Stealther utility - Phoenix Freeshard

Archers - New ability in stealth line: Scouting. Range 3000, AOE 1000 Units, lasts 1:30 min. Casts an invisible buff on an enemy that broadcasts their location via mini map, unbeknownst to them, for your realm to see. Location is updated intermittently, based on spec level. ie: level 20 stealth "pings" the player every 2min, level 30 "pings" them every 1min, level 40 "pings" them every 30 seconds. Effect: the archer gets X amount of realm points if the enemy dies with the buff active.

Second new ability in stealthing line - detect scouting. Self buff. You become aware if you are being scouted and can purge it from the group.

This would give archers a cool new play style that doesn't give them any advantage in 1v1 or stealth groups. Encourages groups/zergs to group archers. Fits well into the "scouting" roleplay.

Assassins - New Dual Wield ability: Whirlwind, melee AoE damage. Make it available in the low levels, like level 20. Make it a cut+paste of the Valk ability Windmill so the mechanics are all ready in the game. This would give stealthers more utility while leveling and offer something to a group that inst available anywhere else. Make it stealth only as a light tank can spec shield to find groups easy. Again, has next to zero impact on 1v1 or end game rvr, and just adds a little something to help assassins level up, and fits nicely in the roleplay mechanic.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 12:16 PM by thirian24

El oh el

Thu 2 Apr 2020 12:19 PM by MrWolf

just giving back camo and see hidden would be sufficent

Thu 2 Apr 2020 12:46 PM by inoeth

we do not need anything that encourages zerging lol

Thu 2 Apr 2020 2:23 PM by jwalker

If anything we need a mechanic that gives a small disadvantage to stealth groups/zerg of more than 2. Like

1) If you are the only stealthed character of your realm in a given area (make it 2000 range) you get +150 range detection bonus unless your opponent has the same bonus
2) Once there is 1 stealthed character within 2000 range of you, you loose that extra bonus
3) Once there are more than 1 other friendly stealther within 2000 range of you, you get a message. If you are still within the range of the other friendly stealthers 10 seconds later you get a stealth debuff, increasing the detection range of enemy players (including visibles) by 50 per friendly stealther within 2000 range.

This means if there are 3 stealthers in an area of 2000 range, other characters (this includes visibles) will detect them at +100 range. If a solo stealther of another realm is also in the area he gets another 150 range detection and could see them as 250 (base detection) + 150 (detection bonus for being the only stealther of the realm) + 100 (stealth penalty for being 3 stealthers of the same realm). This way at least the solo can avoid the 3 man group and visibles have a better chance to uncover them.

Since you get a message and have 10 seconds before the debuff applies you can avoid the stealth penalty from other none grouped players.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 3:23 PM by Isavyr

MrWolf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 12:19 PM
just giving back camo and see hidden would be sufficent

Why? Camou is unnecessary with the new changes--archers no longer have stealth disadvantage.

The first idea is interesting--not sure if technically feasible. Stealthers don't serve a purpose in RvR for the most part, so it would help restore that value. I think assassins are already viable in PvE groups without the change and that change certainly won't help them in RvR, so I think AoE attack is unnecessary.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 5:57 PM by Isavyr

I think stealthers need to be viewed as a total package. Given roles that can serve the realm and visible groups so they aren't stuck in a griefer role. For example:

Stealth change
> Stealthers receive and benefit from movement speed buffs in stealth
Rationale: Stealthers have a difficult time engaging in RvR because their position is key, and yet they are so slow to adjust it. They work best in a stagnant battlefield/position, but that often limits their involvement to camping. This change would help free them from that restriction while helping them be effective in visible groups.

> Reduced re-stealth timer at higher stealth specializations (40, 45, 50 -> -1, -2, -3 seconds?)
Rationale: Increases value of specializing in stealth, and helps them re-engage more often. This would be especially useful as an alternate spec to current meta for assassins in visible groups. Could consider other mechanisms (temporary speed boost re-entering stealth, for example) that would help visible groupplay.

Crit Shot changes
>Level 39: -100 AF reduction
>Level 47: -200 AF reduction
Rationale: Crit shot has an internal cooldown by target, and long preparation time, and therefore is primed to become something useful for visible groups. Since it's not worth specializing higher in bow for a number of reasons, this gives a reason to doing so. It unfortunately has two unintended consequences:
1) Somewhat increases griefing effectiveness of stealth zergs by enhancing the synergy between multiple stealthers
2) May displace necro, despite weaker AF debuff. Could be iterated upon until right balance is found

Intel reporting mechanism
I don't have ideas, but think it would be important for stealthers to be given a scouting/intel role where they are more proficient than the typical visual player. Something automatic and useful would be ideal. The idea presented by original post could work.

This is probably all fantasy as it would significantly change how stealthers play--but imo, it needs to happen because it's largely a garbage role.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:54 PM by Cadebrennus

The first thing a stealther needs to do to increase their utility in a Visi group is to stop stealthing on Inc and stay stealthed the whole fight without contributing to their group. If you're a stealther DO SOMETHING during the fight. If you're an Assassin, then use your utility styles and poisons for their various effects. If you're an Archer then use your weapon styles for their effects and use your bow to interrupt and assist.

Be useful. You already have your utility but you're not using it and it's no one else's fault but your own.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 2:29 AM by gotwqqd

Fix Stealth

1. Increase detection when enemy realm stealth are concentrated in area(figure out algorithm)

2. Decrease same realm speed when concentrated in area

Fri 3 Apr 2020 3:03 AM by Isavyr

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:54 PM
The first thing a stealther needs to do to increase their utility in a Visi group is to stop stealthing on Inc and stay stealthed the whole fight without contributing to their group. If you're a stealther DO SOMETHING during the fight. If you're an Assassin, then use your utility styles and poisons for their various effects. If you're an Archer then use your weapon styles for their effects and use your bow to interrupt and assist.

Be useful. You already have your utility but you're not using it and it's no one else's fault but your own.

I think your tips are well-advised against poor players. Certainly there is utility there that can result in good plays in a visible group. Against more competitive players, there's less margin of error, and the lack of utility/damage becomes obvious.

Assassins are as soft as a caster, less damage than an off-tank, and cannot readily get openers. They lack anytime slam (like merc/bm). This puts them at huge disadvantage. They need ways to open on enemies easier (which is what one of my suggests offers). They also need to be more rugged, and I think re-tooling vanish could help here.

Archers perform a lot better, in my opinion, because they offer unique advantages (high range, high attack rate). Certain classes, like scouts, are already on very strong on paper and have yet to be exploited by visible groups.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 6:46 AM by Cadebrennus

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 3:03 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:54 PM
The first thing a stealther needs to do to increase their utility in a Visi group is to stop stealthing on Inc and stay stealthed the whole fight without contributing to their group. If you're a stealther DO SOMETHING during the fight. If you're an Assassin, then use your utility styles and poisons for their various effects. If you're an Archer then use your weapon styles for their effects and use your bow to interrupt and assist.

Be useful. You already have your utility but you're not using it and it's no one else's fault but your own.

I think your tips are well-advised against poor players. Certainly there is utility there that can result in good plays in a visible group. Against more competitive players, there's less margin of error, and the lack of utility/damage becomes obvious.

Assassins are as soft as a caster, less damage than an off-tank, and cannot readily get openers. They lack anytime slam (like merc/bm). This puts them at huge disadvantage. They need ways to open on enemies easier (which is what one of my suggests offers). They also need to be more rugged, and I think re-tooling vanish could help here.

Archers perform a lot better, in my opinion, because they offer unique advantages (high range, high attack rate). Certain classes, like scouts, are already on very strong on paper and have yet to be exploited by visible groups.

I agree with you on several points, but Assassins have a nice toolbox that is underutilized. For one thing, they have an anytime spammable snare in a style line that is unavailable to other classes. For another, they have a spammable disease ability (via weapon swap). That alone makes them a valuable asset as a tank assist. Sure they're squishier than a tank but certainly not as squishy as a caster.

It's important to think of stealther assist not just in 8v8 roaming, where they may be of more or less value, but to also think of them in other scenarios such as open field standoffs, keep assault and defense, etc. However, this requires not just a change in thinking on the part of the visi players but also the stealth players. So many times when playing my Merc I've asked the Infils I've invited to my groups to climb the walls with me and help me clear the defenders of the keeps, and they've just run off to perf lone casters who are sitting for power or health (who are already temporarily out of the fight) for LONE glory rather than clearing the way for our players on the rams below. We've also asked these same Infils in our own groups to give us ground locs for our siege and our Archers, only to be ignored. It got so bad that I ended up hotbarring short /groundsets and nearly suicided every climb just to set a /groundset for our casters, archers, and siege to /groundassist the defenders positions.

If more stealthers did what they were actually designed for, we'd hear less about all of this inane "purely for solo" and "they're an ungroupable class" bullshit and maybe see a wider range of playstyles which is much more fun than the little niches that we've put our own favourite classes and other classes into.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 12:53 PM by Lillebror

While on Merc you most likly got buffs and heals. Ofc if stealthers was grped and got buffs and heals i get your point.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 3:32 PM by Isavyr

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 6:46 AM
Sure [assassins] are squishier than a tank but certainly not as squishy as a caster.

No, they are. I'm not one to exaggerate. To make the point, I just tested using a freshly repaired hammer just now on my berserker. Targets: level 50 shadowblade and level 50 bonedancer. Result?
94 + 58 damage vs cloth.
105 + 73 damage vs leather.

In fact, the leather was slightly worse. This were roughly the same in classic too, for the few that bothered testing it. They get absolutely shredded in visible groups, and their slight utility advantages of anytime and disease doesn't compensate.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 6:46 AM
It's important to think of stealther assist not just in 8v8 roaming, where they may be of more or less value, but to also think of them in other scenarios such as open field standoffs, keep assault and defense, etc.

They already have tools in this area, and don't need further assistance. Asasssins can climb walls, archers can specialize in volley and abuse the ability to load a shot and fire on command when anything enters their field of view. They excel at stagnant battlefield positions, which open field standoffs, keep assaults, defense all feature.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 8:10 PM by Cadebrennus

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 12:53 PM
While on Merc you most likly got buffs and heals. Ofc if stealthers was grped and got buffs and heals i get your point.

I'm definitely talking about stealthers in a visi group getting the same buffs and heals as my Merc, or on Hib in a visi group as well. I didn't bother with Mid on Live because there were too many damn Mids there. I was going to go Mid here, but too damn many of them here too lol.

Edit: fixed Kids to Mids. Damn autocorrect on the phone.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 10:15 PM by daytonchambers

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 3:32 PM
No, they are. I'm not one to exaggerate. To make the point, I just tested using a freshly repaired hammer just now on my berserker. Targets: level 50 shadowblade and level 50 bonedancer. Result?
94 + 58 damage vs cloth.
105 + 73 damage vs leather.

In fact, the leather was slightly worse. This were roughly the same in classic too, for the few that bothered testing it. They get absolutely shredded in visible groups, and their slight utility advantages of anytime and disease doesn't compensate.

Leather has 10% abs. Casters get a 10% abs self buff. But after that the caster is neutral to all physical damage types whereas the leather user is weaker by 5% vs some attacks.

That's why leather is squishier.

Sat 4 Apr 2020 12:09 AM by Isavyr

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 10:15 PM
Leather has 10% abs. Casters get a 10% abs self buff. But after that the caster is neutral to all physical damage types whereas the leather user is weaker by 5% vs some attacks.

That's why leather is squishier.

Hi Dayton. Thanks for jumping in, but there's a little more to it than that. Physical mitigation is a combination of AF and absorb. This is clear to demonstrate with any caster--without the AF buff, they take significantly more damage. Here is real test just conducted to demonstrate (real numbers):
2h skald vs Spiritmaster with 10% absorb: 289 damage
2h skald vs Spiritmaster with 10% absorb + 250 AF: 188 damage

The valewalker gets a 34% absorb, but it isn't as tough as a plate-wearer because it has less effective AF. Also, Midgard leather is neutral to crush, so in the above example I posted, this wasn't a reason.

I don't know the full formula regarding AF and absorb--from what I know it's a little complicated having to do with bonuses beyond a certain point, and AF buffs being split among the pieces for damage calculation. Maybe someone else can comment.