Mechanics of blocking - Phoenix Freeshard

I am fiddling with a hero and would like to know a little more technical detail as regards blocking and capping that attribute.

Assumption: The opening page stating that blocking is capped at 60% and parrying is capped at 50% (I think this was for RvR) is still true.

My level 47 Hero blocks yellow con mobs at a fairly consistent rate, around 45% (which is shown with blue text after each successful block). He is currently a mix of blocking and RA Mastery of Blocking. He currently has 47 in shield with a +8 skills modifier, and his Mastery of blocking is currently MOB III (6%). If we oversimplify this result mathematically, then the 45% (total) - 6% (MOBIII) = 39% is resulting from his shield skill. That would make one point in shield equal to about 0.70% (39/(47+8)).

If we extrapolate that a bit and assume at level 50 I will have the theoretical max stuffed into blocking (Shields = 50 +12 or 62 total) then the block rate will be about 43.4%, and I could theoretically cap blocking at Mastery of blocking VII = 18%. The resulting calculation would be 43.4% + 18% = 61.4%, with the cap at 60% overall.

My question is fairly simplistic and complex at the same time. It appears you can cap blocking a variety of ways using the two pertinent skills (shield and MOB RA), the question is ... is there any advantage to one option versus another - and especially so in light of fighting a red con mob, or another player?

Is there any benefits or unknown math involved that may lean a player towards advancing the RA instead of the base block rate?

... and, is the opening screen assumption still correct (blocking capped at 60%) for RvR? ... and by extension is blocking NOT capped for PvE and fighting mobs?

If I was building a farming toon I might want to continue to build out the block skill past the RvR cap as it would be useful in PvE. Something worth contemplating on some level, even though there are other farming toons that kill faster or in quantity.

Thanks for your responses.

Tue 18 Feb 2020 12:11 AM by daytonchambers

My 2 coppers:

I see no mention of dexterity in your post, and dex is a noticeable factor in your ability to block.

My hero is specced for raiding: 50blunt 42shield and 39parry, with 6spear for back snares when I RvR with her. RAs are MoB 5 and MoParry 5.

I main tank Galladoria easily, and have tanked in both DS and HoH. Not having 50 shield will not gimp you in these raids.

I can not stress enough that 42 shield is plenty, and the remaining points you spend pushing it to 50 would be of far greater value boosting your parry. While there ARE caps to block and parry in RvR you will often face an opponent with a 2h weapon which reduces parry rate or a dual wielder which reduces your ability to block. Throwing all your eggs into one basket is a bad idea.

If you want some numbers which show why I chose to spec this way...

each point in block adds 0.5% so going from 50 down to 42 shield spec you lose roughly 4% block
each point of parry adds 1% so taking those points from shield I go from 28 parry to 39, adding 11%

11% more parry vs 4% block, it was a no-brainer

Tue 18 Feb 2020 2:41 AM by Freedomcall

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
each point in block adds 0.5% so going from 50 down to 42 shield spec you lose roughly 4% block
each point of parry adds 1% so taking those points from shield I go from 28 parry to 39, adding 11%

11% more parry vs 4% block, it was a no-brainer

Is parry rate customized on this server?
It is supposed to be adding 0.5% every parry spec just like block rate.

Tue 18 Feb 2020 11:49 PM by Astroch33se

This is all good information but is lacking the authority of some published source. I am not questioning anyone so much as verifying the actual math.

My perception (based on observed block and parry of my character) is that none of these are correct - and since we have three different versions of block and parry rate in as many posts, methinks all may be heresay or opinion. Not beating you up ... but where are you getting these 0.5 block and 1.0 parry numbers, as i've not seen anything published by the devs that backs any of our guesses.

Note that block is capped higher than parry in their RvR statement (60% block and 50% parry). If parry were at 1% per point and block was at 0.5% then parry would exceed block by double, and it would be a waste to add points in Master of Parry as you could max it with 50 points in Parry alone (50 x 1.0% = 50%, which is cap). This math doesn't seem to hold water given parry is capped lower than block (I don't know with certainty about any of this, just using the math you offered).

Again, not looking to disagree - simply looking for the definitive source on this math. Does anyone know if these caps are for RvR only, and PvE has no cap on block or parry?

More Observations: let's assume I am hunting Jello Pudding in Sheeroe Hills. If I fight a yellow Jello pudding my parry rate is 37% and if I fight an OJ pudding, my parry rate drops about 2% to 35%. Both blocking and evade also drop based on the con of the mob I am fighting, usually they drop about 1 - 2% when the mob cons OJ. These rates are using the same buffs (or no buffs) on each, and using the same weapons and armor. I have removed the mob name only because it doesn't matter which mob type I fight, the observed block and parry rates rise and fall identically, so the con of the mob has some effect on my ability to block or parry its strike.

This outcome flies in the face of a straight "X amount per point" formula, as I had the identical amount for both combats - yet the rates changed ( I am recounting what the numbers in blue text are telling me, this is the source of my outcomes). This makes sense as the higher level mobs are twice as mean as a lower level - and I would assume it would be harder for me to combat a tougher foe than an easier one.

Fri 21 Feb 2020 6:17 PM by daytonchambers

Freedomcall wrote:
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
each point in block adds 0.5% so going from 50 down to 42 shield spec you lose roughly 4% block
each point of parry adds 1% so taking those points from shield I go from 28 parry to 39, adding 11%

11% more parry vs 4% block, it was a no-brainer

Is parry rate customized on this server?
It is supposed to be adding 0.5% every parry spec just like block rate.

Upon further testing I believe I was mistaken on this. By dropping shield I lose 4% block and gain 5% parry. Whoops

That said, I still believe having a more balanced block and parry spec (42b 39p vs 50b 28p) Is the way to go, unless you do nothing but guard bot someone else which is not what the OP said was his intention.

Mon 16 Mar 2020 11:14 AM by skaloo

Yup, it's 0.5% for both. So yeah you loose 4% block and gain 5% parry. And lower your guard.
But keep in mind you also lower your shield WS hence possibly a bit more miss on the shield styles.
And of course as you said, the type of weapons you're facing further modify things. Though it seems that modification is applied only to the 'skill' part of the formula (not the RA), according to a test I did dueling a zerker who used successively 2 weapons, 1 main hand only then a two-hander.
End of the day it depends what are your plans.
Dexterity also plays a role, according to my testing, it's about 0.5% per 10 DEX (for both parry and block).

And about what Astroch33se says: those are base values further modified by the level of the mobs you're fighting.
The higher they are, the more pseudo WS they get and therefore the less your defense is effective (lower values seen in the logs for your parry/block).
But comparing your base theoretical values is still relevant imho in that it helps you choose your final spec depending on how you're going to use your tank (guard or not, solo orange stuff or raid-tank high purp things).

Another testing I did also seems to indicate there's a small bug in the MoBlock and MoParry RA, they seem to give less than they should (approx 1 rank less aka the one supposed to give 15% gives 12% IIRC - did that test a while ago).

Mon 16 Mar 2020 11:24 AM by skaloo

I forgot to reply properly the initial question:

My question is fairly simplistic and complex at the same time. It appears you can cap blocking a variety of ways using the two pertinent skills (shield and MOB RA), the question is ... is there any advantage to one option versus another - and especially so in light of fighting a red con mob, or another player?

Is there any benefits or unknown math involved that may lean a player towards advancing the RA instead of the base block rate?

... and, is the opening screen assumption still correct (blocking capped at 60%) for RvR? ... and by extension is blocking NOT capped for PvE and fighting mobs?

I mentioned it in my post but didn't explicitly reply to the initial question.
The shield weaponskill is raised by your shield skill - and based on your DEX. The MoBlock RA does nothing on that. So your chances to hit with shield styles are slightly raised with your shield spec. Depending on what you plan to use your tank for, it may have a small impact. or not.

About the cap: I have no certainty if it applies to phoenix - but I assume so. But it's rather hard to reach so I never bothered checking. I'm currently MoBlock 7 MoParry 6 on my warrior and still rather far from the cap even with capped bufs (48% block and 38% parry I think on the base values, would have to check if you want to know the exact value).

Mon 16 Mar 2020 1:29 PM by gromet12

Its not any hidden math behind it, the formulas are available online with a little searching

Base = 5 %
Skill Bonus = 0.5 * (shield spec + realm rank bonus + template bonus) %
Dex Bonus = 1 / 40 * ((dex * 2) - 100)%
Realm Ability = Mastery of Blocking %
Total = Base + Skill Bonus + Dex Bonus + Realm Ability

Base = 5 %
Skill Bonus = 0.5 * (parry spec + realm rank bonus + template bonus) %
Dex Bonus = 1 / 40 * ((dex * 2) - 100)%
Realm Ability = Mastery of Parrying %

Total = Base + Skill Bonus + Dex Bonus + Realm Ability

This is then reduced by your targets dmg table (tank/lite tank get basically 17%, rest melee specs get 11% if each class has speced to 51 composite in the weapon) and if fighting a target that cuts your defense (dw for block rate, 2hander for parry)

Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:57 PM by Vendetta

As someone who plays a tank more often than I would like in PVE - you need to remember there's 3 things about tanking:
[list=]You aren't just tanking for yourself. You are tanking and blocking for whomever you are guarding.[/list]
[list=]Parry is significantly less valuable in any group, because guard impacts ANYONE in your group... parry does not![/list]
[list=]Optimal PVE spec is almost always 50+11 shield, MOB9 - with very few exceptions (excluding other RAs of course which add a lot of value).[/list]

Fri 3 Apr 2020 8:03 AM by Centenario

Nobody mentioned the shield size.
DAoC works like a turn-based game, with rounds.

It is supposedly:
Small shield = blocks maximum 1 attack per round
Medium shield = blocks maximum 2 attacks per round
Large shield = blocks maximum 3 attacks per round

(but doesn't take into account the guard blocks)

So If you got a medium shield (blocks max 2 attacks) and you have 5 mobs on you, the block will be calculated only for the first two mobs, the other 3 mobs' attacks will never be blocked.

That is actually how it is supposed to be coded, but I don't know about this server, it seems OP in PvE.

Also the check [for evade] before the check for parry and then block, [then miss].
So the more parry you have the more chance you will not get to the block roll.
[EDIT]

Fri 3 Apr 2020 12:20 PM by Saroi

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 8:03 AM
Also the check for miss happens before the check for evade then parry and then block.
So the more parry you have the more chance you will not get to the block roll.

Afaik Miss comes after block. It is evade - parry - block - miss. Gruenesschaf wrote that somewhere here on the forum.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 3:00 AM by

gruenesschaf

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 8:03 AM
Nobody mentioned the shield size.
DAoC works like a turn-based game, with rounds.

It is supposedly:
Small shield = blocks maximum 1 attack per round
Medium shield = blocks maximum 2 attacks per round
Large shield = blocks maximum 3 attacks per round

(but doesn't take into account the guard blocks)

So If you got a medium shield (blocks max 2 attacks) and you have 5 mobs on you, the block will be calculated only for the first two mobs, the other 3 mobs' attacks will never be blocked.

That is actually how it is supposed to be coded, but I don't know about this server, it seems OP in PvE.

Also the check [for evade] before the check for parry and then block, [then miss].
So the more parry you have the more chance you will not get to the block roll.
[EDIT]

Once you go above 1/2/3 attackers you have a block chance penalty. See: https://gaheris.net/p/test_shield_size.html specifically the blocking for self against 10 red/purple mobs section.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 3:36 AM by

gruenesschaf

Saroi wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 12:20 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 8:03 AM
Also the check for miss happens before the check for evade then parry and then block.
So the more parry you have the more chance you will not get to the block roll.

Afaik Miss comes after block. It is evade - parry - block - miss. Gruenesschaf wrote that somewhere here on the forum.

Yep, however, since multiple checks are incompatible with streak avoidance there is now only a single defensive combat roll (dashing, guard, evade etc.) but the chances are still the same as before (e. g. the total avoidance % is still the same and so is the absolute evade chance which still reduces the absolute parry chance (that is also exactly the same as before), just like it was the case with having the evade check before the parry check).

I think I explained it in more detail in the thread that made the change, anyways before you could imagine someone with 20% evade and 10% parry would effectively / in absolute terms have 20% evade (because the evade check is first), if you're attacked by 100 swings you would hence evade on average 20 and only for the remaining 80 swings would a parry check even happen, in case of 10% that would mean you parry on average 8 -> the absolute parry chance is not 10% but just 8%, just like the total avoidance % is not 30% but only 28%, as a simplified example in this combined defensive roll 1-20 would be evade, 21-28 would be parry etc.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 11:01 AM by Centenario

Thank you Green Sheep for the details!

Will have to digest it.