GTAoE height restrictions - Phoenix Freeshard

So like the Animists can not put shrooms on another level as they r the groundtarget-AE-DDs should have the same restriction.
This would stop the perma-rupt while defending a keep or a tower and people could actually do something to defend.

At the moment it is kinda impossible to defend a tower or an inner keep (especially in zerg vs zerg). Please comment if you see this different.

Fri 13 Mar 2020 11:58 PM by Azuell

Ambron wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Mar 2020 10:35 PM
So like the Animists can not put shrooms on another level as they r the groundtarget-AE-DDs should have the same restriction.
This would stop the perma-rupt while defending a keep or a tower and people could actually do something to defend.

At the moment it is kinda impossible to defend a tower or an inner keep (especially in zerg vs zerg). Please comment if you see this different.

As someone who couldn't care less about GTAoE/shroom restrictions in keeps, this is probably the best/most reasonable suggestion I've read. Seems pretty fair and makes sense to me. A slight nerf to satisfy the people unhappy with GTAoE.

Just curious but why is GTAoE such a problem here? I don't remember it ever being brought up on live or even early on here. Are there just way more people who are actually using it now?

Sat 14 Mar 2020 12:10 AM by Freedomcall

Yeah, sounds like a reasonable suggestion here if we consider tower defense.
But uhm,, hm idk maybe things might be a bit different on keep battle.

Sun 15 Mar 2020 1:04 AM by Ambron

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Sat 14 Mar 2020 12:10 AM
Yeah, sounds like a reasonable suggestion here if we consider tower defense.
But uhm,, hm idk maybe things might be a bit different on keep battle.

Why is it different with keep fights? You mean the problem is that the wizards can go on wall to be on same level like animists go on tower to shroom on balcony or roof ?
Thats true but i do not have an idea to stop that ^^ Therefor you would have to increase the cooldown for gtae-dd massively so you have a higher chance to not be in a perma-rupt ^^

Mon 16 Mar 2020 2:02 PM by Horus

OK if you want to to do that take the recast delay out of GTAOE and make it able to be cast as fast as you can cast.

Here is what you want:

GTAoE: Ground target, same level as caster, low damage, 6 sec recast delay

Regular AoE: Any target within range of caster, higher damage, can be cast as fast as the caster can cast it. No delay.

Seems to me under most situation there would be no need to use GTAOE with that restriction. I'm not even sure when it would be viable? I guess attacking people on a ram through the door of a keep or tower but the damage is so low and recast delay so long it is not going to hurt anyone. All it will do is aggro one of the hundreds of pets and they will come through the door and smash down the caster.

The next person to die to a cast GTAoE will be the 1st. It's only real value is interrupting a defensive position. If you take away the ability to do that then it really has no value.

Mon 16 Mar 2020 6:02 PM by Ambron

I get ur point. But i am not sure if you have experienced a keep defense yet where u stay in lord room or on roof and get permanent rupted so ur only choice is to watch you character die. If that is how keepfights meant to be on this server, fine go ahead.

Put a higher recast timer on GTAE and you have to time your GTAE(s) to have a perma rupt or a rupt at the correct moment. So it is still useful but does not destroy every defense without any playerskill.

At the moment you just dont have to defend when there are 50+ attackers.

Mon 16 Mar 2020 9:26 PM by Enyore

Try for 14 days to make it 30 second re-cast time on GTAE... just to try it out.

Tue 17 Mar 2020 8:31 PM by Toss

Im all about Zerg playing and this whole Gtaoe thing is making me about to quit this whole game cause it is so frustrating.

Or Dev's think that playing any caster (Healer or DMG) its totally fine that you "Defend" in a tower but you cant actually cast ANY spells because you are constantly interrupted? I find it REALLY frustrating playing a Bard seeing my teammates slowly die and i cant get a single heal off because the whole Tower or inner Keep is just flaming with Gtaoe nukes. This is bullshit to say the least.

If Animists were nerfed that easy i dont see why not nerf Gtaoe. All realms have it. All will be effected, fair play.

When i "whine" about this people just reply "Working as intended" But so was Animist pets, yet they were "fixed"?

And why not "Fix" Animist pets like on Live where you have a CAP per player instead of Cap per area and this strange height cap.

Make it so all Animists can make max 6 pets in rvr? done deal... But not before this Gtaoe crap is fixed. Ruins the whole keep experience for all but RM/Wiz/Eld

Tue 17 Mar 2020 10:11 PM by Pendalith

its a fair suggestion but im not sure how it would affect the overall game

Tue 17 Mar 2020 10:36 PM by Ambron

In my daoc history i have never experienced a server like phoenix where GTAE is the best-to-have in keepfights.

And all keepfight experiences have been better yet lol.

Wed 18 Mar 2020 4:29 AM by tyrantanic

Ambron wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Mar 2020 10:35 PM
So like the Animists can not put shrooms on another level as they r the groundtarget-AE-DDs should have the same restriction.
This would stop the perma-rupt while defending a keep or a tower and people could actually do something to defend.

At the moment it is kinda impossible to defend a tower or an inner keep (especially in zerg vs zerg). Please comment if you see this different.

The is the only suggestion I've seen regarding GTAOE that seems fair. Keep fights would effectively be the same in the court yard. Less so in towers but ST and TWF are more useful in those situations once the door is down.

Sun 29 Mar 2020 9:33 PM by Ambron

Just had a Zergfight at Bold Spire. As the door opened, the whole tower was filled with GTAoEs. Nobody could cast anything to defend. That was fun. No it was not... it is just bs @GMs. Defending should be an advantage. On this server its kinda impossible.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 8:07 AM by Centenario

I think I was in that fight too, it was constant spamming of GTAOE at every level of the lord-tower. Impossible to buff/rez cast.
Plain unplayable defense because of these ground-targets that are abuse-like placed.

Mon 30 Mar 2020 8:10 AM by Lillebror

Gtaoe should not be possible to put out where your not able to enter/move. When doors down, fine. While door is whole, no gtaoe inside.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:40 AM by Ambron

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 8:10 AM
Gtaoe should not be possible to put out where your not able to enter/move. When doors down, fine. While door is whole, no gtaoe inside.

They should just do a LOS-check so u cant cast them inside. (I didnt know that it was possible casting gtae without having sight to the groundtarget as i created the post - i thought it is a common sense mechanic for gtae...)
With LOS-check we can try how it works. GTAEs would still hit through walls and be possible on every height. So at a keep defense u would have to stay away of walls.
I think height restriction must be a thing as well but i am fine with a first patch to see how it goes.

But anyhow, GMs do not seem to read suggestion-threads. Prefer to do some random events or do more customization to the server instead of bugfixing/balancing.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:51 AM by easytoremember

Ambron wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:40 AM
But anyhow, GMs do not seem to read suggestion-threads. Prefer to do some random events or do more customization to the server instead of bugfixing/balancing.

I have a feeling it has to do with the stupid shit being suggested and not their lack of looking at it

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:01 AM by Ambron

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:51 AM
Ambron wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:40 AM
But anyhow, GMs do not seem to read suggestion-threads. Prefer to do some random events or do more customization to the server instead of bugfixing/balancing.
I have a feeling it has to do with the stupid shit being suggested and not their lack of looking at it

i agree that many people just want their characters to be buffed. But it takes not much time to skip through the suggestions. And there are some serious ones.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:05 AM by easytoremember

Ambron wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:01 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:51 AM
Ambron wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:40 AM
But anyhow, GMs do not seem to read suggestion-threads. Prefer to do some random events or do more customization to the server instead of bugfixing/balancing.
I have a feeling it has to do with the stupid shit being suggested and not their lack of looking at it

i agree that many people just want their characters to be buffed. But it takes not much time to skip through the suggestions. And there are some serious ones.

I promise the thread you're posting in has been viewed multiple times by multiple mods over its lifespan

Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:05 PM by Horus

Fight fire with fire. Every realm has GTAOE.

If you really want to tweak something, make it impossible for necro shade form to set ground targets and be ground assisted on.

That is a wholly unfair advantage.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:26 PM by thirian24

I love it when people say all three realms have access to GTAoE. In mid and alb there are a lot of them, but in Hib no eldy specs void. Void is trash for everything.

This is the problem that you run in with them "helping" certain classes.

Also, ST going through every fucking floor is getting real old. That shit needs to be fixed too.

I'm not sure why some of these things are allowed to persist, meanwhile we have vanity pets. 🤣

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:10 PM by Azrael

I read a nice post in another thread (can not remember who, when and where) the person explained in a nicely way why its ok to get demolished in a tower. In short it was like something because it is just a fucking tower and not a keep and that a towers defense get more useless the more defenders are inside. You need to use another tactis if you want to stop attackers or be better organisied.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 5:54 PM by Sagz

While I agree with the GTAoE issue, on live you could raze the tower to stop the campers, if I were to guess, this was their "fix" to this. However, that being said, you should be able raise and lower your GTAoE, but you should also have to SEE your GTAoE ground target to be able to cast it.

Server is still fun, but a lot of little "bandaid" fixes are actually creating more problems than solutions.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:11 PM by gotwqqd

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:26 PM
I love it when people say all three realms have access to GTAoE. In mid and alb there are a lot of them, but in Hib no eldy specs void. Void is trash for everything.

This is the problem that you run in with them "helping" certain classes.

Also, ST going through every fucking floor is getting real old. That shit needs to be fixed too.

I'm not sure why some of these things are allowed to persist, meanwhile we have vanity pets. 🤣

What?
I’ve been on both sides and hibs have no issue with having void eldritch
Pilz regularly has assist for them

Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:12 PM by gotwqqd

Azrael wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:10 PM
I read a nice post in another thread (can not remember who, when and where) the person explained in a nicely way why its ok to get demolished in a tower. In short it was like something because it is just a fucking tower and not a keep and that a towers defense get more useless the more defenders are inside. You need to use another tactis if you want to stop attackers or be better organisied.

This
Go outside and confront enemy
If there are too many...then you should lose the tower

Thu 2 Apr 2020 12:12 AM by mattymc

The GTAOE issue ion PHOENIX is a mess, too fast, too powerful too easy to exploit...there is simply too much whining about anti camping issues --- there are more than enough fair tools EVERYONE has basically equal access to that can break a camp -=-- as it is now --- there is zero chance for even a slightly smaller to smaller force to hold a KEEP let alone a twr and THAT chance was a HUGE part of making DAOC a blast --- the fact that the devs DON'T recognize this is mind boggling.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 2:21 AM by Azrael

Sagz wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 5:54 PM
you should also have to SEE your GTAoE ground target to be able to cast it.

ok, with all the possibilities to "fix" this like reduce damage, smaller radius, longer cooldown or remove it completeley why the hell would you suggest the requirement to see the gtae. Can you or another person who suggest to see the target can explain to me why anybody should then use gtaoe instead of a normal aoe with a higher damage and no cooldown? Please tell me some situations where this would be better!!!!1111 When you see the ground you should also see the enemy standing on it???

Thu 2 Apr 2020 8:09 AM by Centenario

Azrael wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 2:21 AM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 5:54 PM
you should also have to SEE your GTAoE ground target to be able to cast it.

ok, with all the possibilities to "fix" this like reduce damage, smaller radius, longer cooldown or remove it completeley why the hell would you suggest the requirement to see the gtae. Can you or another person who suggest to see the target can explain to me why anybody should then use gtaoe instead of a normal aoe with a higher damage and no cooldown? Please tell me some situations where this would be better!!!!1111 When you see the ground you should also see the enemy standing on it???

GTAOE should be visible, greater AoE and greater range.

At the moment to only thing to change is the *visible* aspect.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 2:33 PM by mattymc

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 8:09 AM
Azrael wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 2:21 AM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 5:54 PM
you should also have to SEE your GTAoE ground target to be able to cast it.

ok, with all the possibilities to "fix" this like reduce damage, smaller radius, longer cooldown or remove it completeley why the hell would you suggest the requirement to see the gtae. Can you or another person who suggest to see the target can explain to me why anybody should then use gtaoe instead of a normal aoe with a higher damage and no cooldown? Please tell me some situations where this would be better!!!!1111 When you see the ground you should also see the enemy standing on it???

GTAOE should be visible, greater AoE and greater range.

At the moment to only thing to change is the *visible* aspect.

I dont think visible is the issue as much as frequency, frankly the concept of the spell is that it can be an interrupt out of LOS it is simply too frequent and shouldn't be height manipulated <though I can live with it depending on the frequency change>; --- it needs a much longer recast, as does volley --- similarly, volley killing siege faster than siege can kill siege is another aspect that needs an immediate change.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 8:19 PM by Ambron

Like i sad, GTAoE could still hit through walls but you should have to see ur groundtarget (LOS).
I can not believe any patch on Live where it was possible to cast GTAoE without LOS.

This server is getting more n more custom. But the GMs have to realize that PvP-balancing was better on Live lol. RAs, Class-Buffs and mechanics are quite a mess here. But they r working on a Live-Classic-Server so we r about to get rescued ^^

Thu 2 Apr 2020 9:31 PM by jwalker

I really don't get it. There should be a los check to the ground target and THEN a los check from the ground target to every opponet that would be hit by the GTAoE - that's how it works on live.

If that's too difficut here, then at least lower the z-radius from GTAoEs drastically and it needs a los check to the ground target. This way it's very difficult to hit through the ground/celing so that there are some save spaces at least.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 9:55 PM by Ambron

I remember times on Live where GTAoEs hit through walls. But that was the only advantage about it ^^ You had to have sight to the groundtarget and the spell did very low dmg and had a loong cooldown timer.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 2:23 AM by gotwqqd

LoS check for cast would completely ruin the ability
Don’t bother putting on bar

That’s the whole point of it
If you want to resist z axis and have epicenter Los check to enemy fine
Personally it’s fine as is
Maybe have a chance that it interrupts instead of 100%

Fri 3 Apr 2020 12:58 PM by Lillebror

Imo im fine with no LOS check, but it shouldnt work if you cant enter the area it effect. Like ppl said about volley, it works on roof top and maybe little down the stairs from top of towers and so on. Why on earth should it work inside of objects you cant see/enter.

Exemple from OF, im fine with standing inside mile gate between doors and nuke gtaoe up in the milegate room (because you can enter) but as long doors are still closed at an tower, it should only be possible to nuke with gtaoe on roof, balcony and some down the stairs. if door is down, then all is free.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 1:15 PM by Centenario

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 12:58 PM
Imo im fine with no LOS check, but it shouldnt work if you cant enter the area it effect. Like ppl said about volley, it works on roof top and maybe little down the stairs from top of towers and so on. Why on earth should it work inside of objects you cant see/enter.

Exemple from OF, im fine with standing inside mile gate between doors and nuke gtaoe up in the milegate room (because you can enter) but as long doors are still closed at an tower, it should only be possible to nuke with gtaoe on roof, balcony and some down the stairs. if door is down, then all is free.

The problem is that I don't think you can code the DAoC engine so precisely.

It's only is target visible? yes/no
Is height of groundtarget inferior to xxxx units? yes/no

You can't just define an area of worldbuild as "interior" and then say if player is in "interior" then ignore all GTAOE effects.

Sat 4 Apr 2020 6:56 PM by sylvynyr

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 1:15 PM
The problem is that I don't think you can code the DAoC engine so precisely.

It's only is target visible? yes/no
Is height of groundtarget inferior to xxxx units? yes/no

You can't just define an area of worldbuild as "interior" and then say if player is in "interior" then ignore all GTAOE effects.

How does the engine handle siege? Fairly certain that catapults cannot hit inside the lord room of a keep/tower.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 3:41 PM by Horus

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 6:56 PM
Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 1:15 PM
The problem is that I don't think you can code the DAoC engine so precisely.

It's only is target visible? yes/no
Is height of groundtarget inferior to xxxx units? yes/no

You can't just define an area of worldbuild as "interior" and then say if player is in "interior" then ignore all GTAOE effects.

How does the engine handle siege? Fairly certain that catapults cannot hit inside the lord room of a keep/tower.

So turn a core mechanic spell of which all realms have equal access to something that can be replaced by a catapult which is cheap, does more damage, and can be used by any class. Seems legit

While we are at it, just remove insta AE stun and mezz and make it a charge on an item anyone can buy.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:38 PM by sylvynyr

Horus wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 3:41 PM
So turn a core mechanic spell of which all realms have equal access to something that can be replaced by a catapult which is cheap, does more damage, and can be used by any class. Seems legit

While we are at it, just remove insta AE stun and mezz and make it a charge on an item anyone can buy.

What core mechanic are you referring to? The ability to attack through walls? Are you arguing that's fair play? Wasn't PBAOE changed to not do that?

You don't think getting a spec line ability that Archers have to spend 8 realm points on (Volley) is fair (and they have to maintain arrows to use)?
Does casting GTAOE cost money?
Can you reposition catapults after they are deployed?
Can you move your GTAOE out of the way so its not destroyed after getting targeted?
Does GTAOE take up bag space?
Can you forget to bring your GTAOE?
Do you have to make a trip back home for your GTAOE on a spur of the moment keep take?

NF keeps are already so poorly designed. Shouldn't defense have the advantage? Most of NF keep siege weapons are useless already; oil is essentially destroyed immediately. There's no protection on any Treb against climb walls classes, and most Trebs cannot reach outside the front door wall. Once the outer door is breached, there's almost no defense left except Lord room holdout, especially with offensive catapults and GTAOE, and especially when GTAOE can shoot through walls.

Is this really the argument?

I'd more likely argue that portable siege is too easy to acquire, carry, and maintain and that's where imbalance begins.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 2:26 PM by Horus

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:38 PM
What core mechanic are you referring to? The ability to attack through walls? Are you arguing that's fair play? Wasn't PBAOE changed to not do that?

You don't think getting a spec line ability that Archers have to spend 8 realm points on (Volley) is fair (and they have to maintain arrows to use)?
Does casting GTAOE cost money?
Can you reposition catapults after they are deployed?
Can you move your GTAOE out of the way so its not destroyed after getting targeted?
Does GTAOE take up bag space?
Can you forget to bring your GTAOE?
Do you have to make a trip back home for your GTAOE on a spur of the moment keep take?

NF keeps are already so poorly designed. Shouldn't defense have the advantage? Most of NF keep siege weapons are useless already; oil is essentially destroyed immediately. There's no protection on any Treb against climb walls classes, and most Trebs cannot reach outside the front door wall. Once the outer door is breached, there's almost no defense left except Lord room holdout, especially with offensive catapults and GTAOE, and especially when GTAOE can shoot through walls.

Is this really the argument?

I'd more likely argue that portable siege is too easy to acquire, carry, and maintain and that's where imbalance begins.

Your questions answered below:

What core mechanic are you referring to? GTAOE has always been a ground target spell with the only restrictions being range.
Does casting GTAOE cost money? No, it cost spec points which compared to the cheapness of siege is more valuable than easy to acquire gold.
Can you reposition catapults after they are deployed? No, but catapults have a far superior range. You can safely fire them well out of harms way from everything else but other siege or volley. GTAOE range is 1500 so you are well in the danger zone for siege, other gtaoe, etc..Plus that can be operated by classes with much more ability to take damage than casters. And they are not interuptable.
Can you move your GTAOE out of the way so its not destroyed after getting targeted? No, but you can move yourself and redeploy another siege for a paltry sum of gold.
Does GTAOE take up bag space? Really? Bag space?
Can you forget to bring your GTAOE? Now you are talking about the player and not the abilities/features. That is like saying "what if I don't know how to set a GT". A certain player's inability to plan or ignorance on a ability/feature is not a a variable on the balance of that ability/feature.
Do you have to make a trip back home for your GTAOE on a spur of the moment keep take? Is there a convenience factor? Sure but with teleports and the fact that most BGs are fairly organized...you know for the most part you are going to be sieging. It is not hard to stock up. Plus many time players will distribute catapults...hell you don't even have to remember, buy, or carry it yourself!

If you want to be logical, make a change to GTAOE to turn it into a catapult spell. Extend it to catapult range, make it uninterruptible, let it damage trebs, and let it do the same damage as catapults. Then the only benefit to those spec points is not to have to carry it around, spend a few gold, or be sober and not forget to buy.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 4:27 PM by sylvynyr

Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 2:26 PM
Your questions answered below:

What core mechanic are you referring to? GTAOE has always been a ground target spell with the only restrictions being range.
Does casting GTAOE cost money? No, it cost spec points which compared to the cheapness of siege is more valuable than easy to acquire gold.
Can you reposition catapults after they are deployed? No, but catapults have a far superior range. You can safely fire them well out of harms way from everything else but other siege or volley. GTAOE range is 1500 so you are well in the danger zone for siege, other gtaoe, etc..Plus that can be operated by classes with much more ability to take damage than casters. And they are not interuptable.
Can you move your GTAOE out of the way so its not destroyed after getting targeted? No, but you can move yourself and redeploy another siege for a paltry sum of gold.
Does GTAOE take up bag space? Really? Bag space?
Can you forget to bring your GTAOE? Now you are talking about the player and not the abilities/features. That is like saying "what if I don't know how to set a GT". A certain player's inability to plan or ignorance on a ability/feature is not a a variable on the balance of that ability/feature.
Do you have to make a trip back home for your GTAOE on a spur of the moment keep take? Is there a convenience factor? Sure but with teleports and the fact that most BGs are fairly organized...you know for the most part you are going to be sieging. It is not hard to stock up. Plus many time players will distribute catapults...hell you don't even have to remember, buy, or carry it yourself!

If you want to be logical, make a change to GTAOE to turn it into a catapult spell. Extend it to catapult range, make it uninterruptible, let it damage trebs, and let it do the same damage as catapults. Then the only benefit to those spec points is not to have to carry it around, spend a few gold, or be sober and not forget to buy.

When speaking of spec points, it seems strange to not consider every other aspect (other spells, increased damage, lower resists) of those spec points as they are not specifically associated with only GTAOE spells.

Not sure the original question was answered though. Is the argument that being able to attack through walls is fair play? For example, the ability to attack people in the lord room when doors are closed, no access, not even windows, is fair/appropriate?

Bag space? Yes Catapults take bag space (5.5 slots per catapult, but no weight) when crafted, or 1 slot and 15lbs if prebuilt (not sure if these are even still usable). GTAOE does not need space or have weight.
Forgetting to bring your GTAOE? You can forget to bring catapults.
Head back home for catapults? You can only carry so many and teleports are not guaranteed, particularly considering the attacker's perspective.

GTAOE shouldn't have catapult range because casters are mobile, catapults are not.
GTAOE shouldn't have catapult damage because again casters are mobile and GTAOE is on a shorter reuse timer (6 vs 9 seconds).
There's also a limitation on siege weapon deployment proximity.

There also seem to be other arguments around that catapult range is too far as is and too much damage at that.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:12 PM by Horus

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 4:27 PM
When speaking of spec points, it seems strange to not consider every other aspect (other spells, increased damage, lower resists) of those spec points as they are not specifically associated with only GTAOE spells.

Not sure the original question was answered though. Is the argument that being able to attack through walls is fair play? For example, the ability to attack people in the lord room when doors are closed, no access, not even windows, is fair/appropriate?

I will admit, I do hate getting killed by pets disregarding doors and killing you in the lord room while they are being healed without LoS from outside the door.

At least you can escape GTAOE by moving...

But that is for another thread...

Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:02 PM by Alle

Ambron wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Mar 2020 10:35 PM
So like the Animists can not put shrooms on another level as they r the groundtarget-AE-DDs should have the same restriction.
This would stop the perma-rupt while defending a keep or a tower and people could actually do something to defend.

At the moment it is kinda impossible to defend a tower or an inner keep (especially in zerg vs zerg). Please comment if you see this different.

Yes

Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:10 PM by Ambron

Horus wrote: What core mechanic are you referring to? GTAOE has always been a ground target spell with the only restrictions being range.

GTAoE used to have a LOS-check on Live. It did low damage and had a quite high cooldown. It used to be a spell to onetime rupt some ppl behind walls.
It was rarely used on Live because of that fact. But not every spell needs to be amazing. For example Confusion just helps against Theurg-Pets and its fine. It does not have to be an awesome spell.
For GTAoE you have to chose if u want a rarely used spell which is not that powerful or if you want an imbalanaced overpowered defense-destroying mechanism.
My idea was to do a height restriction so you only can use GTAoE on the same Level. I have to admit at that moment i did not know that gtaoe has no LOS-check.
Without a LOS-check it still would be broken but you would have a chance to defend.

And i think it is funny that Animists got nerft because they planted shrooms on top of the walls but GTAoE with no LOS-check is fine. Now guess what Animist r doing at a siege? Nothing special at all. They r casting a bit xD
The suggestions forum is full of people who want their class to get buffed and i understand that all u people who play GTAoE-caster having fun with it. But u have to admit that it destroys any defense. And the defender should always have the advantage. Keeps and towers were build to give an advantage !!

Tue 7 Apr 2020 1:04 AM by joshisanonymous

Ambron wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:10 PM
GTAoE used to have a LOS-check on Live. It did low damage and had a quite high cooldown. It used to be a spell to onetime rupt some ppl behind walls.
It was rarely used on Live because of that fact. But not every spell needs to be amazing. For example Confusion just helps against Theurg-Pets and its fine. It does not have to be an awesome spell.
For GTAoE you have to chose if u want a rarely used spell which is not that powerful or if you want an imbalanaced overpowered defense-destroying mechanism.
My idea was to do a height restriction so you only can use GTAoE on the same Level. I have to admit at that moment i did not know that gtaoe has no LOS-check.
Without a LOS-check it still would be broken but you would have a chance to defend.

People keep saying GTAoE had a LoS check on Live but I wish someone would show some proof of that. I played a RM 2003-2004 and used GTAoE regularly and it functioned exactly like it does here if I'm not mistaken with no LoS check. Only difference that I've noticed is that it did practically no damage at all, but I was Supp spec and there basically were no RC spec runies on my server nor Earth spec wizards nor Void spec elds. (I mean, I'm sure there were a couple here and there, but definiteily not enough to turn an entire keep into an interrupt nightmare.) There may have been a cooldown difference, also, but I can't recall.

In any case, it seems to me that the difference is not that GTAoE is more powerful here than it ever has been on Live, it's that people realized that GTAoE is effective enough to be worth speccing for, that and the Earth line for wizards isn't God awful here.

One thing that I don't think has been taken up here yet is what the game would look like without GTAoE working as it currently does. Right now, it does seem overly difficult to mount any kind of defense of a CK or tower, but would the tables completely reverse if GTAoE suddenly could only hit people on roofs, for instance? Would it become overly difficult to take a keep that's being defended? I don't know, so this is an actual question, but that would seem like a bad situation too that could lead to people avoiding defended keep as much as possible. As much as I hate GTAoE when defending, I'm sure its effectiveness gives people an incentive to try to take keeps even when they're defended.

Tue 7 Apr 2020 2:03 AM by sylvynyr

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 1:04 AM
People keep saying GTAoE had a LoS check on Live but I wish someone would show some proof of that. I played a RM 2003-2004 and used GTAoE regularly and it functioned exactly like it does here if I'm not mistaken with no LoS check. Only difference that I've noticed is that it did practically no damage at all, but I was Supp spec and there basically were no RC spec runies on my server nor Earth spec wizards nor Void spec elds. (I mean, I'm sure there were a couple here and there, but definiteily not enough to turn an entire keep into an interrupt nightmare.) There may have been a cooldown difference, also, but I can't recall.

GTAOE never had an LOS check and is described as such in the original spell descriptions. I really wanna think (nothing concrete to prove) that GTAOE was meant to provide casters a siege option since most Siege back in the day was operated by melee characters with no/little range ability and enough health to withstand being hit when the siege weapons were targeted, but LOS over/around walls like Siege equipment is quite different from LOS into sealed keep rooms, at least in my opinion.

The following was added to Phoenix on 2019-5-23 Thursday:
- ranged siege weapons now need to have an unobstructed view to the sky (4096 range into the air) to be able to hit players
- only players with an unobstructed view to the sky (4096 range into the air) can be hit by ranged siege weapons

Not convinced the first condition should apply to GTAOE, but maybe something like the second could?

Here are some links to related GTAOE speclines from October 2003:

Wizard Calefaction - https://web.archive.org/web/20031019153158/http://www.camelotherald.com/spells/line.php?line=50
Eldritch Void Mastery - https://web.archive.org/web/20031019152413/http://www.camelotherald.com:80/spells/line.php?line=4450
Runemaster Runecarving - https://web.archive.org/web/20031019145701/http://www.camelotherald.com:80/spells/line.php?line=2450

Damage (GTAOE)
Target takes damage. Damage done is of the spell's given damage type. This is an "Ground Target Area of Effect" (GTAOE) spell which can affect multiple targets in the spell's radius, and does not require a line of sight from the caster to its target. You can set a ground target by pressing the Ground Target key (default: F5) and moving the crosshairs as desired. Other players can designate a target for the caster by using the /groundassist command.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 8:02 PM by paqdizzle

Ambron wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Mar 2020 10:35 PM
So like the Animists can not put shrooms on another level as they r the groundtarget-AE-DDs should have the same restriction.
This would stop the perma-rupt while defending a keep or a tower and people could actually do something to defend.

At the moment it is kinda impossible to defend a tower or an inner keep (especially in zerg vs zerg). Please comment if you see this different.

I hear you. I'd say just make it to where you need LoS on your GT, done... Now they can only put it outside windows or doors and not morph into a building and hit everyone.
The problem is more people are playing casters because the server is more oriented towards pleasing the casters over melee or ranged physical(archery). So we're going to see more and more caster spam and what they are capable of doing the more time goes on. Hell, Look at thid right now... 95% casters 3% Hybrids 2% pure melee. Doing /serverinfo, you will see who plays what, and there is a clear and obvious reason why.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:00 PM by Painn

Just a thought, but how about removing the interrupt mechanic from gtaoe?

I played for the first time in months the other day and was blown away by how this played out. No it doesn't do much damage in a single cast, but 20 spells in a matter of about 10 seconds was insane and basically impossible to survive. They were so numerous that there wasn't a single pixel of the tower or keep that wasn't being hit.

At least give healers a chance to heal through it without getting perma interrupted.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 11:20 PM by Patron

Shroom restriction should count for gtaoe too. So 300 units in heights.

Sun 12 Apr 2020 9:23 PM by Ambron

Just had a zerg evening yesterday without much GTAoE and it was actually fun again. Actually fight in a tower, try to push-retreat and catch enemies in a bad position. Damn that was fun! Would wish Zerg PvP would be always like that.

Edit: I am writing this Edit while i am standing in DC defense in permarupt ... so much fun...

Mon 13 Apr 2020 6:21 PM by Svekt

I have posted about this several times with zero success. When they nerfed TWF they should have done the exact same thing to GTAOE.

The ground target of the GTAOE needs to do an LOS check on its target just like TWF does. If the GTAOE ground target can't see you in LOS it should not hit you. As of right now there is zero LOS check from the ground target and it will go through floors and walls. One well placed GTAOE with minimal assists can disrupt just too much of an area. Example: If you set the height just below a floor, it will hit everything the floor above and everything below it. This is largely in part to an evolution of player strategies and tactics that were less often seen on live servers. As such, it is more often used to be a fight changer in zerg vs zerg. That said, they should still be able to push a gtaoe into a closed tower or keep to interrupt etc, but not on the massive scale that its currently able to do.

Again, its very simple
LOS Check from the ground target, if you're a floor above it then it should not hit you. Just like a twf, all you would have to do is break los by running up or down a flight of stairs...

While we are at it, the same LOS check needs to be used on Static Tempest as well, because this is also chain stunning people a floor above the actual ST.

Tue 14 Apr 2020 2:02 AM by mattymc

Svekt wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Apr 2020 6:21 PM
I have posted about this several times with zero success. When they nerfed TWF they should have done the exact same thing to GTAOE.

The ground target of the GTAOE needs to do an LOS check on its target just like TWF does. If the GTAOE ground target can't see you in LOS it should not hit you. As of right now there is zero LOS check from the ground target and it will go through floors and walls. One well placed GTAOE with minimal assists can disrupt just too much of an area. Example: If you set the height just below a floor, it will hit everything the floor above and everything below it. This is largely in part to an evolution of player strategies and tactics that were less often seen on live servers. As such, it is more often used to be a fight changer in zerg vs zerg. That said, they should still be able to push a gtaoe into a closed tower or keep to interrupt etc, but not on the massive scale that its currently able to do.

Again, its very simple
LOS Check from the ground target, if you're a floor above it then it should not hit you. Just like a twf, all you would have to do is break los by running up or down a flight of stairs...

While we are at it, the same LOS check needs to be used on Static Tempest as well, because this is also chain stunning people a floor above the actual ST.

I think what your really talking about is a height check not a LOS -- more exactly a z- axis check ---- however you wanna describe it, it's important BUT it's also important to cut down the reuse time on the spell -- it's too rapid; that is how it is made better on live it simply cant be continually casted. I am really surprised that it hasn't been dealt with here since it is universally despised as a mechanic in this game.

Wed 15 Apr 2020 1:44 PM by Ambron

He is talking about a LOS check, but anyway: GMs seem to want it that way. They might do not like good keepfights.

OffTopic: Not hard to tell what they want to play on this server for themselves... Minstrel and EarthWiz. So buff the shit out of them and never nerf it. Thats what good GMs do. But hopefully there is a official Classic+SI+Housing Server coming with good GMs acutally looking for balancing the game

Wed 15 Apr 2020 5:29 PM by dbeattie71

Ambron wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Apr 2020 1:44 PM
He is talking about a LOS check, but anyway: GMs seem to want it that way. They might do not like good keepfights.

OffTopic: Not hard to tell what they want to play on this server for themselves... Minstrel and EarthWiz. So buff the shit out of them and never nerf it. Thats what good GMs do. But hopefully there is a official Classic+SI+Housing Server coming with good GMs acutally looking for balancing the game

Lol, yeah I’m sure classic whatever will have better GMs than the ones on Phoenix....doing all of this for 0$/hour.

Personally, I’d like to buy the Phoenix team a pallet of beer.

Fri 17 Apr 2020 2:47 PM by mattymc

Ambron wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Apr 2020 1:44 PM
He is talking about a LOS check, but anyway: GMs seem to want it that way. They might do not like good keepfights.

OffTopic: Not hard to tell what they want to play on this server for themselves... Minstrel and EarthWiz. So buff the shit out of them and never nerf it. Thats what good GMs do. But hopefully there is a official Classic+SI+Housing Server coming with good GMs acutally looking for balancing the game

My point being that it's a z-axis issue ---- from a general stand point GTAOE is MEANT to be a non- LOS spell; the issue is it's z-axis overspill and it's rapidity of cast making it a perma-interrupt. If one were to make it totally based on LOS, why would it ever be used ?

Sat 18 Apr 2020 3:45 AM by Svekt

mattymc wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Apr 2020 2:47 PM
Ambron wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Apr 2020 1:44 PM
He is talking about a LOS check, but anyway: GMs seem to want it that way. They might do not like good keepfights.

OffTopic: Not hard to tell what they want to play on this server for themselves... Minstrel and EarthWiz. So buff the shit out of them and never nerf it. Thats what good GMs do. But hopefully there is a official Classic+SI+Housing Server coming with good GMs acutally looking for balancing the game

My point being that it's a z-axis issue ---- from a general stand point GTAOE is MEANT to be a non- LOS spell; the issue is it's z-axis overspill and it's rapidity of cast making it a perma-interrupt. If one were to make it totally based on LOS, why would it ever be used ?

To be clear i did mean LOS check. You can still push your GTAOE through a closed door, and still cast your spell and hit whats on the other side of the door as long as your ground target has LOS on the person its hitting. The purpose of this spell is exactly that, to send a ground target through a barrier and nuke/rupt what is on the other side. To clarify, I am asking for an LOS check so that it is also not hitting a floor above the ground target.

I.E. You can push a gtaoe into a closed keep, and nuke whats on the same floor as the gtaoe spell going off but the spell should not then also hit things on a floor above and below.

Example with LOS check> Wizzy stands outside a tower and pushes a Ground target into a closed tower. He fires gtaoe spell and it should only hit targets on that first floor where the Ground target resides, it should not then also hit players out of LOS on the next floor up.

The problem is they raise the height of the ground target so that it sits just below the ceiling to hit above and below. im asking for an LOS check that confirms the actual ground target can see the person its hitting....

Sat 18 Apr 2020 3:46 AM by Svekt

and not an LOS check from caster to the ground target.... just an LOS check from the ground target to the person it intends to hit.

Sat 18 Apr 2020 7:16 PM by dougrighteous1

im probably done ever trying to defend a keep vs hibs ever again. if there's any more than 60+, im never casting a spell nor am i ever staying out of combat. one of the most frustrating experiences ever. Can't use oil because animist pets can be cast right there. Can't go to roof because animists can put shrooms up there. Then if you do show, Eld's get baseline stun, nearsight, aoe disease and gtaoe. Having a lvl 10 spell land EVERYTIME and hit for 40 damage is not fun. All pets go through doors. Catapults can hit inside keep. If they want people to zerg and play keeps and tower defense, they need to fix this bullshit. Good luck with towers. ST, Maelstrom, and TWF hitting on multiple levels also just killing you with no recourse. Zero fun. Why the fuck are there no LOS checks? Why the fuck isn't there a reasonable max range to this garbage?

Mon 20 Apr 2020 9:53 PM by Ambron

dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 7:16 PM
im probably done ever trying to defend a keep vs hibs ever again. if there's any more than 60+, im never casting a spell nor am i ever staying out of combat. one of the most frustrating experiences ever. Can't use oil because animist pets can be cast right there. Can't go to roof because animists can put shrooms up there. Then if you do show, Eld's get baseline stun, nearsight, aoe disease and gtaoe. Having a lvl 10 spell land EVERYTIME and hit for 40 damage is not fun. All pets go through doors. Catapults can hit inside keep. If they want people to zerg and play keeps and tower defense, they need to fix this bullshit. Good luck with towers. ST, Maelstrom, and TWF hitting on multiple levels also just killing you with no recourse. Zero fun. Why the fuck are there no LOS checks? Why the fuck isn't there a reasonable max range to this garbage?

Some wrong points:
Animists pet can not be placed on balcony or even the roof or a keepwall. That was patched. You have to be on about the same level as the groundtarget.
Catapults can not hit into towers or keeps. Just on the roof/balcony.

Hibs might have more GTAoE then Mids but we (yes i am a hib) always complaining about no gtaoe-void-eld in the zerg. Because there a just a few out there.
Mids seem to have kinda no gtaoe at all in there forces.
Albs just ripping every defense with their buffed-af-Earth-Wizards.
But thats not the point - i will respec my eld soon cause i have other chars for DS now - GTAoE is just destroying every fun in tower or keep fights for almost every realm. As i said before, i had an evening without any gtaoe and is was the best evening on phoenix so far. So much fun.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 10:43 PM by Expfighter

Ambron wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 9:53 PM
dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 7:16 PM
im probably done ever trying to defend a keep vs hibs ever again. if there's any more than 60+, im never casting a spell nor am i ever staying out of combat. one of the most frustrating experiences ever. Can't use oil because animist pets can be cast right there. Can't go to roof because animists can put shrooms up there. Then if you do show, Eld's get baseline stun, nearsight, aoe disease and gtaoe. Having a lvl 10 spell land EVERYTIME and hit for 40 damage is not fun. All pets go through doors. Catapults can hit inside keep. If they want people to zerg and play keeps and tower defense, they need to fix this bullshit. Good luck with towers. ST, Maelstrom, and TWF hitting on multiple levels also just killing you with no recourse. Zero fun. Why the fuck are there no LOS checks? Why the fuck isn't there a reasonable max range to this garbage?
Some wrong points:
Animists pet can not be placed on balcony or even the roof or a keepwall. That was patched. You have to be on about the same level as the groundtarget.
Catapults can not hit into towers or keeps. Just on the roof/balcony.

Hibs might have more GTAoE then Mids but we (yes i am a hib) always complaining about no gtaoe-void-eld in the zerg. Because there a just a few out there.
Mids seem to have kinda no gtaoe at all in there forces.
Albs just ripping every defense with their buffed-af-Earth-Wizards.
But thats not the point - i will respec my eld soon cause i have other chars for DS now - GTAoE is just destroying every fun in tower or keep fights for almost every realm. As i said before, i had an evening without any gtaoe and is was the best evening on phoenix so far. So much fun.

actually you are wrong @ambron, yes pets can be placed on tower and keep oil ledges and are always up there! Shrooms also hit thru floors, doors, without los and continuously

try playing alb or mid and see this for yourself

Wed 22 Apr 2020 2:16 PM by dougrighteous1

Ambron wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 9:53 PM
dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Apr 2020 7:16 PM
im probably done ever trying to defend a keep vs hibs ever again. if there's any more than 60+, im never casting a spell nor am i ever staying out of combat. one of the most frustrating experiences ever. Can't use oil because animist pets can be cast right there. Can't go to roof because animists can put shrooms up there. Then if you do show, Eld's get baseline stun, nearsight, aoe disease and gtaoe. Having a lvl 10 spell land EVERYTIME and hit for 40 damage is not fun. All pets go through doors. Catapults can hit inside keep. If they want people to zerg and play keeps and tower defense, they need to fix this bullshit. Good luck with towers. ST, Maelstrom, and TWF hitting on multiple levels also just killing you with no recourse. Zero fun. Why the fuck are there no LOS checks? Why the fuck isn't there a reasonable max range to this garbage?
Some wrong points:
Animists pet can not be placed on balcony or even the roof or a keepwall. That was patched. You have to be on about the same level as the groundtarget.
Catapults can not hit into towers or keeps. Just on the roof/balcony.

Hibs might have more GTAoE then Mids but we (yes i am a hib) always complaining about no gtaoe-void-eld in the zerg. Because there a just a few out there.
Mids seem to have kinda no gtaoe at all in there forces.
Albs just ripping every defense with their buffed-af-Earth-Wizards.
But thats not the point - i will respec my eld soon cause i have other chars for DS now - GTAoE is just destroying every fun in tower or keep fights for almost every realm. As i said before, i had an evening without any gtaoe and is was the best evening on phoenix so far. So much fun.

For the bolded part - Dont lie/spread misinformation. It's bad. For the catapults and palintones, most of the time the check works, sometimes it doesn't. I've been hit in lord room before with cata
Albs just ripping every defense with their buffed-af-Earth-Wizards. - LOL. if hibs even have 1/3 of the numbers that albs have defending a keep, there's 0% chance that keep is being taken. Hibs are absolutely ridiculous in keeps and tower defense. It's not just class, baseline stun and RA difference, it's also racial. Good luck ever clicking on a strafing lurikeen with 140 people within close proximity.

Wed 29 Apr 2020 11:51 PM by Ambron

I play animist and i get the msg that i can not place shrooms higher or lower of 300units. So i can not place shrooms on walls or down from a wall.
And i am running in zerg and do not see any shrooms on balcony/keepwall.
You can place shrooms on the balcony of the inner keep. Because you can walk up the tower of the keep and you are about the same level.

i never got hit by catapults inside a keep. But i dont want to say that there are no bugs on the server.
For example, there was a catapult shooting in the keepyard just where the gate-tunnel ends and i was standing just inside the tunnel and did not take any dmg because i had sth above my head.

Every realm should have a huge advantage while defending a keep or a tower. It is not supposed to be a deathtrap. Ask historians what keeps n towers were made for.

Offtopic: Feel free to join a run in hibzerg and trying to defend a tower vs albs. We literally just stand there and wait for our death because noone can cast anything.

Thu 30 Apr 2020 4:22 AM by Tubby

Couldnt agree more with this and I'm a earth wizard. People that talk about cooldown increase it's pointless zerg numbers will make it the same. Gtaoe should be level with your character end of it just clears up so much problem

Thu 30 Apr 2020 10:27 PM by Ambron

i just respeced my eld to gtaoe and it is just hilarious. Such a stupid ability xD Standing in safety and nuke ppl every 6sec xD And i am saying that after the "nerf".