 2 bombers are way more than enough & thus would leave space to fit in 1-2 melees.

Thu 16 Apr 2020 1:10 PM by watbrif

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 11:42 AM
wookerzz wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 11:03 AM
People that stick to the "pbaoe meta" like sheeps are just "stupid" and think it's the only way.

I cry inside when I see someone announcing " Bomb Group with 3 bombers + Verd Ani LFM !! " as if it was efficient at all.

Melee groups are absolutely fine with the tinderbox change. I've been doing more and more 100% Melee Groups ( on Hib ) starting from level 1 to raise awareness that those kind of groups work perfectly fine. Not only it is WAY easier than a bomb setup group but also somewhat faster : permanently chaining reds/purps without a single break, even in challenge mode.

I tried a melee group on Mid & it also was very simple & efficient thanks to Celerity and mezz/root/aoe stun/double DA.
Same for Alb, I remember my minstrel w/ her Ellyl Champion at 40 ish hitting mobs for 700 w/ Tinderbox

People tend to forget that 200% DA from Tinderbox is actually insane. Imagine a Melee hitting for 150 ( Which is VERY easy to reach), means he will hit for 150+300 = 450. 450 PER swing without having to care about resist chances on a purple mob.

He is still just hitting a single mob...
i fully agree that melee groups with perma-tinder are perfectly fine and even have advantages regarding their safety, but "cringing" at bombgrps? Come on, that's really stretching it.

I really would love to see those melee aoe styles suggested above tested (only in pve obviously). I think the aoe is the key, because it would pander to people's prejudices (aoe=good). You'll never be able to change people's ideas about melee groups, because people simply don't have to: there're are enough bombs and animists around, there's no incentive to change the status quo. These are the classes people play, because they're useful across rvr, pve and for making cash/feathers (and they're very easy to template, i.e. you reach rvr much earlier). Compare this to champ; excels at one thing aka most niche thing ever: 1on1 pvp (on top of everything, it's the most expensive thing to template in the whole game?). People will "never" include tanks unless you make tanks more like "bombs" in pve.

Thu 16 Apr 2020 2:22 PM by gotwqqd

Please god no
Aoe melee is garbage
All the games that go this route are incredibly boring

Thu 16 Apr 2020 2:52 PM by Lollie

Cleave groups *shudder*

Thu 16 Apr 2020 5:46 PM by watbrif

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 2:22 PM
Please god no
Aoe melee is garbage
All the games that go this route are incredibly boring

Can you tell us why? As far as hib is concerned, anis are just that: aoe tanks, so it's nothing new really.

Fri 17 Apr 2020 6:30 AM by Sepplord

watbrif wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 5:46 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 2:22 PM
Please god no
Aoe melee is garbage
All the games that go this route are incredibly boring

Can you tell us why? As far as hib is concerned, anis are just that: aoe tanks, so it's nothing new really.

And you are saying the animist is a good thing for the game?

Fri 17 Apr 2020 5:09 PM by watbrif

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 6:30 AM
watbrif wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 5:46 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Apr 2020 2:22 PM
Please god no
Aoe melee is garbage
All the games that go this route are incredibly boring

Can you tell us why? As far as hib is concerned, anis are just that: aoe tanks, so it's nothing new really.

And you are saying the animist is a good thing for the game?

Hell no lol. But other than keeping the status quo (which I don't like), the other alternative would be adjusting the animist. And that ain't going to happen.

Sat 18 Apr 2020 5:23 PM by Chaskha

we all have a class or two that we think ruin the game or should be changed - it's not really the topic