Grey griefing - Phoenix Freeshard

So a new issue is arising in which killing grays offer no benefits and so players are Mezzing a group of grays as they are pulling and allowing the mobs to kill said gery group and in which the grey group now takes an xp penalty. This is even more annoying then getting ganked i would much rather just be killed and then move on.

My solution, if hit by an enemy realm member, including mez, it sets a 0 xp penalty if killed by a mob for a given period of time maybe 1 minute.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 3:42 AM by Neso

That's been a thing since daoc was released.
I'm sure you'll also witness - death of buffer/healer/cc/tank only, aoe root/stun, melee/disease snared if kiting mobs, amnesia spam healer/cc, confusing fnf pets...etc
You'll be amazed!

Mon 6 Apr 2020 6:09 PM by Quik

I agree with OP though. If you are wanting to kill the grey's then by all means do it.

If you want to grief them like this it should be a bannable offense personally.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 6:29 PM by sylvynyr

Or don't XP in PvP zones...?

How would intention be determined?

For example, a full group fighting shredders in DF... an assassin/archer wants to kill a player, picks one who's sitting, kills them and vanishes/runs away. That might have been the primary healer, everyone else ends up dying and taking XP loss. Or maybe they die due to the disarray and confusion of someone dying to a player enemy.

Should that be punished with a ban? Or don't XP in PvP zones.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 6:40 PM by Quik

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 6:29 PM
Or don't XP in PvP zones...?

How would intention be determined?

For example, a full group fighting shredders in DF... an assassin/archer wants to kill a player, picks one who's sitting, kills them and vanishes/runs away. That might have been the primary healer, everyone else ends up dying and taking XP loss. Or maybe they die due to the disarray and confusion of someone dying to a player enemy.

Should that be punished with a ban? Or don't XP in PvP zones.

Nope that is totally fine.

The OP specifically stated that the 50 was mezzing the group after a pull and then just letting the mobs kill them. To me THAT is griefing. The 50 could have easily killed them himself.

Stealther killing a healer during a pull is doing what a stealthier does. A wizard nuking the healer during a pull is the same thing. As long as the group itself is actively being attacked I have no issues, but mezzing and letting the mobs kill is simply an act of griefing and should be dealt with.

And saying don't xp in PvP zones is really unfair because grey's that choose to level there are taking the risk that a high lvl will come kill them, and most are fine with that and accept it, but just deliberately mezzing the group and letting them die makes them lose xp and is straight up just griefing them.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 6:51 PM by sylvynyr

Quik wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 6:40 PM
Nope that is totally fine.

The OP specifically stated that the 50 was mezzing the group after a pull and then just letting the mobs kill them. To me THAT is griefing. The 50 could have easily killed them himself.

Stealther killing a healer during a pull is doing what a stealthier does. A wizard nuking the healer during a pull is the same thing. As long as the group itself is actively being attacked I have no issues, but mezzing and letting the mobs kill is simply an act of griefing and should be dealt with.

And saying don't xp in PvP zones is really unfair because grey's that choose to level there are taking the risk that a high lvl will come kill them, and most are fine with that and accept it, but just deliberately mezzing the group and letting them die makes them lose xp and is straight up just griefing them.

What if there was a single 35+ character in the otherwise grey group that was aoe mezzed?

I'm not saying I'm ok with the specific situation you've described, but how would intention be determined if there's potential to punish non-shitty people with a potential blanket policy.

Also, I'm not sure if the code works the same way on Phoenix, but on the official servers if a mob did more than 50% damage to you and then you were then killed by a player, you received an XP death. Again, it's just a risk of XPing in PvP zones.

The XP is nothing to write home about anyway... 30%? vs safe 200% mob type bonuses?
Tinders and Realm XP Items (branches, snow, soil) are probably more valuable, but not very important in the grand scheme.

There's also the option for a group of greys to end up killing an attempted ganker (or even just a passerby who had no intention of attacking) and getting a few Realm Levels which can be a nice bonus too; thanks for the many donations!

Mon 6 Apr 2020 6:58 PM by Quik

Oh I get the difficulty in trying to determine if it is griefing or not, but the specific scenario the OP mentioned was mezzing the whole group and letting mobs kill them.

That is strictly griefing and there is no other excuse. There is no reason to do that unless you just want to try to ruin there fun in the game.

Now lvl 35 is different because they con yellow to 50's even though they are grey and that makes all lvl 35's fair game regardless because of game code. It doesn't matter though because we aren't talking about whether it is ok to kill grey xp'ers, we are in agreement that should always be fine. That is the danger of xping in an RvR area and anyone who does it is basically agreeing to that.

We are talking about mezzing a whole group of grey's and simply letting the mobs kill them without making any effort yourself to kill any of them. That, to me, shows nothing but griefing intent. The lvl 50 has no plans on killing them himself and is simply mezzing them deliberately trying to make them lose xp/money.

Yes the xp loss is negligible as is the money especially here on phoenix, but that really isn't even the point.

If a lvl 50 wants to mess with grey's that's fine, just kill them. Mezzing and letting mobs do it? Nah, that should be considered griefing.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:37 PM by sylvynyr

I felt bad the other day.

I found a Yellow and Grey xping. I killed the Yellow and left the Grey, but then realized after leaving that was probably MORE shitty than just killing the Grey who was now stuck out in the Frontier to either wait for their friend to return, risk running back home, or just take an XP death to teleport back home. Being shitty wasn't my intention, but again it's not always so black and white regarding "grey griefing".

Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:47 PM by Quik

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:37 PM
I felt bad the other day.

I found a Yellow and Grey xping. I killed the Yellow and left the Grey, but then realized after leaving that was probably MORE shitty than just killing the Grey who was now stuck out in the Frontier to either wait for their friend to return, risk running back home, or just take an XP death to teleport back home. Being shitty wasn't my intention, but again it's not always so black and white regarding "grey griefing".

LOL Yeah I understand exactly and I agree. Just kill both so they can then choose to either run back out together or go somewhere else.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:47 PM by thirian24

Just curious, is there something in the rules that states you cannot mezz/kill enemies and/or let them take an xp death, that are in the frontier, regardless of what they are doing and regardless of their level?

Is there something that states that I'm not allowed to kill an enemies mob that they are pulling or trying to kill?

I don't do this but I'm curious if there is a rule against it.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:49 PM by Quik

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:47 PM
Just curious, is there something in the rules that states you cannot mezz/kill enemies and/or let them take an xp death, that are in the frontier, regardless of what they are doing and regardless of their level?

Is there something that states that I'm not allowed to kill an enemies mob that they are pulling or trying to kill?

I don't do this but I'm curious if there is a rule against it.

I don't think so and I remember having this discussion with a dev a year or more ago and I am pretty sure they said it is all fair game in an RvR zone.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:52 PM by sylvynyr

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:47 PM
Just curious, is there something in the rules that states you cannot mezz/kill enemies and/or let them take an xp death, that are in the frontier, regardless of what they are doing and regardless of their level?

Is there something that states that I'm not allowed to kill an enemies mob that they are pulling or trying to kill?

I don't do this but I'm curious if there is a rule against it.

Interesting points... I'm doubtful the following applies (believe there's some sense of an assumption of acceptable aggression between realms), but the wording uses "player" instead of specifically stating "of the same realm".

9. In-game Behavior

9.1 Pulling or leading a hostile NPC or creature along behind you and attempting to get it to attack another player who does not desire that engagement.

9.2 Attacking an already attacked creature without the consent of the player who pulled the mob/s first, is strictly forbidden.

1st offense: Warning
2nd offense: 1-day ban
3rd offense: 7-day ban
4th offense: 4-weeks ban
5th offense: Permaban of Player

Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:59 PM by watbrif

Levelling in NF, I've faced all sorts of behaviours on this server: the standard grey-gank, people mezzing me and just leaving me there for what seems five minutes (lol?), realm enemies hugging me and moving on (still the best), real enemies mezzing me and leaving me to die, the ultimate coward (ganking someone and then running away from a 1 on 1 after realising that I wasn't alone), stealthers annoying my level group for hours and then "rewarding" us by letting us kill them (some people really have too much time).

The problem with "red is dead" is that you can basically do whatever you want with/to your realm enemies, including being massive [insert insult]. Most of killing greys is basically just grief playing, because the only intention is to annoy the other side. Unless you don't get rid of killing greys altogether, applying PvE rules in RvR makes little sense.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:35 PM by Freedomcall

Release, pay the healer, and get back to the spot.
Just get over it.
This is far from the serious issue that should be looked into.

Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:29 AM by gotwqqd

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:37 PM
I felt bad the other day.

I found a Yellow and Grey xping. I killed the Yellow and left the Grey, but then realized after leaving that was probably MORE shitty than just killing the Grey who was now stuck out in the Frontier to either wait for their friend to return, risk running back home, or just take an XP death to teleport back home. Being shitty wasn't my intention, but again it's not always so black and white regarding "grey griefing".

Or you can see that they are way below you by the mobs they are killing and leave them alkne

Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:13 AM by sylvynyr

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:29 AM
Or you can see that they are way below you by the mobs they are killing and leave them alkne

Yeah, but why? So the argument is leave greys alone in the frontier... and now leave yellows alone that look like they're xping off lower mobs? How many stipulations can there be around PvP in an RvR game in the free for all areas?

That being said, when I saw them again, I left them alone =P

Tue 7 Apr 2020 9:57 AM by gotwqqd

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:13 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:29 AM
Or you can see that they are way below you by the mobs they are killing and leave them alkne

Yeah, but why? So the argument is leave greys alone in the frontier... and now leave yellows alone that look like they're xping off lower mobs? How many stipulations can there be around PvP in an RvR game in the free for all areas?

That being said, when I saw them again, I left them alone =P

Which is great

Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:30 PM by daoc4tw

Grey ganking is primarly done for 1 reasons - 1 let people know you are trying to find small fights of people of similar level to draw RP worthy people out.

I do this to sound the alarm, there is currently no where to go if you dont like "bg zerg rvr" or getting ran over by 8mans every time you are trying to find other people with small grp sizes.

Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:39 PM by Quik

daoc4tw wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:30 PM
Grey ganking is primarly done for 1 reasons - 1 let people know you are trying to find small fights of people of similar level to draw RP worthy people out.

I do this to sound the alarm, there is currently no where to go if you dont like "bg zerg rvr" or getting ran over by 8mans every time you are trying to find other people with small grp sizes.

I do agree this is 1 of the reasons, but I personally feel it is mainly done because it allows people to feel superior and they enjoy trying to ruin the fun for other players.

The other reason to a smaller degree is to draw out players.

The difference is easy to see as people like you trying to draw out enemy players will just attack and kill the group, or maybe even just 1 to get kill spam, plus they tend to just do it once and move on. The griefer will do things like mez the group after a pull or just mez the healer or tank, or just cause chaos. and they will come back to do it again.

Tue 7 Apr 2020 7:55 PM by daoc4tw

I kill greys every time i cant find action. I don't like to ride the bg, i dont think hanging out in a discord with 50 people taking keeps is fun,. I want to find other small groups and fight them. killing greys by the relic gates seems to be the only way to bring out small groups.

in OF you use to be able to go to odins gate, or hadrians wall to find smaller groups, or more even matches. On here there are no areas I can find with smallmans. Its just fgs running trying to kill as many solos / small grousp as they can before they get wiped

Tue 7 Apr 2020 8:09 PM by daytonchambers

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:29 AM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 7:37 PM
I felt bad the other day.

I found a Yellow and Grey xping. I killed the Yellow and left the Grey, but then realized after leaving that was probably MORE shitty than just killing the Grey who was now stuck out in the Frontier to either wait for their friend to return, risk running back home, or just take an XP death to teleport back home. Being shitty wasn't my intention, but again it's not always so black and white regarding "grey griefing".

Or you can see that they are way below you by the mobs they are killing and leave them alkne

Some groups will run over lowbies intentionally, just to "chum the water" and bait out higher level players. Some groups don't have that as their intention and just like to be jerks.

To quote Simon Phoenix (lol) from the film Demolition Man: "You can't take away people's right to be assholes"

It's a crappy thing to do, and displays the poor character of the player. But it IS a pvp area, and making things safe in what is supposed to be an unsafe place sets a bad precedent.

I just wish the task XP items were dispersed a bit more evenly so that the ganking wasn't disproportionately high in Cruachan Gorge.