Can we talk about Hib Amnesia?

Started 31 Jan 2019
by phixion
in RvR
Sun 17 Feb 2019 10:22 PM by Tavi
#34890
Btw, this post was about if amnesia should break speed or not. There is no need to change anything else on that ability.

The only thing that bothers me is that, if you get spotted as a small group, mids will chase you for 10~ seconds, hibs will chase u until they get u. On OF maps you cannot outrun a Hib group.

In the end its not even that bad, since there is no rezz sickness...
Mon 18 Feb 2019 12:09 AM by dansari
#34922
This isn't a small man vs 8 man getting caught issue. So many strawmans. The issue is that *one realm* has the ability to choose whether or not it wants to engage a fight at 2300 range instantaneously. (Ironically and on an unrelated note, the one realm which also controls static objectives better than either opposing realm.)
Mon 18 Feb 2019 2:26 AM by phixion
#34941
dansari wrote:
Mon 18 Feb 2019 12:09 AM
This isn't a small man vs 8 man getting caught issue. So many strawmans. The issue is that *one realm* has the ability to choose whether or not it wants to engage a fight at 2300 range instantaneously. (Ironically and on an unrelated note, the one realm which also controls static objectives better than either opposing realm.)

I come at it from a small man perspective because that's all I play, if I can't play small man then I log on my stealther.

I find myself on my stealther more and more just because I hate the fact that amnesia dictates the game so much.

I refuse to feed easy RPs to Hibs...
Phixion - 11L0 SB
Mon 18 Feb 2019 4:12 AM by pseudoethic
#34956
dansari wrote:
Sun 17 Feb 2019 9:16 AM
Drominchen wrote:
Sun 17 Feb 2019 9:08 AM
I say casted amnesia (and red charmed pets -> minstrel) are the only real counter without zephyr vs moc. I longed for a casted amnesia for years on bard! Ever tried to "interrupt" a mocing theurg or healer that have cc immunities?

Instant amnesia is no reliable rupt and no reliable counter vs anything but it is the only thing that makes it possible to get your mezz cast through on a race without dex bonus

The point is that the counters are nonexistent or out of whack.

How do you counter insta amnesia before a fight starts? SoS..

How do you counter insta amnesia vs 2 bard groups as a seer? MoC..

Regardless, the primary issue is that it drops speed. Plenty of solutions have been provided to make this more fair:

1. Change it so it doesn't drop speed.
2. Make it like every other amnesia and on a cast time (you'd enjoy that right?)
3. Drop its range to 1850 or 1500.

I don't see any logical arguments outside of "muhh hib signature" to suggest that this isn't a popular proposal.

Thought of an easy one: don't engage in an open field battle with a hib group without your instas up, or learn how to position yourself. If willing to clash, learn how to use line of sight to your advantage or adapt a scatter strategy. This embarrassingly whiny, self-indulgent need to call for a nerf because you can't figure out how albs and mids learned to fight hibs over a decade ago (with a spell that was never modified since the game released) should and will be ignored.
Mon 18 Feb 2019 6:01 AM by dansari
#34977
pseudoethic wrote:
Mon 18 Feb 2019 4:12 AM
Thought of an easy one: don't engage in an open field battle with a hib group without your instas up, or learn how to position yourself. If willing to clash, learn how to use line of sight to your advantage or adapt a scatter strategy. This embarrassingly whiny, self-indulgent need to call for a nerf because you can't figure out how albs and mids learned to fight hibs over a decade ago (with a spell that was never modified since the game released) should and will be ignored.

That's cute. "Just don't engage the 2300 insta amnesia." Please invite me to your utopia where we all play on flat ground with full knowledge of every opposing group. Your petulant dismissal shows how you truly fail to grasp any semblance of the issue, and your "hurr durr" live argument fails to acknowledge any and all other changes that have been made to the game since 2001 via creating a strawman about how "no changes have been made" to this specific, egregious imbalance over time. To catch a Hib group, the range is 1500 for Alb/Mid. When Hibs catch a group, the range is 2300. So in pure engagements alone, Hib range advantage is 53% better than Alb or Mid. Their effective safe zone gives them a giant buffer. It is in essence like Hib is playing an assassin and Alb and Mid are both playing ranged stealthers, where Hib has ample opportunity to choose the fights they want to engage in, and they don't need to worry about retaliation at the same range from the opposition.
Mon 18 Feb 2019 9:59 AM by Sepplord
#35037
Infight and during INC bards/hibs having instant amnesia is fine. It has upsides and downsides, and having that changed is a HUGE discussion, but for another topic (and i don't think changing the core infight mechanics is needed)


The onbvious imbalance is as already stated, but i want to repeat because it seems many people get sidetracked or do not realise the main problem is the imbalance in picking your fights.


ATM only hib-grps have the ability to pick their fights reliably. And if i was playing a serious 8man set-grp i would heavily consider rerolling Hib or maybe in some cases even quitting. Two equally skilled groups meet each other, but the hib-grp is the one that can always decide, "nah, not now" while Mids/Albs have to wait until the hibs want to fight. I am talking about grps that play to never die, that is always a huge target and usually not sustainable over long sessions....but to even set it as a goal you need to play hib here.
The problem also extends onto smallmans but they get zerged a lot anyways, have other priorities and often do not play as seriously as the set-groups do, so for us the problem doesn't seem as bad as it is.


Nerfing the range seems like the best solution, it doesn't change the infight usage, and has little to no effect on the realm-interaction during front-incs, while at the same time evening the playing field regarding the ability to pick your fight
Mon 18 Feb 2019 10:49 AM by Tritri
#35052
You pick your fight with instant amnesia ?

So let's say, there is a mid group that is coming in front, on a plain field and you "don't want to engage using amnesia" as you are implying if I'm not mistaken.

Bard uses AoE Amnesia on the mid group, if he's lucky and they are not sleeping, he will hit maybe max 4 targets. Then they start running away
Let's say it's a tank group so 2 heals - sham - skald - war -zerk/savage to complete, no caster whatsoever, pretty bad comp but for the sake of the argument it's really a bad group to catch people up
Bard loses speed a few seconds later and the 4 targets loses it aswell

If any of the skald - sham - heals hasn't been hit by the amnesia, the hib group can not run away

But they can still manage to disengage depending on how the fight goes, and they can even take advantage of the situation if the mid group tries to run too deep since most hib comp are based on casters that kills overextended targets.


You can easily imagine how the hib group isn't going to be able to fly away against a greater number of enemies if they decide to chase


To be honest, when you really want to avoid a fight, you avoid using amnesia to cut speed, you are far better off trying to run in speed 6 and lose them, or letting them engage and using SoS


Amnesia doesn't help running away, it helps catching up
Lilia, 50 Blademaster - 6Lx
Tritri, 50 Eldritch - 5Lx
Lilina, 50 Druid - 5Lx
< No Pain No Tartine >
Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:10 AM by Druth
#35057
Tritri wrote:
Mon 18 Feb 2019 10:49 AM
You pick your fight with instant amnesia ?

So let's say, there is a mid group that is coming in front, on a plain field and you "don't want to engage using amnesia" as you are implying if I'm not mistaken.

Bard uses AoE Amnesia on the mid group, if he's lucky and they are not sleeping, he will hit maybe max 4 targets. Then they start running away
Let's say it's a tank group so 2 heals - sham - skald - war -zerk/savage to complete, no caster whatsoever, pretty bad comp but for the sake of the argument it's really a bad group to catch people up
Bard loses speed a few seconds later and the 4 targets loses it aswell

If any of the skald - sham - heals hasn't been hit by the amnesia, the hib group can not run away

But they can still manage to disengage depending on how the fight goes, and they can even take advantage of the situation if the mid group tries to run too deep since most hib comp are based on casters that kills overextended targets.


You can easily imagine how the hib group isn't going to be able to fly away against a greater number of enemies if they decide to chase


To be honest, when you really want to avoid a fight, you avoid using amnesia to cut speed, you are far better off trying to run in speed 6 and lose them, or letting them engage and using SoS


Amnesia doesn't help running away, it helps catching up

Think it has been fairly obvious in the posts, that people complain Hibs are the only realm that has the ability to "force" a fight, if both groups are on same speed.

Hibs don't run caster groups here, they run hybrid, it seems, mixing up bm/hero/eld/chant and such.
And with 2 bards in group, or even one, it's a small loss for bard to drop speed, if you can drop speed on 3-4 targets in enemy group.

Amnesia was like this in classic, but people have better knowledge today and very few don't understand how to use it.

Insta amnesia is very strong, but you can't say "reduce range" without giving bards something else.
RvR right now, group v group, is fairly balanced, and Mids seem to dominate slightly more than Hibs, with albs being bottom.
So I think making any nerfs this significant would be a major mistake.

Is amnesia strong? Hell yeah! Please stop pretending it's not.
Does it warrant a nerf? Hell no, not unless you compensate (bard spam amnesia+360 evade, or root etc...).
Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:42 AM by Sepplord
#35066
Tritri wrote:
Mon 18 Feb 2019 10:49 AM
You pick your fight with instant amnesia ?

So let's say, there is a mid group that is coming in front, on a plain field and you "don't want to engage using amnesia" as you are implying if I'm not mistaken.

Bard uses AoE Amnesia on the mid group, if he's lucky and they are not sleeping, he will hit maybe max 4 targets. Then they start running away
Let's say it's a tank group so 2 heals - sham - skald - war -zerk/savage to complete, no caster whatsoever, pretty bad comp but for the sake of the argument it's really a bad group to catch people up
Bard loses speed a few seconds later and the 4 targets loses it aswell

If any of the skald - sham - heals hasn't been hit by the amnesia, the hib group can not run away

But they can still manage to disengage depending on how the fight goes, and they can even take advantage of the situation if the mid group tries to run too deep since most hib comp are based on casters that kills overextended targets.


You can easily imagine how the hib group isn't going to be able to fly away against a greater number of enemies if they decide to chase


To be honest, when you really want to avoid a fight, you avoid using amnesia to cut speed, you are far better off trying to run in speed 6 and lose them, or letting them engage and using SoS


Amnesia doesn't help running away, it helps catching up

uhhh...Hib's don't avoid fights by using amnesia....they avoid fights by being able to run away without getting hit by instant-2300range-speed removal
That's the whole point. A hib-grp can decide to run away, or engage a group that chose to run away with amnesia.
Albs/Hibs have nothing to catch a group running away
Mon 18 Feb 2019 12:05 PM by keen
#35075
Druth wrote:
Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:10 AM
Insta amnesia is very strong, but you can't say "reduce range" without giving bards something else.
RvR right now, group v group, is fairly balanced, and Mids seem to dominate slightly more than Hibs, with albs being bottom.
So I think making any nerfs this significant would be a major mistake.
For 8v8 a 1875 range would do nothing to the outcome of the fight. This is not old ra where you need your amnesia range for 20second fights.
8v8 fights last 3-5min here and the initial engage is far less important.

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